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İs a ketch rig obsolete today?


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#1 Omer

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:41 PM

About 25 years ago there were still good ketch designs favoured by cruisers. One of which i admired in those days were Moody 44's. İ am sure a great many more were being produced then outside the existing classics. 

Probably by todays standards they were not as fast and efficient. But if my memory serves me wright they were good, able cruisers, a dream to sail and much easily handled.

Designs have evolved, gone the full circle round and came back to much bigger mains and smaller head sails. On the other hand Ketches have dissapeared.

We have today much more efficient furling systems for the main, better winches, and autopilots to keep your head into the wind ofcourse. But i wonder how much more trouble is eradicated by technology whereas a ketch rig minimised the loads and problems at the onset.

I wonder how much do cruisers benefit from the fractional increased efficiency of a sloop compared to a ketch? How much more demanding and costly are all the sail handling systems of a sloop of equal sail area? And what other versatilities are lost in terms of reducing sail.

I remember seing these boats under genoa and mizzen only when it blowed. And nobody said they were wanking!



#2 Jose Carumba

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:21 PM

I think ketches are still viable for cruising.  As far as being easier to sail than a sloop I am not sure about that.  Although you have smaller sails (main & mizzen) You have an additional mast and rigging to deal with.  I think the advantage of a ketch is in a lower center of effort and the ability to divide your sail area in more combinations depending on the weather.  Also. you generally have a lower rig height than a comparable sloop and thus you can get under more bridges.  Check out the Catari thread here in Cruising Anarchy.



#3 Bob Perry

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:38 PM

I don't think the ketch rig is obsolete. You don't see it on  smaller boats anymore due to advances in sail handling gear. But for bigger boats there still can be advantages.

My client for this new build at PSC certainly did not think the ketch was obsolete.

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#4 Joli

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:28 PM

Were the booms Park Avenue or roller furling Bob?  I saw the tools at Offshore but can't remember what it was........



#5 kdh

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:41 PM

I'm pretty sure ND settled on roller furling. Nice looking boom.

 

FurlingBoom1.jpg



#6 Bob Perry

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 10:12 PM

kdh is correct on the booms. They will be nice booms. ND was actually quite concerned with the aesthtics of the rig details. He wa not keen on the big, clumsy looking LF booms.



#7 JBE

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 11:50 PM

Maybe they are less of an option  than they were due to all the redundancy in rig and rigging costs and the escalation of that in modern currency. You might as well double the cost of that component at build I would think. That doesn't mean they're less viable from a use point of view in any way.

I love the versatility of it and still maintain I would never have bought a boat that size( 45 ft) if it'd been macaroni rigged, because I don't want to be reliant on some electric winch to get the sails set. The boat isn't any race competitor by todays standards but certainly isn't a slouch, gets to 4 knots just fine, and does it loaded.



#8 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 12:18 AM

JBE: very good point, i.e. cost.

 

" and does it loaded."

How fast is it when you are straight?
 



#9 Mr. Ed

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:11 AM

Rather than a macaroni rig, we've ended up at the other end of the pasta spectrum with a spaghettini cutter rigged gaff ketch - or it feels like that with all the string you need

We enjoy it very much. You seldom reef, just drop a sail. You can usually get a good balance, although there is the potential for getting it badly wrong. But you certainly can't get up to weather much under granny rig of headsails and mizzen. 

With the wind a bit free she can stand up to her canvas very well, what with the centre of gravity being so low.



#10 Omer

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 12:24 PM

I wonder what is the cost differential between relatively flimsier two sticks, rigging and sails  compared to a much more hefty single stick, rigging and the commensurate bigger main. If you include all the winches, blocks, travellers, reefing gear and what not, which all have to be a size or two bigger, i guess the difference would be smaller than one thinks.

 

I also think for a cruising sailor, fiddling with a couple more lines is part of the joy, rather than an annoyance. Especially the Mizzen staysail on a reach. Even for a 45 footer i think i would feel more comfortable if i could handle anything with a manual winch than depending on electrics.  



#11 Mr. Ed

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 12:32 PM

The man who built ours, when called upon to justify her "obsolete" and complicated rig, did so by describing it as "more entertaining". And yotts are not all about utility, after all.



#12 kdh

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 02:51 PM

kdh is correct on the booms. They will be nice booms. ND was actually quite concerned with the aesthtics of the rig details. He wa not keen on the big, clumsy looking LF booms.

 

Bob, the Offshore boom is either electric or hydraulic. Which is ND going for? Here is the LF log I have on my boat.

 

IMG_1541.jpg



#13 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:02 PM

Omer:

You are wrong.  The difference is greater than you would think. Don't forget an extra set of chainplates. The sticks would not be "flimsier".

But you are entitled to your guess.

 

kdh:

ND's booms are hydraulic.



#14 Mr. Ed

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:13 PM

Bob, I hadn't seen your Catari before. What a beautiful boat. Congratulations!



#15 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:28 PM

Thanks fugger. We worked long and hard to get the look just right. It real.ly helped to have Rasper working with me so we could evaluate the aesthetic options. He was very good at reading my 2D mind.



#16 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:34 PM

When people look at CATARI I hope they appreciate the difficulties that having two independant cockpits presented. There were styling challenges along with deck layout challenges. WHL has been a huge help on the deck layout. In short, I had and am still having a lot of help with the details of this design and a lot of the help came straight from CA. The crew at PSC is great to work with. Steve Brodie, the owner of PSC, will identify a problem area, then sketch up a possible solution and email it to me. This is far better than just emailing me with "We have a problem."



#17 Jose Carumba

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:04 PM

Omer:

You are wrong.  The difference is greater than you would think. Don't forget an extra set of chainplates. The sticks would not be "flimsier".

But you are entitled to your guess.

 

And also don't forget the extra labor costs required to build and install the mizzen and its rigging.  People seem to forget this



#18 Skol

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:09 PM

How could reaching along on jib and jigger ever be obsolete?  

 

Our next 'cruising' boat will be a ketch or yawl rig, and large enough to liveaboard.   The Admiral really has the hots right now for Bob's venerable CT 54.   We saw a Scorpio CT 72 in Sausalito last weekend and briefly chatted with the owner.   Magnificent looking boat, and I can't imagine sailing such a large vessel double-handed with my wife if sloop rigged.    

 

Catari looks like one helluva nice boat.   Those dual cockpits and the hard dodger mean business.  



#19 Mr. Ed

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:10 PM

I take it you can work the boat entirely from the aft cockpit if you want? Or at least as far as sheeting goes.



#20 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:10 PM

Fugs:

Yes, for sheeting. But some halyards are lead to the center cockpit. The aft cockpit is not very big and with the mizzen gear I felt or WE felt that it would be a mistake to try and lead to many lines to the aft cockpit.



#21 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:11 PM

Thanks for the kind words Skol.



#22 Mr. Ed

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:26 PM

OK, I'll take one then. Put it on the account. 

Thx



#23 Hobie Dog

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 05:57 PM

OK, I'll take one then. Put it on the account. 

Thx

Better make that 3. Sweet looking boat, I mean yacht! :D



#24 JBE

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:23 PM

heh, with all the added concentration Bob, I do believe 4.2 will be achievable.

JBE: very good point, i.e. cost.

 

" and does it loaded."

How fast is it when you are straight?
 



#25 JBE

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:32 PM

I don't agree re the cost but I do about the  mizzen staysail. A great sail, we use ours whenever we get the chance

.Its really easy to set and drop  right in the middle of the boat and some dynamic about it means that it seems to punch well above its weight..

I wonder what is the cost differential between relatively flimsier two sticks, rigging and sails  compared to a much more hefty single stick, rigging and the commensurate bigger main. If you include all the winches, blocks, travellers, reefing gear and what not, which all have to be a size or two bigger, i guess the difference would be smaller than one thinks.

 

I also think for a cruising sailor, fiddling with a couple more lines is part of the joy, rather than an annoyance. Especially the Mizzen staysail on a reach. Even for a 45 footer i think i would feel more comfortable if i could handle anything with a manual winch than depending on electrics.  



#26 sailglobal

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:57 AM

Well how's this for a ketch rig? Yes, it's still alive Bob, but only just,,,,,,,

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#27 P_Wop

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:06 AM

Well how's this for a ketch rig? Yes, it's still alive Bob, but only just,,,,,,,

 

Well, holy crap, that's Cascade.  Where is this?



#28 sailglobal

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:14 AM

She was up a creek in Belize last week, looking a bit sad and neglected.

#29 Jake B

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:35 AM

Wow, Blast from the past. I saw Cascade off Marblehead many times when I was a kid.



#30 whinging pom

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:53 AM

A disagreeable aspect of a ketch rig is the way rain water from the mizzen drips down the neck of your impregnable oilskins whilst you are steering.



#31 Omer

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:58 AM

Shame. There is still a bit of the boat left to put the forward mast.



#32 Omer

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:09 AM

Bob, mine was over simplification ofcourse. I agree that there are many more items to consider.

 

What about SA/ Displ. Ratio?  Can a ketch ever match a sloop in this department considering adding more canvas, reducing ballast, versus added weight of the rigging etc.



#33 Estar

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:54 PM

I have been RTW on a ketch and on a sloop.  My opinion is that the ketch is slightly preferred for passage making (if you take the time to learn how to sail it, and don't just treat it like a sloop with a spare mast); while the sloop is preferred for coastal sailing.



#34 Estar

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 10:49 AM

I might add, that for me the more important rig question (that how many masts) is how easy it is to fly different size headsails. On SIlk we has twin side by side headstays, and on Hawk we use the high modulus luff "code zero" technology.  Both allow a 'working jib' on a normal roller furler, while also allowing easy use of a range of other headsails.  We quite actively use a large light headsail ('code zero'), a 'twin' (to the working jib), and two sizes of staysails. These noticeably add to our passage speed and enjoyment.



#35 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:29 PM

Attached File  #841.jpg   230.96K   77 downloads
On two masthead boats, I generally prefer to go to a schooner rig with masts of equal lengths. The question is what you place in between the masts; a conventional main; a staysail with a fisherman; or a staysail with a high tack mini mainsail.
47' Rachel Slocum at Bora Bora.

#36 SloopJonB

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 10:28 PM

Well how's this for a ketch rig? Yes, it's still alive Bob, but only just,,,,,,,

That's a shame. Cascade set a new standard for ugly and I never liked the whole rule beating concept behind her but she was a famous and kind of significant boat - one of the most outrageous rule beaters ever. Sad to see her rot away like that.



#37 SloopJonB

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 10:31 PM

attachicon.gif#841.jpg
On two masthead boats, I generally prefer to go to a schooner rig with masts of equal lengths. The question is what you place in between the masts; a conventional main; a staysail with a fisherman; or a staysail with a high tack mini mainsail.
47' Rachel Slocum at Bora Bora.

 

That has the added benefit of being a LOT better looking than a conventional ketch. :)



#38 Bob Perry

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:22 AM

Not better looking than mine by a long shot.

I do not like boats with matst of equal lengths. Why would you do that?

 

Now you have a sloop chasing a boat with only two heqadsails. Show me how that can possibly be efficient. Ever try to creep up on another boats stern while you are racing. You can't do it.



#39 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:07 AM

Well how's this for a ketch rig? Yes, it's still alive Bob, but only just,,,,,,,

That's a shame. Cascade set a new standard for ugly and I never liked the whole rule beating concept behind her but she was a famous and kind of significant boat - one of the most outrageous rule beaters ever. Sad to see her rot away like that.

Absolutely. The fun days of the IOR. As long as someone else bought the requisite new boat every year. Good time to be crew.

#40 CyberBOB

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 04:16 AM

Not better looking than mine by a long shot.
I do not like boats with matst of equal lengths. Why would you do that?
 
Now you have a sloop chasing a boat with only two heqadsails. Show me how that can possibly be efficient. Ever try to creep up on another boats stern while you are racing. You can't do it.


Thanks Bob, a very interesting way of explaining this. I knew Vendridi and Club Med (OSTAR) boats were designed for a way to allow 1 person to single hand such huge boats. I knew they were not particularly efficient, but likening it to one headsail "covering" the next headsail made a connection in my head.

#41 zedboy

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:19 AM

 

Well how's this for a ketch rig? Yes, it's still alive Bob, but only just,,,,,,,

That's a shame. Cascade set a new standard for ugly and I never liked the whole rule beating concept behind her but she was a famous and kind of significant boat - one of the most outrageous rule beaters ever. Sad to see her rot away like that.

Absolutely. The fun days of the IOR. As long as someone else bought the requisite new boat every year. Good time to be crew.

 

Found an old SI article about Cascade and how much the other skippers hated her: http://sportsillustr...128/1/index.htm

 

Sounds like they really cheated the system by skipping the headsail :-)

 

Haven't found any pix of her sailing yet.



#42 whispers

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:25 AM

http://www.whitsunda...mas-sopwith.php

cannot beat the beauty of a ketch



#43 SloopJonB

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:12 PM

Yes you can.

 


Attached File  Schooner.jpg   133.74K   46 downloadsAttached File  Schooner 2.jpg   13.3K   50 downloads



#44 SemiSalt

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:32 PM

Not better looking than mine by a long shot.

I do not like boats with matst of equal lengths. Why would you do that?

 

Now you have a sloop chasing a boat with only two heqadsails. Show me how that can possibly be efficient. Ever try to creep up on another boats stern while you are racing. You can't do it.

 

 

The Herreshoff cat-ketch was really designed to be sailed with the mizzen staysail, at least while racing. Someone called it a sloop chasing a catboat.

 

 

282m.jpg



#45 JBE

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:51 PM

There's one small pic on this site

 

http://rbsailing.blogspot.co.nz/

 

 

 

 

Well how's this for a ketch rig? Yes, it's still alive Bob, but only just,,,,,,,

That's a shame. Cascade set a new standard for ugly and I never liked the whole rule beating concept behind her but she was a famous and kind of significant boat - one of the most outrageous rule beaters ever. Sad to see her rot away like that.

Absolutely. The fun days of the IOR. As long as someone else bought the requisite new boat every year. Good time to be crew.

 

Found an old SI article about Cascade and how much the other skippers hated her: http://sportsillustr...128/1/index.htm

 

Sounds like they really cheated the system by skipping the headsail :-)

 

Haven't found any pix of her sailing yet.



#46 Foxxy

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:54 PM

282m.jpg

I was looking at ketches over the weekend. The one pictured above is one of the few that can actually have a bimini rigged while sailing. If you live in Florida and cruise the islands, that is really a must have feature.



#47 TQA

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:11 PM

45 posts on ketches and no mention of Amel. 

 

For years Henri Amel built boats for cruisers. Starting with the Euro at 39 ft and the last he designed was 55 ft. Everyone of them was a ketch.

 

Chantiers Amel is still in business and still building great cruising boats although I believe that the current offering is not from the board of Henri.

 

Still a ketch though! See http://www.amel.fr/la-gamme/amel-55



#48 nathan_bossett

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:11 PM

What about SA/ Displ. Ratio?  Can a ketch ever match a sloop in this department considering adding more canvas, reducing ballast, versus added weight of the rigging etc.

 

The standard SA/Disp ratio is most useful for comparing roughly similar designs.  When you start looking at diverging purposes (such as optimizing for Windward-Leeward race courses versus reaching passagemaking) the standard formula might not tell as much of the story as one might hope.

 

It also depends on what you a "fair" ketch and sloop to compare: Given that most new ketches these days are built as cruisers, are we comparing a new-design racing ketch to a new-design racing sloop or a typical cruising ketch to a typical cruising sloop, or something else?  Equal LOA? Height of main mast? Is the sail area computed with main+mizzen+100% headsails? Or with everything an aggressively sailed ketch or sloop might want to hoist on a run? A reach? A beat?  Do you take only a fraction of the mizzen sail area as some SA/Disp interpretations do because it's known to be less efficient? Equal cost to build new? Some kind of equal cost, or some kind of design rule allowing unequal costs?

 

Looking in the other direction you'd see the same problem comparing a cat rig such as a Wylie 30 to a sloop: which jib/genoa do you count on the sloop, how do you take the sloop's spinnaker/gennaker/asy kite into account, etc.

 

And in reply to TQA, as a lifetime sloop racer I'm having a great time with my older Amel ketch so far.  At only a month in, I still need to figure out what I can expect for performance.  For general cruising around between tight reaches and runs and entertaining people wearing street clothes above decks while it's blowing 20+ with jib+main+mizzen and no reefs in she's a blast.



#49 Bob Perry

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:34 PM

I think I have entire ketch design process well in hand with CATARI. I did not take a "theoretical" approach to the design. I just went with good old, tried and proven reality combined with 46 years of design experience.

My mizzen is a big mizzen. This was a function of several things. I kept the mizzen forward, kept it out of the cockpit and this gave me room to make it a big sail. This rendering is obsolete now. The headsrtay now goes to the end of the bowsprit. We modified the rig to mkake it ICW friendly so I needed to lengthen "J" to gain back the dail area I lost cutting "I" down. I was dubious when asked about the ICW rig but now I am happy with the result.

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#50 SloopJonB

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:40 PM

From what I can see of the main & mizzen in that pic, it looks mighty close to an equal masted schooner. ;)

 

Great lookin' boat by the way Bob - a real voyager. How do you think it will hold up on reefs? :D



#51 Bob Perry

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:46 PM

Jon:

 

Thanks a lot Jon. We'll just keep it of the reefs.

There is almost 12' difference in mast heights. As I said in a previous post, I do not like the equal mast height rig at all so why would I give CATARI a rig I don't like?

The challenge with this rig was to keep it low while achieving a good SA/D. Having a nice big mizzen helped this.



#52 islandplanet

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:33 PM

I like the big mizzen concept. My cat ketch had about 55% of the SA in the main, 45% in the mizzen. Some of the Dashew ketches have good sized mizzens. For cruising I don't think ketches are anywhere near obsolete. Different horses for different courses. 



#53 Bob Perry

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:57 PM

IP:

I think you are right. I have only sailed a dozen or so ketches in my life. Maybe 20, I'd have to scartch my head and think backa while. My very forst production boat, CT 54, was a ketch and a very good one if I do say so. I have lots of hours, days, weeks on a CT54. I was about 27 years old when I designed it. Some people on these threads post things that I see as being "fragmented" views on design, i.e. first you figure this and then you figure that and then you figure this etc.

My approach is what I think today is called Whole-istic I try to imagine the finished boat, sailing along, sunny day, all paid for, cute girls in the crew, sail set like carved ivory, two fingers on the helm (when needed) sailing off into a sunset. Then I slowly begin to take that picture apart and to isolate and define the individual elements.

 

I'm a whizz at it.

 

Do you really think that Frank Sinatra sung in the shower and thought to himself, "That stinks"?



#54 TQA

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:08 AM

omparing a cat rig such as a Wylie 30 to a sloop: which jib/genoa do you count on the sloop, how do you take the sloop's spinnaker/gennaker/asy kite into account, etc.

 

And in reply to TQA, as a lifetime sloop racer I'm having a great time with my older Amel ketch so far.  At only a month in, I still need to figure out what I can expect for performance.  For general cruising around between tight reaches and runs and entertaining people wearing street clothes above decks while it's blowing 20+ with jib+main+mizzen and no reefs in she's a blast.

 

Which one do you have?

 

I looked hard at a 48 footer but there was too much deferred maintenance and in the end I thought she was more boat than I needed.  



#55 nathan_bossett

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:03 AM

 

And in reply to TQA, as a lifetime sloop racer I'm having a great time with my older Amel ketch so far.  At only a month in, I still need to figure out what I can expect for performance.  For general cruising around between tight reaches and runs and entertaining people wearing street clothes above decks while it's blowing 20+ with jib+main+mizzen and no reefs in she's a blast.

 

Which one do you have?

 

I looked hard at a 48 footer but there was too much deferred maintenance and in the end I thought she was more boat than I needed.  

 

Maramu #29, 1979 hull.  Is this the one you looked at? (islandplanet's)

 

There's lots to do but her bones are solid and the serious/expensive stuff is in good shape. She was built before all of the later fanciness/complexity was added (no power winches, no furling main and mizzen, etc.) so things are simple.

 

I was also looking for a lot less boat (as in looking for something around 24'-40', and yes that's a range that indicates I didn't know what I wanted) but wandering around there were a few things that weren't usual but everything kind of fit together for a coherent purpose.

 

She's entirely livable in a way that doesn't compromise on being able to leave the slip in as much time as it takes to disconnect electrical power and toss off the docklines.  For example, there's adequate storage for your stuff and adequate dedicated space for things like computer and monitor at the nav station without filling up the dining table with extraneous gear in port that needs to be stowed before leaving.  She's dry in the face of wind and spray- well, I do need to replace some hatch seals and 5200/4200/silicone a few things.  The center cockpit arrangement and hence bulkheaded off engine compartment led to a few pleasant and remarkable surprises in terms of accessibility for maintenance, sound, and smell (well, lack of engine/oil/diesel/etc. smell) in the living spaces.

 

Just last night I cruised along doublehanded on a beam reach through wind varying 15-25 kts under a short hoist jib and jigger while enjoying sunset, dinner, and the night skyline of San Francisco without adjusting sails.  I realize that we weren't trimmed for performance but neither were we flogging at any time or capsizing our dinner when a puff hit.  Both of us are sloop racers and were having a great time wearing light clothing plus a jacket once it got dark.  The approval of a good number of racing friends upon actually sailing on her has quite cemented the decision for me.

 

There are things which a new design might do differently.  For example, I was recently touring a friend's 42' Beneteau and envying the dedicated shower stall (as do I another pair of friends' Ericson 38's setup).  But all in all, and I say this as someone who thinks that something like an Olson 40 or J130 is an absolute dream boat for shorthanded sailing, the Amel is a fantastic choice for me to just decide that it's time to head out for the afternoon or a weekend without bothering to check the weather forecast.



#56 nathan_bossett

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:28 AM

I think I have entire ketch design process well in hand with CATARI. I did not take a "theoretical" approach to the design. I just went with good old, tried and proven reality combined with 46 years of design experience.

My mizzen is a big mizzen. This was a function of several things. I kept the mizzen forward, kept it out of the cockpit and this gave me room to make it a big sail. This rendering is obsolete now. The headsrtay now goes to the end of the bowsprit. We modified the rig to mkake it ICW friendly so I needed to lengthen "J" to gain back the dail area I lost cutting "I" down. I was dubious when asked about the ICW rig but now I am happy with the result.

Two questions:

Is the steering station in the aft cockpit?  If so, does the forward cockpit and dodger obstruct visibility forward or is that a visual trick of the rendering? (the first image you posted in this thread showed no forward dodger- I assume that the later image is a more recent iteration)

From this picture, it looks like the main and mizzen booms are of about equal length- the mizzen actually scales out longer in the pic but that could be sheet angle, and the top of the rig is cropped out of the rendering.  Does this mean that you have significantly different aspect ratios for main and mizzen? (ref your previous comment about not liking masts of equal height, which I assume means that you like mizzen masts significantly shorter than main masts on a ketch) 



#57 Bob Perry

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 11:44 AM

The wheel is aft and raised a step above the rest of the aft cockpit. Extensive mock up work was done to insure sight lines were not interupted and adequate for the owners diminutive wife. The forward dodger will be down most of the time and is still included in the boat spec,

 

"EY" is 18" shorter than "E" . Aspect ratios are close to indentical.

 

your previous comment about not liking masts of equal height, which I assume means that you like mizzen masts significantly shorter than main masts on a ketch) "

Of course! If the mizzen were not shorter it would be a schooner.
 

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#58 Omer

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:39 AM

Bob, looking at the renderings of  CATARI, above, i could not help myself but ask about the binnacle design.

Is the hexagonal glass cover  with flat panes is a result of some tradition? 

I always wondered why they were made this way in the old days, and concluded to myself that probably a round glass of a certain

diameter with the right conical shape was difficult to obtain.

But nowadays even if you walked into an IKEA shop it is likely to find a glass vase which when inverted would do the job :-)

So why go the trouble of manufacturing a unit as such, which hinders the vision and may leak in time.

The only other thing i can think of is the reflection and distortion from a round glass. But since the compasses themselves are covered by a semi spherical glass, may be thats not the reason either.



#59 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:15 AM

Omer:

The client asked for this kind of binnacle. As simple as that. That's what custom design is all about.



#60 Presuming Ed

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:29 PM

If that's a Danforth Skylight binnacle compass (certainly looks like one), I do hope he's got one somewhere, as they're not made anymore. 

 

(ETA - hold that. I see Richie make them.) Very salty looking. 

 

sk-615-c-200.jpg



#61 Rasputin22

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 12:46 PM

If that's a Danforth Skylight binnacle compass (certainly looks like one), I do hope he's got one somewhere, as they're not made anymore. 

 

(ETA - hold that. I see Richie make them.) Very salty looking. 

 

sk-615-c-200.jpg

 

 

That is the one! 



#62 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:20 PM

That's it and we have been told they would be more than happy to make one for us.

What do you think? I draw something on a boat that doesn't exist? Actually some time and effort was put into tracking that binnacle down, mostly by ND.

I was more in favor of this look for the binnacle.

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#63 sailglobal

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:45 PM

Bob, under power, say at 8 Kts, will the bow raise or stern settle enough to change the line of sight from the steering station?

#64 Skol

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 03:41 PM

That's it and we have been told they would be more than happy to make one for us.

What do you think? I draw something on a boat that doesn't exist? Actually some time and effort was put into tracking that binnacle down, mostly by ND.

I was more in favor of this look for the binnacle.

 

you know ... a crockpot binnacle would be quite the luxury on a night watch.    This is a stroke of genius.   Prepare in galley, then take removable pot out to cockpit to cook and serve.   Maybe there's a way to project a holographic compass onto the glass lid?  Check heading, then refocus to check on dinner.  What a time saver!   

... back to my corner.  



#65 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 03:47 PM

Skol:

Thanks for recognizing the genius of my crockpot binnacle. It's amazing what you can dream up at 4:30am.

 

Globs. I don;t think there will be any signifigant trim change at 8 knots. This boat has a big wide fanny with very flat buttocks. At around 9.5 knots I think the stern will sink a bit but I don;t have the software capable of predicting that accurately. I go by my eye. Seems to work.

 

The fun one to watch at speed will be the SLIVER. I pushed as much volume aft in that DE as I possibly could. The stern sections were inspired by Laurie's BLACK MAGIC bow sections. Hope it works.



#66 kimbottles

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 03:56 PM

Skol:

Thanks for recognizing the genius of my crockpot binnacle. It's amazing what you can dream up at 4:30am.

 

Globs. I don;t think there will be any signifigant trim change at 8 knots. This boat has a big wide fanny with very flat buttocks. At around 9.5 knots I think the stern will sink a bit but I don;t have the software capable of predicting that accurately. I go by my eye. Seems to work.

 

The fun one to watch at speed will be the SLIVER. I pushed as much volume aft in that DE as I possibly could. The stern sections were inspired by Laurie's BLACK MAGIC bow sections. Hope it works.

 

Everyone gets the bow and stern mixed up on the Sliver design....now we know why, Bob used a bow section for the stern....is this a new trend in yacht design?



#67 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 04:04 PM

Years ago when tank testing 12m's they ( not sure who "they" is) claimed they tested faster when pulled backwards.

I don't think FRANCIS LEE will trim down ny the stern at all at speed. I am ready to be amazed.



#68 Jose Carumba

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 04:55 PM

Skol:

Thanks for recognizing the genius of my crockpot binnacle. It's amazing what you can dream up at 4:30am.

 

Globs. I don;t think there will be any signifigant trim change at 8 knots. This boat has a big wide fanny with very flat buttocks. At around 9.5 knots I think the stern will sink a bit but I don;t have the software capable of predicting that accurately. I go by my eye. Seems to work.

 

The fun one to watch at speed will be the SLIVER. I pushed as much volume aft in that DE as I possibly could. The stern sections were inspired by Laurie's BLACK MAGIC bow sections. Hope it works.

 

Everyone gets the bow and stern mixed up on the Sliver design....now we know why, Bob used a bow section for the stern....is this a new trend in yacht design?

 

Turnabout is fair play, as they say.



#69 kimbottles

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:28 PM

Years ago when tank testing 12m's they ( not sure who "they" is) claimed they tested faster when pulled backwards.

I don't think FRANCIS LEE will trim down by the stern at all at speed. I am ready to be amazed.

 

With the rudder now envisioned as turning 360 degrees we will be able to sail her backwards to see if she is faster in reverse.......



#70 Jose Carumba

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:42 PM

Years ago when tank testing 12m's they ( not sure who "they" is) claimed they tested faster when pulled backwards.

I don't think FRANCIS LEE will trim down by the stern at all at speed. I am ready to be amazed.

 

With the rudder now envisioned as turning 360 degrees we will be able to sail her backwards to see if she is faster in reverse.......

 

So when you get to the weather mark you could just back the sails and flip the rudder around and off you go.....  I used to sail on a boat where we could reverse the rudder and maneuver in reverse quite nicely.  Can't remember which boat though.



#71 Rasputin22

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:51 PM

Years ago when tank testing 12m's they ( not sure who "they" is) claimed they tested faster when pulled backwards.

I don't think FRANCIS LEE will trim down ny the stern at all at speed. I am ready to be amazed.

 

 

When wind tunnel testing was in its infancy, one of the first to put the autos of the time in for drag analysis was Preston Tucker. It was found that due to the body styles in favor at the time with long hoods and chopped off back ends, that they recorded lower drag characteristics when put in the tunnel backwards than in forward. Sort of like the old 'Cod's head and Mackerel Tail' sailing ship and yacht designs of the British until the original schooner 'America' came along and we all know how that turned out. 

 

    The story of Preston and his struggle with the status quo in Detroit is a great tale and the subject of the movie 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mL-AFSAIln0

 

     The 1948 Tucker Torpedo look fast just sitting and wind tunnel tested at a coefficient of .30, good even by todays standards. Rear engined too.

 

tucker-cars-1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

tucker-torpedo.jpg



#72 miloman

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:58 PM

     The 1948 Tucker Torpedo look fast just sitting and wind tunnel tested at a coefficient of .30, good even by todays standards. Rear engined too.

 

tucker-cars-1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

tucker-torpedo.jpg

 

The Prius has a drag coefficient of 0.27.  I'd take the hit if the Prius could look a bit more like that...



#73 Rasputin22

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:03 PM

 

Years ago when tank testing 12m's they ( not sure who "they" is) claimed they tested faster when pulled backwards.

I don't think FRANCIS LEE will trim down by the stern at all at speed. I am ready to be amazed.

 

With the rudder now envisioned as turning 360 degrees we will be able to sail her backwards to see if she is faster in reverse.......

 

So when you get to the weather mark you could just back the sails and flip the rudder around and off you go.....  I used to sail on a boat where we could reverse the rudder and maneuver in reverse quite nicely.  Can't remember which boat though.

 

    I used to race a Kirby Sonar on which you could spin the rudder 360. I loved sailing up across the start line about 45 seconds early and going about two boat lengths to windward and then turning dead downwind and putting the rudder at 90 degrees to the boat CL. If you left the sails sheeted hard, then with the 'parking brake' on you very slowly drifted back down to the proper side of the line and then center the rudder to accelerate and round up to close hauled on stbd in just a few seconds. Other boats usually would stay well away from you since it looked like you were a nutcase or had steering problems. Only worked a couple of times before they figured out what was in store at the gun. 

 

   Another time we set the spi from the back stay and it was surprising how well the boat steered with the rudder flipped 180. This was at the infamous 'Pina Colada Regatta' in Jost Van Dyke where that had just instituted a special award for the first boat to cross the finish line backwards. They of course mean't finishing from the wrong side of the line and I just took it to the next degree to cross from the wrong side in addition to sailing backwards as in stern first. The RC was impressed! 



#74 zedboy

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:03 PM

Don't forget: you muliply Cd by frontal area.

 

Prius wins by a lot there.



#75 SloopJonB

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:15 PM

Don't forget: you muliply Cd by frontal area.

 

Prius wins by a lot there.

 

Most everyone forgets that - Cd and total drag are very different things. I read years ago that a Volkswagen microbus had a lower Cd than an E-Type, due mostly to the E's upright windshield. Total drag between the two is a no brainer.



#76 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

Frontal area?

We don't have no stinking forntal area!



#77 Skol

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:14 PM

Frontal areas notwithstanding, I'm surprised nobody has asked a related question yet: 

 

Is the schooner rig obsolete?   Is there anyone launching new schooners that aren't replicas, or has various reefing trickery buried the schooner rig for good?  



#78 SemiSalt

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:56 PM

I don't think you can blame reefing trickery for the demise of the schooner. It's reliable high-tension rigging that did it, at least for the yachting-type schooners with a mainmast much taller than the foremast. Think Nina (RIP). She only had a foremast because the structure wasn't stiff enough to make her a cutter. That and perhaps some rating rule flimflam.

 

YMT said upthread that there is still an argument for the coaster-type rig with all the masts about the same height.



#79 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:18 PM

SemI;

Read both Uffa Fox's comments and Peter Johnson's ( YACHT RACING) to get some insight into NINA.



#80 Presuming Ed

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:30 PM

Is there anyone launching new schooners that aren't replicas

 

Farfarer1.jpg

 

 

Thread here: http://forums.sailin...howtopic=118399



#81 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:34 PM

SloopJonB
attachment=197215:233schooner1.jpg
Not better looking than Bob's Catari. Hard to beat the quasi classic approach of the design. Therefore well suited for a traditional Ketch rig. Essentially, the reason I like two equal masts, if balance under sail allows, is to pile up sail area.

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#82 SloopJonB

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:53 PM

One of the main reasons I would like a schooner is so I could say "Hoist the gollywobbler".



#83 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:58 PM

Yves-Marie:

That's exactly why I have the two masts on CATARI so close in height. I didn;t have much choice given the bridge clearance and the SA/D I was after.

SCIENCE!

 

Thanks for the kind words on CATARI's aesthetics. I worked hard to get it right.

 

Skoler:

Here you go. This is JAKATAN, all schooner with an all carbon rig and a modern hull form. I wouldn;t say it was "close winded" it's a schooner. But it is a hoot to sail, stiff, powerful, fast and quite nimble for its weight.

It kicks the shit out of much bigger traditional schooners on SF Bay when they have the schooner race. I'm not sure if they even allow him to race anymore.

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#84 SemiSalt

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:23 PM

SemI;

Read both Uffa Fox's comments and Peter Johnson's ( YACHT RACING) to get some insight into NINA.

 

From Best of Uffa, page 25: So Nina at the best is a cutter with a small mainsail and a large foretrangle, she cannot expect to hold a sumilar hull with a cutter rig of normal proportions to windward, for besides the proportions of her headsail to mainsail being wrong for windward work, she has the weight and windage of her foremast.

 

My comments were paraphrasing Phil Bolger. You can be sure PCB had read Uffa, and he was writing decades later.

 

From 100 Small Boat Rigs, Page 210: Rig 86 Staysail Schooner

 

The origin of the rig was thus: In 1925 John Lawrence had Burgess, Swasey and Paine design a vessel called Advance to race in a certain schooner class. He suggested that the foresail be eliminated so that better staying could be arranged for a  tall mainmast and for the headsails...Starling Burgess wrote an article about the design for Yachting magazine, concluding by pointing out that, in effect, Advance was a cutter with a superfluous and inconvenient spar, the foremast, intruded into her foretriangle. She would obviously sail much better and be easier to handle if the foremast was abolished and the mainmast moved forward to make her a straightforward, undisguised cutter.

 

Maybe Uffa was paraphrasing Burgess.

 

Poking around in the books for a few minutes, I came across several comments to the effect that the schooner rig is good for a short-handed vessel. That's the reason it was used in coasters, to keep labor costs down. One thing mentioned is that, since a boat's sails are hoisted stern-to-bow, the schooner main can be hoisted first and doused last. It can be left up with the boat at anchor. This sort of comment has mostly disappeared from discussions, I suppose mostly because sloops predominate, but also because auxiliary engines are used to keep the boat head-to-wind during the hoisting and dousing evolutions. Also, more boats are docked, and not anchored or left on a mooring.

 

I'd say that Bob didn't stint on JAKATAN's aesthetics. either.



#85 zedboy

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 06:50 AM

Skoler:

Here you go. This is JAKATAN, all schooner with an all carbon rig and a modern hull form.

 

I like the wood-coloured paint on the carbon spars.



#86 zedboy

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:20 AM

It kicks the shit out of much bigger traditional schooners on SF Bay when they have the schooner race. I'm not sure if they even allow him to race anymore.

 
Check it out, Jakatan racing!

 

http://www.youtube.c...Ay0qGs#t=11m47s

 



#87 miloman

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:32 AM

Here's a good use of a schooner rig from Phil Bolger.  A narrow boat without ballast needs to spread sail area as low as possible.

lschoonerprof.gif

 

Also, there are some very modern schooner rigs which use wingmasts. For example: http://www.sponbergy...betrotter66.htm



#88 Bob Perry

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 03:02 PM

Zedder:

Thanks for posting the vid. I didn't see JAKATAN in the results though. But considering the set and trim of the sails I'm not surprised. The sails look awful.

The spars are painted plain buff color not faux wood. Hall was very much against the faux wood paint job.

 

I never tire of looking at Bolger's work.



#89 whinging pom

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 03:12 PM

What about Mari-Cha IV? Pretty whizzy for a schooner.

 

MariChaIV-21.jpg



#90 Bob Perry

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 03:21 PM

Whinger:

Yeah, that is really sweet. Look at that wake!



#91 Skol

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 07:01 PM

It kicks the shit out of much bigger traditional schooners on SF Bay when they have the schooner race. I'm not sure if they even allow him to race anymore.

 
Check it out, Jakatan racing!

 

http://www.youtube.c...Ay0qGs#t=11m47s

 

RIP Alderaban.  Freda B can often be seen out and about.  I need to figure out how to catch a ride on her someday.   

 

 

Yves-Marie:

That's exactly why I have the two masts on CATARI so close in height. I didn;t have much choice given the bridge clearance and the SA/D I was after.

SCIENCE!

 

Thanks for the kind words on CATARI's aesthetics. I worked hard to get it right.

 

Skoler:

Here you go. This is JAKATAN, all schooner with an all carbon rig and a modern hull form. I wouldn;t say it was "close winded" it's a schooner. But it is a hoot to sail, stiff, powerful, fast and quite nimble for its weight.

It kicks the shit out of much bigger traditional schooners on SF Bay when they have the schooner race. I'm not sure if they even allow him to race anymore.

 

I had completely forgotten about Jakatan.  I remember reading about her a couple years ago.  It's a shame that the owner couldn't be talked into the square top sails.  

 

If my last ditch effort to win the startup lottery works, Bob, I want a boat long, lean, and built with a schooner rig to shatter the SSS Transpac (singlehanded) record.   Wood epoxy composite hull, a la Rage, with glossy black topsides, teak decks, CF spars and blood red, square top laminate sails.  She will be my dark mare charging at full speed over the desolate and loveless expanse of the Pacific.  Children will gasp in awe.  Women will swoon.   Sporty boat sailors will be consumed with envy.   I will storm the finish line with my right hand on the helm, a fine scotch in my left, and with a fire in my soul.  The cold tendrils of water triumphantly peeling off the bow shall merely be an extension of my sea-worn senses, and my face will beam not with pride, but with satisfaction.   

 

 

*ahem*  

 

hey, a guy can dream, right?



#92 Skol

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 07:06 PM

What about Mari-Cha IV? Pretty whizzy for a schooner.

 

MariChaIV-21.jpg

 

*whistle*  That's all business.   Look at her go! 



#93 Bob Perry

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 07:24 PM

Skols:

Ironically, after seeing your video, the flat angle gaffs were the owner's idea as he wanted the rig to be reminiscent of the SF Bay scow schooners. There is one in the vid. I had tried to sell him on main and fores'l like MARI CHA IV. In fact I drew one sail plan like that. The client hated it.



#94 SloopJonB

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:35 PM

 

It kicks the shit out of much bigger traditional schooners on SF Bay when they have the schooner race. I'm not sure if they even allow him to race anymore.

 
Check it out, Jakatan racing!

 

http://www.youtube.c...Ay0qGs#t=11m47s

 

RIP Alderaban.  Freda B can often be seen out and about.  I need to figure out how to catch a ride on her someday.   

 

 

>Yves-Marie:

That's exactly why I have the two masts on CATARI so close in height. I didn;t have much choice given the bridge clearance and the SA/D I was after.

SCIENCE!

 

Thanks for the kind words on CATARI's aesthetics. I worked hard to get it right.

 

Skoler:

Here you go. This is JAKATAN, all schooner with an all carbon rig and a modern hull form. I wouldn;t say it was "close winded" it's a schooner. But it is a hoot to sail, stiff, powerful, fast and quite nimble for its weight.

It kicks the shit out of much bigger traditional schooners on SF Bay when they have the schooner race. I'm not sure if they even allow him to race anymore.

 

I had completely forgotten about Jakatan.  I remember reading about her a couple years ago.  It's a shame that the owner couldn't be talked into the square top sails.  

 

If my last ditch effort to win the startup lottery works, Bob, I want a boat long, lean, and built with a schooner rig to shatter the SSS Transpac (singlehanded) record.   Wood epoxy composite hull, a la Rage, with glossy black topsides, teak decks, CF spars and blood red, square top laminate sails.  She will be my dark mare charging at full speed over the desolate and loveless expanse of the Pacific.  Children will gasp in awe.  Women will swoon.   Sporty boat sailors will be consumed with envy.   I will storm the finish line with my right hand on the helm, a fine scotch in my left, and with a fire in my soul.  The cold tendrils of water triumphantly peeling off the bow shall merely be an extension of my sea-worn senses, and my face will beam not with pride, but with satisfaction.   

 

 

*ahem*  

 

hey, a guy can dream, right?

 

 

What will you do on a dark & stormy night?



#95 Skol

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 04:19 PM

What will you do on a dark & stormy night?

 

Drinking tea and watching the waves crash over the bow from inside the cabin whilst furiously shaking my arms to Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody at full volume.    



#96 Skol

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 04:23 PM

Skols:

Ironically, after seeing your video, the flat angle gaffs were the owner's idea as he wanted the rig to be reminiscent of the SF Bay scow schooners. There is one in the vid. I had tried to sell him on main and fores'l like MARI CHA IV. In fact I drew one sail plan like that. The client hated it.

 

the end result is indeed a beautiful yacht.   horses for courses.  or something.  



#97 curm

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:37 PM

Here is Maia, a Herreshoff Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 at anchor in New Harbor on Block Island.  She's one reason why ketches should never become obsolete.

 

4231775-T150U.jpg



#98 SemiSalt

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:41 PM

Here's a good use of a schooner rig from Phil Bolger.  A narrow boat without ballast needs to spread sail area as low as possible.

lschoonerprof.gif

 

Bolger used schooner rigs like this in several boats. He described the pros and cons in his book 30 Odd Boats. He was talking about a 39' steel sharpie, but the proportions of the rig are the same.

 

These schooners with the foremast far forward look odd to most people, but they work very well. The drawbacks - lack of working space around the foremast and too much weight out in the bow - aren't overriding in an inshore cruiser. Note the clustering of the centers of sail area in with various combinations of sails. The heavy-weather rig is full foresail and double-reefed main. The rig is really a cat-schooner with a jib added for balance with a big mainsail. Back when Cape Cod cats were hotly raced,  they all sprouted bowsprits and jibs, not because the jibs helped them much, but because, with jibs, they could use longer main booms and still steer.

 

In schooners with less than 1,000 square feet of sail, it seems to me that this rig obviously works better in every way than the more usual type with a big foretriangle and a small foresail. That type of schooner is a close relative of a cutter. The object is to sail with a smaller mainsail than the cutter's, but to cut up the foretriangle with the foremast so the sail set there will stand without the exorbitant rigging tensions a cutter needs to be close-winded. Nowadays the tensions can be dealt with routinely, so it could be argued that medium-sized schooners no longer make any sense at all. I wouldn't go as far as that myself, although I do think that the staysail schooner is obsolete to the dubious extent that it ever made sense. Anything a staysail schooner can do, a cutter can do better, more easily, and more cheaply.



#99 blurocketsmate

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 03:45 AM

This is JAKATAN, all schooner with an all carbon rig and a modern hull form. I wouldn;t say it was "close winded" it's a schooner. But it is a hoot to sail, stiff, powerful, fast and quite nimble for its weight.

 

I saw Jakatan a few years ago at Jesperson's (?) with sails up at the dock -- a very nice looking boat, salty but modern too. 



#100 Bob Perry

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:10 PM

Thank you mate.






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