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#1 NUDDY

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:22 AM

Hoe about we discuss it here.

#2 NUDDY

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:00 AM

How about we discuss it here.

I have certainly been known to bag Farriers in my time. However the first AMOC I did (1990) was won by the F27 (with Joel Berg on board and doing a lot of the steering). When the F24 MkII first hit Geoff Berg was winning everything he entered. If we look at the history of inshore racing in Aust I think we will  find a lot of Farriers in the results. I do think that apart from his folding system(s) Farrier has been a bit behind the times. Very late with rotating masts, square top sails buoyant floats. But as he says, he designs cruising boats and I think he does a good job of that.

I think Darren was talking line honors inshore.

If we are looking at line honors offshore then I think Lock had it tied up. But don't forget Adrian Rodgers with Shotover II, devastatingly quick boat when sailed by the right people.

Seacart 30 was disappointing in B-G this year but has been impressive on Pittwater and in the light wind Nationals. It would be interesting to see a SeaCart 26 inshore.

Anyway a long way off thread now. 

- - - - - - - - - -

The most important key to good performance is always the guy behind the wheel, and this is usually the first place to look with any good or bad performance. 

 

However, I agree that I was late with using a rotating mast, but was also well aware of the performance advantages, and the only reason I did not use was they are more difficult to raise and lower, which made it too hard to rig fast single handed. Could have killed the F-27, which was simplicity in itself to rig fast, and a rotating mast may not have gone over well in the American market at that time. A major target market was the vast numbers of monohull sailors, who knew very little about multihulls, and they actually proved to be the majority of buyers as I recall. Here was a fast multihull that handled/tacked as well as their monohull, and it also had interior room!

 

The next design (my original version of the 1990 F-24) however had a rotating mast, but it was not until the 2002 F-33 that I considered I had the raising system really worked out, and easy enough for single handed rigging of a rotating mast.

 

However, late with square top mains? We were one of the first to have them in 1993 with the Formula F-27 and F-25C sail plans as developed by Randy Smyth. I could immediately see the benefits and they became standard across my range in around 1996.

 

attachicon.gifF-25C1995JPEG.jpg

 

Did any Australian trailerable multihull even have a square top back then?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Pretty sure the famous Grainger design tris, Riverside Oaks, Silent Running and Born to Run did and they were years ahead of any other trailable multi on the racing scene then and not too shabby still now. Surely you'd remember them Ian!

Also Hard Yakka/Awlgrip On/APCII with the 'proper' wing mast.

- - - - - - - - - -

  Remember them well, Silent Running did a hand stand right in front of our F-31 in the 1991 Australian Nationals in only 15 - 20 knots, and we had to take avoiding action. Could not believe how easily he went in, but that is what one gets with a tall rig on skinny hulls. I think we were still faster in every race too, in spite of all our extra room inside, and I can't remember him having a square top? Photos?

 

Riverside Oaks was also in the same series, but again I can't remember him having a square top? Photos or it did not happen.

 

Same for Born To Run - don't recall any square Top? Photos?

 

I also remember Hard Yakka. The owner Trottie even came by our Tramp on a wet and wind night at Fraser Island, looking for a dry bunk as there wasn't one on his tri. Always felt guilty about turning him away as my Tramp back then had a rather unique cuddy cabin, with just enough room for three inside, and no cockpit cabin. Ever since, I have always tried to have an emergency extra bunk somewhere, and in the F-22 it is under the cockpit. Should call it the Trottie bunk, as Doug is the main reason for it. 

 

I also don't recall Hard Yakka having a square top back then? Photos? 

 

I'm sure I have photos of the first F-27 to have a square top back around 1992, and of the above boats without them, but I'm out of the office at present, and can't access my old photo files (actual photos) until next week.

 

I also remember having to take a major sailmaker to task, who was trying to sabotage square tops on the F-25C and Formula F-27 by sending out free pinhead mainsails around 1993 I think, to try and stop the use of square tops. I suspect this was because their then sail molds could not make a square top. However, they are fully onboard now, but I did have to put a note on the sail plans warning builders that monohull sailmakers may not support square tops, and could try to persuade them not to do it.

 

I was using curved lifting foils 20 years before anyone else, and square tops were another early feature of F-boats. The 1994 F-24 Mk II had one as standard.

 

So Nuddy, I think you owe me an apology?

 

And a bit more on the subject previously being discussed here, or which designer has the most race wins. But first a warning - it is a bit long and contains a lot of logic and common sense, which is not always to everyone's taste:  

 

How many wins by which designer is all a bit irrelevant in the real world, as probably the most important factor for good race results is the skill of the crew aboard. My designs are certainly not the fastest, as they also provide room coupled with a safe power to weight ratio, so there will always be something faster. But F-boats are certainly fast enough,

 

What really counts is the most important race of all, which is the one that interests me more, and also most buyers. This is the viability race, or overall performance, where the race starts just after a family of 4 arrives at the ramp, with boat legally roadworthy on trailer. Gun goes off, they rig and launch it themselves (no crane or outside assistance allowed), and then sail around an Olympic triangle  to end at an anchorage. 

 

A  basic lunch must then be cooked using the onboard galley, with all four sitting around the dining table to consume.

 

post-18231-0-59668900-1379577113_thumb.j

 

They then clean up, and have a quick 5 minute (timed) nap in the four berths, with the parents using the onboard double.

 

Anchor is now pulled up and boat is sailed directly back to the ramp where race ends on the trailer, with boat fully de-rigged ready for the road, and again without any outside assistance.

 

post-18231-0-87830400-1379577615_thumb.j

An disassembly process not going so well - all

the Trailertris and F-boats had long gone by now

 

The above is the only race that really matters in the real world, where boats have to be sellable, and bills have to be paid, and F-boats will do very well in such a race, if not being unbeatable. 

 

Winning races with an over rigged stick boat that takes hours to rig can sure be something to boast about, but just about anyone could design such boats. It all comes down to the biggest rig with the least amount of room winning. It is much harder to provide room and easy trailerability as well, or a practical boat with real advantages and features that appeal to the majority of buyers.

 

Owners of such boats will also not lose their shirts on resale value, which makes it much easier to buy another multihull (that works), growing the multihull market, and avoiding what is very small niche market for the impractical and uncomfortable. 

 

Some may very well enjoy spending hours to rig up, as they can then chat to their few friends who are also spending hours at the ramp. However this is not really a good selling feature, and I don't know of anyone advertising their boat where taking hours to setup is claimed as an advantage and a great conversation starter. 

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work....

- - - - - - - -

Valid points Ian but I think everyone in this thread already knew what you think is important. 
Semi related question, assuming you made the same amount of money designing and selling your current boats as opposed to occasionally designing all out race machines that won line honours which would you choose? 



#3 NUDDY

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:08 AM

I have said that Ian designs cruising boats and he does a pretty good job of it. I would add that he does a very good job of designing and developing trailable cruising tris. Particularly based on his premise that one should keep the boat on the trailer and tow it to the water, rig and launch whenever one wants to go for a sail. I prefer to keep my boat in the water, on a mooring, and only occasionally trail to other pieces of water. Ians designs are quite good for that although optimised for his premise. I also think that Ians tris are quite good for racing, although not optimised for that. They are particularly competitive when raced under a quite accurate rating system such as OMR.



#4 auscat

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:21 AM

A racing Farrier is a bit like a Volvo sports car.Might be nice but not a Ferrari.

#5 minimus

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:50 AM

I bought my F242 because I was sick of monos. The only way to go faster was to go bigger.

I was pleasantly surprised with the overall ease of the boat, sailing and setting up.

I race mine on the Auckland harbour and cruise it extensively now on Lake Rotoiti.

I couldn't do that easily without a farrier.

The F242 is a bit heavy for me so I'm investing in Ian's  new F22



#6 NUDDY

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:59 AM

I bought my F242 because I was sick of monos. The only way to go faster was to go bigger.

I was pleasantly surprised with the overall ease of the boat, sailing and setting up.

I race mine on the Auckland harbour and cruise it extensively now on Lake Rotoiti.

I couldn't do that easily without a farrier.

The F242 is a bit heavy for me so I'm investing in Ian's  new F22

Farriers are a great compromise if you want to cruise and race. I have a greater emphasis on racing and am happy to put up with more spartan cruising so my compromise is more towards racing. We used to cruise our 470 racing dinghy.



#7 SCANAS

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:11 AM

I was being sarcastic Nuddy! 

 

I like to keep my boats in the water too, I find it's a lot easier to take the afternoon off and jump aboard for a quick sail if it's in the water, rigged, and hence the boat gets used a lot more. Ironically, my berth is behind a private residence, they don't use the berth as they have a F-27 hauled up the side of the house on a trailer. I think my boat goes out 5 times as much as theirs but that's not really the point of the thread.

 

Did Wilparina ever get any wins offshore?



#8 PIL007

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:31 AM

Speaking of Grainger cats and wing masts........one of my favs a while back was the old Brandy Creek Ferry when it had a large wing section. It was a Grainger wasn't it.....?



#9 PIL007

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:35 AM

I was being sarcastic Nuddy! 

 

I like to keep my boats in the water too, I find it's a lot easier to take the afternoon off and jump aboard for a quick sail if it's in the water, rigged, and hence the boat gets used a lot more. Ironically, my berth is behind a private residence, they don't use the berth as they have a F-27 hauled up the side of the house on a trailer. I think my boat goes out 5 times as much as theirs but that's not really the point of the thread.

 

Did Wilparina ever get any wins offshore?

Didn't Rob win the regatta at Roslyn Bay after B to G one year off Keppel...? The year 2000 ish, give or take



#10 Indian Chief

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:26 AM

How about we discuss it here.

I have certainly been known to bag Farriers in my time. However the first AMOC I did (1990) was won by the F27 (with Joel Berg on board and doing a lot of the steering). When the F24 MkII first hit Geoff Berg was winning everything he entered. If we look at the history of inshore racing in Aust I think we will  find a lot of Farriers in the results. I do think that apart from his folding system(s) Farrier has been a bit behind the times. Very late with rotating masts, square top sails buoyant floats. But as he says, he designs cruising boats and I think he does a good job of that.

I think Darren was talking line honors inshore.

If we are looking at line honors offshore then I think Lock had it tied up. But don't forget Adrian Rodgers with Shotover II, devastatingly quick boat when sailed by the right people.

Seacart 30 was disappointing in B-G this year but has been impressive on Pittwater and in the light wind Nationals. It would be interesting to see a SeaCart 26 inshore.

Anyway a long way off thread now. 

- - - - - - - - - -

The most important key to good performance is always the guy behind the wheel, and this is usually the first place to look with any good or bad performance. 

 

However, I agree that I was late with using a rotating mast, but was also well aware of the performance advantages, and the only reason I did not use was they are more difficult to raise and lower, which made it too hard to rig fast single handed. Could have killed the F-27, which was simplicity in itself to rig fast, and a rotating mast may not have gone over well in the American market at that time. A major target market was the vast numbers of monohull sailors, who knew very little about multihulls, and they actually proved to be the majority of buyers as I recall. Here was a fast multihull that handled/tacked as well as their monohull, and it also had interior room!

 

The next design (my original version of the 1990 F-24) however had a rotating mast, but it was not until the 2002 F-33 that I considered I had the raising system really worked out, and easy enough for single handed rigging of a rotating mast.

 

However, late with square top mains? We were one of the first to have them in 1993 with the Formula F-27 and F-25C sail plans as developed by Randy Smyth. I could immediately see the benefits and they became standard across my range in around 1996.

 

attachicon.gifF-25C1995JPEG.jpg

 

Did any Australian trailerable multihull even have a square top back then?

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs That Work

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Pretty sure the famous Grainger design tris, Riverside Oaks, Silent Running and Born to Run did and they were years ahead of any other trailable multi on the racing scene then and not too shabby still now. Surely you'd remember them Ian!

Also Hard Yakka/Awlgrip On/APCII with the 'proper' wing mast.

- - - - - - - - - -

  Remember them well, Silent Running did a hand stand right in front of our F-31 in the 1991 Australian Nationals in only 15 - 20 knots, and we had to take avoiding action. Could not believe how easily he went in, but that is what one gets with a tall rig on skinny hulls. I think we were still faster in every race too, in spite of all our extra room inside, and I can't remember him having a square top? Photos?

 

Riverside Oaks was also in the same series, but again I can't remember him having a square top? Photos or it did not happen.

 

Same for Born To Run - don't recall any square Top? Photos?

 

I also remember Hard Yakka. The owner Trottie even came by our Tramp on a wet and wind night at Fraser Island, looking for a dry bunk as there wasn't one on his tri. Always felt guilty about turning him away as my Tramp back then had a rather unique cuddy cabin, with just enough room for three inside, and no cockpit cabin. Ever since, I have always tried to have an emergency extra bunk somewhere, and in the F-22 it is under the cockpit. Should call it the Trottie bunk, as Doug is the main reason for it. 

 

I also don't recall Hard Yakka having a square top back then? Photos? 

 

I'm sure I have photos of the first F-27 to have a square top back around 1992, and of the above boats without them, but I'm out of the office at present, and can't access my old photo files (actual photos) until next week.

 

I also remember having to take a major sailmaker to task, who was trying to sabotage square tops on the F-25C and Formula F-27 by sending out free pinhead mainsails around 1993 I think, to try and stop the use of square tops. I suspect this was because their then sail molds could not make a square top. However, they are fully onboard now, but I did have to put a note on the sail plans warning builders that monohull sailmakers may not support square tops, and could try to persuade them not to do it.

 

I was using curved lifting foils 20 years before anyone else, and square tops were another early feature of F-boats. The 1994 F-24 Mk II had one as standard.

 

So Nuddy, I think you owe me an apology?

 

And a bit more on the subject previously being discussed here, or which designer has the most race wins. But first a warning - it is a bit long and contains a lot of logic and common sense, which is not always to everyone's taste:  

 

How many wins by which designer is all a bit irrelevant in the real world, as probably the most important factor for good race results is the skill of the crew aboard. My designs are certainly not the fastest, as they also provide room coupled with a safe power to weight ratio, so there will always be something faster. But F-boats are certainly fast enough,

 

What really counts is the most important race of all, which is the one that interests me more, and also most buyers. This is the viability race, or overall performance, where the race starts just after a family of 4 arrives at the ramp, with boat legally roadworthy on trailer. Gun goes off, they rig and launch it themselves (no crane or outside assistance allowed), and then sail around an Olympic triangle  to end at an anchorage. 

 

A  basic lunch must then be cooked using the onboard galley, with all four sitting around the dining table to consume.

 

post-18231-0-59668900-1379577113_thumb.j

 

They then clean up, and have a quick 5 minute (timed) nap in the four berths, with the parents using the onboard double.

 

Anchor is now pulled up and boat is sailed directly back to the ramp where race ends on the trailer, with boat fully de-rigged ready for the road, and again without any outside assistance.

 

post-18231-0-87830400-1379577615_thumb.j

An disassembly process not going so well - all

the Trailertris and F-boats had long gone by now

 

The above is the only race that really matters in the real world, where boats have to be sellable, and bills have to be paid, and F-boats will do very well in such a race, if not being unbeatable. 

 

Winning races with an over rigged stick boat that takes hours to rig can sure be something to boast about, but just about anyone could design such boats. It all comes down to the biggest rig with the least amount of room winning. It is much harder to provide room and easy trailerability as well, or a practical boat with real advantages and features that appeal to the majority of buyers.

 

Owners of such boats will also not lose their shirts on resale value, which makes it much easier to buy another multihull (that works), growing the multihull market, and avoiding what is very small niche market for the impractical and uncomfortable. 

 

Some may very well enjoy spending hours to rig up, as they can then chat to their few friends who are also spending hours at the ramp. However this is not really a good selling feature, and I don't know of anyone advertising their boat where taking hours to setup is claimed as an advantage and a great conversation starter. 

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work....

- - - - - - - -

Valid points Ian but I think everyone in this thread already knew what you think is important. 
Semi related question, assuming you made the same amount of money designing and selling your current boats as opposed to occasionally designing all out race machines that won line honours which would you choose? 

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)



#11 minimus

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:43 AM

Indian Chief

I think Ian's boats have over the years proven their qualities both in cruising and racing.

How many farrier designed boats have been built? 3000?

Carbon Credits will only win if the sailors are up to the job.

I think you have to own a farrier to appreciate them.



#12 Tony Considine

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 07:51 AM

I think the issue here is really people should sail what they like, there is no perfect boat. I built my first trimaran in 1967 and over the years, I have owned and built many boats but never a folding one and I believe I have convinced a number potential owners that the folding Farrier is the perfect boat for what they want to do, it is easy to sail, it has great resale value and it makes sense. But we are not all driven by those desires, some of us like to sail something different and we honestly don't see spending a few hours before or after a regatta putting the boat together or pulling it apart as a chore, I've done it for over 40 years and we haven't got sick of it yet. We love racing so we need a fast boat and Ian sums it up, a light boat with a big rig is fast but also a lot of fun. Our current boat Mad Max is a 10yo 33 ft cat that we've raced all over Australia but is fairly low tech with foam hulls, alloy beams and a carbon rig. It has less sail area than a F32SRC but it is fast and great fun to sail and these boats are plentiful and cheap for those who want to go fast but can't afford a F32SCR.

 

regards

 

Tony Considne

 

 

 

 

Attached Files



#13 jayson

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:16 AM

Ian , don't bother looking for any photos of Awgrip On or Born to Run with a square top , neither had them at the time , both these boats lived down at Sandgate yacht cub and Doug Trott actually lived about 150m from where I grew up ,where he built Knee Trembler and Awgrip On , and I went to school with Mick Mckeerings sons (he owned Born to Run.) both were /are very cool boats .

The biggest eye opener and probably where I got addicted to the speed of multis was the first time I landed on Doug's first tri Knee Trembler in the mid 80's .I was 15 yo ,sitting at home eating my wheat bix one Sunday morning when there was a strange knock at the front door , mum answered and yelled out that it was for me? Fred Gans had turned up(had never meet him before that) at my front door looking for a skipper ,(he had brought Knee Trembler off Doug). Trotty was suppose to sail but was Sick or hung over? Apparently Doug had told him "there's a young kid around the corner who would kill for a ride on KT." Next thing I know I'm driving a supercharged TT720 with an 18 ft skiff rig ..(what I remember most is blasting down wind at 15 to16 kts under that massive Tia Maria kite.. We won line honers in that winter series race . I got a peminate ride on that boat for the next 3 or 4 seasons .happy days.. Did 3 trailer tri nationals on that boat .

The farrier tris were the cats meow around this time as far as small multi's , until Born to run showed up in the late 80's and Awgrip surfaced very late 80's possibly 1990.

#14 SCANAS

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

I was being sarcastic Nuddy! 
 
I like to keep my boats in the water too, I find it's a lot easier to take the afternoon off and jump aboard for a quick sail if it's in the water, rigged, and hence the boat gets used a lot more. Ironically, my berth is behind a private residence, they don't use the berth as they have a F-27 hauled up the side of the house on a trailer. I think my boat goes out 5 times as much as theirs but that's not really the point of the thread.
 
Did Wilparina ever get any wins offshore?


From Ian's site >

The cruising orientated and road transportable F-36 has already established an excellent reputation with a number of ocean crossings, including multihull line honors in the 3500 mile Cape to Rio Race in 1996.

#15 SCANAS

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:20 AM

More sprooking >


Below is Dean Snow's F-82R 'Redshift" which took line honors in the 1998 Williamstown (Melbourne) to Geelong race in Australia, as part of the "Scotchman's Hill Festival of Sail" (Australia's largest keelboat regatta). 'Redshift' led home a fleet of around 200 boats in 5 hours and 14 minutes, 30 minutes ahead of the Grainger 42' racing trimaran 'Spirit of Emu'.

'Redshift' then went on to easily take line honors in the 1998 Marlay Point Race, Australia's largest race for trailer yachts (can be up to 600 boats). Second over the line was Greg Kay's F-28R (seen behind 'Redshift'), which was 1st overall on corrected time. Third over the line was an F-24 Mk II, fourth an F-25A, with another F-25A fifth.

'Redshift' took around 1500 hours to build, and material cost was approximately A$38,000 (US$24,000). 'Redshift' was sold for over A$80,000, and Dean has since built an F-9R.

Pretty good results but albeit a few years ago now!

#16 Ian Farrier

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 04:30 PM

How about we discuss it here

I

Valid points Ian but I think everyone in this thread already knew what you think is important. 
Semi related question, assuming you made the same amount of money designing and selling your current boats as opposed to occasionally designing all out race machines that won line honours which would you choose? 

 

The same as what I chose many years ago - good all round cruisers that are also reasonably fast. There is not much interest in all out racers, with little chance of commercial success, and 90% of sailors just want a boat that sails well, has good accommodation,can be easily trailered to different areas. and it all just works without too much effort required to go sailing.

 

 

Racers can be interesting and I'm tempted every now and then, but to do well, with good plans, it takes a lot of work with something like the F-32SR, for what are only limited numbers compared to cruising designs. However, once sorted, and in skilled hands, it could get interesting - time will tell. 

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine



#17 Ian Farrier

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:38 PM

A racing Farrier is a bit like a Volvo sports car.Might be nice but not a Ferrari.

 

A more valid comparison would be a BMW M3 versus a Lotus/Caterham Super 7 or Ariel Atom.

 

One is very refined with creature comforts like four seats, air conditioning, electric windows etc, or all the attributes of a comfortable family car that also happens to be very fast. The others are faster again, but somewhat lacking in creature comforts and practicality:

 

http://www.arielatom.com

 

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Lotus_Seven

 

Ian Farrier



#18 Ian Farrier

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:33 PM

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

 

Still can't resist the personal attacks I see, with little substance or facts to justify or back up your assertions. Both demountable (I also have one too) and folding trimarans are choices, with their own positive and negatives. So what's with the agro - things not going so well in the demountable world, or having trouble finding any worthwhile advantages to put forward? 

 

One F-32SR is also not going very well, even to where an older and much less powerful F-9R is faster at times. Obviously not setup or being sailed right yet, and most would realize that sometimes new boats can take a while to get up to speed. However, it seems you can't wait to stick the knife in - but maybe it is the only shot you have, or want to distract the attention away from 3 hour setup times?

 

Limited stability while folded has also always been a known factor with any folding tri, but this has never been hidden away as already discussed here. It is well covered and warned about in my 52 page Sailing Manual - does your design even have a Sailing Manual, or any safety warnings? I also have a website link in my Sailing Manual with more details and warnings of this possibility:

 

http://www.f-boat.com/foldedstability/

 

The solution is easy when required, and this is to simply unfold on the trailer first, and then launch at full width, or just the same as demountables do (but much more quickly). However, we prefer to minimize disruption at the ramp and always launch folded wherever possible, which is 99% of the time for most of my designs, with tens of thousands of problem free launchings. We can thus launch either way - what do you do when the ramp is very crowded and there's no room for an assembled wide demountable? On the other hand, if it has taken hours to rig, then by the time you are ready everybody else will be well gone :)

 

Ian Farrier

 

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#19 NUDDY

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:59 AM


How about we discuss it here

I
Valid points Ian but I think everyone in this thread already knew what you think is important. Semi related question, assuming you made the same amount of money designing and selling your current boats as opposed to occasionally designing all out race machines that won line honours which would you choose? 
 
The same as what I chose many years ago - good all round cruisers that are also reasonably fast. There is not much interest in all out racers, with little chance of commercial success, and 90% of sailors just want a boat that sails well, has good accommodation,can be easily trailered to different areas. and it all just works without too much effort required to go sailing.
 
 
Racers can be interesting and I'm tempted every now and then, but to do well, with good plans, it takes a lot of work with something like the F-32SR, for what are only limited numbers compared to cruising designs. However, once sorted, and in skilled hands, it could get interesting - time will tell. 
 
Ian Farrier
 
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All good points Ian. How do you see the F-32SR, as a racing car (open wheeler) or a sports racing car (Le Mans prototype) or a road car optimised for racing (L/C Super 7)?

#20 NUDDY

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:04 AM

A racing Farrier is a bit like a Volvo sports car.Might be nice but not a Ferrari.

 
A more valid comparison would be a BMW M3 versus a Lotus/Caterham Super 7 or Ariel Atom.
 
One is very refined with creature comforts like four seats, air conditioning, electric windows etc, or all the attributes of a comfortable family car that also happens to be very fast. The others are faster again, but somewhat lacking in creature comforts and practicality:
 
http://www.arielatom.com
 
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Lotus_Seven
 
Ian Farrier
I don't like the Volvo/Ferrari analogy either.
Like the F-Boat = M3 but thing the all out racers are more like racing prototypes that you would not drive on the highway.

#21 NUDDY

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 01:21 AM

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

 
Still can't resist the personal attacks I see, with little substance or facts to justify or back up your assertions. Both demountable (I also have one too) and folding trimarans are choices, with their own positive and negatives. So what's with the agro - things not going so well in the demountable world, or having trouble finding any worthwhile advantages to put forward? 
 
One F-32SR is also not going very well, even to where an older and much less powerful F-9R is faster at times. Obviously not setup or being sailed right yet, and most would realize that sometimes new boats can take a while to get up to speed. However, it seems you can't wait to stick the knife in - but maybe it is the only shot you have, or want to distract the attention away from 3 hour setup times?
 
Limited stability while folded has also always been a known factor with any folding tri, but this has never been hidden away as already discussed here. It is well covered and warned about in my 52 page Sailing Manual - does your design even have a Sailing Manual, or any safety warnings? I also have a website link in my Sailing Manual with more details and warnings of this possibility:
 
http://www.f-boat.com/foldedstability/
 
The solution is easy when required, and this is to simply unfold on the trailer first, and then launch at full width, or just the same as demountables do (but much more quickly). However, we prefer to minimize disruption at the ramp and always launch folded wherever possible, which is 99% of the time for most of my designs, with tens of thousands of problem free launchings. We can thus launch either way - what do you do when the ramp is very crowded and there's no room for an assembled wide demountable? On the other hand, if it has taken hours to rig, then by the time you are ready everybody else will be well gone :)
 
Ian Farrier
 
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As I said before, I think Ian has the Trailable folding thing all tied up. To me it doesn't matter as my paradigm is to have a racing boat that I can cruise (reefed and with very spartan accommodation) that I can conveniently keep on a mooring and demounting and trail occasionally to regattas. So the difference between 2 hours ( what it takes a very un practised me to launch a Farrier) and 4 hours (demounting) is not significant when I have just towed the boat for 16 hours. Darren, like me, keeps his boat on a mooring.
If you want to keep your boat in your driveway an F-boat is the way to go.
I agree that the 32 has yet to show its potential - still developing, tuning, learning the boat. I look forward to seeing them racing. I won't knock it yet.
To each his own, fit his own paradigm and his own budget. As Tony Considine said, one can get into Div 1 racing much more affordably by buying a second hand full on racer, especially if you don't want to keep it in your driveway.

#22 Ian Farrier

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:14 AM

 

 


How about we discuss it here

I
Valid points Ian but I think everyone in this thread already knew what you think is important. Semi related question, assuming you made the same amount of money designing and selling your current boats as opposed to occasionally designing all out race machines that won line honours which would you choose? 
 
The same as what I chose many years ago - good all round cruisers that are also reasonably fast. There is not much interest in all out racers, with little chance of commercial success, and 90% of sailors just want a boat that sails well, has good accommodation,can be easily trailered to different areas. and it all just works without too much effort required to go sailing.
 
 
Racers can be interesting and I'm tempted every now and then, but to do well, with good plans, it takes a lot of work with something like the F-32SR, for what are only limited numbers compared to cruising designs. However, once sorted, and in skilled hands, it could get interesting - time will tell. 
 
Ian Farrier
 
Farrier Marine
All good points Ian. How do you see the F-32SR, as a racing car (open wheeler) or a sports racing car (Le Mans prototype) or a road car optimised for racing (L/C Super 7)?

 

That's a hard one - not a minimal open wheeler like the Super Seven or Atom, but more like a road going Ferrari with all the creature comforts, and still able to mix it with many more dedicated racers, but not really a car for the inexperienced

 

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#23 SCANAS

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:22 AM



SIG45 = Maserati

AC72 = F1

Banque Pop 5 = class 1 Trophy Tuck

#24 Ian Farrier

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 07:31 AM

 

A racing Farrier is a bit like a Volvo sports car.Might be nice but not a Ferrari.

 
A more valid comparison would be a BMW M3 versus a Lotus/Caterham Super 7 or Ariel Atom.
 
One is very refined with creature comforts like four seats, air conditioning, electric windows etc, or all the attributes of a comfortable family car that also happens to be very fast. The others are faster again, but somewhat lacking in creature comforts and practicality:
 
http://www.arielatom.com
 
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Lotus_Seven
 
Ian Farrier
I don't like the Volvo/Ferrari analogy either.
Like the F-Boat = M3 but thing the all out racers are more like racing prototypes that you would not drive on the highway.

 

Actually both the Super 7 and Atom can be road legal, and there are many Lotus or Caterham Super Sevens being driven on the road, but not a good idea for the inexperienced.

 

I have caught a minimal Lotus 7 on the track in a four seater M3 with all the comforts, but a Super 7 or Caterham R300 would be a different matter.

 

Attached File  M3Ruapuna.jpg   165.44K   5 downloads

A roomy four seater with all the comforts, and very fast.

Even the whole family can come along.

But not as fast as the something like this (R300):

Attached File  Caterham_R300.jpg   109.36K   3 downloads

Which is not as comfortable or very practical for most.

No room for the family either

 

The bottom line is that there are many options for all sorts of tastes, and knocking one just because it may not be as fast as something more extreme is a little pointless. The more practical option can still be very fast relative to most.

 

Ian Farrier

 

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#25 Peter Hackett

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:12 AM

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

Crikey Darren, now you have the Anarchy Fever too! If you guys enjoy the three hour fun, how come you don't do it very often? Joel has certainly had enough of putting his Raider together in the paddock, we only see him once every two years.

Some of us like towing, sailing, and racing our slower div 2 boats, some of us enjoy the comfort of bridgedeck cats which then have to be sailed home and some of us are prepared to do the harder work for longer hours to enjoy a faster div 1 boat. No problems.

 

But while we are in Anarchy mode,

How long did the Chief take to put back together after it capsized the first time?

How long did the Chief take to put back together after it capsized the second time?



#26 NUDDY

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:45 PM

Super 7 was my dream car 45 years ago, or the comp Élan like Fred Gibson drove.
Best I got to was a 240z. These days I am really happy with my 'all out racer' that I can cruise, keep on a mooring and trail to places like Port Lincoln. For a club race 1pm start I can leave home at 12.30, walk to the dinghy, row out to the mooring, rig up and get to the start in time to cut the motor before the 5 min signal.

#27 Lighthouse

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 09:45 AM

SIG45 = Maserati

AC72 = F1

Banque Pop 5 = class 1 Trophy Tuck

 

The F1 is rather equivalent to the AC40 Extreme Sailing Series.

The AC72's aren't reliable enough and too expensive for a full year around the world racing circuit.



#28 SCANAS

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 12:13 PM


SIG45 = Maserati

AC72 = F1

Banque Pop 5 = class 1 Trophy Tuck

 
The F1 is rather equivalent to the AC40 Extreme Sailing Series.
The AC72's aren't reliable enough and too expensive for a full year around the world racing circuit.

Extreme 40 and AC45 are two different series.

#29 Lighthouse

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 06:42 PM

 


SIG45 = Maserati

AC72 = F1

Banque Pop 5 = class 1 Trophy Tuck

 
The F1 is rather equivalent to the AC40 Extreme Sailing Series.
The AC72's aren't reliable enough and too expensive for a full year around the world racing circuit.

Extreme 40 and AC45 are two different series.

 

Sure they are different. I did not mean the AC45 series. 

 

Come to think of it, I don't know why I often hear AC40 when one talks about

the Extreme Sailing Series. Probably not a correct term. 



#30 Indian Chief

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:45 AM

Attached File  INDIAN CHIEF CAPSIZE 007.jpg   39.53K   78 downloadsAttached File  INDIAN CHIEF CAPSIZE 014.jpg   23.16K   71 downloads

 


You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

Crikey Darren, now you have the Anarchy Fever too! If you guys enjoy the three hour fun, how come you don't do it very often? Joel has certainly had enough of putting his Raider together in the paddock, we only see him once every two years.

Some of us like towing, sailing, and racing our slower div 2 boats, some of us enjoy the comfort of bridgedeck cats which then have to be sailed home and some of us are prepared to do the harder work for longer hours to enjoy a faster div 1 boat. No problems.

 

But while we are in Anarchy mode,

How long did the Chief take to put back together after it capsized the first time?

How long did the Chief take to put back together after it capsized the second time?

The reason i hadn't been going to a lot of interstate regattas is i have a demanding business to run, plus until recently (for the Airlie trip) I didn't have a tow vehicle i was happy with to do the big ks. Now i'm set up with the right tow vehicle and now have more help in my business you'll probably see more of the red boat. We had so much fun at Airlie and now having a fantastic tow vehicle, we have already booked and committed to Pt Lincoln.

 

I cant speak on behalf of Joel, my personal opinion is he is very busy running a company and is more interested in other areas of his life at the moment. He seemed to enjoy sailing my boat and winning line honours and missing the OMR win by 1 point at last years Crowther regatta. i'm always keen to get Joel on my boat but he is very committed to his company since his dad left him to run it.

 

i agree there is a boat for everyone and we all have different needs. i guess i just have a strong opinion on what i believe and sometimes defend my opinions a bit too strongly for some who think very differently. I recognise as racers we all enjoy different areas that various designs offer. They are all great just some excite me more than others and thats only my personal needs and not for everyone else. One day my needs may change (again) and you might see me in an old cruising Trimaran, i love them, i just need time to use it. i've been there before many years ago with an old Piver cruising tri. However, for now its the red boat for me, its by far the best non off the beach multi out of the 7 i've had over the years. 

 

1st capsize is when i bought my boat from Tony C. At the time i owned Silent Running and when Tony offered me his boat i put SR on the market that day and sold it 3 days later. somethings are meant to be!!! My dad at 71 years old, having built a few multis agreed to take on the project of the rebuild. He took his time to put it back together in a paddock under a part tarp (no shed) near Pittwater. i did the weekend shifts. I bought my boat from Tony in May 08 and we relaunched it in July 08. Not a bad effort really. All up we had it back in the water 3 months after i bought it from Tony as an insurance right off. Works included were complete paint job, new front beam, new bow pole, broken mast section replaced, part new mast track, new running rigging, new mast rigging, new sails, new electrics and electronics, and all hardware replaced or refitted plus a few holes in the hulls from the rescue boat smashing it during the recovery. Not a bad effort really for a father and son job in a paddock. It was a great boat to start with which made it an easier project compared to staring with badly built boat.

 

2nd time When it capsized it was a solid 30 knot westerly, we had 2 reefs in the main and no 2 jib. Typical big westerly bullets were coming over the hills at the top end of Pittwater and at the time we went over wind gusts we recorded at 48 knots. I had motor sailed towards the start line and tacked and asked an experienced trimaran owner to take the helm whilst i put the motor away. As I was putting the motor away on the leeward side kneeling on the transom, next thing i looked up and the boat was coming over on me capsizing to windward. A windward capsize is normally pretty much unheard off. Asi ti was coming over I leant over the rear beam and threw the main off from the leeward side but it was all too late and over it went. I stepped of the stern and watched it go over all the way upside down from the water. I remember thinking how the hell did that happen! The guys on the windward side cockpit were sure they had released sheets, however when we righted the boat 30 mins later, sure enough the jib and main were both sheeted and cleated on, on the windward side. Technically we could have sailed that day once the water was bailed out of the port hull because the main hatch was not closed all the way, however the decision was made to take it to the club and hose all the salt water out of it. the mast had been dragging on the bottom as it was towed upside down to be righted backwards so i wanted to check it over. All electrics were stuffed and it had a small rope burn on the bow which only needed a bit of bog in it to repair. The main had a tear in it where one of the crew went through it. Later and after we sailed it once we then found the mast head area to have a small crack in the carbon which was no biggie and was taken out and repaired at McConaughys. Had the electronics and electrics not been stuffed there wouldn't have been an insurance claim. We righted the boat 30 mins after it happened using the local rescue guys and the RMYC club boat. The claim was under 25K in the end. The boat was back sailing as soon as it could be but we were at the hands of the insurance company and the repairers. i cant remember how long exactly but no more that a month or two. 



#31 rob d

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:35 AM

I would love some more info and/or pictures of how to right a cat with minimal damage. Over the transoms with the tow rope attached where?



#32 Indian Chief

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:08 AM

I would love some more info and/or pictures of how to right a cat with minimal damage. Over the transoms with the tow rope attached where?

Attach two separate lines each corner of the front beam. start towing backwards with two motor boats, one for each line, the sterns sink and hey presto over it comes. 



#33 NUDDY

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:33 AM

I would love some more info and/or pictures of how to right a cat with minimal damage. Over the transoms with the tow rope attached where?


Attach two separate lines each corner of the front beam. start towing backwards with two motor boats, one for each line, the sterns sink and hey presto over it comes. 

At last, another use for motor boats, in addition to starting and finishing yacht races.

#34 NUDDY

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:46 AM

attachicon.gifINDIAN CHIEF CAPSIZE 007.jpgattachicon.gifINDIAN CHIEF CAPSIZE 014.jpg

 

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

Crikey Darren, now you have the Anarchy Fever too! If you guys enjoy the three hour fun, how come you don't do it very often? Joel has certainly had enough of putting his Raider together in the paddock, we only see him once every two years.
Some of us like towing, sailing, and racing our slower div 2 boats, some of us enjoy the comfort of bridgedeck cats which then have to be sailed home and some of us are prepared to do the harder work for longer hours to enjoy a faster div 1 boat. No problems.
 
But while we are in Anarchy mode,
How long did the Chief take to put back together after it capsized the first time?
How long did the Chief take to put back together after it capsized the second time?
The reason i hadn't been going to a lot of interstate regattas is i have a demanding business to run, plus until recently (for the Airlie trip) I didn't have a tow vehicle i was happy with to do the big ks. Now i'm set up with the right tow vehicle and now have more help in my business you'll probably see more of the red boat. We had so much fun at Airlie and now having a fantastic tow vehicle, we have already booked and committed to Pt Lincoln.
 
I cant speak on behalf of Joel, my personal opinion is he is very busy running a company and is more interested in other areas of his life at the moment. He seemed to enjoy sailing my boat and winning line honours and missing the OMR win by 1 point at last years Crowther regatta. i'm always keen to get Joel on my boat but he is very committed to his company since his dad left him to run it.
 
i agree there is a boat for everyone and we all have different needs. i guess i just have a strong opinion on what i believe and sometimes defend my opinions a bit too strongly for some who think very differently. I recognise as racers we all enjoy different areas that various designs offer. They are all great just some excite me more than others and thats only my personal needs and not for everyone else. One day my needs may change (again) and you might see me in an old cruising Trimaran, i love them, i just need time to use it. i've been there before many years ago with an old Piver cruising tri. However, for now its the red boat for me, its by far the best non off the beach multi out of the 7 i've had over the years. 
 
1st capsize is when i bought my boat from Tony C. At the time i owned Silent Running and when Tony offered me his boat i put SR on the market that day and sold it 3 days later. somethings are meant to be!!! My dad at 71 years old, having built a few multis agreed to take on the project of the rebuild. He took his time to put it back together in a paddock under a part tarp (no shed) near Pittwater. i did the weekend shifts. I bought my boat from Tony in May 08 and we relaunched it in July 08. Not a bad effort really. All up we had it back in the water 3 months after i bought it from Tony as an insurance right off. Works included were complete paint job, new front beam, new bow pole, broken mast section replaced, part new mast track, new running rigging, new mast rigging, new sails, new electrics and electronics, and all hardware replaced or refitted plus a few holes in the hulls from the rescue boat smashing it during the recovery. Not a bad effort really for a father and son job in a paddock. It was a great boat to start with which made it an easier project compared to staring with badly built boat.
 
2nd time When it capsized it was a solid 30 knot westerly, we had 2 reefs in the main and no 2 jib. Typical big westerly bullets were coming over the hills at the top end of Pittwater and at the time we went over wind gusts we recorded at 48 knots. I had motor sailed towards the start line and tacked and asked an experienced trimaran owner to take the helm whilst i put the motor away. As I was putting the motor away on the leeward side kneeling on the transom, next thing i looked up and the boat was coming over on me capsizing to windward. A windward capsize is normally pretty much unheard off. Asi ti was coming over I leant over the rear beam and threw the main off from the leeward side but it was all too late and over it went. I stepped of the stern and watched it go over all the way upside down from the water. I remember thinking how the hell did that happen! The guys on the windward side cockpit were sure they had released sheets, however when we righted the boat 30 mins later, sure enough the jib and main were both sheeted and cleated on, on the windward side. Technically we could have sailed that day once the water was bailed out of the port hull because the main hatch was not closed all the way, however the decision was made to take it to the club and hose all the salt water out of it. the mast had been dragging on the bottom as it was towed upside down to be righted backwards so i wanted to check it over. All electrics were stuffed and it had a small rope burn on the bow which only needed a bit of bog in it to repair. The main had a tear in it where one of the crew went through it. Later and after we sailed it once we then found the mast head area to have a small crack in the carbon which was no biggie and was taken out and repaired at McConaughys. Had the electronics and electrics not been stuffed there wouldn't have been an insurance claim. We righted the boat 30 mins after it happened using the local rescue guys and the RMYC club boat. The claim was under 25K in the end. The boat was back sailing as soon as it could be but we were at the hands of the insurance company and the repairers. i cant remember how long exactly but no more that a month or two. 

I was worried about capsizing Two Tribes but your story has eased my mind considerably. Replacement cost of all the electrics and electronics would cost about $300 as long as I keep my phone and iPad in their waterproofs. Actually when I get my submersible VHF it will be down to about $100.

#35 Ian Farrier

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:21 AM

I would love some more info and/or pictures of how to right a cat with minimal damage. Over the transoms with the tow rope attached where?

 

Your designer or manufacturer really should be providing that sort of information, along with warnings about the dangers of capsize, how to avoid, and precautions that should be taken.

 

If not then you should be asking why not?

 

There are three pages that cover this in my Sailing Manual, and if your designer will not supply anything then you can download my manual from the f-boat forum:

 

http://groups.yahoo....ps/F-boat/files

 

You only have to be a member.

 

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#36 NUDDY

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:50 PM

I would love some more info and/or pictures of how to right a cat with minimal damage. Over the transoms with the tow rope attached where?

 
Your designer or manufacturer really should be providing that sort of information, along with warnings about the dangers of capsize, how to avoid, and precautions that should be taken.
 
If not then you should be asking why not?
 
There are three pages that cover this in my Sailing Manual, and if your designer will not supply anything then you can download my manual from the f-boat forum:
 
http://groups.yahoo....ps/F-boat/files
 
You only have to be a member.
 
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And membership is free. Great forum for FBoat owners and others.

#37 SCANAS

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:38 PM

What does everyone think about Carbon Vs Tin masts holding up in a capsize?

 

Tin will be cheaper to repair and hardier?

 

The unlikely event of a capsize doesn't negate the benefits of carbon?



#38 Y-Bar

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:55 PM

Been over once pitch pole drove into the back of a wave one pretty windy afternoon. Could not get assistance till the next morning.
Water was shallow enough 8m and we had a 14m mast, that the ally rotating mast dragged over the sea bed all knight about three miles by our reckoning, boat nearly but not fully inverted.
Power cat hooked lines onto both armas / float points and dragged back over sideways. Bailed out the starboard float removed the shredded kite, dropped checked and re-hoisted the main that was up and submerged all night. Sailed fifteen miles to the boat ramp. Damage was 1 trashed kite, imploded starboard float bow section. Repaired and repainted bow, good reason for new kite as old one was shot anyway. Lucky inverted angle did not submerse electrics.
Don't think it would have been the same result with a carbon mast. Much more clean up inside and electrics damage when fully inverted.

#39 carcrash

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 01:09 AM

I really enjoy racing F boats. Fast, fun, great party, no terror, reliable, fast, fun. Just so good in so many ways.

 

I really enjoy racing all sorts of boats. And sailing all sorts of boats.

 

I've raced and done well in a very wide spectrum over a lot of decades in oceans, lakes, long distance, around the buoys, fleet, match racing, one design, handicap, elapsed, tropics, high latitudes, heavy air, light air, dinghy, keel boat, planing, displacement, wave piercing, beach cats, carbon cats, leadmines, maxis, windsurfers, etc etc.

 

But all in all, I think the F boats are the most fun.



#40 oomummado

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:16 AM

What does everyone think about Carbon Vs Tin masts holding up in a capsize?

 

Tin will be cheaper to repair and hardier?

 

The unlikely event of a capsize doesn't negate the benefits of carbon?

Do you think your more likely to tip over with a big heavy soft tin rig........

Carbon mast for performance. Also much easier to repair composites than tin.

Tin mast for pretty much for most of the Div 2 fleet - low performance.



#41 SCANAS

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:53 AM

What does everyone think about Carbon Vs Tin masts holding up in a capsize?

 

Tin will be cheaper to repair and hardier?

 

The unlikely event of a capsize doesn't negate the benefits of carbon?

Do you think your more likely to tip over with a big heavy soft tin rig........

Carbon mast for performance. Also much easier to repair composites than tin.

Tin mast for pretty much for most of the Div 2 fleet - low performance.

 

 

I was more talking about the durability of both materials and the cost of repair in a capsize event.

 

ie, Carbon always breaks to the point of non repair???  or it holds up better than tin and costs less to repair???

 

I know about the performance gains when sailing I was just interested in the event of capsize.



#42 rantifarian

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:36 AM

Tin folds, and cannot be repaired to original strength and stiffness, sleeving is a shitty band aid that causes stress raisers.

Carbon can be repaired to closer to original strength and stiffness, although it wont be 100%.

 

Whether either will break really depends on how close to the edge your rig has been designed. A tin cruising stump could be used as a battering ram with no ill effects, but an engineered tin race rig will fold with little provocation. The same can be said for carbon, but there is much less chance of finding a carbon cruising stump



#43 eric e

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:40 AM

is "tin" the new ozzie code for aluminium alloy?



#44 SCANAS

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:41 AM

Yeah Mate.



#45 eric e

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:30 AM

thanks for that

 

steel masts do exist

 

http://www.metalsail...AST-DESIGN.html

 

9-If-you-click-on-this-photo-and-enlarge



#46 Goldfinger01

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:03 PM

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

 
Still can't resist the personal attacks I see, with little substance or facts to justify or back up your assertions. Both demountable (I also have one too) and folding trimarans are choices, with their own positive and negatives. So what's with the agro - things not going so well in the demountable world, or having trouble finding any worthwhile advantages to put forward? 
 
One F-32SR is also not going very well, even to where an older and much less powerful F-9R is faster at times. Obviously not setup or being sailed right yet, and most would realize that sometimes new boats can take a while to get up to speed. However, it seems you can't wait to stick the knife in - but maybe it is the only shot you have, or want to distract the attention away from 3 hour setup times?
 
Limited stability while folded has also always been a known factor with any folding tri, but this has never been hidden away as already discussed here. It is well covered and warned about in my 52 page Sailing Manual - does your design even have a Sailing Manual, or any safety warnings? I also have a website link in my Sailing Manual with more details and warnings of this possibility:
 
http://www.f-boat.com/foldedstability/
 
The solution is easy when required, and this is to simply unfold on the trailer first, and then launch at full width, or just the same as demountables do (but much more quickly). However, we prefer to minimize disruption at the ramp and always launch folded wherever possible, which is 99% of the time for most of my designs, with tens of thousands of problem free launchings. We can thus launch either way - what do you do when the ramp is very crowded and there's no room for an assembled wide demountable? On the other hand, if it has taken hours to rig, then by the time you are ready everybody else will be well gone :)
 
Ian Farrier
 
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You need help Ian. You contradict yourself just about every time you post a reply. Never seen anyone who is always as right as you are. Is there anything trimaran you didn't invent. Tell us that in spite of the AC result Aussies aren't the best multihull sailors in the world.

#47 n0f8r

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:17 PM

@goldfinger01 seriously? you wanna get into the Kiwi/Aussie thing? and I thought it was supposed to be the Kiwi's with the chip on their shoulder....  we are the smaller nation after all.

 

But you started it, so:

 

There are more New Zealand sailors on the Oracle Team USA crew than Australians - have a look at their website - (http://oracle-team-u...cascup.com/team) - their nationalities are listed, and I count 8 kiwis (including Kinley Fowler who lists NZ first in his nationalities) to 7 Australians.

 

If you think the fact that the skipper was Aussie trumps the fact that there are more Kiwi's - then I'll retort that Spithill's boss, the CEO of Oracle Team USA, is Sir Russell Coutts - the Kiwi bloke who's won more ACs than anyone, and who just bagged another.

 

Oh - and I suppose you've forgotten 1995? - "the boat, is turning into a banana" - http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8Yau9A7XDHs



#48 THOR

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:46 PM

 

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

 
Still can't resist the personal attacks I see, with little substance or facts to justify or back up your assertions. Both demountable (I also have one too) and folding trimarans are choices, with their own positive and negatives. So what's with the agro - things not going so well in the demountable world, or having trouble finding any worthwhile advantages to put forward? 
 
One F-32SR is also not going very well, even to where an older and much less powerful F-9R is faster at times. Obviously not setup or being sailed right yet, and most would realize that sometimes new boats can take a while to get up to speed. However, it seems you can't wait to stick the knife in - but maybe it is the only shot you have, or want to distract the attention away from 3 hour setup times?
 
Limited stability while folded has also always been a known factor with any folding tri, but this has never been hidden away as already discussed here. It is well covered and warned about in my 52 page Sailing Manual - does your design even have a Sailing Manual, or any safety warnings? I also have a website link in my Sailing Manual with more details and warnings of this possibility:
 
http://www.f-boat.com/foldedstability/
 
The solution is easy when required, and this is to simply unfold on the trailer first, and then launch at full width, or just the same as demountables do (but much more quickly). However, we prefer to minimize disruption at the ramp and always launch folded wherever possible, which is 99% of the time for most of my designs, with tens of thousands of problem free launchings. We can thus launch either way - what do you do when the ramp is very crowded and there's no room for an assembled wide demountable? On the other hand, if it has taken hours to rig, then by the time you are ready everybody else will be well gone :)
 
Ian Farrier
 
Farrier Marine
Designs That Work
You need help Ian. You contradict yourself just about every time you post a reply. Never seen anyone who is always as right as you are. Is there anything trimaran you didn't invent. Tell us that in spite of the AC result Aussies aren't the best multihull sailors in the world.

newb with 33 posts ..derrailing the thread, bitching about Ian ?



#49 Dense505crew

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:12 PM

There are more New Zealand sailors on the Oracle Team USA crew than Australians - have a look at their website - (http://oracle-team-u...cascup.com/team) - their nationalities are listed, and I count 8 kiwis (including Kinley Fowler who lists NZ first in his nationalities) to 7 Australians.

 

If you think the fact that the skipper was Aussie trumps the fact that there are more Kiwi's - then I'll retort that Spithill's boss, the CEO of Oracle Team USA, is Sir Russell Coutts - the Kiwi bloke who's won more ACs than anyone, and who just bagged another.

 

And next to Russell on that website is the real brains of the outfit, Aussie General Manager Grant Simmer, who was navigator on Australia II and has now managed how many cup winning teams?



#50 Lighthouse

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:13 PM

 

 

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

 
Still can't resist the personal attacks I see, with little substance or facts to justify or back up your assertions. Both demountable (I also have one too) and folding trimarans are choices, with their own positive and negatives. So what's with the agro - things not going so well in the demountable world, or having trouble finding any worthwhile advantages to put forward? 
 
One F-32SR is also not going very well, even to where an older and much less powerful F-9R is faster at times. Obviously not setup or being sailed right yet, and most would realize that sometimes new boats can take a while to get up to speed. However, it seems you can't wait to stick the knife in - but maybe it is the only shot you have, or want to distract the attention away from 3 hour setup times?
 
Limited stability while folded has also always been a known factor with any folding tri, but this has never been hidden away as already discussed here. It is well covered and warned about in my 52 page Sailing Manual - does your design even have a Sailing Manual, or any safety warnings? I also have a website link in my Sailing Manual with more details and warnings of this possibility:
 
http://www.f-boat.com/foldedstability/
 
The solution is easy when required, and this is to simply unfold on the trailer first, and then launch at full width, or just the same as demountables do (but much more quickly). However, we prefer to minimize disruption at the ramp and always launch folded wherever possible, which is 99% of the time for most of my designs, with tens of thousands of problem free launchings. We can thus launch either way - what do you do when the ramp is very crowded and there's no room for an assembled wide demountable? On the other hand, if it has taken hours to rig, then by the time you are ready everybody else will be well gone :)
 
Ian Farrier
 
Farrier Marine
Designs That Work
You need help Ian. You contradict yourself just about every time you post a reply. Never seen anyone who is always as right as you are. Is there anything trimaran you didn't invent. Tell us that in spite of the AC result Aussies aren't the best multihull sailors in the world.

newb with 33 posts ..derrailing the thread, bitching about Ian ?

 

LOL Thor what's that crap?

Judging post quality from post count? Come on...



#51 Ian Farrier

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:37 PM

 

You're like teasing a kid with a bag of lollies Ian....Although i refuse to get into time wasting banter with you because as proven before no matter how wrong you are to others, in your mind you are always right. what makes me have a chuckle about the crap you write is other designs may take a bit more time setting up, however here's one you might like to address. What about the new F32SR, Carbon Credits that not only got its ass kicked at Airlie but it also capsized coming into the ramp at Airlie Beach last month with its floats in the folded position. I believe the F22 did the same not long before or after the F32 went over. Now thats not such a friendly trailable design and would scare the shit out of anyone.  I'm sure you will have a great excuse for it but it happened and it didn't happen to my and others 3 hour put together faster Cats. :-)

 
Still can't resist the personal attacks I see, with little substance or facts to justify or back up your assertions. Both demountable (I also have one too) and folding trimarans are choices, with their own positive and negatives. So what's with the agro - things not going so well in the demountable world, or having trouble finding any worthwhile advantages to put forward? 
 
One F-32SR is also not going very well, even to where an older and much less powerful F-9R is faster at times. Obviously not setup or being sailed right yet, and most would realize that sometimes new boats can take a while to get up to speed. However, it seems you can't wait to stick the knife in - but maybe it is the only shot you have, or want to distract the attention away from 3 hour setup times?
 
Limited stability while folded has also always been a known factor with any folding tri, but this has never been hidden away as already discussed here. It is well covered and warned about in my 52 page Sailing Manual - does your design even have a Sailing Manual, or any safety warnings? I also have a website link in my Sailing Manual with more details and warnings of this possibility:
 
http://www.f-boat.com/foldedstability/
 
The solution is easy when required, and this is to simply unfold on the trailer first, and then launch at full width, or just the same as demountables do (but much more quickly). However, we prefer to minimize disruption at the ramp and always launch folded wherever possible, which is 99% of the time for most of my designs, with tens of thousands of problem free launchings. We can thus launch either way - what do you do when the ramp is very crowded and there's no room for an assembled wide demountable? On the other hand, if it has taken hours to rig, then by the time you are ready everybody else will be well gone :)
 
Ian Farrier
 
Farrier Marine
Designs That Work
You need help Ian. You contradict yourself just about every time you post a reply. Never seen anyone who is always as right as you are. Is there anything trimaran you didn't invent. Tell us that in spite of the AC result Aussies aren't the best multihull sailors in the world.

 

Eight days to formulate a response and that's the best you can do? Another personal attack with nothing of substance? Not a single fact or figure? Such pointless and insulting posts only reflect badly on the poster.

 

And what has the AC results got to do with this thread? 

 

Ian Farrier

 

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#52 Wess

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:41 PM

Well both OTUSA and ETNZ's boats were much faster than my F27 which you designed.

 

Gosh what a wanker you were back in what... 84??  Try harder next time.  :P



#53 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:49 PM


newb with 33 posts ..derrailing the thread, bitching about Ian ?

 
LOL Thor what's that crap?
Judging post quality from post count? Come on...
Lighthouse,

Just another typical self ritchous post by THOR, where he belittles others while offering nothing of substance himself.

***R. Thompson***

#54 Ian Farrier

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:08 AM

Well both OTUSA and ETNZ's boats were much faster than my F27 which you designed.

 

Gosh what a wanker you were back in what... 84??  Try harder next time.  :P

 

I am, I am, .....the F-27 took around 7 years from initial concept to launching, but the F-22 is taking even longer and with considerably more effort. But, darn it, will still not be even close to OTUSA or ETNZ, although it will make a better cruiser and be much faster to launch.

 

But at least the F-27 had curved lifting foils 20 years before they became the latest thing.... :)

 

Attached File  F-27withFoils1000.jpg   317.22K   22 downloads

1985 F-27

 

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#55 Keith

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:28 AM

I read some where that the F27 was built with epoxy, is that correct ??



#56 Ian Farrier

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 06:03 AM

I read some where that the F27 was built with epoxy, is that correct ??

 

The prototype was epoxy, as a 'one off' boat, but every subsequent boat was built from molds, initially all AME 4000 (acrylic modified epoxy) with NPG gelcoat. But then a more production type layup of AME 4000 against NPG gelcoat followed by an isopthalic polyester.  Beams were always an epoxy/vinylester.

 

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#57 Wess

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 12:56 PM

Well both OTUSA and ETNZ's boats were much faster than my F27 which you designed.

 

Gosh what a wanker you were back in what... 84??  Try harder next time.  :P

 

I am, I am, .....the F-27 took around 7 years from initial concept to launching, but the F-22 is taking even longer and with considerably more effort. But, darn it, will still not be even close to OTUSA or ETNZ, although it will make a better cruiser and be much faster to launch.

 

But at least the F-27 had curved lifting foils 20 years before they became the latest thing.... :)

 

attachicon.gifF-27withFoils1000.jpg

1985 F-27

 

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Slow down there partner...  lets not get carried away.

 

The F22 a better cruising boat than OTUSA or ETNZ??  No freaking way.

 

If given the option I am going cruising on OTUSA first (hey its got a little herbie and I need all the help I can get... plus Larry can afford a new one), ETNZ second, and the F22 last.  Sorry, but come on.  I may not make it back alive but I sure as hell would die with a smile on my face!!

 

Come on ma, lets take a sunset cruise.  Just bring your ski googles!!



#58 Wess

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:17 PM

Ian -

 

On a more serious note, if you were asked to take one of your existing designs and try to make it a full foiler (I get its not your typical design focus/approach but think of it as a thought experiment)...

 

  *  do you think you could do it,

  *  which design would you use as the platform,

  *  what type of foils would you use,

  *  estimate what the incremental cost be, and,

  *  do you think it would be faster or slower than the base platform in a ww/lw course in 10 knots of breeze and 2 foot chop?

 

Wess



#59 minimus

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:02 PM

Ian -

 

On a more serious note, if you were asked to take one of your existing designs and try to make it a full foiler (I get its not your typical design focus/approach but think of it as a thought experiment)...

 

  *  do you think you could do it,

  *  which design would you use as the platform,

  *  what type of foils would you use,

  *  estimate what the incremental cost be, and,

  *  do you think it would be faster or slower than the base platform in a ww/lw course in 10 knots of breeze and 2 foot chop?

 

Wess

What a stupid post!

you may as well ask Toyota to alter a corolla to compete in an F1 race



#60 Hobie

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 10:06 PM

Corsair 24 racing question:

 

I got a new-to-me Corsair 24 MKII this year and just got a spinnaker for it. The spinnaker is non roller furling so I'm wondering how people manage the launch and retrieval. The forward hatch looks too small and the companionway looks too far aft without the sliding top (like a J/24). Assuming the way to do this is off the leeward tramp is there a good spinn bag design to make the drops quick?



#61 Wess

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:15 PM

You got it right.  Any bag will do.  I got mine from Mack (in FL) and like it.  Cheap enough to just get two and rig one on each side.  Tried both the forward hatch and the companionway of my F27.  Neither worked well.

 

For the 24 the chute might be small enough that you could maybe use a retrieval line and tube as they do on the beach cats. I think (?) Steve Marsh of Finish Line might have rigged and tried something along those lines.  Give him a shout because the one bad thing about the bag system is that it takes some time to get the chute stuffed back into it and for that period you are a man down, crew wise.  If launching and retrieving on the port side (we like mexicans... less of a mess generally) that can be a bit of an issue at the leeward mark as everyone is high side and you can miss seeing a starboard tacker coming back at you.

Corsair 24 racing question:

 

I got a new-to-me Corsair 24 MKII this year and just got a spinnaker for it. The spinnaker is non roller furling so I'm wondering how people manage the launch and retrieval. The forward hatch looks too small and the companionway looks too far aft without the sliding top (like a J/24). Assuming the way to do this is off the leeward tramp is there a good spinn bag design to make the drops quick?



#62 PIL007

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:34 PM

This has now turned into a good ol fashion SA thread like the old days........Thanks Nuddy

Beer and Popcorn people...?



#63 Multihauler

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:35 AM

As I said before, I think Ian has the Trailable folding thing all tied up. To me it doesn't matter as my paradigm is to have a racing boat that I can cruise (reefed and with very spartan accommodation) that I can conveniently keep on a mooring and demounting and trail occasionally to regattas. So the difference between 2 hours ( what it takes a very un practised me to launch a Farrier) and 4 hours (demounting) is not significant when I have just towed the boat for 16 hours. Darren, like me, keeps his boat on a mooring.
If you want to keep your boat in your driveway an F-boat is the way to go.
I agree that the 32 has yet to show its potential - still developing, tuning, learning the boat. I look forward to seeing them racing. I won't knock it yet.
To each his own, fit his own paradigm and his own budget. As Tony Considine said, one can get into Div 1 racing much more affordably by buying a second hand full on racer, especially if you don't want to keep it in your driveway.

NUDDY,

 

I am a bit confused by you posts.  On one hand, you seem to be dissing the F-Boats as not "real racers".  However, on the other hand, you seem to be interested in promoting participation in multihull events down under.

 

Question: Would you be happier if fewer people purchased Ian's F-"Cruisers" and didn't enter these multihull events???

 

Cheers!!!

 

-MH



#64 vmg

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:16 AM

Like this; http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5inqQSZqWQc

Corsair 24 racing question:

 

I got a new-to-me Corsair 24 MKII this year and just got a spinnaker for it. The spinnaker is non roller furling so I'm wondering how people manage the launch and retrieval. The forward hatch looks too small and the companionway looks too far aft without the sliding top (like a J/24). Assuming the way to do this is off the leeward tramp is there a good spinn bag design to make the drops quick?



#65 SCANAS

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:23 AM


As I said before, I think Ian has the Trailable folding thing all tied up. To me it doesn't matter as my paradigm is to have a racing boat that I can cruise (reefed and with very spartan accommodation) that I can conveniently keep on a mooring and demounting and trail occasionally to regattas. So the difference between 2 hours ( what it takes a very un practised me to launch a Farrier) and 4 hours (demounting) is not significant when I have just towed the boat for 16 hours. Darren, like me, keeps his boat on a mooring.
If you want to keep your boat in your driveway an F-boat is the way to go.
I agree that the 32 has yet to show its potential - still developing, tuning, learning the boat. I look forward to seeing them racing. I won't knock it yet.
To each his own, fit his own paradigm and his own budget. As Tony Considine said, one can get into Div 1 racing much more affordably by buying a second hand full on racer, especially if you don't want to keep it in your driveway.

NUDDY,
 
I am a bit confused by you posts.  On one hand, you seem to be dissing the F-Boats as not "real racers".  However, on the other hand, you seem to be interested in promoting participation in multihull events down under.
 
Question: Would you be happier if fewer people purchased Ian's F-"Cruisers" and didn't enter these multihull events???
 
Cheers!!!
 
-MH

Pretty sure Nuddy has a Sprint 750 as well as the cat so he can't be that adverse to the idea.

#66 THOR

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:13 PM

as for the SPi on the 24

go onto the net.. grab the sheets in front of the capshrouds, pull them in and go back on the net ... now you pull the spi down while the halyard gets released. wrap, roll pull sitting on your knees, slowly going forward. Push the wrap you are more or less rolling in front of you in the bag, have the tack line released and pull the reat backwards and also in the bag.

Yeah it really helps to have two bags...

sounds more complicated than it is ....

 

best Thor



#67 Hobie

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:41 AM

Like this; http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5inqQSZqWQc

Corsair 24 racing question:

 

I got a new-to-me Corsair 24 MKII this year and just got a spinnaker for it. The spinnaker is non roller furling so I'm wondering how people manage the launch and retrieval. The forward hatch looks too small and the companionway looks too far aft without the sliding top (like a J/24). Assuming the way to do this is off the leeward tramp is there a good spinn bag design to make the drops quick?

Thanks for that. Jibing it inside the triangle always?



#68 THOR

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:01 PM

I am jibing inside .. but that might or might not be the correct way... just works for me



#69 NUDDY

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:10 PM

As I said before, I think Ian has the Trailable folding thing all tied up. To me it doesn't matter as my paradigm is to have a racing boat that I can cruise (reefed and with very spartan accommodation) that I can conveniently keep on a mooring and demounting and trail occasionally to regattas. So the difference between 2 hours ( what it takes a very un practised me to launch a Farrier) and 4 hours (demounting) is not significant when I have just towed the boat for 16 hours. Darren, like me, keeps his boat on a mooring.
If you want to keep your boat in your driveway an F-boat is the way to go.
I agree that the 32 has yet to show its potential - still developing, tuning, learning the boat. I look forward to seeing them racing. I won't knock it yet.
To each his own, fit his own paradigm and his own budget. As Tony Considine said, one can get into Div 1 racing much more affordably by buying a second hand full on racer, especially if you don't want to keep it in your driveway.

NUDDY,

 

I am a bit confused by you posts.  On one hand, you seem to be dissing the F-Boats as not "real racers".

Sorry if you are confused. Not "dissing", agreeing with Ian that his designs are cruisers that do really well in races and I always encourage anyone and everyone to race their multihull. All the more so when they have an F-Boat because they are guaranteed good racing. I don't see anything in any of my posts that discourages the racing of F-Boats.

 

 However, on the other hand, you seem to be interested in promoting participation in multihull events down under.

I certainly am, I do everything I can to promote participation in multihull events by all people with all types of multihulls.

 

Question: Would you be happier if fewer people purchased Ian's F-"Cruisers" and didn't enter these multihull events???

No No No on the contrary! I would be delighted if more people purchased F-Boats and entered multihull events.

My point has always been that different boats suit different people. Ian believes the best way to go sailing is to have a trailable boat and tow it to the water every time you want to sail. There are lots of people who agree with him and for them an F-Boat is ideal. Others like to have a trailable boat but keep it mostly on a mooring. For these people an F-Boat is very good but can be better if 'optimised' for storage on the mooring. Then there are others who prefer their boat optimised for racing and are prepared to compromise further towards ultimate performance and put up with less easy trailability.

I had an ocean racer cat that was not even demountable. I used to race it inshore and offshore and cruise it with the family for extended periods. When I decided that my offshore days were over I turned to a Corsair Sprint trimaran, not a true F-Boat but based on the F24 MkII, I raced and cruised it on the lake and even towed it down to Pittwater 3 times for the Lock Crowther Memorial Regatta. It was great to race and racing in these types is very close and exciting. after 3 years with the sprint I concluded that I was not  so much a 'tri person' as a 'cat person', although I do love racing on Big Bird - a Tri. So when Two Tribes came up at a good price I jumped at it. Now I find that perhaps my offshore days are not over. That is not  to say that F-Boats are not good offshore. Particularly the F-27 and up. The smaller ones you want to choose your weather.

 

Cheers!!!

 

-MH



#70 jetboy

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:57 PM

Tin folds, and cannot be repaired to original strength and stiffness, sleeving is a shitty band aid that causes stress raisers.

Carbon can be repaired to closer to original strength and stiffness, although it wont be 100%.

 

Whether either will break really depends on how close to the edge your rig has been designed. A tin cruising stump could be used as a battering ram with no ill effects, but an engineered tin race rig will fold with little provocation. The same can be said for carbon, but there is much less chance of finding a carbon cruising stump

It's often been said among engineers:

 

Anyone can build something that works.  It takes a good engineer (or naval architect in this case) to build something that barely works.



#71 PIL007

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:28 PM

Inside / Outside: Comes down more to the distance from the Spin tack to the Jib tack (or length of prodder). It's faster and more efficient to go inside but if the gap is small and the kite is big, problems can occur.

Note: It's important if jibing inside that sheets don't get eased too far and new sheet comes on at the right time. Or going outside that sheets are eased early and far enough.

Spin bag:  We used to a shock cord net permanently  trapped to both side nets and we'd just stuff it in randomly. Worked fine on big kites too.

Hope this helps.

 

Like this; http://www.youtube.c...h?v=5inqQSZqWQc

Corsair 24 racing question:

 

I got a new-to-me Corsair 24 MKII this year and just got a spinnaker for it. The spinnaker is non roller furling so I'm wondering how people manage the launch and retrieval. The forward hatch looks too small and the companionway looks too far aft without the sliding top (like a J/24). Assuming the way to do this is off the leeward tramp is there a good spinn bag design to make the drops quick?

Thanks for that. Jibing it inside the triangle always?



#72 Hobie

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 11:00 PM

Anyone have a good length for F24 spinn sheets?



#73 Peter Hackett

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:44 AM

The highest quality (and quantity) of general F-boat information and regular answers from the designer are best found at http://groups.yahoo....ups/F-boat/info . Most times you will find answers either from a forum search or in the files repository, as well as great photos of other owners' boats and projects. I believe this thread started in the middle of a debate about the merits of the other designs.

 

From one of your friendly F-boat forum moderators down in the country that supplied the talent to all of the fast AC boats. 



#74 THOR

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 04:28 PM

Hey Brian

just wondering, did You ever got that Polo Shirt, which Ian sponsort to all F Boat drivers in this years US Tri Nats ?

 

thor



#75 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:22 PM

.

here we have the redneck anti-farrier 30'cat owners visiting the theatre in their fashionable(?) Brown dinner jackets 

 

  http://www.youtube.c...h?v=14njUwJUg1I



#76 oreana

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 03:07 AM

Third time out on my 31-1D. Engaged in local around the buoys racing. Line honors and sailed to handicap in about 16 knots of wind. Top speed 19.7 knots. "Stuffed" the boat several times. Learned to be more smooth when turning from broad reach to downwind. Jib sheet line overwraps on the winches resulted in time spent in irons trying to sort it out. New lesson: anything at the mast will snag the jib sheets-going to remove the two unnecessary plastic cleats at the base of the mast. I had installed an aviation type quick release pin on the boom crank handle on the face of the mast- torn out and sent overboard (found the crank handle on the forward net, thank God). 18.7 knots closed hauled. I am still blown away by the speed. Only two people on the boat and it seemed very marginal. 3 or 4 would be better. I can't pull the traveler up all the way from the helm seat. Forward cockpit crew had to deal with jib sheets and traveler. Let the mast pretty much rotate to wherever it wanted. Did not bother with canting the mast. I am having a new rudder made, one thing I really can't do without is the ability to rotate the tiller up, the factory tiller and rudder head are one piece. Hard to see when approaching the dock, hard to move to the high side in a tack as there is only inches between the handle and the traveler. Also, I experienced a lot of rudder cavitation and ineffectiveness at top speeds. Kind of scary to lose the ability to steer at 16 knots and above.Did I say it was fast?   John S



#77 Tony

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 04:36 AM

I dont usually engage in debates with Ian Farrier and certainly won't involve myself in any of the crap that is probably going to follow this post. I'm not an avid reader of Sailing Anarchy but someone introduced a post about the RAW30 and I happened to spot the title of this topic after posting on that topic page.

I notice a picture of Consider Me Gone in these pages - that Farrier has previously used to rubbish my designs. I haven't read the post and not going to. I don't even know who posted it but I'm sure Mr Farrier will be behind it somewhere. The point being (that Farrier wanted to make) is that the boat was was not as fast and easy to get on the trailer as a Farrier design (although not all that difficult as I remember). The point Farrier conveniently avoids in the post (if it's the same theme as he was pushing all those years ago- early or mid 1990's) is that Consider Me gone was on the trailer, packed up, tied down and ready to roll before the first Farrier design crossed the finish line.

Iain, do your self a favour. Many people love your boats for a variety of reasons. Boats and sailing are for fun and for us designers it fulfils a creative urge. Take a breath of fresh air. Appreciate the positive things you've contributed and stop narking your competition. If your boats are so good they will speak for themselves. All the time and energy you put into rubbishing other designers could be injected into creating great new designs.

Several of my good friends are designers who compete directly with me. I would love to be able to walk up to and shake your hand with a big smile on my face one day. It's hard to imagine that right now. Change your vibe. You might change the world. 

Tony Grainger October 2013



#78 Bob's Your Uncle

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:02 AM

Third time out on my 31-1D. Engaged in local around the buoys racing.

-Jib sheet line overwraps on the winches resulted in time spent in irons trying to sort it out.
-Let the mast pretty much rotate to wherever it wanted.
-Did not bother with canting the mast.
-Only two people on the boat and it seemed very marginal. 3 or 4 would be better.

- Line honors and sailed to handicap in about 16 knots of wind.


Hi John,

Congrats on the new boat, sounds like a real blast!

After reading a couple of your comments above, I do have a questions/concerns regarding your statement that you "sailed to your handicap". PHRF handicaps are supposed to reward boats that are well prepared, and well sailed. Above you note several significant errors that were made, tools that were not used (mast chanting and additional crew), etc, however you still corrected out ahead of your competition. Don't you think that this shows that your rating is significantly off? Are these results fair to the folks who you compete against?

If it we're me, and I made those mistakes and knew that I didn't sail the boat optimally, I would be embarrassed.


I can't pull the traveler up all the way from the helm seat. Forward cockpit crew had to deal with jib sheets and traveler.



Skipper and crew position should be out on the nets, not in the cockpit!!! (see comments above).

Best Regards,

***Robert Thompson***

#79 oreana

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 03:42 PM

Robert,

You are right. I don't have the actual race results in yet. While we did screw up 3 of our races at some point, we did have a fourth race where we crossed the start line perfectly at speed and made all of the right moves. When pressed hard, my boat likes people out on the nets and as aft as possible. I did observe that the mast would rotate on it's own to a position that looked pretty good.

 

John S "Wicked"



#80 Ian Farrier

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:52 PM

I dont usually engage in debates with Ian Farrier and certainly won't involve myself in any of the crap that is probably going to follow this post. I'm not an avid reader of Sailing Anarchy but someone introduced a post about the RAW30 and I happened to spot the title of this topic after posting on that topic page

 

Well this is a bit of an outburst from nowhere - I thought things were going well in Xiamen? But I did check out that facility a year or so ago and the setup and negotiation tactics did make me feel a little uneasy. However, I'm sure you have a good iron clad agreement.

 


I notice a picture of Consider Me Gone in these pages - that Farrier has previously used to rubbish my designs. I haven't read the post and not going to. I don't even know who posted it but I'm sure Mr Farrier will be behind it somewhere. The point being (that Farrier wanted to make) is that the boat was was not as fast and easy to get on the trailer as a Farrier design (although not all that difficult as I remember). The point Farrier conveniently avoids in the post (if it's the same theme as he was pushing all those years ago- early or mid 1990's) is that Consider Me gone was on the trailer, packed up, tied down and ready to roll before the first Farrier design crossed the finish line.

 

The photo was taken during the 1991 Australian Trailertri Nationals, where I believe you were crewing on that boat, and didn't we beat you over the line in most races in the original small rig F-31/F-9A? You could pass us downwind with your high power to weight ratio and rotating mast, but we wound you back in and re-passed you on every windward beat to be first to the windward mark (and finish line). We in fact ended up second fastest overall to your ATL Composites (Riverside Oaks) design in that regatta. You were then named and given full credit for this in my Newsletter at the time, as per:

 
 
As I recall, when I took the photo most of the 35 or so Trailertris had already derigged and gone home. We had also just finished up derigging the F-31 which had been doing some 'after the event' sailing/demos, so did not get to the ramp until well after you. But it was still ready to go soon after and I then wandered around to see who was left, which was the four demountables still being 'demounted'. All well documented at the time:
 
 
Page 2, third paragraph down. You were definitely not, as you claim, on the trailer, packed up, tied down and ready to roll before the first Farrier designed crossed the finish line, as we had finished before you.  

 

Iain, do your self a favour. Many people love your boats for a variety of reasons. Boats and sailing are for fun and for us designers it fulfils a creative urge. Take a breath of fresh air. Appreciate the positive things you've contributed and stop narking your competition. If your boats are so good they will speak for themselves. All the time and energy you put into rubbishing other designers could be injected into creating great new designs.

 

 

I think the issue is more my designs being rubbished for being roomy cruisers, as some seem to think the only real multihulls are the impractical ones with no accommodation and huge rigs. Even this very topic starts with: 
 
"I have certainly been known to bag Farriers in my time." followed by a claim that "Farrier has been a bit behind the times, and I was late to square top mains" where f-boats were in fact one of the first to use them. Then choice comments from your supporters such as "I'll bet it's faster than farriers carbon crapper" which are insulting and completely unnecessary. Check all the posts to see who is doing the name calling and insults. I'm not one to hide under my desk when false and insulting claims are being made, so will shoot back, but I will stick to documented facts (as in this post), and true comparisons, not just abuse or name calling.
 

 

Several of my good friends are designers who compete directly with me. I would love to be able to walk up to and shake your hand with a big smile on my face one day. It's hard to imagine that right now. Change your vibe. 

 

 

Then how about being more friendly, and reining in your more vocal supporters. I don't recall seeing you at any of the social events at the above Australian Trailertri Nationals. You and your designs were made welcome at our Nationals, but you were not to be seen socially, apparently choosing to stay at a motel somewhere else. Lock Crowther was there, and happy to shake hands and socialize - we even had breakfast together while discussing mast design aspects. My door has always been open, and still is.
 
I also remember the time you invited yourself on the first F-25A at Fraser Island, barged your way down below, ignored everyone, including me, and then closely inspected the F-25A's beam bulkheads and folding system, before marching off again with not a word to anyone. Plenty of witnesses to this odd episode. Would have been happy to have shaken hands, had a chat, and discuss the various features etc. and design in general, and then maybe your first copies of my designs may have held together a bit better. I don't like it when any copy has a problem, as it is a problem with my folding system, even if only a copy, and we can all do without such problems.
 
Ian Farrier
 
Farrier Marine
Designs that work


#81 Ice Cat

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:33 PM

I've owned boats from both designers. I've spent time socially with both men. I've been on boats with both of them.

 

I respect their various approaches. Each has been successful and renowned.

 

Whilst I recognise that this is "anarchy", and anything goes, there are still underlying facts.

 

(I've loved each of my boats for various reasons. I currently own 6 - call me weird! )

 

No one designer has all the answers for everyone. And each designer believes in their product.

 

Ian has laid out the documented data from his past newsletters. Bit hard to argue with that now. And why the need.

 

Good place to put forward our individual opinions, but don't see the point in trying to cut someone else down. True believers from each side are not going to change their opinion - because it works for them.

 

So how about "civil anarchy" - about design parameters maybe - not personalities. It's obvious there's enough of us weirdos here without pointing it out!



#82 Wess

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

Wish I knew you to buy you a beer or 3.  Well said. 

 

Have not met Tony but have sailed some of his boats and they are an absolutely joy as are some of Ian's (I own one).  Different approaches and both deserve to get and give much respect.

 

Wish the trimaran class had more folks like you.

I've owned boats from both designers. I've spent time socially with both men. I've been on boats with both of them.

 

I respect their various approaches. Each has been successful and renowned.

 

Whilst I recognise that this is "anarchy", and anything goes, there are still underlying facts.

 

(I've loved each of my boats for various reasons. I currently own 6 - call me weird! )

 

No one designer has all the answers for everyone. And each designer believes in their product.

 

Ian has laid out the documented data from his past newsletters. Bit hard to argue with that now. And why the need.

 

Good place to put forward our individual opinions, but don't see the point in trying to cut someone else down. True believers from each side are not going to change their opinion - because it works for them.

 

So how about "civil anarchy" - about design parameters maybe - not personalities. It's obvious there's enough of us weirdos here without pointing it out!



#83 THOR

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:35 PM

hey Ice Cat ..run into me and the beer will be cold

 

thor



#84 HASYB

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:48 AM

Making a lot of sense there Ice Cat. I like that, thanks



#85 PIL007

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:11 PM

Right on Ice...........but civil anarchy..? That won't last.

It's a shame Lock's not here for this thread but knowing him there is no way he'd have entered in to an anarchy shit storm as it was just not his style.

In all seriousness, it's great to have both Tony and Ian here.  Calling Brendan Egan.........



#86 NUDDY

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:48 PM

Right on Ice...........but civil anarchy..? That won't last.
It's a shame Lock's not here for this thread but knowing him there is no way he'd have entered in to an anarchy shit storm as it was just not his style.
In all seriousness, it's great to have both Tony and Ian here.  Calling Brendan Egan.........


Not Brenden's style either.

#87 PIL007

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:27 AM

Right on Ice...........but civil anarchy..? That won't last.
It's a shame Lock's not here for this thread but knowing him there is no way he'd have entered in to an anarchy shit storm as it was just not his style.
In all seriousness, it's great to have both Tony and Ian here.  Calling Brendan Egan.........


Not Brenden's style either.

True



#88 ozmultis

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:18 PM

I respect Tony and Ian for what they have done and achieved.  I respect Tony's approach to discourse  slightly more than Ian's.  



#89 NUDDY

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:58 PM

I respect Tony and Ian for what they have done and achieved.  I respect Tony's approach to discourse  slightly more than Ian's.  

Let's talk about Farriers and racing, not designers personalities.



#90 NUDDY

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:28 AM

 

I have said that Ian designs cruising boats and he does a pretty good job of it. I would add that he does a very good job of designing and developing trailable cruising tris. Particularly based on his premise that one should keep the boat on the trailer and tow it to the water, rig and launch whenever one wants to go for a sail. I prefer to keep my boat in the water, on a mooring, and only occasionally trail to other pieces of water. Ians designs are quite good for that although optimised for his premise. I also think that Ians tris are quite good for racing, although not optimised for that. They are particularly competitive when raced under a quite accurate rating system such as OMR.

Correction, I should have said fat head instead of  square top. Ian persisted with fixed (non-rotating) masts and pin head sails long after most were using rotating masts and fat head sails. Even when he did go square top he described his as a pin head sail with the top cut off, IE no roach apart from the square top. Others developed the square top as an extreme variety of the desired elliptical shape fat head with plenty of roach before the square top.
Sailboards, Skiffs, NS14s, A class all had Square tops with roach before Ian came up with his no roach square top.
I should also qualify what I said about rotating masts and buoyant floats, that I was talking RACING. I did emphasis that Ian designs Cruising Trimarans that do very well in racing, not that he designs racing boats. Thus he designs with cruising in mind and generally does not compromise cruising ability for the sake of racing performance.
I started this thread to talk about Farriers and racing. I do understand that they are not designed as racing boats.


#91 eric e

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:47 AM

good to see the personal digs are out of the way now



#92 Ian Farrier

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:30 AM

 


 

Correction, I should have said fat head instead of  square top. Ian persisted with fixed (non-rotating) masts and pin head sails long after most were using rotating masts and fat head sails. Even when he did go square top he described his as a pin head sail with the top cut off, IE no roach apart from the square top. Others developed the square top as an extreme variety of the desired elliptical shape fat head with plenty of roach before the square top.

 

Sailboards, Skiffs, NS14s, A class all had Square tops with roach before Ian came up with his no roach square top.
I should also qualify what I said about rotating masts and buoyant floats, that I was talking RACING. I did emphasis that Ian designs Cruising Trimarans that do very well in racing, not that he designs racing boats. Thus he designs with cruising in mind and generally does not compromise cruising ability for the sake of racing performance.
I started this thread to talk about Farriers and racing. I do understand that they are not designed as racing boats.

 

All getting very complicated Paul and hard to see whatever the point is. I have always found actual real world results give a much clearer picture of what works and what doesn't:

 

April, 1990: The F-27 AQUATEC easily won the Australian Multihull Offshore Championships (AMOC), a series of 7 races, and AQUATEC is the first trailerable multihull to do this:   http://www.f-boat.co...3Newsletter.pdf    

 

Attached File  F-27Aquatecw.jpg   399.42K   13 downloads

Not too bad for a plain ol' fixed mast and pinhead main

 

April, 1992: The F-31 OSTAC TRIUMPH then won the next AMOC.  http://www.f-boat.co...tters/no49.html  - also not too bad for a short fixed mast and pinhead main, not to mention a cruising boat, and like the F-27, one with actual real ROOM inside

 

Not the fastest in the series, but certainly fast enough for most. My priority back then was to get good roomy practical boats into production, without any unnecessary complications. There was just no need for a rotating mast back at that time as shown by the race results, and I still preferred the easy rigging of the fixed mast. My designs are fun roomy cruisers after all, which just happen to be fast, plus being easy/quick to rig was always high on my priority list.

 

A rotating mast is just more difficult to raise or lower, and adds around 5 - 10 minutes to rigging up time, and I'm just not a big fan of spending any more time than absolutely necessary on the ramp. However, I decided to start using rotating masts for new designs in 1991, but it was not until the first F-33 in 2002 that I considered I had a rotating mast that was almost as easy to raise as the F-27's fixed mast.

 

Otherwise, those fat head mains were a disaster as far as I could see, just sail area for the sake of more sail area, and usually to try and make an inefficient boat or crew look faster. Some needed the extra sail area some did not, and now it is interesting to see the trend towards the high aspect square top with little or no roach, just as I have always preferred. Those big ugly roaches were always a mistake, and inefficient. Ever see a glider with fat wings?

 

I also got a call (back in 2002 or 2004) from the owner of the above F-31 who said his boat would not sail any more under main only. So took a sail while in Australia, and found he had fitted one of those fat head roachy mains. Completely ruined the handling under main only, while making it much more prone to nose diving. Not really a desired result to my mind, the cost being far too high. It was no longer the easy to handle all round boat that I prefer.

 

Ian Farrier

 

Farrier Marine

Designs that work



#93 NUDDY

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:21 PM

Aren't we just saying the same thing?

I wrote:

I have certainly been known to bag Farriers in my time. However the first AMOC I did (1990) was won by the F27 (with Joel Berg on board and doing a lot of the steering). When the F24 MkII first hit Geoff Berg was winning everything he entered. If we look at the history of inshore racing in Aust I think we will find a lot of Farriers in the results.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have said that Ian designs cruising boats and he does a pretty good job of it. I would add that he does a very good job of designing and developing trailable cruising tris.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I also think that Ians tris are quite good for racing, although not optimised for that. They are particularly competitive when raced under a quite accurate rating system such as OMR.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Farriers are a great compromise if you want to cruise and race.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Multihauler: I am a bit confused by you posts.  On one hand, you seem to be dissing the F-Boats as not "real racers".

Nuddy: Sorry if you are confused. Not "dissing", agreeing with Ian that his designs are cruisers that do really well in races and I always encourage anyone and everyone to race their multihull. All the more so when they have an F-Boat because they are guaranteed good racing. I don't see anything in any of my posts that discourages the racing of F-Boats.

 

Multihauler: Question: Would you be happier if fewer people purchased Ian's F-"Cruisers" and didn't enter these multihull events???

Nuddy: No No No on the contrary! I would be delighted if more people purchased F-Boats and entered multihull events.

My point has always been that different boats suit different people.

- - - - - - - - - -

 I did emphasise that Ian designs Cruising Trimarans that do very well in racing, not that he designs racing boats. Thus he designs with cruising in mind and generally does not compromise cruising ability for the sake of racing performance.

- - - - - - - - - -

Ian Wrote:

April, 1990: The F-27 AQUATEC easily won the Australian Multihull Offshore Championships (AMOC)

- - - - - - - - - - -

- good all round cruisers that are also reasonably fast. There is not much interest in all out racers, with little chance of commercial success, and 90% of sailors just want a boat that sails well, has good accommodation, can be easily trailered to different areas.

- - - - - - - - -

 My priority back then was to get good roomy practical boats into production, without any unnecessary complications.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I still preferred the easy rigging of the fixed mast. My designs are fun roomy cruisers after all, which just happen to be fast, plus being easy/quick to rig was always high on my priority list.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

It is much harder to provide room and easy trailerability as well, or a practical boat with real advantages and features that appeal to the majority of buyers.



#94 Solarbri

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:15 PM

This is all starting to sound a bit like "Who's on first."



#95 NUDDY

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:27 AM

"All getting very complicated Paul and hard to see whatever the point is."

 

My point is that Farrier trailable trimarans are and always have been, designed to suit Ian's perception (usually correct) of the market. This means the owner who wants a fast, comfortable, easily trailable, easy to rig, easy to sail, easy to store Trimaran that he/she can keep in the driveway or garage or backyard.

Ian Makes them as fast as practical without compromise of safety or cruising amenity or any of the above features.

To criticise Ian for any the above is to miss the point.

For example to criticise over the boomless main is just silly, whether it is faster or slower is irellevent. Ian has not gone that way for racing performance. He has gone that way for all of those above reasons. It will enhance comfort, trailability, ease of rigging, safety, ease of sailing ease of storage, cruising amenity. It may be faster, we shall see when we have similar boats to compare. If it is faster it will only be marginally so and if it is slower again marginal. Not enough difference to negate the advantages above.

Now the point of this thread was to discuss how  well Farriers perform in racing. IMO they perform well above expectations considering the design brief.

I have bagged them in the past from an all out racer's point of view for just the sort of priorities that Ian has set for his design brief.

I have different requirements to Ians market, which is why I would have a boom. I also prefer cats which is why My tri is on the market and I bought a cat.

But back to the point. I said " If we look at the history of inshore racing in Aust I think we will find a lot of Farriers in the results. Ian designs cruising boats and he does a pretty good job of it. I would add that he does a very good job of designing and developing trailable cruising tris. I also think that Ians tris are quite good for racing, although not optimised for that. They are particularly competitive when raced under a quite accurate rating system such as OMR. Farriers are a great compromise if you want to cruise and race."

I will now add: If you only want to race and you want to go faster than a Farrier then there are dedicated racing only multihulls available and racer/cruiser multihulls available that are compromised more towards speed than towards all those attributes I mentioned. If you are typical of Ian's market then a Farrier will be perfect for you.

Having made my point (I hope) perhaps we can stop talking personalities and sensibly discuss Farriers and Racing. I know it is possible, even on SA.



#96 Sarimanok

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:29 AM

Farrier F-32 allowed to race with the big boys at the start of the Armen race 2013 .

 

Attached File  Sari1.jpg   738.24K   121 downloads

 

 

(We should have put that reef in before the start  :wacko: )



#97 Corley_

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:23 AM

Farrier F-32 allowed to race with the big boys at the start of the Armen race 2013 .

 

attachicon.gifSari1.jpg

 

 

(We should have put that reef in before the start  :wacko: )

That's very cool :)



#98 Multihauler

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:54 AM

Farrier F-32 allowed to race with the big boys at the start of the Armen race 2013 .
 
attachicon.gifSari1.jpg
 
 
(We should have put that reef in before the start  :wacko: )


Hey, what's that Farrier "cruising boat" doing on the line with all those "all-out racers"??? ;)

Cheers!!!

-MH

#99 redreuben

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:55 AM

Nuddy, just an observation, Farrier is the benchmark for cruiser racer and yes there are dedicated racers, but swing the other way to pure cruisers and there is nothing ! You are left with the Searunners, Pivers, Horstmans and Cross boats of decades past.

A definite niche for a budding designer.

RR



#100 Keith

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:06 AM

That's a great shot of your F32.......... ;) 






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