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29er dismasting gopro


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#1 sailingkid

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:56 AM

Hey everyone,

 

My friend and I took his 29er out for a sail in a fair bit of breeze yesterday just for something different, managed to blow the rig out of the boat, I thought I'd post the video for those that are interested. The stay pulled out of the swage at the chainplate.

 

http://youtu.be/y-f7rSl9V6k

 

Tom



#2 BalticBandit

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:35 AM

So what broke?  It looks like the uppers go slack and then you launch like a catapult.

 

BTW I'd recommend that you get even lower in your trap and stand behind the driver next time...



#3 james14

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:54 AM

The windward stay ripped out of the swage and the rig just blew over taking me with it.
I tried to lower myself more at the start of the run but my cleat wasn't co operating, that and I had a bit on staying on the boat! Haha

#4 sailingkid

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:13 AM

I was driving, first time driving a 29er in 2 years. It would have been nice if he was a bit lower but it was ballistic and with our 180kgs we weren't lacking righting moment anyway.

#5 BalticBandit

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:55 AM

The windward stay ripped out of the swage and the rig just blew over taking me with it.
I tried to lower myself more at the start of the run but my cleat wasn't co operating, that and I had a bit on staying on the boat! Haha

Yeah saw that...  Straddling the skipper helps with that...



#6 nbb

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:49 PM

Some bad luck.. how'd you get back in?



#7 Terrorvision

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:17 PM

I was driving, first time driving a 29er in 2 years. It would have been nice if he was a bit lower but it was ballistic and with our 180kgs we weren't lacking righting moment anyway.

 

Love that you made sure the kite was safely away before you checked on James14!

 

I know nothing about 29ers but is it normal to have that much forestay sag, even with the kite up in a blow?



#8 Doug Lord

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:00 PM

Thanks for the video, Tom!



#9 BalticBandit

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:38 PM

Thanks for the video, Tom!

Right Dougie - like you with your "bad back" are ever going to learn anything from that...



#10 Liquid

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:10 PM

Thanks for the video, Tom!

Right Dougie - like you with your "bad back" are ever going to learn anything from that...

 

Come on BB, try and use the ignore feature with your fav pal Dougie.  Your constant attacks on DL are getting really tiresome...  We all know you love to hate him and that you probably wake up every day and search for Dougie posts that you can ridicule, seems almost sad at this point!   Back off on DL.

 

What's there to learn from a dismasting vid anyway other than the crew should have been farther down and aft?  Not that that would have made an ounce of difference for the shroud pulling out of the swage.



#11 james14

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:50 PM

Some bad luck.. how'd you get back in?

lucky it was a northerly breeze and there was a tiny bit of beach to our south and we drifted for about 1-2 hours, then we had to walk back to the yacht club to get a dolly to collect the boat! haha

 

I was driving, first time driving a 29er in 2 years. It would have been nice if he was a bit lower but it was ballistic and with our 180kgs we weren't lacking righting moment anyway.

 

Love that you made sure the kite was safely away before you checked on James14!

 

I know nothing about 29ers but is it normal to have that much forestay sag, even with the kite up in a blow?

he actually saw that i wasnt able to keep up swimming because the kite was still set so luckily it was able to drop and didn't get tangled, otherwise i wouldn't have made it back to the boat!! 



#12 BalticBandit

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 08:16 AM

 

Thanks for the video, Tom!

Right Dougie - like you with your "bad back" are ever going to learn anything from that...

 

Come on BB, try and use the ignore feature with your fav pal Dougie.  Your constant attacks on DL are getting really tiresome...  We all know you love to hate him and that you probably wake up every day and search for Dougie posts that you can ridicule, seems almost sad at this point!   Back off on DL.

 

What's there to learn from a dismasting vid anyway other than the crew should have been farther down and aft?  Not that that would have made an ounce of difference for the shroud pulling out of the swage.

Well it wouldn't have stopped the shroud pulling out (well it might have but..) but with the crew being lower down, the more RM might have had enough leverage to allow a roundup and a less harsh fall.  I once lost a shroud (pin worked out)  while I was hard on the trap and because I was hard enough on that the shroud was slack, we were able to crash tack and keep the rig upright... Mind you that was upwind.  The other time our shroud adjuster blew up (5oh) and my being on the trap allowed the mast come down aft (the mast jumped out of its step ) with only minor tweaking that we could undo with a park bench

 

James - hang onto that skipper.  that sort of heads up is critical to safe skiff sailing



#13 mustang__1

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 03:42 AM

I was driving, first time driving a 29er in 2 years. It would have been nice if he was a bit lower but it was ballistic and with our 180kgs we weren't lacking righting moment anyway.

 

Love that you made sure the kite was safely away before you checked on James14!

 

I know nothing about 29ers but is it normal to have that much forestay sag, even with the kite up in a blow?

 

yeah its not uncommon. curious to know what tension they were running, they looked heavy enough that they might have gone a touch light on tension to keep power upwind through that chop. 

 

Baltic, i dont think stradling the skipper is SOP anymore. Many of the top teams are using a flexible footstrap thats anchored just forward of the skippers ass when the skipper is at the back of the boat. They are flexible (webbing with something to help hold it slightly rigid) so the skipper can hike over it in other conditions. I still have the old skool setup but will be experimenting with the new setup this winter. Then again im not one of the fastest crew's in heavy air, so what do i know... i tend to blame it on lack of weight on the wire.... 



#14 sailingkid

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 07:28 AM

We were running 24 on the loos gauge, with a crew weight of 180kgs. I think the breeze would have touched 30 there, it was stupidly windy, more then the video shows. We really werent fussed about trapping position, James is a bowman on a 45 foot keelboat training for the Sydney-Hobart this year and I'm a paradox A class addict, our 29er days are behind us! :-P

#15 BalticBandit

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:51 AM

Well even with foot straps, having something to push your knee against helps (on the 49er having the crew have their leg under the skippers front let really does improve stability). 

 

in 30 knots -- shit breaks.  swages let loose if they have crevice corrosion



#16 Jason AUS

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:02 AM

Great ad for Macdiarmid.... Chutes so powerful they'll pull your rig out.

#17 RobG

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:22 AM

What's there to learn from a dismasting vid anyway other than the crew should have been farther down and aft?

 

Maybe that stays should be double swaged?



#18 sailingkid

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:26 AM

That did work well on the 49er, works on the 12 foot skiff too.

Well even with foot straps, having something to push your knee against helps (on the 49er having the crew have their leg under the skippers front let really does improve stability). 

 

in 30 knots -- shit breaks.  swages let loose if they have crevice corrosion



#19 couchsurfer

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 01:47 PM

 .

 

....sailkid--any idea what the rig tension was set at?..that forestay -did- seem to be doing some major sagging--but perhaps the swage  was already releasing...........curious minds want to know :rolleyes:



#20 DennisY

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:47 PM

Hmmmm, 180 kg's? 29er?



#21 SPARSRUS

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 03:54 PM

If the shroud was actually swaged and not nicopressed, the swage should hold to the breaking strength of the wire. It sounds like the swage was not properly done if the wire pulled out. A check of the outer diameter of the swage fitting is the way to check to see if it was swaged properly. Single nico presses on 1X19 wire don't hold to the breaking strength of the wire and should not be used. Hobie double nicos their shrouds, and that seems to work, but wire manufacturers do not recommend the method.



#22 Reht

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:23 PM

I've tried both foot strap setups (on the back corner of the wing and just forward enough for the skipper to hike behind it downwind) both in a blow and I couldn't say definitively one is better than the other. You have to have your back foot in the strap (otherwise punching through a wave you just rotate about your front foot), so the forward strap position means your weight is either not as far back or not as far out. With the aft position the skipper ends up sitting on the crew's foot once they're in the strap, which helps lock the crew in (if they are both comfortable enough to stay there), but means that you have a skipper who is hiking on your legs (or between them) and one or both of you won't be able to lean as hard as you could otherwise. Sorry for the derail...

 

As to the actual video, a little lower on the wire may have helped, but with the kite up and the boat bouncing through waves the end result was probably going to be the same in the end. Good job sailingkid getting that kite down in a hurry, abandoning the crew is generally unappreciated when they do wade back into shore. I remember when I was sailing 29ers regularly the regattas would often call off racing around 20-25knts citing the fact that much more than that and the boats start disintegrating. I always thought that going out in breeze like in the video for a race would be spectacular and really pull out the crews who had their boat handling down.



#23 mustang__1

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:39 PM

some regattas it only takes 15kts to see who really has their boat handling down.... 

 

re footstrap: my skipper complains when not totally locked into the boat, which is hard to do when half their ass is on a daKine strap or not be able to drop down because the crew is wadling around them...

 

As for abandoning crews, was out cruising around one day and i whipped it through the gybe., My crew just got launched from wing to wing as the boat spun under. I actually kept the boat upright, doused the kite, and almost made it back before capsizing.... and then drifting faster than they could swim. I did eventually get the boat upwind to him. 



#24 BalticBandit

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:51 PM

If the shroud was actually swaged and not nicopressed, the swage should hold to the breaking strength of the wire. It sounds like the swage was not properly done if the wire pulled out. A check of the outer diameter of the swage fitting is the way to check to see if it was swaged properly. Single nico presses on 1X19 wire don't hold to the breaking strength of the wire and should not be used. Hobie double nicos their shrouds, and that seems to work, but wire manufacturers do not recommend the method.

I'v'e had swaged shrouds go.  Swages are susceptible to crevice corrosion. So yes it does hold to the breaking strength of the wire.  Its just that the breaking strength gets compromised inside the swage.  So it looks like it "pulled out" but in reality you had a crevice corrosion failure



#25 Reht

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:23 AM

re footstrap: my skipper complains when not totally locked into the boat, which is hard to do when half their ass is on a daKine strap or not be able to drop down because the crew is wadling around them...

One other thing we tried, with the forward foot strap not as far forward as to have the skipper hiking on the gunwale clear astern of it. I could trap hard with my back foot in the strap while the skipper was hiking sort of off the back corner (had grip down the back of the winglet to stop sliding into the middle of the boat). This gave a compromise that the skipper could provide some weight backwards allowing me to trap to my full extent, but it wasn't the most comfortable position.



#26 Andrew P

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:45 AM



 

I know nothing about 29ers but is it normal to have that much forestay sag, even with the kite up in a blow?

 

 

Might have been the swage slipping initially before it pulled out altogether. Much more forestay sag on the second run down. 



#27 Reht

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:49 PM

In a blow the composite top section definitely blows away and causes a lot of headstay sag. Completely normal (remember that the hounds are below the level of the kite halyard, there's nothing holding the mast up there except itself.

 

It is odd to look at (especially when you're not 100% confident in your boat).



#28 mustang__1

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:14 AM

In a blow the composite top section definitely blows away and causes a lot of headstay sag. Completely normal (remember that the hounds are below the level of the kite halyard, there's nothing holding the mast up there except itself.

 

It is odd to look at (especially when you're not 100% confident in your boat).

ive got a relatively new mast - especially compared to my boat, and it still terrifies the living shit out of me. those top sections do have catastrophic failures every now and then... i wouldnt say the mast is completely supported on its own - the main does a lot too, of course. Seeing what the mast does when the main gets over eased or dropped is downright scary...



#29 Left Hook

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 03:28 AM

Typical behavior by an unseaworthy boat in not-extreme conditions...



#30 mustang__1

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:56 PM

Typical behavior by an unseaworthy boat in not-extreme conditions...

 

 

Thanks, much appreciated. By that link, the 505 is faster than the I14? The 49er is significantly faster than both boats. That is if I am reading that correctly.....

Who gives a fuck, not like you're going anywhere on it around the buoys.

 

 

mystery solved?



#31 Snikch

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:01 AM

Re: trapping lower and saving the rig- Typical rig tension in 29er's are 150-300lbs of forestay tension, which translates to 700-1,000lbs of shroud tension. If one of those things lets go, it's very unlikely that someone on the wire would be able to keep it up.

 

Perhaps the perspective is different from the drivers positon, i'd be interested to know what rig tension you were running that day. I don't remember seeing that much sag in my rig



#32 sailingkid

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:05 PM

24 on the loos gauge, im not sure what that is in pounds though.

#33 BalticBandit

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:39 PM

100# of shroud tension is not what is required to keep the rig upright.  That's what's required to bend it to the shape needed for upwind work

 

Remember that the leverage multiplier of the forestay (relative angles to the bow from the mast vs the shrouds to the mast) iis more than doubled from the mast to the stern of the boat.  When futzing with rig tension on our 5oh, I regularly would use my body weight in a Trapeze off the forestay to simulate sailing loads.  so if 300# with a leveer arm of 1.2 meters gets you 100# of shroud tension, then that should easily be offset by 175# with a lever arm of 2.5+ meters

 

the last 49er mast I broke we broke because we teabbagged in a lull and the weather shrouds went loose from our being trapped too hard, and then a blast hit and the rig just folded at the joint.



#34 SimonN

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:05 PM

Having watched the video very carefully, I am pretty convinced that this was the crews fault! (always blame the crew....) I have watched it frame by frame and believe that the crew actually loses balance just before the rig comes down and that he isn't thrown because the rig is coming down. What I believe happens is that the crew was acting as a backstay and when his weight came off the mast, he stopped acting as a backstay, the rigging broke because it was suddenly subjected to more load and the rest just followed on. The crew needed to be lower and locked in.

 

It reminded me of the 1983 505 worlds where there was a 40 knot squall. the 6 leaders were round the top mark and had their kites up. 4 broke their masts, one capsized and one stayed upright, mast intact and that result effectively won them the worlds. the crew was Cam Lewis and on spotting the squall, he hooked on and trapezed with his feet on the thwart so that he was acting as a backstay. With his size and leverage, that was enough to save the rig, while Gary Knapp did a great job of steering. Best bit of seamanship I know of in a dinghy.



#35 Ben G

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:21 AM

Yep nothing to do with rusty swages I'd blame bad crew work too.. I reckon the guy let go of the sheet when he face planted the boom.  Poor form really, should have held onto the sheet after the faceplant and kept the boat going while he was overboard.  A well trained for'd hand would have thought of it



#36 james14

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:00 AM

What actually happened was we where surfing down a wave we hit the back of the wave in front of us and we slowed down my weight came forward a little and the kite flogged, when it set again there was obviously a quick increase in loads then the swage broke because of rust and I know that because I took if home and had a look at it myself! So it may have been some of my fault but it certainly wasn't all my fault and I stand by that!!!!!

#37 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:33 AM

james,

 

just because you were there and inspected the swage afterwards, doesn't mean you know more than a bunch of people who've seen the evidence on a youtube clip.



#38 Hobie Dog

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:41 PM

james,

 

just because you were there and inspected the swage afterwards, doesn't mean you know more than a bunch of people who've seen the evidence on a youtube clip.

You are correct! :lol:



#39 Andrew P

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:13 PM

Having watched the video very carefully, I am pretty convinced that this was the crews fault! (always blame the crew....) I have watched it frame by frame and believe that the crew actually loses balance just before the rig comes down and that he isn't thrown because the rig is coming down. What I believe happens is that the crew was acting as a backstay and when his weight came off the mast, he stopped acting as a backstay, the rigging broke because it was suddenly subjected to more load and the rest just followed on. The crew needed to be lower and locked in. 

Suprised at this statement Simon, maybe there's an arguement that the rigging should be strong enough to withstand a minor "error" by a non expert crew.

 

It reminded me of the 1983 505 worlds........ sounding like an old fart here



#40 Ben G

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:11 PM

so have fun on the 12' tomorrow  ;)






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