Jump to content


J24 - so what would you do to make the class better?


  • Please log in to reply
95 replies to this topic

#1 stinger

stinger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 307 posts

Posted 30 September 2013 - 03:22 AM

Ok, what would you do to make the class better and to get better attendance?

 

Personally, after being a new father for the first time, I would love to see baby sitting services :)  We just missed two great years of regattas!



#2 Gouvernail

Gouvernail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,593 posts
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:margaritas, hippie chicks, durable flying discs for retriever dog play

Posted 30 September 2013 - 07:29 AM

The J-24 and. J-22 need a builder who is dedicated to making affordable toys.
It would not be easy to make a boat that is the same speed as other J-24s while keeping the price down but the current building methods and resulting prices destroy any chance of building new toys whose price makes sense to large numbers of buyers.

I could say this court virtually any sailboat.

The saint game dill boom again when we figure
Out how to make inexpensive, reliable , fun sailing toys.
Somewhere around $15,000 for a J-22 and $20,000 for a J-24 is probably the highest price at which high numbers of toys can be sold

#3 stinger

stinger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 307 posts

Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:39 PM

My question is more about how to get the already built boats to come out and play.  



#4 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,848 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 30 September 2013 - 05:38 PM

Get young teams on good boats-

#5 eliboat

eliboat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 975 posts

Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:23 PM

Turn it into a double handed class. The fact remains that sailing j24s is not a whole lot of fun for anyone but the driver, and even that leaves a. Lot to be desired. 5 people on that thing is ridiculous, and when there are other options out there, it's a tough sell. I know I routinely turn down offers to race j24s because it's just plain uncomfortable. The most fun I've had on a j24 is sailing phrf double handed. That was actually a blast.

#6 notallthere

notallthere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,662 posts
  • Location:im on a boat!
  • Interests:any sport that starts with S

Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:23 PM

Eliminate the silly "safety" rules requirements.

 

Sail purchase limitations (which I am generally NOT a fan of). I would say 2-3 sails/year, 4 sails first year of ownership. 

 

Work with the sailmakers to find ways to make Genoas last longer. Higher DPI, minimum mil mylars, Dacron only, should all be considered.

 

Encourage more women and juniors via social side as well as weight rules.

 

Market the class better. It really is a fun boat that needs a team to sail well. Yes, it is uncomfortable and challenging, but so is a Thistle and they are growing!



#7 BalticBandit

BalticBandit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,728 posts

Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:28 PM

Do some team racing.  Team racing really ups the fun level



#8 B.Wilkinson

B.Wilkinson

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 248 posts
  • Location:Noank, CT

Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:32 PM

This is one of the biggest things. As a younger sailor I look almost every day to try and find that 24 that I can actually afford. Im trying to get through four years of college right now and toys are expensive to get. The other problem that im seeing as im getting more involved with college sailing is that dinghy college sailing is killing potential for future big boat sailors. Nobodys going to to sail a 420 or fj after college and the short course fleet races aren't happening after college. The problem is nobody wants to go sail the big boats because all the friends and most of the competition is in the stupid dinghys, but they are missing out on the big boats and most stop sailing after college. This leads to low numbers of younger teams. It needs to be way more affordable for the young guys to go and play. The lightinings have really caught onto something with the boat grant program....

Get young teams on good boats-



#9 stinger

stinger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 307 posts

Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:39 PM

So maybe it's time that the j24 class gets into the college sailing scene.  Maybe a pan am style non dinghy entry for college sailors.



#10 Chaise Lounge

Chaise Lounge

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Location:Rockland Maine
  • Interests:sailing! and taking photographs

Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:25 AM

My question is more about how to get the already built boats to come out and play.  


Rip the freaking deck off, so the other 4 people on the boat don't have to crawl around like monkeys!!

That would go a long long way!

#11 Grind4Beer

Grind4Beer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 188 posts

Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:59 AM

Improve the class/boat but keep it J24? ...

 

Two things most unliked about the J24: 

- cockpit/footwell too short, needs to be 2ft longer

- rounded deck fwd and beams, needs to be flat

 

Don't misread that, I own a J24, and it's the sailboat equivalent of an army surplus Willys-Jeep.

Great boat, sturdy boat, go anywhere boat, flip it if you eff-up boat, not a comfy-ride boat.

 

If I had a couple-five thousand in stupid-money, I'd refit the back half like an IC-24, redeck the front half sort of J30-ish (flat deck at bow and sides, slope the coachline into the fwd hatch, add 2x12" windows by the seahood, bolt a 200# bulb on the keel, and a 2-3ft articulating bowsprit. (All that just so I could say it started as a J24 ... )

 

Not that it would be practical to convert the class to that, but it might be more fun to sail ...

 

G4B



#12 atefooterz

atefooterz

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,832 posts
  • Location:Aus 2154
  • Interests:many

Posted 01 October 2013 - 06:23 AM

This is one of the biggest things. As a younger sailor I look almost every day to try and find that 24 that I can actually afford. Im trying to get through four years of college right now and toys are expensive to get. The other problem that im seeing as im getting more involved with college sailing is that dinghy college sailing is killing potential for future big boat sailors. Nobodys going to to sail a 420 or fj after college and the short course fleet races aren't happening after college. The problem is nobody wants to go sail the big boats because all the friends and most of the competition is in the stupid dinghys, but they are missing out on the big boats and most stop sailing after college. This leads to low numbers of younger teams. It needs to be way more affordable for the young guys to go and play. The lightinings have really caught onto something with the boat grant program....

Get young teams on good boats-

Maybe more US sailors need to migrate to fast cool dingies (foiler Moths) & (skifflike classes) & foiling cats, not just sail stupid ones?



#13 Cavandish

Cavandish

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 927 posts
  • Location:Upstate NY

Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:01 AM

This is one of the biggest things. As a younger sailor I look almost every day to try and find that 24 that I can actually afford. Im trying to get through four years of college right now and toys are expensive to get. The other problem that im seeing as im getting more involved with college sailing is that dinghy college sailing is killing potential for future big boat sailors. Nobodys going to to sail a 420 or fj after college and the short course fleet races aren't happening after college. The problem is nobody wants to go sail the big boats because all the friends and most of the competition is in the stupid dinghys, but they are missing out on the big boats and most stop sailing after college. This leads to low numbers of younger teams. It needs to be way more affordable for the young guys to go and play. The lightinings have really caught onto something with the boat grant program....

Get young teams on good boats-

 

My stepfather just sold our J-24 for ~$5kish. It was an old (sail #355), but very solid boat with a decent sail inventory and a good record on the course, most likely could have gotten a couple thousand more. So five people...in it for a grand a piece....pretty affordable, cheaper than a new Laser.

 

Until the sails wear out or something breaks. 8k will get a decent boat these days if one is willing to travel for it. The used market is what is keeping the class afloat, with so many boats out there price of entry is low considering a new boat will set some sucker back $40-45,000 for a 30 year old design that abuses the crew, requires a gorilla on the genoa and everyone else to be light enough to make weight.

 

The biggest threat is that, as the bulk of the fleet gets older, the decent boats available will fall away and for the money there are too many better options for the buyers of new boats. Most know that one does not "invest" in a boat, we pay into a game and hope for some kind of rebate when we sell it to the next guy. What is the depreciation on a new J24 the second it crosses its first start line? Figure in $43k for the boat, $2500 for sails and $XXX on the sail comp because the class doesn't allow cheaper options.

 

Speaking of those dinghy guys, like myself...

J70 is near the same price new? Vipers, VXones and Shaw 650s (maybe on the Shaw) for less...how is their resale? No need for a fullsize tow vehicle?

 

I don't have a solution beyond simply enjoying it while it lasts, i don't hate the boat and changing things now wouldn't help as it is the used yet competitive old boats for cheap that are keeping the class a great OD option. Sadly that isn't sustainable forever.



#14 Chaise Lounge

Chaise Lounge

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Location:Rockland Maine
  • Interests:sailing! and taking photographs

Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:22 AM

Improve the class/boat but keep it J24? ...
 
Two things most unliked about the J24: 
- cockpit/footwell too short, needs to be 2ft longer
- rounded deck fwd and beams, needs to be flat
 
Don't misread that, I own a J24, and it's the sailboat equivalent of an army surplus Willys-Jeep.
Great boat, sturdy boat, go anywhere boat, flip it if you eff-up boat, not a comfy-ride boat.
 
If I had a couple-five thousand in stupid-money, I'd refit the back half like an IC-24, redeck the front half sort of J30-ish (flat deck at bow and sides, slope the coachline into the fwd hatch, add 2x12" windows by the seahood, bolt a 200# bulb on the keel, and a 2-3ft articulating bowsprit. (All that just so I could say it started as a J24 ... )
 
Not that it would be practical to convert the class to that, but it might be more fun to sail ...
 
G4B


In fact we have considered ripping the deck off a boat here locally, there are many around, to be had cheap, to race in weeknight round the buoys in the harbor. May still do it.

#15 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 01 October 2013 - 09:30 AM

Quit trying to mess with the boat; the boat isn't the class, the people are.  We know changing the cockpit won't do it, the IC's are still withering in the vine.  What we need are more 20-30 somethings racing with us.  Recruiting and education new people into sailing and therefore into the class will benefit us more than a new genoa material or getting rid of a hacksaw.  

 

The biggest thing I see we could do is to use the class structure as a resource for teaching and promotional materials such as "how to sail a raceboat" courses that are filled with 24s and promotional for clubs and media that could be altered for each clubs use.  Every a newbie sees a sail, it should have a J-24 emblem on it.

 

There's always going to be easier, faster, cheaper boats out there so changing parts won't grow the class.



#16 sail611

sail611

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 100 posts

Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:15 PM

The best thing to do is get local young guys out in your local fleets.  Help them find a boat if they want to join the class.  Yeah, I know, we are all busy.  But spending the time to mentor a potential young owner and help them get into a boat --you know, look a potential purchase over with them, show them how to rig the boat efficiently, offer some boat handling tips, help them get the mast up the first time, be in general a decent person, that sort of thing--will increase participation, and that will grow the class.  

 

I also think if local clubs would/could decide it a good idea to buy used 24's and lease them to sailors with the option of purchase.  A club I belonged to a few years ago did that with Star boats.  The Star fleet went from 3 to 6 in two years.  That's 100% people.  How cool would it be if your local 24 fleet increased in size 100% in two years?  That would be some good racing right there.

 

It is totally possible to keep this class great.  Get young-ish people into the boats with young-ish friends and pretty girls who like to drink Rum (those of you who sail out of EYC in Cleveland know of The Mystery Machine and her crew) and you have a recipe for fun.

 

At lest that makes sense to this  30 yr old who has played both roles in the above rant (except the pretty girl part...I don't look good in a dress)



#17 j24vt

j24vt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,855 posts
  • Location:Vermont
  • Interests:J24s

Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:56 AM

Make cup holders in the cockpit a class requirement



#18 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 547 posts

Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:32 AM

Make cup holders in the cockpit a class requirement

That's what the 5th crew member is for. "Here, hold this". They are not doing anything else except hiking.

#19 DennisY

DennisY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Location:Central Virginia
  • Interests:Small high performance mono's and tri's. Red heads.

Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:28 PM

I suspect one problem is the earlier mentioned 4-5 person crew on a 24 boat. I have considered (and rejected it) as a buy candidate simply because of that crew issue. Rounding up 3 - 4 like minded individuals (in my area at least) sit around uncomfortably doing little to nothing for a couple hours on a Wednesday or Friday night or worse on a weekend isn't going to work. Unless you are driving it is boring and mildly painful. (I know, I've done it often enough). Personally I'm looking in the 18-23' range for a decent performer that can be sailed two handed. The 24 ain't it.



#20 stinger

stinger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 307 posts

Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:34 PM

I suspect one problem is the earlier mentioned 4-5 person crew on a 24 boat. I have considered (and rejected it) as a buy candidate simply because of that crew issue. Rounding up 3 - 4 like minded individuals (in my area at least) sit around uncomfortably doing little to nothing for a couple hours on a Wednesday or Friday night or worse on a weekend isn't going to work. Unless you are driving it is boring and mildly painful. (I know, I've done it often enough). Personally I'm looking in the 18-23' range for a decent performer that can be sailed two handed. The 24 ain't it.

It's probably best for the class that you didn't buy one if you feel so strongly about it.  This discussion is about what we can do, what regattas can do and what the executive can do to make it better.  No reason to talk to the boat cause we can't change the boat.



#21 Chaise Lounge

Chaise Lounge

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Location:Rockland Maine
  • Interests:sailing! and taking photographs

Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:47 PM

I suspect one problem is the earlier mentioned 4-5 person crew on a 24 boat. I have considered (and rejected it) as a buy candidate simply because of that crew issue. Rounding up 3 - 4 like minded individuals (in my area at least) sit around uncomfortably doing little to nothing for a couple hours on a Wednesday or Friday night or worse on a weekend isn't going to work. Unless you are driving it is boring and mildly painful. (I know, I've done it often enough). Personally I'm looking in the 18-23' range for a decent performer that can be sailed two handed. The 24 ain't it.

It's probably best for the class that you didn't buy one if you feel so strongly about it.  This discussion is about what we can do, what regattas can do and what the executive can do to make it better.  No reason to talk to the boat cause we can't change the boat.

well I guess I take back my comments too about "ripping the freaking deck off" as well.  I did not buy a J24 because of that deck, I bought a J80... but it is too bad that there are so many old J24's around in peoples back yards etc.  But starting to rip off decks and have this all be class legal is most likely not at all practical.  So I don't really have any thoughts about what the class can do.  I did just volunteer at the J/24 NA's a week or so back in Newport.. 46 boats, great competition, fun to watch...



#22 notallthere

notallthere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,662 posts
  • Location:im on a boat!
  • Interests:any sport that starts with S

Posted 03 October 2013 - 06:50 PM

Everyone who complains about the lack of comfort sailing a J-24 must have such limited sailing experience to be laughable. If it hurts, you're doing it wrong!



#23 DSYHS

DSYHS

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:04 PM

It hurts a lot! The j24 has the questionable honour of being the least fun sailboat I've ever sailed (did bow) on.



#24 Chaise Lounge

Chaise Lounge

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Location:Rockland Maine
  • Interests:sailing! and taking photographs

Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:06 PM

It hurts a lot! The j24 has the questionable honour of being the least fun sailboat I've ever sailed (did bow) on.

yes but were you laughing?  Or was someone else laughing?  It seems there needs to be someone laughing if it hurts, because you may just (have been) doing it all wrong...



#25 notallthere

notallthere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,662 posts
  • Location:im on a boat!
  • Interests:any sport that starts with S

Posted 03 October 2013 - 10:08 PM

I am sorry, but a Thistle is WAY more painful. PC (as seen in my profile pic) even more painful! 

 

What specifically is painful on a J-24?



#26 tommays

tommays

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 902 posts
  • Location:Northport

Posted 03 October 2013 - 10:17 PM

MATTHEW.jpg

 

Just terrible you can see the pain 



#27 JavaJoe

JavaJoe

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 68 posts

Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:25 AM

The 5th person is driven by the real problem with the J/24, that huge ass genoa.  It requires big trimmers and rail meat.  I really like the "Tim Healy" sail plan.  It is a big advancement over the 1979 way of thinking.  

 

Once you get the genoa off the boat, it's not as critical to have max crew weight.  It's not critical to have a linebacker as your trimmer.  It opens up your crew to a new dynamic.  But if your linebacker trimmer and linebacker tactician want to sail w/you, go for it.

 

When a class no longer has a long list of pros and "aspiring to be pros", how does it evolve to still be inclusive and vibrant? The problem with making any change in such a old, large class is that the people in the class don't really see the problems.  They are *IN* the class because (mostly) they like it and the rules as they currently exist. Otherwise they'd be on different boats.  But the question is where will the class be in 10 years?  Will the linebackers still want to get beat up in a J/24 when they are 45? 55?  So how do you get the boat mildly more modern and welcoming to a broader spectrum of owners and sailors?

The price of entry is right.  With a reasonable sail plan the boat is actually pretty nice to drive, and not too bad on crew, and it becomes more woman and junior friendly. The class already great sailors willing to help the new and bottom 1/3rd. 

 

So suggestions are

 

1. New sail plan - no genoa (what was the last 'hot' boat with a genoa anyway?)

2. Remove equipment from boat weight

3. Eliminate crew weight limit

4. Sail limits (3/year)

5. Match racing clinics/circuits - with Juniors class.



#28 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:56 AM

Classes that have made radical changes have lost members (Snipe, Laser), old classes that have kept their identity have survived (Star, 505).  It makes no sense, in my opinion, to change the boat which will certainly cause a loss of members for the uncertain possibility of gaining a few.  People that don't like the genoa get into different classes, see the IC (although all the ick's around here run genoas).  

 

The attention needs to be paid to the people, not the boats.  Education, recruitment and regatta support to show that 24's not only have the greatest racing but the greatest parties.  Quit trying to make the boat more comfortable for old fat men and recruit some hot girls.  Then you'll get the guys to necessary to pull the strings.



#29 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,848 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 04 October 2013 - 01:04 AM

It hurts a lot! The j24 has the questionable honour of being the least fun sailboat I've ever sailed (did bow) on.


If you were injured, on the bow, you were most definitely doing it wrong... If you messed up your hair and got injured, you should retire

#30 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,848 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 04 October 2013 - 01:08 AM


 
What specifically is painful on a J-24?


Taking a lower ring to the ribs and wacking the back of your elbow on a winch.

Or

Nothing if you learn the right techniques

#31 Cavandish

Cavandish

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 927 posts
  • Location:Upstate NY

Posted 04 October 2013 - 01:54 AM

The "pain" comes from there being only two good routes for getting from rail to rail in a tack, for three people. The other pain might be the sink sitter position in light air, we never went there, but i've seen it done.

 

The boat is perfectly comfortable; for those in the cockpit, the guy on the bow going under the genoa and the other guy with his shoulder on the mast. That leaves the 5th guy going over the companionway, under the vang and more likely well bruised for the first half of the season or longer. The question isn't if this is worse than a thislte, it is whether or not it is worse than comparable keelboats.

 

Limited experience, but i would say yes, it is worse than most.

 

This alone i wouldn't think would be enough to doom the class, doesn't help, but it isn't really THAT bad.



#32 notallthere

notallthere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,662 posts
  • Location:im on a boat!
  • Interests:any sport that starts with S

Posted 04 October 2013 - 01:57 AM

Classes that have made radical changes have lost members (Snipe, Laser), old classes that have kept their identity have survived (Star, 505).  It makes no sense, in my opinion, to change the boat which will certainly cause a loss of members for the uncertain possibility of gaining a few.  People that don't like the genoa get into different classes, see the IC (although all the ick's around here run genoas).  
 
The attention needs to be paid to the people, not the boats.  Education, recruitment and regatta support to show that 24's not only have the greatest racing but the greatest parties.  Quit trying to make the boat more comfortable for old fat men and recruit some hot girls.  Then you'll get the guys to necessary to pull the strings.


not to nitpick, but the snipe has not made any radical changes to the boat in a very long time...

#33 notallthere

notallthere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,662 posts
  • Location:im on a boat!
  • Interests:any sport that starts with S

Posted 04 October 2013 - 02:01 AM

The "pain" comes from there being only two good routes for getting from rail to rail in a tack, for three people. The other pain might be the sink sitter position in light air, we never went there, but i've seen it done.
 
The boat is perfectly comfortable; for those in the cockpit, the guy on the bow going under the genoa and the other guy with his shoulder on the mast. That leaves the 5th guy going over the companionway, under the vang and more likely well bruised for the first half of the season or longer. The question isn't if this is worse than a thislte, it is whether or not it is worse than comparable keelboats.
 
Limited experience, but i would say yes, it is worse than most.
 
This alone i wouldn't think would be enough to doom the class, doesn't help, but it isn't really THAT bad.


any junior, or cute girl who does yoga can easily wiggle under the boom without injury. It is not the best position on the boat for a 250lb dude...

and lopez blocks ha e made it possible for smaller folks to trim effectivly with some practice

#34 Cavandish

Cavandish

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 927 posts
  • Location:Upstate NY

Posted 04 October 2013 - 03:02 AM

The "pain" comes from there being only two good routes for getting from rail to rail in a tack, for three people. The other pain might be the sink sitter position in light air, we never went there, but i've seen it done.
 
The boat is perfectly comfortable; for those in the cockpit, the guy on the bow going under the genoa and the other guy with his shoulder on the mast. That leaves the 5th guy going over the companionway, under the vang and more likely well bruised for the first half of the season or longer. The question isn't if this is worse than a thislte, it is whether or not it is worse than comparable keelboats.
 
Limited experience, but i would say yes, it is worse than most.
 
This alone i wouldn't think would be enough to doom the class, doesn't help, but it isn't really THAT bad.


any junior, or cute girl who does yoga can easily wiggle under the boom without injury. It is not the best position on the boat for a 250lb dude...

and lopez blocks ha e made it possible for smaller folks to trim effectivly with some practice

 

Unless your team has a designated tactition it IS the position for the least experienced person.

 

Which is what i think really hurts the reputation of the boat since for some one hopping around OPBs the only thing they will remember about that race they did on a J24 is having to dive through a hole.

 

For most teams, yeah a 100-115# female/junior/little guy would ideally be there. Especially if racing is strict OD rather than club PHRF with a modified weight limit.

 

IIRC the club weight limit was either specifically not enforcing the class limit or ~1000#....the comfort of that rail position is inversely proportional to the size/age/athleticism of the person having to do it.

I generally opted for laying flat on the bow and skirting the genoa, my comfort was directly related to the water temperature and sea state. On race nights where the wind and chop was up, the bowmen of J24s were easily the wettest in the PHRF fleet. This made it MORE fun to me, but i could see how others would disagree, especially in the frostbite season.

 

I had to look up Lopez blocks, how long have those been legal? Seems like an easy solution, but i've never sailed with them.



#35 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:12 AM

Classes that have made radical changes have lost members (Snipe, Laser), old classes that have kept their identity have survived (Star, 505).  It makes no sense, in my opinion, to change the boat which will certainly cause a loss of members for the uncertain possibility of gaining a few.  People that don't like the genoa get into different classes, see the IC (although all the ick's around here run genoas).  
 
The attention needs to be paid to the people, not the boats.  Education, recruitment and regatta support to show that 24's not only have the greatest racing but the greatest parties.  Quit trying to make the boat more comfortable for old fat men and recruit some hot girls.  Then you'll get the guys to necessary to pull the strings.


not to nitpick, but the snipe has not made any radical changes to the boat in a very long time...

Was quoting a Snipe sailor who had been in the class since the 50's and sold his boat a couple of years ago. His assertion was that the class had allowed a bunch of boats that otherwise wouldn't measure which obsoleted his relatively new hull.  He also ranted about a rule change some years ago that lowered the weight limit and obsoleted several thousand hulls.  Granted that I haven't followed it closely, just going with the insights of a long time class member.



#36 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:14 AM

 

The "pain" comes from there being only two good routes for getting from rail to rail in a tack, for three people. The other pain might be the sink sitter position in light air, we never went there, but i've seen it done.
 
The boat is perfectly comfortable; for those in the cockpit, the guy on the bow going under the genoa and the other guy with his shoulder on the mast. That leaves the 5th guy going over the companionway, under the vang and more likely well bruised for the first half of the season or longer. The question isn't if this is worse than a thislte, it is whether or not it is worse than comparable keelboats.
 
Limited experience, but i would say yes, it is worse than most.
 
This alone i wouldn't think would be enough to doom the class, doesn't help, but it isn't really THAT bad.


any junior, or cute girl who does yoga can easily wiggle under the boom without injury. It is not the best position on the boat for a 250lb dude...

and lopez blocks ha e made it possible for smaller folks to trim effectivly with some practice

 

Unless your team has a designated tactition it IS the position for the least experienced person.

 

Which is what i think really hurts the reputation of the boat since for some one hopping around OPBs the only thing they will remember about that race they did on a J24 is having to dive through a hole.

 

For most teams, yeah a 100-115# female/junior/little guy would ideally be there. Especially if racing is strict OD rather than club PHRF with a modified weight limit.

 

IIRC the club weight limit was either specifically not enforcing the class limit or ~1000#....the comfort of that rail position is inversely proportional to the size/age/athleticism of the person having to do it.

I generally opted for laying flat on the bow and skirting the genoa, my comfort was directly related to the water temperature and sea state. On race nights where the wind and chop was up, the bowmen of J24s were easily the wettest in the PHRF fleet. This made it MORE fun to me, but i could see how others would disagree, especially in the frostbite season.

 

I had to look up Lopez blocks, how long have those been legal? Seems like an easy solution, but i've never sailed with them.

It's a training thing.  My guys (late 20's, athletic) have spent quite a bit of time coordinating their moves for max effeciency.  Their discussions are pretty entertaining at times ("No, we have to spoon facing AFT") but they don't complain much about pain.  Buy better beer?

 

Try the Lopez; once adjusted (a PITA) and you pit guy is trained they are great.  I trim mine to the cabin top so the big guy can be on the rail faster and longer.



#37 ref

ref

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts
  • Location:pacific nw
  • Interests:od, some phrf

Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:37 AM

.make it a 4 person boat, if over 4 weight llimit of 800. then the jib would actually be used when the wind is in the high teens>



#38 Gouvernail

Gouvernail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,593 posts
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:margaritas, hippie chicks, durable flying discs for retriever dog play

Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:54 AM

Dive??
Doncha spin first and go feet first under the boom??

I don't see the snide of sitting on your ass and occasionally sliding under the boom.
And that's justify the middle two sailors

The biwmsn steps around the mast while helping the front sail and sheets

The trimmer yanks the genoa in and then sucks under the boom as the roll tack is flattened

The helmsman walks to the new side.

I guess some pussies want a deck arrangement with a car and seat like the old Tilt-a- Whirl

#39 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:10 AM

Dive??
Doncha spin first and go feet first under the boom??

I don't see the snide of sitting on your ass and occasionally sliding under the boom.
And that's justify the middle two sailors

The biwmsn steps around the mast while helping the front sail and sheets

The trimmer yanks the genoa in and then sucks under the boom as the roll tack is flattened

The helmsman walks to the new side.

I guess some pussies want a deck arrangement with a car and seat like the old Tilt-a- Whirl

Heck, the bowman can take a nap on the deck until the genny passes over them. As for going under the boom, I've always preferred the head first dive as it leaves a bit more time on the rail.  Although, I DID leave an ex-wife in the water when she missed the lifelines on the way past.



#40 knuckles

knuckles

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 962 posts

Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:43 PM

What would make the class 'better'?  Free gas cards for the guys that towed the furthest to the event.



#41 misconseption2348

misconseption2348

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 456 posts
  • Location:Toronto, CAN

Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:18 PM

Why is there still not a boat grant program to get young people into the class?  The lightning class has done this to great success over the last couple of years.



#42 DRDNA

DRDNA

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 360 posts
  • Location:Ventucky

Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:04 PM

well, here's a  cheap idea.  Make the bow pulpit and stern pulpits 18" so you can leap over it at the dock, lower the stanchion length to 18"-makes things easier on the foot of genoas.  They will also look better.  Sail with fewer people too.



#43 4deckgye

4deckgye

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:33 PM

well, here's a  cheap idea.  Make the bow pulpit and stern pulpits 18" so you can leap over it at the dock, lower the stanchion length to 18"-makes things easier on the foot of genoas.  They will also look better.  Sail with fewer people too.

 

Agreed, remove bow pulpit altogether, lower stanchion height, 



#44 Plumber

Plumber

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 332 posts

Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:09 PM

Classes that have made radical changes have lost members (Snipe, Laser), old classes that have kept their identity have survived (Star, 505).  It makes no sense, in my opinion, to change the boat which will certainly cause a loss of members for the uncertain possibility of gaining a few.  People that don't like the genoa get into different classes, see the IC (although all the ick's around here run genoas).  

 

The attention needs to be paid to the people, not the boats.  Education, recruitment and regatta support to show that 24's not only have the greatest racing but the greatest parties.  Quit trying to make the boat more comfortable for old fat men and recruit some hot girls.  Then you'll get the guys to necessary to pull the strings.

The Star hasn't changed because there's nothing wrong with it. Although, they did adjust the crew weight rule a few years back to encourage more fit athletic sailors. 



#45 Ned

Ned

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,512 posts
  • Location:Wahiawa, Oahu

Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:16 PM

Eliminate the differences between the J/24's and the J/25's.  The newer boats are lighter in the ends, so ballast them in the ends and make them pitch more to slow them down.  Otherwise, one boat shows up and kills the fleet.  

 

And get rid of the weigh limit. 

 

And require switching to jibs from the genoa at a certain fixed wind speed determined by the race committee. They fly a flag. 



#46 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:38 AM

Look guys, it's not the freakin' boat.  It's the way we sail it and the people that sail it.  THAT'S what we need to promote.  If the class would get together some of the bright children that are handy with the promotional crap, we could blow a lot of the other classes out of the water.  The strengths of this class are a low barrier to entry, great racing and people that will help on any level asked (because they know there's no magic bullet, you just have to get GOOD).   Sell this.  People that don't like it, won't play regardless of any changes we make to the boat. 

 

We need to be the "learn to race" fleet in the nation.  Let's face it, we're crew pigs.  We have to constantly recruit and train just to keep the boats running.  Quit trying to make the boat more friendly to old fat guys (sorry, Fred) and let's accept that WE are the fleet that is going to train the next generation of racers.

 

To reiterate, it's not the boat; it's the people.  Work THAT angle.

 

Rant mode OFF.  Wine evening.



#47 Chaise Lounge

Chaise Lounge

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Location:Rockland Maine
  • Interests:sailing! and taking photographs

Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:05 AM

Look guys, it's not the freakin' boat.  It's the way we sail it and the people that sail it.  THAT'S what we need to promote.  If the class would get together some of the bright children that are handy with the promotional crap, we could blow a lot of the other classes out of the water.  The strengths of this class are a low barrier to entry, great racing and people that will help on any level asked (because they know there's no magic bullet, you just have to get GOOD).   Sell this.  People that don't like it, won't play regardless of any changes we make to the boat. 

 

We need to be the "learn to race" fleet in the nation.  Let's face it, we're crew pigs.  We have to constantly recruit and train just to keep the boats running.  Quit trying to make the boat more friendly to old fat guys (sorry, Fred) and let's accept that WE are the fleet that is going to train the next generation of racers.

 

To reiterate, it's not the boat; it's the people.  Work THAT angle.

 

Rant mode OFF.  Wine evening.

Rant away!!! Great thoughts!  +1 or whatever is the cool thing to do below a post.... Cheers, enjoy the vino...and enjoy this shot from the recent NA's in Newport... I really enjoyed shooting images of the fleet, everyone seemed to be having a blast!



#48 Gouvernail

Gouvernail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,593 posts
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:margaritas, hippie chicks, durable flying discs for retriever dog play

Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:53 PM

The fundamental problem is twofold:

2. There us no super enthusiastic builder beating the bushes for buyers of its excellent and reasonably priced race ready new toys

1. The J-24 fleet forever has to compare itself and its current participation levels to when it was the all time greatest keelboat fleet

#49 bottlerocket

bottlerocket

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 239 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:41 PM

I think JavaJoe gave the best answer.  Eliminate the genoa and go with 4 crew.     One crew gets the cabin top and bow, and the rest are in the cockpit.    The 5th guy on a J24 gets the crap spot so eliminate it.

 

It will be slower in light air, but so what.



#50 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:11 AM

Why are we talking about preventing ANYBODY from sailing our boats? I thought the goal was to get MORE people sailing with us? As for going under the boom, anyone that's spent time on a Laser should have no difficulty ducking a 24 boom.  Diving through the hole is a reminder that ours is a SPORT, not a game.  There's a physicality to it.  

 

It's not about the boat, it's about the experience.

 

This from a female crew member of mine that's only been sailing competitively a couple of years after a 25-30 kt regatta (she broke in at Fort Worth and came back)

 

"Hypothermia on the J24 helps you not feel the bruises! Lol! Violent sailing reminds you that you're ALIVE!! Heavy wind is not for the weak."

 

Let's not take this away from the next generation of sailors, let's feed the beast by giving it more bodies.



#51 SpeedSquare

SpeedSquare

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 241 posts
  • Location:Not on a PHRF course
  • Interests:Firefighting, J27's, Skiing

Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:29 PM

It was said before, it's not the boat, its people.

 

A couple of years ago a few J/27 owners (lead by Hunter, I am sure) got together and organized a J/27 OD regatta.  Now the last J/27 was built in 1992, and only about 200 splashed...a fraction of j/24's.  The first year of the regatta, 11 boats.  Last year, 16, with boats coming from Annapolis, Boston, Chicago and New York State to Oakville.  We could exceed 20 in '14.

 

Enthusiasm is infectious and contageous.  So get out and sail your j/24's.  Be positive, supportive and encouraging of new owners and crews and who knows what you can accomplish.

 

The J/27 guys in Oakville didn't wait for someone to do for them...They went out and did for us.  At the end of the regatta, the grins and smiles were ear to ear on owners and crews alike.  We are all counting the days until August '14 and the J/27 North Americans hosted by the Oakville Yacht Squadron.



#52 boats and goes

boats and goes

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 86 posts
  • Location:Halifax, Nova Scotia
  • Interests:sailing and rum squalls

Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:03 AM

It hurts a lot! The j24 has the questionable honour of being the least fun sailboat I've ever sailed (did bow) on.


Yeah the teak rail sucks and sometimes the now person gets yelled at. Boo hoo

But:

They are relatively cheap and you can have a lot of fun racing them (misery loves company I guess)

How the hell can you not have fun racing a one design boat? Even if it's PHRF there are endless videos and guides on how to improve boat speed and handling

You can also pick up sails relatively cheap if you look around ( one or two regatta use sets )

I've found with racing these boats you make closer friends in the fleet vs a non OD class (especially around the dry sail crane)

And boat #42 can still jam with the #4000 series boats (I know this because I race on the old girl locally) so rather than it becoming a financial arms race (which it can) if there's talent on an older boat they can still compete

Oh and you can do a harbor race / booze cruise with 17 people on board... That's another story

#53 boats and goes

boats and goes

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 86 posts
  • Location:Halifax, Nova Scotia
  • Interests:sailing and rum squalls

Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:04 AM

Bow* not now.

Sorry guys

#54 Varan

Varan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 547 posts

Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:52 AM

Bow* not now.
Sorry guys

Newbie, it's boobs not boo boos.

#55 blisster

blisster

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:48 PM

http://www.sailingsc...school-sailors/



#56 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:37 AM

Here's a couple of ideas, promotion and education.

  A)  Videos like Harken and North are great for some training but why not, as a class, have a training curriculum so that learning to crew seminars have to look at J24's as they watch?  Or the kids group learning boat parts from a poster have to look at a J24 emblem when they're searching for the Cunningham label? Pass them out like party favors at  regattas so that 24 owners can use them to train prospective crew.

 

B)  When Texas had the Nationals, there was a great promotional video used to get people down there, why don't we have one for the class?  Some bright child that can run a video machine should be able to come up with a few minutes of footage that will encourage new people to come out and play with us.  Pass copies out like popcorn with the instructions "Send to anyone you think MIGHT be interested in learning to race sailboats"

 

Promotional crew stuff with the 24 emblem all over it.   I've noticed at Texas Circuit regattas there's not many T-shirts or gimme's with the class logo on them.  For those of use that have enough t-shirts to build a suit of sails ( my oldest circuit shirt is an '87), that's ok but for newbies that's the kind of stuff they live for and take to work.  Think back to when WE were the cannon fodder starting on the bow, we were after the t-shirts, hats, belts and all the regatta gear that showed we were there.  That's what these kids are looking for so why shouldn't it have a J-24 logo on it?



#57 Monkey

Monkey

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,320 posts

Posted 02 November 2013 - 06:50 PM

Unfortunately, there is no right answer to the OP's question. I'm in no way trying to be rude, but the boat itself is a tired, mediocre performance, logistically difficult boat to campaign compared to so many other options on the market. It's still a strong OD boat. It's pretty silly to think it'll ever be like the old days though.

#58 evenflow

evenflow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts
  • Location:Toronto
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:33 PM

There are three things at work here.

 

1. The boat.  Older designs get replaced with newer more entertaining ones.... J/80's have replaced the J/24s, J/70's the J/22.

2. Economics - Part 1 - Costs. 

3. Economics - Part 2 - Time.

 

I don't think there is a simple solution to any of them, and in our basin we keep seeing the decline of the big boat fleet and once popular ODs.  People just don't have the time they used to - call it productivity improvements or simply working more - and past times, recreation, etc. suffer.  Costs - to be competitive are up there, what with a new J/70 costing $50k, you wonder who can afford one (former J/105 owners excluded - met one in San Diego last year, he was pretty happy with his new 70).  And yes, a J/24 is fun, but man, I'd rather have a 70 or an 80, they are just so much nicer and easier to sail.

 

Based on this, the mythical ideal boat should be such that it can be trailered by a sedan, be dry or wet sailed, need 2-3 crew and be competitive, cost under $25k, use 3 sails and take a couple minutes to setup, go like stink - read plane easily and be easy to sail with anyone.  Closest think I have found is an SR Max, the Elliot 770, B25, SR 25, Ultimate 20 and 24, J/70, Shark.

 

Sorry, I know it is a J/24 discussion, but I have seen the fleet here in the GTA decline, a J/22 fleet pick-up and stop growing, now the question is what will replace it?  The J/27 discussion above, is right... it is people, but I still think the three points above still are a big issue.  Ask me next year, I am considering floating an specific OD type in our basin, we'll see how it goes.



#59 SuperStrings

SuperStrings

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Souther Calif
  • Interests:Racing, engineering

Posted 12 November 2013 - 01:10 AM

For increased fun without destroying the OD class structure, create an alternate class (think Laser Radial)  optimized for usability. Design for easy convertibility back and forth.  

 

Specifically:

1) Raise rig 3" for boom clearance, and more jib luff length.

2) Replace Genoa with largest most powerful jib possible using the forward tracks.

3) Loosed foot main with shorter leech for more headroom and easier crew movement

4) Move primary winches to cabin top  to effectively add 18" to the cockpit.

5) Replace shorten lifeline stanchions to make hiking much more comfortable.

6) Decrease crew weight for a 3-4 person crew.

7) allow any change to increase ease of use as long as it doesn't provide a direct speed advantage or safety problem.

 

I'm doing a prototype now,  The mast lift and wire extensions was less than $100 for materials.  The jib is being designed by Ulman and will be about $1600. 

 

I'll report sailing performance results about mid-summer 2014.  So far all I can report is conversion time - about three labor hours taking about one hour clock time.

 



#60 frostbit

frostbit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 206 posts

Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:06 PM

Everyone who complains about the lack of comfort sailing a J-24 must have such limited sailing experience to be laughable. If it hurts, you're doing it wrong!


The J24 is a pain box. What makes/made the j24 cool and fun and a worthwhile experience is/was the level of competition, the size of the fleets, the legends sailing in the class, relatively low cost, and sheer number of fleets around the world. It is the laser/ torch of small one design keelboats.

It allowed people to optimize within a defined box, and was a catalyst for some very cool stuff and the teething grounds for some excellent sailors. If you won in those fleets of yesteryear, there was no doubt regarding pecking order at sailor oriented drinking establishments anywhere in the world.

My personal opinion is that the moment has passed. There may be some great pockets still happening (see Newport RI on Tuesday nights), but that sailing has largely changed. In some way the energy around Moths (yes in know this is apples and oranges) is like J24 regattas from years ago. The J24 also benefitted from being the first of a model that is now so broadly copied that sailing is Balkanized with too many small fleets.

A revival is appealing, but unlikely to get beyond localized success.

#61 dogwatch

dogwatch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,634 posts
  • Location:South Coast, UK
  • Interests:Racing in all forms.

Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:40 PM

How to improve the J24.
 
Nothing ever burns down by itself
Every fire needs a little bit of help
Give the anarchist a cigarette



#62 Stibra

Stibra

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:15 AM

Convert them to fishing boats please, as they were originaly designed (designer changed his mind in the last minute).

#63 Mariner2442

Mariner2442

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Location:Nevada City,CA

Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:37 PM

I like the idea of a lease program. Clubs should start buying up the old J24s, there are so many of them around for relatively cheap. Turn them into training boats and club racers. They are great race boats for teaching someone about keelboat racing. You can stuff an instructor with 6 teens on one. Get the club to go for 4 of them and you have a very healthy junior keelboat program. And guess what, when those juniors are out crewing in the fleet or looking for their first boat, they are going to remember how much fun they had on a J24. 

 

Let's face it, the new sales of the J24, J22 are dead. Why spend $55-65k on a new J24 when you can get a J70 at the same price, or a Viper for half that, or one of a hundred other fun sporties(5.70, Rocket 22, U20, Melges 20, 24, Admiralty 30, Antrim 27, 24, etc, etc). The boat itself is not going to draw people into the class, the only thing that will get people into the class are the people. More local and regional events and support. Make it the most active class and the people will come, look at how many people are still out racing Santana 22s and Cal 20s, and those boats are real pigs. 



#64 B.Wilkinson

B.Wilkinson

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 248 posts
  • Location:Noank, CT

Posted 03 December 2013 - 03:54 AM

Haha no he didn't. Rod wanted a boat he could race with the family, have fun in, and still win.

 

Convert them to fishing boats please, as they were originaly designed (designer changed his mind in the last minute).

 

 

 

As far as the class goes, what's the youngest owner who races consistently on the big stage? The problem with shrinking 24 fleets isn't necessarily a 24 problem, its more of a sport wide problem.



#65 blisster

blisster

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 04 December 2013 - 02:27 AM

I think the 24 class needs a huge push right now. Throwing money at the boats is not a good solution in this case, or ever really. In the local fleet, the three most regularly raced J/24s are made up of crew in their 20's and the other ~4 boats are not much older or a mix of old and young. Yeah the boat isn't the latest and greatest but definitely not the worst either. Now that the 24 fleet is aging, young people can get into game, and not be forced to sail on boats owned by old hags yelling at them to grind faster. Plus nothing is better than spanking that same bunch of old farts around the course on an old 24.

 

Good racing, good people, good parties... and cheap. One Design 101



#66 Gouvernail

Gouvernail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,593 posts
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:margaritas, hippie chicks, durable flying discs for retriever dog play

Posted 08 December 2013 - 07:56 PM

From about 1983 on my belief has been the class would benefit from a Dacron only with heavy minimum cloth weights rule.
The sales of new sails drove the contest to its highest peaks and it is probably true the class would never have prospered to the level it did without all those sailmakers.
But
The sailmakers pretty much left the competition in the early nineties and the game left behind, says me, in no way benefits from the need for constant replacement of lightweight state of the art sails.

The game is one design. When playing against other boats the difference between a six oz Dacron genoa and a light weight no stretch cloth is almost always meaningless.... The J is going to stomp the Pearsons, Catalina's, San Juan's, and Hunters.
If the rules were re written to allow sailmakers to provide us with decently priced sails that could compete for five to ten years the class might just cause old toys to be dragged out of fields and sheds everywhere.

#67 Gouvernail

Gouvernail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,593 posts
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:margaritas, hippie chicks, durable flying discs for retriever dog play

Posted 08 December 2013 - 08:07 PM

Note; implementation of the above

Start requiring the sails at world championships ASAP. Almost everybody buys an entire new suit for those games so the financial impact would be minimal.
The next year the sails could be required for all sanctioned class events.
Third year the sails would be required to maintain a measurement certificate

Impact on the fleet? The very most actively competitive sailors would have slower sails for a while ..... Causing newbies and also rans to be more competitive???
I love that result. Get a crappy old boat with old sails and win right off the bat???
And realize while playing in the fleet the folks are fun and after a while buy the new slow stuff and stick around for a couple decades

Most of all: the class would be more one design than ever.

In fact: what if the class approved the sail design and all the sailmakers agreed to build the sails as exactly to the same design as keeping the price low would allow??

The one thing the J game has always lacked is one design sails.

#68 B.Wilkinson

B.Wilkinson

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 248 posts
  • Location:Noank, CT

Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:39 AM

Not putting a limit on the number of boats at this years worlds would be a great first step. Come on guys its NEWPORT! That's comparable the center of the universe for 24's. Let whoever wants to come out, go and race.



#69 dolphinmaster

dolphinmaster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 979 posts
  • Location:Wilmington, NC

Posted 09 December 2013 - 12:01 PM

Um...... anyone notice a J-24 took race 3 fleet bullet and won the whole series in the SDYC Hot Rum.



#70 Corvallisc

Corvallisc

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts
  • Location:Eugene, OR
  • Interests:women, soccer, women, J24, women

Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:06 PM

The best thing to do to improve the class is to donate boats to youth programs that will use them to get kids on the race course. There is no better team builder, confidence builder and fun than a J24 being raced by youth in PHRF kicking ass on old farts. My youth program in Oregon needs another J24 to provided these opportunities to more kids in a part of the country that has not had youth sailing until just recently. Learn more about our program here in Eugene: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OE-trF49KXM



#71 lucky1954

lucky1954

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 31 posts
  • Location:Qingdao, China.
  • Interests:Backpacking, Sailing, Travelling and Sail making !

Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:37 PM

I don't know enough to give ideas, but I have "thoughts", that I don't know if it's proper for me to say it aloud.



#72 Great Red Shark

Great Red Shark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,609 posts
  • Location:Honolulu

Posted 24 December 2013 - 07:22 AM

Classes that have made radical changes have lost members (Snipe, Laser), old classes that have kept their identity have survived (Star, 505).  It makes no sense, in my opinion, to change the boat which will certainly cause a loss of members for the uncertain possibility of gaining a few. 

 

Didn't the 505 switch to a much bigger kite a half-dozen years back ?    - just sayin'... 

 

Thing is,  the J/24 thrived when it was THE Serious racing keelboat for the masses and the masses like New Stuff - specifically things relevant to the past 30 years or so,  not a boat designed during the Carter years.  The Keenly Competitive Elvis Has Left the Building.

 

If the boat ISN'T going to be the Cock of the Walk,  perhaps -  just MAYBE there should be some recognition that in many regions it's going to be raced by the B-squads and making it easier to field a team would be productive.  I doubt the International Class would ever be dragged into allowing it,  but changes that allow 3 or 4 persons to compete would probably help numbers - in some areas,  unfortunately the boats really kinda need the grunt of the genny in sub-10 kts - so that's going to be a tough sell in a lot of places that see frequent light winds in some seasons.



#73 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 25 December 2013 - 12:21 PM

Classes that have made radical changes have lost members (Snipe, Laser), old classes that have kept their identity have survived (Star, 505).  It makes no sense, in my opinion, to change the boat which will certainly cause a loss of members for the uncertain possibility of gaining a few. 

 

Didn't the 505 switch to a much bigger kite a half-dozen years back ?    - just sayin'... 

 

Thing is,  the J/24 thrived when it was THE Serious racing keelboat for the masses and the masses like New Stuff - specifically things relevant to the past 30 years or so,  not a boat designed during the Carter years.  The Keenly Competitive Elvis Has Left the Building.

 

If the boat ISN'T going to be the Cock of the Walk,  perhaps -  just MAYBE there should be some recognition that in many regions it's going to be raced by the B-squads and making it easier to field a team would be productive.  I doubt the International Class would ever be dragged into allowing it,  but changes that allow 3 or 4 persons to compete would probably help numbers - in some areas,  unfortunately the boats really kinda need the grunt of the genny in sub-10 kts - so that's going to be a tough sell in a lot of places that see frequent light winds in some seasons.

Re: 0's.  They certainly did go to the larger kite, after studying the issue for quite a while looking at the impact on the fleet.  A major difference in the fleets, though, is that 50's are a development class rather than a strict one design.  If you're in the 50's, you KNOW you're going to have to upgrade the gear.  The other fleets were strict one-design that changed rules and suffered.

 

The major problem, that I see, in attendence is cost.  There are just fewer people out there that can afford the time or money to play in this game.  That's where the 24's strength lies, in the low entry cost, low development costs (all the questions are answered) and comparitively low operational costs for the level of competition. In my opinion, THAT'S the growth area that the class can exploit, the entry level competitive racers.  Quit trying the make the class more comfortable for us grey heads and go out and recruit the kids.  If the class has canned promotional materials that we as owners could put in the gyms to recruit crew, educational materials to train new crew members with and cheap gimme's to had out to crew and at regattas, WE would be the class that was creating the next generation of racers.  Yes, they'll go off to the sprit boats for awhile but when they get older and have kids what class will they come back to?



#74 IshmaelHatesThatDamnWhale

IshmaelHatesThatDamnWhale

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 343 posts

Posted 28 December 2013 - 07:48 PM

FREE BEER!  Seriously, the Davis Island YC in Tampa, Florida always had a sponsored keg after each day of OD racing.  It got us college kids into the fleet because we liked their kool-aid.  The next step was an owner loaning us a boat on the agreement that we would bring it back in better shape than we got it.  We polished the bottom and threw a few new lines on it (I was working part-time at the local rigging shop).  This was huge as we had our own crew, a boat we were responsible for, and it was all a good time.  It also showed the fleet that our "old" boat was actually really fast with a good crew.

 

DIYC also host the J/24 Midwinters which would have several free kegs of beer and there were inevitably drinking games that got everyone socializing and having FUN!  And then they do a no-rules distance race/delivery from Tampa to St. Petersburg in between the Midwinters and NOODs.  It involves a drinking LeMans style start and a lot of oddly turbo'd 24's.  The last year I did it we added a block at the mast head for MH kites and wire-luff drifter that fit perfectly as a masthead genoa.  And traps.  Unfortunately there was no wind and everyone ended up drag racing with outboards after the first few miles...

 

As far as changing the boats, making the sails last longer would be huge.  A full-length top batten in the main and more durable genoas.  I'm not sure how I feel about ditching the genoa as Lopez-blocking that bitch in 18 knots is a serious test of skill, strength, and coordination for the trimmer and crew.  But I don't have a dog in this fight anymore after moving back to SF Bay, where the Moore 24 reigns supreme as the best 24 foot OD boat.



#75 Speng

Speng

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,157 posts
  • Location:Cincinnati, OH
  • Interests:stuff with sails

Posted 31 December 2013 - 03:38 PM

A lot of people have pointed out that it would be good to have a lot of resources out there for new owners to be able sort out their boats and sailing technique as quickly as possible. A used J is really a cheap now. I recall my friend buying one in 2000 for ~$10K and it seems like they're going for 25% or more less now so for an old class the depreciation is pretty steep. $40K for a new one is ridiculous but buying a new one is stupid anyway... So the class needs to promote the idea to younger sailors that you can get into a (still) pretty competitive fleet with sailing all across the country. Here's a couple ideas:

  • the fleet needs to be more family and woman friendly. When I sailed 24s it was very much a older guy sailing with his 2/3 mates and a junior thing. I knew girls who trimmed genoa and did foredeck but 24 regattas were (and probably still are) very much a sausage fest. Athletic twentysomethings I think are the class' target and a lot of them are doing expensive hobbies like triathlon etc so a J24 isn't necessarily too much $$. I think the "free baby-sitting at regattas" is great idea. The days of "leave the wife at home" for a weekend of sailing doesn't fly anymore because the athletic chick you married wants to come sailing too.
  • Active recruiting. Local fleets could donate/loan unused boats to kids in/fresh out of college. Get the youngsters on the boats and some/a lot will stick. Help them learn boat setup and technique etc. Provide local unused boats for regattas rather than requiring people tow their own. How many times have have you towed your own boat to a regatta and put in only to see 3-4 local boats on trailers? Suitable insurance and the borrowers bring their own sails or some other kind of financial arrangement and it becomes a much easier deal. Less need for a big tow truck. Loaner boats have gotten me to regattas that I wouldn't have otherwise went to so it works.

I won't bother talking about simple mods because old geezers like Gouv can't see the forest for the trees.



#76 boatturtle

boatturtle

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:yacht, boat, sail

Posted 02 January 2014 - 03:44 AM

Ok, what would you do to make the class better and to get better attendance?

 

Personally, after being a new father for the first time, I would love to see baby sitting services :)  We just missed two great years of regattas!

 

Team / group competition (by age) . This will be fun and exciting.



#77 gsasquatch

gsasquatch

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:54 PM

Lift the GPS ban.

 

A compass only device costs $500+

 

A tablet can be velcroed to the mast with iRegatta on it for < $250.

 

A high precentage of owners and crew are going to have a GPS capable smart phone on them while sailing. 



#78 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:26 AM

Check out what Jorge is doing at Austin Yacht Club.  He's set up a crewing school  based on the J-24 class to recruit new sailors into the game (and the class).  I'm working on doing the same thing here in OKC and have gotten some encouraging feedback to the idea from the 20 somethings that we need to keep our boats running (and get the next generation of owners).  As one cute little thing said "A new sport and free beer? Throw in a pizza and all my friends are in."



#79 Super Delegate

Super Delegate

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 203 posts
  • Location:New England
  • Interests:Custom Rigging Solutions

Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:05 PM

Anyone want to buy my J/24?  :unsure:



#80 Vernon Green

Vernon Green

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,029 posts
  • Location:Norman, OK
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:40 AM

Learning, the crew school sounds like a great idea! Would love to be involved if I can help out in some fashion. 

Check out what Jorge is doing at Austin Yacht Club.  He's set up a crewing school  based on the J-24 class to recruit new sailors into the game (and the class).  I'm working on doing the same thing here in OKC and have gotten some encouraging feedback to the idea from the 20 somethings that we need to keep our boats running (and get the next generation of owners).  As one cute little thing said "A new sport and free beer? Throw in a pizza and all my friends are in."



#81 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,689 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:15 AM

I've been thinking about this thread for awhile.  It seems to me there are 2 different "types" of J-24's racing today.  There's the maxed out national level boat, that has all the tweeks, updates, etc done to it. It requires an athletic beefy crew and a pretty good helmsman who can steer small despite all the neutral to lee helm.  There's maybe a couple hundred boats/crews that can sail these boats well at the regional and national level.

 

Then there's a couple thousand J-24's in various states of updates/evolution..from was total updated 5 or so years ago, to the bone stock 78 models.  It seems that the top group will continue to slowly get smaller as people move to newer one designs like the J/70.  So what to do for the rest of everyone?

 

I wonder if the answer isn't to "de-tune" the boats some.  Make the groove wider, bring back some weather helm, etc.  Keel not at max forward or blades a little thicker/more forgiving.  Adjust sail size/type so you don't need max forestay length and a butt load of rake.  Drop to 4 crew.  Maybe jib only with a max roach main and a Dynema backstay and flicker.  Essentially make a JV or Club level boat that is easier for the average or new guy to get up to speed in.  For the class to essentially admit there are lots of boats that could be being raced, and folks could have a bunch of fun on and with, and bring new folks into the sport and class for not a lot of money...but at a level that is somewhat less intense and professional than the current National level boat...



#82 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:41 AM

I've been thinking about this thread for awhile.  It seems to me there are 2 different "types" of J-24's racing today.  There's the maxed out national level boat, that has all the tweeks, updates, etc done to it. It requires an athletic beefy crew and a pretty good helmsman who can steer small despite all the neutral to lee helm.  There's maybe a couple hundred boats/crews that can sail these boats well at the regional and national level.

 

Then there's a couple thousand J-24's in various states of updates/evolution..from was total updated 5 or so years ago, to the bone stock 78 models.  It seems that the top group will continue to slowly get smaller as people move to newer one designs like the J/70.  So what to do for the rest of everyone?

 

I wonder if the answer isn't to "de-tune" the boats some.  Make the groove wider, bring back some weather helm, etc.  Keel not at max forward or blades a little thicker/more forgiving.  Adjust sail size/type so you don't need max forestay length and a butt load of rake.  Drop to 4 crew.  Maybe jib only with a max roach main and a Dynema backstay and flicker.  Essentially make a JV or Club level boat that is easier for the average or new guy to get up to speed in.  For the class to essentially admit there are lots of boats that could be being raced, and folks could have a bunch of fun on and with, and bring new folks into the sport and class for not a lot of money...but at a level that is somewhat less intense and professional than the current National level boat...

I know I sound a bit like a broken record but it's not the boat.  Let's be honest, the 24 is not a great boat.  It's heavy, cranky and less than comfortable for an aging population.  But it's also utterly sorted so punters can slowly tweak their boats closer and closer to the national ideal.  It's also unique in that it has two non-specialist positions for recruits/trainees. But what makes the class truly great is the people. The ability to sail with the pros (if but for a little while at the start) is hugely educational and everyone is free with their knowledge because we all know that the speed comes from the people rather than the boat.

 

Bifurcating the class, in my opinion, have a hugely negative impact by obsoleting a large number of older boats for the upper division while discouraging movement up to National.  Ignore the pros at the top, they are not the strength of the class.  It's the punters in the middle that provide the value.  Look at the change in Laser participation after the Olympic driven rigging changes.  That's the model suggested but it doesn't seem to produce the desired results.

 

Don't change the boats; take newbies sailing.



#83 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,689 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:48 PM

Hey Learning,

I guess I didn't do a great job explaining, because I agree it's not the boat, and taking newbies sailing is the right approach....and part of what makes the class great is that you can still get a boat and line up with really great sailors, if only for a little while at the beginning.  I was trying to suggest a slightly more formalized stepping stone approach to the "its also utterly sorted so punters can slowly tweak their boats closer and closer to the national ideal"

 

I also disagree that its not a great boat.  For its day (late 70's) it was a pretty great boat.  Back when I had one (he says thru rose-colored glasses) before the decades of refinement and evolution, it wasn't a cranky boat...so isn't there a step point for the new guys to come in (or come back to once we get older and tire of spending 5 grand a sail and lining up 8 crew a weekend - and that's just for a 30 foot PHRF boat), where we don't really have any national ambitions, don't want to spend 20+ grand on a competitive boat - or to make one competitive, yet still have a boat that can be evolved and tweaked toward that national ideal either by the guy with time and skill but no money, or the guy who gets hooked on wants to step up?  I specifically don't want to change the boat and thereby make it not a class legal boat.  Just make a Corinthian (Bronze?) subgroup of boats that us old club punters could race (with that new crew) or that a new guy could get into and have a hope of being competitive in his "subgroup" sooner, to keep him interested and engaged.

 

Lastly, I actually think the way to increase participation in sailboat racing in general is to decrease crew size, not increase it.  Too many new folks stay away, and too many old folks get tired of trying to round up big crews.  Plus the "crew" population, which is also semi fixed, by nature tend to gravitate towards the cool boats and the winning boats, leaving the rest of the fleet "crew/talent" starved and eventually you just lose those guys if there older racers or if there new to racing, they are intimidated and reluctant to get into the fray.

 

But in principal I agree...don't change the boats, and take newbies sailing. :rolleyes:



#84 crash

crash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,689 posts

Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:49 PM

So that means I should forego the full roached main and dynnema backstay...as that would change the boat, and eliminate a source of used sails for the more Corinthian guys...or starters on a budget...



#85 Gouvernail

Gouvernail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,593 posts
  • Location:Austin Texas
  • Interests:margaritas, hippie chicks, durable flying discs for retriever dog play

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:17 AM

It seems to me most of the sail able J-24s are.

Them there are the ones that need some help to sail again

Then there are the ones that need $20,000 to be old but solid again,


Local fleets seem to be doing a pretty good job of finding the remaining diamonds and finding local buyers.
Around here we have been looking around and going to fetch from less active club's stashes of good oldies

But the number of thirty seven year old J boats with hopelessly rotted cores is rapidly growing.

The PHRF fleet will have j -24 boats for smother fifty years

The real racing needs to be organized in a newer, well promoted, sailboat that is built by someone who busts ass to set up oval stocking dealers all over the world.

But that isn't all

We need to look at the difference between 1977 and now that makes it impossible for our young folks to sail.

I am off to sailing anarchy to start a thtead

#86 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,839 posts

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:29 AM

The boat WAS great, in the 70's, but has been passed by newer boats.  The VX-1 has bloomed here being a faster, easier to manage boat for half the money.  However, what the boat's former glory has left us is a great class structure. By only slowly changing the boat, the cost structure has been kept in check to the point that a public school teacher can take a totaled boat and slowly bring it up to at least regional competitiveness (the boat, not me).  Even at the Dillon Nationals, I never thought it was the boat that kept me in the cheap seats.  And there's the point, a poor boy can take a wore out battle wagon to a Nationals and not feel handicapped by the equipment. THAT'S the strength of the class.  No offense intended but the impression given is that you want the acclaim of winning a J-24 event without having to play by the same rules as the big boys.  The big boys are the reason that there's acclaim attached to winning such a regatta, trying to carve that up only diminishes that status. The number after your name doesn't define winning; it's the experience of surviving a 40+kt Fort Worth regatta or looking back at a fleet of 24's with the Rockies in the background.  The crowded mark roundings or close finishes define the experience whether fighting for 1st or 14th.  At 505 worlds some years ago there were a pair of septogenarians racing; THEY won, regardless of who took home the silver.  

 

I disagree about the crew pool being semi-fixed; we just have to work at getting newbies in.  Just like the boat, success just doesn't come before work.

 

No one is asking you to forego any modification to the boat that you want (I've got a full roached main in the shed, myself) but those mod's turn the boat into something other than a J-24.  You can't have your cake and eat it as well.



#87 Dogfish4255

Dogfish4255

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 84 posts
  • Location:Newport, RI
  • Interests:Mostly sailboat racing, but woodworking, drinking, and sailboat racing are all up there.

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:35 PM

Miami just made a small victory for this thread.  The change that needs to be made (in any fleet) is knowledgeable fleet members taking an active interest in new owners, and a pro-active approach to supporting those new owners' participation AND learning curve.  Congrats to both Taylor Treese with Summertime and Zach with I'll Go, for trusting the encouragement of fellow fleet members and making the time to participate in the 2014 Midwinters event.  No slouch fleet, but both teams had a blast.

 

Fairly confident both will be back for more!

 

It's not about the boat.  It's people.



#88 InfamousBrands

InfamousBrands

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Location:Lake Ontario

Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:20 AM

So i have been following this thread and decided finally time to join and post. I cant give much perspective for the class but since i just bought my j-24 today i can give the view looking into the series. 

 

As a 22yr old guy 235 6'2" i showed up one day at my local club and they were so welcoming but i got the 5th man spot, diving under the boom. For those that say its for tiny girl and guys 100% wrong it is however notfor lazy people and will need you to be quick. But different story. So i loved my first time, showed up next week and was hooked a few weeks later started doing a ensign and enjoyed it also but loved the j-24. The club i race at has about 12 that race every sunday. 

 

The issues i see though with the class, there is no encouragement to get youth sailers into these boats. If it wasnt for the guy who let me crew i would be on a different forum, with a different boat. Nobody else wanted to show me there boat, talk to me, or let me crew. So as a youth sailer this is a huge turn off, once i was there for a year some people finally started talking to me but nobody opened up. The other issue is cost, i saved and saved and saved to get this boat and im gonna have to learn to do everything myself because its so costly to be in the series. Since the class is all older guys they can spare money if they need a sail, spin, and part but as a young guy i have school to pay for and housing. So if there was a way to have a youth fund to get guys in that would open up a large group of people to join. Right now im trying to find any advertising possibly just to make a go, but if i do have any ability to compete at other regattas i wont be able to afford it because im being squeezed out financially vs other series.

 

The other issue and last is rules, i have been going over the rules and i think that the rules have become to babied about safety and being polite not to be to close to another boat, and allow the others to have time that the fire and competition is going out. I was just down in the Keys at the 56 super series event and tacking a few feet away from the boats and doing what you have to, to win was the name of the game but it seems the new j rules was be polite ask permission to tack and dont do anything risky. 



#89 OBW

OBW

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 331 posts

Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:21 PM

So i have been following this thread and decided finally time to join and post. I cant give much perspective for the class but since i just bought my j-24 today i can give the view looking into the series. 
 
As a 22yr old guy 235 6'2" i showed up one day at my local club and they were so welcoming but i got the 5th man spot, diving under the boom. For those that say its for tiny girl and guys 100% wrong it is however notfor lazy people and will need you to be quick. But different story. So i loved my first time, showed up next week and was hooked a few weeks later started doing a ensign and enjoyed it also but loved the j-24. The club i race at has about 12 that race every sunday. 
 
The issues i see though with the class, there is no encouragement to get youth sailers into these boats. If it wasnt for the guy who let me crew i would be on a different forum, with a different boat. Nobody else wanted to show me there boat, talk to me, or let me crew. So as a youth sailer this is a huge turn off, once i was there for a year some people finally started talking to me but nobody opened up. The other issue is cost, i saved and saved and saved to get this boat and im gonna have to learn to do everything myself because its so costly to be in the series. Since the class is all older guys they can spare money if they need a sail, spin, and part but as a young guy i have school to pay for and housing. So if there was a way to have a youth fund to get guys in that would open up a large group of people to join. Right now im trying to find any advertising possibly just to make a go, but if i do have any ability to compete at other regattas i wont be able to afford it because im being squeezed out financially vs other series.
 
The other issue and last is rules, i have been going over the rules and i think that the rules have become to babied about safety and being polite not to be to close to another boat, and allow the others to have time that the fire and competition is going out. I was just down in the Keys at the 56 super series event and tacking a few feet away from the boats and doing what you have to, to win was the name of the game but it seems the new j rules was be polite ask permission to tack and dont do anything risky. 


Where are you racing the boat?

#90 SuperStrings

SuperStrings

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:Souther Calif
  • Interests:Racing, engineering

Posted 08 March 2014 - 02:18 AM

If by the "silly rules" you mean all those which do not support safety, cost control, or racing evenness I agree.  They are slowly moving in that direction but I don't think there is an organized effort. A good example of a rule with no purpose would be the minimum weight limit on outboard motors.  its is stored low so no advantage to lightness and weight is not a good proxy for power. 



#91 Corvallisc

Corvallisc

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts
  • Location:Eugene, OR
  • Interests:women, soccer, women, J24, women

Posted 16 March 2014 - 11:12 PM

The best thing to do to improve the class is to donate boats to youth programs that will use them to get kids on the race course. There is no better team builder, confidence builder and fun than a J24 being raced by youth in PHRF kicking ass on old farts. My youth program in Oregon needs another J24 to provided these opportunities to more kids in a part of the country that has not had youth sailing until just recently. Learn more about our program here in Eugene: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OE-trF49KXM

UPDATE: We got a boat donated out of Portland and now have a keel boat that our youth can go out and race!



#92 InfamousBrands

InfamousBrands

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Location:Lake Ontario

Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:51 AM

So i have been following this thread and decided finally time to join and post. I cant give much perspective for the class but since i just bought my j-24 today i can give the view looking into the series. 
 
As a 22yr old guy 235 6'2" i showed up one day at my local club and they were so welcoming but i got the 5th man spot, diving under the boom. For those that say its for tiny girl and guys 100% wrong it is however notfor lazy people and will need you to be quick. But different story. So i loved my first time, showed up next week and was hooked a few weeks later started doing a ensign and enjoyed it also but loved the j-24. The club i race at has about 12 that race every sunday. 
 
The issues i see though with the class, there is no encouragement to get youth sailers into these boats. If it wasnt for the guy who let me crew i would be on a different forum, with a different boat. Nobody else wanted to show me there boat, talk to me, or let me crew. So as a youth sailer this is a huge turn off, once i was there for a year some people finally started talking to me but nobody opened up. The other issue is cost, i saved and saved and saved to get this boat and im gonna have to learn to do everything myself because its so costly to be in the series. Since the class is all older guys they can spare money if they need a sail, spin, and part but as a young guy i have school to pay for and housing. So if there was a way to have a youth fund to get guys in that would open up a large group of people to join. Right now im trying to find any advertising possibly just to make a go, but if i do have any ability to compete at other regattas i wont be able to afford it because im being squeezed out financially vs other series.
 
The other issue and last is rules, i have been going over the rules and i think that the rules have become to babied about safety and being polite not to be to close to another boat, and allow the others to have time that the fire and competition is going out. I was just down in the Keys at the 56 super series event and tacking a few feet away from the boats and doing what you have to, to win was the name of the game but it seems the new j rules was be polite ask permission to tack and dont do anything risky. 


Where are you racing the boat?

Upstate New York,



#93 NotEnough

NotEnough

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 77 posts

Posted 26 March 2014 - 02:52 AM

So, Infamous

Let me be one of the first to welcome you to District 7.  I'm guessing you are likely to be in either Rochester, Oswego, or Canandaigua.  Maybe Sodus Bay or Ithaca, or even Pultneyville.  Whatever, we are glad you are joining the group.  You will find the J24 people here to be appreciative that you are bringing another boat to the start line, and you should try to come to one of the district regattas.  Fun and low key.  PM me if you want some local contacts or support.  I've been doing it for like  3 decades, and it's a great bunch of people in your area.



#94 djmnyc

djmnyc

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 127 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:38 PM

The other issue and last is rules, i have been going over the rules and i think that the rules have become to babied about safety and being polite not to be to close to another boat, and allow the others to have time that the fire and competition is going out. I was just down in the Keys at the 56 super series event and tacking a few feet away from the boats and doing what you have to, to win was the name of the game but it seems the new j rules was be polite ask permission to tack and dont do anything risky. 

 

What rules are you talking about?  The RRS, the J24 class, rules, or maybe that your local fleet decided to dial it down a bit?



#95 InfamousBrands

InfamousBrands

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Location:Lake Ontario

Posted 06 April 2014 - 03:54 PM

The other issue and last is rules, i have been going over the rules and i think that the rules have become to babied about safety and being polite not to be to close to another boat, and allow the others to have time that the fire and competition is going out. I was just down in the Keys at the 56 super series event and tacking a few feet away from the boats and doing what you have to, to win was the name of the game but it seems the new j rules was be polite ask permission to tack and dont do anything risky. 

 

What rules are you talking about?  The RRS, the J24 class, rules, or maybe that your local fleet decided to dial it down a bit?

I didnt notice it so much at the club but i was reading the rule book, and giving right of way and it just seemed like it was getting very weak. That you had to let people go instead of being competitive and holding the line. I could be completely wrong and maybe i didn't understand the rules or was reading it and thinking it ment something else. Ive been known to do that haha but was just thinking it should be as competitive as possible.



#96 djmnyc

djmnyc

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 127 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:39 AM

 

The other issue and last is rules, i have been going over the rules and i think that the rules have become to babied about safety and being polite not to be to close to another boat, and allow the others to have time that the fire and competition is going out. I was just down in the Keys at the 56 super series event and tacking a few feet away from the boats and doing what you have to, to win was the name of the game but it seems the new j rules was be polite ask permission to tack and dont do anything risky. 

 

What rules are you talking about?  The RRS, the J24 class, rules, or maybe that your local fleet decided to dial it down a bit?

I didnt notice it so much at the club but i was reading the rule book, and giving right of way and it just seemed like it was getting very weak. That you had to let people go instead of being competitive and holding the line. I could be completely wrong and maybe i didn't understand the rules or was reading it and thinking it ment something else. Ive been known to do that haha but was just thinking it should be as competitive as possible.

 I'm guessing you're talking about giving room at a mark.  I can understand how, If you're new to sailing, that seems to make it less competitive, but I'm pretty sure the first time you're on a 35 footer, blasting in at a mark in 20kts of breeze, and there are 10 other boats all overlapped, you'll understand why creating some rules as to who is entitled space makes a lot of sense.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users