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LVC Finals RACE 6.............


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#1 Enzedel 92

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:53 PM

Here.



#2 Abraxas3

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:49 PM

I found this weather forecast:

Today: WSW wind 12 to 17 kt increasing to 20 to 25 kt in the afternoon. Patchy fog before 11am.

http://forecast.weat....44949340820312

 

Let's hope they can get the race going before the wind starts howling into the 20's  :P



#3 savoir

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:16 PM

Another lousy start by LR.  They pulled away wayyyyy to far at about -10s leaving themselves no choice but to pinch and squeeze all the way to mark 1.  All ETNZ had to do was crack sheets a little and WHOOOOOSH !  Bye bye

 

SIGH !



#4 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:20 PM

ETNZ's decision in that prestart to tack instead of to gybe and follow LR was very good.

Complete domination. They are just blowing LR off the water.

#5 Justin Chisholm

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:21 PM

Our video interviews with skippers Max Sirena and Dean Barker post race today: http://goo.gl/bsUSZ0



#6 Kaihoe

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:21 PM

^^^ yeah sad to see really - would like closer racing.



#7 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:23 PM

Really keen to watch the portion on VE when ETNZ hit damn near 30 foiling upwind to see how much they had to fall off to do that. By JN's video it sure didn't look like much - wow.

#8 uflux

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:27 PM

Yeah they showed the virtual eye track after the end of the race.... VMG looked very good!!!



#9 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:29 PM

^ Dang, missed that. Did it include the advantage line numbers?

#10 1SmokinWeed

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:32 PM

Really keen to watch the portion on VE when ETNZ hit damn near 30 foiling upwind to see how much they had to fall off to do that. By JN's video it sure didn't look like much - wow.

 

I don't know how to tease the angle and VMG data out of virtualeye, but I watched that section.  The second period of foiling on port tack they were not doing as well on the advantage line as they were when they weren't foiling.  Their lead basically increased steadily but that time it hung really steady and didn't climb like it had been.

 

The first time they foiled upwind on starboard (I assume they were foiling doing 25 knots) they were growing their lead much more quickly than they had been. 

 

So it seems it was working one time and not another.  The question is which is the better representation, as the slower of the two had the better relative VMG to LR.



#11 Capt. K

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:33 PM

VE shows they hit 29.2knts upwind!   Amazing!   

 

Here's JN's video. For some reason it isn't showing up for me in his thread:

 



#12 hoom

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:35 PM

Dammit, I keep missing these make up races.

 

While I had assumed that ETNZ was going to pull out the upwind foiling bit at some point to get across current or something, I was pretty impressed when both ETNZ & LR pulled it out the first time they got round the bottom mark close together.

The (badly kept) secret is out of the bag now so they might as well use it.

 

27kt upwind in was it 15kt or 17kt? Holy crap.



#13 Christian Nally

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:36 PM

I think ETNZ should 'throw' the next start and arrive at that first mark 1 boat length behind Italy, so that they can get a taste of seeking a passing lane. Call it R&D.



#14 Enzedel 92

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:41 PM

could this light wind race be a preview of the AC fina.

#15 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:41 PM

They showed some killer video from the looking-back-under cam during that uw foiling, not enough, but enough to realize they have height control at least as good as when foiling dw. Important since you want to be just barely, barely out.

Impressive, best uwf sequence during a race so far, by far.

#16 hoom

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:41 PM

Oh my! So 29kt upwind in 15/17 against the tide even :wub: :ph34r:



#17 uflux

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:41 PM

^ have a look on virtual eye..Didn't do it for very long but while they were they were rolling out the advantage meters while they were...



#18 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:43 PM


^ have a look on virtual eye..Didn't do it for very long but while they were they were rolling out the advantage meters while they were...


JN's vid shows it lasting an almost eternity. 25 seconds maybe? http://www.sail-worl...g-upwind/113571

#19 BronzeWing

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:58 PM

Can anyone please point me to the site that had all the data from the boats for each race. Have seen it before but forgot to bookmark it.

The stuff I have seen shows some real interesting data and would love to see the actual heading diffs between foiling and not.

 

thanks



#20 kwikfisher

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:02 AM


^ have a look on virtual eye..Didn't do it for very long but while they were they were rolling out the advantage meters while they were...


JN's vid shows it lasting an almost eternity. 25 seconds maybe? http://www.sail-worl...g-upwind/113571

Yup. Jus a few days more practice of this and they'll be consistent at will. Surprising, even at barely moderate windspeeds.

Trooper told me of several new tricks yet to refine. And so the show goes on.. LR tried well and have improved heaps also foiling to ww. Still think ET is sandbagging most of the time. The sudden bursts of speed difference are telltalles do you think? The downwind low angle sailing is awesome, putting on hundreds of metres gap at will, still sailing at similar speed. About a 1 kilometre diff in distance sailed is huge. EYHO defender.

K



#21 rusto

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:06 AM

Can anyone please point me to the site that had all the data from the boats for each race. Have seen it before but forgot to bookmark it.

The stuff I have seen shows some real interesting data and would love to see the actual heading diffs between foiling and not.

 

thanks

Here you go:

The chatter file has start and rounding times etc

http://noticeboard.a....com/Race-Data/



#22 db7

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:07 AM

Time to introduce a DRS zone, pit stops and tires that shred to make the racing aspect at least artificially interesting.



#23 Capt. K

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:08 AM


^ have a look on virtual eye..Didn't do it for very long but while they were they were rolling out the advantage meters while they were...


JN's vid shows it lasting an almost eternity. 25 seconds maybe? http://www.sail-worl...g-upwind/113571

 

So they're saying 30kts was the speed on water?  I assume VE shows SOG so that would make sense due to the 1.9kts flood tide. Wow!



#24 overdraft

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:12 AM

am i the only person who thinks that Luna Rossa could have stuffed New Zealand up above the starting line in this race? and even if they thought maybe it might not work, wouldn't it be worth a try when you know you can't compete on speed alone?

#25 BronzeWing

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:14 AM

Can anyone please point me to the site that had all the data from the boats for each race. Have seen it before but forgot to bookmark it.

The stuff I have seen shows some real interesting data and would love to see the actual heading diffs between foiling and not.

 

thanks

Here you go:

The chatter file has start and rounding times etc

http://noticeboard.a....com/Race-Data/

Thank you sooo much



#26 starsinker

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:16 AM

The foiling upwind is cool but the lower angles downwind seem to be the biggest difference between the boats.



#27 savoir

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:17 AM

No

 

Luffing them before the start would have been an easy ploy.  Wipe out most of their speed then bear away and start with speed.  A clever move like that could keep LR in front until 1/2 mile past mark 1.



#28 Rohanoz

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:19 AM

am i the only person who thinks that Luna Rossa could have stuffed New Zealand up above the starting line in this race? and even if they thought maybe it might not work, wouldn't it be worth a try when you know you can't compete on speed alone?

 

At about 30secs to go, the off the boat commentary had Rod Davis say that LR couldn't make the boat from where they were. 



#29 Enzedel 92

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:26 AM



^ have a look on virtual eye..Didn't do it for very long but while they were they were rolling out the advantage meters while they were...

JN's vid shows it lasting an almost eternity. 25 seconds maybe? http://www.sail-worl...g-upwind/113571
 
So they're saying 30kts was the speed on water?  I assume VE shows SOG so that would make sense due to the 1.9kts flood tide. Wow!

Does VE show VMG

#30 BronzeWing

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:32 AM

The data is very scary in upwind foiling. All the theories are in Mythbusters terms "Busted" They are not losing much if any in heading and at times are actually pointing higher.

 

Open the data file and go to around  line 3350 and look at the heading, COG and SOG fields

 

The intensity just keeps ramping up or am I not interpreting the data correctly?



#31 Monster Mash

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:33 AM

am i the only person who thinks that Luna Rossa could have stuffed New Zealand up above the starting line in this race? and even if they thought maybe it might not work, wouldn't it be worth a try when you know you can't compete on speed alone?

 

At about 30secs to go, the off the boat commentary had Rod Davis say that LR couldn't make the boat from where they were. 

 

 

Might want to blame the tactician for that



#32 Kiwing

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:34 AM

and this is not interesting, enthralling and down right fantastic !!

 

Wait til you see a fack !!



#33 Sailbydate

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:46 AM

Time to introduce a DRS zone, pit stops and tires that shred to make the racing aspect at least artificially interesting.

How about a pub race? Plenty of waterfront bars to run into and then back on board for the next leg.  :)



#34 ezyb

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:48 AM

Loved DB's comment that they were just "mucking about" on the upwind leg



#35 uflux

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:33 AM

Yeah a bit more wind and ETNZ will really be in the upwind foil zone... First time it has looked a serious goer in terms of vmg...Looking at the camera under the bow didn't show bad leeway either...



#36 Enzedel 92

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:45 AM

Whats with DB's staying awake or falling asleep comments?

 

Thats 2 days in a row he referenced that in the post race interview.  Is it an inside joke?



#37 axolotl

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:56 AM

All fun to ruminate, but ETNZ was faster by 30 seconds a leg.  No way good calls concerning starts, current and pressure can make a difference.  ETNZ has a better aerodynamic and daggerboard control system, and are tight against the boat's ultimate performance possibilities.

 

And all this moaning about 20 minute races instead of three hour marathons; do you want to waste your time to see a boat finish over 30 minutes behind?

 

New Zealand has the better boat and crew.



#38 snaerk

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:57 AM

29 knots SOG upwind from TNZ in 17 knots of breez, pushing a bit of tyd, and for

 

seeminglee an eternittee  . . .

 

(hed in hands here)

 

I hav a feeling we ar going to be looking at a blackwosh here, fellers . . .

 

 

TNZ aer not going to sit on there lorrils between now and Sept 7 while OR ar in disarray

 

And its hard to see TNZ having an arkilleys heel 

 

(I gess we havent seen them in 5-8 knots ? ? ? he sed, hopefully )


Edited by snaerk, 24 August 2013 - 02:00 AM.


#39 hoom

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:06 AM

Sad seeing Max & Chris being so down on their speed in these post race interviews.

 

I mean, yes they are obviously slower but we do see them hitting very similar speeds a lot of the time.

Hard to stay positive I'm sure but they really seem to have given up which is a shame.

Like others said in a few places a more aggressive move might have put ETNZ behind, even if its only temporary its still better than just sitting in ETNZ wake.



#40 ianz

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:16 AM

Sad seeing Max & Chris being so down on their speed in these post race interviews.

 

I mean, yes they are obviously slower but we do see them hitting very similar speeds a lot of the time.

Hard to stay positive I'm sure but they really seem to have given up which is a shame.

Like others said in a few places a more aggressive move might have put ETNZ behind, even if its only temporary its still better than just sitting in ETNZ wake.

They sure have. Draper: "we're going to give it our all in the last two races." Not the next two - the last two. Says it all.

 

I'm not having the same dream I was yesterday about ETNZ's speed any more. Go ETNZ!



#41 the loose cannon

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:19 AM

yes its boring and the world feed commentary is not able to help that - althought I think Kenny is doing a GREAT job.  But I put on the boat 2 feed for today's shindig, and it was a totally immersive experience.  Great insight into the communication - big props to the tactician, and God bless GD - that guy is working as hard or harder than any guy on the boat.  I think if the only job on the boat was to shovel sh*# for the whole race he would do it better than anyone could just so that he could be on the boat.



#42 ~Stingray~

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:27 AM

ETNZ's downwind angles, even after accounting for how they can keep the S so shallow because of how high their floor speed is thru flybes, is just wicked.

LR's setup is just not even in that same game, it's a reasonably fast boat on some angles but ETNZ is just killing them where it matters, VMG. That was true even before the upwind crucifixion happened starting today.

#43 Sailbydate

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:29 AM

yes its boring and the world feed commentary is not able to help that - althought I think Kenny is doing a GREAT job.  But I put on the boat 2 feed for today's shindig, and it was a totally immersive experience.  Great insight into the communication - big props to the tactician, and God bless GD - that guy is working as hard or harder than any guy on the boat.  I think if the only job on the boat was to shovel sh*# for the whole race he would do it better than anyone could just so that he could be on the boat.

+1 GD is a legend.



#44 Sailbydate

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:34 AM

ETNZ's downwind angles, even after accounting for how they can keep the S so shallow because of how high their floor speed is thru flybes, is just wicked.

LR's setup is just not even in that same game, it's a reasonably fast boat on some angles but ETNZ is just killing them where it matters, VMG. That was true even before the upwind crucifixion happened starting today.

Well, Stinger. You're showing no bias and calling it as you see it. All credit to you. I'm impressed.



#45 MattyB73

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:44 AM

I don't care what the people who need to stick the boot in say.

 

This is awesome.

 

Bring on the AC finals.



#46 fireball

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:45 AM

Time to introduce a DRS zone, pit stops and tires that shred to make the racing aspect at least artificially interesting.

DRS, KERS and the frequent pit stops make overtaking much easier. Remember those races about 10 years ago where the car that lead around the first corner usually went on to win the race.

Foiling catamarans don't seem to have this problem. There are plenty of opportunities to pass the leading boat.

So far we've had big differences in speed. Both with LR over AR and with ETNZ over LR. If we get 2 well matched boats then we should see some overtaking.

It's hard to overtake in traditional match racing in keelboats. Maybe some people like to watch one boat blocking the other, but I don't find it particularly exciting. This applies both to competing and to watching.

#47 Redsled

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:04 AM

yes its boring and the world feed commentary is not able to help that - althought I think Kenny is doing a GREAT job.  But I put on the boat 2 feed for today's shindig, and it was a totally immersive experience.  Great insight into the communication - big props to the tactician, and God bless GD - that guy is working as hard or harder than any guy on the boat.  I think if the only job on the boat was to shovel sh*# for the whole race he would do it better than anyone could just so that he could be on the boat.

 

How do you change feeds?  Is that in VE or something?



#48 jaysper

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:06 AM

Sad seeing Max & Chris being so down on their speed in these post race interviews.

 

I mean, yes they are obviously slower but we do see them hitting very similar speeds a lot of the time.

Hard to stay positive I'm sure but they really seem to have given up which is a shame.

Like others said in a few places a more aggressive move might have put ETNZ behind, even if its only temporary its still better than just sitting in ETNZ wake.

 

Pretty hard to stay positive when you know the only realistic chance of proceeding to the AC is for the other team to break down another 6 times.

Yes they are hitting similar speeds at times, but not as consistently and at poorer angles.

Its a shame to see a team that most Kiwis like so much go down like this, but the smart money has always been on this.



#49 jaysper

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:10 AM

ETNZ's downwind angles, even after accounting for how they can keep the S so shallow because of how high their floor speed is thru flybes, is just wicked.

LR's setup is just not even in that same game, it's a reasonably fast boat on some angles but ETNZ is just killing them where it matters, VMG. That was true even before the upwind crucifixion happened starting today.

Well, Stinger. You're showing no bias and calling it as you see it. All credit to you. I'm impressed.

 

If the AC were won on how slick you run your campaign (hitting dates, minimal incidents and not getting into any trouble), then ETNZ would win this bad boy by miles (they still may).

But right now, we know fark all about the Oracle boat and its capabilities relative to ETNZ.

I have always said that one of these boats is going to get thumped and if I were forced to lay money, I would place my bet on that boat (getting thumped) being Oracle.

But unless someone sticks a gun to my head, my $$$ stay firmly in my pocket.



#50 KiwiJoker

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:11 AM

yes its boring and the world feed commentary is not able to help that - althought I think Kenny is doing a GREAT job.  But I put on the boat 2 feed for today's shindig, and it was a totally immersive experience.  Great insight into the communication - big props to the tactician, and God bless GD - that guy is working as hard or harder than any guy on the boat.  I think if the only job on the boat was to shovel sh*# for the whole race he would do it better than anyone could just so that he could be on the boat.

 

How do you change feeds?  Is that in VE or something?

 

If you watch using Virtual Eye you have the choice of listening to the feed from either competitor.

 

I watch the live video on my TV with sound off.  Then on my iPad I can follow VE and choose the ETNZ live sound.

 

You can also pick up a lot from watching the continuous VE boat speed readouts.



#51 Glenn

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:20 AM

 

ETNZ's downwind angles, even after accounting for how they can keep the S so shallow because of how high their floor speed is thru flybes, is just wicked.

LR's setup is just not even in that same game, it's a reasonably fast boat on some angles but ETNZ is just killing them where it matters, VMG. That was true even before the upwind crucifixion happened starting today.

Well, Stinger. You're showing no bias and calling it as you see it. All credit to you. I'm impressed.

 

If the AC were won on how slick you run your campaign (hitting dates, minimal incidents and not getting into any trouble), then ETNZ would win this bad boy by miles (they still may).

But right now, we know fark all about the Oracle boat and its capabilities relative to ETNZ.

I have always said that one of these boats is going to get thumped and if I were forced to lay money, I would place my bet on that boat (getting thumped) being Oracle.

But unless someone sticks a gun to my head, my $$$ stay firmly in my pocket.

 

Same here, although if Stingers gave me the money, I would have a dabble



#52 uflux

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:40 AM

 

yes its boring and the world feed commentary is not able to help that - althought I think Kenny is doing a GREAT job.  But I put on the boat 2 feed for today's shindig, and it was a totally immersive experience.  Great insight into the communication - big props to the tactician, and God bless GD - that guy is working as hard or harder than any guy on the boat.  I think if the only job on the boat was to shovel sh*# for the whole race he would do it better than anyone could just so that he could be on the boat.

 

How do you change feeds?  Is that in VE or something?

 

If you watch using Virtual Eye you have the choice of listening to the feed from either competitor.

 

I watch the live video on my TV with sound off.  Then on my iPad I can follow VE and choose the ETNZ live sound.

 

You can also pick up a lot from watching the continuous VE boat speed readouts.

 

That's a good idea...



#53 kwikfisher

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:46 AM

 

 

ETNZ's downwind angles, even after accounting for how they can keep the S so shallow because of how high their floor speed is thru flybes, is just wicked.

LR's setup is just not even in that same game, it's a reasonably fast boat on some angles but ETNZ is just killing them where it matters, VMG. That was true even before the upwind crucifixion happened starting today.

Well, Stinger. You're showing no bias and calling it as you see it. All credit to you. I'm impressed.

 

If the AC were won on how slick you run your campaign (hitting dates, minimal incidents and not getting into any trouble), then ETNZ would win this bad boy by miles (they still may).

But right now, we know fark all about the Oracle boat and its capabilities relative to ETNZ.

I have always said that one of these boats is going to get thumped and if I were forced to lay money, I would place my bet on that boat (getting thumped) being Oracle.

But unless someone sticks a gun to my head, my $$$ stay firmly in my pocket.

 

Same here, although if Stingers gave me the money, I would have a dabble

U R so right about that VMG. IMHO it looked like about 20 degree downwind sailing angle to true wind on virtual eye. . Angle seems to get tighter by the week, but losing very little in straight line speed.!

Go the et boys tomorrow if wind allows, to finish that job and earn the cup finals spot.

BTW why the shortened legs today. A 10 mile course? WTH?

K



#54 kwikfisher

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:53 AM

Really keen to watch the portion on VE when ETNZ hit damn near 30 foiling upwind to see how much they had to fall off to do that. By JN's video it sure didn't look like much - wow.

 

I don't know how to tease the angle and VMG data out of virtualeye, but I watched that section.  The second period of foiling on port tack they were not doing as well on the advantage line as they were when they weren't foiling.  Their lead basically increased steadily but that time it hung really steady and didn't climb like it had been.

 

The first time they foiled upwind on starboard (I assume they were foiling doing 25 knots) they were growing their lead much more quickly than they had been. 

 

So it seems it was working one time and not another.  The question is which is the better representation, as the slower of the two had the better relative VMG to LR.

Hi. Yes have noticed this before, and was wondering if a dagger is is allowed to be slightly offset by a few degrees. Bruce Farr tried self gybing dagger boards years ago. Other reason might be tide influence.Or maybe some more sandbagging.?

Cheers

K



#55 zillafreak

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:19 AM

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine. He couldn't even beat Artemis with 9 days of practice ffs. The only remote chance they have at beating TNZ is to ace the start. Lose lose lose lose the start. Uh OK.

#56 Daz Pettus

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:29 AM

ETNZ is the game changer because the crew work is so tight - just like the All Blacks. Book your ticket for Auckland.



#57 chocoa

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:36 AM

Does John Kostecki's local knowledge tilt the odds to Oracle?


Seems to me,  the one time Prada round a different gate than ETNZ in (race 4) they gain big ground.


#58 Indio

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:40 AM

I'd like to see NZL5 lose the start tomorrow morning and let LR lead into the first mark and then see if they can find a passing lane downwind and upwind. ETNZ can afford to lose a race and still maintain a 2-win lead while they engage in some opposed training.



#59 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:43 AM

Did TNZ used their secret weapon ? 29 kts upwind in 17kts wind is nothing less than amazing.

Oviously we don't know their vmg and how much OR is doing.

 

However if OR is still around 22kts in the same conditions, they will be crushed.

 

First race between TNZ and OR will be very interesting, and I 'll be there. However I hope the kiwis will push OR in the ropes, in 30 kts of wind.

I still think we are due for another pp, hopefully with no casualty.



#60 minimumfuss

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:57 AM

Agree. I think VE had trouble calculating advantage, when LR also tacked onto port the numbers rolled upwards way too fast all of a sudden, even allowing for the tack. Seemed to be pointing as high or higher than LR while foiling. Amazing to watch. Hope ETNZ have more secret spooky stuff come match time. OR will be poring over this with dismay? Or satisfaction? Cat out of the bag too early? Sandbagging? Oh the intrigue...

 

 

The data is very scary in upwind foiling. All the theories are in Mythbusters terms "Busted" They are not losing much if any in heading and at times are actually pointing higher.

 

Open the data file and go to around  line 3350 and look at the heading, COG and SOG fields

 

The intensity just keeps ramping up or am I not interpreting the data correctly?



#61 Indio

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:06 AM

Did TNZ used their secret weapon ? 29 kts upwind in 17kts wind is nothing less than amazing.

Oviously we don't know their vmg and how much OR is doing.

 

However if OR is still around 22kts in the same conditions, they will be crushed.

 

First race between TNZ and OR will be very interesting, and I 'll be there. However I hope the kiwis will push OR in the ropes, in 30 kts of wind.

I still think we are due for another pp, hopefully with no casualty.

Attached File  NZL5 UW Foiling.PNG   705.53K   87 downloads



#62 NACRADUDE

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:07 AM

Yea, the Kiwis are kicking some serious ass. Well done in my opinion. The funny part is ED and Clean talking so much shit, when in fact neither one of them could as much as scrub the shit stains out of any of these sailors shorts makes me laugh out loud. Douche canoes, both of them, is putting it mildly 



#63 jaysper

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:11 AM

Did TNZ used their secret weapon ? 29 kts upwind in 17kts wind is nothing less than amazing.

Oviously we don't know their vmg and how much OR is doing.

 

However if OR is still around 22kts in the same conditions, they will be crushed.

 

First race between TNZ and OR will be very interesting, and I 'll be there. However I hope the kiwis will push OR in the ropes, in 30 kts of wind.

I still think we are due for another pp, hopefully with no casualty.

 

I think they only showed SOME of their secret weapon TC, still believe they have a rather large sandpit on board while racing LR.

Have been saying for a while that upwind will be ETNZ's strength NOT Oracle's, but I think I am about the only one that has that opinion.



#64 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:12 AM

Did TNZ used their secret weapon ? 29 kts upwind in 17kts wind is nothing less than amazing.

Oviously we don't know their vmg and how much OR is doing.

 

However if OR is still around 22kts in the same conditions, they will be crushed.

 

First race between TNZ and OR will be very interesting, and I 'll be there. However I hope the kiwis will push OR in the ropes, in 30 kts of wind.

I still think we are due for another pp, hopefully with no casualty.

attachicon.gifNZL5 UW Foiling.PNG

What about the Bay drama Queens who made such a big deal of the local 15 ft monster waves, the 40 kts winds, the amazing 3kts ebb tide ?

 

Seems that Mrs SWS flicked herself :)



#65 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:14 AM

Did TNZ used their secret weapon ? 29 kts upwind in 17kts wind is nothing less than amazing.

Oviously we don't know their vmg and how much OR is doing.

 

However if OR is still around 22kts in the same conditions, they will be crushed.

 

First race between TNZ and OR will be very interesting, and I 'll be there. However I hope the kiwis will push OR in the ropes, in 30 kts of wind.

I still think we are due for another pp, hopefully with no casualty.

 

I think they only showed SOME of their secret weapon TC, still believe they have a rather large sandpit on board while racing LR.

Have been saying for a while that upwind will be ETNZ's strength NOT Oracle's, but I think I am about the only one that has that opinion.

Honestly I really want to see OR in strong wind in their september boat. After all, didn't Larry say he expected the Cup to be a bit dangerous ? :D



#66 Indio

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:20 AM

On second thoughts, ETNZ will want to wrap this up on the 24th to give themselves 2 weeks for more fine-tuning and go-faster plug-ins.



#67 bruno

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:32 AM

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine. He couldn't even beat Artemis with 9 days of practice ffs. The only remote chance they have at beating TNZ is to ace the start. Lose lose lose lose the start. Uh OK.


Beating up on CD is not going to make LR faster, he had a good start and then got rolled by the faster boat today, speed is smarter. As for the timing issue the other day, I know plenty of helms who rely on their crew for timing, I think the fact that having his watch off 4 s. was an issue speaks to some larger issues rather than to hos competence. He is plenty good, that is how he won the spot. I think the basic flaw was LR buying the scond hand plans from NZ rather than Vplp, that was where they outsmarted themselves.

#68 dogwatch

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:41 AM

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine.

Not sure I saw that wrong much with LR's start. They started earlier and faster at the unfavoured end. Reaching performance, not so good. If you swapped the starting positions of the two boats, the outcome at mark 1 would have been no different.

Btw, what makes you think Draper is calling the start tactics anyway? He is "helm" not "skipper".

#69 dogwatch

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:43 AM

I think the basic flaw was LR buying the scond hand plans from NZ rather than Vplp, that was where they outsmarted themselves.

The basic flaw was starting one year late, because they had to wait for Prada's IPO to complete. The link to ETNZ was the only giddy-up available to get them into the game at that stage.

#70 Barnyb

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:44 AM

I think that LR are going ok but the real issue is that they are up against a very good competitor.

 

This TNZ campaign is absolute top quality and will be the template for excellence in both sailing and business projects in years to come.



#71 bruno

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:47 AM

I think that LR are going ok but the real issue is that they are up against a very good competitor.
 
This TNZ campaign is absolute top quality and will be the template for excellence in both sailing and business projects in years to come.


bigger brighter better

#72 davethesailor

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:54 AM

go the all blacks.



#73 RGH

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:57 AM

:ph34r:  can anyone tell me what the wind speed limits will be in AC ??



and yes go the mighty AB's



#74 dogwatch

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:01 AM

Does[/size] John Kostecki's local knowledge tilt the odds to Oracle?[/size]

No. I've done a lot of sailing in the Solent which has strong tides and tricky wind effects in the interaction between mainland, island and three channels. Local knowledge doesn't stop international teams who do their homework coming here and winning.

#75 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:02 AM

:ph34r:  can anyone tell me what the wind speed limits will be in AC ??

Which one ?

 

Protocol ? former CoR ? IM-USCG? or the one possibly negociated with the new CoR ?



#76 dogwatch

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:05 AM

Our video interviews with skippers Max Sirena and Dean Barker post race today: http://goo.gl/bsUSZ0

A good interview with Sirena, well worth listening. Barker says nothing & looks like he needs a holiday (or at least a good sleep).

#77 Nutta

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:05 AM

ETNZ's downwind angles, even after accounting for how they can keep the S so shallow because of how high their floor speed is thru flybes, is just wicked.

LR's setup is just not even in that same game, it's a reasonably fast boat on some angles but ETNZ is just killing them where it matters, VMG. That was true even before the upwind crucifixion happened starting today.


You've been a little ray of sunshine for the last 24hrs.

What have you done with Stingers??? 8)

#78 Headntac

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:09 AM

and this is not interesting, enthralling and down right fantastic !!

 

Wait til you see a f........?

Fixed,no need to swear...

 

We know whit you mean.... :wacko:



#79 Indio

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:14 AM

:ph34r:  can anyone tell me what the wind speed limits will be in AC ??



and yes go the mighty AB's

21.1. Unless the Race Officer considers conditions too rough, the race committee intends to start 
races when the approximate average true wind speed is between:
a: 5 and 20 knots during July 2013;
b: 5 and 21 knots during August 2013; and
c: 5 to 23 knots during September 2013;


#80 Indio

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:20 AM

Our video interviews with skippers Max Sirena and Dean Barker post race today: http://goo.gl/bsUSZ0

A good interview with Sirena, well worth listening. Barker says nothing & looks like he needs a holiday (or at least a good sleep).

On the contrary, I thought Barker was paying Chisholm great respect trying to answer his questions as best he can without letting on too much...



#81 dogwatch

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:24 AM

^

We are actually saying the same thing.

#82 jaysper

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:42 AM

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine.

Not sure I saw that wrong much with LR's start. They started earlier and faster at the unfavoured end. Reaching performance, not so good. If you swapped the starting positions of the two boats, the outcome at mark 1 would have been no different.

Btw, what makes you think Draper is calling the start tactics anyway? He is "helm" not "skipper".

 

Thats how I saw it, I was initially shocked at Deano not pulling the trigger earlier and then doubly shocked when he was still going just as fast at the start line as Draper.

Finally was triply shocked when he just rolled straight over the top of them..

 

The acceleration and top speed on the reach is incredible c.f. LR. Pulled the trigger a second or two after LR and 500m later are 10 seconds ahead. Huh???  :huh:

 

I don't see what the hell Draper could possibly do. He's tried windward, leeward and it makes no difference. Short of firing a couple of torpedoes at ETNZ, he is pushing shit up hill.



#83 vmg

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:46 AM

 I'm not convinced that he was at the unfavourable end, especially as LR was ahead by half a boat length.

I had them down as winning that start and being first at the mark.

 

The Kiwi boat just went faster!

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine.

Not sure I saw that wrong much with LR's start. They started earlier and faster at the unfavoured end. Reaching performance, not so good. If you swapped the starting positions of the two boats, the outcome at mark 1 would have been no different.

Btw, what makes you think Draper is calling the start tactics anyway? He is "helm" not "skipper".


#84 Sailbydate

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:48 AM

 

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine.

Not sure I saw that wrong much with LR's start. They started earlier and faster at the unfavoured end. Reaching performance, not so good. If you swapped the starting positions of the two boats, the outcome at mark 1 would have been no different.

Btw, what makes you think Draper is calling the start tactics anyway? He is "helm" not "skipper".

 

Thats how I saw it, I was initially shocked at Deano not pulling the trigger earlier and then doubly shocked when he was still going just as fast at the start line as Draper.

Finally was triply shocked when he just rolled straight over the top of them..

 

The acceleration and top speed on the reach is incredible c.f. LR. Pulled the trigger a second or two after LR and 500m later are 10 seconds ahead. Huh???  :huh:

 

I don't see what the hell Draper could possibly do. He's tried windward, leeward and it makes no difference. Short of firing a couple of torpedoes at ETNZ, he is pushing shit up hill.

He could try mixing it up pre-start, looking to force a penalty on ETNZ.

 

What has he got to lose?

 

It's not like an 'own goal' would do them any harm. They've had plenty of those on their own.



#85 snaerk

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:15 AM

 

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine.

Not sure I saw that wrong much with LR's start. They started earlier and faster at the unfavoured end. Reaching performance, not so good. If you swapped the starting positions of the two boats, the outcome at mark 1 would have been no different.

Btw, what makes you think Draper is calling the start tactics anyway? He is "helm" not "skipper".

 I'm not convinced that he was at the unfavourable end, especially as LR was ahead by half a boat length.

I had them down as winning that start and being first at the mark.

 

The Kiwi boat just went faster!

 

Becos of the strong tide with the wind, LR had to close reech vs TNZ beem reeching to lay the mark.

 

TNZ wonted the right. Absent the tyd, thay woud have wonted the left



#86 yar

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:39 AM

Time to introduce a DRS zone, pit stops and tires that shred to make the racing aspect at least artificially interesting.

How about a pub race? Plenty of waterfront bars to run into and then back on board for the next leg.  :)

Aye to that ... indeed. the Kiwis may have had time to sail right up on the beach inside aquatic park ... grab an Irish coffee and still catch up to any other yacht racing on the bay!



#87 yar

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 08:04 AM

 

Really keen to watch the portion on VE when ETNZ hit damn near 30 foiling upwind to see how much they had to fall off to do that. By JN's video it sure didn't look like much - wow.

 

I don't know how to tease the angle and VMG data out of virtualeye, but I watched that section.  The second period of foiling on port tack they were not doing as well on the advantage line as they were when they weren't foiling.  Their lead basically increased steadily but that time it hung really steady and didn't climb like it had been.

 

The first time they foiled upwind on starboard (I assume they were foiling doing 25 knots) they were growing their lead much more quickly than they had been. 

 

So it seems it was working one time and not another.  The question is which is the better representation, as the slower of the two had the better relative VMG to LR.

Hi. Yes have noticed this before, and was wondering if a dagger is is allowed to be slightly offset by a few degrees. Bruce Farr tried self gybing dagger boards years ago. Other reason might be tide influence.Or maybe some more sandbagging.?

Cheers

K

I have an inkling that maybe foiling upwind works a bit better against a little tide (especially if those auto-gybing concept daggerboards could be used?). Who wouldn't like pulling themselves up by the bootstraps? Just how much tide is needed may be what Deano is "mucking about with". Not sure how similar this whole concept is to their better downwind foiling angles ... so net VMG  (and continuously better gybes and lower angles shown on VE) actually seems to be increasing as their apparent wind increases downwind, aero and hydro efficiencies aside. Is the endplate effect they are needing upwind (between the bottom of the hull and the root of the dagger) more efficient the further upwind they are able to sail? (less drag as leeway decreases?) Quite an astonishing reality we are all witnessing. Seems like Bucky Fullers dream come true ... ephemeralization - "ever doing more with less". Extraordinary stuff!

 

Anyone sail an older MacGregor 36 foot catamaran with auto gybing daggerboard?



#88 Barnyb

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 08:19 AM

 

Time to introduce a DRS zone, pit stops and tires that shred to make the racing aspect at least artificially interesting.

How about a pub race? Plenty of waterfront bars to run into and then back on board for the next leg.  :)

Aye to that ... indeed. the Kiwis may have had time to sail right up on the beach inside aquatic park ... grab an Irish coffee and still catch up to any other yacht racing on the bay!

 

 

Does Nespresso do an Irish coffee?



#89 jaysper

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 08:32 AM

 

 

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine.

Not sure I saw that wrong much with LR's start. They started earlier and faster at the unfavoured end. Reaching performance, not so good. If you swapped the starting positions of the two boats, the outcome at mark 1 would have been no different.

Btw, what makes you think Draper is calling the start tactics anyway? He is "helm" not "skipper".

 

Thats how I saw it, I was initially shocked at Deano not pulling the trigger earlier and then doubly shocked when he was still going just as fast at the start line as Draper.

Finally was triply shocked when he just rolled straight over the top of them..

 

The acceleration and top speed on the reach is incredible c.f. LR. Pulled the trigger a second or two after LR and 500m later are 10 seconds ahead. Huh???  :huh:

 

I don't see what the hell Draper could possibly do. He's tried windward, leeward and it makes no difference. Short of firing a couple of torpedoes at ETNZ, he is pushing shit up hill.

He could try mixing it up pre-start, looking to force a penalty on ETNZ.

 

What has he got to lose?

 

It's not like an 'own goal' would do them any harm. They've had plenty of those on their own.

 

Indeed he could and probably should, although I don't necessarily fancy his chances.

But my point was really that he didn't get a bad start, just that ETNZ are so much faster that it LOOKED like a bad start.

 

Even if ETNZ copped a penalty, it would just mean they need to pull the anchor out of the water for an extra minute or so.



#90 Foyle

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:12 AM

Will ETNZ throw race 8-10 or slow up and let LR pass after each mark rounding so that they can get better race practice?



#91 jaysper

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:21 AM

Will ETNZ throw race 8-10 or slow up and let LR pass after each mark rounding so that they can get better race practice?

 

Unlikely as they are probably itching to get the boat back to the shed for mods



#92 BronzeWing

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:39 AM

Will ETNZ throw race 8-10 or slow up and let LR pass after each mark rounding so that they can get better race practice?

No



#93 RGH

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:45 AM

:ph34r:  can anyone tell me what the wind speed limits will be in AC ??



and yes go the mighty AB's

21.1. Unless the Race Officer considers conditions too rough, the race committee intends to start 
races when the approximate average true wind speed is between:
a: 5 and 20 knots during July 2013;
b: 5 and 21 knots during August 2013; and
c: 5 to 23 knots during September 2013;

CHEERS



NO

 

Will ETNZ throw race 8-10 or slow up and let LR pass after each mark rounding so that they can get better race practice?



excuse caps



#94 eric e

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:17 AM

Does Nespresso do an Irish coffee?

maybe they'll do an "etnz blast"

 

looks just like the other coffees

 

but seems to pack a little more punch



#95 hoom

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:19 AM

c: 5 to 23 knots during September 2013;

Wait, I thought it was going to be 25kt limit for the AC match?



#96 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:33 AM

Only Dougy knows, but why isnt he telling?????



#97 insider

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:52 AM

Our video interviews with skippers Max Sirena and Dean Barker post race today: http://goo.gl/bsUSZ0

A good interview with Sirena, well worth listening. Barker says nothing & looks like he needs a holiday (or at least a good sleep).

Whatever his skills as a sailor, he has never been the most outgoing or socially comfortable human being around, which I would say shows in this video. Anyone who has ever met him on a social level would agree I'm sure.



#98 ita289

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:30 PM

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine. He couldn't even beat Artemis with 9 days of practice ffs. The only remote chance they have at beating TNZ is to ace the start. Lose lose lose lose the start. Uh OK.

Not that it would make any difference but... having nothing to lose now maybe they should give Bruni a chance to steer at the start and then hand over to CD.



#99 Poida

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:55 PM

Draper's a pussy.......pathetic.

#100 polarbear

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:10 PM

 

 

Can Draper suck any worse at the start? Hard to imagine.

Not sure I saw that wrong much with LR's start. They started earlier and faster at the unfavoured end. Reaching performance, not so good. If you swapped the starting positions of the two boats, the outcome at mark 1 would have been no different.

Btw, what makes you think Draper is calling the start tactics anyway? He is "helm" not "skipper".

 

Thats how I saw it, I was initially shocked at Deano not pulling the trigger earlier and then doubly shocked when he was still going just as fast at the start line as Draper.

Finally was triply shocked when he just rolled straight over the top of them..

 

The acceleration and top speed on the reach is incredible c.f. LR. Pulled the trigger a second or two after LR and 500m later are 10 seconds ahead. Huh???  :huh:

 

I don't see what the hell Draper could possibly do. He's tried windward, leeward and it makes no difference. Short of firing a couple of torpedoes at ETNZ, he is pushing shit up hill.

He could try mixing it up pre-start, looking to force a penalty on ETNZ.

 

What has he got to lose?

 

It's not like an 'own goal' would do them any harm. They've had plenty of those on their own.

 

 Exactly...  If he sets up for what could be end up as an even start, he loses.  So he has to mix it up before the start so that he puts himself in a position where he can get to the mark first.  Then try to keep the other boat behind them...  When LR gybed in the prestart, the NZ guys were happy for that reason: they knew it would be a drag race to the mark.






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