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#301 Tom Ray

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:01 AM


Cocaine is a prescription drug.

Wanna try again?

What percentage of illegal cocaine trafficking is prescription cocaine?

Who cares? I can buy cocaine pretty much anywhere in America without much effort. People make and import it illegally and some is illegally diverted from the legal market. Either way, I can get it. Just like I can get marijuana. Prohibition of unregistered guns would work the same way, as you said.

Meaning, not work.

#302 Spatial Ed

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:38 AM

 


Cocaine is a prescription drug.

Wanna try again?

What percentage of illegal cocaine trafficking is prescription cocaine?

Who cares? I can buy cocaine pretty much anywhere in America without much effort. People make and import it illegally and some is illegally diverted from the legal market. Either way, I can get it. Just like I can get marijuana. Prohibition of unregistered guns would work the same way, as you said.

Meaning, not work.

It matters because you all are comparing unregulated drug dealing with prescription drug dealing, comparing that with how gun regulations will be effective.  If the percentage of illegal cocaine manufacturing vs. legal manufacturing in illegal trafficking is insignificant, the same could be applied to the effectiveness of  gun regulations on illegally manufactured guns vs legally manufactured ones.  



#303 Keith

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:11 AM

I'm in Canada, (obviously) We have gun laws and regulations, and registration. No problem.

 

But guess what, with a big fist full of dollars, any non-law abiding person can buy pretty much any gun they want. 

 

Its too late to change, the horse left the barn long ago, nothing stops bad guys with cash from buying a gun...

 

That's the reality of our age, just get used too it, or get your own gun.



#304 R Booze

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:38 AM

I've lived in Hell-A for a half century. You live in the sticks. Trust me, I know a thousand times more about drugs than you'll ever know about flying, sailing or even fucking. Combined.

 

Bet on it....

Are you a current drug dealer?  The market has changed a lot since the Reagan administration.  Just Say No!

 

 

Oh shit! And for all these years I thought she was yelling 'Just Say Blow!'......



#305 JBSF

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:04 AM

Illegal drugs guns, ones manufactured illegally, would be very difficult to control with a registry.

 

And you think it would be any harder to smuggle guns into the country than illegal drugs are?



#306 JBSF

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:07 AM

^Trust me^, 'illegal' prescription drugs (at least here in Hell-A) are easier to get than herpes or a f'ng parking ticket. And our two 20-somethings will gladly testify to that....

 

Your two 20 somethings have Herpes and parking tickets?  Wow, where did they get a parking ticket from?  ;)  



#307 Tom Ray

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:34 AM

I'm in Canada, (obviously) We have gun laws and regulations, and registration. No problem.

 

But guess what, with a big fist full of dollars, any non-law abiding person can buy pretty much any gun they want. 

 

Its too late to change, the horse left the barn long ago, nothing stops bad guys with cash from buying a gun...

 

That's the reality of our age, just get used too it, or get your own gun.

 


Tell Ed how your attempt at a long gun registry worked out up there, would you?



#308 Tom Ray

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:37 AM

Illegal drugs guns, ones manufactured illegally, would be very difficult to control with a registry.

 

And you think it would be any harder to smuggle guns into the country than illegal drugs are?

 


Smuggling coal to Newcastle.

 

We have hundreds of millions of them here, many unregistered, and I know of at least a few that will stay unregistered. Then there are the available machine tools, 3-D printers, and examples of homebuilders such as Mr. Stewart (of US v Stewart, remanded to 9th Circuit in 2005).

 

Yes, we could still get them from other countries, just as we do with drugs, but we're quite capable of making (and hiding) them here.



#309 mad

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:29 PM

I'm in Canada, (obviously) We have gun laws and regulations, and registration. No problem.
 
But guess what, with a big fist full of dollars, any non-law abiding person can buy pretty much any gun they want. 
 
Its too late to change, the horse left the barn long ago, nothing stops bad guys with cash from buying a gun...
 
That's the reality of our age, just get used too it, or get your own gun.

Just the same as the UK, its a shit load easier to get something illegaly with a load of cash rather legally and on a budget.

#310 Spatial Ed

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:34 PM

I'm in Canada, (obviously) We have gun laws and regulations, and registration. No problem.
 
But guess what, with a big fist full of dollars, any non-law abiding person can buy pretty much any gun they want. 
 
Its too late to change, the horse left the barn long ago, nothing stops bad guys with cash from buying a gun...
 
That's the reality of our age, just get used too it, or get your own gun.

Just the same as the UK, its a shit load easier to get something illegaly with a load of cash rather legally and on a budget.

Isn't that the case with any commodity?



#311 R Booze

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:35 PM

And let's not forget one of the most important aspects of these 'killing sprees'....anyone intent on going on a suicide mission (Lanza, the Columbiners, this black guy, V-Tech, the Texas clock tower guy, the Luby's shooter...et al), will never, EVER give a flying fuk about any laws we have on the books.

 

Ever.....



#312 Spatial Ed

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:40 PM

And let's not forget one of the most important aspects of these 'killing sprees'....anyone intent on going on a suicide mission (Lanza, the Columbiners, this black guy, V-Tech, the Texas clock tower guy, the Luby's shooter...et al), will never, EVER give a flying fuk about any laws we have on the books.

 

Ever.....

Absolutely true.  Which is why we need laws to prevent them from getting their weapons.  Its not them we need to prosecute, its those who provide them weapons.

 

The perp who sold Lanza's mom the Bushmaster just got pinched.

http://articles.cour...hop-nancy-lanza



#313 mad

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:47 PM


I'm in Canada, (obviously) We have gun laws and regulations, and registration. No problem.
 
But guess what, with a big fist full of dollars, any non-law abiding person can buy pretty much any gun they want. 
 
Its too late to change, the horse left the barn long ago, nothing stops bad guys with cash from buying a gun...
 
That's the reality of our age, just get used too it, or get your own gun.

Just the same as the UK, its a shit load easier to get something illegaly with a load of cash rather legally and on a budget.
Isn't that the case with any commodity?
And by further restricting them, you'll turn them even further into?.........

#314 Spatial Ed

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:48 PM

 

 


I'm in Canada, (obviously) We have gun laws and regulations, and registration. No problem.
 
But guess what, with a big fist full of dollars, any non-law abiding person can buy pretty much any gun they want. 
 
Its too late to change, the horse left the barn long ago, nothing stops bad guys with cash from buying a gun...
 
That's the reality of our age, just get used too it, or get your own gun.

Just the same as the UK, its a shit load easier to get something illegaly with a load of cash rather legally and on a budget.
Isn't that the case with any commodity?
And by further restricting them, you'll turn them even further into?.........

More expensive illegal items?



#315 Keith

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:13 PM

And let's not forget one of the most important aspects of these 'killing sprees'....anyone intent on going on a suicide mission (Lanza, the Columbiners, this black guy, V-Tech, the Texas clock tower guy, the Luby's shooter...et al), will never, EVER give a flying fuk about any laws we have on the books.

 

Ever.....

Absolutely true.  Which is why we need laws to prevent them from getting their weapons.  Its not them we need to prosecute, its those who provide them weapons.

 

The perp who sold Lanza's mom the Bushmaster just got pinched.

http://articles.cour...hop-nancy-lanza

I guess the lights really dim here.. you just don't get it, laws dont prevent people from doing something they will do anyway.....  

 

hello earth to Ed, laws make little or no difference to criminals and bad guys, because they dont give a fuck....

 

If your a law abiding citizen then yes, you will, probably, follow the rule of law, to the letter.. maybe...



#316 Spatial Ed

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:16 PM

So then no laws are needed.  Any law is going to be broken by those who don't give a fuck and those who do give a fuck won't do anything wrong anyways.  So why have any laws?



#317 R Booze

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:18 PM

So then no laws are needed.  Any law is going to be broken by those who don't give a fuck and those who do give a fuck won't do anything wrong anyways.  So why have any laws?

 

 

So that you 'Progressives' can go to bed at night, thinking you've cured all of America's ills....



#318 Keith

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:23 PM

http://fullcomment.n...-and-never-did/

 

 

 

From last year in Canada.



#319 Keith

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:28 PM

Same law, that keeps that guy, from stealing that, big clear, easy to see, glow in the dark, bag of cash money you keep on your front porch,

 

No ones gonna take that... there's a law.....!



#320 Spatial Ed

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:30 PM

Laws?  Needed?



#321 Tom Ray

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:19 AM

http://fullcomment.n...-and-never-did/
 
 
 
From last year in Canada.


Statistics Canada data show that just 4% of long guns involved in homicides were registered.


96% useless, and a price tag that ballooned out of control, with accompanying corruption.

What's not to love?

#322 mikeys clone no1

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:28 AM

Laws?  Needed?

when people can develop a sense of community and respect for one another, laws sort of go by the wayside.

i don't need someone to tell me murder and theft are against an explicit law. i already know that implicitly. 



#323 Spatial Ed

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:39 AM

Laws?  Needed?

when people can develop a sense of community and respect for one another, laws sort of go by the wayside.

i don't need someone to tell me murder and theft are against an explicit law. i already know that implicitly. 

So we have one vote to repeal all laws.  Anyone else?



#324 Keith

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:16 AM

http://fullcomment.n...-and-never-did/
 
 
 
From last year in Canada.


>Statistics Canada data show that just 4% of long guns involved in homicides were registered.


96% useless, and a price tag that ballooned out of control, with accompanying corruption.

What's not to love?

 

One of the most expensive wastes of tax dollars in Canada....

 

Just think what all that money could have done if properly used anywhere else.



#325 mad

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 12:42 PM


 


 



I'm in Canada, (obviously) We have gun laws and regulations, and registration. No problem.
 
But guess what, with a big fist full of dollars, any non-law abiding person can buy pretty much any gun they want. 
 
Its too late to change, the horse left the barn long ago, nothing stops bad guys with cash from buying a gun...
 
That's the reality of our age, just get used too it, or get your own gun.

Just the same as the UK, its a shit load easier to get something illegaly with a load of cash rather legally and on a budget.
Isn't that the case with any commodity?
And by further restricting them, you'll turn them even further into?.........
More expensive illegal items?

Almost there, but not quite.

More expensive LEGAL firearms!

Did you read my post about it being cheaper and (easier) to buy an illegal weapon than a legal one?

#326 Tom Ray

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 08:24 PM

Is there someplace in America where the War on Some Drugs is working and it's difficult to impossible to find the various illegal drugs?

 

If so, where?

I think the war on prescription drugs is fairly effective.  Rigidly controlled source and distribution channels.  ...

 


Rigid control.



#327 mad

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 10:07 PM


Is there someplace in America where the War on Some Drugs is working and it's difficult to impossible to find the various illegal drugs?
 
If so, where?

I think the war on prescription drugs is fairly effective.  Rigidly controlled source and distribution channels.  ...
 

Rigid control.
Good try, not even looking at that link.

#328 mikeys clone no1

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 11:06 PM

 

Laws?  Needed?

when people can develop a sense of community and respect for one another, laws sort of go by the wayside.

i don't need someone to tell me murder and theft are against an explicit law. i already know that implicitly. 

So we have one vote to repeal all laws.  Anyone else?

i think you missed the important bit. 



#329 TheFlash

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 12:04 AM

 

It was suggested on another thread that more Training should be included in the list of things needed for better gun control.  As I said, I am not opposed to training.  But how does that prevent or reduce mass shooter events from occurring?
 
From a safety aspect, I wholeheartedly endorse training requirements.  But I fail to see how that is included in gun control efforts.  Do we really want to make the mass shooters a better shot?  kill more people?  Again, what does training have to do with gun control?


It does the same thing as any gun control: makes it harder for people to legally own guns.

In Chicago, for example, they required training, but prohibited training facilities in town. They also prohibit guns on public transportation. To exercise your right to own a gun, you had to have the means to travel out of town repeatedly for training.

The courts saw the obvious problem with such a rule and it went away, but the general purpose was (and is) not to train better and safer shooters, but to find ways to make the training more and more difficult to obtain and to pass, making it harder for people to legally own guns.

Any little thing that can be done to make legal gun ownership harder will be attempted.

 

I'm not with you on this score. 

 

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

To many Militia means the National guard i.e. government. To myself and many gun owners it means a citizen army that is the last defender of freedom against tyranny. 

 

Given the revolutionary experience that is the context surrounding the writing of the constitution the latter meaning is self evident.

 

Still "well regulated" isn't just rhetorical fluff and I take that to mean that there was to be a framework of laws "regulating" this right. We all know that none of our rights is an absolute. The obvious example of yelling fire in a theater. We also know that some rights can be lost through due process for felony convictions, mental incapacity etc. 

 

I think demonstrating gun safety is not a high burden to the free exercise of my right to bare arms. It would improve safety and I think reduce crime and random violence. Maybe you think that last phrase is nuts but allow me to explain. There is a behavioral fact known to psychology that assigned responsibility is an effective way to modify bad behavior.  The smart principal who takes the bully aside and says "Sol I can tell you are a tough no nonsense kid and we have a new student that I'm afraid is going to get picked on. Would you take on the responsibility to help protect him? I don't mean physically but just let it be know that he is under your protection. Thanks I knew I could count on you"  

 

I've sat in on a number of various gun classes and the very best of these do a great job driving home the point that in practice carrying a gun is less a right and more of a responsibility. A responsibility to keep and handle the gun safely. The responsibility that you may one day have to draw that gun in defense, the responsibility to other gun owners not to make their lives more difficult because you made news using your gun inappropriately.

 

I'm not saying this will eliminate the problem but it could moderate it to a degree. 

 

You are correct that hoops and hurdles designed to discourage ownership are wrong but passing a safety course and background check every five years is not unreasonable. Gun ownership is a right and a responsibility. Taking the time to teach people that fact is not a wasted exercise. 

 

In general, I've learned to ignore gun threads, they just end up pissing me off, and some like that.  In particular I usually ignore Happy's threads, well, you know. 

 

However, this was one of the best written gun responsibility comments I've seen. 



#330 Tom Ray

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:20 PM

Ironically, the failure of you or others to respond to my follow up to that post tells me that I'm right not to trust any "training" regime designed to correct the assumed schoolyard bully mentality of gun owners.


Jack,

Hamilton said in Federalist 29 that the project of ensuring that the entire militia be at all times "well regulated" was impossible.

I doubt you are correct that your gun control idea would be any more effective than others at reducing violence. I think we would wind up training the same kinds of people who bother to get concealed weapons permits. The kind who commit crimes at a very low rate already.

Now let us ask Spatial and Mitch a question: would you be OK with every five years, or should it be more frequent? Annual? Monthly? Weekly? Daily? At some point, do frequent checks start looking like an infringement to you?

As usual, I want to hear what kind of gun control would NOT be "common sense" gun control, but would be excessive...

I doubt anything looks like an infringement on rights to those who just plain don't like the rights in question. The silence confirms it. Prove me wrong. Post a requirement that would be so unreasonable that it would be an infringement.

#331 JBSF

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:57 PM

Since this is the consolidated mass shooting thread, I have been pondering this question....

 

What is different between now where mass shootings (while still statistically insignificant in the overall murder rate) seems to be becoming more and more common when they were practically non-existent even a couple of decades ago?  What is different now that wasn't present back in the 60s, 70s and even early 80s.  It wasn't until the 90s and Columbine did the mass shooting craze really kick off.  Maybe we can even go back as far as 86 for the 1st "going postal" event. 

 

The guns themselves are not anymore lethal than they were in the previous decades, so that's not the issue.  Plus they are WAY more restricted now than they were back then, so lack of regulation is not the problem either.  So what is it?  What changed?

 

Is it:

  • Decline in mental health care
  • overuse of psychotropic drugs for children
  • Violent media (TV, movies, music, gaming, etc)
  • Poverty
  • Social media
  • 24/7 news cycle glorifying mass murders - spawning copycats
  • Social isolation
  • broken homes
  • lack of community
  • nomadic society
  • Breakdown of social mores
  • poor education

I'm sure I'm missing stuff.  Serious question tho.... what's different?



#332 Spatial Ed

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:47 PM

The guns themselves are not anymore lethal than they were in the previous decades, so that's not the issue.  Plus they are WAY more restricted now than they were back then, so lack of regulation is not the problem either.  So what is it?  What changed?

The advance of semi-automatic weapons available to the general public has exploded since the mid 80s.  Modern CNC manufacturing methods and advanced materials have allowed very tight tolerances giving us very complex and reliable weapons at a fraction of the cost.  Not until this point was the average citizen able to afford more than a few of these weapons.  Now, people like yourself are able to create personal arsenals.



#333 Tom Ray

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:00 PM

The guns themselves are not anymore lethal than they were in the previous decades, so that's not the issue.  Plus they are WAY more restricted now than they were back then, so lack of regulation is not the problem either.  So what is it?  What changed?

The advance of semi-automatic weapons available to the general public has exploded since the mid 80s.  Modern CNC manufacturing methods and advanced materials have allowed very tight tolerances giving us very complex and reliable weapons at a fraction of the cost.  Not until this point was the average citizen able to afford more than a few of these weapons.  Now, people like yourself are able to create personal arsenals.

 


Also, there are just more cunts around.

 

(someone had to say it)



#334 Spatial Ed

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:38 PM

 

The guns themselves are not anymore lethal than they were in the previous decades, so that's not the issue.  Plus they are WAY more restricted now than they were back then, so lack of regulation is not the problem either.  So what is it?  What changed?

The advance of semi-automatic weapons available to the general public has exploded since the mid 80s.  Modern CNC manufacturing methods and advanced materials have allowed very tight tolerances giving us very complex and reliable weapons at a fraction of the cost.  Not until this point was the average citizen able to afford more than a few of these weapons.  Now, people like yourself are able to create personal arsenals.

 


Also, there are just more cunts around.

 

(someone had to say it)

When faced with indisputable facts, the nutz go all cunt on ya.






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