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Selfish: a boat that -I- would actually like


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#101 FishAintBiting

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:41 PM

Fairy's nuts!

 

Thanks ICn for the explanation.



#102 IC Nutter

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:42 PM

Its only a metre wide

 

yeh.. but (4.2 x 2.5(say) x .004)m^3 * 600kg.m^-3 = 15kg just in 4mm ply.

 

Add glass, frames, mast/shroud structure, glue, fittings, mast, boom, CB, rudder etc 

 

doable ?

 

I'm basing the design on 3mm ply at about 450kg.m^-3, based on few sheets of gaboon ply that I weighed a while ago. It's getting harder to source good quality ply, so the density may not be as low as that. I would plan to use Dynal sheathing, which is light and provides a durable surface. The mechanical properties of Dynal are about the same as wood, so the wood is fully utilised as the structural material rather than just being a heavy core material for some exotic skins. My current plan is that the 3mm ply shell will be supported by 3mm ply frames spaced at 150mm (located as shown on the images). This means that there will be a lot of frames to cut and a lot of glue fillets, but at least with stitch and glue construction, no jigs or moulds will be required.



#103 BalticBandit

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:18 PM

 

My experience is that pump systems make it much harder to raise and douse.... but then my first Asso dinghy kite was a 49er

...holy thread-hijack batman!...don't know why this stuff isn't in the S'handed chute thread :unsure:

 

....yer used a pump on your 49r chute?!.....  an early daze experiment I guess! ..thanks for saving the world from it! :)

......I've got one of those kicking around,seems to make sense for S'handing--might try it on the (HOOT!) if the 1:3 doesn't work.

 

 

..........actually,I'm really glad I wasn't around 49ers in the first couple of cycles...I can thank your lot that I could walk in to a set of rig tension #'s,,,rev9's to put them on,,,,,,,,  no vanguards,,,and economical used boats!

No the pump system was rigged on the 5oh I sailed (we tossed it right away) - a 470 I've sailed (I just ignored it and hoisted with pulls much faster)  and the RS 700 I sailed (ibid 470).    I'm a firm believer in Murphy.... And it paid,  while racing an MPS against the 700 I watched it go from 4th to 10th at the leeward mark because the pump system jammed and he had to crash to take down the kite



#104 couchsurfer

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:44 PM

Regarding the cockpit, although a lot of people seem to see it as a bad feature, I quite like the Laser footwell. I find the Laser to be reasonably comfortable in light winds compared to boats with a shallow, wide dish type cockpit. What I have tried to do here is to get a deep but narrow footwell with widish side decks. The central spine which blends into the rudder support should help as a footrest when getting out onto the trap and also provides a bit of extra depth for the daggerboard case.

...with a 'wide-ish sidedeck',,and a 'deep narrow footwell',,,I'm wondering where you'll step in a lull?

...on a 3'beam,,it's sounding like a 2' step at least,,x 1000 for each puff,lull,,,or is that the WLbeam??

#105 Phil S

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 10:13 PM

Small, light trapeze boat:

25kg for the hull is very feasable. All up weight at moth numbers is well on target. My 17ft ply IC hull weighs 35kg, take 3ft off the back, add only a little width and delete the bulkheads for the sliding seat rails will all save heaps in a ply boat. In foam glass weight would be about the same, in foam carbon would save maybe 8 more kg.

Moth size rig because it would have no more RM than a moth, ie feet 500mm off the CL.

We are not talking gell coat, buffers or a crash roof tub suitable for docking or dragging up a beach, we are talking a small fast racing boat which will live and launch from a dolly, just like all racing sailors use. It should be liftable moth style on its side if the site requires it.

It would not go like a foiling moth but should go as well as a lowrider due to extra length, but with better laser like initial stability. And it would be a pleasue to sail without laser leg pain.



#106 IC Nutter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:05 AM

Regarding the cockpit, although a lot of people seem to see it as a bad feature, I quite like the Laser footwell. I find the Laser to be reasonably comfortable in light winds compared to boats with a shallow, wide dish type cockpit. What I have tried to do here is to get a deep but narrow footwell with widish side decks. The central spine which blends into the rudder support should help as a footrest when getting out onto the trap and also provides a bit of extra depth for the daggerboard case.

...with a 'wide-ish sidedeck',,and a 'deep narrow footwell',,,I'm wondering where you'll step in a lull?

...on a 3'beam,,it's sounding like a 2' step at least,,x 1000 for each puff,lull,,,or is that the WLbeam??

 

'Deep' and 'narrow' being relative terms, but I take your point. The ergonomics do need to be looked at in more detail before the design is finalised. The objective is to have a boat which is reasonably comfortable in light airs as well as being easy enough to get out and in off the trap.

 

1m is the overall beam.



#107 couchsurfer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:30 AM

Regarding the cockpit, although a lot of people seem to see it as a bad feature, I quite like the Laser footwell. I find the Laser to be reasonably comfortable in light winds compared to boats with a shallow, wide dish type cockpit. What I have tried to do here is to get a deep but narrow footwell with widish side decks. The central spine which blends into the rudder support should help as a footrest when getting out onto the trap and also provides a bit of extra depth for the daggerboard case.

...with a 'wide-ish sidedeck',,and a 'deep narrow footwell',,,I'm wondering where you'll step in a lull?

...on a 3'beam,,it's sounding like a 2' step at least,,x 1000 for each puff,lull,,,or is that the WLbeam??

 
'Deep' and 'narrow' being relative terms, but I take your point. The ergonomics do need to be looked at in more detail before the design is finalised. The objective is to have a boat which is reasonably comfortable in light airs as well as being easy enough to get out and in off the trap.
 
1m is the overall beam.
...yeh,,another for the 'spiral'!
....still think you'd be good t'go with 10m of sail,,,same RM as the **




...........**HOOT!

#108 IC Nutter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:48 AM

....still think you'd be good t'go with 10m of sail,,,same RM as the **




...........**HOOT!

 

Ah yes, but the title of this thread is 'a boat that -I- would actually like', and I only weigh 68 kg :-)

 

Apart from that though, I tend to concur with Phil's thoughts on this. Maybe we just have more wind here.

 

I'm not sure that we should be trying to compete with the Hoot, which is a good boat in it's own right. One of the aims of this design is to be a cheap home build, whereas the Hoot is an SMOD, I presume? I think if Phil's design concept ever took off, it could start off as a development class, but I think I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

BTW, Steam Flyer, we seem to have hijacked your thread. If that's an issue, I should probably start a new one?



#109 Steam Flyer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:54 AM

....still think you'd be good t'go with 10m of sail,,,same RM as the **




...........**HOOT!

 

Ah yes, but the title of this thread is 'a boat that -I- would actually like', and I only weigh 68 kg :-)

 

Apart from that though, I tend to concur with Phil's thoughts on this. Maybe we just have more wind here.

 

I'm not sure that we should be trying to compete with the Hoot, which is a good boat in it's own right. One of the aims of this design is to be a cheap home build, whereas the Hoot is an SMOD, I presume? I think if Phil's design concept ever took off, it could start off as a development class, but I think I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

BTW, Steam Flyer, we seem to have hijacked your thread. If that's an issue, I should probably start a new one?

 

I don't mind; in fact am hoping to pick up some info on build techniques/scantlings etc from you guys that have done more of this.

 

I'd like to get into a trap boat myself but not sure if it would be possible to sail one based from my back yard. The Hoot looks like it could work, primarily because of the float function of the wings and the fact that it's so light.

 

FB- Doug



#110 couchsurfer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:13 AM

....still think you'd be good t'go with 10m of sail,,,same RM as the **




...........**HOOT!

 
Ah yes, but the title of this thread is 'a boat that -I- would actually like', and I only weigh 68 kg :-)
 
Apart from that though, I tend to concur with Phil's thoughts on this. Maybe we just have more wind here.
 
I'm not sure that we should be trying to compete with the Hoot, which is a good boat in it's own right. One of the aims of this design is to be a cheap home build, whereas the Hoot is an SMOD, I presume? I think if Phil's design concept ever took off, it could start off as a development class, but I think I'm getting ahead of myself.
 
BTW, Steam Flyer, we seem to have hijacked your thread. If that's an issue, I should probably start a new one?

 
I don't mind; in fact am hoping to pick up some info on build techniques/scantlings etc from you guys that have done more of this.
 
I'd like to get into a trap boat myself but not sure if it would be possible to sail one based from my back yard. The Hoot looks like it could work, primarily because of the float function of the wings and the fact that it's so light.
 
FB- Doug
...ahh,,yeh,at that weight,,and a breezy locale,,,I'm getting it,,but were you talking 8m?--that's barely larger than a laser!

...I'm not trying t'sell th'hoots here ,so much as they're pretty close,in some ways ,to your parameters,,,they're what I'm getting to know pretty well at this point,,,they've been mentioned here,,,and I love 'em!

....SF.....yes the wing buoyancy is great,,including that 'float-upright without sailor weight',,beach stand' and of course on-water forgiveness functions,,but it is correct that the manufacturing of solid wings is a PITA,,and that solid wings require a lot of weight as well ,,,IMO,,the answer would be fabric wings and frames a la moths!

#111 IC Nutter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:26 AM

Couch, has the Hoot always had solid wings? I thought, from photos a few years back, that the earlier prototypes may have had fabric wings?



#112 IC Nutter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:42 AM

Further info on wood density, a supplier I have used in the past is offering 'Pink Satinwood' marine ply with a stated density of 425kg.m^-3, possibly varying to as low as 350kg.m^-3.



#113 couchsurfer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 04:36 AM

Couch, has the Hoot always had solid wings? I thought, from photos a few years back, that the earlier prototypes may have had fabric wings?

...yeh, apparently it was a very early prototype,,,, though Chris seems to favor the idea of going back to them.
...the way I see it,,,the Hulls are quite easy to dent as they are,,,and if I were to do much in the gorge when it's full-on,,high 20's,,,I'd need to put more weight into the wings too,,,,,,so I'd rather lighten the wings a la moth,,and put -some- of that weight into a beefier hull.I believe there will also be benefit to moving the centre of balance forwards in the process.

#114 FishAintBiting

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 04:52 AM

'''

 

Ah yes, but the title of this thread is 'a boat that -I- would actually like', and I only weigh 68 kg :-)

 

Apart from that though, I tend to concur with Phil's thoughts on this. Maybe we just have more wind here.

 

I'm not sure that we should be trying to compete with the Hoot, which is a good boat in it's own right. One of the aims of this design is to be a cheap home build, whereas the Hoot is an SMOD, I presume? I think if Phil's design concept ever took off, it could start off as a development class, but I think I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

BTW, Steam Flyer, we seem to have hijacked your thread. If that's an issue, I should probably start a new one?

 

Hi ICn,

 

I'm liking your thoughts here.

 

Any chances that you'll give/sell your design to others so they can build it too?

 

Fish



#115 IC Nutter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:14 AM

 

'''

 

Ah yes, but the title of this thread is 'a boat that -I- would actually like', and I only weigh 68 kg :-)

 

Apart from that though, I tend to concur with Phil's thoughts on this. Maybe we just have more wind here.

 

I'm not sure that we should be trying to compete with the Hoot, which is a good boat in it's own right. One of the aims of this design is to be a cheap home build, whereas the Hoot is an SMOD, I presume? I think if Phil's design concept ever took off, it could start off as a development class, but I think I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

BTW, Steam Flyer, we seem to have hijacked your thread. If that's an issue, I should probably start a new one?

 

Hi ICn,

 

I'm liking your thoughts here.

 

Any chances that you'll give/sell your design to others so they can build it too?

 

Fish

 

Fish,

 

Assuming I get the design finished, I'm sure we can come to an arrangement and the more demand there is, the more likely it is that I will finish it.  :-)



#116 JimC

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:45 AM

On the subject of picking sail area, an interesting sum to put in the design calcs spreadsheet is "how much extra breeze makes for the same increase in heeling moment as that much extra rag"?

I've found the results surprising, and its why my inclination is now towards narrower longer slippier hulls.

A Moth sized sail generates a pretty decent amount of power, especially if you're getting plenty of apparent along with it.

#117 facthunt

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:13 AM

 

Its only a metre wide

 

yeh.. but (4.2 x 2.5(say) x .004)m^3 * 600kg.m^-3 = 15kg just in 4mm ply.

 

Add glass, frames, mast/shroud structure, glue, fittings, mast, boom, CB, rudder etc 

 

doable ?

 

I'm basing the design on 3mm ply at about 450kg.m^-3, based on few sheets of gaboon ply that I weighed a while ago. It's getting harder to source good quality ply, so the density may not be as low as that. I would plan to use Dynal sheathing, which is light and provides a durable surface. The mechanical properties of Dynal are about the same as wood, so the wood is fully utilised as the structural material rather than just being a heavy core material for some exotic skins. My current plan is that the 3mm ply shell will be supported by 3mm ply frames spaced at 150mm (located as shown on the images). This means that there will be a lot of frames to cut and a lot of glue fillets, but at least with stitch and glue construction, no jigs or moulds will be required.

Think your getting too trick, I liked the flat panel less frames, if you have sailed a fireball you will know they are heavy stupid looking, but perform surprisingly well.



#118 couchsurfer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:41 PM

On the subject of picking sail area, an interesting sum to put in the design calcs spreadsheet is "how much extra breeze makes for the same increase in heeling moment as that much extra rag"?

I've found the results surprising, and its why my inclination is now towards narrower longer slippier hulls.

A Moth sized sail generates a pretty decent amount of power, especially if you're getting plenty of apparent along with it.

.



...one variable I've been playing with on the ** sails is in playing with the luff-curves---so all sailors use the ~9.7m sail,,,but the lighter sailors use flatter sails....there's ~4'' difference in mid-width which makes a big difference in sailability for different sailor-weights

.....I'm curious ,,do the moth sails need that massive amount of vang to 'generate a pretty decent amount of power'? ...I guess it's a pretty stiff mast they use,,I've got 15:1 on the **





.....**HOOT!

.

#119 IC Nutter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 01:45 PM


 


 


Its only a metre wide

 

yeh.. but (4.2 x 2.5(say) x .004)m^3 * 600kg.m^-3 = 15kg just in 4mm ply.

 

Add glass, frames, mast/shroud structure, glue, fittings, mast, boom, CB, rudder etc 

 

doable ?

 

I'm basing the design on 3mm ply at about 450kg.m^-3, based on few sheets of gaboon ply that I weighed a while ago. It's getting harder to source good quality ply, so the density may not be as low as that. I would plan to use Dynal sheathing, which is light and provides a durable surface. The mechanical properties of Dynal are about the same as wood, so the wood is fully utilised as the structural material rather than just being a heavy core material for some exotic skins. My current plan is that the 3mm ply shell will be supported by 3mm ply frames spaced at 150mm (located as shown on the images). This means that there will be a lot of frames to cut and a lot of glue fillets, but at least with stitch and glue construction, no jigs or moulds will be required.

Think your getting too trick, I liked the flat panel less frames, if you have sailed a fireball you will know they are heavy stupid looking, but perform surprisingly well.

 

The proposed construction is the same whether multi-chine or tortured ply. 3mm panels will be too soft without reducing the panel spans. Attached is an Image of my multi-chine IC design using similar construction:

 

Attached File  IC-091129-03-HullFrames2.png   728.76K   14 downloads



#120 FishAintBiting

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 04:17 PM

ICn,

 

Have you any design rules that are agreed on for boats such as yours?

 

I love a fast boat, but it's really boaring without some competition. Being able to compare Apples with Apples, within the constraints of some rules, might help motivate more people to join in the fun!

 

May you always experience favourable winds.

 

Fish



#121 Phil S

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:06 PM

Attached File  image026.jpg   17.02K   16 downloads

I was thinking more like this many bulkheads. About 450mm c-c. Only next time I'd use kevlar inside not carbon. This is 4mm Ocume with no skin outside.

Was plenty strong enough for IC with sliding seat, may be able to go lighter for trap powered boat.



#122 IC Nutter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:10 PM

I am trying to get away with no fibre skins at all. Engineering challenge or false economy, I'm not sure which.  :P I first saw this type of construction used on some Moths back in the 70's, except they used both transverse and longitudinal framing, egg box style, inside a thin cold moulded skin. Looked awesome. Must have been fun lofting the frames in those days without the help of computer modelling. No laser cutting either!



#123 IC Nutter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:58 PM

... as in no structural fibre skins, the Dynel is for abrasion resistance.



#124 IC Nutter

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:06 AM

ICn,

 

Have you any design rules that are agreed on for boats such as yours?

 

I love a fast boat, but it's really boaring without some competition. Being able to compare Apples with Apples, within the constraints of some rules, might help motivate more people to join in the fun!

 

May you always experience favourable winds.

 

Fish

 

Rules? If we had to make some up I would propose as a start:

 

Max LOA = 4.2m

Max BOA = 1.0m

Max Sail Area = 8sqm.

Hiking assistance = One person on trapeze.



#125 Jethrow

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:38 AM

How wide have moth's settled on now for chainplate widths? Maybe max. width could be this, so Moth rigs would slot straight in. With their stiffness they should take the compression loading from the trap.



#126 Phil S

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:50 AM

Moth masts would be about a foot too short and if lengthenned may well not be stiff enough for trapeze compression loads. May need extra rigging which would be against overall philosophy. So if mast is 50mm dia instead of moth's 40mm older moths sails would suit for a start. I like pocket luffs and consider them quicker to rig single handed than boltropes, but most disagree with me and will choose bolt ropes.  Not many old bolt rope moth sails available though.



#127 couchsurfer

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:51 AM


 
Rules? If we had to make some up I would propose as a start:
 
Max LOA = 4.2m
Max BOA = 1.0m
Max Sail Area = 8sqm.
Hiking assistance = One person on trapeze.

.

...so this is a box rule for very small guys in always big winds?!

......you're talking trapezing from virtually the same beam and sail area as a laser!!!**



.....**(emoticons not functioning,,,so I'll use LOTS of exclamation marks,,,,CAPITALS,,,,,,,,and commas!!!!!!!)

#128 FishAintBiting

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:24 AM

ICn,

 

Have you any design rules that are agreed on for boats such as yours?

 

I love a fast boat, but it's really boaring without some competition. Being able to compare Apples with Apples, within the constraints of some rules, might help motivate more people to join in the fun!

 

May you always experience favourable winds.

 

Fish

 

Rules? If we had to make some up I would propose as a start:

 

Max LOA = 4.2m

Max BOA = 1.0m

Max Sail Area = 8sqm.

Hiking assistance = One person on trapeze.

 

So can I use T-foils?

 

Rotating wing masts?

 

Perhaps use a kite and make the boat much smaller than the others in the class?

 

Carbon Nomex construction to really make it low weight?

 

With these rules I might start making my one quite narrow on the waterline, like the old lowrider Moths. Boat wouldn't be simple to sail but quite quick once I'd worked it out.

 

Could be useful to consider all of these, and perhaps some more too.  What is the philosophy of the class to produce?  Some people wanted something low cost for car racing, so they went for lawnmowers.  Now they have done many things a normal lawnmower isn't to enable them to win. Hmmm...  :blink:



#129 IC Nutter

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:39 AM

It's based on the same righting moment as a Moth, with a similar rig.

 

The Laser beam is close to 1.4m, and the Laser sail area is only just over 7sqm. The moth rig is taller (I think) and certainly has more area in the head than a Laser rig but Ignoring the difference in sail planform, trapezing off the Laser would give you about 25% more righting moment.



#130 IC Nutter

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:49 AM

 

ICn,

 

Have you any design rules that are agreed on for boats such as yours?

 

I love a fast boat, but it's really boaring without some competition. Being able to compare Apples with Apples, within the constraints of some rules, might help motivate more people to join in the fun!

 

May you always experience favourable winds.

 

Fish

 

Rules? If we had to make some up I would propose as a start:

 

Max LOA = 4.2m

Max BOA = 1.0m

Max Sail Area = 8sqm.

Hiking assistance = One person on trapeze.

 

So can I use T-foils?

 

Rotating wing masts?

 

Perhaps use a kite and make the boat much smaller than the others in the class?

 

Carbon Nomex construction to really make it low weight?

 

With these rules I might start making my one quite narrow on the waterline, like the old lowrider Moths. Boat wouldn't be simple to sail but quite quick once I'd worked it out.

 

Could be useful to consider all of these, and perhaps some more too.  What is the philosophy of the class to produce?  Some people wanted something low cost for car racing, so they went for lawnmowers.  Now they have done many things a normal lawnmower isn't to enable them to win. Hmmm...  :blink:

 

Firstly, is anyone seriously interested in this idea? If so, then it's all up for discussion by those who are interested. At the moment it's a vague idea which needs firming up. Objectives like 'low cost' are very hard to enforce if another objective is 'freedom for experimentation'. So the first step is to to more clearly define the objectives. A development class may not be what is required.



#131 couchsurfer

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:15 AM


Firstly, is anyone seriously interested in this idea? .............. At the moment it's a vague idea which needs firming up.

.

...when did that ever stop us--this could be another 'new-class-development'!!!

#132 Amati

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:10 AM

It needs a canting rig, in all directions.......

Really, it's time to catch up.

#133 couchsurfer

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:02 AM

.

...aw,c'mon,,it's already got full-mobility ballast,(patent pending)

.

#134 FishAintBiting

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:10 AM

 

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

Firstly, is anyone seriously interested in this idea? If so, then it's all up for discussion by those who are interested. At the moment it's a vague idea which needs firming up. Objectives like 'low cost' are very hard to enforce if another objective is 'freedom for experimentation'. So the first step is to to more clearly define the objectives. A development class may not be what is required.

 

My interest really would be reflective on what the class would look like (based on restrictions in place).

 

I've sailed 14's and found them disappointing when it became an arms race (with deep pockets required to remain competitive).  By the time I left the class, before T-foils were introduced, the numbers had reduced substantially.  I have limited time, if much of it is required with tinkering then I'm not interested.

 

I'm too small for a contender and although the Farr 3.7 was a blast it got boring really quickly with no one to sail against.

 

Happy sailing,

 

Fish



#135 IC Nutter

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:13 AM

 

 

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

Firstly, is anyone seriously interested in this idea? If so, then it's all up for discussion by those who are interested. At the moment it's a vague idea which needs firming up. Objectives like 'low cost' are very hard to enforce if another objective is 'freedom for experimentation'. So the first step is to to more clearly define the objectives. A development class may not be what is required.

 

My interest really would be reflective on what the class would look like (based on restrictions in place).

 

I've sailed 14's and found them disappointing when it became an arms race (with deep pockets required to remain competitive).  By the time I left the class, before T-foils were introduced, the numbers had reduced substantially.  I have limited time, if much of it is required with tinkering then I'm not interested.

 

I'm too small for a contender and although the Farr 3.7 was a blast it got boring really quickly with no one to sail against.

 

Happy sailing,

 

Fish

 

Ok, so really you don't want a development class and you probably don't want a brand new class either! If you couldn't get any interest in an established class like the Farr 3.7, how are you going to get anyone to sail a class that doesn't even exist?  :blink:​ 



#136 JimC

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:32 AM

how are you going to get anyone to sail a class that doesn't even exist?​ 

This is the big one of course. I'm pretty cynical about the chances of getting a new non manufacturer class off the ground due to the herding cats problem and the number of people who'll talk talk talk but they don't do nothing.
Still I'm in no position to criticise having still not built a new IC.

#137 IC Nutter

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:32 AM

What we have here is an unfilled niche that Phil S identified, i.e. a lightweight, low cost  trapeze singlehander of similar dimensions to a Laser, using a Moth sized rig. I liked the concept and have put up my own interpretation of it, but I'm sure other people have different interpretations regarding hull shape, construction etc.

 

Ideally this niche would be filled by either an SMOD or at least a one design class. The idea of opening it up as a development class is to allow the best solution to surface before freezing the design. But perhaps that could be done at the design stage. How about we set a challenge for interested designers to submit a hull shape and construction philosophy to meet the broad brief? Anyone interested?



#138 Phil S

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 08:03 AM

I think the starting question for this thread was what sort of boat would you like for yourself? Not what sort of class do you want to start from scratch, not what is the best design for **kg and **age, and certainly not what most satisfies the hugely varied and changing wishes of a hand full of keyboard pundits who like to rubbish every new idea , every new design and every person who ever makes a constructive contribution to dinghy design or our sport in general.

 

We stared with Steam Flyer's idea of a simple boat which he could build for his purposes, Others have said what they liked, which has been different, Mall (ICN) and I happen to have similar ideas and since we know each other and live withing a 100 miles of each other we may even one day build one, but we are not trying to start a class, sell boats, or make a million from it.

 

But if what we have suggested proves to be a fun thing to sail and others want one, maybe someone else might take up the concept and make a class from it. If so I just hope the keyboard critics give him a fair go.



#139 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 08:22 AM

What we have here is an unfilled niche that Phil S identified, i.e. a lightweight, low cost  trapeze singlehander of similar dimensions to a Laser, using a Moth sized rig. I liked the concept and have put up my own interpretation of it, but I'm sure other people have different interpretations regarding hull shape, construction etc.?

Lightweight is there already

Trapeze singlehander is there already


so what you are missing is

 

Low Cost
Laser Dimensions
Moth sized rig

 

Now having turboed a Laser II - which is kinda Laser sized, and having sailed it against 29ers and MPSes and Swift Solos, I can tell you that it is underpowered.    I would recommend ditching the Laser Dimensions.  A slight increase in hull length - if you can keep the weight down BELOW a  Laser is great

 

Secondly,  A Moth Sized Rig doesn't need traps.  Even the top Mothies are not flat hiking the way a trapper does and they are going much faster and hence generating more power from AWA.  If you are going to go with Traps,you need a rig that has a bit more grunt in it, particularly at the low end.  you can go a bit smaller than say an MPS or Swift Solo but not a whole lot, Not if you want to be able to be 1/2 string at 8 knots and full string at 12.

 

 

Low cost of course is the big gotcha.  The more power you put in the boat, the more substantial the rig support structure needs to be which either adds weight or cost.

 

 

That said, I'd love a 3mm ply boat that can be laid out on 1-2 sheets of 3mm okume (like the NS12 above) that I can throw a stock rig into ( MPS?  Contender?  )  and go sailing.



#140 Steam Flyer

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:05 PM

I think the starting question for this thread was what sort of boat would you like for yourself?.

 

.... .... ....

 

Zackly. There were a few people who liked my concepts but more who wanted something faster. Which is fine, although I invite anyone who thinks you need high speed and T-foils and traps to come for a sail in our creek when the sea breeze is in... my bet is that you will find plenty of engagement for your skills in a boat like a Laser, my Cyclone, or even the lowly AMF Puffer (which my wife has recently declared is her favorite).

 

A stock rig is a great idea. It's cheaper and less intensive of time & other resources to tinker with hull & foils than it is with rigs.

 

FB- Doug



#141 couchsurfer

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:33 PM

What we have here is an unfilled niche that Phil S identified, i.e. a lightweight, low cost  trapeze singlehander of similar dimensions to a Laser, using a Moth sized rig. I liked the concept and have put up my own interpretation of it, but I'm sure other people have different interpretations regarding hull shape, construction etc.

 

Ideally this niche would be filled by either an SMOD or at least a one design class. The idea of opening it up as a development class is to allow the best solution to surface before freezing the design. But perhaps that could be done at the design stage. How about we set a challenge for interested designers to submit a hull shape and construction philosophy to meet the broad brief? Anyone interested?

 

...how about a box that contains some existing designs--keep it loose so that there's lots of 'fit'

......length,,,weight,,mastheight,,,,SA......and a max 'feet to centreline' rule??

 

......maybe a 'SAD-L' rule,,,where sailor,boat weight and leverage equates to sail area !?

 

What we have here is an unfilled niche that Phil S identified, i.e. a lightweight, low cost  trapeze singlehander of similar dimensions to a Laser, using a Moth sized rig. I liked the concept and have put up my own interpretation of it, but I'm sure other people have different interpretations regarding hull shape, construction etc.?

Lightweight is there already

Trapeze singlehander is there already


so what you are missing is

 

Low Cost
Laser Dimensions
Moth sized rig

 

Now having turboed a Laser II - which is kinda Laser sized, and having sailed it against 29ers and MPSes and Swift Solos, I can tell you that it is underpowered.    I would recommend ditching the Laser Dimensions.  A slight increase in hull length - if you can keep the weight down BELOW a  Laser is great

 

Secondly,  A Moth Sized Rig doesn't need traps.  Even the top Mothies are not flat hiking the way a trapper does and they are going much faster and hence generating more power from AWA.  If you are going to go with Traps,you need a rig that has a bit more grunt in it, particularly at the low end.  you can go a bit smaller than say an MPS or Swift Solo but not a whole lot, Not if you want to be able to be 1/2 string at 8 knots and full string at 12.

 

 

Low cost of course is the big gotcha.  The more power you put in the boat, the more substantial the rig support structure needs to be which either adds weight or cost.

 

 

That said, I'd love a 3mm ply boat that can be laid out on 1-2 sheets of 3mm okume (like the NS12 above) that I can throw a stock rig into ( MPS?  Contender?  )  and go sailing.

.

 

.....yeh at 8meter rig,,,this class would be restricted to those light sailors in windy places.

...the ~9.7m of the HOOT is great---it's easier to depower a big modern sail than it is to add to something too small!

.....I know that small sailors have had a rough ride in the past,,

.............but now that modern carbon rigs with high purchase controls are open market,,,8m would be counting a lot of sailors out!!

 

A stock rig is a great idea. It's cheaper and less intensive of time & other resources to tinker with hull & foils than it is with rigs.

 

FB- Doug

 

.....I'd be happy to put the HOOT rig up for the open market on a cost-plus basis--I'd get the benefit of building quantity pricing--and so would y'all!

............it's proven qualities could be helpful

 

 

....... the idea of creating a box would be great--anything that helps various S'handers from various places get together and have fun...in this region,,the MPS's and swifts seem to have enjoyed this,but have become a seemingly exclusive group since.

........but overall,,the chance of actually putting something together on SA has shown a rather poor track-record! :mellow:



#142 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:16 PM

Ya know your iidea of doing a open Market for the Hoot rig is rather brilliant!



#143 couchsurfer

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:40 PM

Ya know your iidea of doing a open Market for the Hoot rig is rather brilliant!

.

 

...why,thank-you mr Bandit :)

 

...so far the mast's been proven to carry a 190lb sailor in 30knots-no issues,,,

,,,and carry a 150' chute in 12knots with the halyard block ~3 1/2' above the shrouds without inverting the mast!! :huh:

 

...and has a good sailplan to match.,already figured out optimum luffcurves for different weight sailors!

 .....certainly seems like a worthy platform to play with.).............. it would be a win/win  for everyone on the resourcefulness front ;)

 

 

...the only issue I potentially have is that I have enough stock for the current HOOT fleet,,plus a couple of new ones for initial production this winter.

...........there would need to be a  demand of ~3 outside orders to initiate a new production on sails or masts(~1/2 dozen at a time,minimum)



#144 couchsurfer

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:38 PM

.

 

..uh,oh........24 hours with no comment :huh:

 

.....2 more days and the thread-kill would be official! :mellow:

 

.



#145 Amati

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:50 PM

$$$??

#146 couchsurfer

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 03:41 PM

$$$??

 

..always a good question ;)

 

... I started looking into prices wayyy back,,but one needs to be persistent to squeeze such answers it seems,,I didn't follow through since I've got sufficient supplies for the moment.I know that Hansen put a lot of effort into developing that sail,,was probably a bit choked when the project was shelved,,,,let alone when we cut the cams out!

Now that winter's coming on ,I'll look into those details......it would be irresponsible to make guesses,,,but pricing can be quite surprising when you're talking bulk orders!....I'll get back when I know more :mellow:

 

 

 

.........it'll be quite the day when those laser foil sets,or similar, are priced more realistically,,and there's turn-key rigs available.........it'll make a full-circle on the home-build market!



#147 BalticBandit

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 04:40 PM

I'm so tempted to try and build one of those laser foil sets out of CF myself as a winter project here in Paris.



#148 Fishingmickey

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 04:49 PM

Attached File  ContenderX.jpg   39.31K   53 downloads

 

 

Attached File  ContenderX Upwind.jpg   32.4K   50 downloads



#149 couchsurfer

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 05:08 PM

attachicon.gifContenderX.jpg

 

 

attachicon.gifContenderX Upwind.jpg

.

 

..holy flashback,batman--that looks soo close to what I'm running,,right to the chute-color :blink:

 

..what size is the mainsail?



#150 Fishingmickey

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 05:16 PM

I don't know the specs of the boat, Couch. This thread had me thinking of that boat. It's one of those I wish it was mine.

FM



#151 couchsurfer

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:48 PM

.

 

...a turbo'd contender,,,noice!.

 

.

I don't know the specs of the boat, Couch. This thread had me thinking of that boat. It's one of those I wish it was mine.

FM



#152 facthunt

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:50 PM

I think the starting question for this thread was what sort of boat would you like for yourself?.

 

.... .... ....

 

Zackly. There were a few people who liked my concepts but more who wanted something faster. Which is fine, although I invite anyone who thinks you need high speed and T-foils and traps to come for a sail in our creek when the sea breeze is in... my bet is that you will find plenty of engagement for your skills in a boat like a Laser, my Cyclone, or even the lowly AMF Puffer (which my wife has recently declared is her favorite).

 

A stock rig is a great idea. It's cheaper and less intensive of time & other resources to tinker with hull & foils than it is with rigs.

 

FB- Doug

Sabre?



#153 Phil S

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:02 AM

attachicon.gifContenderX.jpg

 

 

attachicon.gifContenderX Upwind.jpg

I have some video taken originally on super6 film of the prototype Contender sailing in Sydney with a rig very like that, no extra of course. I've tried to extract some shots but do not have the skills.



#154 IC Nutter

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:21 PM

For anyone still interested in the narrow trapeze boat, I've been playing with the hull shape a bit more and had a look at the ergonomics. I have narrowed the cockpit so that the leeward cockpit edge can be used as the footrest. See attached images:

 

Attached File  42-Ergonomics1.png   146.19K   5 downloads

 

Attached File  42-Ergonomics2.png   108.66K   5 downloads

 

Attached File  42-Ergonomics3.png   120.53K   5 downloads



#155 IC Nutter

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:00 PM

More images for the narrow trap boat below. I went back to the double chine hull, it's just better for fully developable panels:

 

Attached File  NarrowTrapBoat-HullUnderside.png   307.95K   23 downloads

Hull underside.

 

Attached File  NarrowTrapBoat-Structure.png   388.44K   22 downloads

Hull structure - 3mm frames and bulkheads.



#156 Dex Sawash

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 07:09 PM

Bump.
Things are slow in DA.
This thread tapered off without anyone making any sawdust. Updates?

#157 Steam Flyer

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:50 AM

Bump.
Things are slow in DA.
This thread tapered off without anyone making any sawdust. Updates?

 

well ICN's hull above looks alot like Dan Holman's Punk, which is now being produced as the D-Zero. Get one, throw a bigger main on, + trap, GO !!!

 

On my design, I have kind of stalled while working on the usual dozen other projects around the house, plus my volunteer programs are currently in high gear. Once it's silly season again, will pick it back up and maybe knock out a model hull to see it in the flesh. The design cycle went around with some of the input from this thread and settled at longer & narrower, with hiking flares but not the corners, higher prismatic, 13" rise from cockpit floor to tank seat to save the knees & hips. I still like the idea of putting on a stock rig

 

FB- Doug



#158 Dex Sawash

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:24 AM

Re: stock rig...

I'm been doing some yard work and shuffling the fleet around.
There is a Snipe I was given that I have never used.
No Snipe fleet anywhere around. Snipe hull seems a waste of an OK rig.
I have a single handed racer and a double handed racer already.

Thinking about a light simple box blast reacher to mount the Snipe rig on with an added trap. Could drop the boom some and use a bigger main.

Or maybe try to cut some weight out of the Snipe hull ala US-1, but it may just have too much rocker. I suppose I should put the trap on and try it in heavy air and flat water to see if the hull shape is just too sticky to bother with.

Maybe that needs a new thread though.

#159 nacraoverlord

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 06:05 AM

I'd look into building a bot like this-

   say 14 ft LOA

   4 ft beam + 2 feet of wings + trapeze

   130 sq ft sail (I have an old snapped FD carbon mast I might sleeve a carbon tip onto and get a sail built for)

   125 lbs all up weight would be awesome, 150 more realistic

   Plywood hull



#160 Steam Flyer

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 01:11 AM

Re: stock rig...

I'm been doing some yard work and shuffling the fleet around.
There is a Snipe I was given that I have never used.
No Snipe fleet anywhere around. Snipe hull seems a waste of an OK rig.
I have a single handed racer and a double handed racer already.

Thinking about a light simple box blast reacher to mount the Snipe rig on with an added trap. Could drop the boom some and use a bigger main.

Or maybe try to cut some weight out of the Snipe hull ala US-1, but it may just have too much rocker. I suppose I should put the trap on and try it in heavy air and flat water to see if the hull shape is just too sticky to bother with.

Maybe that needs a new thread though.

 

New thread or keep this one going, you pick

 

Snipes do OK in light air, there would be worse places to start out. Need to keep the rolled side decks for hiking though. Maybe flares/wings?

 

FB- Doug



#161 Tom Ray

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:09 AM

Found on Woodenboat's Facebook feed today:

 

10483130_10154393711915603_6253550669537

 

Caption:


 

Early May, 2014: Almost done sanding.
My Merlin Rocket was designed by Ian Holt and built by Ron Hall. The design is called a Niane. She is based on the popular Canterbury Tales design, also by Holt. But the Niane shape has more rocker fore and after and less wetted surface area so she can cope with a heavier two-man crew. The Merlin Rocket class is a box rule design. There are a set of parameters to the rules constrained by a basic aesthetically governed box rule. Over the years there have been many designs but you could tell any of them as being a Merlin Rocket class design. Not a one design, it's a development class.


Next year (2015) is the class's 70th anniversary and there is a book being published to commemorate the design.

 

 

Looks pretty similar to Swamp Thing in a lot of ways.






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