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OTUSA renounces AC45 Championships


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#1 pjh

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:55 AM

OTUSA Withdraws from Past AC45 Regattas
Between June 2012 and April 2013

San Francisco (Thursday, August 8, 2013) ORACLE TEAM USAs AC45 yachts have withdrawn, retrospectively, from the last four AC World Series regattas.

This follows an internal investigation led by CEO Russell Coutts, which determined that prior to racing in the regattas the yachts were modified without the permission of the Measurement Committee. The withdrawal is in spite of the fact that the modifications had no impact on the performance of the boats.

The AC45s are a class of 45-foot training yachts used in previous world circuit regattas and have not raced since Naples in April 2013. They are distinct from the AC72 yachts (72-footers) being raced in this years Louis Vuitton Cup and Americas Cup.

The modifications were made over a year ago by a small number of team members involved in the AC45 circuit, without the knowledge of management or the skippers, and without having followed standard internal procedures.

Our team is very disappointed by this turn of events, and I believe that voluntarily withdrawing from these past AC45 regattas is the appropriate corrective action, Coutts said. Going forward we remain focused on our AC72 training in preparation for the upcoming Americas Cup this September.

#2 snaerk

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:01 AM

hmmmm .... mite hav to retyre the simmily "Happy as Larry" ......



#3 Scarecrow

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:02 AM

In other words while getting sorted for the Youth AC they realised "some of these things are not like the others...." and decided it was easy to explain it now rather than later.

#4 pjh

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:03 AM

In other words while getting sorted for the Youth AC they realised "some of these things are not like the others...." and decided it was easy to explain it now rather than later.


+1

#5 Enzedel 92

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:05 AM

OTUSA Withdraws from Past AC45 Regattas
Between June 2012 and April 2013

San Francisco (Thursday, August 8, 2013) ORACLE TEAM USAs AC45 yachts have withdrawn, retrospectively, from the last four AC World Series regattas.

This follows an internal investigation led by CEO Russell Coutts, which determined that prior to racing in the regattas the yachts were modified without the permission of the Measurement Committee. The withdrawal is in spite of the fact that the modifications had no impact on the performance of the boats.

The AC45s are a class of 45-foot training yachts used in previous world circuit regattas and have not raced since Naples in April 2013. They are distinct from the AC72 yachts (72-footers) being raced in this years Louis Vuitton Cup and Americas Cup.

The modifications were made over a year ago by a small number of team members involved in the AC45 circuit, without the knowledge of management or the skippers, and without having followed standard internal procedures.

Our team is very disappointed by this turn of events, and I believe that voluntarily withdrawing from these past AC45 regattas is the appropriate corrective action, Coutts said. Going forward we remain focused on our AC72 training in preparation for the upcoming Americas Cup this September.

 

okaywtfreaction.gif



#6 uflux

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:05 AM

oops...



#7 tortfeaser

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:12 AM

Brickbats for the management failure to make sure everything's in line,

bouquets for standing up and confessing and making it right by giving whatever they got back.

Wonder what the mods were and why anyone would bother making them if they weren't performance enhancing?

#8 jc172528

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:20 AM

"The withdrawal is in spite of the fact that the modifications had no impact on the performance of the boats."

 

Ummmm, now where have I heard that before ............... <_<



#9 snaerk

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:26 AM

enhanced relyabillity? (which enhances proberbillity of finnishing, hents winning)



#10 Nutta

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:28 AM

Just checking, but is it the start of April in the US today?



#11 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:33 AM

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.

 

No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.



#12 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:50 AM

The ACWS never had any bearing on the Cup itself - no indication of form, no indication of numbers, nothing related to performance.

 

The only common thread seems to be that OR can't maintain a clean record with regard to the rules.



#13 maninsanfran

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:54 AM

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.

 

No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

Yup, no conspiracy, that is well down the list from out and out cheating. Which is clearly what we have here



#14 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:57 AM

I would give OR/BAR credit for doing the right thing here.

 

It's not a good look but they have acted responsibly.



#15 maninsanfran

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:01 AM

I would give OR/BAR credit for doing the right thing here.

 

It's not a good look but they have acted responsibly.

 

They were caught cheating and given the option to announce it themselves or be outed. They chose the former. Responsible doesn't really come in to it does it?



#16 Qman

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:02 AM

lol that is funny,  wonder if they will have a new acws medal ceremony,  pretty funny stuff, wonder if they where enhanced non compliant rudders!!!



#17 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:06 AM

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.

 

No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

Yup, no conspiracy, that is well down the list from out and out cheating. Which is clearly what we have here

 

Ummm, my point was that there was most likely no intention to cheat but rather that they are just numb nuts.

You honestly think anyone would cheat in something as irrelevant as the ACWS?



#18 yachtyakka

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:07 AM

cheating bastards,



#19 ezyb

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:07 AM

I just assumed this was an article from the Onion when I first read it.  I don't think anyone will argue it was a deliberate effort by OR to cheat given the ACWS stopped being relevant a long time ago, but it does beg the question as to what the hell is going on within the team that something like this could go unnoticed.



#20 like

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:09 AM

I would give OR/BAR credit for doing the right thing here.

 

It's not a good look but they have acted responsibly.

 

They were caught cheating and given the option to announce it themselves or be outed. They chose the former. Responsible doesn't really come in to it does it?

That's what it looks like to me too. Zero credit for that.  Just looks and smells plain dodgy.



#21 Nutta

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:09 AM

I would give OR/BAR credit for doing the right thing here.

 

It's not a good look but they have acted responsibly.

 

They were caught cheating and given the option to announce it themselves or be outed. They chose the former. Responsible doesn't really come in to it does it?

 

Fairly bold claim there. Evidence?



#22 maninsanfran

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:18 AM

 

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.

 

No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

Yup, no conspiracy, that is well down the list from out and out cheating. Which is clearly what we have here

 

Ummm, my point was that there was most likely no intention to cheat but rather that they are just numb nuts.

You honestly think anyone would cheat in something as irrelevant as the ACWS?

/?

There was clearly intention to cheat. They put ballast in the center of the boat and took it out from the hulls. thats deliberate cheating no?



#23 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:21 AM

 

 

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.

 

No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

Yup, no conspiracy, that is well down the list from out and out cheating. Which is clearly what we have here

 

Ummm, my point was that there was most likely no intention to cheat but rather that they are just numb nuts.

You honestly think anyone would cheat in something as irrelevant as the ACWS?

/?

There was clearly intention to cheat. They put ballast in the center of the boat and took it out from the hulls. thats deliberate cheating no?

 

 

Ummm, no. The most reasonable explanation is that they modded the boats for testing purposes and then forgot to undo the mods.

What you are suggesting is analgous to Ben Johnson taking steroids to enhance his performance in a "fun run".



#24 sclarke

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:25 AM

Seems like the Bald faced cheating thread is about to light up again!



#25 maninsanfran

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:25 AM

if they modded the boats for testing and forgot to change them, no probs, thats ok. But if they modded the boats and competed in the ACWS, they cheated. They have withdrawn from the ACWS. Seems to me they have admitted cheating no?



#26 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:28 AM

Cheated yes, deliberate no.

My point was and is that they fucked up and caused them to race in non-compliant boats.

This makes this incompetent and having technically cheated. It does not make them deliberate cheaters.



#27 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:30 AM

Seems like the Bald faced cheating thread is about to light up again!

 

Nothing to see here IMO.

I had my pitchfork out and torch well and truly lit over rudder gate, but I won't be joining this crusade.



#28 sclarke

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:30 AM

Imagine if this happened after the AC final. They got around the measurers once, imagine if Oracle win the Cup only to voluntarily withdraw next year?



#29 maninsanfran

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:31 AM

Cheated yes, deliberate no.

My point was and is that they fucked up and caused them to race in non-compliant boats.

This makes this incompetent and having technically cheated. It does not make them deliberate cheaters.

I forgot that EPO isnt legal when im competing?



#30 tortfeaser

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:35 AM

 

<snip>
 
They put ballast in the center of the boat and took it out from the hulls.

</snip>

Got link? 

#31 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:36 AM

Cheated yes, deliberate no.

My point was and is that they fucked up and caused them to race in non-compliant boats.

This makes this incompetent and having technically cheated. It does not make them deliberate cheaters.

I forgot that EPO isnt legal when im competing?

 

Thats not you with a different logon is it Indio?

Certainly you are being as obtuse as he is.

 

Cheating is largely a risk vs reward thing.

The point is that the ACWS was an irrelevant side show that none of the important teams gave a fuck about.

Therefore it defies logic that they would deliberately cheat, given how worthless the ACWS is.



#32 Nutta

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:45 AM

Seems like the Bald faced cheating thread is about to light up again!

 

Except the Kiwis seem to be going to bat for RC and OR on this one... strange old world...



#33 WetHog

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:47 AM

Regardless of who, what, how and when, this is another notch on the negative side for AC34.  Very disappointing.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#34 sclarke

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:48 AM

 

Cheated yes, deliberate no.

My point was and is that they fucked up and caused them to race in non-compliant boats.

This makes this incompetent and having technically cheated. It does not make them deliberate cheaters.

I forgot that EPO isnt legal when im competing?

 

Thats not you with a different logon is it Indio?

Certainly you are being as obtuse as he is.

 

Cheating is largely a risk vs reward thing.

The point is that the ACWS was an irrelevant side show that none of the important teams gave a fuck about.

Therefore it defies logic that they would deliberately cheat, given how worthless the ACWS is.

I think the only team the ACWS was worthless to was ETNZ and they have proven that it was. But Oracle clearly found it worthwhile because in their interview and videos they always go back to the fact that they won the world series. Its still relevant to them. Luna Rossa are the same, they had two victories in Italy that they are very proud of. Artemis (Even though TH is now gone) have only just finished sailing their 45. It is irrelevant in terms of the Americas Cup, but not in terms how important the important teams felt about it.



#35 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:49 AM

Regardless of who, what, how and when, this is another notch on the negative side for AC34.  Very disappointing.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

I disagree Hoggie, nothing to do with the AC. Just one team.

Making such a monumental fuck up smacks of incompetence on OR's part, but it doesn't taint the AC as a whole IMO.



#36 Qman

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:49 AM

It wasnt the ACWS that was the problem it was the timing, it was unrealistic to have the ACWS so close to the AC itself.  The previous season was awesome and well supported.    I think the ACWS or similar will continue, if the AC remains on cats.  but i think there needs to be some consolidation.  The extreme series sort of evolved into the ACWS (although extreme cats still remained)  and it will probably evolve again, presumably to foiling AC45s.  I expect the Youth Americas cup will be a great event also to showcase the AC45 concept.  



#37 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:52 AM

 

 

Cheated yes, deliberate no.

My point was and is that they fucked up and caused them to race in non-compliant boats.

This makes this incompetent and having technically cheated. It does not make them deliberate cheaters.

I forgot that EPO isnt legal when im competing?

 

Thats not you with a different logon is it Indio?

Certainly you are being as obtuse as he is.

 

Cheating is largely a risk vs reward thing.

The point is that the ACWS was an irrelevant side show that none of the important teams gave a fuck about.

Therefore it defies logic that they would deliberately cheat, given how worthless the ACWS is.

I think the only team the ACWS was worthless to was ETNZ and they have proven that it was. But Oracle clearly found it worthwhile because in their interview and videos they always go back to the fact that they won the world series. Its still relevant to them. Luna Rossa are the same, they had two victories in Italy that they are very proud of. Artemis (Even though TH is now gone) have only just finished sailing their 45. It is irrelevant in terms of the Americas Cup, but not in terms how important the important teams felt about it.

 

Oracle crowed on about it because it was their game, so they had to talk it up.

LR crowed about winning because it was like *yay* we won something.

 

But the only thing those teams actually gave a fuck about was the AC itself.



#38 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:52 AM

cheating bastards,

 

I just know you're laughing when you wrote that. It's great fun when everyone sees an opportunity to put the boot in.
 

In this case, because of the appropriate action they took, and because the ACWS didn't really mean shit to anyone I don't think it's a big deal.

 

(Good luck if you're SSANZ sailing this weekend yakka)



#39 sclarke

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:13 AM

Ya gotta feel for Russell Coutts though, I mean the guy has given it his all to promote Oracle Racing as a credible and worthwhile defender. He was forced to defend them when Luna Rossa and ETNZ implied they were gaining a competitive advantage from the safety recs, he's done his darndest to promote the ACWS as a viable sustainable pre-americas cup regatta. IMO genuinely tried to put on a fantastic Americas Cup, then it all comes crashing down, only 3 challengers (one realistic threat) a major setback in their capsize, a fatal accident, an up to this point failure of a Louis Vuitton Cup, and now the one shining light Oracle had and hes been forced to withdraw because some bonehead in the back forgot to mention he'd modified their raceboats! Lesson learned hopefully. Stick to sailing because you're still the most successful skipper in Americas cup history, and no one can take that away from you.



#40 WetHog

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:22 AM

I disagree Hoggie, nothing to do with the AC. Just one team.

Making such a monumental fuck up smacks of incompetence on OR's part, but it doesn't taint the AC as a whole IMO.

 

Sure the ACWS doesn't factor into AC34 directly, but it was a tool used to introduce multihulls to AC teams and fans.  It was also used to promote the Summer of Sailing that is currently not living up to expectations.  So yes, IMO, it is another negative for AC34.

 

Also, I was there at Newport.  I spent vacation days and money to watch the racing live and watch my favorite AC team, Oracle Racing, take the top 2 match racing spots.

 

2j10e2c.jpg

 

4tm3ic.jpg

 

Now I feel cheated. 

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#41 floater

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:24 AM

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.
 
No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

In some one design classes - tweaks large and small are part of the game. Boys will be boys.

#42 Barnyb

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:29 AM

If they were re moded and didn't measure as 45's

 

Then they are surrogates!



#43 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:30 AM

I disagree Hoggie, nothing to do with the AC. Just one team.

Making such a monumental fuck up smacks of incompetence on OR's part, but it doesn't taint the AC as a whole IMO.

 

Sure the ACWS doesn't factor into AC34 directly, but it was a tool used to introduce multihulls to AC teams and fans.  It was also used to promote the Summer of Sailing that is currently not living up to expectations.  So yes, IMO, it is another negative for AC34.

 

Also, I was there at Newport.  I spent vacation days and money to watch the racing live and watch my favorite AC team, Oracle Racing, take the top 2 match racing spots.

 

2j10e2c.jpg

 

4tm3ic.jpg

 

Now I feel cheated. 

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Why feel cheated? Presumably you paid your money and had a fucking good time. Nothing changes that.



#44 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:32 AM

If they were re moded and didn't measure as 45's

 

Then they are surrogates!

 

Ooooh! Now THATS a point!

Fuck me, thats actually potentially dangerous for them.

 

However, if they didn't change the hull shape (and it doesn't sound like they did), then this should not be a problem for them.



#45 Boybland

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:48 AM

Seems like the Bald faced cheating thread is about to light up again!

 

Except the Kiwis seem to be going to bat for RC and OR on this one... strange old world...

 

That's because kiwis have always had their eyes on the prize, if it doesn't impact our chances of winning the AC we simply aren't worried about it :)

Besides it all seems a bit like water under the bridge to me, the AC45's were great fun to watch but largely irrelevant, hardly seems worth getting in knots about.



#46 kiwi_jon

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:51 AM

Brickbats for the management failure to make sure everything's in line,

bouquets for standing up and confessing and making it right by giving whatever they got back.

Wonder what the mods were and why anyone would bother making them if they weren't performance enhancing?

 

Hang on. ORTUSA were protested by the Regatta Director and the Measurement Committee for the AC45 modifications. That was 4 days ago. ORTUSA asked the jury to keep the protest confidential. The jury was investigating and are looking RRSAC rule 60.

 

The MC concluded its report with 'The modifications appear to be intentional efforts to circumvent the limitations of the AC45 Class Rule, and are therefore serious in nature.'

 

Coutts has only done what the jury would have ruled anyway.

 

Ainslie's AC45 was also illegally modified.



#47 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:54 AM

Heres the Sail World article on it

 

http://www.sail-worl...-by-Jury/113010



#48 Monster Mash

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:58 AM

I'm waiting for IM to chime in a declare it was purely for safety reasons. B)



#49 snaerk

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:21 AM

hmm - wunts agen, RC duz not exacktly smell of rozers in this sad afear

 

The gap betwene his press releese and the rele sitewayshun is rather trubbling, and i hav sadly desidered to forgo SR's ecksplanayshuns for theez diskrepantsees, becoz thay mayk sutch depressing reeding.



#50 Glenn

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:21 AM

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10910582

<snip>
 
They put ballast in the center of the boat and took it out from the hulls.

</snip>

Got link? 


#51 Nutta

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:21 AM

If they were re moded and didn't measure as 45's

 

Then they are surrogates!

 

Oooooo......

 

Looking out for JN31 arguing that they surrogates following on from this one: http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN096.pdf

 

2. The RD’s Application was based on an attached report from the Measurement Committee (MC), which alleged that an unauthorised modification had been made to the three AC45 Yachts, by adding weight to the forward king post in contravention of AC45 Class Rule C1.5, which prohibits modification to components listed in Class Rule C1.2. The ‘forward king post’ is included in the component list in Class Rule C1.2.

 

3. The MC’s Report concluded with the phrase ‘The modifications appear to be intentional efforts to circumvent the limitations of the AC45 class rule, and are therefore serious in nature’.



#52 bens

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:31 AM

Takes them 3 months to come out with this, ummmm, and who pays the jury?

#53 snaerk

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:37 AM

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.
 
No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

In some one design classes - tweaks large and small are part of the game. Boys will be boys.

 

M Bertarellis motto



#54 jaysper

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:43 AM

 

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.
 
No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

In some one design classes - tweaks large and small are part of the game. Boys will be boys.

 

M Bertarellis motto

 

Think that comparison is pretty over the top Snaerk



#55 rule69

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:06 AM

If was just incompetence it adds to the evidence that OR has deep management problems. If it was deliberate it is both disappointing and pathetic. I hope the investigation finds some mitigating facts but at first glance this looks horrible.



#56 dogwatch

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:16 AM

I don't think it's a big deal.

Remember when Coutts said he thought that in the long run, the ACWS would become more important than the AC? From that point of view, it's a big deal.

As far as what happens to the ACWS in the AC35 cycle, it's not a good look. On the whole, in other "grand-prix" sports, you don't get a winning team withdrawing a few months after the last of the champagne was drunk. I'm pretty crap at the sports questions on club quiz night but can anyone else think of an example in another sport?

#57 Landlockedlubber

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:22 AM

I don't think it's a big deal.

Remember when Coutts said he thought that in the long run, the ACWS would become more important than the AC? From that point of view, it's a big deal.

As far as what happens to the ACWS in the AC35 cycle, it's not a good look. On the whole, in other "grand-prix" sports, you don't get a winning team withdrawing a few months after the last of the champagne was drunk. I'm pretty crap at the sports questions on club quiz night but can anyone else think of an example in another sport?

Jones, Armstrong, etc etc 



#58 dogwatch

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:29 AM

If they were re moded and didn't measure as 45's
 
Then they are surrogates!

Nice try but I don't think so.

Surrogate Yacht means any catamaran yacht that is greater than 10 meters LOA,
except that an AC45 Yacht whose “platform” (external shape of the hulls, and the
crossbeams) comply with the AC45 Class Rule shall not be a Surrogate Yacht.

 

The fun protest would be under protocol 45.2. A certain team was fined for not producing an AC45 for a "special event". Strictly speaking, it seems, OR didn't do so either.



#59 kiwi_jon

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:31 AM

hmm - wunts agen, RC duz not exacktly smell of rozers in this sad afear

 

The gap betwene his press releese and the rele sitewayshun is rather trubbling, and i hav sadly desidered to forgo SR's ecksplanayshuns for theez diskrepantsees, becoz thay mayk sutch depressing reeding.

 

It's called mitigating damage. It won't be a good look if ORTUSA are hit by the Jury with a rule 69 ( Bringing the America's Cup into Disrepute )



#60 dogwatch

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:31 AM

 

I don't think it's a big deal.

Remember when Coutts said he thought that in the long run, the ACWS would become more important than the AC? From that point of view, it's a big deal.

As far as what happens to the ACWS in the AC35 cycle, it's not a good look. On the whole, in other "grand-prix" sports, you don't get a winning team withdrawing a few months after the last of the champagne was drunk. I'm pretty crap at the sports questions on club quiz night but can anyone else think of an example in another sport?

Jones, Armstrong, etc etc 

 

Doping, fair enough. What about an example of using illegal equipment?



#61 amc

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:32 AM

Classic :D Then again if it isn't an AC 45 it IS a surrogate.

 

 

"The fun protest would be under protocol 45.2. A certain team was fined for not producing an AC45 for a "special event". Strictly speaking, it seems, OR didn't do so either."



#62 K38BOB

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:33 AM

Heres the Sail World article on it

 

http://www.sail-worl...-by-Jury/113010

"It is not clear how the addition of an additional 2.5kg of weight to the kingpost on the AC45's was discovered. But it is most likely to have been during scrutineering and boat equalistion ahead of the Red Bull Youth America's Cup."



#63 kiwi_jon

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:34 AM

If they were re moded and didn't measure as 45's
 
Then they are surrogates!

Nice try but I don't think so.

Surrogate Yacht means any catamaran yacht that is greater than 10 meters LOA,
except that an AC45 Yacht whose “platform” (external shape of the hulls, and the
crossbeams) comply with the AC45 Class Rule shall not be a Surrogate Yacht.

 

The fun protest would be under protocol 45.2. A certain team was fined for not producing an AC45 for a "special event". Strictly speaking, it seems, OR didn't do so either.

 

 

According to the protest it was the Kingpost that was modified. The kingpost is part of the front cross beam.



#64 snaerk

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:39 AM

hmm - wunts agen, RC duz not exacktly smell of rozers in this sad afear

 

The gap betwene his press releese and the rele sitewayshun is rather trubbling, and i hav sadly desidered to forgo SR's ecksplanayshuns for theez diskrepantsees, becoz thay mayk sutch depressing reeding.

 

It's called mitigating damage. It won't be a good look if ORTUSA are hit by the Jury with a rule 69 ( Bringing the America's Cup into Disrepute )

 

RCs press release woud only hav mitigated damage if he coud be shore the reel facts woud never emerdje

 

(witch in itself maeks him a weezel of the ferst worter)

 

Given that he must hav noan they woud emerdje, WHOT WOZ HE THINKING?



#65 k-f-u

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:39 AM

...

Wonder what the mods were and why anyone would bother making them if they weren't performance enhancing?



Beer can holders?! The Eski Jimmy was talking about on facebook?!

#66 snaerk

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:40 AM

 

 

*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.
 
No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

In some one design classes - tweaks large and small are part of the game. Boys will be boys.

 

M Bertarellis motto

 

Think that comparison is pretty over the top Snaerk

 

Im not comparing the behayvyore

Im comparing the exkewse



#67 dun

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:44 AM

hmmm, isn't there some cleanup aisle 45 here? seems to be missing.

i'm sure the weight made the boats Safer



#68 amc

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:49 AM

Was just on tvnz news also mentioned rule 69 protest. GD interviewed along with Peter Lester. Not happy!



#69 amc

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:51 AM

It looked well forward of the beam on tv. On the prod.

 

If they were re moded and didn't measure as 45's
 
Then they are surrogates!

Nice try but I don't think so.

Surrogate Yacht means any catamaran yacht that is greater than 10 meters LOA,
except that an AC45 Yacht whose “platform” (external shape of the hulls, and the
crossbeams) comply with the AC45 Class Rule shall not be a Surrogate Yacht.

 

The fun protest would be under protocol 45.2. A certain team was fined for not producing an AC45 for a "special event". Strictly speaking, it seems, OR didn't do so either.

 

 

According to the protest it was the Kingpost that was modified. The kingpost is part of the front cross beam.



#70 Barnyb

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:51 AM

Big story on TV NZ sport (second story after an All Black article  B) )

 

MC were reviewing all AC45's to make sure they were all equal

 

Found extra weight in the forward king post on 3 yachts.

 

Lester and GD saying very serious - a deliberate attempt to cheat

 

Trick now is to find those that made changes - and importantly those that gave the orders to make the changes

 

 

I think this will me a major talking point for some time and will have serious consequences for the MC when they measure OR72. OR are now on notice. Those rudders, weight, foils... had better be within the rules or there is very good grounds for OR disqualification



#71 alibee

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:52 AM

To all the muppets saying "It's no biggie, they confessed" or those plying the 'management barely knew about it' line... WTF?

 

What about all of the members of the teams that were robbed of their moment in the spotlight? Hundreds of people that will have poured their life and soul into the program for months or more only to have to get back on the plane with an "oh well, we tried our best" while OTUSA covered themselves in champagne and glory. Fuck that, you get caught cheating you don't get to walk away with your head held high no matter who you are. Yes, some of the team members won't have know but that's irrelevant, it's a team sport and your actions are those of a single entity.

 

They should definitely hold the ceremony again and OTUSA should fund all members of the real winning teams that want to attend to be able to do so. OTUSA should also attend, en masse, and be genuinely gracious to the those that beat them. Many people do this shit for the few moments of glory that they will remember for the rest of their lives, rob them of that and you need to be taught not to do it again.



#72 k-f-u

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:58 AM

...

Wonder what the mods were and why anyone would bother making them if they weren't performance enhancing?



Beer can holders?! The Eski Jimmy was talking about on facebook?!

 

Hang on, it's 2.5kg?! That's basically five cans of beer, right? Water-cooled under the kingpost. For a crew of five, that makes... perfect sense  :rolleyes:



#73 southseasbill

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:59 AM

Jeremy Clarkson will be happy. The rental car won after all.



#74 southseasbill

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:01 AM

Was just on tvnz news also mentioned rule 69 protest. GD interviewed along with Peter Lester. Not happy!

 

 

The Sail World article says:

 

Despite the withdrawal, the International Jury and Measurement Committee have taken the matter seriously and launched an investigation under Rule 69 of the International Sailing Federation Racing Rules, which relates to Allegations of Gross Misconduct.



#75 Sailbydate

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:02 AM

hmmm, isn't there some cleanup aisle 45 here? seems to be missing.

i'm sure the weight made the boats Safer

Cue, Stinger in 4, 3, 2, 1......  :)



#76 Liquid Assett NZ

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:02 AM

Lol what will next week bring. unbelievable really

#77 wraith

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:05 AM

I havent read anywhere that the boats were 2.5kg overweight.  Maybe the subtext is that 2.5kg was removed from a more sensitive area?

 

Perhaps it is a demonstration of Dave Brailsford's 'aggregation of marginal gains'.



#78 Sailbydate

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:05 AM

If they were re moded and didn't measure as 45's
 
Then they are surrogates!

Nice try but I don't think so.

Surrogate Yacht means any catamaran yacht that is greater than 10 meters LOA,
except that an AC45 Yacht whose “platform” (external shape of the hulls, and the
crossbeams) comply with the AC45 Class Rule shall not be a Surrogate Yacht.

 

The fun protest would be under protocol 45.2. A certain team was fined for not producing an AC45 for a "special event". Strictly speaking, it seems, OR didn't do so either.

Well played, sir. 



#79 Liquid Assett NZ

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:06 AM

So who wins now ?

#80 tortfeaser

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:07 AM

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10910582

<snip>
 
They put ballast in the center of the boat and took it out from the hulls.

</snip>

Got link?

 
 

Heres the Sail World article on it
 
http://www.sail-worl...-by-Jury/113010

Thanks for info. Have seen the jury notice now.

#81 southseasbill

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:07 AM

So who wins now ?

 

The Toyota



#82 Sailbydate

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:08 AM

The AC34 RD had better make sure those OTUSA, AC72 measurement certificates are correct before September.  :)



#83 Liquid Assett NZ

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:19 AM

The more I dwell on this the worse it becomes to me this is major and is actually pretty fucking shocking.

#84 Danno

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:21 AM

This is fucking disgraceful! And sorry Russell, this is your team, you hired them and its completely your responsibility!

There is nothing accidental about this as some initial posts have suggested. 

This is simply a case of the defender of the americas cup deliberately cheating to make their boats faster. 

Reminds me of Admirals Cup 1987 when Thomas Friese and many of his crew were banned for several years.



#85 winchfodder

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:24 AM

If it was an attempt to deliberately improve performance and was concealed from the management of the team and other AC45 teams (as opposed to a modification to, say, repair a part that was showing signs of degradation and needed upgrading- remember OTUSA have sailed their AC45's more than any other team) then this is far more serious than some of the posters here want to admit. This would definitely be a Rule 69 and we should expect OTUSA to dismiss the parties involved (as they might also be involved with the two OR AC72's).

 

Certainly very embarrrasing for RC, IM must also be fuming and and LE will not be happy.



#86 Danno

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:31 AM

And what spin is this from ACEA

"This follows an internal investigation led by CEO Russell Coutts, which determined that prior to racing in the regattas the yachts were modified without the permission of the Measurement Committee. The withdrawal is in spite of the fact that the modifications had no impact on the performance of the boats."

How many lies can you count in this statement?

1. This was found by Russells internal investigation - Bullshit, they were busted by the MC when measuring the boats in for the Redbull youth series

2. This had no impact on performance - Bullshit, they modified them illegally to make them faster - more weight forward.

 

I'm sorry, you cant just get busted cheating and withdraw and think everything will be OK. Lance, are you out there?



#87 dogwatch

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:35 AM

^

 

Enquiring minds would like to know why you'd bolt lead to your boat, contrary to class rules, if "the modifications had no impact on the performance of the boats." Decorative effect, perhaps?

 

Every time Coutts opens his mouth, I'm waiting for the lie to slip out. It seems he can't help himself.



#88 tnz92

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:42 AM

Bloody cheaters...can they be banned from sailing? how would this impact to this current AC???



#89 winchfodder

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:42 AM

^

 

Enquiring minds would like to know why you'd bolt lead to your boat, contrary to class rules, if "the modifications had no impact on the performance of the boats." Decorative effect, perhaps?

 

Every time Coutts opens his mouth, I'm waiting for the lie to slip out. It seems he can't help himself.

 

Before rushing into conclusions we do need to know more details. It could have just been the maintenacne team reinforcing the kingpost as OR's three AC45's were working harder than most as opposed to an attempt to conceal lead inside the post to improve performance. The IJ report should make it clear and any parties involved duly punished if guilty.



#90 Danno

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:51 AM

^

 

Enquiring minds would like to know why you'd bolt lead to your boat, contrary to class rules, if "the modifications had no impact on the performance of the boats." Decorative effect, perhaps?

 

Every time Coutts opens his mouth, I'm waiting for the lie to slip out. It seems he can't help himself.

 

Before rushing into conclusions we do need to know more details. It could have just been the maintenacne team reinforcing the kingpost as OR's three AC45's were working harder than most as opposed to an attempt to conceal lead inside the post to improve performance. The IJ report should make it clear and any parties involved duly punished if guilty.

With lead? Do you seriously believe that yourself?



#91 NZL3481

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:51 AM

I'm surprised he didn't request an interview with Oprah to tell all.



#92 Yo..V

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:51 AM

Ok -

 

Oracle line up against Artemis and think crap these guys are fast, Then the Prada camp arse fuck Artemis - Oracle, to save face in the AC need to get thier current skippers and crew banned so they then have to put up a second string non foiling crew for AC final against Team NZ , -

 

How ??

 

Just "arrange" to get weight added to the 45's Both skippers and cew are in for a baning -

 

Coutts comes clean and says sorry we withdraw from the 45 series - He thinks he's off the hook for  not being able to design a fast AC 72  under their own rules

 

Ainsley says wtf I just hired the boat, I'll do what I can to help - He cops a few months ban and is still a Sir hero

 

Larry says Fuck the Aussie ginga who crashed my first boat, He can swing Spit's takes a multi year ban and misses the next AC

 

 AC goes to  - New Zealand

 

---

 

No youre thinking ??  - Ok then think along those lines,  This sort of shit aint out of the qestion



#93 Indio

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:53 AM

 

Cheated yes, deliberate no.

My point was and is that they fucked up and caused them to race in non-compliant boats.

This makes this incompetent and having technically cheated. It does not make them deliberate cheaters.

I forgot that EPO isnt legal when im competing?

 

Thats not you with a different logon is it Indio?

Certainly you are being as obtuse as he is.

 

Cheating is largely a risk vs reward thing.

The point is that the ACWS was an irrelevant side show that none of the important teams gave a fuck about.

Therefore it defies logic that they would deliberately cheat, given how worthless the ACWS is.

Which part of fucking cheating don't you understand, you fence-sitting monkey!!?



#94 NZL3481

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:56 AM

Brings a rather new and interesting perspective to 'safety recommendations', now doesn't it?



#95 knarly34

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:59 AM

This is gonna cost this cup some serious street cred capital. Why does this always happen! I just hope someone can win it ie GD and restore its tattered dignity that has plagued it since the billionaires starting playing with it.

#96 jonsailor

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:01 AM

Brings a rather new and interesting perspective to 'safety recommendations', now doesn't it?

 

it never was about safety, suits one team only!!

Spinray is in hiding



#97 Sailbydate

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:03 AM

Brings a rather new and interesting perspective to 'safety recommendations', now doesn't it?

Funny you should say that, NZL3481. I was thinking something similar. Don't mention it to Stinger, for fucks sake.  :D



#98 JJD

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:13 AM


 


*yawn* who cares about the '45s anyway? Certainly not me.
 
No conspiracy here, but it does smack of pretty fucking incompetent.

In some one design classes - tweaks large and small are part of the game. Boys will be boys.
 
M Bertarellis motto
 
Think that comparison is pretty over the top Snaerk

OMFG Jays, you are starting tonsound like SWs. I dont like tonsee good men go down so please refrain for a hour with a hot cuppa.

#99 Indio

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:15 AM

This explains why Russell Coutts was so subdued in his most recent interviews: he was dreading getting sprung with a question about his deliberate cheating. With this revelation, the Measurement Committee will be keeping a close eye on all mods ORTUSA have undertaken, especially on the claimed re-build of the trashed Wing1.



#100 tech

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:20 AM

Brings a rather new and interesting perspective to 'safety recommendations', now doesn't it?

 

What walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, is usually a duck. Sometimes its a rare case of a retarded chicken, and lengthy and convoluted explanations are expressed as to why this is.

 

 Then some more shit happens, and it starts to stink really bad.

 

 

TVNZ here:

 

http://tvnz.co.nz/am...-cheats-5530306






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