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What's that mean? What's that mean? What's that mean?


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#1 J109Guy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:28 AM

Wow, what a lovely night to be out Boston Harbor on a sailboat, doing something I love (racing) with a group of people (my crew) that I love! But I was so very, very sad to discover that one of the boats we race against either a) does not speak English as their native language or 2) are not familiar with the Racing Rules of Sailing, because when I hailed them and said in a calm, clear voice, "Leeward, please head up", they turn back looked at me, and shouted over and over "What's that mean? What's that mean?? What's that mean???"

 

Well, I've dropped out of five colleges and as an American barely have a grasp on the English language to start with, so if the issue involves translation from English to their native language, I can't offer any help. Good news is that I am pretty sure they have a crew member who is actually FROM England, so I bet she can assist. But, if the issue is a lack of understanding of the Racing Rules of Sailing and how they apply, I’m pretty sure I can lend a hand.

 

So, when it comes to the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS for short) even though the book is very long, the basic concept is quite simple; don't hit another boat! And unless you are about to pass a mark, the rules are pretty simple. A port tack boat has to keep clear of a starboard tack boat; a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward boat; and a boat changing tack pretty much needs to keep clear of everyone! There is a section of the Rulebook called "When Boats Meet" that covers this, and Section A covers what is called “Right of Way”.

 

Tonight, when your boat was clear ahead of me, but I was going faster than you and caught up, at the moment when my bow passed your stern on the leeward side of your boat, I had to initially give you room to keep clear. This is Rule 15, and it is called "Acquiring Right of Way". It would not be very sporting of me (and expensive to boot) if as soon as I acquired the "Right of Way" that I could hit you and have the foul be on you.

 

So, even though the rules do not require it, when I became overlapped to leeward of you tonight, my bowgirl (hey, KK!) hailed "overlapped" to you, and a few seconds later as I started to change my course to head up I hailed "leeward, please head up" to you. Didn't scream it (ask my crew, I am NOT a screamer) just said it in a clear calm voice from about 10.9 meters away from you. The rulebook doesn't say I have to do this, but each of our boats is worth several hundreds of thousands of dollars, so it seemed a good thing to do.

 

And here is the thing; because the race had not yet started (we were 38 seconds away from the start signal) as the starboard, leeward boat I am allowed to head up all the way to closed hauled, and even beyond, until I am pointed directly into wind. And as I do this, you need to "keep clear" of me. Of course, as soon as the race starts I am constrained and must then sail my proper course (wow, that would take much longer to explain, perhaps another time), because I had established my overlap from clear astern within two of my hull lengths (this is Rule 17), but we were not there yet.

 

So perhaps you were yelling "What's that mean?" because you are not familiar with the concept of keeping clear. Well, in the RRS they actually define that term, albeit in English, which may not be your strongest language. It means that the right of way boat (that would be me) gets to sail my course without taking avoiding action, AND that I should be able to change my course without immediately making contact with the keep clear boat (that would be you).

 

At that moment, I could do neither.

 

So, when you kinda freaked out and put your helm over hard, I needed to turn away from you to keep YOU from hitting ME. That has a lot to do with the way a sailboat actually works. See, when you turn the wheel to go one way or the other, the boat actually pivots around what they call the "beam” of the boat. That is the wide part in the middle, near the mast.  And while the pointy end (it's called the bow) may turn away from the other boat (again, me), the end where you were standing (it's the wide section near the wheel and is called the stern) turns TOWARDS me. Crazy, isn't it?? So perhaps when you were shouting over and over again "What's it mean" it was the whole physics of the thing that was flummoxing you.

 

Now, as clear as all this is, believe it or not it was actually more complicated, because while I was the leeward, right of way boat to you, there was another boat approaching me who was about to become the leeward right of way boat in relation to me! Yes, there are other boats out on the race course besides the two of us; hard to believe, I know! Very soon I was going to need to take avoiding action to keep clear of them. Of course, because I wasn't looking at some other boat shouting "What's that mean?" over and over again, I had seen this coming and anticipated this, hence the reason I had asked nicely for YOU to head up.

 

Now, if I was a complete idiot I suppose what I would have done was use a rule (it is 60.1 in the RRS) to "Protest" you. I could have hailed "Protest" and pulled that little tab on the green pouch lashed to my backstay that has a red flag tucked into it. But while I am a bit of an idiot (ask any of my ex-girlfriends, they will tell you) I am not a TOTAL idiot. The more time I spend concentrating on you and NOT on racing my own boat, the more likely I am to lose the race to some OTHER boat, and I really hate losing races. And while I am sure you would feel a serious ego boost if I spent all that time on the water watching and focusing on you, my real focus is on going fast and winning. So I didn't pull that flag. Instead, what I did was bide my time, waiting for the right opportunity when I could find a lane, pass you, put the hammer down (figuratively, not literally) and win the race.

 

Which is what I did.

 

So, while I may never be able to truly help you understand "What's that mean?" I will offer you some unsolicited advice (oh goody, you say). Instead of looking backwards, yelling at a right of way boat behind you over and over and over again, look forwards, up the course, for that extra puff of wind, that little lift, the 20 degree wind shift that tells you to use the runner and not the reacher on that leg where we passed you to win the race, and I bet you will one day find out exactly "What That Means".

 

On my boat, it means victory!! See you next Wednesday…

 

Christopher Zibailo

Owner, S/V Superstition

 



#2 casc27

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:31 AM

Wow that's about the worst case of VD (verbal diarrhea) I've ever seen about such a minor event. 



#3 facthunt

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:47 AM

post 666 the antichrist speaks in tongues.



#4 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:59 AM

fuck what a waste of typing ?

 

leeward pleae ????????????????????

 

 

ummmm, whats that mean ?



#5 RustySkiff

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:18 AM

Time and opportunity

If you yell for them to head up and their transom hit you in the process you didn't give them enough room or time and opportunity.

Start at the pin, you'll get hit less.



#6 jarcher

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:13 AM

I did pretty well, I got through nearly 1/3 of that before I scrolled down...



#7 facthunt

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:31 AM

So, when you kinda freaked out and put your helm over hard, I needed to turn away from you to keep YOU from hitting ME. That has a lot to do with the way a sailboat actually works.

 

On my boat, it means victory!! See you next Wednesday…

 

Christopher Zibailo

Owner, S/V Superstition

 

you haven't given them room to keep clear if they can hit you in response to your call, you would score a dsq if you took this to protest.

see you next Tuesday.



#8 Gypsyclubjuggler

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:04 AM

you haven't given them room to keep clear if they can hit you in response to your call

How do you figure that?  Just because hitting you is an option doesn't mean that they don't have room to keep clear.  To give room to keep clear you need to give enough room to make it possible for them not to hit you, not enough room to make it impossible for the other boat to hit you.



#9 X24R

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:09 AM

I did pretty well, I got through nearly 1/3 of that before I scrolled down...

i couldn't do but about half myself



#10 facthunt

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:45 AM


 


you haven't given them room to keep clear if they can hit you in response to your call

How do you figure that?  Just because hitting you is an option doesn't mean that they don't have room to keep clear.  To give room to keep clear you need to give enough room to make it possible for them not to hit you, not enough room to make it impossible for the other boat to hit you.

no you need to give them room to respond, and if there is contact in the process you will be hung out to dry.
you need to give enough room that it is not possible for them to hit you when their transom comes at you, because in a protest you will need to show you gave adequate room which will be a hard call considering the contact.

#11 Steam Flyer

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:19 PM


 

 


you haven't given them room to keep clear if they can hit you in response to your call

How do you figure that?  Just because hitting you is an option doesn't mean that they don't have room to keep clear.  To give room to keep clear you need to give enough room to make it possible for them not to hit you, not enough room to make it impossible for the other boat to hit you.

no you need to give them room to respond, and if there is contact in the process you will be hung out to dry.
you need to give enough room that it is not possible for them to hit you when their transom comes at you, because in a protest you will need to show you gave adequate room which will be a hard call considering the contact.

 

Show us where it says this in the rules, please.

 

FB- Doug



#12 burndoc

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:35 PM

A port tack boat has to keep clear of a starboard tack boat; a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward boat; and a boat changing tack pretty much needs to keep clear of everyone!

 

at the moment when my bow passed your stern on the leeward side of your boat

 

 

 

So you type a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward, then overlap leeward and demand right of way.No wonder everyone is confused.



#13 Sgt Hulka

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:44 PM

I would have hit them.

 

Out of principle.



#14 Cock Zest

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:54 PM

Nothing like some post race passive aggressiveness for all of the interwebs to read... 

 

Well done, sir! Now go have some beers with the offender and HTFU!



#15 gideon

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:09 PM

Mr Z violated Rule 17 - he should have held his proper course.



#16 NutCase27

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:13 PM

Are you on drugs?  Leeward boat has ROW on same tack

A port tack boat has to keep clear of a starboard tack boat; a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward boat; and a boat changing tack pretty much needs to keep clear of everyone!

 

at the moment when my bow passed your stern on the leeward side of your boat

 

 

 

So you type a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward, then overlap leeward and demand right of way.No wonder everyone is confused.



#17 Jake DiMare

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:15 PM

Mr Z violated Rule 17 - he should have held his proper course.

 

From the definitions section of the racing rules:

 

"Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in 
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat 
has no proper course before her starting signal." - PAge 9 Racing Rules of Sailing 2013-2016

This occurred before the starting signal. Think about it...Nobody would be able to hook before the start if what you are suggesting is correct. 


#18 Migelikor

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:18 PM

Mr Z violated Rule 17 - he should have held his proper course.

Check in on proper course before the start.  That constraint on the Leeward boat is meaningless till the gun goes off.



#19 Catalina30

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:18 PM

A port tack boat has to keep clear of a starboard tack boat; a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward boat; and a boat changing tack pretty much needs to keep clear of everyone!

 

at the moment when my bow passed your stern on the leeward side of your boat

 

 

 

So you type a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward, then overlap leeward and demand right of way.No wonder everyone is confused.

 

I was going to post the same, good catch.  That made me chuckle after the complaining about the other boat being confused.  Proof read a good rant please... wait don't. ;)



#20 Brass

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:19 PM

 


 

 


you haven't given them room to keep clear if they can hit you in response to your call

How do you figure that?  Just because hitting you is an option doesn't mean that they don't have room to keep clear.  To give room to keep clear you need to give enough room to make it possible for them not to hit you, not enough room to make it impossible for the other boat to hit you.

no you need to give them room to respond, and if there is contact in the process you will be hung out to dry.
you need to give enough room that it is not possible for them to hit you when their transom comes at you, because in a protest you will need to show you gave adequate room which will be a hard call considering the contact.

 

Show us where it says this in the rules, please.

 

FB- Doug

He's going to have some difficulty.

 

Case 24 makes it clear that a windward boat, taking action to keep clear can take more room than is necessary.  MR Calls B3 and B5 also show examples.

 

I thought Gypsyclub put it quite nicely.

 

CASE 24

Definition, Room

Rule 11, On the Same Tack, Overlapped

Rule 12, On the Same Tack, Not Overlapped

Rule 15, Acquiring Right of Way

When a boat becomes overlapped to leeward from clear astern, the other boat must act promptly to keep clear.

When she cannot do so in a seamanlike way, she has not been given room as required by rule 15. If she takes

unnecessary action that causes contact, she fails to keep clear as required by rule 11.



#21 flatearth

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:20 PM

What was your lateral separation(gap) when the boats became overlapped?

What was the time the boats overlapped before the windward boat began to alter course?

How far did your bow overlap the windward boat and what was the gap?


So, even though the rules do not require it, when I became overlapped to leeward of you tonight, my bowgirl (hey, KK!) hailed "overlapped" to you, and a few seconds later as I started to change my course to head up I hailed "leeward, please head up" to you. Didn't scream it (ask my crew, I am NOT a screamer) just said it in a clear calm voice from about 10.9 meters away from you. The rulebook doesn't say I have to do this, but each of our boats is worth several hundreds of thousands of dollars, so it seemed a good thing to do.

#22 Captain Jack Sparrow

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:22 PM

What about rule 17...does that not matter because the race hasn't started? A boat establishing an overlap from clear astern within two boat lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack may not sail sail above her proper course while they remain overlapped and on the same tack.

I'd imagine that if the starting gun was soon to go off your proper course would be the start line, not luffing. You'd be be protested for going above closehauled and for not giving them room to keep clear.

#23 Cock Zest

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:22 PM

One Design much? http://www.yachtscor...ive.cfm?eID=633



#24 Cock Zest

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:24 PM

For the link lazy...

 

 

 

Class 6 - J/109     1.   USA 146 Storm J 109 Rick Lyall 1 8 1 2 1 2 6 1 1   23.0     2.   USA 51 Rush J 109 Bill Sweetser 5 1 4 1 11 3 1 2 2   30.0     3.   USA 72 Gut Feeling J 109 Ted Herlihy 3 4 2 6 8 1 3 3 4   34.0     4.   USA 369 Skoot J 109 Jim Vos 4 2 3 4 3 12 5 4 8   45.0     5.   USA 52202 Caminos J 109 Donald Filippelli 6 3 6 3 2 10 7 8 5   50.0     6.   USA 93272 Reliant J 109 Matthew Baker 2 5 10 7 10 7 8 10 14   73.0     7.   USA 126 Picante J 109 Robert Salk / John Sahagian 11 10 5 11 15 9 2 11 3   77.0     8.   USA 144 Heat Wave J 109 Gary Weisberg 13 9 13 5 4 5 4 12 12   77.0     9.   USA 148 Blue Sky J 109 John Pearson 10 13 7 13 9 6 13 7 6   84.0     10.   USA 273 Strategery J 109 Jack Forehand 9 16 15 10 6 4 11 5 11   87.0     11.   USA 267 Nordlys J 109 Bob Schwartz 8 7 9 12 7 15 14 6 9   87.0     12.   USA 360 Big Boat J 109 William Rogers 7 11 12 9 5 13 12 9 13   91.0     13.   USA 266 Vento Solare J 109 Paul Milo 15 12 8 8 13 8 10 15 10   99.0     14.   USA 171 Superstition J 109 Christopher Zibailo 16 6 11 15 12 11 9 13 7   100.0     15.   USA 272 WildThing J 109 Dan / Mitch Boyd / Wiest 12 14 16 16 14 16 15 14 15   132.0     16.   USA 140 Troublemaker J 109 Eric Gordon 14 15 14 14 16 14 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC   141.0     17.   USA 52418 Joyride J 109 Greg Imbruce 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC   162.0


#25 Elixir

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:45 PM

Reads like a breech of Rule 15 by Supersition.  I assume you chatted with them about the situation over a beer at the Sail Loft afterwards?  It would only make sense to get everyone in the fleet to understand the rules for beer can racing.

 

Who was the windward boat?  I'll sail with them next Wednesday if they're looking for people that are comfortable with the rules.  PM me.



#26 Migelikor

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:51 PM

What about rule 17...does that not matter because the race hasn't started? A boat establishing an overlap from clear astern within two boat lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack may not sail sail above her proper course while they remain overlapped and on the same tack.

I'd imagine that if the starting gun was soon to go off your proper course would be the start line, not luffing. You'd be be protested for going above closehauled and for not giving them room to keep clear.

You imagine wrong, actually.  Proper course includes head-to-wind prior to the start.



#27 Migelikor

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:01 PM

Here's a nice write-up from Bill Gladstone to help the rule-challenged to understand why they aren't allowed to arrive early,  bear off, and have their dream-start.: http://www.sailjax.c...t-The-Start.pdf



#28 Presuming Ed

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:07 PM

Rules stuff

 

Posting rules stuff on SA? Big mistake. Big. HUGE.



#29 Rabid Yak

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:12 PM

Right "Cock Zest". One design NOT MUCH.

CYC Wednesday nights are a gimmie for a J109 in usually pursuit style race courses. Surprised he felt the need for a public tantrum.

Or maybe not surprised....



#30 ssi

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:18 PM

Can't make a conclusion unless we know if the mast was abeam of the other boat, Mr. Spithill.



#31 nolatom

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:22 PM

Was there a *double rainbow*??



#32 Vee

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:23 PM

......and one wonders why yacht racing is on a downward spiral.  

 

What an immense fucking waste of time. 



#33 Glenn McCarthy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:31 PM

What this really means is that there is no space on a race course for less experienced boats, new racers, or those who are never going to become "expert" as this winner is.  They are not going to invest the time or energy to learn the rules but still want the exercise and camaraderie of going around a race course with their friends.  Which they just learned is their final race, because some others are only interested in winning at all costs, including offending these less experienced sailors making sure that they don't ever want to come back ever again.  Don't worry pal, they won't be in your way next week.  You've taught them.



#34 darkstar32170

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:32 PM

As a race committee chairman I've been finding that the knowledge of the rules of our sailors is severely lacking. It's not just our very casual racers, but some of our more experienced skippers who have let their knowledge of the rules fade from their minds. Over the winter I'm making sure that our club runs a couple rules seminars to refresh everyone's knowledge. It actually should create better racing where everyone can properly use the rules tactically and have fun without causing the fleet to freak out.



#35 J109Guy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:33 PM

A port tack boat has to keep clear of a starboard tack boat; a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward boat; and a boat changing tack pretty much needs to keep clear of everyone!

 

at the moment when my bow passed your stern on the leeward side of your boat

 

 

 

So you type a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward, then overlap leeward and demand right of way.No wonder everyone is confused.

ARGH!!!! I hate it when I only proofread twice! Obviously I was a bit sydlexic in typing that sentence, but to in my defense, I am a college dropout.

 

Of course, it should have read "windward keeps clear of leeward", but you kids already knew that.



#36 burndoc

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:33 PM

Are you on drugs?  Leeward boat has ROW on same tack

A port tack boat has to keep clear of a starboard tack boat; a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward boat; and a boat changing tack pretty much needs to keep clear of everyone!

 

at the moment when my bow passed your stern on the leeward side of your boat

 

 

 

So you type a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward, then overlap leeward and demand right of way.No wonder everyone is confused.

 He wrote it not me.



#37 J109Guy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:37 PM

What this really means is that there is no space on a race course for less experienced boats, new racers, or those who are never going to become "expert" as this winner is.  They are not going to invest the time or energy to learn the rules but still want the exercise and camaraderie of going around a race course with their friends.  Which they just learned is their final race, because some others are only interested in winning at all costs, including offending these less experienced sailors making sure that they don't ever want to come back ever again.  Don't worry pal, they won't be in your way next week.  You've taught them.

No, it means that even though we try really hard to stay away from this particular experienced boat (one of three on our "staythefuckaway" list) we do get tangled up with them from time to time, and odd stuff like one of their owners yelling "What's that mean?" at us over and over occurs. And while I very rarely feel the need to rant (especially over something as trivial as this in the grand scheme of life) in this particular case I did. So I did! And what better place to rant then SA???



#38 J109Guy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:46 PM

For the link lazy...

 

 

 

Class 6 - J/109     1.   USA 146 Storm J 109 Rick Lyall 1 8 1 2 1 2 6 1 1   23.0     2.   USA 51 Rush J 109 Bill Sweetser 5 1 4 1 11 3 1 2 2   30.0     3.   USA 72 Gut Feeling J 109 Ted Herlihy 3 4 2 6 8 1 3 3 4   34.0     4.   USA 369 Skoot J 109 Jim Vos 4 2 3 4 3 12 5 4 8   45.0     5.   USA 52202 Caminos J 109 Donald Filippelli 6 3 6 3 2 10 7 8 5   50.0     6.   USA 93272 Reliant J 109 Matthew Baker 2 5 10 7 10 7 8 10 14   73.0     7.   USA 126 Picante J 109 Robert Salk / John Sahagian 11 10 5 11 15 9 2 11 3   77.0     8.   USA 144 Heat Wave J 109 Gary Weisberg 13 9 13 5 4 5 4 12 12   77.0     9.   USA 148 Blue Sky J 109 John Pearson 10 13 7 13 9 6 13 7 6   84.0     10.   USA 273 Strategery J 109 Jack Forehand 9 16 15 10 6 4 11 5 11   87.0     11.   USA 267 Nordlys J 109 Bob Schwartz 8 7 9 12 7 15 14 6 9   87.0     12.   USA 360 Big Boat J 109 William Rogers 7 11 12 9 5 13 12 9 13   91.0     13.   USA 266 Vento Solare J 109 Paul Milo 15 12 8 8 13 8 10 15 10   99.0     14.   USA 171 Superstition J 109 Christopher Zibailo 16 6 11 15 12 11 9 13 7   100.0     15.   USA 272 WildThing J 109 Dan / Mitch Boyd / Wiest 12 14 16 16 14 16 15 14 15   132.0     16.   USA 140 Troublemaker J 109 Eric Gordon 14 15 14 14 16 14 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC   141.0     17.   USA 52418 Joyride J 109 Greg Imbruce 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC   162.0

Oh yes, we get severely spanked when we sail one-design in Newport. Most of the racing we do up in Mass Bay is in much lighter breeze, so we are using PHRF sails and not the class sails. And as we are all amateur, Group 1 competitors and have very little Newport local knowledge we have been at the bottom of the fleet the four times we have raced in the NAs over the last 10 years. Plus, I tend to do a really crappy job driving in the lumpy conditions and bigger breeze, because I don't see much of that up here and I came to racing later in life.

 

So, for 2014 we are going to try to get two or three weekends that we can get the boat down to Newport and compete is some local events. Plus, we are going to use our one-design sails for most of the Weds night races in Boston, so we can get better at making the boat go faster when we race OD configuration. I'd also really like to pull someone in to race with us that can help with the local knowledge aspect in Newport, but that may be asking too much. At any rate, our goal is to make it to the top half of the fleet for the 2014 J/109 North Americans.



#39 mad

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:32 PM

Wow, what a lovely night to be out Boston Harbor on a sailboat, doing something I love (racing) with a group of people (my crew) that I love! But I was so very, very sad to discover that one of the boats we race against either a) does not speak English as their native language or 2) are not familiar with the Racing Rules of Sailing, because when I hailed them and said in a calm, clear voice, "Leeward, please head up", they turn back looked at me, and shouted over and over "What's that mean? What's that mean?? What's that mean???"
 
Well, I've dropped out of five colleges and as an American barely have a grasp on the English language to start with, so if the issue involves translation from English to their native language, I can't offer any help. Good news is that I am pretty sure they have a crew member who is actually FROM England, so I bet she can assist. But, if the issue is a lack of understanding of the Racing Rules of Sailing and how they apply, Im pretty sure I can lend a hand.
 
So, when it comes to the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS for short) even though the book is very long, the basic concept is quite simple; don't hit another boat! And unless you are about to pass a mark, the rules are pretty simple. A port tack boat has to keep clear of a starboard tack boat; a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward boat; and a boat changing tack pretty much needs to keep clear of everyone! There is a section of the Rulebook called "When Boats Meet" that covers this, and Section A covers what is called Right of Way.
 
Tonight, when your boat was clear ahead of me, but I was going faster than you and caught up, at the moment when my bow passed your stern on the leeward side of your boat, I had to initially give you room to keep clear. This is Rule 15, and it is called "Acquiring Right of Way". It would not be very sporting of me (and expensive to boot) if as soon as I acquired the "Right of Way" that I could hit you and have the foul be on you.
 
So, even though the rules do not require it, when I became overlapped to leeward of you tonight, my bowgirl (hey, KK!) hailed "overlapped" to you, and a few seconds later as I started to change my course to head up I hailed "leeward, please head up" to you. Didn't scream it (ask my crew, I am NOT a screamer) just said it in a clear calm voice from about 10.9 meters away from you. The rulebook doesn't say I have to do this, but each of our boats is worth several hundreds of thousands of dollars, so it seemed a good thing to do.
 
And here is the thing; because the race had not yet started (we were 38 seconds away from the start signal) as the starboard, leeward boat I am allowed to head up all the way to closed hauled, and even beyond, until I am pointed directly into wind. And as I do this, you need to "keep clear" of me. Of course, as soon as the race starts I am constrained and must then sail my proper course (wow, that would take much longer to explain, perhaps another time), because I had established my overlap from clear astern within two of my hull lengths (this is Rule 17), but we were not there yet.
 
So perhaps you were yelling "What's that mean?" because you are not familiar with the concept of keeping clear. Well, in the RRS they actually define that term, albeit in English, which may not be your strongest language. It means that the right of way boat (that would be me) gets to sail my course without taking avoiding action, AND that I should be able to change my course without immediately making contact with the keep clear boat (that would be you).
 
At that moment, I could do neither.
 
So, when you kinda freaked out and put your helm over hard, I needed to turn away from you to keep YOU from hitting ME. That has a lot to do with the way a sailboat actually works. See, when you turn the wheel to go one way or the other, the boat actually pivots around what they call the "beam of the boat. That is the wide part in the middle, near the mast.  And while the pointy end (it's called the bow) may turn away from the other boat (again, me), the end where you were standing (it's the wide section near the wheel and is called the stern) turns TOWARDS me. Crazy, isn't it?? So perhaps when you were shouting over and over again "What's it mean" it was the whole physics of the thing that was flummoxing you.
 
Now, as clear as all this is, believe it or not it was actually more complicated, because while I was the leeward, right of way boat to you, there was another boat approaching me who was about to become the leeward right of way boat in relation to me! Yes, there are other boats out on the race course besides the two of us; hard to believe, I know! Very soon I was going to need to take avoiding action to keep clear of them. Of course, because I wasn't looking at some other boat shouting "What's that mean?" over and over again, I had seen this coming and anticipated this, hence the reason I had asked nicely for YOU to head up.
 
Now, if I was a complete idiot I suppose what I would have done was use a rule (it is 60.1 in the RRS) to "Protest" you. I could have hailed "Protest" and pulled that little tab on the green pouch lashed to my backstay that has a red flag tucked into it. But while I am a bit of an idiot (ask any of my ex-girlfriends, they will tell you) I am not a TOTAL idiot. The more time I spend concentrating on you and NOT on racing my own boat, the more likely I am to lose the race to some OTHER boat, and I really hate losing races. And while I am sure you would feel a serious ego boost if I spent all that time on the water watching and focusing on you, my real focus is on going fast and winning. So I didn't pull that flag. Instead, what I did was bide my time, waiting for the right opportunity when I could find a lane, pass you, put the hammer down (figuratively, not literally) and win the race.
 
Which is what I did.
 
So, while I may never be able to truly help you understand "What's that mean?" I will offer you some unsolicited advice (oh goody, you say). Instead of looking backwards, yelling at a right of way boat behind you over and over and over again, look forwards, up the course, for that extra puff of wind, that little lift, the 20 degree wind shift that tells you to use the runner and not the reacher on that leg where we passed you to win the race, and I bet you will one day find out exactly "What That Means".
 
On my boat, it means victory!! See you next Wednesday
 
Christopher Zibailo
Owner, S/V Superstition
 

Did Wofsey steal your login details?

#40 Steam Flyer

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:38 PM

Right "Cock Zest". One design NOT MUCH.

CYC Wednesday nights are a gimmie for a J109 in usually pursuit style race courses. Surprised he felt the need for a public tantrum.

Or maybe not surprised....

 

His J70 is on order

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you need to give enough room that it is not possible for them to hit you when their transom comes at you....

 

Show us where it says this in the rules, please.

 

 

He's going to have some difficulty.

 

Case 24 makes it clear that a windward boat, taking action to keep clear can take more room than is necessary.  MR Calls B3 and B5 also show examples.

 

I thought Gypsyclub put it quite nicely.

 

CASE 24

Definition, Room

Rule 11, On the Same Tack, Overlapped

Rule 12, On the Same Tack, Not Overlapped

Rule 15, Acquiring Right of Way

When a boat becomes overlapped to leeward from clear astern, the other boat must act promptly to keep clear.

When she cannot do so in a seamanlike way, she has not been given room as required by rule 15. If she takes

unnecessary action that causes contact, she fails to keep clear as required by rule 11.

 

Zackly

 

The key point is usually "how promptly did Windward take action" (notice it doesn't say "slam the helm over")

How much seperation between boats is important but can be affected by the angle between the boats courses (which many skippers seem to ignore for some reason).

 

One thing Astern-Leeward needs to take into account, the Ahead-Windward boat need take no action until after the overlap is established, and if they are going slow, sails luffing, etc etc, then they are probably making more leeway than usual.

 

If Ahead-Windward just slams the helm over and hits Astern-Leeward, that gets them a DSQ -if- it is likely they could have kept clear and avoided contact by putting the helm over somewhat less, or perhaps done something with those big white flappy things.

 

FB- Doug



#41 flatearth

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:04 PM

Honestly, you should have protested and then posted the decision if you are this angry and want to scream out to the internetz about your experience. Why? Your rant is only your side of the story; they have their side, and then we have the facts, conclusion and decision. You need to go and read the Basic Principle yourself, you also are expected to follow and enforce the rules. You didn't.

As for experience level, the sport only works if competitors follow the rules. When you enter a race you agree to be governed by the rules. Blaming others for not knowing the rules of the game you play, is not an excuse. Entering a race with little experience is adding risk to others.

And what's wrong with wanting to win? It is part of the reptilian brain function of survival. If you race, there should be some desire to win or try to win, if not then why race? Oh because you have fun. But isn't only thinking about your own fun both selfish and irresponsible to the assembly of which you are participating, if you are not following rules which govern it?

If you want to sail recreationally or cruise, you can join the largest segment of sailing and have your fun or if you want to exercise and build camaraderie then buy a SUP and paddle in a group or do a Tough Mudder event and overcome obstacles together.

Rants, being irresponsible, trying to write fun racing rules, writing about 'I know what's best in my pond', or using flawed data from insiders, will not fix or save sailing.

As long as sailboat racing remains the province of aging upper middle class white males and an Olympic sport, don't expect much change without widely organized disruption coming from a current silent majority.

What this really means is that there is no space on a race course for less experienced boats, new racers, or those who are never going to become "expert" as this winner is.  They are not going to invest the time or energy to learn the rules but still want the exercise and camaraderie of going around a race course with their friends.  Which they just learned is their final race, because some others are only interested in winning at all costs, including offending these less experienced sailors making sure that they don't ever want to come back ever again.  Don't worry pal, they won't be in your way next week.  You've taught them.

No, it means that even though we try really hard to stay away from this particular experienced boat (one of three on our "staythefuckaway" list) we do get tangled up with them from time to time, and odd stuff like one of their owners yelling "What's that mean?" at us over and over occurs. And while I very rarely feel the need to rant (especially over something as trivial as this in the grand scheme of life) in this particular case I did. So I did! And what better place to rant then SA???


#42 flatearth

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:08 PM

OP said he hail from 10.9m away. There is no indication on the boats position except that the helmsman hailing, was astern of the other boat.


The unanswered questions again to OP.


What was your lateral separation(gap) when the boats became overlapped?

What was the time the boats were overlapped before the windward boat began to alter course?

How far did your bow overlap the windward boat and what was the gap?



Brass,
the problem is the "promptly" in that case. If Super gave nearly 11 meters (not feet) (interesting number to choose, btw, z - 10.9 m.. or 109 cm.. or..) of room at the start of the overlap, and the boat in question didn't "promptly" maneuver to stay clear, it'd be hard to say that Super didn't meet their obligation.



#43 Raked aft \\

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:20 PM

What this really means is that there is no space on a race course for less experienced boats, new racers, or those who are never going to become "expert" as this winner is.  They are not going to invest the time or energy to learn the rules but still want the exercise and camaraderie of going around a race course with their friends.  Which they just learned is their final race, because some others are only interested in winning at all costs, including offending these less experienced sailors making sure that they don't ever want to come back ever again.  Don't worry pal, they won't be in your way next week.  You've taught them.

No, it means that even though we try really hard to stay away from this particular experienced boat (one of three on our "staythefuckaway" list) we do get tangled up with them from time to time, and odd stuff like one of their owners yelling "What's that mean?" at us over and over occurs. And while I very rarely feel the need to rant (especially over something as trivial as this in the grand scheme of life) in this particular case I did. So I did! And what better place to rant then SA???

 

  Did you ever stop to think maybe you're number 1 on their list?  Hence the repeated 'what's that mean'...

 

  beautiful strategy on their part really.



#44 Couch Bike Dude

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:20 PM

A port tack boat has to keep clear of a starboard tack boat; a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward boat; and a boat changing tack pretty much needs to keep clear of everyone!

 

at the moment when my bow passed your stern on the leeward side of your boat

 

 

 

So you type a leeward boat has to keep clear of a windward, then overlap leeward and demand right of way.No wonder everyone is confused.

ARGH!!!! I hate it when I only proofread twice! Obviously I was a bit sydlexic in typing that sentence, but to in my defense, I am a college dropout.

 

Of course, it should have read "windward keeps clear of leeward", but you kids already knew that.

Obviously what the other guy heard was more like what you wrote than what you meant!

Probably why he was asking, "What does that mean?"



#45 Rabid Yak

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:34 PM

Me thinks Superstition just made a few "staythefuckaway" lists.



#46 Not Who You Think

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:43 PM

Lorax said:  To those who don't know how we run Boston Wednesday nights: We are very welcoming and accommodating to newbies. We like to help them learn, have polite rules discussions, and help them get better (except for you, Ryley, you don't need our help).

 

 

 

And then Chris shits all over them in a public forum in such a way that anyone who is familiar with the Boston Wednesday Night scene knows exactly who he was talking about, whether they were on the line last night or not.  Put yourselves in the other person's shoes...would YOU want to be publicly humiliated like that, even if you did egregiously foul another boat ?  In the end...ie after the incident, after the post-race Dark and Stormies and wine bar, but certainly before this rant was posted...nobody got hurt, there was no damage and it was a f'ing Wednesday night beer can race.  

 

Here's the saddest part about this entire episode:  http://www.massbaysa...out_us/officers



#47 Rabid Yak

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:08 PM

Lorax said:  To those who don't know how we run Boston Wednesday nights: We are very welcoming and accommodating to newbies. We like to help them learn, have polite rules discussions, and help them get better (except for you, Ryley, you don't need our help).

 

 

 

And then Chris shits all over them in a public forum in such a way that anyone who is familiar with the Boston Wednesday Night scene knows exactly who he was talking about, whether they were on the line last night or not.  Put yourselves in the other person's shoes...would YOU want to be publicly humiliated like that, even if you did egregiously foul another boat ?  In the end...ie after the incident, after the post-race Dark and Stormies and wine bar, but certainly before this rant was posted...nobody got hurt, there was no damage and it was a f'ing Wednesday night beer can race.  

 

Here's the saddest part about this entire episode:  http://www.massbaysa...out_us/officers

 

The Peter Principle



#48 Mambo Kings

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:10 PM

 

For the link lazy...

 

 

 

Class 6 - J/109     1.   USA 146 Storm J 109 Rick Lyall 1 8 1 2 1 2 6 1 1   23.0     2.   USA 51 Rush J 109 Bill Sweetser 5 1 4 1 11 3 1 2 2   30.0     3.   USA 72 Gut Feeling J 109 Ted Herlihy 3 4 2 6 8 1 3 3 4   34.0     4.   USA 369 Skoot J 109 Jim Vos 4 2 3 4 3 12 5 4 8   45.0     5.   USA 52202 Caminos J 109 Donald Filippelli 6 3 6 3 2 10 7 8 5   50.0     6.   USA 93272 Reliant J 109 Matthew Baker 2 5 10 7 10 7 8 10 14   73.0     7.   USA 126 Picante J 109 Robert Salk / John Sahagian 11 10 5 11 15 9 2 11 3   77.0     8.   USA 144 Heat Wave J 109 Gary Weisberg 13 9 13 5 4 5 4 12 12   77.0     9.   USA 148 Blue Sky J 109 John Pearson 10 13 7 13 9 6 13 7 6   84.0     10.   USA 273 Strategery J 109 Jack Forehand 9 16 15 10 6 4 11 5 11   87.0     11.   USA 267 Nordlys J 109 Bob Schwartz 8 7 9 12 7 15 14 6 9   87.0     12.   USA 360 Big Boat J 109 William Rogers 7 11 12 9 5 13 12 9 13   91.0     13.   USA 266 Vento Solare J 109 Paul Milo 15 12 8 8 13 8 10 15 10   99.0     14.   USA 171 Superstition J 109 Christopher Zibailo 16 6 11 15 12 11 9 13 7   100.0     15.   USA 272 WildThing J 109 Dan / Mitch Boyd / Wiest 12 14 16 16 14 16 15 14 15   132.0     16.   USA 140 Troublemaker J 109 Eric Gordon 14 15 14 14 16 14 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC   141.0     17.   USA 52418 Joyride J 109 Greg Imbruce 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC   162.0

Oh yes, we get severely spanked when we sail one-design in Newport. Most of the racing we do up in Mass Bay is in much lighter breeze, so we are using PHRF sails and not the class sails. And as we are all amateur, Group 1 competitors and have very little Newport local knowledge we have been at the bottom of the fleet the four times we have raced in the NAs over the last 10 years. Plus, I tend to do a really crappy job driving in the lumpy conditions and bigger breeze, because I don't see much of that up here and I came to racing later in life.

 

So, for 2014 we are going to try to get two or three weekends that we can get the boat down to Newport and compete is some local events. Plus, we are going to use our one-design sails for most of the Weds night races in Boston, so we can get better at making the boat go faster when we race OD configuration. I'd also really like to pull someone in to race with us that can help with the local knowledge aspect in Newport, but that may be asking too much. At any rate, our goal is to make it to the top half of the fleet for the 2014 J/109 North Americans.

 

Hey Chris,

 

You say you came to racing later in life. I will put this down to a learning curve. We participate in this sport "in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play".  There are so many ways that your opening post fails to meet those recognized principals of good sportsmanship. I suggest you reach out to the other boat and offer them a private apology and then publish a public apology.  It would go a long way.

 

There are probably good sailors who would help you get up to speed and assist on tactics at Newport but most good sailors would not want to be associated with this sort of conduct. They would either file a protest, so that both sides can give their side of the story, and an independent PC would give  a ruling that both sides can learn from...OR...if they decide not to protest, you can mention it in a friendly way in the bar afterwards.  When you have decided not to protest.....what you did here is unworthy of our sport and I hope you can draw two deep breaths and find the courage to apologize..



#49 J109Guy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:14 PM

Holy shit, check it out...there is a Front Page on Sailing Anarchy!!!



#50 alymatt

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:25 PM

To the question of who would have won in the protest room had his stern hit you - from personal experience being in your spot - and after being hit - both boats are dsq'd!

 

You failed to give the windward boat enough room to avoid hitting you.  DSQ.

 

They hit you. DSQ

 

Careful what you wish for sometimes!



#51 flatearth

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:30 PM

MK actually the word in Rule 2 is compete, not participate. Why is the use of one word important? Because when you race you are competiting, not just participating. As previously written, the basic principle, usually overlooked and forgotten, is the paragraph that creates the self policing corinthian nature of the sport. It is also tells you one of the principles of sportsmanship.




 
For the link lazy...


 
Class 6 - J/109     1.   USA 146 Storm J 109 Rick Lyall 1 8 1 2 1 2 6 1 1   23.0     2.   USA 51 Rush J 109 Bill Sweetser 5 1 4 1 11 3 1 2 2   30.0     3.   USA 72 Gut Feeling J 109 Ted Herlihy 3 4 2 6 8 1 3 3 4   34.0     4.   USA 369 Skoot J 109 Jim Vos 4 2 3 4 3 12 5 4 8   45.0     5.   USA 52202 Caminos J 109 Donald Filippelli 6 3 6 3 2 10 7 8 5   50.0     6.   USA 93272 Reliant J 109 Matthew Baker 2 5 10 7 10 7 8 10 14   73.0     7.   USA 126 Picante J 109 Robert Salk / John Sahagian 11 10 5 11 15 9 2 11 3   77.0     8.   USA 144 Heat Wave J 109 Gary Weisberg 13 9 13 5 4 5 4 12 12   77.0     9.   USA 148 Blue Sky J 109 John Pearson 10 13 7 13 9 6 13 7 6   84.0     10.   USA 273 Strategery J 109 Jack Forehand 9 16 15 10 6 4 11 5 11   87.0     11.   USA 267 Nordlys J 109 Bob Schwartz 8 7 9 12 7 15 14 6 9   87.0     12.   USA 360 Big Boat J 109 William Rogers 7 11 12 9 5 13 12 9 13   91.0     13.   USA 266 Vento Solare J 109 Paul Milo 15 12 8 8 13 8 10 15 10   99.0     14.   USA 171 Superstition J 109 Christopher Zibailo 16 6 11 15 12 11 9 13 7   100.0     15.   USA 272 WildThing J 109 Dan / Mitch Boyd / Wiest 12 14 16 16 14 16 15 14 15   132.0     16.   USA 140 Troublemaker J 109 Eric Gordon 14 15 14 14 16 14 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC   141.0     17.   USA 52418 Joyride J 109 Greg Imbruce 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC 18/DNC   162.0

Oh yes, we get severely spanked when we sail one-design in Newport. Most of the racing we do up in Mass Bay is in much lighter breeze, so we are using PHRF sails and not the class sails. And as we are all amateur, Group 1 competitors and have very little Newport local knowledge we have been at the bottom of the fleet the four times we have raced in the NAs over the last 10 years. Plus, I tend to do a really crappy job driving in the lumpy conditions and bigger breeze, because I don't see much of that up here and I came to racing later in life.
 
So, for 2014 we are going to try to get two or three weekends that we can get the boat down to Newport and compete is some local events. Plus, we are going to use our one-design sails for most of the Weds night races in Boston, so we can get better at making the boat go faster when we race OD configuration. I'd also really like to pull someone in to race with us that can help with the local knowledge aspect in Newport, but that may be asking too much. At any rate, our goal is to make it to the top half of the fleet for the 2014 J/109 North Americans.
 
Hey Chris,
 
You say you came to racing later in life. I will put this down to a learning curve. We participate in this sport "in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play".  There are so many ways that your opening post fails to meet those recognized principals of good sportsmanship. I suggest you reach out to the other boat and offer them a private apology and then publish a public apology.  It would go a long way.
 
There are probably good sailors who would help you get up to speed and assist on tactics at Newport but most good sailors would not want to be associated with this sort of conduct. They would either file a protest, so that both sides can give their side of the story, and an independent PC would give  a ruling that both sides can learn from...OR...if they decide not to protest, you can mention it in a friendly way in the bar afterwards.  When you have decided not to protest.....what you did here is unworthy of our sport and I hope you can draw two deep breaths and find the courage to apologize..


#52 Great Red Shark

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:41 PM

It may have been that your hail was simply misunderstood - repeating the same words really won't help in that case.

Perhaps " Weather boat, you need to KEEP CLEAR " would have explained it to them.

Good Lord, do you come off as a blow hard.

#53 Vee

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:30 PM

 

You need to read and seriously consider your signature line.

 

After that seriously consider resigning your position at Mass Bay Sailing Association, then sell the boat and take up a sport that will fit your intelligence level.

 

Tiddlywinks comes to mind.



#54 JohnnyHammersticks

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:22 PM

Based on OP's timestamp, I suspect that the most important rule violation here was of Rule 72 (link)

 

Perhaps the Boston fleet should get a copy of that rule for Superstition, and then everyone does circles until they feel better.



#55 RustySkiff

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:48 PM

Mast abeam... :D



#56 andy02m

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:11 PM

This was a beer can race! I am all for discussing someone's (alleged) error and trying to figure out what actually went wrong. But it is silly and I think against the spirit of such a race to post a super passive aggressive rant which alleges a rule violation for a race that is supposed to be about fun and teaching/reviewing how to race. 

I guess I'd be more understanding if this rant grew out of a worlds or na or something.



#57 sansouci

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:13 PM

Sing kumbyya, shake hands and share a beer. Get over it!

#58 Leon T

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:51 PM

“Any fool can criticize, complain, and condemn--and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.” 
― Dale CarnegieHow to Win Friends and Influence People



#59 Great Red Shark

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:08 PM

"It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel" (Proverbs 20:3)

#60 Leon T

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:19 PM

"The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong."
Mahatma Gandhi 

 

 

"How about a Fresca?"
Judge Elihu Smails 
 



#61 Rabid Yak

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:22 PM

Damn! Reading this is 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back.



#62 Brass

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 12:28 AM

Brass,

the problem is the "promptly" in that case. If Super gave nearly 11 meters (not feet) (interesting number to choose, btw, z - 10.9 m.. or 109 cm.. or..) of room at the start of the overlap, and the boat in question didn't "promptly" maneuver to stay clear, it'd be hard to say that Super didn't meet their obligation.

 

Agree that if there had been 10m between boats when OP acquired right of way, there woudl be no question about OP not initially giving room to keep clear in accordance with rule 15.

 

I swore I wouldn't go back to reading OP's unpleasant supercilious rant, but I did.  Here are some Facts Found based on the OP.

  1. About 1 minute before the starting signal A and B were on the same tack, A clear ahead of B.

  2. B became overlapped to leeward of A with not more than 1 metre between boats.

  3. B began changing course towards A and hailed "leeward, pleas head up" (when there was a distance of about 10.9 metres between skippers).

  4. A hailed 'What's that mean?" repeatedly.

  5. A put her helm hard over moving her stern towards B.

  6. B changed course by bearing away to avoid contact with B. 

OP(B)'s evidence was that 'a few seconds [after B became overlapped to leeward of the other boat (A)] B started to change course ... to head up and ... hailed "leeward, please head up" ... from about 10.9 metres away from "you"'.

 

Its  J109:  10.9 metres is 'one boatlength'

 

So B's evidence was that when she hailed there was 10.9 metres, that is one of his boatlengths, between the skippers of the two boats.  That would mean that the distance between the bow of B and some part of the hull of A was about 1 metre.  So we are getting more or less into rule 15 territory.

 

B's evidence was that, after she became overlapped to leeward of A B changed course and then hailed A.  This means that B was able to (and actually did) change course (towards A) without immediately making contact, thus, when B first became overlapped with A, A was keeping clear, without the need for any room to be given by B until B started changing course towards A, therefore, until she started changing course towards A, A had room t keep clear (and was actually keeping clear) and B was giving A room to keep clear.

 

So this is a rule 16.1 issue, not a rule 15 issue.

 

It's always going to be difficult to reach fair and sensible conclusions on a rule 16 issue seeing just one side of the story, and I won't try here.

 

The point I was trying to make by citing Case 24 and the MR Calls was that it is possible for a keep clear boat that has been given sufficient room to keep clear to manoeuvre in a gross or extravagant way so that she takes more room than she was entitled to and thus forfeit the 'protection' of an entitlement to room to keep clear.

 

This would apply whether the keep clear boat acted promtply or not.



#63 Brass

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 12:52 AM

To the question of who would have won in the protest room had his stern hit you - from personal experience being in your spot - and after being hit - both boats are dsq'd!

 

You failed to give the windward boat enough room to avoid hitting you.  DSQ.

 

They hit you. DSQ

 

Careful what you wish for sometimes!

I think your analysis is a bit sketchy, or possibly your experience is with people who don't apply the rules very well.

 

When a right of way boat that is obliged to give a keep clear boat room to keep clear does not do so there will usually be contact between the boats.

 

The keep clear boat will inevitably break the relevant right of way rule.

 

The right of way boat will break the relevant give room to keep clear rule.

 

The keep clear boat will have been compelled to break the right of way rule by the right of way boat breaking the room to keep clear rule and will be exonerated for breaking the right of way rule in accordance with rule 64.1( a ).

 

Boats are required to avoid contact if it is reasonably possible to do so in accordance with rule 14.

 

In this case the keep clear boat was compelled to not keep clear by the right of way boat not giving her room to keep clear.  It necessarily follows that it was not reasonably possible for the keep clear boat to keep clear and avoid contact.  The keep clear boat does not break rule 14.

 

If there was no boat, obstruction or other factor constraining the keep clear boat from avoiding contact she probably broke rule 14.  If there was no damage or injury she wil be exonerated for breaking rule 14 in accordance with rule 14( b ).

 

Summary:

  1. The keep clear boat broke the right of way rule but is exonerated, and did not break rule 14:  the keep clear boat will not be penalised.
  2. The right of way boat broke the room to keep clear rule:  The right of way boat should be penalised.
  3. The right of way boat may or may not have broken rule 14, and if so, may or may not be exonerated for so doing.

End of the day:  in a failure to give room incident, you should NOT expect to see both boats penalised.



#64 facthunt

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:13 AM

Right "Cock Zest". One design NOT MUCH.

CYC Wednesday nights are a gimmie for a J109 in usually pursuit style race courses. Surprised he felt the need for a public tantrum.

Or maybe not surprised....

 

His J70 is on order

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you need to give enough room that it is not possible for them to hit you when their transom comes at you....

 

Show us where it says this in the rules, please.

 

 

He's going to have some difficulty.

 

Case 24 makes it clear that a windward boat, taking action to keep clear can take more room than is necessary.  MR Calls B3 and B5 also show examples.

 

I thought Gypsyclub put it quite nicely.

 

CASE 24

Definition, Room

Rule 11, On the Same Tack, Overlapped

Rule 12, On the Same Tack, Not Overlapped

Rule 15, Acquiring Right of Way

When a boat becomes overlapped to leeward from clear astern, the other boat must act promptly to keep clear.

When she cannot do so in a seamanlike way, she has not been given room as required by rule 15. If she takes

unnecessary action that causes contact, she fails to keep clear as required by rule 11.

 

Zackly

 

The key point is usually "how promptly did Windward take action" (notice it doesn't say "slam the helm over")

How much seperation between boats is important but can be affected by the angle between the boats courses (which many skippers seem to ignore for some reason).

 

One thing Astern-Leeward needs to take into account, the Ahead-Windward boat need take no action until after the overlap is established, and if they are going slow, sails luffing, etc etc, then they are probably making more leeway than usual.

 

If Ahead-Windward just slams the helm over and hits Astern-Leeward, that gets them a DSQ -if- it is likely they could have kept clear and avoided contact by putting the helm over somewhat less, or perhaps done something with those big white flappy things.

 

FB- Doug

 

You can console yourself with that knowledge when you see that dsq on your score card.

Semantics generally don't fly in the protest room unless your name is syd or mark or perhaps fb doug, my point is its high risk,

experienced sailors dont put themselves in a position where they can be fouled.

just in case you ask, this not a rule, its just common sense. 



#65 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:46 AM

Have you seen 'Much ado about nothing'?

#66 Nix's Mate

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 11:30 AM

Whatever. We got fouled Wed. night too, actually during the race with a rule that is basic as it gets, kinda fucked up the rest of our race. They apologized profusely afterwards, bought us drinks, end of story. Get a life - it's Wed. night, not the America's Cup... (well - the America's Cup isn't the America's Cup either.... ) 



#67 Timo42

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 01:10 PM

So no one has pointed this thread out to the 'allegedly' offending party yet? This could turn into a real SA shitfight with a bit of effort... :ph34r:

 

 

 

 

I'm going out for popcorn, anybody want anything?



#68 Squalamax

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 02:38 PM

What a cocky and condescending rant by this guy, and he's an official for his home fleet! Pathetic.



#69 Lorax

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 05:53 PM

1. Protest hearings severely cut into our Wednesday night drinking time. I like where our priorities are.

2. It was a rant, nobody was/is legitimately worked up over it.

3. Nix's Mate, we all understand the real fault on that Port/Starboard was my trimmer, Googlyboobs, who was distracting me. Thanks for not cutting my boat in half.

4. I think we should just make a Wednesday night protest thread with voting and do protests online here. Might be entertaining.

#70 Timo42

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:10 PM

1. Protest hearings severely cut into our Wednesday night drinking time. I like where our priorities are.

2. It was a rant, nobody was/is legitimately worked up over it.

3. Nix's Mate, we all understand the real fault on that Port/Starboard was my trimmer, Googlyboobs, who was distracting me. Thanks for not cutting my boat in half.

4. I think we should just make a Wednesday night protest thread with voting and do protests online here. Might be entertaining.

 

Now that's an idea, would definitly be entertaining to hear both sides, but the competing rules quotation might crash the internet.

 

To judge your case however, we would need pics of the offending trimmer...



#71 JohnnyHammersticks

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 06:41 PM

4. I think we should just make a Wednesday night protest thread with voting and do protests online here. Might be entertaining.

 

Yes!  May the internetz provide us with proper context and treat each of our Wednesday night protests with appropriate.. gravitas.

 

Googlyboobs for president



#72 oldsaltgirl

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:55 PM

The first rule to sailing is BE A GOOD SPORT.  Sportmanship is KEY to being a good competitor.  Your rant is disgusting and you are known for your rants.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  You make yourself out to be a god on the water.  Trust me, you are not.  Get a life, get a clue and act like a good sport and stop thinking that you know all the rules, you don't.  Perhaps you should spend some time over the winter taking the Judge's Seminar at US Sailing.  



#73 greggus

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 08:57 PM

Some have claimed this was written in a manner lacking sportsmanship, I might agree. But, many have also posted in the same manner in their own attack upon the orignal author, all under the guise of anonymity. I think we have satisfied every mercy rule from every sport...the pile on is now reflecting poorly on OUR sport. Time to go home people, the show is over.



#74 New 5ksb

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:45 AM

Hey windbag. Just last weekend at the Hull YC Great chase race you barely beat a Int. 210, 3 Thunderbirds  a Int.110 and 6 Rhodes 19. What's that mean!  Maybe you spend a little less time writing about fellow sailors and more time learning how sail .



#75 Throatwarbler-Mangrove

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 02:21 AM


4. I think we should just make a Wednesday night protest thread with voting and do protests online here. Might be entertaining.

I'm trying to imagine the SIs:

 

16 Protests and Requests for Redress

16.1 Protests and requests for redress shall be delivered in the form of a rant on forums.sailinganarchy.com within the time limit.  This modifies RRS61.1, 61.2, 89 and 91.

16.2 Protest time limit is 1 hour after the bar closes.  Or when the parties are sufficiently intoxicated.  Or when the parties have sufficiently recovered from their hangovers.  Whatever.

16.3 The judge(s), jury and executioners shall be the usual suspects on forums.sailinganarchy.com, except that the opinions of Bull Gator will be ignored.  This changes rules 89.2 and 91.

16.4 RRS 63 shall not apply.  This changes RRS63.

16.5 Penalties shall consist of abuse, public humiliation, personal attacks, derision, contempt and insults to the intelligence and/or sportsmanship of the party or parties.  Penalties may be administered to parties who are exonerated, as well as the Race Committee.  This replaces RRS 64.

16.6 The usual suspects will somewhere in the thread make wild guesses about the facts of the incident, pontificate about the applicable rules(s), argue about the decision (or not as the case may be) and administer the penalties.  Any conflict in their conclusions shall be resolved by insults and personal attacks.  This replaces RRS 65.

16.7  Appeals?  We don't do no stinking appeals.  However, the usual suspects and the parties may continue to beat the dead horse as long as they choose.  This replaces RRS 70.



#76 Gypsyclubjuggler

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 01:59 PM


 

experienced sailors dont put themselves in a position where they can be fouled.

just in case you ask, this not a rule, its just common sense. 

Quite right - always avoid sailing on starboard because it's too easy to get fouled, poor seamanship.



#77 HILLY

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 02:15 PM

Attached File  10Commandments of beercan racing.pdf   486.12K   72 downloads



#78 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:31 PM

Some have claimed this was written in a manner lacking sportsmanship, I might agree. But, many have also posted in the same manner in their own attack upon the orignal author, all under the guise of anonymity. I think we have satisfied every mercy rule from every sport...the pile on is now reflecting poorly on OUR sport. Time to go home people, the show is over.


Word of advice - 2 post newbies don't declare threads closed nor bitch about posting anonymously. Please take the time to complete your newb obligations by snapping a quick shot of your GF's jugs and posting them here. The 'go fuck yourself ' obligation appears to be something you do at least once each day. Gunna be hard to post once you go blind.

#79 gullwinkle

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:03 AM

Dear Mr. Z,
Asail and rollerfurl?
Time to take it to the next step after 10 years and bottom 1/4 of one design.

Regards,
One of the Hound Dog guys.

#80 facthunt

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:22 AM

 

 

experienced sailors dont put themselves in a position where they can be fouled.

just in case you ask, this not a rule, its just common sense. 

Quite right - always avoid sailing on starboard because it's too easy to get fouled, poor seamanship.

poor semenship on your fathers behalf.



#81 greasy al

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:00 AM

Wait, let's get back to googlyboobs.

#82 DRDNA

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:36 PM

 

 

 

poor semenship on your fathers behalf.

That is very clever!!



#83 Anonymous Anarchist

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:00 PM

attachicon.gif10Commandments of beercan racing.pdf

I'm remembering something I learned years ago...after the race the amateurs talk about the race, the professionals talk about women.

aa



#84 oldsaltgirl

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:58 PM

Haha - love the last post.  This is not the America's Cup guys.  Learn the rules, apply them properly and be a good sport.

Slamming someone is not being a good sport.  



#85 fastyacht

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:20 PM

What's with the plethora of newbies pontificating on sportsmanship?



#86 Timo42

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:45 PM

Although we have probably heard from the o/p's wife, fellow J-boat people, and various trolls, no one from the offending boat has chimed in with their side of the story. You guys are slacking. There are standards for a proper shitfight.



#87 oldsaltgirl

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:37 PM

Maybe we got sick of listening to the rants from this guy!



#88 oldsaltgirl

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 08:51 PM

PS what is wrong with being a newbie, doesn't mean our opinions don't count.



#89 Timo42

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 11:23 PM

Don't sweat the newb stuff, it's just traditional, seems to scare off the faint of heart. B)

 

 

You'll notice that the O/P didn't get a lot of love here :rolleyes:



#90 MoMP

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 11:28 PM

Bostonians behaving badly.... Way to represent......

#91 Laserty

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:30 AM

Stop being a rules quoting cunt

#92 rgscpat

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 03:03 AM

WARNING: This thread is in danger of exceeding 100 posts without appropriate display of anatomy.



#93 Murphness

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:23 PM

Stop being a rules quoting cunt

HA! You can tell him to his face tonight if you want...We need a bowman, Darren just called in sick...






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