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ETNZ Nosedive!!


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#1 waterboy42

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:06 PM

Massive nosedive by ETNZ
What were the causes?
- Sailing too conservatively...
- Downspeed bear away
- cavitation or ventilation
- stalling foil lift
- elevator foils too small
- big gust during bear away
- foil AoA settings

#2 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:12 PM

bearing away too quickly in the gust ? perhaps he could have gained speed by luffing a fit ?

or the contrary, to conservative and not bearing away fast enough ?

 

Comments will be interesting



#3 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:13 PM

Massive nosedive by ETNZ
What were the causes?
- Sailing too conservatively...
- Downspeed bear away
- cavitation or ventilation
- stalling foil lift
- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!



#4 nroose

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:14 PM

They finally experienced the dreaded ebb!

#5 Pandora's Box Rule

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:16 PM

Massive nosedive by ETNZ
What were the causes?
- Sailing too conservatively...
- Downspeed bear away
- cavitation or ventilation
- stalling foil lift
- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in those OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...



#6 K38BOB

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:19 PM

GMR_9093-1-780x520.jpg



#7 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:20 PM

 

Massive nosedive by ETNZ
What were the causes?
- Sailing too conservatively...
- Downspeed bear away
- cavitation or ventilation
- stalling foil lift
- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing.

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.



#8 waterboy42

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:21 PM

It's interesting whether that would have occurred in a contested race.
Maybe the pressure coming off decreased crew concentration a bit...

#9 DngrMs

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:21 PM

Well, it floated... more than can be said for some other boats. And it looks real strong. But it's good to see nothing is perfect.

 

I was listening to LR onboard and it was great - "they will have shit their pants" - thanks Max! :)



#10 wkd928

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

Oracle will be watching this with sweaty palms!



#11 RGH

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:23 PM

pharrrk me - question to be asked is would OR survived with lighter volume in the bows ????

 

GO ETNZ



#12 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:23 PM

.

was the all blacks bledisloe cup game on at that moment ?



#13 swims4USA

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:24 PM

GMR_9093-1-780x520.jpg

 

listening to the commentary and watching the virtualeye, but had no idea it was that bad.  any photos of the "big piece of carbon"?



#14 RGH

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

any one know why LR flying the red flag ???



#15 uflux

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:30 PM

 

 

Massive nosedive by ETNZ
What were the causes?
- Sailing too conservatively...
- Downspeed bear away
- cavitation or ventilation
- stalling foil lift
- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing.

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

 

FFS dude you are a joke.... Elevators were out of the water the bow was to only thing stopping that PP.



#16 Pandora's Box Rule

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:31 PM

 

 

Massive nosedive by ETNZ
What were the causes?
- Sailing too conservatively...
- Downspeed bear away
- cavitation or ventilation
- stalling foil lift
- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing. 

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

 

Not hard to know at all, Or has already shown us quite well thank you very much.

 

To avoid getting in that situation..stay at home in your big girls blouse...oh  and don't sail multi's of course!!...



#17 swims4USA

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:31 PM

 

 

 

Massive nosedive by ETNZ
What were the causes?
- Sailing too conservatively...
- Downspeed bear away
- cavitation or ventilation
- stalling foil lift
- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing.

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

 

FFS dude you are a joke.... Elevators were out of the water the bow was to only thing stopping that PP.

 

audio commentary ken read said elevators stayed in the water.



#18 nav

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:32 PM

GMR_9090_zps6d1a4871.jpg

 

GMR_9091_zps640209a4.jpg

 

GMR_9092_zpsd7691739.jpg

 

GMR_9093_zps9ba789dc.jpg

 

GMR_9094_zps8b581123.jpg

 

all Copyright ACEA / PHOTO GILLES MARTIN-RAGET - all rights reserved



#19 GauchoGreg

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:33 PM

 

 

 

Massive nosedive by ETNZ
What were the causes?
- Sailing too conservatively...
- Downspeed bear away
- cavitation or ventilation
- stalling foil lift
- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

And how about that volume in OR bows mate, plenty there?...

 

Build a bridge mate ...

That boat came to a really hard stop, water clear to the main beam, they probably got close to Pitching the damn thing. 

 

Hard to say how bows that are more wave-piercing might have behaved. Unlike the evidence above we can only really guess.

 

They big point is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place, obviously.

 

Not hard to know at all, Or has already shown us quite well thank you very much.

 

To avoid getting in that situation..stay at home in your big girls blouse...oh  and don't sail multi's of course!!...

 

How about not bearing away so quickly before picking up some speed?  It is not as though crew-work was not to blame there.   You can bet your ass Dean will be the first to admit it.  ETNZ has made mark roundings in tougher conditions than that and not had the slightest problem.



#20 nav

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:34 PM

and the last...

 

GMR_9095_zps173ff868.jpg

 

Copyright ACEA / PHOTO GILLES MARTIN-RAGET - all rights reserved



#21 GauchoGreg

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:34 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.



#22 dantnz

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

On the live feed the rear facing cam showed them coming right out.  Kind of immaterial though.



#23 jonsailor

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

We can be so grateful there was no extra lead in the king post.....she might have kept going down??



#24 waterboy42

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

DB says "I'm sure we could have done things a bit better"
He didn't pinpoint any particular cause apart from crew error.

#25 Rohanoz

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:41 PM

Elevators are assymetric and comply with size mind as per the Coast Guard certificate.

Grasp at as many straws as you want. It was a stuff on a bearaway, probably attributed to a few crew mistakes.

They will be stronger as a result. They will have learnt a lot.

#26 DngrMs

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:41 PM

It is not as though crew-work was not to blame there.   You can bet your ass Dean will be the first to admit it.

 

And he just did on TV... something along the lines of "we could have done some things better".

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Waterboy'



#27 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:42 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.



#28 jaysper

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:44 PM

GMR_9093-1-780x520.jpg

 

Looks buried well beyond the main beam, although pretty hard to tell with all the spray.

Spectacular to watch. Will be all over the news tonight. Maybe even in US?



#29 Hemi

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:45 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

Before these shots the elevators looked to be both momentarily out of the water as the bows angled down.. 



#30 Te Kooti

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:46 PM

The rudder elevators came right out of the water. Way above the surface. No question about it.

 

What most worried me was Waddell and Ward going over.

 

I think Chris went through the fairing. This would put him far too close to appendages underneath.

 

It is wonder Rob did not take his handlebars with him.

 

It is a miracle only two went over.

 

I know SFA about this. But, it looks like there was a problem with the angle of the main foil. With the nose going down, rudder elevators were stunningly irrelevant.

 

If the entire boat is rounding a corner on one foil at an improper angle it causes the "drama and carnage" Tucker Thompson seems to enjoy.

 

I am glad nobody was hurt and very much hope LR get their board problem sorted before Race 2.



#31 P Flados

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:47 PM

The angle from the cam on the bowsprit shows the rudder passing through the wake of the main foil just before the boat pitches forward.  

 

If the rudder stabilizer was loaded up holding the rear down at a crucial moment, ventilation from hitting the froth in the wake allowed it to just pull up and out of the water.  

 

For this type of situation, the stabilizer area is probably less important than the total width of the stabilizer.



#32 Te Kooti

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:47 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

Before these shots the elevators looked to be both momentarily out of the water as the bows angled down.. 

 

Not momentarily.  They were out of the water. Period.



#33 DngrMs

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:48 PM

Will be all over the news tonight. Maybe even in US?

 

I suspect it's spectacular enough to make international sports news coverage, even in uninterested countries.



#34 Te Kooti

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:48 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.

 

 

FFS, did you guys watch the race?

 

The rudder elevators were out of the water.



#35 DngrMs

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:50 PM

But, it looks like there was a problem with the angle of the main foil. With the nose going down, rudder elevators were stunningly irrelevant.

 

I agree, I believe the foil was trimmed to stall or failed into that position. The rudders are irrelevant when the bows are 2 feet under.



#36 Coco200

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

Oh crap, here goes the ruddergate discussion again.

 

Time to tune out of SA for a while...



#37 Te Kooti

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

audio commentary ken read said elevators stayed in the water.

 

Do not believe everything you hear in audio commentary.

 

A picture is worth 1000 words.



#38 jaysper

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

 

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

Before these shots the elevators looked to be both momentarily out of the water as the bows angled down.. 

 

Not momentarily.  They were out of the water. Period.

 

Already front page of stuff.co.nz



#39 surfsailor

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

In a more serious PP scenario, wouldn't the extra volume in the bow make the elevators break the water surface earlier?

Either way, no harm done, and what a cool photo!



#40 jonsailor

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:56 PM

I think you will find that the angle of incidence was too great on the boards just prior to the gust and they launched too high. Probably just at that time, DB tried to get her down a bit to keep control but the boards took over and all too quick, she fired in. I'm sure it was a great learning incident and very much a operator era. Whether the stored power couldn't get the lift angle back quick enough, is another question.

Split second stuff going on....better now than later.

Love those high lift angle of attack bows....saved the day



#41 Robnacra

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:56 PM

here is a pic showing the leeward foil well out of the water

Attached Files



#42 Te Kooti

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:57 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

 

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

 

As I said, sometimes you do not get it!

 

It had nothing to do with "smaller/faster/less-control" rudder elevators.

 

When needed most, they (the rudder elevators) were in the air.

 

Not the water.

 

The problem was with the angle of the main foil on the starboard side.

 

You can guarantee they will not make this mistake again. Because the consequences are worse than most of us would like to contemplate.

 

 I like all NZ crew members and do not want to see anyone killed or hurt.



#43 jaysper

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:59 PM

here is a pic showing the leeward foil well out of the water

 

wheres the yellow lines? no yellow lines = no proof!  ;)



#44 swims4USA

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:59 PM

GMR_9093-1-780x520.jpg

 

Looks buried well beyond the main beam, although pretty hard to tell with all the spray.

Spectacular to watch. Will be all over the news tonight. Maybe even in US?

:D  that's some funny shit right there.



#45 P Flados

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:00 PM

I looked again, and from the side you can see a definite sudden lift of the rear right before the bows go under. 

 

The main foil AOA did seem to be set such that they were headed for putting the nose pretty deep for a "normal" on the edge rounding, but then, "Oh sh-t" the rudder stabilizer lost grip and down she went.

 

I remember hearing team members talk about loss of control when a rudder crosses the froth from the main. At the time I was just thinking it would be a nervous moment as the rear slips sideways until it gets to clean water.  I did not think through loss of the "stabilizer" effect in a bear away.



#46 nav

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:01 PM

Bit wet!

 

Nosedive_zpsf91285fa.png

 

from liveline...



#47 swims4USA

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:02 PM

audio commentary ken read said elevators stayed in the water.

 

Do not believe everything you hear in audio commentary.

 

A picture is worth 1000 words.

 

agreed, but i trust Ken, and he made a point to look at the replay and mention exactly thtat.



#48 waterboy42

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:03 PM

Super impressed how ETNZ were patched up and ready to race in about 20mins.
Obviously they wouldn't have risked that if damage was beyond cosmetic, as limping around the course is more dangerous than racing properly.

#49 swims4USA

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:04 PM

Bit wet!

 

Nosedive_zpsf91285fa.png

 

from liveline...

 

that is an epic capture.  think of all the stresses happening that the boat was not designed for!



#50 Monkey

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:05 PM



Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....
 
Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.
 
As I said, sometimes you do not get it!
 
It had nothing to do with "smaller/faster/less-control" rudder elevators.
 
When needed most, they (the rudder elevators) were in the air.
 
You sure are awfully wound up about this! Call me crazy, but wasn't the whole purpose of IM's rule change so that "when needed most" the rudders would be in the water, and not the air?!?

Edit: and well done to ETNZ. They've obviously done good work designing a boat to survive that.

#51 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:05 PM

Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

 

so are the rudders

 

I think the AC 34 and the 72s are awesome but the terminology is just plain fucking stupid



#52 jaysper

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:06 PM

^ Looks like a submarine with the captain screaming "dive! dive! dive!"

Awesome shot, even if I'm not keen to see it happen again.



#53 Tony-F18

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:09 PM

Their bow volume really saved them today, it's not necessarily a crew error but more of a timing error where they got hit by a puff during the beeraway.

Good thing nobody got serious hurt.

#54 snaerk

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:10 PM

Dean B indicated   EDIT: implyd it was driver/crew error in post race intervyoo



#55 waterboy42

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:12 PM

^^? Fantastic shot Nav, looks like 3/4 of hull volume submerged...

#56 Robnacra

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:13 PM

maybe the starboard foil was just down to far which didn't give enough water above the rudder foil as the boat was foiling to high out of the water. Plausible to as they were coming from upwind/board down to downwind board half up...



#57 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:14 PM


Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....
 
Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.
 
It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.
.
and thats it in a nutshell, 
 
in extreme sports Victory will belong to those who spend the most time beyond the normal mortals  'comfort zone'

this is not a j/105 race populated by sa internet warriors

put your life on the line and take the trophy

#58 W.T

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:17 PM

Good to see the boys giving her a hard time. No one seemed too stressed about it afterwards. I thought it lucky that the guys who fell over didn't collect the rudders. 



#59 Te Kooti

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:18 PM

Their bow volume really saved them today, it's not necessarily a crew error but more of a timing error where they got hit by a puff during the beeraway.

Good thing nobody got serious hurt.

 

I think you are wrong. These boats will be hit by all kinds of "puff."

 

The angle of the starboard board was not appropriate for what the boat was being asked to do.

 

The crew (long ago learned from Ashby) to drive it hard around the corners.

 

Provided everything is aligned, it should turn nicely - like a ballerina in the National Ballet.

 

But, if the angle is wrong and rudder elevators pop out of the water, it is time to visit the fish.

 

I bet taniwha in the starboard hull are bruised and pissed-off. There will also be bruised crew members.



#60 Count Drac

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:18 PM

TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.

 

As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.

 

Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.



#61 Landlockedlubber

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:19 PM

Has any body commented on the risks of a closely following boat scything through this carnage?

#62 Codybear

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:20 PM

Rudders in or out of the water do not appear to be an issue.  It is really once the bow(s) are that far under, will the boat continue to pitch pole all the way or will the boat just come to a stop?  Luckily the boat came to a stop.  Go ETNZ!



#63 nav

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:21 PM

^ looked like a pure main foil issue to me - not rudders. Drive/linkage problem, slow response, wrong setting, crew error. Dean wasn't ready to throw anyone under the bus, but nor did he say that he screwed up.



#64 chocoa

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:22 PM

was it the dagger-board pitch/angle?



#65 jonsailor

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:24 PM

^ looked like a pure main foil issue to me - not rudders. Drive/linkage problem, slow response, wrong setting, crew error. Dean wasn't ready to throw anyone under the bus, but nor did he say that he screwed up.

 

+1



#66 Barnyb

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:25 PM

http://www.newstalkz...e-august18-2013

 

 

VIDEO: Team New Zealand nose dives in race one

#67 snaerk

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:25 PM

was it the dagger-board pitch/angle?

 

that woud be my gess, along with tyming (manely I think on the helm, dont think Ashby scrood up on wing trim) but there not lykely to tell us in enny detail.



#68 Te Kooti

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:25 PM

^ looked like a pure main foil issue to me - not rudders. Drive/linkage problem, slow response, wrong setting, crew error. Dean wasn't ready to throw anyone under the bus, but nor did he say that he screwed up.

 

Correct!



#69 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:27 PM





Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....
 
Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.
 
It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.
 
 
FFS, did you guys watch the race?
 
The rudder elevators were out of the water.
FFS, are you even more an idiot than what you come across as?

The WHOLE POINT behind IM's desire to mandate big elevators of a minimum size was to ADD SURFACE CONTROL so as to PREVENT ANYONE from getting into situations so fucked up, nose down that hard, that farkin' DANGEROUS to the team's crew.

Yes a lot of factors were for sure at play but that Absolutely Was The Intent behind the Safety Rule that ETNZ went to war over, that ignited RudderGate.

FFS yourself. That was DANGEROUS.

#70 floating dutchman

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:30 PM

Stuff.co.nz are saying how ETNZ went on for the win?

No you not have to have all your crew on-board for the finish in the AC?

#71 Robnacra

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:37 PM

bit clearer in this pic. If the rudder foil stayed in the water they would have been fine.

 

Attached File  Etnz rudder foil 2.jpg   63.03K   146 downloads



#72 Groucho Marx

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:39 PM

FFS Stingray, drop it, you're sounding retarded. It was the main foil not being set at a higher angle of attack that tripped the boat; the rudders had FA to do with it. To spell it out into your shell like (but clogged) ear; once the bows were immersed waay down, the main lee foil was at negative attack ... AND only the intelligently designed bows saved the boat from doing an Oracle.



#73 Robnacra

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:40 PM

nah since the start of the ACWS you haven't needed to finish with all the crew.

 

Stuff.co.nz are saying how ETNZ went on for the win?

No you not have to have all your crew on-board for the finish in the AC?



#74 swims4USA

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:41 PM

http://www.newstalkz...e-august18-2013

 

 

VIDEO: Team New Zealand nose dives in race one

ho-lee-shit. 



#75 jonsailor

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:42 PM

 

 





Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....

Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.

It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.


FFS, did you guys watch the race?

The rudder elevators were out of the water.
FFS, are you even more an idiot than what you come across as?

The WHOLE POINT behind IM's desire to mandate big elevators of a minimum size was to ADD SURFACE CONTROL so as to PREVENT ANYONE from getting into situations so fucked up, nose down that hard, that farkin' DANGEROUS to the team's crew.

Yes a lot of factors were for sure at play but that Absolutely Was The Intent behind the Safety Rule that ETNZ went to war over, that ignited RudderGate.

FFS yourself. That was DANGEROUS.

 

FFS spinray, barn door elevators would not have saved shit in this case....give up while you are still way behind.

Operator era and they will learn from this!!!



#76 ncs

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:42 PM

The angle of the starboard board was not appropriate for what the boat was being asked to do

 

The board was at max rake.



#77 P Flados

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:45 PM

A lot of you guys seem to be ignoring that the videos clearly show the rear of the boat pulling up as the rudder stabilizer lost grip when hit the froth from the main foil.  

 

That sudden change of AOA on the boat is what put the nose into the water at the steep angle.

 

Go back and look at the sequence before the nose hit and just tell us that the rear does not rapidly rise just before impact.



#78 bob202

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:51 PM

Massive nosedive by ETNZ

- elevator foils too small

 

Looking forward to seeing those elevators, that's for sure!

I bet you're so glad they didn't get forced to have larger, symmetrical elevators.

 

Rob Waddell would have been cut in two had that been the case.

 

ETNZ showed why having more volume in the hulls matters (in addition to a section of flat bottom ahead of the foil). Oracle's boat would have been fully upside down in that same nose-dive.



#79 aldo

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:57 PM

New tidy whities for everybody.

#80 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:57 PM

TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.
 
As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.
 
Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.

This just emphasizes how constantly harping on Safety actually matters! Exhibit A, right there.

And one of the guys went down inboard, through the tramp, so what is your point again? It's amazing he didn't get cut by that largely in-pointing assym elevator.

Anything to help prevent pitches is a damn good idea in my book.

#81 jaysper

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:58 PM

TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.
 
As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.
 
Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.

This just emphasizes how constantly harping on Safety actually matters! Exhibit A, right there.

And one of the guys went down inboard, through the tramp, so what is your point again?

Anything to help prevent pitches is a damn good idea in my book.

 

Like more bow volume?



#82 Doug Lord

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:59 PM

Looks to me like the rudder foils did their job and that there was main foil lift missing for some reason.Almost like they tripped....
I don't think adjustable rudder foils would have prevented this but no question in my mind that adjustable rudder foils are a safety requirement and should be agreed to by all teams.

#83 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:00 PM

Did bow volume prevent them nosing that hard?

You want to ~prevent~ getting into that f'cked of a situation.

The best possible safety rule next time around is going to be either a min elevator size on the tails or even better yet, adjustable on the fly ones.

#84 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:04 PM

Ken Read:

"They are really, really lucky their day did not end in a disaster."

#85 jaysper

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:05 PM

Did bow volume prevent them nosing that hard?

You want to ~prevent~ getting into that f'cked of a situation.

 

Nothing can prevent them nosing, its impossible.

To suggest that bigger rudders was going to prevent that nose dive is just fanciful.

So, instead you want to have enough safety margin in the boat that if/when it does happen, you have a good chance of coming out of it.

 

Seriously Stinger, ruddergate again? We still aint past weightgate.



#86 Keith

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:05 PM

FFS Stingray, drop it, you're sounding retarded. It was the main foil not being set at a higher angle of attack that tripped the boat; the rudders had FA to do with it. To spell it out into your shell like (but clogged) ear; once the bows were immersed waay down, the main lee foil was at negative attack ... AND only the intelligently designed bows saved the boat from doing an Oracle.

winner winner chicken dinner



#87 Count Drac

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:08 PM

TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.
 
As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.
 
Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.

This just emphasizes how constantly harping on Safety actually matters! Exhibit A, right there.

And one of the guys went down inboard, through the tramp, so what is your point again? It's amazing he didn't get cut by that largely in-pointing assym elevator.

Anything to help prevent pitches is a damn good idea in my book.

 

Stinger, I accept that one of the guys fell inside the hull, but the odds are that for every person who falls overboard most will fall OUTSIDE. One can never eliminate every risk (apart from staying in the shed), so it's still better to reduce the most LIKELY risk rather than EVERY risk. Your answer ignores this.



#88 ATrimble

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:08 PM

Max pitch angle = -11 degrees... so rudderfoils out before that angle.

Not a lot of room for error, and less as the boat lifts up on the main foil.



#89 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:09 PM


Did bow volume prevent them nosing that hard?

You want to ~prevent~ getting into that f'cked of a situation.

 
Nothing can prevent them nosing, its impossible.
To suggest that bigger rudders was going to prevent that nose dive is just fanciful.
So, instead you want to have enough safety margin in the boat that if/when it does happen, you have a good chance of coming out of it.
 
Seriously Stinger, ruddergate again? We still aint past weightgate.
It's not an argument that big, attitude control-helping, rudder elevators would ~necessarily~ have been enough to prevent that f-up; it is an argument that it Would Have Helped.

That was the entire intent of that Safety Rule.

Who lit the fuse, fought it tooth and nail, created Ruddergate, and damn near killed someone today?

Waiting...

#90 Calico Jack

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:12 PM


Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....
 
Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.
 
It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.
 
 
FFS, did you guys watch the race?
 
The rudder elevators were out of the water.
FFS, are you even more an idiot than what you come across as?
The WHOLE POINT behind IM's desire to mandate big elevators of a minimum size was to ADD SURFACE CONTROL so as to PREVENT ANYONE from getting into situations so fucked up, nose down that hard, that farkin' DANGEROUS to the team's crew.
Yes a lot of factors were for sure at play but that Absolutely Was The Intent behind the Safety Rule that ETNZ went to war over, that ignited RudderGate.
FFS yourself. That was DANGEROUS.
t

Would you get back on your meds....the ETNZ rudders comply with the CG permit, it just highlights the folly of IM's dogma of putting the safety of these boats at bearway at the feet of a simplistic view that an eleator minimum s/a rule will resolve the dangers

#91 jaysper

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:12 PM

 


Did bow volume prevent them nosing that hard?

You want to ~prevent~ getting into that f'cked of a situation.

 
Nothing can prevent them nosing, its impossible.
To suggest that bigger rudders was going to prevent that nose dive is just fanciful.
So, instead you want to have enough safety margin in the boat that if/when it does happen, you have a good chance of coming out of it.
 
Seriously Stinger, ruddergate again? We still aint past weightgate.
It's not an argument that big, attitude control-helping, rudder elevators would ~necessarily~ have been enough to prevent that f-up; it is an argument that it Would Have Helped.

That was the entire intent of that Safety Rule.

Who lit the fuse, fought it tooth and nail, created Ruddergate, and damn near killed someone today?

Waiting...

 

won't someone think of the children!

 

Ok, I'm done discussing rudders with you. You are so utterly myopic that its just not worth the bits n bytes.

Will get back to admiring the amazing submarine shot



#92 Doug Lord

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:15 PM

If they had been able to put the other foil down before they started to round they might have had enough lift forward to prevent this.

#93 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:15 PM

Oracle for creating this rule and so far delivering us one of the most piss poor and laughable Americas Cup of all time. Standup and be proud, Russell, Larry, Tom (Ehman) you've done the sailing world proud...not

#94 Serge A. Storms

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:16 PM

Video:

http://www.nzherald....jectid=10913967



#95 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:16 PM

 

 





Elevators look like they are in the water to me.

And yet they still lost it....
 
Again, very curious to see if they've gone to smaller/faster/less-control.
 
It's a legitimate question - even if they had not fought so hard against the Safety rules.
 
 
FFS, did you guys watch the race?
 
The rudder elevators were out of the water.
FFS, are you even more an idiot than what you come across as?

The WHOLE POINT behind IM's desire to mandate big elevators of a minimum size was to ADD SURFACE CONTROL so as to PREVENT ANYONE from getting into situations so fucked up, nose down that hard, that farkin' DANGEROUS to the team's crew.

Yes a lot of factors were for sure at play but that Absolutely Was The Intent behind the Safety Rule that ETNZ went to war over, that ignited RudderGate.

FFS yourself. That was DANGEROUS.

 

and thats how its meant to be

 

this is not a race in yr Snark fleet mate

 

who dares wins and this game is for keeps

 

if you yanks cant cut this mustard then the cup is going south

 

resistance is futile  



#96 Doug Lord

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:16 PM

 

Oracle for creating this rule and so far delivering us one of the most piss poor and laughable Americas Cup of all time. Standup and be proud, Russell, Larry, Tom (Ehman) you've done the sailing world proud...not

=============
That is just fucking bullshit!

#97 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:17 PM


TK, from what I've seen on every replay the rudder elevators were IN the water as the bows went under, and then came out. It happened very quickly, but I beleive the bows went in first.
 
As to why it happened - on one of the replays Dean says just moments before that a big puff (or gust) was about to hit, and that was probably the event that initated the sequence that followed. We all know that bearing away is the most likely point of sailing where a PP can occur, and being hit by a gust at that very moment was not unexpected. It will make the team stronger and give them more confidence in Aotearoa.
 
Stingray, your constant harping-on about elevators is wearing a bit thin. One commentator remarked that if the symetrical elevators had been installed, then there was a real possibility that Rob Wadell, who fell outboard of the hull, may very well have been hit by it. Thankfully the orignial rule was retained.

This just emphasizes how constantly harping on Safety actually matters! Exhibit A, right there.

And one of the guys went down inboard, through the tramp, so what is your point again? It's amazing he didn't get cut by that largely in-pointing assym elevator.

Anything to help prevent pitches is a damn good idea in my book.
 
Stinger, I accept that one of the guys fell inside the hull, but the odds are that for every person who falls overboard most will fall OUTSIDE. One can never eliminate every risk (apart from staying in the shed), so it's still better to reduce the most LIKELY risk rather than EVERY risk. Your answer ignores this.
Yes, I agree the odds. And also give solid merit to the argument that symms, if they extend too far beyond BMax are potentially much more dangerous to crew than if they do not.

But you want to take measures, any reasonable ones, including bigger control surfaces on the tail, to ~prevent~ getting into situations as dangerous as this was.

It is just clearly obvious to me, and I still don't care if that argument faces another gale of hot-air to the contrary. Safety measures should have been embraced, ALL of them. ETNZ proved today she is not a safe boat either, they damn near killed one or two of their own.

#98 waterboy42

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:18 PM

Amazing composure showed by DB, barely raised his voice, a couple of queries "is everyone ok" then, "we have to gybe soon guys" and on to complete the race minus 3 grinders (Wardell, Ward and? McFarlane?). Then a quick 20min patch up job and ready for race 2... Awesome.

#99 david r

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:18 PM

my theory:

They always do that rounding with the lee bow down a little, but in a smooth rounding, the windward hull is well up.

On this rounding they got a gust and eased the wing; lowering the windward hull into the water.  The windward bow hooked in and took the boat with it.

The OR capsize hooked the windward bow too.  Most pp's involve hooking the windward bow in fast cats.

ETNZ saved it somehow.  Maybe just stopping sent them up like a cork.

 

Maybe it would make sense to use the windward foil for the top mark rounding if it's looks like a 40knt. rounding.  They seem to be pretty stable with both boards down.  They can always raise it back up once they are on their way.



#100 KiwiJoker

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:19 PM

^ looked like a pure main foil issue to me - not rudders. Drive/linkage problem, slow response, wrong setting, crew error. Dean wasn't ready to throw anyone under the bus, but nor did he say that he screwed up.

 

+1

 

 

^ looked like a pure main foil issue to me - not rudders. Drive/linkage problem, slow response, wrong setting, crew error. Dean wasn't ready to throw anyone under the bus, but nor did he say that he screwed up.

 

+1

 

My take on it too. Hopefully Deano will elaborate on the fine points of what happened.






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