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More Rumored Problems For Oracle Coming Soon?


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#1 Boomslangnz

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 07:47 AM

Word coming out of San Fran is a certain Oracle member who's career has been left in ruins is going to come out with the full truth regarding the original cheating saga and also about the sudden Oracle turnaround in speed. Sounds like ETNZ know about a lot of all of it but are playing cool for now to not seem like bad sports. I'm listening to his interviews right now with some people 'in the know' and they are all hearing the same rumors.

 

592178_203262656377121_978195114_q.jpg

There's some serious rumours coming out of San Fran that something big is going to come out around Oracle and the pre regatta penalty.. and the improvements made to the boat. The rumour mill is in over drive.. watch this space.... bloody interesting talking to several parties this avo about it.

 



#2 DA-WOODY

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    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 27 September 2013 - 07:57 AM

Word coming out of San Fran is a certain Oracle member who's career has been left in ruins is going to come out with the full truth regarding the original cheating saga and also about the sudden Oracle turnaround in speed. Sounds like ETNZ know about a lot of all of it but are playing cool for now to not seem like bad sports. I'm listening to his interviews right now with some people 'in the know' and they are all hearing the same rumors.

 

592178_203262656377121_978195114_q.jpg

There's some serious rumours coming out of San Fran that something big is going to come out around Oracle and the pre regatta penalty.. and the improvements made to the boat. The rumour mill is in over drive.. watch this space.... bloody interesting talking to several parties this avo about it.

 

And he tried to be Sooooooooooo Friendly

 

why don't they get it !!

 

phobic bastards  :o  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:



#3 Sailbydate

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:01 AM

Woohoo...another AC scandal. 

 

We can't beat 'em on the water. Never mind, we can smear 'em with slander. 

 

Pathetic.



#4 Boomslangnz

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:03 AM

lol relax...It's just a rumor. Don't shoot the messenger!!



#5 Supervox

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:19 AM

Woohoo...another AC scandal. 

 

We can't beat 'em on the water. Never mind, we can smear 'em with slander. 

 

Pathetic.

And of course no American (Individual or Team) has tried that before have they?

 

Oh wait ...



#6 jaysper

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:28 AM

*yawn*

There has been enough genuine shit in this AC without fabricating stuff.

Veitch is a moron anywho



#7 Ex-yachtie

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:16 AM

Whilst this would be all sorts of fun, I can't imagine anyone would think the best way to resurrect their sailing career would be to take on or piss off Larry Ellison.



#8 chic014

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:35 AM

http://www.3news.co....9/Default.aspx?

#9 Presuming Ed

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:37 AM

Well, if you've been thrown under a bus and your only future sailing career is as the skipper of a cruising boat, you might try and take a few with you as you get thrown to the wolves. [/Mixing metaphors]



#10 winchfodder

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:43 AM

SuggestionLE will make a deal?

 

http://www.scoop.co....rimming-mod.htm



#11 pusslicker

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:48 AM

The world's most gracious losers trying to win it in court again?



#12 kenergy

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:53 AM


The world's most gracious losers trying to win it in court again?


Well I hope not, but its hardly unheard of in AC. Im sure you oracle fans understand that. Kettle - Pot

#13 scratch01

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:57 AM

NZ should keep there money to build a new boat for the next Cup instead of fabulating!!!



#14 Landlockedlubber

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:59 AM

The world's most gracious losers trying to win it in court again?


Haters gotta hate.
Losers gotta lose.
Cheaters gotta cheat.

What is new under the sun?

Would a court case reveal more of Herbie so all teams will be on the same footing next time?
Should the new rules absolutely preclude anything non-human/mechanical so that smart software can not outsmart less smart MCs?

#15 DevsNzL

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:08 AM

Well we know why they were able to foil on a whim, lets face it if it was all manual Oracle would not be the winners.  But thats the beauty of the Americas Cup you going to push the envelope find the loopholes and use it to your advantage.  I think it should be rule illegal for the next AC.



#16 WhyKnot

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:14 AM

When is the movie coming out?

Herbie goes to San Francisco.

Someone please post a cartoon of Herbie the love bug trimming Oracles foils.



#17 jaysper

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:14 AM

Well we know why they were able to foil on a whim, lets face it if it was all manual Oracle would not be the winners.  But thats the beauty of the Americas Cup you going to push the envelope find the loopholes and use it to your advantage.  I think it should be rule illegal for the next AC.

 

This reminds me of what happened post '87.

Supposedly the ONLY way that S&S could beat KZ7 was to have cheated.

 

Don't get me wrong, if OR have cheated then they should be nailed to the wall (again), its just that I doubt this is the case.

 

With regards to "Herbie", this doesn't seem like sailing to me and so I hope it is ditched for the next cycle.



#18 pusslicker

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:16 AM


The world's most gracious losers trying to win it in court again?


Well I hope not, but its hardly unheard of in AC. Im sure you oracle fans understand that. Kettle - Pot

I missed that I guess. I thought Or won it on the water? Challenge upheld in court, raced and won on the water?



#19 SailBlueH2O

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:20 AM

Oracle had electromagnetic paint that they energized when heading towards  the Golden Gate Bridge.....well thats the way it looked to me....



#20 jaysper

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:23 AM

Oracle had electromagnetic paint that they energized when heading towards  the Golden Gate Bridge.....well thats the way it looked to me....

 

Nah, caterpillar drive out of "The hunt for Red Oktober".

 

Thats why peeps thought they could hear whales humping during the race  ^_^



#21 strider470

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:24 AM

I was missing this pathos :-)

#22 kenergy

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:24 AM



The world's most gracious losers trying to win it in court again?

Well I hope not, but its hardly unheard of in AC. Im sure you oracle fans understand that. Kettle - Pot
I missed that I guess. I thought Or won it on the water? Challenge upheld in court, raced and won on the water?
So its ok when you guys go to court but not anyone else?
I hope this stays out of court, or won it lets move on.

#23 Boomslangnz

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:37 AM

I know many of you roll your eyes at things like this. But let's just think for a moment that Maybe ETNZ are right and Oracle's foil system is illegal. Are ETNZ meant to just do nothing? Call them sore losers all you want as currently they aren't the ones who were recently found to be cheating and can't seem to handle losing at all...do whatever it takes perhaps?

 

Rumors are rumors at this stage and I guess time will answer all this stuff.



#24 imnotasailer

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:42 AM

I hope they fight it. Hopefully it will explain how this SAS realy works so those of us who arnt aero engineers can understand it. Looks so odd that a sailing boat can be so far off the pace and in less than a week be unbeatable.

Kind of like a boat on steroids.

Remember Ostapchuk.

Dont forget Oracal have been seen a cheaters in the eyes if the law. Docked two points, fined and team members expelled from the competition.

Something dosnt look right.

#25 Glenn

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:48 AM

Veitch hey, he knows a bit about sailing...not as much on how to bash your girlfriend.

..looser

#26 Westie82

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:52 AM

Veitch hey, he knows a bit about sailing...not as much on how to bash your girlfriend.

..looser

Ahhh Glenn - sad man. Full credit to Veitch, he screwed up but that man has re-built himself and showed he is human.

 

End of the day, at least he's trying to get the stories and doing some digging. Let's see if he's on the pulse here.



#27 flojo

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:53 AM

Well we know why they were able to foil on a whim, lets face it if it was all manual Oracle would not be the winners.  But thats the beauty of the Americas Cup you going to push the envelope find the loopholes and use it to your advantage.  I think it should be rule illegal for the next AC.

Jupp. Especially if the finder of the loopholes is the same as the author of those ;-)



#28 Westie82

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:57 AM

Anyone make sense of this?

 

This is from Jason : very interesting .. This will help you all understand why there are so many rumors coming out of San Fran
-------

OK .. Once a cheat always a cheat .. i can guess who is about to spill the beans ... AC45 cheating scandal remember that ? Found that they had placed weight into the kingpin which results in putting weight forward hence adding center of gravity .. Sound familiar .. So when they said they dont know about the AC45 and that Dirk guy took the blame it was a smokescreen. It was a trail to see if it was viable and working which they refined into the AC72 with a hydraulic ballast system . So they Knew exactly what they were doing with the AC45 and to say that a wing trimmer was to blame was a load of shit.. Someone HIGH up authorized it otherwise why develop and refine a much more advanced version for the AC72. they just refined it and learnt to sail it better ... Think about it makes total sence



#29 imnotasailer

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:06 AM

Veitch hey, he knows a bit about sailing...not as much on how to bash your girlfriend.
..looser

Ahhh Glenn - sad man. Full credit to Veitch, he screwed up but that man has re-built himself and showed he is human.
 
End of the day, at least he's trying to get the stories and doing some digging. Let's see if he's on the pulse here.

Did he bash her though? Or did he push some physio ex who then fell down the stairs.
We have all had at least one mental bitch in our lifes

#30 marlowe

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:09 AM

.........

 

 
There's some serious rumours coming out of San Fran that something big is going to come out around Oracle and the pre regatta penalty.. and the improvements made to the boat. The rumour mill is in over drive.. watch this space.... bloody interesting talking to several parties this avo about it.

 

So it's a rumour, built on a rumour, built on a rumour ......

 

"OR used illegal SAS Herbie" > "OR insider to spill beans on this and truth about leadgate" > "ETNZ will take this to court"

 

Is that what makes it a SERIOUS rumour?  :wacko:



#31 Just a Skosh

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:36 AM

I think it was Snaerk who explained how he thought the system worked.  It's not electronic at all, it just uses a hydraulic reservoir to adjust the foils based on wave conditions.  Basically, it's a feedback loop with the feedback coming from the forces on the foils, then the hydraulics pushing them to where they need to be.  Doesn't sound illegal to me...  Just a clever mechanical engineering design.



#32 minimumfuss

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:00 PM

I recall James Spithill saying after an earlier race in the match that a major reason they had lost that day was "PROBLEMS WITH OUR SOFTWARE".

 

What software would be so essential to racing the boat? RD used a handheld compass to work out laylines at one stage and still got round the course just fine. Nav software isn't essential to get round a 5 mile course. Mechanical devices don't rely on software.

 

Non automated foiling. Hmm. Veitchy was pretty adamant today there is another "sailor x" out there with a handful of slippery beans. Beware disgruntled employees though.

 

May not be ETNZ that lodges proceedings. There are other competitors and officials out there that would take a dim view of further illegal mods.

 

It sounds like this is a big grey area that wasn't really anticipated, and defined explicitly in the rules, just like time limits, wind limits, safety factors, cost, and a bunch of other things when written as it was all new. If its legal, good on them. If not, well, the blowback will be far worse than the AC45 nonsense.

 

Sailings greatest spectacle will be ruined, I hope not for the AC's sake.



#33 insider

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:04 PM

I think it was Snaerk who explained speculated how he thought the system worked.  It's not electronic at all, it just uses a hydraulic reservoir to adjust the foils based on wave conditions.  Basically, it's a feedback loop with the feedback coming from the forces on the foils, then the hydraulics pushing them to where they need to be.  Doesn't sound illegal to me...  Just a clever mechanical engineering design.

Corrected that for you. Although I happen to agree with him.

 

Seriously. The measurers allowed it. No doubt that it was a key area of focus for them. And when submitting for another cert they have to tell the measurers what they have done. 

 

This is a bullshit after the fact load of shit which is filling the void of news after the event. 



#34 insider

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:06 PM

I recall James Spithill saying after an earlier race in the match that a major reason they had lost that day was "PROBLEMS WITH OUR SOFTWARE".

 

What software would be so essential to racing the boat? RD used a handheld compass to work out laylines at one stage and still got round the course just fine. Nav software isn't essential to get round a 5 mile course. Mechanical devices don't rely on software.

He was talking about the software that calculates and shows his time on distance to the line. The same thing that ETNZ would have been running.



#35 SimonN

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:22 PM

On face value, this looks remarkably like bullshit. ETNZ are bound by the protocol. The first stop would be to take it to the IJ and following a ruling from the IJ, they are then bound by that and have agreed as a condition of entering that they will not go to court.

 

The issue is pretty simple. The MC declared the system being used by OR as rule compliant. ETNZ attempted to challenge that ruling and screwed up by failing to submit it in time. However, in a move to totally clear the air, the MC stated that the ETNZ motion in the rules would not have succeeded. Therefore, there seems little chance of the IJ changing this ruling, not least because ETNZ has failed to act in a timely manner.

 

This leaves the possibility that ETNZ has come into information that proves that OR has used a system that is illegal and that they have been dishonest to the MC when submitting their boat for measurement. I find this unlikely, because the boat has been measured so often. Even if the MC isn't an expert in the technology involved, they should, at very least, have schematics of the system so that if something else is being run, they should be able to spot it. having said that, if ETNZ does have evidence of wrongdoing, they need to take it to the IJ in a timely manner. The fact we haven't heard of a protest suggests this is fiction, because if ETNZ knows something and is delaying in acting, they are s=risking losing their opportunity, which makes no sense.

 

Gut feel is that this is all about nothing.



#36 Lat35sowth

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:25 PM

Dirks just been hired by ETNZ in exchange for the full story.



#37 WhiteLightnin'

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:48 PM

So, let me get this straight. NZL is going to court (in violation of the Protocol) to complain about a system that the MC ruled legal? WTF? Seriously?

 

Exploiting the rules is what the AC is all about. Its why NZL was a ble to build a foiler ahead of everyone else. OTUSA found a loophole and exploited it.

 

The measurement committee ruled it legal.

 

If this goes to court, outside of there being new details, then NZL will have lost any and all respect that they earned in being the awesome competitiors they were.

 

WL



#38 dogwatch

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:01 PM

So, let me get this straight. NZL is going to court (in violation of the Protocol) to complain about a system that the MC ruled legal? WTF? Seriously?

 

Don't get too aerated until there is actual information from a reliable source. On the face of it, there either needs to be a whole lot more to this story or it's nonsense.



#39 Hippie

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:07 PM

According to Jimmy in nearly every press conference, he continually stated that the shore team never stop working on the boat. How long does the measurement process take for issuing a certificate? Are they only measuring what one team says has been changed? I word it that way because I am more curious about the measurement process for AC72. I am sure it's the same measurement process for both NZ and OR.

 

I hate this kind of thing, especially for NZ. As an American I am disappointed in doing things of questionable legality on a yacht carrying an American flag. 

 

"The only way if you adhere to conventional wisdom, and do everything else that everyone else does – you’re going to lose." - Larry Ellison



#40 linaszuk

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:19 PM

YAY!!!! let's start the AC34 legal fuck-fest.  Nothing more exciting than a bunch of sober sailor arguing in a courtroom over why they lost.  This is probably being done to keep SA occupied/amused.

 

If ETNZ wins, the cup goes back to NZ.  The racing goes back to "traditional mono-hull" snooze-fest.  I'll watch and I'll bitch and I'll drink rum by the gallon to make it fun...... it just won't be.

 

4 months to ice-boat season..... woot!  5 knot breeze = 40 knots boatspeed - no tide - no brakes - no shit



#41 MauganNacra20

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:22 PM

Why does Oracle have problems?  They just won the cup and nothing that a bunch of armchair quarterbacks or lawyers can do will change that.



#42 Kia Ora

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:22 PM

This from Gladrags:

The Racing Rules on the matter are very clear RRS42 Propulsion states: A yacht shall compete only by using the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the wing, sails, rudders, daggerboards and hulls, and perform other acts of seamanship.

 

Anyone know about this clause relative to the OR system?

 

If "if" OR are making adjustments in another way, it may well raise questions.

If not, TNZ are skating on pretty thin ice.

The way I see it - should TNZ go the legal route, they would have pretty cause to do so. They would not "jump" into something like this for soar grapes.

If they don't have good cause, guess we can consider these rumors to be just that. Rumours.

 

I would not like to see TNZ go the legal way, unless they had a watertight case and they can prove wrong doing.

 

Non of us really know if there is amy smoke with this rumour, but if there is smoke, there may well be fire.

Worst part for OR is the AC45 shenanigans. Doesn't bode too well for them.

Leopards don't change their spots, but where is the bloody leopard? Out the door, or still wandering around the camp.



#43 pjh

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:32 PM

A yachting expert named Peter Lester told a New Zealand TV network that Oracle was using a computer-automated system to get its boat up on the foils. He said skipper Jimmy Spithill merely had to press a button to put the boat on foils, thanks to something called the "stability-assistance system."

"That's complete baloney," Coutts said. "We weren't allowed to be automated. The measurers never would have allowed that." He added with a chuckle, "We were quite happy to have Team New Zealand believe that."

http://www.sfgate.co...ack-4847578.php



#44 nav

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:35 PM

I think it was Snaerk who explained speculated how he thought the system worked.  It's not electronic at all, it just uses a hydraulic reservoir to adjust the foils based on wave conditions.  Basically, it's a feedback loop with the feedback coming from the forces on the foils, then the hydraulics pushing them to where they need to be.  Doesn't sound illegal to me...  Just a clever mechanical engineering design.

Corrected that for you. Although I happen to agree with him.

 

Seriously. The measurers allowed it. No doubt that it was a key area of focus for them. And when submitting for another cert they have to tell the measurers what they have done. 

 

This is a bullshit after the fact load of shit which is filling the void of news after the event. 

 

The measures did a less than perfect job, so the fact they issued a new measurement certificate does not make it automatically legal IMO.

 

Any rule, more especially a new one, needs interpretation to fix any lack of clarity in the original writing. This ^ aspect of the rule has not been given a hearing, with full details revealed, before the IJ. And before you say 'team secrets', just remember what the teams were asked to reveal in the interests of 'safety'!

 


 



#45 Estevo

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:38 PM

Seems that except for that huge dip at the start of the last race the difference between the first half of the series and the last were substantial; they tweaked something.....and then forgot to plug it in....



#46 Ex-yachtie

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:48 PM

I think it was Snaerk who explained how he thought the system worked.

 

I can't actually imagine that.....  Did he use whole words?



#47 Ex-yachtie

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:54 PM

Even if the MC isn't an expert in the technology involved, they should, at very least, have schematics of the system so that if something else is being run, they should be able to spot it. having said that, if ETNZ does have evidence of wrongdoing, they need to take it to the IJ in a timely manner. The fact we haven't heard of a protest suggests this is fiction, because if ETNZ knows something and is delaying in acting, they are s=risking losing their opportunity, which makes no sense.

 

The article above says that ETNZ raised the issue after Oracle played their postponement card and dramatically increased their performance.  They were told they were too late.  I'm guessing that their argument is that something changed, that change was illegal and that they should have had the right to protest the issue.

 

I'm not saying they're right, just trying to understand the logic of the rumours



#48 I14RACER

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:01 PM


A yachting expert named Peter Lester told a New Zealand TV network that Oracle was using a computer-automated system to get its boat up on the foils. He said skipper Jimmy Spithill merely had to press a button to put the boat on foils, thanks to something called the "stability-assistance system."
"That's complete baloney," Coutts said. "We weren't allowed to be automated. The measurers never would have allowed that." He added with a chuckle, "We were quite happy to have Team New Zealand believe that."

http://www.sfgate.co...ack-4847578.php

This all makes complete sense. This is what I was thinking the mods were. Not new boards or some sort if SAS, but simply a different balance to the boat that got the bow out easier upwind. They were foiling upwind back around Aug 19th. Weeks before the finals. So it didn't make sense that they couldn't later. Now this makes more sense than some sort of aerospace technology that "automatically" adjusted the boards. Everyone seems to forget that they had no problems foiling downwind with plenty of stability and speed and no issues flybing during the early races of the finals. They just couldn't get on the foils as easily upwind. Also, I remember during the beat upwind in the last regatta Anslie asking for a high mode and Slingsby replying "let's get foiling first". The footage from Aug 19th of upwind foiling showed them bare away to get up on foils then start closing the angle to wind to improve VMG. It all ties together and makes the most logical argument. No conspiracies, no aircraft tech. Just good boat balance and technique.

#49 scratch01

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:04 PM

Just look at the sailing distance between  NZ and OR at the last race and you will  all  understand OR  big advantage!!!.



#50 Just a Skosh

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:06 PM

According to Jimmy in nearly every press conference, he continually stated that the shore team never stop working on the boat. How long does the measurement process take for issuing a certificate? Are they only measuring what one team says has been changed? I word it that way because I am more curious about the measurement process for AC72. I am sure it's the same measurement process for both NZ and OR.

 

I hate this kind of thing, especially for NZ. As an American I am disappointed in doing things of questionable legality on a yacht carrying an American flag. 

 

"The only way if you adhere to conventional wisdom, and do everything else that everyone else does – you’re going to lose." - Larry Ellison

 

Just because they were working on the boat doesn't mean that they were making changes that the MC had to sign off on.  They could have simply been tweaking approved systems.



#51 bbr

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:06 PM

The world's most gracious losers trying to win it in court again?

 

If Oracle cheated then they should face the music... It's called playing by the rules, something they're not very good at...



#52 equivocator

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:18 PM

It strains credulity to think that OTUSA could have installed, tested, adjusted and learned to sail with an automatic foil adjustment system with this level of complexity and refinement overnight. So if it exists, it must have been in use and approved by the MC before the match started. I think it is MUCH more credible to believe that the improvement on ORACLE was attributable to other factors.

 

That said, I don't think an automatic adjustment system should be permitted. But IF it exists, why did ORACLE do the porpoise dive at Mark 1of the final race. To me, that looked a lot more like a crew error (or a ride at Disneyland).



#53 DEAD MONEY

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:19 PM

Sounds like TNZ is trying to find any Reason why they lost rather than taking it and moving on. Nothing worse than sore losers.

Oracle boat was inspected and Measured numerous times and nothing was found out of order than but now that we Lost we want to appeal.

#54 No Lotus

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:20 PM

OR got faster for sure, but not by nearly as much as GD claims. After the early races and except for the last two races in heavier air, the boats were essentially equal in speed with OR having a slight advantage downwind and ETNZ a slight advantage upwind. From the start it was recognized that OR had good speed in heavier air so the result of the last two races isn't really surprising. If those races had been in lighter air, ETNZ would have probably won.

#55 GauchoGreg

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:21 PM

Woohoo...another AC scandal. 

 

We can't beat 'em on the water. Never mind, we can smear 'em with slander. 

 

Pathetic.

 

 

This is exactly what Bruno Peyron was talking about in his recent story about the problems of the AC.  It is one thing to have bickering between teams, hate-fests, etc., but if the sport is to ever get any traction, the legal crap that leads to delayed events and uncertainty regarding what will be raced, where, and when . . . it has to subside.



#56 FastBottoms

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:26 PM

Interesting. It turns out that the Kiwi fans are every bit as douchebaggy as Americans. Who'da thunk it?



#57 kmcfast

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:46 PM

The wind gods have spoken, the Kiwi's were soft.



#58 WetHog

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:52 PM

Interesting. It turns out that the Kiwi fans are every bit as douchebaggy as Americans. Who'da thunk it?

 

It turns out? It was always there. After the Black Heart buisness after AC30 the douchebaggyness of some Kiwi fans simply went into hybernation mode. Just ask TeKoodie.

 

WetHog :ph34r:



#59 pusslicker

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:01 PM

It strains credulity to think that OTUSA could have installed, tested, adjusted and learned to sail with an automatic foil adjustment system with this level of complexity and refinement overnight. So if it exists, it must have been in use and approved by the MC before the match started. I think it is MUCH more credible to believe that the improvement on ORACLE was attributable to other factors.

 

That said, I don't think an automatic adjustment system should be permitted. But IF it exists, why did ORACLE do the porpoise dive at Mark 1of the final race. To me, that looked a lot more like a crew error (or a ride at Disneyland).

Might help explain why in the last few months Oracle would look so good one day and the just start doing weird shit the next. Is this about the same thing that the Kiwis protested the day before the match started?



#60 us7070

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:08 PM

any decision by the MC has to be considered final - even if it later turns out that they got it wrong -  or you really can't hold an AC anything like the present one.

 

the exception would be if the team _deliberately_  withholds info about the boat from the MC

 

this is a development class - it is to be expected that boats will be pushing as close as possible to the boundary.

 

when a boat makes a change, they deserve to know right then that it is legal, or not - or how can they continue to race?

 

every cup would be decided after the racing in the court room.

 

the only other option that i can see is to give a certificate at the start of the series, consider it to be the final word, and prohibit any re-measurement during the series.



#61 GauchoGreg

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:15 PM

any decision by the MC has to be considered final - even if it later turns out that they got it wrong -  or you really can't hold an AC anything like the present one.

 

the exception would be if the team _deliberately_  withholds info about the boat from the MC

 

this is a development class - it is to be expected that boats will be pushing as close as possible to the boundary.

 

when a boat makes a change, they deserve to know right then that it is legal, or not - or how can they continue to race?

 

every cup would be decided after the racing in the court room.

 

the only other option that i can see is to give a certificate at the start of the series, consider it to be the final word, and prohibit any re-measurement during the series.

 

Best post in this thread.  As you say, if the MC knows of a change and rules it OK to proceed, it is beyond unreasonable for that decision to be challenged later, after the teams have raced.



#62 yhcranafvr

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:17 PM

I recall James Spithill saying after an earlier race in the match that a major reason they had lost that day was "PROBLEMS WITH OUR SOFTWARE".

 

What software would be so essential to racing the boat? RD used a handheld compass to work out laylines at one stage and still got round the course just fine. Nav software isn't essential to get round a 5 mile course. Mechanical devices don't rely on software.

 

If you go back to the day he made that comment, it was clear that he was talking about their starting software, having been a few seconds late to accelerate...

 

Get with the program guys, you're barking up the wrong tree and making a disgrace of your entire nation.  Talk about sore losers....



#63 sdmoonshadow

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:20 PM

I recall James Spithill saying after an earlier race in the match that a major reason they had lost that day was "PROBLEMS WITH OUR SOFTWARE".

 

What software would be so essential to racing the boat? RD used a handheld compass to work out laylines at one stage and still got round the course just fine. Nav software isn't essential to get round a 5 mile course. Mechanical devices don't rely on software.

 

If you go back to the day he made that comment, it was clear that he was talking about their starting software, having been a few seconds late to accelerate...

 

Get with the program guys, you're barking up the wrong tree and making a disgrace of your entire nation.  Talk about sore losers....

 

Exactly.  He was referring to getting their time/distance calculations correct.



#64 Swimsailor

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:38 PM

I think there's cheating, then there's just trying to exploit the the rules or loopholes.  The AC45 deal was straight up cheating, trying to hide it, doing it undercover.  The ESC issue I think will be one that lawyers will have to sort out, defining what the definition of "is" is.  I don't think LE would spend the rumored $50mm flying in a bunch of nerds if he thought it was against the rules.  Could it be they pushed a loophole too far?  Possibly and they should be DSQ'd because of it.  But I don't fault ETNZ for wanting to find out.



#65 I14RACER

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:44 PM

I think there's cheating, then there's just trying to exploit the the rules or loopholes.  The AC45 deal was straight up cheating, trying to hide it, doing it undercover.  The ESC issue I think will be one that lawyers will have to sort out, defining what the definition of "is" is.  I don't think LE would spend the rumored $50mm flying in a bunch of nerds if he thought it was against the rules.  Could it be they pushed a loophole too far?  Possibly and they should be DSQ'd because of it.  But I don't fault ETNZ for wanting to find out.


He didn't fly anybody in last minute! That issue has been settled by the guys from Core builders. Core had team members I place prior to the start of the finals and they were there to support the shore crew during the long evenings. Please keep up with the facts of the matter before posting.

#66 ezyb

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:45 PM

any decision by the MC has to be considered final - even if it later turns out that they got it wrong -  or you really can't hold an AC anything like the present one.

 

the exception would be if the team _deliberately_  withholds info about the boat from the MC

 

this is a development class - it is to be expected that boats will be pushing as close as possible to the boundary.

 

when a boat makes a change, they deserve to know right then that it is legal, or not - or how can they continue to race?

 

every cup would be decided after the racing in the court room.

 

the only other option that i can see is to give a certificate at the start of the series, consider it to be the final word, and prohibit any re-measurement during the series.

 

Best post in this thread.  As you say, if the MC knows of a change and rules it OK to proceed, it is beyond unreasonable for that decision to be challenged later, after the teams have raced.

 

Agree with both of you.  I believe that the only way this can be challenged is if a team misrepresented the way a system was going to be used in order to get it approved or used an approved system in a way that contravenes the rules. 



#67 RHough

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:51 PM

We know there is/was one Oracle employee that was not cooperating with the OTUSA internal investigation. I read the IJ ruling as them being a bit frustrated by not having all the facts. Dirk has maintained his innocence since the beginning. Dirk and his lawyer (ex StFYC Commodore?) have announced their intention to litigate to clear Dirk's name.

 

This is the story. If/when Dirk proves he was thrown under the bus and the AC45 rot extended higher in OTUSA that will be the headline. Not the silly head fake of letting ETNZ think they had some SAS ...  

 

Every parent has seen their child go from disaster looking for a place to happen on a pushbike to riding safely and with stability. The change is not incremental, one day they just "get it" and except for an occasional brain fart they are fine. USA looks a lot like that, they were wobbling and struggling, then they 'got it' and sailed away. 



#68 Swimsailor

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:53 PM

I think there's cheating, then there's just trying to exploit the the rules or loopholes.  The AC45 deal was straight up cheating, trying to hide it, doing it undercover.  The ESC issue I think will be one that lawyers will have to sort out, defining what the definition of "is" is.  I don't think LE would spend the rumored $50mm flying in a bunch of nerds if he thought it was against the rules.  Could it be they pushed a loophole too far?  Possibly and they should be DSQ'd because of it.  But I don't fault ETNZ for wanting to find out.


He didn't fly anybody in last minute! That issue has been settled by the guys from Core builders. Core had team members I place prior to the start of the finals and they were there to support the shore crew during the long evenings. Please keep up with the facts of the matter before posting.

Hence the word "rumored".  Read my post before you start spouting off, dillhole..  And this is a post entirely about rumors.  There are no facts!  That's why we're discussing it.



#69 arr4ws

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:05 PM

I now understand why Spithill used a card to delay....



#70 bgytr

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:06 PM

Interesting. It turns out that the Kiwi fans are every bit as douchebaggy as Americans. Who'da thunk it?

 

It turns out? It was always there. After the Black Heart buisness after AC30 the douchebaggyness of some Kiwi fans simply went into hybernation mode. Just ask TeKoodie.

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

 

"douchebagginess"  is not bounded by political borders..



#71 Yeah Buoy

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:16 PM

The last thing LE would want on his boat is some type of software.  Huh? Who does what now? Oh, nevermind.



#72 Te Kooti

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:20 PM

Agree with both of you.  I believe that the only way this can be challenged is if a team misrepresented the way a system was going to be used in order to get it approved or used an approved system in a way that contravenes the rules. 

 

Measurement has much to do with looking at documents supplied by a syndicate.

 

It does not always involving peeling back a daggerboard collar and peering inside. Particularly when new certificates are being issued day-after-day.

 

If OR committed errors of omission (i.e. by supplying incomplete or misleading documents) they are in shit.

 

At the final press conference Larry was careful to stress the boat "always measured".

 

Yes. But based on what?



#73 equivocator

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:20 PM

We know there is/was one Oracle employee that was not cooperating with the OTUSA internal investigation. I read the IJ ruling as them being a bit frustrated by not having all the facts. Dirk has maintained his innocence since the beginning. Dirk and his lawyer (ex StFYC Commodore?) have announced their intention to litigate to clear Dirk's name.

 

This is the story. If/when Dirk proves he was thrown under the bus and the AC45 rot extended higher in OTUSA that will be the headline. Not the silly head fake of letting ETNZ think they had some SAS ...  

But keep in mind that Dirk clears his name by showing he wasn't involved, NOT by saying he cheated because he was following an order from someone higher up the food chain. In the Jury decision, they thought the lower level shore crew guys were credible when they said they performed the modifications based on email directions from others who they presumed to be the wing trimmer or trimmers. Dirk was hit hard by the IJ because he denied any knowledge of the matter in a way that the jury did not believe was credible. However, in my experience, not everyone on a team is privy to the gritty details, so it might be true that Dirk didn't know about the illegal mods.



#74 pogen

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:29 PM

Well what ever the SAS was, it measure in, so that should end the discussion.

 

 

However, one can imagine that an 'active' electronic SAS for the foils could be viewed as the moral equivalent of an electronic autopilot for the vertical dimension (or pitch axis), which would be banned by the RRS.

 

And I reckon that there are at least two ex-OR guys whose careers are not looking super great now.  Or maybe we could say 5.



#75 J T

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:35 PM

Agree with both of you.  I believe that the only way this can be challenged is if a team misrepresented the way a system was going to be used in order to get it approved or used an approved system in a way that contravenes the rules. 

 

Measurement has much to do with looking at documents supplied by a syndicate.

 

It does not always involving peeling back a daggerboard collar and peering inside. Particularly when new certificates are being issued day-after-day.

 

If OR committed errors of omission (i.e. by supplying incomplete or misleading documents) they are in shit.

 

At the final press conference Larry was careful to stress the boat "always measured".

 

Yes. But based on what?

How can you say this without being there?  Especially in bold type...

 

Every measurement I've ever been to (even though this was back in the 12 pounder days), the measurer ALWAYS LOOKED at what had been changed from the previous certificate.  If it was a weight change, he checked the correctors and checked the float.  If it was a rudder, or change in keel profile, that was measured and checked. 

 

Certainly a team gives input to the measurers, but it is the measurers RESPONSIBILTY to visually ascertain the change to the previous measurement, which sometimes happened daily after moding.



#76 RHough

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:37 PM

We know there is/was one Oracle employee that was not cooperating with the OTUSA internal investigation. I read the IJ ruling as them being a bit frustrated by not having all the facts. Dirk has maintained his innocence since the beginning. Dirk and his lawyer (ex StFYC Commodore?) have announced their intention to litigate to clear Dirk's name.

 

This is the story. If/when Dirk proves he was thrown under the bus and the AC45 rot extended higher in OTUSA that will be the headline. Not the silly head fake of letting ETNZ think they had some SAS ...  

But keep in mind that Dirk clears his name by showing he wasn't involved, NOT by saying he cheated because he was following an order from someone higher up the food chain. In the Jury decision, they thought the lower level shore crew guys were credible when they said they performed the modifications based on email directions from others who they presumed to be the wing trimmer or trimmers. Dirk was hit hard by the IJ because he denied any knowledge of the matter in a way that the jury did not believe was credible. However, in my experience, not everyone on a team is privy to the gritty details, so it might be true that Dirk didn't know about the illegal mods.

I have heard from someone I have no reason to doubt that Dirk was not involved. If/when the full story is known it will be interesting to see just what happened, when it happened, and who knew. This ugliness is far from over.



#77 Bulbhunter

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:38 PM

 

I recall James Spithill saying after an earlier race in the match that a major reason they had lost that day was "PROBLEMS WITH OUR SOFTWARE".

 

What software would be so essential to racing the boat? RD used a handheld compass to work out laylines at one stage and still got round the course just fine. Nav software isn't essential to get round a 5 mile course. Mechanical devices don't rely on software.

 

If you go back to the day he made that comment, it was clear that he was talking about their starting software, having been a few seconds late to accelerate...

 

Get with the program guys, you're barking up the wrong tree and making a disgrace of your entire nation.  Talk about sore losers....

 

Exactly.  He was referring to getting their time/distance calculations correct.

I recall that you could even hear Jimmy pissed off at the start on the audio that their system seemed to be way off on the position of the start line or the time was out of whack on the display. Not sure which crew but someone was heard on the audio suggesting the relocation of the sensors after they removed the sprit could have caused some issues with the software.



#78 TodB

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:53 PM

If the debacle with the AC45s and the penalty showed anything at all, anything, it is that the regatta was being run by people who weren't in Oracle's pocket.  That was one of LE's big contributions to the Cup since it wasn't always that way in the past, and certainly wouldn't have been that way if EB had won the court case with his phony challenger.

 

The measurers were not the same people as the jury, but they were just as independent.  Whatever was on the boat, the measurers knew about it and approved it. 

 

End of story.



#79 moxie

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:54 PM

Word coming out of San Fran is a certain Oracle member who's career has been left in ruins is going to come out with the full truth regarding the original cheating saga and also about the sudden Oracle turnaround in speed. Sounds like ETNZ know about a lot of all of it but are playing cool for now to not seem like bad sports. I'm listening to his interviews right now with some people 'in the know' and they are all hearing the same rumors.

 

592178_203262656377121_978195114_q.jpg

There's some serious rumours coming out of San Fran that something big is going to come out around Oracle and the pre regatta penalty.. and the improvements made to the boat. The rumour mill is in over drive.. watch this space.... bloody interesting talking to several parties this avo about it.

Um, yeah I think looking to Veitch(y) for accurate reporting, views on morality or sportsmanship, etc... is ridiculous.



#80 PFD

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:04 PM

 


A yachting expert named Peter Lester told a New Zealand TV network that Oracle was using a computer-automated system to get its boat up on the foils. He said skipper Jimmy Spithill merely had to press a button to put the boat on foils, thanks to something called the "stability-assistance system."
"That's complete baloney," Coutts said. "We weren't allowed to be automated. The measurers never would have allowed that." He added with a chuckle, "We were quite happy to have Team New Zealand believe that."

http://www.sfgate.co...ack-4847578.php

This all makes complete sense. This is what I was thinking the mods were. Not new boards or some sort if SAS, but simply a different balance to the boat that got the bow out easier upwind. They were foiling upwind back around Aug 19th. Weeks before the finals. So it didn't make sense that they couldn't later. Now this makes more sense than some sort of aerospace technology that "automatically" adjusted the boards. Everyone seems to forget that they had no problems foiling downwind with plenty of stability and speed and no issues flybing during the early races of the finals. They just couldn't get on the foils as easily upwind. Also, I remember during the beat upwind in the last regatta Anslie asking for a high mode and Slingsby replying "let's get foiling first". The footage from Aug 19th of upwind foiling showed them bare away to get up on foils then start closing the angle to wind to improve VMG. It all ties together and makes the most logical argument. No conspiracies, no aircraft tech. Just good boat balance and technique.

I noticed that Ainslie/Slingsby exchange. (I think the reply was more like "Right, we'll just get foiling first.") I think Coutts may have understated "Once the boat picked up speed and you were able to get on the foils, you could close the angle somewhat." These boats exit a tack at about 13 knots and get up to 21-22 quite quickly, but then they take a long time creeping up to the high twenties. They spend a large fraction of their time upwind in that speed build phase. Not only did Oracle improve it's upwind foiling mode, I think they refined how they trasitioned from a tack to their high mode when that was called for.



#81 Rennmaus

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:06 PM

And how would ETNZ prove anything. If there were dubious parts on the boat, they'd be certainly gone by now.

Hopefully - for both teams - just a rumor.



#82 burbanite

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:07 PM

You know, as much as I don't want to drag this out and think that everyone should move on I am very interested in an outcome if it clears someones name.



#83 sansouci

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:07 PM

The Racing Rules on the matter are very clear RRS42 Propulsion states: A yacht shall compete only by using the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the wing, sails, rudders, daggerboards and hulls, and perform other acts of seamanship.

I am just wondering if this rule applies to foiling Moths? If it does, how is the Wand used to trim the Moths foil adjusted by the crew? Yes the wand is purely mechanical, but....just wondering. Truly hope this does not go to court. The event brought lots of positive attention to the sport, do not need any more negative crap.

#84 evenflow

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:08 PM

Yes, some poor F-16 isn't going to become a drone this month... and those Kiwi's aren't getting a pay cheque ever again!



#85 bowgeezer

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:16 PM

I recall James Spithill saying after an earlier race in the match that a major reason they had lost that day was "PROBLEMS WITH OUR SOFTWARE".

 

What software would be so essential to racing the boat? RD used a handheld compass to work out laylines at one stage and still got round the course just fine. Nav software isn't essential to get round a 5 mile course. Mechanical devices don't rely on software.

Why did ETNZ quit their race against LR when they forgot to recharge their batteries??  Especially when mechanical systems don't rely on software..



#86 RHough

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:22 PM

I recall James Spithill saying after an earlier race in the match that a major reason they had lost that day was "PROBLEMS WITH OUR SOFTWARE".

 

What software would be so essential to racing the boat? RD used a handheld compass to work out laylines at one stage and still got round the course just fine. Nav software isn't essential to get round a 5 mile course. Mechanical devices don't rely on software.

Why did ETNZ quit their race against LR when they forgot to recharge their batteries??  Especially when mechanical systems don't rely on software..

The rules don't apply to the kiwi's?



#87 Peelman

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:30 PM

The below statement in the article seems very suspect when it comes to the world of sailing a race series.

"The source also said there was speculation in the Team NZ camp that Oracle Boss and Billionaire Larry Ellison might be willing to come to a settlement rather than see the case go to court.

Because Ellison has significant investments and business connections in Auckland there was some "debate controversy" around the idea of taking legal action."

Article - 

http://www.scoop.co....rimming-mod.htm



#88 PeterHuston

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:32 PM

The issue of cheating and Dirk cleaning his name are two unrelated subjects for the most part.

 

There are clearly people inside Oracle that fucked up, and they paid the price.

 

The real question now is whether or not the sailor had due process.

 

The rest of this stuff coming out of NZL now seems to be coming from only the shock jock media and some anonymous gutless pricks who don't have the balls, or in one instance, the clit, to use their real names.  It is impossible to take seriously rumors spread but gutless anonymous screen names.  Not even worth discussing.



#89 dogwatch

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:37 PM

 Not even worth discussing.

 

Yet here you are.



#90 blowboat

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:41 PM

The population is upset.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PpccpglnNf0



#91 PeterHuston

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:42 PM

The below statement in the article seems very suspect when it comes to the world of sailing a race series.

"The source also said there was speculation in the Team NZ camp that Oracle Boss and Billionaire Larry Ellison might be willing to come to a settlement rather than see the case go to court.

Because Ellison has significant investments and business connections in Auckland there was some "debate controversy" around the idea of taking legal action."

Article - 

http://www.scoop.co....rimming-mod.htm

 

Uh huh...Larry is about as close to settling this lawsuit as he is to settling with kithcart.  What a joke.  



#92 ChiGuy

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:45 PM

The Racing Rules on the matter are very clear RRS42 Propulsion states: A yacht shall compete only by using the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the wing, sails, rudders, daggerboards and hulls, and perform other acts of seamanship.

I am just wondering if this rule applies to foiling Moths? If it does, how is the Wand used to trim the Moths foil adjusted by the crew? Yes the wand is purely mechanical, but....just wondering. Truly hope this does not go to court. The event brought lots of positive attention to the sport, do not need any more negative crap.

If the class rules or sailing instructions override the RRS it is fine. That is done quite often in Finn's for instance when they're allowed to turn off some parts of 42 under windy conditions.



#93 FastRobert

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:03 PM

[/quote]
Why did ETNZ quit their race against LR when they forgot to recharge their batteries??  Especially when mechanical systems don't rely on software..[/quote]

It was a cute quote on SA about forgetting to charge batteries. They experienced difficulties the day after they augered in and submersed the electrical panel.

#94 Remodel

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:08 PM

 

The below statement in the article seems very suspect when it comes to the world of sailing a race series.

"The source also said there was speculation in the Team NZ camp that Oracle Boss and Billionaire Larry Ellison might be willing to come to a settlement rather than see the case go to court.

Because Ellison has significant investments and business connections in Auckland there was some "debate controversy" around the idea of taking legal action."

Article - 

http://www.scoop.co....rimming-mod.htm

 

Uh huh...Larry is about as close to settling this lawsuit as he is to settling with kithcart.  What a joke.  

Not to mention that the protocol prohibits legal action. I surmise that if anyone pursues that option, they would automatically lose their position as either challenger or COR. It's a lose - lose scenario.

 

I suppose that ETNZ could get Luna Rossa to file the lawsuit for them...

 

But, oh  yeah, Luna Rossa didn't compete in the AC Final, so they have no standing in the case.

 

Whomever is spreading these rumors needs to bone up on contract law.



#95 C Hawk

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:18 PM

Somewhere along the line I heard Jimmy mention a software upgrade during that layday. I wonder if that was to improve the performance of the already installed and measured "Stability Augmentation System" and therefore not a measurement issue. Just speculating.



#96 fallsailor

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:20 PM

I think it was Snaerk who explained how he thought the system worked.

 

I can't actually imagine that.....  Did he use whole words?

 

Too fucking funny!!!



#97 chauch

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:23 PM

Meh.

 

Until I see this confirmed as something from ETNZ, it's just the NZ media doing their usual sensationalist routine.  They were the loudest at counting the chickens, so having recriminations now or looking for reasons why the result shouldn't have been what it was is understandable.  And after all, they exist to sell newspapers, so...

 

ETNZ have been very gracious in defeat, so I'll continue appreciating that until they give us a reason not to.  I really don't see the Kiwis trying to win a Cup in court that they lost on the water.  (Well, not anymore...)

 

RC's explanation per the NYT article makes a lot of sense.  Rather than imagining what would have been hidden, it's easier to look at what wasn't hidden: OTUSA were able to get on their foils faster and they sailed longer distances to beat ETNZ upwind.

 

I know a lot of fanboys on here want to believe the fairy tale that LE is evil, RC is evil, and the only way for OTUSA to win is to cheat.  But often the simplest explanation is that way for a reason: because it's true.  Take a lesson from your heroes on the boat and man up.



#98 mosailn

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:58 PM


"There's some serious rumours coming out of San Fran that something big is going to come out around Oracle and the pre regatta penalty.. and the improvements made to the boat. The rumour mill is in over drive.. watch this space.... bloody interesting talking to several parties this avo about it."

Rumours are just that Rumours! Whatever happened pre-AC and during the AC has been settled. If the IJ and the measures don't standup and state OTUSA was legal than the whole f'n thing is a total junk show and loses all credibility. That will not happen because
TNZ was fairly handed a loss by OTUSA that has a better technology package..boards, aero, mast control /position, board control/position..its that simple.

I encourage you to read the Q & A blog in Sailing World it is currently the best insight to the design philosophy and execution by each team. Gino Morrelli(let's remember he is the rule designer and a TNZ designer) stated that Oracle had a superior board control system and they needed time to figure it out. Well they figured it out..the boat measured in each and every day. Whatelse needs to be said?

...forget, accept and move on. There is always 2017...

#99 CheekyMonkey

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:09 PM

To me, this seems like an analogy between a mass damper system, instead of a full-on FW14-style active suspension...and thus legal.

 

(Until it's outlawed--but that can't happen retroactively. Better luck next time.)



#100 Bgrnyrz

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:25 PM

 
if ETNZ does have evidence of wrongdoing, they need to take it to the IJ in a timely manner.

ENTZ's problem is that they didn't put away OR in a TIMELY MANNER.




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