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#1 Sarc

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 02:50 AM

If one were to build a Did Mini mk3 650 homebuilt project what would be the cheapest outfit possible? I mean everything. Sails, Electronics, Mast, etc... Also how many hours would I be looking at building this thing. I would be sailing in Puget Sound with occasional jaunts to SF and Up to BC. Later on I would consider taking a longer trip to Hawaii/New Zealand. Oh and I'm 14 but I have support of my dad with this and I'm an experienced sailor so the technical aspect of sailing her doesn't particulary bother me. 



#2 BalticBandit

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:47 AM

Well you have a couple of things to consider

  1. if you homebuild, is your goal to keep costs down or be competitive.
    1. Because a Homebuild by definition is going to be a Proto.  and the competitive Protos these days are all carbon, swing keel Carbon Mast type affairs (ok the DSS one has a keel tab and DSS - same diff in mechanical costs).   So to be competitive as a Proto, you are looking at a fairly high added cost in things like rigging and the cost of a marine architect to design the more complicated bits to be safe. 

      I don't know the exact costs but I suspect the Carbon mast alone will make up the price diff between a used Class mini and competitive Proto.
       
    2. if the goal is to keep costs down, then a homebuilt proto is going to end up being not competitive in which case you really will only have PHRF as a fleet to race in.   I recommend you talk to Chris Tutmark and Craig Horsfield http://www.craighorsfieldracing.com/ who are both mini sailors (Chris is one of the best riggers on the west coast, has done one Mini transat and is a rep for one of the Mini Series boats, Craig is on his second Series Mini and doing his second Transat coming up here in October) with a wealth of experience.

      Craig in particular can tell you about the viability of racing a Mini in PHRF in Puget Sound (in certain circumstances he did well, but say on the Blakely Rock race, I passed him upwind on my 49er like he was standing still).
  2. If your goal is primarily shorthanded racing in Puget Sound, why not start with something like a Santana 21 http://for-sale.yakaz.com/santana-21-sailboat-for-sale#lo=4&docid=0007d3n3g9eoss6o  which you can buy used for much much less than a Mini,  re-rig for singlehanded saiiling,  The cost of making modifications to such a boat is going to be a lot cheaper than building a proto mini from scratch..   Now its true that the Santana won't necessarily be good for going offshore to SFO,  but it will teach you a huge amount about what you do and do not want in "your real boat"

    This last part is really important.  experience is one of the best teachers.  And buying a good (and a Santana 21 is a very good boat that does very well in racing in Puget Sound) starter boat that is very affordable, learnng what you do and do not like, will save you lots and lots and lots of headaches and $$ and tears when you upgrade to your "real" boat.  I've met (and raced with) so many owners who's first boat was something they really did not understand that I can tell you this is not the best route.

    BTW, there used to be an Olson 30 named Aliens Ate My Buick.  His son and two friends (all about your age) pooled their money and bought a Santana 21 and called it "Aliens Ate My Laser".  They learned a huge amount about how to sail a keelboat from that boat (I remember rescuing them once when they had lost both spinnaker sheets and it was blowing hard enough that the spinnaker was just flagged out from the top of the mast.... I was delivering my J-24 and used my mast to catch one of the spin sheets for them )

 

So I recommend that

 

a) you get a hold of Chris Tutmark (his phone number is on his FB page https://www.facebook...101311063263849 ) and invest in buying him a lunch

b  ) you get a hold of Craig Horsfield and do the same (though he might be a touch busy until after he gets back from the Mini Transat 2013)

 

And then decide how to best move forwards



#3 Steam Flyer

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:48 AM

If one were to build a Did Mini mk3 650 homebuilt project what would be the cheapest outfit possible? I mean everything. Sails, Electronics, Mast, etc... Also how many hours would I be looking at building this thing. I would be sailing in Puget Sound with occasional jaunts to SF and Up to BC. Later on I would consider taking a longer trip to Hawaii/New Zealand. Oh and I'm 14 but I have support of my dad with this and I'm an experienced sailor so the technical aspect of sailing her doesn't particulary bother me. 

 

"Cheapest possible" is an extremely bad priority... build it out of chipboard & duct tape,  blue tarp sails. etc etc? Or a slightly higher level of "cheapest possible"?

 

Put this in context... what is the cheapest possible car you could drive from Seattle to Boston? You can get a car pretty cheap but it will not be reliable, safe, comfortable... if you're an expert mechanic with an awesome tool set (which is already a big investment in time & money) then you don't have to prioritize "reliable" because you can achieve that through other means than spending money on it, thus allowing you to choose more safety and/or comfort.

 

The least expensive way to get a functioning Mini is going to be to buy a good used one. Yes it's a big chunk o'ching, but by the time you've built even a plywood one -and- finished it -and- bought the spars -and- the rigging -and- the sails, you will have spent considerably more time & money both.

 

The only time it makes sense to build a boat is when you are in love with the process of building a boat.

 

FB- Doug



#4 BalticBandit

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 11:29 AM

Doug  - the latter might be what Sarcoma's dad is hoping to inspire in the 14yo.  But as you point out, the reasons for building your own boat are that

a) you have an idea and you don't have the cash to get someone else to design and build it for you (some of the mini protos have been built this way)

 

B) you love building boats.

 

 

But trying to save money is not a viable option unless you have a lot of spare time.



#5 Sarc

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 04:38 PM

Thanks so much for the help and yes building a boat is primarily my dad's idea. The Santana 21 looks like a viable option but it still won't stop me looking for used minis in this part of the world. They have a certain attraction that other boats don't quite instill in me yet( excluding a 49er on a planning reech). I guess I'm looking at boats that I could use when after high school to travel to quite far places and the mini gives me the ability to do that and also just sail phrf or just cruising around Puget Sound. Are there any other ocean going fairly high performance single handers that are slightly cheaper than a used mini(10-20k)?

#6 Sarc

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:58 PM

Is it possible to put a j80 spars on a mini? http://www.minitrans...ordpress/?p=347



#7 BalticBandit

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 11:42 PM

Well you can rig Moore 24s to single and double hand.  But again I would urge you to go with a cheap initial boat like a Santana so that you can experiment with ideas and boat handling in all sorts of conditions.  By the time you are ready for real "Blue Water" you will likely want a boat different from the one you have now.    Win some races with your Santana and you might get asked to be a double-handed crew on a Mini - and that can ladderstep you to sponsorship etc.



#8 Sarc

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:49 AM

I think i'll go that route then. Do you mean Santana 20 by any chance? Just because I can't find much info on the 21's. Also how would you go about re rigging a Santana for single-handing? Thanks for your help.



#9 fng

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:05 AM

selden do a very good package price for a series set up



#10 BalticBandit

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:04 AM

Sorry yes I meant a Santana 20... http://www.s20.org/C...Classifieds.htm  There is a Santan 21 as well, but its a swing CB boat and not the one I was thinking of.

 

Now how to go about re-rigging for single handing.  See THAT's the kind of thing to think about.

 

I have my ideas on how I would do it, but I would first get one,  and learn to race it with 2-3 friends (CYC wed night on Puget Sound or Anthony's Friday Night on LakeW or Shishole Bay YC beer can series on Monday nights http://www.shilshole...__Jan-2010_.pdf

 

Then enter a Jack and Jill race out of the SBYC (great reason to ask one of the girls who is sailing at Sail Sand Point or Seattle Yacht club to go out with you :-)  - just post on the notice board that you are a youth skipper looking for a female youth crew for the SBYC Jack and Jill series.    That will give you a feel for what things need to change for "short handed sailing"..

 

 

Because single handed sailing is basically YOU doing the jobs you have your crew do in a double-handed race.  For the Santana 20 you would need to invest in an Autohelm that has a "tack" function.  So singlehanded to tack you

  • set up the Autohelm on your tiller on your current track

  • let go the tiller and move to trimming the jib

  • reach back and push the TACK button

  • tack the jib and trim it in

  • climb back to the helm and put the Autohelm in "standby" and disconnect it

 

If you want to practice for it being a mini, after resetting the main trim and the new upwind course, you can put the Autohelm back on and clamber down below and stack all the sails on the new windward side :-)

 

 

For setting the kite, again, bear off, engage autohelm and do the crew work (up toppy, prefeed kite to pole, up kite, down jib, trim in kite, move back to cockpit, pole back,  cleat kite for moment, Autohelm off,  Trim kite and steer.

 

Now it is possible to set up mechanical "autohelms" as well.

 

And if you want, you can add a deck mounted bow sprit (that will teach you boat building) and an assymettrical.

 

 

 

 

But start simple.  Start with a boat and sail it. Figure out what you think should change, try it.  And change it again if you learned that your first go wasn't quite it.  (and keep doing the Jack and  Jills as an excuse for asking girls out).



#11 BalticBandit

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:38 AM

Is it possible to put a j80 spars on a mini? http://www.minitrans...ordpress/?p=347

Why would you do that?  It has a rig.  Its a Proto Mini that is not going to be competitive i the Mini class at all.   This demonstrates the high cost of a "build your own" mini.  By the time you have it built and sorted out, it is obsolete and has very little value in that it is not competitive in the Proto class and cannot be sailed in the Classe Mini class. 

 

On of the folks who is doing his second Mini-transat puts his Mini transat budget at $40,000    But that's

Already with a boat that has the gear to qualify for a Transat

already with a skipper that has qualified for the Transat

 

So hs $40k is just updating sails, equipment, provisions, and some mods and maintenance on his boat.

 

 

 

and that's a CLASSE Mini.  



#12 Sarc

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:51 PM

Thanks so much for the help. I shouda probably mentioned Im in Tacoma not Seattle though but the concepts pretty much the same. Start with 2 or 3 and work up to singlehanding on Wednesday night's.

#13 Sarc

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:55 PM

And down the road i might want to rig it for asymmetrical just because it's so much easier to set and douse. Are there any threads about building a bowsprit and rigging out for asso?

#14 BalticBandit

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:35 PM

well there are for dinghies.  There have been some discussions in FixIt Anarchy that i vaguely recollect and one or two here about how to fit a Pogo lke pivot for Minis iin this forum.  But its not that hard.  fundamentally you need a sprit that is strong enough for the worst case lateral and vertical shock loads.  And you mount it to the deck so you need to think about supporting the deck at the aft end of it when extended but otherwise its fairly simple deal of two hoops and a cascade of blocks



#15 Sarc

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:20 PM

Ok. What Autohelm would you reccomend for the Santana?



#16 BalticBandit

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:40 PM

OOh that's not one I can answer.  I've always "friction" autohelmed.  Which is fine for deliveries or singlehanding for fun, but not good enough for racing (essentially you take a line across the tilller from one stanchion to the next, and you loop it around the tiller twice with just a skosh of slack.  tiiller stays mostly in centerline but you can still steer the boat by body roll.    You can rig a kinda auto pilot by taking a bungee from the helm to the weather stanchion and running the mainsheet through a turning block on the leeward side to the tiller that way as the boat luffs, the bungee pulls the tiller up and the nose goes down, which loads up the main and pulls the helm alee....

 

But I'd recommend the autohelm.   Talk to Chris Tutmark



#17 ctutmark

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:50 PM

There is also the Santana 22 which is an older and tougher boat that has better manners esp. downwind



#18 BalticBandit

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:23 PM

Thats the one I was thinking of... Chris I knew you would know!!!



#19 Sarc

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

S Santana 20 vs 22. Is one better In Light wind/heavy wind is one easier to to singelehand is one cheaper? Does anyone know of a decent not to expensive autohelm?

#20 BalticBandit

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:09 AM

An autohelm new runs around $500.  Used you can probably find one for $300






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