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Ridiculous Mistake, Ridiculous Punishment

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#801 SimonN

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:02 AM

These recent comments made me look at some photos again and 2 things stand out. First, the weight would have been lower down than the designated place. Second, and maybe far more relevent, I had forgotten how far forward we are talking about. Nobody at the top level of the sport would place even 2kgs of weight that far forward unless they had a good reason or were forced to, even with a boat of that weight. It defies all common sense and experience. The only way anybody would place weight there is they believed it was a good idea, because at first glance, you would have thought it was a really bad place to add weight and somebody would have said so. The more I see of this the more I believe that it was a deliberate action to gain advantage.



#802 Finnfart

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:13 AM

 

A blind man can see the post is higher than the hull! .

Mea culpa . . . . I was wrong, You are right.

 

Then how can this statement be accurate if it is a quote from a jury notice ?

 

From JN117 - I believe the same place your above sketch comes from:
 
"The Jury believes that adding weight to the king posts is performance advancing albeit probably to a small degree. If a boat is required to carry corrector weights to make an AC45 Class Rule compliant, then it would be beneficial to take weight away from the corrector weight area and place weight as low as possible; both the king posts are lower than the corrector weight area so transferring weight to the king posts would achieve that aim."

So yes, for placing low, this was better.   But at the cost of righting moment, and greater rotational inertia.   As for any bow down attitude issues, move a crew member inches forward and achieve the same thing.  My point is that I can think of as many advantages as disadvantages, and for this amount of weight...  I'm certain it is minuscule in whatever direction it took them.  Minuscule enough that anybody cheating for speed would not have seen this as worth the trouble that Simon correctly points out... and even less worth the risk of penalization.

 

But hey, people can be stupid.. I mean people.  I just always expect them to be following a CLEAR self interest.

 

Someone else says that maintenance ease is no different than performance.  In the absolute sense, yes.. its cheating. But in the context of graduating punishments, I respectfully disagree.



#803 SimonN

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:03 AM

 

 

A blind man can see the post is higher than the hull! .

Mea culpa . . . . I was wrong, You are right.

 

Then how can this statement be accurate if it is a quote from a jury notice ?

 

From JN117 - I believe the same place your above sketch comes from:
 
"The Jury believes that adding weight to the king posts is performance advancing albeit probably to a small degree. If a boat is required to carry corrector weights to make an AC45 Class Rule compliant, then it would be beneficial to take weight away from the corrector weight area and place weight as low as possible; both the king posts are lower than the corrector weight area so transferring weight to the king posts would achieve that aim."

So yes, for placing low, this was better.   But at the cost of righting moment, and greater rotational inertia.   As for any bow down attitude issues, move a crew member inches forward and achieve the same thing.  My point is that I can think of as many advantages as disadvantages, and for this amount of weight...  I'm certain it is minuscule in whatever direction it took them.  Minuscule enough that anybody cheating for speed would not have seen this as worth the trouble that Simon correctly points out... and even less worth the risk of penalization.

I think you are totally misunderstanding what I said. 2kgs that far from the CoG of the boat is not minuscule. It's exactly the opposite. If I was a sailor in a pro race team I would be livid if I found somebody had placed weight that far from the CoG just for convenience or even by mistake. You simply don't do it. Star sailors used to obsess about a few grams at the top of the mast, which has far less effect that what we have here. 

 

These guys know what they are doing. The only way that amount of weight is placed that far from the CoG is if they think there is an advantage or they are made to do it by the rules. Be under no illusion - the weight was placed where it was because somebody thought it would give them an advantage. However, I still don't believe that it was an OR team decision involving senior management.



#804 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:45 AM

Finnfart, I agree with Simon, seriously, if you were racing on a Tornado, or any other cat, would you just think of hiding lead bags under your bowsprit ? It was done with an obvious will to cheat.

 

It is so obvious that I will go further, the one who did that probably did it before. Also, the rest of the boat was not checked, I wonder if the IJ could have found not find any more in the bowsprit..



#805 floater

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 03:25 AM

Don't forget - prosecutor - weight was added to the inner king post as well. Curiouser and curiouser.

#806 SW Sailor

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 03:52 AM

 

 

A blind man can see the post is higher than the hull! .

Mea culpa . . . . I was wrong, You are right.

 

Then how can this statement be accurate if it is a quote from a jury notice ?

 

From JN117 - I believe the same place your above sketch comes from:
 
"The Jury believes that adding weight to the king posts is performance advancing albeit probably to a small degree. If a boat is required to carry corrector weights to make an AC45 Class Rule compliant, then it would be beneficial to take weight away from the corrector weight area and place weight as low as possible; both the king posts are lower than the corrector weight area so transferring weight to the king posts would achieve that aim."

So yes, for placing low, this was better.   But at the cost of righting moment, and greater rotational inertia.   As for any bow down attitude issues, move a crew member inches forward and achieve the same thing.  My point is that I can think of as many advantages as disadvantages, and for this amount of weight...  I'm certain it is minuscule in whatever direction it took them.  Minuscule enough that anybody cheating for speed would not have seen this as worth the trouble that Simon correctly points out... and even less worth the risk of penalization.

 

But hey, people can be stupid.. I mean people.  I just always expect them to be following a CLEAR self interest.

 

Someone else says that maintenance ease is no different than performance.  In the absolute sense, yes.. its cheating. But in the context of graduating punishments, I respectfully disagree.

 

The point I was considering was assuming this is a statement from the jury notice, as it was quoted as such, it is factually incorrect if both the king post locations are NOT lower than the corrector weight location.

 

Am I missing something in the jury notice or the diagram ?



#807 Finnfart

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:01 AM

Finnfart, I agree with Simon, seriously, if you were racing on a Tornado, or any other cat, would you just think of hiding lead bags under your bowsprit ? It was done with an obvious will to cheat.

 

It is so obvious that I will go further, the one who did that probably did it before. Also, the rest of the boat was not checked, I wonder if the IJ could have found not find any more in the bowsprit..

 

As I say... Simon was persuasive.  It was hard to get the stuff there.  

 

But I'm still unconvinced however, because of the ridiculousness of the situation.. On your Tornado, would you even bother to put 200 GRAMS somewhere in the platform and expect it to make a difference?  Because that is what we are talking about here on a proportional basis.   Would you take these kinds of risks for 200grams?

 

Now if the rest of the boat was loaded with stuff, then all bets are off, but I would expect that when this was discovered, they took a pretty careful look and turned up nothing.  However, if there was lead spread all around, I'd be firmly in your camp.  

 

If we were talking about 200 grams on a Tornado I think people's reaction would tend toward the 'ridiculous'.  But somehow we multiply boat weight and added weight by 10 and it is a legitimate 'advantage'.



#808 maxmini

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:39 AM

Finnfart, I agree with Simon, seriously, if you were racing on a Tornado, or any other cat, would you just think of hiding lead bags under your bowsprit ? It was done with an obvious will to cheat.

 

It is so obvious that I will go further, the one who did that probably did it before. Also, the rest of the boat was not checked, I wonder if the IJ could have found not find any more in the bowsprit..

 

As I say... Simon was persuasive.  It was hard to get the stuff there.  

 

But I'm still unconvinced however, because of the ridiculousness of the situation.. On your Tornado, would you even bother to put 200 GRAMS somewhere in the platform and expect it to make a difference?  Because that is what we are talking about here on a proportional basis.   Would you take these kinds of risks for 200grams?

 

Now if the rest of the boat was loaded with stuff, then all bets are off, but I would expect that when this was discovered, they took a pretty careful look and turned up nothing.  However, if there was lead spread all around, I'd be firmly in your camp.  

 

If we were talking about 200 grams on a Tornado I think people's reaction would tend toward the 'ridiculous'.  But somehow we multiply boat weight and added weight by 10 and it is a legitimate 'advantage'.

 

 

With the exception of this thread, on this forum , the vast majority have had this issue filed under RIDICULOUS for over half a year now .



#809 SimonN

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:03 AM

If we were talking about 200 grams on a Tornado I think people's reaction would tend toward the 'ridiculous'.  But somehow we multiply boat weight and added weight by 10 and it is a legitimate 'advantage'.

I've been involved with Tornados at Olympic level and trust me, nobody at that level would consider 200 grams ridiculous. In fact, if somebody i was involved with took the attitude you are suggesting, I would have serious words with them about whether they were serious about olympic sailing.

 

I remember as a kid reading about Star sailors getting worked up about a few grams at the top pf their masts and thought that was ridiculous. Having been fortunate enough to be around some of the very best sailors of their generation, I now understand that obsessiveness. Maybe some of the reason why that sort of guy is at the top of the sport and many on here aren't is the difference between what some consider ridiculous and what others consider meaningful and important.

 

I stick by my comments that you do not stick 2.5kgs that far from the CoG in a boat like the AC45's without a performance reason. 



#810 Presuming Ed

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:32 AM

You have to think that there must be benefits to getting that bow in. 

 

Alt_DSC03394_edited1.jpg



#811 SW Sailor

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:02 AM

 

Finnfart, I agree with Simon, seriously, if you were racing on a Tornado, or any other cat, would you just think of hiding lead bags under your bowsprit ? It was done with an obvious will to cheat.

 

It is so obvious that I will go further, the one who did that probably did it before. Also, the rest of the boat was not checked, I wonder if the IJ could have found not find any more in the bowsprit..

 

As I say... Simon was persuasive.  It was hard to get the stuff there.  

 

But I'm still unconvinced however, because of the ridiculousness of the situation.. On your Tornado, would you even bother to put 200 GRAMS somewhere in the platform and expect it to make a difference?  Because that is what we are talking about here on a proportional basis.   Would you take these kinds of risks for 200grams?

 

Now if the rest of the boat was loaded with stuff, then all bets are off, but I would expect that when this was discovered, they took a pretty careful look and turned up nothing.  However, if there was lead spread all around, I'd be firmly in your camp.  

 

If we were talking about 200 grams on a Tornado I think people's reaction would tend toward the 'ridiculous'.  But somehow we multiply boat weight and added weight by 10 and it is a legitimate 'advantage'.

 

 

With the exception of this thread, on this forum , the vast majority have had this issue filed under RIDICULOUS for over half a year now .

 

Not to worry, it has a good life ahead of it here even if nothing comes about because of it, which may disappoint a few here. So be it.



#812 Groucho Marx

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:12 AM

Look at some of the videos, in some condtions there are/is crew well forward when beating. Those bows look to me, actually a little too buoyant; they ride high, okay fine when wind is up but not in lesser conditions - get weight forward (plus the sneaky epoxied lead and bags) in light and moderate conditions and the bows touch water, boat goes faster, you know, waterline length, very old school stuff. Of course the fucking cheats put lead there for a purpose, started to clean up (along with the stiffened platforms from altered length dolphin strikers) after they did so. This was all covered long time ago, remember? Would really like to know what else was done because you can be fucking sure, there would have been more sneaky Dick thinking too.
Hey, thread title is 180 degrees swerve off course, should be re-worded: cheating but stupid bastards, inadequate penalty.

#813 randomlurker

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:01 AM

 

Finnfart, I agree with Simon, seriously, if you were racing on a Tornado, or any other cat, would you just think of hiding lead bags under your bowsprit ? It was done with an obvious will to cheat.

 

It is so obvious that I will go further, the one who did that probably did it before. Also, the rest of the boat was not checked, I wonder if the IJ could have found not find any more in the bowsprit..

 

As I say... Simon was persuasive.  It was hard to get the stuff there.  

 

But I'm still unconvinced however, because of the ridiculousness of the situation.. On your Tornado, would you even bother to put 200 GRAMS somewhere in the platform and expect it to make a difference?  Because that is what we are talking about here on a proportional basis.   Would you take these kinds of risks for 200grams?

 

Now if the rest of the boat was loaded with stuff, then all bets are off, but I would expect that when this was discovered, they took a pretty careful look and turned up nothing.  However, if there was lead spread all around, I'd be firmly in your camp.  

 

If we were talking about 200 grams on a Tornado I think people's reaction would tend toward the 'ridiculous'.  But somehow we multiply boat weight and added weight by 10 and it is a legitimate 'advantage'.

 

 

With the exception of this thread, on this forum , the vast majority have had this issue filed under RIDICULOUS for over half a year now .

As PH, Stingray their man friend TE well know, this forum is something of a litmust test for what the majority believe. That is why there is such vigorous defense of the Jury and a lack of acceptance that Oracel were some innocent party involved in a silly mistake.



#814 Estar

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:16 AM

I think you are totally misunderstanding what I said. 2kgs that far from the CoG of the boat is not minuscule. It's exactly the opposite. If I was a sailor in a pro race team I would be livid if I found somebody had placed weight that far from the CoG just for convenience or even by mistake. You simply don't do it. Star sailors used to obsess about a few grams at the top of the mast, which has far less effect that what we have here. 
 
These guys know what they are doing. The only way that amount of weight is placed that far from the CoG is if they think there is an advantage or they are made to do it by the rules. Be under no illusion - the weight was placed where it was because somebody thought it would give them an advantage. However, I still don't believe that it was an OR team decision involving senior management.

One (of the very few) things that was relatively uncontrolled on these boats was the placement and weight of sponsor stickers. On some boats those sponsor stickers ended up weighing more than you would expect (similar to the weight that OR added in the bags), and were a  reason (in addition to repairs) that the corrector weights went up over time.
 
There was a comment from RC to the effect that those sponsor stickers allowed some teams to add weight forward of the corrector weight location. Team members all the way up to RC were aware of this, it was discussed inside the team, and with the measurement committee.  I could imagine 'someone' deciding they would 'equalize'/'compensate' for this on the OR boats by adding these weight bags in the king post, and justifying it as 'not cheating' because they were just equalizing for what other teams were doing legally with their stickers. For me that is the most likely reason/intent for the weight bags - it provides an actual context and rationale for the action happening.  note: That is very similar thinking to that which Lance Armstrong used to convince himself that using performance enhancing drugs was not 'cheating', because he was only equalizing with his competitors.
 
However, I cannot imagine a boat rigger making that decision on his own, without at least some 'encouragement' from a more senior member of the team. And then this job was put on to-do lists published by the boat captains, so it definitely was at least 'endorsed' by that level.

#815 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:45 PM

That's interesting Evans.  I know at some point they started weighing vinyl before they put a new sticker on, I remember getting a call about it.



#816 SimonN

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:51 PM

Estar

 

That certainly fits with a few things i had heard. I am pretty sure that the sticker weight issue was mentioned by the measurement team at one point and it certainly doesn't surprise me having had fully vinyled up sails and felt the huge weight difference from that. And I can imagine this being well known within the team. And I have always believed that the problem was a small group taking matters into their own hands. To me, while the reason you state supports that, it certainly doesn't excuse it. Whether they felt they were only equalising things or whether they were trying to make their boat faster than the rest, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they added weight to the boat in a place that was illegal and that they did it knowing that it was illegal.



#817 Finnfart

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 04:58 PM

Estar

 

That certainly fits with a few things i had heard. I am pretty sure that the sticker weight issue was mentioned by the measurement team at one point and it certainly doesn't surprise me having had fully vinyled up sails and felt the huge weight difference from that. And I can imagine this being well known within the team. And I have always believed that the problem was a small group taking matters into their own hands. To me, while the reason you state supports that, it certainly doesn't excuse it. Whether they felt they were only equalising things or whether they were trying to make their boat faster than the rest, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they added weight to the boat in a place that was illegal and that they did it knowing that it was illegal.

Finally...  an explanation that makes sense!   And I agree that it doesn't excuse it.   Now I'm pondering whether this justifies 5 years... and my first reaction is that it doesn't.  If true, this explanation is an attempt to mitigate disadvantage rather than create advantage.  Somehow, that changes it for me... but I'm not sure.

 

But I'm still thinking.



#818 Estar

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:31 PM

^^ I don't have the knowledge to know if 5 years is "right"

But do remember that the one guy given 5 years was (probably) given that severity mostly because he was found to be less than honest and because he led other team members astray. The jr Indians who did the actual work, who were fully honest, admitting they knew it was against the rules, were given much much less severe penalties.

I believe if OR had said to the jury "we did this to equalize the boats with the competition. We knew it was wrong and it showed terrible judgement. Here is exactly who/when/where it happened" and then the named OR team members involved all agreed, that the individual penalties would all have been much less severe.

That still leaves the spigots/spacers/ and intentionally violating the simple measurement committee procedures as protocol 60 problems, but the 69s would probably have been treated much differently.

#819 rule69

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:52 PM

There was a comment from RC to the effect that those sponsor stickers allowed some teams to add weight forward of the corrector weight location. Team members all the way up to RC were aware of this, it was discussed inside the team, and with the measurement committee.  I could imagine 'someone' deciding they would 'equalize'/'compensate' for this on the OR boats by adding these weight bags in the king post, and justifying it as 'not cheating' because they were just equalizing for what other teams were doing legally with their stickers. For me that is the most likely reason/intent for the weight bags - it provides an actual context and rationale for the action happening.  note: That is very similar thinking to that which Lance Armstrong used to convince himself that using performance enhancing drugs was not 'cheating', because he was only equalizing with his competitors.

Interesting.

 

Groups can lose perspective like that.  Sometimes there is a positive reinforcement loop that gets out of hand. I think in some places the understanding of RRS 42 has developed like that. Paranoia can run high in OD racing. "The other guys must be doing something sneaky" can feel like a justification for doing something marginal.



#820 SimonN

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:15 PM

Estar

 

That certainly fits with a few things i had heard. I am pretty sure that the sticker weight issue was mentioned by the measurement team at one point and it certainly doesn't surprise me having had fully vinyled up sails and felt the huge weight difference from that. And I can imagine this being well known within the team. And I have always believed that the problem was a small group taking matters into their own hands. To me, while the reason you state supports that, it certainly doesn't excuse it. Whether they felt they were only equalising things or whether they were trying to make their boat faster than the rest, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they added weight to the boat in a place that was illegal and that they did it knowing that it was illegal.

Finally...  an explanation that makes sense!   And I agree that it doesn't excuse it.   Now I'm pondering whether this justifies 5 years... and my first reaction is that it doesn't.  If true, this explanation is an attempt to mitigate disadvantage rather than create advantage.  Somehow, that changes it for me... but I'm not sure.

 

But I'm still thinking.

I agree with Estar about the real reasons for the 5 year ban. The suggestion put forward is speculation and it doesn't really matter whether they were doing it because they felt it equalised the speed of the boats or for any other reason. The bottom line is simple. They chose where they wanted to put the weight knowing that it was in the wrong place and in order to get a performance gain. If the vinyl issue really was, the had a perfectly legal way of dealing with it, by applying more vinyl themselves. In addition, how did they know that placing the weight where they did was a fair way of equalising the boats? Maybe it would have done, or maybe it would have given the OR boats an advantage. But again, that doesn't really matter. YOu cannot choose which rules to comply with and which not to, even if you base that decision on what is fair, because that undermines the whole trust thing that has to be there even in a class that is as closely scrutinised as the AC72's.



#821 floater

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:21 AM


Estar
 
That certainly fits with a few things i had heard. I am pretty sure that the sticker weight issue was mentioned by the measurement team at one point and it certainly doesn't surprise me having had fully vinyled up sails and felt the huge weight difference from that. And I can imagine this being well known within the team. And I have always believed that the problem was a small group taking matters into their own hands. To me, while the reason you state supports that, it certainly doesn't excuse it. Whether they felt they were only equalising things or whether they were trying to make their boat faster than the rest, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that they added weight to the boat in a place that was illegal and that they did it knowing that it was illegal.

Finally...  an explanation that makes sense!   And I agree that it doesn't excuse it.   Now I'm pondering whether this justifies 5 years... and my first reaction is that it doesn't.  If true, this explanation is an attempt to mitigate disadvantage rather than create advantage.  Somehow, that changes it for me... but I'm not sure.
 
But I'm still thinking.
I will jump on this bandwagon - given the posts are essentially sealed containers makes the presence of lead a bit more nefarious than I had imagined.

It is arguable whether it is beneficial - but it's presence no longer seems innocent.

#822 maxmini

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 05:00 PM

I think they should make OR void the results of the ACWS and give back their tropheys !

That will show them !!

Oh wait a min.

#823 aldo

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 05:24 PM

While we are on the "way back machine" lets remember how all the sheep herding kiwi fanboys cried about the meaningless ACWS and how it was a useless waste of resources and the only reason OR was forcing the challengers to participate was so they could not concentrate their money and time on the real prize.

They thought so little of the whole charade that they had their junior sheep fuckers steering the boats.

 

Of course now they are saying, if not for the dastardly cheating, the AC cup would have been their's.



#824 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 05:53 PM

While we are on the "way back machine" lets remember how all the sheep herding kiwi fanboys cried about the meaningless ACWS and how it was a useless waste of resources and the only reason OR was forcing the challengers to participate was so they could not concentrate their money and time on the real prize.

They thought so little of the whole charade that they had their junior sheep fuckers steering the boats.

^^

Wasn't OR the team willing to attach the ACWS to the AC ? and now you are whining.



#825 randomlurker

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 07:53 PM

After being the all knowing opinon on all this unjust for OTUSA, Stringray seems to have deserted this thread. Is it the logical argument or have you been told to leave it alone for a while and sneak the argument in other threads. PH, PH, your silence is deafening.



#826 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 07:57 PM

Well, with all the number of PH posts we learnt a lot: that he has secret info he doesn't want to share. :)

 

Good that we had Estar to propose intelligent, structured and documented answers.



#827 SW Sailor

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 07:58 PM

It certainly can't be because the issue has been argued from every perspective over the last 424 posts could it ?



#828 nav

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:28 PM

^ That never stopped the spin before...

#829 PeterHuston

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:36 PM

After being the all knowing opinon on all this unjust for OTUSA, Stringray seems to have deserted this thread. Is it the logical argument or have you been told to leave it alone for a while and sneak the argument in other threads. PH, PH, your silence is deafening.

 

I'm not going to keep rearguing the simple point about Dirk: that it is entirely possible he may not have done that of what he was accused.

 

This whole thread doesn't even come close to touching on why the process gave the result it did.   Not saying Oracle didn't screw up, they admitted they did.  I'm only talking about Dirk.

 

As much as I'd like to, If I started to even hint at what I know, then I'd be accused of trying to taint the result by the Review Board.

 

That said, it is basically all in the public record.  You just have to know where to look.



#830 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:49 PM

 If I started to even hint at what I know, then I'd be accused of trying to taint the result by the Review Board.

 

Yeah, that's logical.  Your pointing out what you say is entirely in the public domain would be 'tainting the result' of an ISAF review board.  Sure, that makes sense.



#831 PeterHuston

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:28 PM

 If I started to even hint at what I know, then I'd be accused of trying to taint the result by the Review Board.

 

Yeah, that's logical.  Your pointing out what you say is entirely in the public domain would be 'tainting the result' of an ISAF review board.  Sure, that makes sense.

 

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand.  Nor do I care.  What will be funny is when you try to defend ISAF because you have a hard on for Oracle, and me.  Whatever.



#832 aldo

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:12 PM

While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.

I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.

 

It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.



#833 ~Stingray~

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:19 PM

:D Might have been the what-the-hell-color shirts?

TGIF

#834 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:44 PM

The "evidence" that PH claims is public should be in one of those docs. What would make ISAF so guilty ? I guess OR showed that to their lawyers who may have found something ?

 

 

http://noticeboard.a...eport240813.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN112.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN113.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN114.pdf

ttp://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN115R.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN116.pdf



#835 aldo

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:22 PM

:D Might have been the what-the-hell-color shirts?
TGIF


it was a lovely shade of purple and I must admit that I am partial to purple camisoles. Less the Adam's apple of course.

#836 davidprobable

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:44 PM

 

 If I started to even hint at what I know, then I'd be accused of trying to taint the result by the Review Board.

 

Yeah, that's logical.  Your pointing out what you say is entirely in the public domain would be 'tainting the result' of an ISAF review board.  Sure, that makes sense.

 

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand.  Nor do I care.  What will be funny is when you try to defend ISAF because you have a hard on for Oracle, and me.  Whatever.

why are you guys both playing so hard to get?   There are lots of guys on this thread that would broker a Brokeback  hug btw the two of you.   Just think of the joy you would experience.    PH you know you want to.    Clean would bend to your wishes.    Stop bitch slapping each other and start spooning.



#837 PeterHuston

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 12:55 AM

The "evidence" that PH claims is public should be in one of those docs. What would make ISAF so guilty ? I guess OR showed that to their lawyers who may have found something ?

 

 

http://noticeboard.a...eport240813.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN112.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN113.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN114.pdf

ttp://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN115R.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN116.pdf

 

 

Like I said, you'd have to know where to look.  Obviously, you don't have a clue.  



#838 SimonN

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 06:38 AM

I'm not going to keep rearguing the simple point about Dirk: that it is entirely possible he may not have done that of what he was accused.

 

This whole thread doesn't even come close to touching on why the process gave the result it did.   Not saying Oracle didn't screw up, they admitted they did.  I'm only talking about Dirk.

I think this is the key difference between us. I agree that it is possible that DdR may not have done what he is accused of because the burden of proof for something like this has to be less than a criminal case where it is 'beyond all reasonable doubt". If you try to apply that to sport, you would screw all sports. However, from everything i have read and been told, I think it is probable that DdR did do what everybody accused him of. Moreover, you seem to be more interested in the whole "process' thing than you are on who did what, which regrettably, is the American way. Very few if any other jurisdictions are so obsessed with process to the point that people who are clearly guilty of major crimes get off on a regular basis. What is even more interesting is that I do not see any reduction in the number of miscarriages of justice in the USA than in other jurisdictions, such as, for instance, the UK which isn't anywhere near to be as obsessed with process and "constitutional rights".

 

And now for my final word on the rights and wrongs of the IJ's ruling on DdR. I know some of the IJ and have met all but one member. On that jury, there are a few people I do not rate at all and if those people were found to have acted improperly, I wouldn't be shocked. However, there were a few on that jury who I would bet everything i have on their integrity. I know those individuals would speak out if things were not done right. I know they couldn't be bought off as some might suggest. They would not keep quiet if they were anything but convinced by the verdict they were adding their names to. I Peter says that under his view of the law there were procedural cock ups, fine, but for the few I would totally rely on, if they did not have an overwhelming belief that DdR was guilt as charged, they would not have added their name to the verdict.



#839 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 02:05 PM

While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.

I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.

 

It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.

When Larry was doing the right thing for the sport, we were fans.

 

After he got 'the precious' and went off the rails, we were no longer fans.

 

Pretty simple.



#840 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 02:07 PM

 

 If I started to even hint at what I know, then I'd be accused of trying to taint the result by the Review Board.

 

Yeah, that's logical.  Your pointing out what you say is entirely in the public domain would be 'tainting the result' of an ISAF review board.  Sure, that makes sense.

 

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand.  Nor do I care.  What will be funny is when you try to defend ISAF because you have a hard on for Oracle, and me.  Whatever.

 

You wouldn't expect me to understand because I am a lawyer and you are not?  Do you think you have a special language I don't know?

 

It makes me laugh that you accuse me, the leading critic of ISAF of any writer in the sport, in advance, of defending ISAF, 'because I have a hard on for Oracle, and you."

 

No one has a hard on for you, Peter.  That's why you are such a miserable little bitch.



#841 PeterHuston

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:23 PM

 

 

 If I started to even hint at what I know, then I'd be accused of trying to taint the result by the Review Board.

 

Yeah, that's logical.  Your pointing out what you say is entirely in the public domain would be 'tainting the result' of an ISAF review board.  Sure, that makes sense.

 

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand.  Nor do I care.  What will be funny is when you try to defend ISAF because you have a hard on for Oracle, and me.  Whatever.

 

You wouldn't expect me to understand because I am a lawyer and you are not?  Do you think you have a special language I don't know?

 

It makes me laugh that you accuse me, the leading critic of ISAF of any writer in the sport, in advance, of defending ISAF, 'because I have a hard on for Oracle, and you."

 

No one has a hard on for you, Peter.  That's why you are such a miserable little bitch.

 

Funny thing, most lawyers I know are actually lawyers.  Seems to me you are a guy with a law degree that isn't working in the legal profession, except as a defendant.

 

I don't expect you to understand, because so far with all of your investigative powers you haven't been able to get anyone to leak any aspect of this matter to you.  Clearly, you don't even know where to look for the core issue(s).  It's not really about reading the law.



#842 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:35 PM

The "evidence" that PH claims is public should be in one of those docs. What would make ISAF so guilty ? I guess OR showed that to their lawyers who may have found something ?

 

 

http://noticeboard.a...eport240813.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN112.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN113.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN114.pdf

ttp://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN115R.pdf

http://noticeboard.a...11/08/JN116.pdf

 

 

Like I said, you'd have to know where to look.  Obviously, you don't have a clue.  

So, you pretend you have confidential info, then that it's public and you don't want to say where. What game are you playing ?



#843 davidprobable

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 05:29 PM

 

 

 If I started to even hint at what I know, then I'd be accused of trying to taint the result by the Review Board.

 

Yeah, that's logical.  Your pointing out what you say is entirely in the public domain would be 'tainting the result' of an ISAF review board.  Sure, that makes sense.

 

 

I wouldn't expect you to understand.  Nor do I care.  What will be funny is when you try to defend ISAF because you have a hard on for Oracle, and me.  Whatever.

 

You wouldn't expect me to understand because I am a lawyer and you are not?  Do you think you have a special language I don't know?

 

It makes me laugh that you accuse me, the leading critic of ISAF of any writer in the sport, in advance, of defending ISAF, 'because I have a hard on for Oracle, and you."

 

No one has a hard on for you, Peter.  That's why you are such a miserable little bitch.

OK OK,  so Clean you want PF to Brokeback  bend over to your point or points ...........  Good luck  .....  you guys are so sensitive.     



#844 aldo

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 05:48 PM

While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.
I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.
 
It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.

When Larry was doing the right thing for the sport, we were fans.
 
After he got 'the precious' and went off the rails, we were no longer fans.
 
Pretty simple.

there are many if not most that would disagree with your evaluation and criticism of 34 and how it"
went off the rails"
and your front page MSP like rant about Bart just proves how clouded your judgment is.

#845 SW Sailor

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:09 PM

 

While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.
I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.
 
It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.

When Larry was doing the right thing for the sport, we were fans.
 
After he got 'the precious' and went off the rails, we were no longer fans.
 
Pretty simple.

there are many if not most that would disagree with your evaluation and criticism of 34 and how it"
went off the rails"
and your front page MSP like rant about Bart just proves how clouded your judgment is.

 

What went off the rails here was the hate filled lynch mob assault on PC with the pitchfork armed torch bearing politically tainted idiots that also demanded Artemis withdraw from the competition entirely after ET2's request to pull the challenger elimination series in to prior to the Artemis launch date failed. An all-time SA low water mark that reeked of pure stench and mob mentality.

 

Funny how vile the FP criticism did a 180 spin when the comeback started taking shape. Character of a weather vein - position du jour.

 

And clean wonders why so many ignore him after publically and repeatedly torching high level figures.



#846 davidprobable

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:48 PM

 

While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.
I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.
 
It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.

When Larry was doing the right thing for the sport, we were fans.
 
After he got 'the precious' and went off the rails, we were no longer fans.
 
Pretty simple.

there are many if not most that would disagree with your evaluation and criticism of 34 and how it"
went off the rails"
and your front page MSP like rant about Bart just proves how clouded your judgment is.

A lame rant ... doesn't really qualify as such.......is rather just asking "why" ?   Reasonable question.   A death is a death is a death.    It should not be treated with incompetence  just because  its sailing.   Clean has a point.    More upsetting is that none of the money goes to Leah.    The pride with which the honcho points out that all the money is going into bricks and mortar ,   as it were ,   of his  organization ,   rather than directly to the kids is quite off putting.    That's the problem with many charities.   Money for infrastructure and minions but very little left over for the raison d'etre.     Give Clean a break on this one I should think.   



#847 PeterHuston

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:12 PM

I'm not going to keep rearguing the simple point about Dirk: that it is entirely possible he may not have done that of what he was accused.

 

This whole thread doesn't even come close to touching on why the process gave the result it did.   Not saying Oracle didn't screw up, they admitted they did.  I'm only talking about Dirk.

I think this is the key difference between us. I agree that it is possible that DdR may not have done what he is accused of because the burden of proof for something like this has to be less than a criminal case where it is 'beyond all reasonable doubt". If you try to apply that to sport, you would screw all sports. However, from everything i have read and been told, I think it is probable that DdR did do what everybody accused him of. Moreover, you seem to be more interested in the whole "process' thing than you are on who did what, which regrettably, is the American way. Very few if any other jurisdictions are so obsessed with process to the point that people who are clearly guilty of major crimes get off on a regular basis. What is even more interesting is that I do not see any reduction in the number of miscarriages of justice in the USA than in other jurisdictions, such as, for instance, the UK which isn't anywhere near to be as obsessed with process and "constitutional rights".

 

And now for my final word on the rights and wrongs of the IJ's ruling on DdR. I know some of the IJ and have met all but one member. On that jury, there are a few people I do not rate at all and if those people were found to have acted improperly, I wouldn't be shocked. However, there were a few on that jury who I would bet everything i have on their integrity. I know those individuals would speak out if things were not done right. I know they couldn't be bought off as some might suggest. They would not keep quiet if they were anything but convinced by the verdict they were adding their names to. I Peter says that under his view of the law there were procedural cock ups, fine, but for the few I would totally rely on, if they did not have an overwhelming belief that DdR was guilt as charged, they would not have added their name to the verdict.

 

Actually, what I see is not a minor technicality that is going to get Dirk off.  It was some major fundamental errors by the ACIJ. I'll be charitable for the moment and call those errors in the hearing.  But there's more, much more.

 

And I don't want to tar all of ISAF with the same brush.  There's plenty of people who serve ISAF that do a damn good job.  There are a handful of others who have let things go to their head.

 

For the time being, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the Review Board, or at least the guy that ran Dirk's hearing.  I'm told he's a pretty solid guy.



#848 Trickypig

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:54 AM

PH constantly refers to everyone important in the AC by their first names and then says there are things he knows that he can't divulge. He says there's `much much more' when he hasn't said anything.

 

What's the point of this ?

 

I'll tell you... whatever the outcome he'll then say that he was aware of it all but that it is what he couldn't tell us.

 

It means nothing. It's just a way of grandstanding when you have nothing other than a photo with the Oracle guys and a friendship with Tom Ehman.

 

Like that other poster said "All hat and no cattle".



#849 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:18 AM

I can only see 3 hypotheses for PH posts.

 

1) We know that one of Larry's favorite tactic is to pressure the other party. He already does it with SF official with other possible venues like Hawai. Amusing though, Bajurin fucked up after a few scotch with the local press, telling them that swell would not allow the AC there.

On the same register PH is putting pressure on ISAF pretending he knows confidential information, which can be used by "evil" Ehman to negotiate a deal stripping them of most powers, otherwise he will sue the "culprits".

 

2) OR is aware of some wrong doing, like it happens in any organization, but pretends the info is public because they got them illegally. Then it will be easy for them to say : we know it because it was public. My bet is that Isaf could retaliate by making an inquiry on how OR got these info.

 

3) Both of the above hypotheses.

 

But let's be clear, PH is a tool, as he has been before. He recognized calling Ehman and Larry himself about the MSP "manipulation".



#850 SW Sailor

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:31 AM

This is not about if OTUSA cheated in the ACWS, they did and it was wrong, whether malicious or procedural or not, that fact stands. Aside from that, I've laid low on this matter as I don't have all the facts, and neither do most here for that matter. That much I do know for sure.

 

This is as much about what happened ~after~ the fact as anything, for those that have lost sight of the thread's title.

 

It's hard to tell what actually took place in the hearings from just reading the jury notices, as that's what they elected to report, and not all of what actually took place was reported, for sure. So for those sitting in front of your computer acting as judge and jury based on the ACIJ ruling and what was reported, their was, and usually is, a back story which has yet to surface.

 

I had the opportunity to speak to people very closely connected to this matter, both on September 7th and on the 8th while watching the AC, people that are very experienced in these specific matters, and very well qualified in these areas, and were definitely in the know about details of the hearings. The people and their credentials will remain nameless, but what is important is that they have also known Dirk personally for a very long time, and they think something was very wrong with the way this went down, very wrong. The simple fact is they certainly know way more than anyone here sitting in front of a computer reading SA in all it's glory.

 

Not sure how this will pan out and I'm not predicting anything one way or another, but these people were directly involved or aware and almost no one here was - so flap your gums all you want and make your childish claim "all hat and no cattle", but virtually nothing is known of the full set of facts by most all posters here except what has been published. Rest assured their is a very viable back story to this whole debacle that may well have serious repercussions.

 

And in terms of being obligated to disclose everything of what one knows, get real.



#851 SW Sailor

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:36 AM

I can only see 3 hypotheses for PH posts.

 

1) We know that one of Larry's favorite tactic is to pressure the other party. He already does it with SF official with other possible venues like Hawai. Amusing though, Bajurin fucked up after a few scotch with the local press, telling them that swell would not allow the AC there.

On the same register PH is putting pressure on ISAF pretending he knows confidential information, which can be used by "evil" Ehman to negotiate a deal stripping them of most powers, otherwise he will sue the "culprits".

 

2) OR is aware of some wrong doing, like it happens in any organization, but pretends the info is public because they got them illegally. Then it will be easy for them to say : we know it because it was public. My bet is that Isaf could retaliate by making an inquiry on how OR got these info.

 

3) Both of the above hypotheses.

 

But let's be clear, PH is a tool, as he has been before. He recognized calling Ehman and Larry himself about the MSP "manipulation".

 

Thanks for confirming your stupidity, which we already knew.

 

Go have another scotch and go to bed.



#852 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:37 AM

This is not about if OTUSA cheated in the ACWS, they did and it was wrong, whether malicious or procedural or not, that fact stands. Aside from that, I've laid low on this matter as I don't have all the facts, and neither do most here for that matter. That much I do know for sure.

 

This is as much about what happened ~after~ the fact as anything, for those that have lost sight of the thread's title.

 

It's hard to tell what actually took place in the hearings from just reading the jury notices, as that's what they elected to report, and not all of what actually took place was reported, for sure. So for those sitting in front of your computer acting as judge and jury based on the ACIJ ruling and what was reported, their was, and usually is, a back story which has yet to surface.

 

I had the opportunity to speak to people very closely connected to this matter, both on September 7th and on the 8th while watching the AC, people that are very experienced in these specific matters, and very well qualified in these areas, and were definitely in the know about details of the hearings. The people and their credentials will remain nameless, but what is important is that they have also known Dirk personally for a very long time, and they think something was very wrong with the way this went down, very wrong. The simple fact is they certainly know way more than anyone here sitting in front of a computer reading SA in all it's glory.

 

Not sure how this will pan out and I'm not predicting anything one way or another, but these people were directly involved or aware and almost no one here was - so flap your gums all you want and make your childish claim "all hat and no cattle", but virtually nothing is known of the full set of facts by most all posters here except what has been published. Rest assured their is a very viable back story to this whole debacle that may well have serious repercussions.

 

And in terms of being obligated to disclose everything of what one knows, get real.

 

 

 

Anyone that thinks I would share the details of the discussion here obviously doesn't get exposed to this type of information to begin with.  

------ :lol:------

 

'''''''''''''''''''' :lol:  ''''''''''''''''''''' 

 

watch out the soiler has contracted the ph virus 

 

wow ggyc must be in real trouble 

 

if they are trying to get sheep soiler to regurg little peters spin since spinray wasnt any good at it either 

 

cheaters at ortusa and ggyc must be getting fearful ... I wonder why .......



#853 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:39 AM

Amusing. SWS, you did not write that by yourself . Not your style at all, seems like copy&paste from a email you just received. The writer was smart enough to include some of your usual Sakespearean mistakes.

 

Deny it now. :)



#854 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:41 AM

I can only see 3 hypotheses for PH posts.

 

1) We know that one of Larry's favorite tactic is to pressure the other party. He already does it with SF official with other possible venues like Hawai. Amusing though, Bajurin fucked up after a few scotch with the local press, telling them that swell would not allow the AC there.

On the same register PH is putting pressure on ISAF pretending he knows confidential information, which can be used by "evil" Ehman to negotiate a deal stripping them of most powers, otherwise he will sue the "culprits".

 

2) OR is aware of some wrong doing, like it happens in any organization, but pretends the info is public because they got them illegally. Then it will be easy for them to say : we know it because it was public. My bet is that Isaf could retaliate by making an inquiry on how OR got these info.

 

3) Both of the above hypotheses.

 

But let's be clear, PH is a tool, as he has been before. He recognized calling Ehman and Larry himself about the MSP "manipulation".

 

Thanks for confirming your stupidity, which we already knew.

 

Go have another scotch and go to bed.

That is you :lol:



#855 SW Sailor

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:51 AM

Amusing. SWS, you did not write that by yourself . Not your style at all, seems like copy&paste from a email you just received. The writer was smart enough to include some of your usual Sakespearean mistakes.

 

Deny it now. :)

 

Trust me -  you've proven time and time again just how stupid you can be, especially when drinking.

 

And no, it is not a copy and paste as you suggest, which either confirms your stupidity or your drunken state, take your pick.



#856 SW Sailor

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:57 AM

This is not about if OTUSA cheated in the ACWS, they did and it was wrong, whether malicious or procedural or not, that fact stands. Aside from that, I've laid low on this matter as I don't have all the facts, and neither do most here for that matter. That much I do know for sure.

 

This is as much about what happened ~after~ the fact as anything, for those that have lost sight of the thread's title.

 

It's hard to tell what actually took place in the hearings from just reading the jury notices, as that's what they elected to report, and not all of what actually took place was reported, for sure. So for those sitting in front of your computer acting as judge and jury based on the ACIJ ruling and what was reported, their was, and usually is, a back story which has yet to surface.

 

I had the opportunity to speak to people very closely connected to this matter, both on September 7th and on the 8th while watching the AC, people that are very experienced in these specific matters, and very well qualified in these areas, and were definitely in the know about details of the hearings. The people and their credentials will remain nameless, but what is important is that they have also known Dirk personally for a very long time, and they think something was very wrong with the way this went down, very wrong. The simple fact is they certainly know way more than anyone here sitting in front of a computer reading SA in all it's glory.

 

Not sure how this will pan out and I'm not predicting anything one way or another, but these people were directly involved or aware and almost no one here was - so flap your gums all you want and make your childish claim "all hat and no cattle", but virtually nothing is known of the full set of facts by most all posters here except what has been published. Rest assured their is a very viable back story to this whole debacle that may well have serious repercussions.

 

And in terms of being obligated to disclose everything of what one knows, get real.

 

 

 

Anyone that thinks I would share the details of the discussion here obviously doesn't get exposed to this type of information to begin with.  


 

watch out the soiler has contracted the ph virus 

You've threatened countless lawsuits against everyone, for fraud, etc. Aside from giving Admiral clean steamers in the back room, maybe you can tell the entire forum why you have never filed a single suit ?



#857 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:06 AM

Amusing. SWS, you did not write that by yourself . Not your style at all, seems like copy&paste from a email you just received. The writer was smart enough to include some of your usual Sakespearean mistakes.

 

Deny it now. :)

your right on - TC 

 

he had it supplied to him - he was too lame and a loser of low iq - just re gurging same spin -

 

demon ehman sent it to him from the spin factory at oracle  hdgtrs 

 

its all scripted ggyc /acea / acrm  cayard coverup   -hilarious - 

 

they have a team writing their bs 24 /7  and supply the paid posters = paid fingers 

 

ph -spinray  -soiler  - aldo  -mariner -  sunseeker - I guess they have to try and make a living some how - pity 



#858 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:21 AM


Amusing. SWS, you did not write that by yourself . Not your style at all, seems like copy&paste from a email you just received. The writer was smart enough to include some of your usual Sakespearean mistakes.

 

Deny it now. :)

 

Trust me -  you've proven time and time again just how stupid you can be, especially when drinking.

 

And no, it is not a copy and paste as you suggest, which either confirms your stupidity or your drunken state, take your pick.

I am just a paid poster and get free booze from ggyc

 

Attached File  SA PAID puppets.png   305.68K   10 downloads



#859 SW Sailor

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:31 AM

Amusing. SWS, you did not write that by yourself . Not your style at all, seems like copy&paste from a email you just received. The writer was smart enough to include some of your usual Sakespearean mistakes.

 

Deny it now. :)

your right on - TC 

 


ph -spinray  -soiler  - aldo  -mariner -  sunseeker - I guess they have to try and make a living some how - pity 

 

So here we have it folks, the trash of SA.

 

TC makes a claim and MSP agrees with it - two of the most credible posters on SA :lol:

 

Get a room boys, you deserve each other.



#860 nav

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:53 AM

PH constantly refers to everyone important in the AC by their first names and then says there are things he knows that he can't divulge. He says there's `much much more' when he hasn't said anything.
 
What's the point of this ?
 
I'll tell you... whatever the outcome he'll then say that he was aware of it all but that it is what he couldn't tell us.
 
It means nothing. It's just a way of grandstanding when you have nothing other than a photo with the Oracle guys and a friendship with Tom Ehman.
 
Like that other poster said "All hat and no cattle".

Scenario:
Some old guy,propping up bars all over town, (used to be) somewhat involved in sailing, but never had the talent, or was not generous enough with his time, or was not adequately qualified to move into sailing management/administration at top levels, but is jealous of and back-stabbing towards those who did?

Is that kook behind ADM his sister by any chance - same genes/MO.

#861 SimonN

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 01:40 PM

PH constantly refers to everyone important in the AC by their first names and then says there are things he knows that he can't divulge. He says there's `much much more' when he hasn't said anything.
 
What's the point of this ?
 
I'll tell you... whatever the outcome he'll then say that he was aware of it all but that it is what he couldn't tell us.
 
It means nothing. It's just a way of grandstanding when you have nothing other than a photo with the Oracle guys and a friendship with Tom Ehman.
 
Like that other poster said "All hat and no cattle".

Scenario:
Some old guy,propping up bars all over town, (used to be) somewhat involved in sailing, but never had the talent, or was not generous enough with his time, or was not adequately qualified to move into sailing management/administration at top levels, but is jealous of and back-stabbing towards those who did?

Is that kook behind ADM his sister by any chance - same genes/MO.

You need to go do some homework. I might disagree with some of the positions he takes, but Peter has achieved more in our sport and given more back than most on here and certainly doesn't deserve half the comments he gets.



#862 nav

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 01:46 PM

^
"You need to go do some homework" = "It's all public if you know where to look"!? :)


Thanks but I'll just take him (and leave him) as he comes across.....

#863 floater

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:33 PM


While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.
I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.
 
It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.

When Larry was doing the right thing for the sport, we were fans.
 
After he got 'the precious' and went off the rails, we were no longer fans.
 
Pretty simple.

"gee Dad - where did you watch AC34 from - a boat or the shore? It must have been incredible to be there...plus you got to interview all the famous people - when they made history!"

"Well, err, no son - think I had to paint the garage or something..."

#864 PeterHuston

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:34 PM

 

PH constantly refers to everyone important in the AC by their first names and then says there are things he knows that he can't divulge. He says there's `much much more' when he hasn't said anything.
 
What's the point of this ?
 
I'll tell you... whatever the outcome he'll then say that he was aware of it all but that it is what he couldn't tell us.
 
It means nothing. It's just a way of grandstanding when you have nothing other than a photo with the Oracle guys and a friendship with Tom Ehman.
 
Like that other poster said "All hat and no cattle".

Scenario:
Some old guy,propping up bars all over town, (used to be) somewhat involved in sailing, but never had the talent, or was not generous enough with his time, or was not adequately qualified to move into sailing management/administration at top levels, but is jealous of and back-stabbing towards those who did?

Is that kook behind ADM his sister by any chance - same genes/MO.

You need to go do some homework. I might disagree with some of the positions he takes, but Peter has achieved more in our sport and given more back than most on here and certainly doesn't deserve half the comments he gets.

 

 

Thanks Simon. It's pretty easy to ignore caustic comments from someone who hides behind a screen name.  It is actually a good laugh.  If he knew anything about me, he'd know I barely drink alcohol and hardly spend any time in bars.  While not exactly as young as I'd like to think I am, I'm hardly considered old, or old acting.

 

The disappointing thing for me about comments like Nav's is they simply do not match the sort of things I have experienced from other Kiwi's with whom I have had something significant to do with in the sport, particularly all the Kiwi's that came to Balboa YC for the Governor's Cup.  There isn't a single one of those people who I would not invite to spend a night in my house.

 

There's also more than a few Kiwi's who are pretty troubled by the way this whole thing went down with Dirk, people who have seriously mattered to the sport.

 

I hope that in the long run, when the time is appropriate after all the facts come out about what really went on behind the scenes that everyone can take a cool headed view of the entire process of the way we run hearings in sailing and ask "is this correct?".  There are age old, if not ancient, cultural and customary differences in the way the legal process works around the world.  How do we balance that in a global sport that spans beginner recreational racing, to billionaires playing for keeps?



#865 davidprobable

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:20 PM

i now pronounce you man  and  ..............which one of you is the wife?



#866 nav

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 03:48 PM

^^ I guess you don't come across as quite so pompous* in person then?

 

You yourself stated you had got yet another lot of 'insider info too significant to reveal here' from 'a person too important to name', while in an unnamed SF bar. Denial?

 

Interesting how you are so concerned with 'correctness' - but only of one very small aspect of the last cup, (which your talking points partner swallower insists is over by the way - did you miss that memo?) but you chose to ignore much more fundamental issues connected with the event. Why is it that 'your personal concerns', so often line up with one particular team's 'concern-of-the-day'?

 

*polite mode



#867 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:06 PM

I had the opportunity to speak to people very closely connected to this matter, both on September 7th and on the 8th while watching the AC, people that are very experienced in these specific matters, and very well qualified in these areas, and were definitely in the know about details of the hearings. The people and their credentials will remain nameless


And in terms of being obligated to disclose everything of what one knows, get real.

Well, thanks for this interesting post SWS.



#868 SW Sailor

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 04:32 PM

Interesting how you are so concerned with 'correctness' - but only of one very small aspect of the last cup, (which your talking points partner swallower insists is over by the way - did you miss that memo?) but you chose to ignore much more fundamental issues connected with the event. Why is it that 'your personal concerns', so often line up with one particular team's 'concern-of-the-day'?

 

*idiot mode

 

for you and TC AC34 may never be over, but for the rest of the world it's in the books as one of the best competitions in over 160 years.

 

lucky for you it's still on you-tube.



#869 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:54 PM

The inquest will be held on May 21st in Bournemouth, UK.



#870 PeterHuston

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:36 AM

The inquest will be held on May 21st in Bournemouth, UK.

 

What inquest?



#871 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:53 AM

The inquest will be held on May 21st in Bournemouth, UK.

 

What inquest?

Inquest into the death of Bart will be postponed from May 21st at 10am in Dorchester to May 21st at 2pm in Bournemouth.



#872 PeterHuston

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 01:26 AM

 

The inquest will be held on May 21st in Bournemouth, UK.

 

What inquest?

Inquest into the death of Bart will be postponed from May 21st at 10am in Dorchester to May 21st at 2pm in Bournemouth.

 

Not sure what that has to do with this thread.



#873 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 02:54 AM

 

 

The inquest will be held on May 21st in Bournemouth, UK.

 

What inquest?

Inquest into the death of Bart will be postponed from May 21st at 10am in Dorchester to May 21st at 2pm in Bournemouth.

 

Not sure what that has to do with this thread.

Agreed, I should have posted it in the Artemis thread.



#874 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:08 AM


 


 


 


The inquest will be held on May 21st in Bournemouth, UK.

 

What inquest?

Inquest into the death of Bart will be postponed from May 21st at 10am in Dorchester to May 21st at 2pm in Bournemouth.

 

Not sure what that has to do with this thread.

Agreed, I should have posted it in the Artemis thread.

SAME ISSUEs ON COVER UP -cheating bs from ggyc -cayard -acrm iian murray 

 

where is isaf / acea / acrm - us sailing - 

 

he was killed by defective vessel with structural and equipment failures due to waiver of inspected vessels by uscg 

 

yes  its in the report I FOIA'D /CPRA'D 

 

maybe uk folks will get him some justice 

 

Attached File  UK INQUEST 01 SF ME AC TRUST CPRA 01.PNG   205.68K   19 downloads



#875 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 07:26 AM

 


 


 



 

What inquest?

Inquest into the death of Bart will be postponed from May 21st at 10am in Dorchester to May 21st at 2pm in Bournemouth.

 

Not sure what that has to do with this thread.

Agreed, I should have posted it in the Artemis thread.

SAME ISSUEs ON COVER UP -blah blah blah I'm a dumbass and AHOLE

 

where is isaf / acea / acrm - us sailing - maybe they know I'm a hot air bag which is why they ignore me.

 

 

So quit flapping your gums and sue them, isn't that your standard protocol or don't you have the stones to do so ?



#876 Trickypig

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 09:31 AM

 Peter has achieved more in our sport and given more back than most on here and certainly doesn't deserve half the comments he gets.

Given that most of here don't know PH from a bar of soap other than his posts, you may need to elaborate on that claim for us.

 

… and IF you expect us to rely on his posts to evidence this `achieved more' and `given more back' exaltation, then it's a miss.



#877 PeterHuston

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:35 AM

 Peter has achieved more in our sport and given more back than most on here and certainly doesn't deserve half the comments he gets.

Given that most of here don't know PH from a bar of soap other than his posts, you may need to elaborate on that claim for us.

 

… and IF you expect us to rely on his posts to evidence this `achieved more' and `given more back' exaltation, then it's a miss.

 

How amusing, a guy that hides behind a screen name wants to know more about someone else, while staying invisible.

 

Most of what I've done in the sport is behind the scenes, for the benefit of the sport.  Sailed plenty too.  There's lots of people who do that sort of thing, maybe you are even one of them.  But we'd never know, would we. 



#878 PeterHuston

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:42 AM

SAME ISSUEs ON COVER UP -cheating bs from ggyc -cayard -acrm iian murray 

 

where is isaf / acea / acrm - us sailing - 

 

he was killed by defective vessel with structural and equipment failures due to waiver of inspected vessels by uscg 

 

yes  its in the report I FOIA'D /CPRA'D 

 

maybe uk folks will get him some justice 

 

attachicon.gifUK INQUEST 01 SF ME AC TRUST CPRA 01.PNG

 

Sounds like you need to sue the USCG then for failure to inspect.



#879 Trickypig

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 01:08 PM

 

 Peter has achieved more in our sport and given more back than most on here and certainly doesn't deserve half the comments he gets.

Given that most of here don't know PH from a bar of soap other than his posts, you may need to elaborate on that claim for us.

 

… and IF you expect us to rely on his posts to evidence this `achieved more' and `given more back' exaltation, then it's a miss.

 

How amusing, a guy that hides behind a screen name wants to know more about someone else, while staying invisible.

 

Most of what I've done in the sport is behind the scenes, for the benefit of the sport.  Sailed plenty too.  There's lots of people who do that sort of thing, maybe you are even one of them.  But we'd never know, would we. 

No, I don't want to know more about you.

 

It's SimonN who wants to exalt you.



#880 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 01:12 PM

 


While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.
I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.
 
It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.

When Larry was doing the right thing for the sport, we were fans.
 
After he got 'the precious' and went off the rails, we were no longer fans.
 
Pretty simple.

"gee Dad - where did you watch AC34 from - a boat or the shore?"

 

"From a bar full of C-Cat sailors at the Little America's Cup.  You know, son - the guys sailing wingsailed cats forty years before the big America's Cup"

 

I think I'll be OK.



#881 floater

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 05:11 PM

I guess it's true then: If you push your head into the sand - and push it deep enough - it's bound to pop up somewhere.

#882 davidprobable

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 11:01 PM

 

 


While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.
I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.
 
It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.

When Larry was doing the right thing for the sport, we were fans.
 
After he got 'the precious' and went off the rails, we were no longer fans.
 
Pretty simple.

"gee Dad - where did you watch AC34 from - a boat or the shore?"

 

"From a bar full of C-Cat sailors at the Little America's Cup.  You know, son - the guys sailing wingsailed cats forty years before the big America's Cup"

 

I think I'll be OK.

But how did you do this?   Magnus and  Fred  have no recollection of a bearded bald islamist hanging around bitching at people for drinking.....were you a holograph in your own mind?     Sadly you won't be ok.    Your posts are all Mer needs in her affidavit to be rid of you  and  have her own life.........42 Clean.   Thx for all the fish.



#883 bluesea

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:37 PM

 

 


While we are on the subject of Clean's hard-on for Oracle.  Does anyone know the reason he suddenly had a change of heart from AC33.
I fondly remember the many fawning interviews with the 17 members about Dogzilla.
 
It can't be that they have better transvestites in NZ than SF.

When Larry was doing the right thing for the sport, we were fans.
 
After he got 'the precious' and went off the rails, we were no longer fans.
 
Pretty simple.

"gee Dad - where did you watch AC34 from - a boat or the shore?"

 

"From a bar full of C-Cat sailors at the Little America's Cup.  You know, son - the guys sailing wingsailed cats forty years before the big America's Cup"

 

I think I'll be OK.

 

 

 

No doubt in my mind you'll be ok, but clearly there's bravado in your statement. 



#884 bruno

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 02:56 PM

Bravado or braggadocio?

#885 GGYC

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 12:12 AM

http://www.newstalkz...e-against-kiwis



#886 Miss Golightly

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 07:09 PM

Check out this link from ISAF site http://www.sailing.o...ing_parties.php  

 

look at the bottom for the working party of Rule 69 & Judicial Matters. Between this work group and the Disciplinairy Commision all the of the ACIJ were involved in writing the rules for the new Disciplinairy Commision while they were dealing with the AC protest. That is a huge conflict of interest and it shows that OTUSA cannot trust ISAF because they will change the regulations and rules to fit there ruling. I wonder what the IOC or CAS has to say about a federation that acts in this way?



#887 Guitar

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:28 PM

Has anyone ever posted an image or graphic of where exactly the weights were placed, how much exactly the weight was and where the other "cheating" occurred on the 45's?

I'm still trying to visualize this event and with DDR still under the guns of ISAF and the new 62's coming (sometime in the future) I wanted to see the actual boat with the changes locations and specs.

 

Anybody?



#888 JackGriffin

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 05:19 PM

I wrote an article on this with the drawings and photos from the IJ documents:

http://www.cupexperi...scandal-penalty



#889 Guitar

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:40 PM

Sweet! Thanks Jack, I thought you had done this but couldn't find it. Did any experts lend an assessment of the percentage of benefit of the change?



#890 aldo

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:45 PM

Yes, two races to a gleeful NZ team.



#891 Guitar

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 01:29 PM

Hah,

 

Not trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to understand, still, why this was done and what was gained. other than the two race, loss of main wing trimmer, etc.



#892 floater

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:43 PM

It would be nice to know what they were thinking.

#893 JackGriffin

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:30 PM

Sweet! Thanks Jack, I thought you had done this but couldn't find it. Did any experts lend an assessment of the percentage of benefit of the change?

No one has said there was a significant benefit. The size of the benefit is irrelevant to the question of whether there was cheating. Making mods to a OD boat is verboten.

 

Why did they do it? Was there a cash bonus for winning the ACWS? Was there no bonus, but a lot of competitive juice flowing? We don't know.

 

Was it a massively stupid thing to do? Yes, IMHO.

Was it even dumber to get caught? Absolutely.

 

Who else knew in the team? Well...   Someone made some drawings for the modified spigots. Someone machined them. The guy doing the machining may just have been working through the day's list of jobs, but the guy who made the drawings had to have known it wasn't kosher. Who else knew?

 

Is five years too hard a sentence for DDR? Yes, IMHO.



#894 Miss Golightly

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:35 PM

Yes, it would be nice to know what Bryce was thinking



#895 Guitar

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:48 PM

Looking at the spigot, if there was movement in the strut I could see making the insert longer for better stability. Moving the lead to the king post? I just can't see anyone taking this as a benefit so how could it be cheating? Did the boat still weigh in? If so, where did they trim the weight from?

 

Adding that very small insert as well, cheaper than making a new shroud, or whatever that cable is called for the king post.

 

Just like the comments on the vinyl labels, did anyone place them 10 mm further forward than the other boats?

 

I understand one design, but, jeez.



#896 floater

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:00 PM

If any boat in the fleet required extra carbon for repair - all boats must add weight to match. Down low - near the chain plates.

But instead dropping weight into the can would move it forward (perhaps beneficial) but also higher (not so much).

There are two posts - so adding weight to the forward post really might affect trim (ever so slightly). But adding weight to the aft post?

It happened. It doesn't make sense - perhaps unless the same boat already was full up can forward.




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