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Crash at Big Boat Seires Saturday (SF)?


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#101 Smythe302

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:19 PM

If you don't want a fucked up boat, don't crash your boat.

If you don't want to be injured or have crew injured, don't crash your boat.

If you don't want the reputation as the guy who crashes boats and doesn't know what the fuck he's doing, don't crash your boat.

 

If you have crashed your boat, you have fucked up. Simple as that.

 

The racecourse is the racecourse, and all these fuckers knew there would be other boats on it before they started.



#102 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:10 PM

I realize it is easy to miss the point what with all the lightning striking and the snipers sniping.  

 

Hopefully, those that actually run multi-class regattas will recognize the point, which is:

 

Planing one-design fleets continue to grow and fill out events that contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties.  At BBS, we saw the results of a burdened boat not seeing another boat on a collision course and a ROW boat not seeing another boat on a collision course.   We also saw a PRO who failed to either educate all the fleets on this possibility and/or failed to keep them from sailing through each other's courses.  Could it be an isolated incident?  Of course it could, and maybe we'll never see a young man with a fractured vertebra resulting from a big boat vs. little boat collision again.  From where I sit, spending most of my weekends at events like this, it seems plain as day that we will see someone die sooner or later from exactly this kind of crash.

 

Whose fault it is under the RRS will not matter much to the media, to the insurance companies deciding on whether to renew YC or individual policies, or to the coast guard.  

 

Serious question:  If the Melges crew had been killed in this crash, or become paraplegic (which could very easily have happened), what do you think would be happening right now?  Do you think Norm Davant would still be sending me bitchy e-mails for being so nasty to him? Do you think I would be the only one pointing out that the RO could have anticipated something like this happening and planned for it better?  Give me a fucking break.

 

Christ even NoStrings wants to echo me but he's too afraid of the SF anti-SA coalition to bother. 



#103 Wet Spreaders

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:43 PM

The J120 guys don't need extra communication from the RC, the PRO or their mommies about not driving into other boats; sometimes a fuckup is just a fuckup.

 

You can't apply warning-stickers to the surface of the ocean.



#104 jurrasicsailor

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:44 PM

Clean, what is it with your continual bashing of older keel boats?  this quote:  "contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties."  seems to indicate the J/120 had some obligation to "negotiate" the melges.  Maybe it is true, but it doesn't fit the circumstances here.  The Melges was the burdened boat. Flip the statement around to "contain light sportboats with sailors unwilling to consider the speeds & angles of traditional sailing yachts"  and your bias becomes clear. 

 

I think it is great that you love sportboats, really i do.  But the myopic point of view that they are the "bestest" should really be reigned in.  our entire sport is an anachronism- using sails to move boats on the water.  Heck the AC clearly shows that today's sport boats will be  tomorrows shitboxes, so it seems stupid to condemn one group of anachronistic athletes relative to another doesn't it?  Or am I supposed to be disdainful of everyone who sails boats with a keel attached rudders just because I sail a Cal 40?  I don't think it helps our sport at all to carry on this way.  A shields might not be your idea of a good time racing a 30 foot daysailor, but to some it is a great joy.  And we are ALL sailors. 

 

I wish the best to both boats.



#105 nolvad

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:47 PM

 

That is one of my points...COLREGS is NOT the RRS.  We NORMALLY dont race under COLREGS, unless meeting boats that are NOT RACING, there is nothing in the NOR or SIs that say COLREGs. 

 

That is like the state troopers monitoring speeds during the indy 500.  All boats have a duty to avoid colisions, but the happen even to the best sailors, more often to the worse ones - they all are often serious, i am sorry that people got hurt, but you do a huge disservice by throwing COLREG definitions, terms and rules into a RRS discussion.

Decision
Rule 14 begins ‘A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.’ This requirement means a boat must do everything that can reasonably be expected of her in the prevailing conditions to avoid contact.
This includes keeping a good lookout, particularly in a crowded starting line situation.
The protest committee concluded that if either boat had seen the other a collision could have been avoided, even at the last minute, particularly if Ephesian had hailed Jupa when it was clear that Jupa was not changing course to keep clear. Until that moment, rule 14(a) allows a right-of-way boat to delay acting to avoid contact. It follows that at that moment she must begin to act in an effort to avoid contact. The word ‘act’ is not restricted to changing course or speed. Hailing was an action that Ephesian could and should have taken. Ephesian broke rule 14. Because the collision resulted in damage, the protest committee’s decision to disqualify Ephesian was correct (see rules 14( B) and 64.1(a)). Her appeal is therefore dismissed.
Clearly, Jupa broke rule 10. As a result of the serious damage she suffered in the collision, she retired from the race and thus took the applicable penalty (see rule 44.1( B)). Rule 64.1( B) prohibits penalizing her further. The disqualification of Jupa is reversed and she is to be scored DNF.

 

Clean - this isn't really relevant, as it's clear the 120 _did_ see the other boats.., so there is no issue of keeping a proper lookout.

 

the geometry of a boat on starboard going upwind (L) vs a boat on starboard going downwind (W) virtually assures this - the 120 probably had 8 people on the rail that saw the group of melges. if the boat they eventually hit was hidden behind other boats, that's a separate issue.

 

in any case the crew member says they saw them.

 

as someone who actually steers a boat - there are a few things i would want to know before passing judgement here (and if i were the 120 owner i would _not_ be answering questions here).

 

you need to remember that under rule 16, the ability of the ROW boat to maneuver (in this case L, the 120) is actually _more_ restricted in this situation, than that of the giveway boat (W, the melges) and it can be a bit scary.

 

not only does L not have to alter course until it is clear that W is not keeping clear..., but it's actually safer if they don't.

 

one big question, is whether the melges were altering course as they converged with the 120... planing boats alter course quite a bit on a run.

 

what was the exact geometry of the group of melges? did they all pass in front of the 120? did some pass behind? the 120 was an obstruction for the melges...  was there an issue of room to pass an obstruction?

 

 the melges hit was the second or third boat t round the mark, This is how I saw it, keep in mind other may have more info this is just one perspective. everything is approximateM1phMhK.png



#106 Parma

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:03 PM

Fixed!

 

Attached File  M1phMhK.png   15.18K   122 downloads



#107 NoStrings

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:10 AM

Well, I did happen to notice that the J70's used the WBRA course during the regatta, at least on Thurs/Fri. I can't speak for the weekend, as I didn't watch. This kept them more or less out of everyone's gunsights, with the exception of their upwind mark at Presidio Shoals. That's why I asked the question about a Yellow Bluff mark, to wit: if there had been a YB mark set, would the RCs have used it to help deconflict the fleets, and keep the big boats from running through them at the top of the course for each?

I'm the YRA buoy mgr, and if there's enough justification and support to re-instate this historic mark, we could, with financial help, make it happen. It's not a cheap mark, the water is deep, the currents very strong, and it's going to need stuff like reflectors and a light. I just want to know from the community if it will be used, because this would be the Heidi Klum of race marks...extremely high maintenance.

The other question I'd ask is why wasn't Blackaller used? It's set in 52' of water. There's no law keeping any club from setting an offset. Using it in addition to the Presidio Shoals temp would have given the RCs options. If its a question of branding, the RC knows who I am. Call me and ask if you can wrap it in Rolex flags.

Personally, I don't see the harm in opening a discussion to that helps provide guidance to RCs when running mixed fleets, particularly when one of them is significantly smaller, quicker, and sailing unfamiliar angles. It's specifically why we're, starting with Big Daddy and Yankee Cup offering sportboat only starts...and by sportboats we mean asymm kites on sprits. Ultralights don't count.

Clearly this was an accident caused by a failure of two boats and their crews to see and avoid. And lets not forget that both boats were at or close to the top of their respective fleets in this particular race. No doubt there was lots of adrenalin and LOTS of testosterone involved, as evidenced by the J120s response to the collision. And before anyone gets their tits in a wringer, I have been involved in a nasty collision that was our bad, and we retired immediately, even though the victim continued to race. As a community, we were really lucky that someone didn't get the chop. I don't believe that we have to wait for the worst to happen to have a reasoned discussion about fleet/course/mark deconfliction.

#108 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:45 AM

Clean, what is it with your continual bashing of older keel boats?  this quote:  "contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties."  seems to indicate the J/120 had some obligation to "negotiate" the melges.  Maybe it is true, but it doesn't fit the circumstances here.  The Melges was the burdened boat. Flip the statement around to "contain light sportboats with sailors unwilling to consider the speeds & angles of traditional sailing yachts"  and your bias becomes clear. 

 

I think it is great that you love sportboats, really i do.  But the myopic point of view that they are the "bestest" should really be reigned in.  our entire sport is an anachronism- using sails to move boats on the water.  Heck the AC clearly shows that today's sport boats will be  tomorrows shitboxes, so it seems stupid to condemn one group of anachronistic athletes relative to another doesn't it?  Or am I supposed to be disdainful of everyone who sails boats with a keel attached rudders just because I sail a Cal 40?  I don't think it helps our sport at all to carry on this way.  A shields might not be your idea of a good time racing a 30 foot daysailor, but to some it is a great joy.  And we are ALL sailors. 

 

I wish the best to both boats.

I don't have disdain and I don't know where you are finding it in what is an effort to prevent serious injury without expense or much effort?  



#109 NoStrings

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:09 AM

BTW, as someone who has not only been critical of Clean, and having been banned for it, I'd like to say that I don't see a damn thing wrong with what Alan wrote. Collisions and injuries are news, if you have any recollection of events in and around our bay in the past two years. Alan covered it. I didn't see him assigning blame, he just started asking questions and stimulating discussion. IMHO, nothing more to it than that.

#110 jurrasicsailor

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:26 AM

Hilarious.  would love to have seen that quote "what is an effort to prevent serious injury without expense or much effort?" applied to the melges a few months ago, which you so went so far as to alter the discussion thread in order to protect the sportboats and sailors involved. 



#111 DKinSF

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:40 AM

BTW, as someone who has not only been critical of Clean, and having been banned for it, I'd like to say that I don't see a damn thing wrong with what Alan wrote. Collisions and injuries are news, if you have any recollection of events in and around our bay in the past two years. Alan covered it. I didn't see him assigning blame, he just started asking questions and stimulating discussion. IMHO, nothing more to it than that.

 

"the J/120 was at fault for not anticipating what happens in a tight one-design fleet on his bow and possibly for not doing what he could to avoid contact"  

 

-MR.CLEAN, Posted 06 October 2013 - 07:20 AM



#112 Bill R

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:00 AM

All the racers must have been  aware at the start of the series that there were other boats racing. They all should have been aware that other boats were on the harbour.

therefore surely all of them should keep a good look out.

 

Yes it is difficult to see where you are going with a massive gennaker out the front, but you know its blocking your view and you therefore have to do something so that you know what's behind it. The same goes for a jib that blocks out the view forward.

 

I don't think its the race officers fault. At the end of the day it comes down to the crew of the yachts involved. 

 

Who would be to blame if the boat hand crashed into a lighthouse?  The lighthouse keeper's?

 

It seems today that society has got itself into a blame someone else mentality. Unfortunately some shit is your own fault and you have to accept that fact.  maybe this needs to be taught at schools or in the home more.



#113 NoStrings

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:20 AM

BTW, as someone who has not only been critical of Clean, and having been banned for it, I'd like to say that I don't see a damn thing wrong with what Alan wrote. Collisions and injuries are news, if you have any recollection of events in and around our bay in the past two years. Alan covered it. I didn't see him assigning blame, he just started asking questions and stimulating discussion. IMHO, nothing more to it than that.

 
"the J/120 was at fault for not anticipating what happens in a tight one-design fleet on his bow and possibly for not doing what he could to avoid contact"  
 
-MR.CLEAN, Posted 06 October 2013 - 07:20 AM

Hey, if a collision occurs, BOTH parties bear some responsibility, even if you're the ROW boat. Its in the rules. That said, this was a crash between two boats, each near the top of their respective fleets. IOW, it was a situation where neither boat was likely to blink. Now, R&R was found at fault after retiring...and everyone is good...except the injured parties. Now, if you sit back in the cold light of day and think about it, is there a way in which we can conduct mixed fleet races, where each class an race without their results being impacted by other classes, or having their rounding s run through by larger boats; and by virtue of doing so make things just a bit safer for everyone....or is it not worth the time of day? I really think this is what Clean is aiming for by bringing this accident front and center. Maybe it's because it's a friend...so be it, we all get spun up over family and friends.

#114 BobJ

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:37 AM

If the article didn't begin with slamming the regatta and end with slamming the club and its supporters, I might try to consider Clean's comments as helpful.  As it stands, he's still an ass and deserves however Norman responded to him.



#115 ProaSailor

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:40 AM

BTW, as someone who has not only been critical of Clean, and having been banned for it, I'd like to say that I don't see a damn thing wrong with what Alan wrote.

 
How about "Get fucked."?  (to krispy kreme, post #34, this thread)  Relentlessly offensive.  Absolutely unnecessary and unprofessional.



#116 tls

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:42 AM

Hey, if a collision occurs, BOTH parties bear some responsibility, even if you're the ROW boat. Its in the rules. 

 

This isn't quite true.  The under COLREGs and RRS the ROW boat has responsibilities to avoid a collision if possible, but that does not mean that the collision does not happen... or that the ROW is legally liable for damages.



#117 coaster1

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:04 PM

COLREGs do not apply to two boats racing.

 

By entering the race, both boats agree to race under the RRS as stated in the NOR/SI's.



#118 NorCalLaser

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:44 PM

BTW, as someone who has not only been critical of Clean, and having been banned for it, I'd like to say that I don't see a damn thing wrong with what Alan wrote.

 
How about "Get fucked."?  (to krispy kreme, post #34, this thread)  Relentlessly offensive.  Absolutely unnecessary and unprofessional.

+1. yep, and any attempt to pin any responsibility on the host YC is simply Mr C trying to stir up shit.

 

Theres a pretty large amount of marine traffic on SF Bay-- giant container ships routinely bisect race courses; daredevil kiteboards pushing the limits; idiot cruisers oblivious to others, etc.  its common knowledge that any sort of navigational mistakes, mechanical failures or brain farts on that bay can result in severe injury or death.  dont want to take that risk? stay on the couch or go race el toros inside the breakwater at ryc or radio controlled boats at lake merritt...



#119 nolvad

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:40 PM

Fixed!
 
M1phMhK.png

+1

#120 Guitar

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:41 PM

What are we to to with the Three Bridge Fiasco, rename it?



#121 Bill R

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:19 PM

I got taught to sail by a master mariner (merchant navy) he told me what the rules of the road were, but he said the number one rule is treat everybody on the water as an idiot and if you have right of way and nothing is happening then you have to do something about it. I was also told that if you have an accident, crash whatever some of the responsibility will be on you, even if you were the right of way boat.

To me the two boats that crashed are the two at fault, not the race committee, etc It comes down to the skippers of each boat. It in my opinion wrong to try and pass the buck.

#122 NewDogBalls

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:04 PM

Has anyone talked to the owners of said boats and seen what has been done to help with insurance claims, injuries, etc.  Oh, wait, that would be the facts and those don't stir the pot and drive site traffic.....

 

BTW Clean you are 100% behind bashing the core of our sport in larger keel boats in favor of promoting sport boats.  I wonder if you're paid by the manufactures, classes, etc to do so?  Regardless, you do an amazing job of pissing off the majority sailors out there who are keel boaters.



#123 Steam Flyer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:47 PM

I realize it is easy to miss the point what with all the lightning striking and the snipers sniping.  

 

Hopefully, those that actually run multi-class regattas will recognize the point, which is:

 

Planing one-design fleets continue to grow and fill out events that contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties.  ... ....

 

Whose fault it is under the RRS will not matter much to the media, to the insurance companies deciding on whether to renew YC or individual policies, or to the coast guard.  

 

...

 

The point, we have arrived at a society which thinks "responsibility" is a bad word.

 

WTF difference does it make if the PRO tells all the racers "you boys be careful out there, y'hear"

WTF difference does it make what angles sportsboats sail at?

WTF difference does make who the media wants to interview most?

 

What matters here is that two skippers were racing with no idea what lay in front of them. Two skippers who did not take responsibility for their vessel and the human beings on board.

 

The J-122 skipper had R-O-W but as pointed out, that does not relieve him of the obligation to avoid a collision. The M-32 skipper should be banned from sailing for a year, or at the very least get his insurance jacked up. I do not want to share the water with dumbasses who can't look where they're going, and it makes it worse when they think of themselves as hot-shit in a fancy fast boat.

 

Clean is merely slobbering over who has the coolest toy, very predictable; the whole issue of what it means to be in charge of a vessel goes completely over his head (not to pick especially on Clean, it goes over many peoples' heads).

 

Both skippers deserve to be called out for the marginally competent dumbasses they are, no matter how many trophies they've won. -THAT- would be journailistic integrity IMHO

 

FB- Doug



#124 familysailor

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:02 PM

 

I realize it is easy to miss the point what with all the lightning striking and the snipers sniping.  

 

Hopefully, those that actually run multi-class regattas will recognize the point, which is:

 

Planing one-design fleets continue to grow and fill out events that contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties.  ... ....

 

Whose fault it is under the RRS will not matter much to the media, to the insurance companies deciding on whether to renew YC or individual policies, or to the coast guard.  

 

...

 

The point, we have arrived at a society which thinks "responsibility" is a bad word.

 

WTF difference does it make if the PRO tells all the racers "you boys be careful out there, y'hear"

WTF difference does it make what angles sportsboats sail at?

WTF difference does make who the media wants to interview most?

 

What matters here is that two skippers were racing with no idea what lay in front of them. Two skippers who did not take responsibility for their vessel and the human beings on board.

 

The J-122 skipper had R-O-W but as pointed out, that does not relieve him of the obligation to avoid a collision. The M-32 skipper should be banned from sailing for a year, or at the very least get his insurance jacked up. I do not want to share the water with dumbasses who can't look where they're going, and it makes it worse when they think of themselves as hot-shit in a fancy fast boat.

 

Clean is merely slobbering over who has the coolest toy, very predictable; the whole issue of what it means to be in charge of a vessel goes completely over his head (not to pick especially on Clean, it goes over many peoples' heads).

 

Both skippers deserve to be called out for the marginally competent dumbasses they are, no matter how many trophies they've won. -THAT- would be journailistic integrity IMHO

 

FB- Doug

Just a little correction:

The little speedsters were M-24s in this saga.

Ta.



#125 CoffeeJohnny

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:30 PM

I realize it is easy to miss the point what with all the lightning striking and the snipers sniping.  

 

Hopefully, those that actually run multi-class regattas will recognize the point, which is:

 

Planing one-design fleets continue to grow and fill out events that contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties.  At BBS, we saw the results of a burdened boat not seeing another boat on a collision course and a ROW boat not seeing another boat on a collision course.   We also saw a PRO who failed to either educate all the fleets on this possibility and/or failed to keep them from sailing through each other's courses.  Could it be an isolated incident?  Of course it could, and maybe we'll never see a young man with a fractured vertebra resulting from a big boat vs. little boat collision again.  From where I sit, spending most of my weekends at events like this, it seems plain as day that we will see someone die sooner or later from exactly this kind of crash.

 

Whose fault it is under the RRS will not matter much to the media, to the insurance companies deciding on whether to renew YC or individual policies, or to the coast guard.  

 

Serious question:  If the Melges crew had been killed in this crash, or become paraplegic (which could very easily have happened), what do you think would be happening right now?  Do you think Norm Davant would still be sending me bitchy e-mails for being so nasty to him? Do you think I would be the only one pointing out that the RO could have anticipated something like this happening and planned for it better?  Give me a fucking break.

 

Christ even NoStrings wants to echo me but he's too afraid of the SF anti-SA coalition to bother. 

 

There can be worse things than a J120 coming through your race course: http://knutsenoas.co.../hanne-knutsen/

 

The defence barrister of the skipper of the yacht involved might be interested in your argument that it was all the fault of the PRO for setting a course through an area of water someone else was also likely to use.



#126 Steam Flyer

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:34 PM

 

 

I realize it is easy to miss the point what with all the lightning striking and the snipers sniping.  

 

Hopefully, those that actually run multi-class regattas will recognize the point, which is:

 

Planing one-design fleets continue to grow and fill out events that contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties.  ... ....

 

Whose fault it is under the RRS will not matter much to the media, to the insurance companies deciding on whether to renew YC or individual policies, or to the coast guard.  

 

...

 

The point, we have arrived at a society which thinks "responsibility" is a bad word.

 

WTF difference does it make if the PRO tells all the racers "you boys be careful out there, y'hear"

WTF difference does it make what angles sportsboats sail at?

WTF difference does make who the media wants to interview most?

 

What matters here is that two skippers were racing with no idea what lay in front of them. Two skippers who did not take responsibility for their vessel and the human beings on board.

 

The J-122 skipper had R-O-W but as pointed out, that does not relieve him of the obligation to avoid a collision. The M-32 skipper should be banned from sailing for a year, or at the very least get his insurance jacked up. I do not want to share the water with dumbasses who can't look where they're going, and it makes it worse when they think of themselves as hot-shit in a fancy fast boat.

 

Clean is merely slobbering over who has the coolest toy, very predictable; the whole issue of what it means to be in charge of a vessel goes completely over his head (not to pick especially on Clean, it goes over many peoples' heads).

 

Both skippers deserve to be called out for the marginally competent dumbasses they are, no matter how many trophies they've won. -THAT- would be journailistic integrity IMHO

 

FB- Doug

Just a little correction:

The little speedsters were M-24s in this saga.

Ta.

 

Don't interrupt me when I'm trying to score some warning points, here!!

B)

 

Sorry about that, thanks for the correction

 

FB- Doug



#127 familysailor

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:53 PM

I think you'll need to be a liitle more viscious in general or target Ed and/or the unClean one specifically. Quoting facts an asking for documentation works too.



#128 mad

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:10 PM

Has anyone talked to the owners of said boats and seen what has been done to help with insurance claims, injuries, etc.

And you really think the owners want to share those details with others?

#129 BobJ

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:26 AM

I think you'll need to be a liitle more viscious in general or target Ed and/or the unClean one specifically. Quoting facts an asking for documentation works too.

 

It's getting to be like Whack-a-Mole with those two and their FP "contributions."



#130 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:07 PM

keep whacking away Bob; you're certainly good at that



#131 DISHONEST ASSHOLE

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:44 AM


 


 
I realize it is easy to miss the point what with all the lightning striking and the snipers sniping.  
 
Hopefully, those that actually run multi-class regattas will recognize the point, which is:
 
Planing one-design fleets continue to grow and fill out events that contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties.  ... ....
 
Whose fault it is under the RRS will not matter much to the media, to the insurance companies deciding on whether to renew YC or individual policies, or to the coast guard.  
 ...

 
The point, we have arrived at a society which thinks "responsibility" is a bad word.
 
WTF difference does it make if the PRO tells all the racers "you boys be careful out there, y'hear"
WTF difference does it make what angles sportsboats sail at?
WTF difference does make who the media wants to interview most?
 
What matters here is that two skippers were racing with no idea what lay in front of them. Two skippers who did not take responsibility for their vessel and the human beings on board.
 
The J-122 skipper had R-O-W but as pointed out, that does not relieve him of the obligation to avoid a collision. The M-32 skipper should be banned from sailing for a year, or at the very least get his insurance jacked up. I do not want to share the water with dumbasses who can't look where they're going, and it makes it worse when they think of themselves as hot-shit in a fancy fast boat.
 
Clean is merely slobbering over who has the coolest toy, very predictable; the whole issue of what it means to be in charge of a vessel goes completely over his head (not to pick especially on Clean, it goes over many peoples' heads).
 
Both skippers deserve to be called out for the marginally competent dumbasses they are, no matter how many trophies they've won. -THAT- would be journailistic integrity IMHO
 
FB- Doug
Just a little correction:
The little speedsters were M-24s in this saga.
Ta.
 
Don't interrupt me when I'm trying to score some warning points, here!!
B)
 
Sorry about that, thanks for the correction
 
FB- Doug

And it was a J120, not 122. Deduct another point.

Well said but funny it's (and others) all a rehash of what was said here 2 days ago. Expect the colregs vs. rrs discussion comes around again soon

#132 DISHONEST ASSHOLE

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:52 AM

Has anyone talked to the owners of said boats and seen what has been done to help with insurance claims, injuries, etc.  Oh, wait, that would be the facts and those don't stir the pot and drive site traffic.....
 
BTW Clean you are 100% behind bashing the core of our sport in larger keel boats in favor of promoting sport boats.  I wonder if you're paid by the manufactures, classes, etc to do so?  Regardless, you do an amazing job of pissing off the majority sailors out there who are keel boaters.



You havent realized this is a dinghy forum? For instance All the praising of CRW and pissing on KWRW over number of entries while average loa differs by about 4m.

#133 NoStrings

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:40 AM

BTW, as someone who has not only been critical of Clean, and having been banned for it, I'd like to say that I don't see a damn thing wrong with what Alan wrote.

 
How about "Get fucked."?  (to krispy kreme, post #34, this thread)  Relentlessly offensive.  Absolutely unnecessary and unprofessional.

Well, that's neither the first time that Joanie has heard those words, nor the first time that she's used them. This is one of those HTFU moments. She wasn't raised in a convent.

#134 Gypsyclubjuggler

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:24 PM

 

BTW, as someone who has not only been critical of Clean, and having been banned for it, I'd like to say that I don't see a damn thing wrong with what Alan wrote.

 
How about "Get fucked."?  (to krispy kreme, post #34, this thread)  Relentlessly offensive.  Absolutely unnecessary and unprofessional.

Well, that's neither the first time that Joanie has heard those words, nor the first time that she's used them. This is one of those HTFU moments. She wasn't raised in a convent.

So we should all call each other cunts just because we can?  What a cunt.



#135 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:39 PM

Now you have it, cunt.



#136 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:41 PM

ProaSailor, on 08 Oct 2013 - 22:44, said:snapback.png

  "Relentlessly offensive.  Absolutely unnecessary and unprofessional."

 

By the way, thanks!  I usually pass over your posts for obvious reasons, but finally, some solid compliments from the Proist.  Or was it Proust.  I don't remember.  Anyway, thanks again.



#137 BCR

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

I got taught to sail by a master mariner (merchant navy) he told me what the rules of the road were, but he said the number one rule is treat everybody on the water as an idiot and if you have right of way and nothing is happening then you have to do something about it. I was also told that if you have an accident, crash whatever some of the responsibility will be on you, even if you were the right of way boat.

To me the two boats that crashed are the two at fault, not the race committee, etc It comes down to the skippers of each boat. It in my opinion wrong to try and pass the buck.

+1



#138 Steam Flyer

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

 

 


 


 
I realize it is easy to miss the point what with all the lightning striking and the snipers sniping.  
 
Hopefully, those that actually run multi-class regattas will recognize the point, which is:
 
Planing one-design fleets continue to grow and fill out events that contain big, heavy boats with sailors unused to negotiating the speeds and angles of high performance sporties.  ... ....
 
Whose fault it is under the RRS will not matter much to the media, to the insurance companies deciding on whether to renew YC or individual policies, or to the coast guard.  
 ...

 
The point, we have arrived at a society which thinks "responsibility" is a bad word.
 
WTF difference does it make if the PRO tells all the racers "you boys be careful out there, y'hear"
WTF difference does it make what angles sportsboats sail at?
WTF difference does make who the media wants to interview most?
 
What matters here is that two skippers were racing with no idea what lay in front of them. Two skippers who did not take responsibility for their vessel and the human beings on board.
 
The J-122 skipper had R-O-W but as pointed out, that does not relieve him of the obligation to avoid a collision. The M-32 skipper should be banned from sailing for a year, or at the very least get his insurance jacked up. I do not want to share the water with dumbasses who can't look where they're going, and it makes it worse when they think of themselves as hot-shit in a fancy fast boat.
 
Clean is merely slobbering over who has the coolest toy, very predictable; the whole issue of what it means to be in charge of a vessel goes completely over his head (not to pick especially on Clean, it goes over many peoples' heads).
 
Both skippers deserve to be called out for the marginally competent dumbasses they are, no matter how many trophies they've won. -THAT- would be journailistic integrity IMHO
 
FB- Doug
Just a little correction:
The little speedsters were M-24s in this saga.
Ta.
 
Don't interrupt me when I'm trying to score some warning points, here!!
B)
 
Sorry about that, thanks for the correction
 
FB- Doug

And it was a J120, not 122. Deduct another point.

Well said but funny it's (and others) all a rehash of what was said here 2 days ago. Expect the colregs vs. rrs discussion comes around again soon

 

 

Nah, too busy calling each other cunts.

 

I had to chime in on the "skipper's responsibility" theme though, if I skip stuff like this they'll take away my SoSec. Funny thing though, old fogeys who believe in responsibility seem to still win some races and don't crash their fuckin' boats anywhere near as often

 

FB- Doug



#139 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:47 PM

'old fogeys who believe in responsibility' is like a Fox News argument.

 

 

Is that your answer to someone raising the question:  Should those that run events take measures to prevent collisions as much as possible assuming it doesn't make their racing bad or cost too much in time, manpower, or money to do?  I think they should.  You think they shouldn't, it seems.

 

Do you really think anyone here doesn't 'believe in responsibility'?  What does that even mean?



#140 Steam Flyer

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:12 PM

'old fogeys who believe in responsibility' is like a Fox News argument.

 

 

Is that your answer to someone raising the question:  Should those that run events take measures to prevent collisions as much as possible assuming it doesn't make their racing bad or cost too much in time, manpower, or money to do?  I think they should.  You think they shouldn't, it seems.

 

Do you really think anyone here doesn't 'believe in responsibility'?  What does that even mean?

 

Yes, I think plenty of people don't "believe in responsibility" in the sense that they don't think it applies to them. When bad stuff happens because you have your head wedged up your ass, don't blame the Race Officers or the other skipper who had R-O-W or the other skipper who had plastic kayaks tied down on his deck or the weatherman. If you're driving the boat and the boat crashes, it's your fault.

 

Totally separate question from "Should Race Officers try to set up courses that don't encourage boats to head-on into each other" yes of course. OTOH back in the old days we not only sailed barefoot in the snow, up hill both ways, but we sometimes had race courses where Class X was rounding a buoy one way and Class Y was rounding it the other way. Nobody crashed.

 

This is one reason why I am grateful that sailing is a shrinking sport. Being out on the water is not a place people who are too busy tweeting on their iPhones to look where they're going. And that seems to apply to many many people these days. Just the other day I watched a man in a restaurant spill a cup of coffee on himself because he was engrossed in fiddling with some little electronic gizmo (I don't know and don't care what it was). He cussed at the waitress for setting the cup down in front of him!

 

It's amazing what you see when you actually look at what's happening around you... pretty funny shit, some times

 

FB- Doug



#141 Parma

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:44 PM

'old fogeys who believe in responsibility' is like a Fox News argument.

 

 

Is that your answer to someone raising the question:  Should those that run events take measures to prevent collisions as much as possible assuming it doesn't make their racing bad or cost too much in time, manpower, or money to do?  I think they should.  You think they shouldn't, it seems.

 

Do you really think anyone here doesn't 'believe in responsibility'?  What does that even mean?

 

Has anyone not been in a situation where the are separate courses that overlap to some extent? Did you crash into another boat? Did you just assume that everything is fine and the other boats don't need watching?

 

Looks like Fox news won that argument.



#142 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:07 PM

It's an inherit trait of the sport boats to have a big blind spot to leward. Once that great big assym goes up with a low hanging foot and the crew is all huddled and/or hiking in the optimum weight distribution spot. It's hard to see to leward and forward. That's a pretty big risk that just keeps escallating proportionately to the amount of traffic in the immediate vicinity.

 

As much as I can on the Henderson 30, I'll be lying to leward and just  aft of the beam to observe for obstructions, vessels and other marks. The bow person is always covering the windward forward quarter. But, it can be very difficult at times to see everything to leward.

 

On bigger boats the weight isn't as critical and the foot of the kite does not obstruct as much. But, on sportboats there is a definite blind spot that the driver, trimmer and tactician all need to keep track of.






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