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My new custom Jim Betts aluminum peapod


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#101 Bulbhunter

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:16 PM

Tom:

Sure I would be very interested. But I'm talking about rocks. Do they operate airboats in rocky shore areas? When I see them on TV they are always flying over marshy shorelines. We don't have marshy on my beach.

 

They try to avoid hard surfaces, but I have seen my neighbor go across his shell driveway and another guy drove his airboat right up a concrete boat ramp. The coatings have to be pretty tough to stay when blasting through sawgrass, but I have no idea how they would really hold up for your use.

Thought they used catfish gland system I hear Oracle used the idea in the previous AC on the Monster. The tough coatings these days all seem to be grippy vs hard and slick. The coating needs to be flexible enough to let the aluminum flex when being beached without cracking and breaking the coating also. But 120lbs a simple big wheeled cart which after beaching and unloading, you slide it up on the cart then Bob does his best Ox beast of burden imitation and wheels it up above the high tide line.



#102 Bob Perry

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:26 PM

tls:

Those are valid points. I have been wonderimg the same thing. But we have a new program that has reduced the length of the darts so we are happy with that. I'll discuss this with Betts. Betts will know best.

 

As for a sailing rig, we have already discussed that and at some point in time it is inevitable. But not now and not for me now. It's not my idea of a good sailboat shape. It's a rowing shape. Nice square topped main ?

 

Talking to my buddy and seing his wheelbarrow beach dolly hybrid I'm not worried at this tme baout getting the boat up and down the beach. At higher tides the trip could be 8' or less Right now it would be 4'. At lower tides the trip could be 50'.



#103 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:54 PM

tls

Not all origami boats need to have darts. But they are shaped in such a way that would be hard to compare to the peapod Bob is talking about.

 

Attached File  272R-03.jpg   21.76K   58 downloads

 



#104 Bob Perry

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:10 PM

That is very cool Yves-Marie.



#105 tls

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:51 PM

tls

Not all origami boats need to have darts. But they are shaped in such a way that would be hard to compare to the peapod Bob is talking about.

 

attachicon.gif272R-03.jpg

 

This is a cool boat, but why is that consider origami?  That seems to be built like any other metal boat with a chine in the bilges.  I think I may not be clear how origami differs from other build techniques.  Is it because the skin is forced into some limited compound curves, rather than sticking strictly to conic sections?  



#106 Bob Perry

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:56 PM

tls:

No each panel is  conical. The entire skin is not. That's where the darts some in.

I'll know more when we have done it. I'm new to this method. It's just another adventure in boatbuilding.

Are there other ways to do it? I suppose but this is the method I have chosen for my boat.



#107 Tom Ray

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:05 AM

OK, guess I better ask before the question sounds even more stupid...

What are darts?

Besides pointy things thrown by drunks, I mean.

#108 casc27

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:30 AM

Darts:

 

1. Pub missles.

2. Sharp objects tossed around in kung-fu movies.

3. A mediocre car by Dodge.

4. The act of moving quickly.

5. The stinger of an insect.

6. A verbal jab (I think this is an accepted usage)

7. A tapered cut or fold sewn into a garment to adjust the fit or alter the shape.

 

Number 7 is most appropo to the building technique for Bob's new boat.

 

Ok, I get to go home now. And, yes, that was the most fun I had all day (one of those days).



#109 Bob Perry

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:34 AM

Glad I could provide the entertainment Casc.



#110 fastyacht

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:40 AM

Darts. In fact this is origami dress making. See how the top dart and the lower dart don't meet? 

 

Kelley_darts.jpg

 

that pucker is the problem in the metal case.

 

Aircraft makers have dart-like puckers where the pilothouse windows fit into the English Wheeled fuselage.  Frankly, I think the sexier thing to do is to use an english wheel and make a proper double-curved hull.  I have a friend who builds cars--I think I need to do this :-)



#111 Bob Perry

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:42 AM

Please explain it Rasper.



#112 NewLeaf

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:44 AM

Jim Betts is in Anacortes. He's an old friend. He is very, very good with alu.

Here is a little project I did with Jim, WILD HORSES.

she is in Bainbridge Island and I LOVE this boat! I wish I had one like her so I could take her to the 7 seas!



#113 steele

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:50 AM

Darts:

 

1. Pub missles.

2. Sharp objects tossed around in kung-fu movies.

3. A mediocre car by Dodge.

4. The act of moving quickly.

5. The stinger of an insect.

6. A verbal jab (I think this is an accepted usage)

7. A tapered cut or fold sewn into a garment to adjust the fit or alter the shape.

 

Number 7 is most appropo to the building technique for Bob's new boat.

 

Ok, I get to go home now. And, yes, that was the most fun I had all day (one of those days).

Not all Dodge Darts were mediocre,

Attached File  212285_87562ff0ff_low_res.jpg   243.3K   7 downloads

It also had a sliding seat, just saying...



#114 Rasputin22

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:02 AM

OK, guess I better ask before the question sounds even more stupid...

What are darts?

Besides pointy things thrown by drunks, I mean.

 

 

Darts is a dressmaking term I think. Valid term for what we are dealing with here. A term that I relate to better for some reason is 'gores'. I think that the tapers that are used to create hot air balloons are called gores. Darts and Gores are probably much the same thing and just names that two different industries have come to use. Bob and I can probably just call these carefully considered tapered cuts into the alum plate anything we want, how about 'Fudge Factor Lines'?  Whatever you call them they will allow a fabricator to simply pull the widening seam closed and tack weld it together as the shape gets 'closed up'. 

 

http://www.apexballoons.com/tips/

 

I'm trying to reduce the length of welded edges and make the nature of the origami method more of a factor. The original model had the seams going to within 6 or 8" of the stems, not much point to doing the common panel of an origami boat when a few more inches of cut to the ends would cut down on waste. Good points in the past few posts and these are issues I'm trying to address. The trick to pulling cut files off of these 3d models is how the very subtle transitions as the panels fold to an unbroken surface at the bow and stern where the skin meets the stem and stern posts. Bob and I have been exploring the application of an unfolding program called 'Lamina'. It lets one set a value as to where surfaces become tangent and let me adjust just how far the cut and weld lines extend towards the ends of the panel. Whether or not this hull is worth pursuing via the 'origami' boat building technique is not longer our biggest concern. The priority is to get Bob his boat built and in the water for his enjoyment and our consideration and then we will be more happy to try and add your wishes. I'm wanted to start the ply version soon but until we get Betts cutting and grinding on Bob's boat...



#115 Bob Perry

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:12 AM

In case you don't know, Rasper ( Rasputin aka Jody Culbertson) is the guy doing the hard work on making the boat come to life. I have been working with Jody on another project and we work well together. Afer that sleepless night when the idea of the peener pod came to me the first thing I did in the morning was to call Jody. By noon I was getting images before he had received my own drawings. We are kind of like the Everly Brothers. But we get along. I sing the high part.

Attached Files



#116 casc27

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:33 AM

Glad I could provide the entertainment Casc.

 

Bob, your posts are usually entertaining or informative.



#117 casc27

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:36 AM

Darts:

 

1. Pub missles.

2. Sharp objects tossed around in kung-fu movies.

3. A mediocre car by Dodge.

4. The act of moving quickly.

5. The stinger of an insect.

6. A verbal jab (I think this is an accepted usage)

7. A tapered cut or fold sewn into a garment to adjust the fit or alter the shape.

 

Number 7 is most appropo to the building technique for Bob's new boat.

 

Ok, I get to go home now. And, yes, that was the most fun I had all day (one of those days).

Not all Dodge Darts were mediocre,

attachicon.gif212285_87562ff0ff_low_res.jpg

It also had a sliding seat, just saying...

 

Well, if it had a sliding seat...

 

Although I'd much rather have a Molteni badged Colnago. Something in the 62 cm size in a track bike would do nicely.



#118 Bob Perry

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:50 AM

Jeezus Casc!

We're talking about Popeye here!

 

Sliding seat my ass.

That is a really stupid image, i.e,. Popeye on a sliding seat.

Next you will want him to turn his har around to reduce windage.

Frontal area my ass.



#119 Dorado

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:25 AM

Hey Bob

 

Here's a highly scientific demonstration of the slickness of a product called Wearlon Wetlander Top Coat

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=8th4LRj5hTA



#120 Bob Perry

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:21 AM

Dorado:

Many thanks. I'll check that out.

Tomorrow.



#121 tls

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:55 AM

In case you don't know, Rasper ( Rasputin aka Jody Culbertson) is the guy doing the hard work on making the boat come to life. 

 

What are you (Rasper?) using for those renderings?  Is there a CAD program that lets you set the surface textures, lighting model, and focal distance?  Are you taking the CAD files into a specialty rendering program? They are tres slick.



#122 fastyacht

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:06 AM

Rhino / Flamingo / Penguin? Or something else? 

I met the guy who developed this:  http://keyshot.com/k...t_for_creo.html

Stuff is getting too real.  :-)



#123 Bob Perry

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:04 PM

The new program is Lamina.

Jody uses Orca but I'll let him tell you about his variety of programs.

 

Here are a couple more of his rendering for our 62' ketch curently being built by Pacific Seacraft in North Carolina.

Attached Files



#124 Rasputin22

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:46 PM

In case you don't know, Rasper ( Rasputin aka Jody Culbertson) is the guy doing the hard work on making the boat come to life. 

 

What are you (Rasper?) using for those renderings?  Is there a CAD program that lets you set the surface textures, lighting model, and focal distance?  Are you taking the CAD files into a specialty rendering program? They are tres slick.

You must be referring to the Catari renderings. The modeling is done in Rhino3D and I was using a standalone renderer called Octane when those were done. Since then, Octane has developed render plugins for a number of CAD softwares, Rhino3d just recently. This allows me to have the Octane render window linked directly to the Rhino model and it updates in near realtime to changes in the model. Before I had to use an exporter that would prep the model and materials and export as an obj to Octane and then rendered in the standalone. The plug-in is a big improvement and you will see the PeaPod rendered in it soon. 



#125 Rasputin22

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:52 PM

Here is an animation of a simple sheet metal project that was done via the combination of Rhino and Lamina. The sculptor Heath Satow does some amazing work and brings new meaning to thinking 'out of the box'. 

 

http://vimeo.com/63932548

 

http://www.publicsculpture.com/



#126 casc27

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:32 PM

Jeezus Casc!

We're talking about Popeye here!

 

Sliding seat my ass.

That is a really stupid image, i.e,. Popeye on a sliding seat.

Next you will want him to turn his har around to reduce windage.

Frontal area my ass.

 

Popeye? Well, crap, I think I need a can of spinach. (Is there anything worse than canned spinach?) And I did say "usually", Bob, not always. Frankly I think the themed names will get old fast. Kind of like all the coffee based BS names swirling around various scripting and programming crap a decade ago.

 

And I think your ass would only be frontal area when in reverse. Yeah, I think that's right...



#127 Bob Perry

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:52 PM

Casc:

Theme names? That's just personal choice, not a requirement. What a silly idea. Not sure a boat like this even needs a name.



#128 nroose

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:15 PM

I'm gonna be late for work because I read every word of this thread all the way through.  I normally skim everything I read, and I tried here, but I kept going back to read every single word...

 

I grew up spending summers in Maine on a rocky beach.  We had a wooden Jimmy Steele peapod and a shitty little fiberglass dinghy.  If the peapod had been alu, we would have used it much more.  We had a "pull off line" to keep them in the water.  And we often waded in to keep the peapod off the rocks.

 

The boat looks great, Bob.  And oh how well it will work!  If I had a rocky beach, I would be choosing "Sea Hag" for mine.



#129 TheFlash

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:19 PM

The new program is Lamina.

Jody uses Orca but I'll let him tell you about his variety of programs.

 

Here are a couple more of his rendering for our 62' ketch curently being built by Pacific Seacraft in North Carolina.

pretty soon you'll load it in the 3d printer and voila!  (at least for the 1/2 model)



#130 SloopJonB

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:52 PM

The new program is Lamina.

Jody uses Orca but I'll let him tell you about his variety of programs.

 

Here are a couple more of his rendering for our 62' ketch curently being built by Pacific Seacraft in North Carolina.

pretty soon you'll load it in the 3d printer and voila!  (at least for the 1/2 model)

 

How long is it going to be before a hull can be done by one of those 3D printers? Those things and those renderings are freakin' magical to an old fart.



#131 familysailor

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:09 PM

The new program is Lamina.

Jody uses Orca but I'll let him tell you about his variety of programs.

 

Here are a couple more of his rendering for our 62' ketch curently being built by Pacific Seacraft in North Carolina.

Wow!

It has a diving board too!



#132 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:38 PM


The new program is Lamina.
Jody uses Orca but I'll let him tell you about his variety of programs.
 
Here are a couple more of his rendering for our 62' ketch curently being built by Pacific Seacraft in North Carolina.

pretty soon you'll load it in the 3d printer and voila!  (at least for the 1/2 model)
 
How long is it going to be before a hull can be done by one of those 3D printers? Those things and those renderings are freakin' magical to an old fart.

Essentially by exporting cad files to machine tools and carving a female mold with it, we are just about there. You could hog out a hull, complete with framing, turn it over and cut the outer mold line now. You would need one hell of a large, high quality blank to start with but the tech is there to do it.

#133 Bob Perry

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:44 PM

Yeah, but my wood models go to 11.



#134 TheFlash

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:55 PM

heres a hull male mold being carved

 

 

 

 


The new program is Lamina.
Jody uses Orca but I'll let him tell you about his variety of programs.
 
Here are a couple more of his rendering for our 62' ketch curently being built by Pacific Seacraft in North Carolina.

pretty soon you'll load it in the 3d printer and voila!  (at least for the 1/2 model)
 
How long is it going to be before a hull can be done by one of those 3D printers? Those things and those renderings are freakin' magical to an old fart.

Essentially by exporting cad files to machine tools and carving a female mold with it, we are just about there. You could hog out a hull, complete with framing, turn it over and cut the outer mold line now. You would need one hell of a large, high quality blank to start with but the tech is there to do it.

heres a video of a male mold being constructed that way



#135 Bulbhunter

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:12 PM

 

 


The new program is Lamina.
Jody uses Orca but I'll let him tell you about his variety of programs.
 
Here are a couple more of his rendering for our 62' ketch curently being built by Pacific Seacraft in North Carolina.

pretty soon you'll load it in the 3d printer and voila!  (at least for the 1/2 model)
 
How long is it going to be before a hull can be done by one of those 3D printers? Those things and those renderings are freakin' magical to an old fart.

Essentially by exporting cad files to machine tools and carving a female mold with it, we are just about there. You could hog out a hull, complete with framing, turn it over and cut the outer mold line now. You would need one hell of a large, high quality blank to start with but the tech is there to do it.

Largest C&C machine in the US is over in the Mojave owned by Rutan pretty amazing piece of kit.



#136 Bulbhunter

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:14 PM

The kids who get 3d Printers for Christmas this year will be our next generation of inventors and engineers. The 3D printer is what the RC models were 20yrs ago. Imagination wasn't really limited by the high cost of trying to build a crazy idea to see if it worked.



#137 TheFlash

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:43 PM

my 8 year old daughter wants one, and wants to hit the Makers Fair.  My 10 year old could give a crap when I'm mucking about in the garage, but the 8 year old is out there building wooden trains, etc.  

 

Is there a child friendly one?  With child friendly control software?

 

 

Should I get one of these gizmos?

 

http://www.indiegogo...onal-fabricator



#138 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:30 AM

I'd like that fabricator, makes a lot of sense. The 3 way functionality is great. Buy a PeaPod from Bob and I'll sign up myself for one, Tough to wait til next Aug though...



#139 TheFlash

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:53 AM

i like the idea of the pea pod a bunch, but wood/epoxy. Happy to wait.



#140 SloopJonB

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:58 AM

 

 


The new program is Lamina.
Jody uses Orca but I'll let him tell you about his variety of programs.
 
Here are a couple more of his rendering for our 62' ketch curently being built by Pacific Seacraft in North Carolina.

pretty soon you'll load it in the 3d printer and voila!  (at least for the 1/2 model)
 
How long is it going to be before a hull can be done by one of those 3D printers? Those things and those renderings are freakin' magical to an old fart.

Essentially by exporting cad files to machine tools and carving a female mold with it, we are just about there. You could hog out a hull, complete with framing, turn it over and cut the outer mold line now. You would need one hell of a large, high quality blank to start with but the tech is there to do it.

 

CNC is pretty amazing, especially now that the price has come down so much but it's still just a hot rodded version of old time machining. The 3D printer process is another big step in tech. When it first showed up I recall it was called Rapid Prototyping and was only happening in the auto manufacturers and so forth - now it's damn near desk top for small stuff.

 

"A 3D printer in every workshop" - a high tech replacement for "Two cars in every garage". :D



#141 Willin'

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:59 AM

I agree. A pod with aluminum thwarts is going to be awfully cold on the cheeks, and that hull, no matter how fine, is going to make lotsa noise in any chop at all.  I'll take plank on frame or strip planked in a heartbeat.



#142 ProaSailor

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:24 AM

i like the idea of the pea pod a bunch, but wood/epoxy. Happy to wait.

 

Curious to see if there is any point to the "origami method" when it comes to wood/epoxy?  I'm not even sure there is a point to it using metal, especially if the hull shape gets distorted for the sole purpose of reducing the length of the welded seams?

 

Some discussion (and images) of a design method here, starting with full chines and then re-orienting the "planks" into a single piece with gaps (darts) that get pulled together:

 

http://www.boatdesig...hino-33787.html

 

Might reduce the need for internal stringers and frames, I guess?



#143 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:55 AM

Willin:

No problemo. It's not your boat. It's mine. Your boat can be wood.

Some of you guys have a hard time grasping the "custom design" process.

I've been at this a while. I understand it thoroughly and in this case I am the client.

 

I'd like it if a lot of you would build the boat in a variety of methods. That would make me really happy.

But I need the alu boat for practical purposes. As I have eplained ad nauseum.



#144 tls

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:28 AM

But this is sailing anarchy, we know stuff better than anyone.  We know what your client wants better than you do, even though you are your client. You should get back to working on the titanium and carbon fiber stripped planked version with the sailing rig. Stretched it to 20' as well, only a relic would want to be seen in a 13' row boat. 

 

Seriously, I think there is a shocking level of demand for a good looking row boat for use as a tender or beach launch.  Almost all of the "row boats" commercially available are actually small power boats that row poorly (and inflatables make shocking poor rowboats).



#145 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:18 AM

    Hey! You are giving away all my secrets! Good link, and that topic was very instrumental in my rendition of the PeaPod. I'll post some images soon that shows how through the use of Lamina to generate the cutting and folding pattern, I have greatly reduced the extension of the gores toward the ends of the plate. No use in cutting and welding almost all the way to the stem and stern so by shortening the darts (or gores) it will hopefully force some compounding into the ends of the boat. Lamina has a setting that lets one set the tolerance for the angle between facets of the mesh to adjust the extent of the ends of the darts. Metalworking practice would probably suggest that I put round holes through the plate at the ends of the darts so as to provide stress relief and prevent cracking that would likely result if the plate were drawn shut to the end of a sharp angle. Welding would probably take care of that, but a hole will let the plate close up more cleanly and the hole will get filled in after the tack welding and finish welding of the seams. Much like a plug weld is used. Bob and I are both eager to work out the details with Jim Betts as to the metal construction technique. I've spent hours looking at YouTube videos of amazing sheet metal working processes and tricks. I'm sure that Bob and Jim will ensure that the Primo Peened Pod will be a wonder. With such a tight limit on overall weight I need to really sharpen my pencil and get the exact weights of the metal components.

 

     I've got some ambitious side flotation tanks devised that will replace a couple of frames and provide a chassis that will bear the structural considerations of the main rowing thwart, outriggers, and oarlocks as well as providing around 300 lbs of reserve flotation. We will take a look at flooded stability and the interaction of the flotation tanks closely as there are two attributes that are desired. It is a complicated issue, but the ability to be self-bailing and self-righting are somewhat at odds with one another. A double bottom such as those on the S. Ca lifeguard surf dory, has freeing ports just above the waterline, but I imagine that volume and flotation that low in the boat would be counter to self-righting. I'm trying to provide volume and flotation right up under the gunnel to add righting moment when flooded. I'd think that I'd rather have my pad self right and get its rail above the water to a point that I could bail it out. Also if trying to board the boat after an upset and winding up swimming alongside the boat, the limited flotation in the tanks would allow the rail to be pushed under and slither aboard and still have enough rail out of the water that bailing could be effective. Flotation tanks in the ends of the boat would work along with the side tanks in this respect but I can't seem to get the boat to be both self righting and self bailing without full decks. Self rescue is the key word here.  Bob and Jim and I will come up with a good solution in time.



#146 Ishmael

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:31 AM

Self-bailing is going to be a lot of heavy structure and freeboard and not in the design brief that I saw. Did I miss something again?



#147 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:43 AM

Self bailing?

 

Fuck, I want to go rowing not swimming.



#148 TheFlash

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:51 AM

This is very cool to watch develop. thanks.



#149 Rasputin22

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:56 AM

Right, I'd be satisfied with self righting. There was talk of a double bottom, but that leads one down the slippery slope to self-bailing. So, all we want is the rail out of the water enough to make bailing with a proper bucket a sensible proposition. And the ability to board the boat after a capsize. ORCA will help in determining how this all plays out. We will try and keep swimming out of the equation. In your local waters Bob, I think a swim would be better described as a lot of fast breathing due to the water temps. I've gotten to be a wimp when it comes to water temperature that I would willingly subject my body to.



#150 Kirwan

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:28 PM

Right, I'd be satisfied with self righting. There was talk of a double bottom, but that leads one down the slippery slope to self-bailing. So, all we want is the rail out of the water enough to make bailing with a proper bucket a sensible proposition. And the ability to board the boat after a capsize. ORCA will help in determining how this all plays out. We will try and keep swimming out of the equation. In your local waters Bob, I think a swim would be better described as a lot of fast breathing due to the water temps. I've gotten to be a wimp when it comes to water temperature that I would willingly subject my body to.

 

I think Bob would figure out how to get back in mighty quick if there were an ORCA swimming about.



#151 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:38 PM

I'm a very good swimmer. That was my sport. Zero hand /eye coordination but I can swim.  And yes with an Orca on my ass I could shave a few seconds off my best 50m time I'm sure. The water at the beach stays around 50 degs max year round. It's not my kind of swimming temp but some of my neighbors swim regularily in the summer.

 

The peen pod has a 4" side deck with a little trim on it and very good stability numbers. But they are just numbers and I'll have to get in it and rioll around a bit to get a feel for it. Like you automatically do when you get in a new kayak. You test the limits. But I think with that small side deck and some prudence there will be room for error with swamping the boat. I've rowed shells and wherries and they are tippy. I think I can handle it.



#152 tls

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:31 PM

    

     I've got some ambitious side flotation tanks devised that will replace a couple of frames and provide a chassis that will bear the structural considerations of the main rowing thwart, outriggers, and oarlocks as well as providing around 300 lbs of reserve flotation. We will take a look at flooded stability and the interaction of the flotation tanks closely as there are two attributes that are desired. It is a complicated issue, but the ability to be self-bailing and self-righting are somewhat at odds with one another.

 

In my opinion, having flooded stability is much better than self-bailing for human powered boats.  Canoes and rowboats seem to have either a trivial amount of water in the bottom, or they are totally swamped.



#153 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:39 PM

tls:

I agree with you. Given the way this boat will be used having it swamp would require some unusual circumstances. I know my way around small boats as does my wife and my son.



#154 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:53 PM

tls

Not all origami boats need to have darts. But they are shaped in such a way that would be hard to compare to the peapod Bob is talking about.

 

attachicon.gif272R-03.jpg

 

This is a cool boat, but why is that consider origami?  That seems to be built like any other metal boat with a chine in the bilges.  I think I may not be clear how origami differs from other build techniques.  Is it because the skin is forced into some limited compound curves, rather than sticking strictly to conic sections?  

Actually the whole boat is drawn without chine, chine lines or what. What you see as a white surface is the waterline in elevation view.



#155 Steam Flyer

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:01 PM

    

     I've got some ambitious side flotation tanks devised that will replace a couple of frames and provide a chassis that will bear the structural considerations of the main rowing thwart, outriggers, and oarlocks as well as providing around 300 lbs of reserve flotation. We will take a look at flooded stability and the interaction of the flotation tanks closely as there are two attributes that are desired. It is a complicated issue, but the ability to be self-bailing and self-righting are somewhat at odds with one another.

 

In my opinion, having flooded stability is much better than self-bailing for human powered boats.  Canoes and rowboats seem to have either a trivial amount of water in the bottom, or they are totally swamped.

 

If the boat is self-bailing, then "flooded stability" is one of those vague terms that are only of historical interest like the Treaty of Ghent

 

I bailed out plenty of boats, never learned to like it. The trick is to gain self-bailing capability without raising the Center of Gravity too high.

 

Self-bailing vs flooded stability... hmm which is better... hmm which to they design into lifeboats... hmmm

 

FB- Doug



#156 ProaSailor

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:08 PM

Self-bailing vs flooded stability... hmm which is better... hmm which to they design into lifeboats... hmmm
 
FB- Doug

 

But this boat isn't intended for surf rescues. Get real.



#157 Bob Perry

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:30 PM

Surf rescues?

Yes!

 

I'll wear my little Bondi bonnet and my speedos.

I can do that.

 

I'll try. I don't think my ass would like that feeling.

Attached Files



#158 Timo42

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:52 PM

Bad Bob :blink:



#159 Steam Flyer

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:58 AM

Surf rescues?

Yes!

 

I'll wear my little Bondi bonnet and my speedos.

I can do that.

 

I'll try. I don't think my ass would like that feeling.

 

Never mind. I'll bail out a few boats if I don't have to look at that.

 

FB- Doug



#160 Ishmael

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:19 AM

Eeeew. On top of turkey dinner, I'm going to have nightmares tonight.



#161 Paul Romain Tober

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:03 PM

Interesting discussion of Titanium but my boat always was and will be an aluminum boat.
 
Jim Lee:
Betts is in Friday Harbor this week working on his house. I'll come up next week. We can try that Chinese joint.
 
Romaine:
I don't like the sheer on That Bolger boat. That's the first time I have ever said that. But to my old eye it kind of goes wonky in the ends.


I posted the Bolger peapod plan and photograph not because I thought it was particularly beautiful, but rather because it has what I think are some interesting design features among those the standing rowing option, the movable (not sliding) seat(s), the removable keel. the sailing option and the tiller lock.

Romain

#162 Bob Perry

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:02 PM

Romain:

I am paying attention to all the ideas being presented here.

There is no question that some of the peen pods will be modified to meet owner requirements. Building in alu gives us a lot of freedom that way.



#163 mikewof

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:19 PM

Question about the Origami method when used with aluminum sheeting ...

Why cut darts in the sheet which then either have to be TiG welded or rolled and pounded in order to make a waterproof seam?

Would it be easier to hammer a score in the sheet and then fold the scores rather than cut them, then hammer the extra material down?

Is the reason it isn't done like this is to avoid the bulges on the inside of the hull of the extra material? (I would rather live with the bulges than worry about the lifetime of a weld.)

#164 Bob Perry

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:24 PM

Mike:

I am not concerned at all about welds. A good portion of the PNW commercial fishing fleet is welded alu. Almost the entire Bristol  Bay fishing fleet is welded alu. If it worksd for them and the use they see I am confident it will work for me. I cannot live with bulges. Some of these questions would be better addressed by Jim Betts the builder.  I don't weld. I have never built a metal boat. I just say, "Make it like this. Call me when you are done."

 

I am getting daily emails from Jim Betts. To say he is fired up would be an understatment. This is going to be a kick.



#165 ProaSailor

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:02 PM

Very choice. 
 
Aluminum is a good material for resisting bumps and bruises, but were you at all tempted by Chesapeake Light Craft's Expedition Wherry?

 
I think a more similar boat, though with more beam for sailing, would be the 15' CLC Skerry.
 

There is not an ugly line on this boat. The sheer is beautiful and accented by the lines of the chines. The chines add interest and eye candy to an already appealing boat. The pea pod plan form shape is very traditional and makes this boat row sweetly.

-- Robert H. Perry, SAILING MAGAZINE SMALL BOAT ISSUE- JUNE 2003

 
IMG_1796.JPG
 
clc_skerry_sailing.jpg

#166 Bob Perry

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:12 PM

Proa:

 I agree. Some additional beam would make it a far better sailboat. But through the magic of computers the addition of 12" more beam would be easy.

But I certainly do noit want it for rowing and I want a row boat. When I want an alu sailboat I will design one.

 

That is a beauty in your pics. Looks like a 1" dia mainsheet.



#167 Alpha FB

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:42 PM

Mike:
I am not concerned at all about welds. A good portion of the PNW commercial fishing fleet is welded alu. Almost the entire Bristol  Bay fishing fleet is welded alu. If it worksd for them and the use they see I am confident it will work for me. I cannot live with bulges. Some of these questions would be better addressed by Jim Betts the builder.  I don't weld. I have never built a metal boat. I just say, "Make it like this. Call me when you are done."
 
I am getting daily emails from Jim Betts. To say he is fired up would be an understatment. This is going to be a kick.

Any chance of getting him to sign up here so we can get his side as well?

#168 tad

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:12 PM

I agree. A pod with aluminum thwarts is going to be awfully cold on the cheeks, and that hull, no matter how fine, is going to make lotsa noise in any chop at all.  I'll take plank on frame or strip planked in a heartbeat.

 

A traditional BC Handliner feature is the "Dry-Assed Seat" , just some string and a couple of wedges.  Form-fitting and very comfortable for long days of rowing and fishing.....

 

Handliner.jpg



#169 Rasputin22

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:46 PM

Attached File  p1.jpg   71.49K   84 downloads



#170 Alpha FB

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:53 PM

attachicon.gifp1.jpg


Wow that looks tough!

#171 Lummux the Great

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:30 PM

 


Looks good Bob
 
Are you going to coat the bottom like the steelheaders do with their alum. driftboats.

 

How about a nice titanium coating?
 

http://www.gizmag.co...oforming/24608/

Titanium is a great idea. Bob should build the "next Anarchy 30" out if it.

#172 fastyacht

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:44 PM

I agree. A pod with aluminum thwarts is going to be awfully cold on the cheeks, and that hull, no matter how fine, is going to make lotsa noise in any chop at all.  I'll take plank on frame or strip planked in a heartbeat.

 

A traditional BC Handliner feature is the "Dry-Assed Seat" , just some string and a couple of wedges.  Form-fitting and very comfortable for long days of rowing and fishing.....

 

Handliner.jpg

 

+1

What's great about traditional workboats is the total lack of "styling" but preponderance of good design.



#173 zenmasterfred

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:51 PM

Hey Bobber:

I heard a letter from an old Springfield Rifle member on Vinyl Tap w/ Randy Bachman last night named Bob.  Ahhh, the old days, if you can remember them you weren't there.  Sorry for the hijack.  Now back to our regular programming.

G.



#174 By the lee

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:16 AM

Will you have foam or watertight compartments in the ends?

 

Was wondering this too. Prolly foam as it's a little hard to weld up an air tight space although I suppose one could epoxy up the blow-hole. Or 5200 a panel in place. 



#175 Bob Perry

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:28 PM

Shit Zen, we had company for dinner and I didn't listen to Vinyl Tap.

You write those letters assuming they will never get read. I had forgotten I wrote it.

 

What did Randy say?



#176 Bulbhunter

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:05 PM

I agree. A pod with aluminum thwarts is going to be awfully cold on the cheeks, and that hull, no matter how fine, is going to make lotsa noise in any chop at all.  I'll take plank on frame or strip planked in a heartbeat.

 

No one has asked Bob about his heated ummm seat status perhaps he's just going to ask Santa for another heated seat and put it in the PeaPod? Which case cold bum won't be as much of an issue but legs falling asleep might be. HA HA



#177 Bob Perry

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:56 PM

I'll just wear my flannel lined "old man's jeans".



#178 The Advocate

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:06 AM

Shit Zen, we had company for dinner and I didn't listen to Vinyl Tap.

You write those letters assuming they will never get read. I had forgotten I wrote it.

 

What did Randy say?

Bob,

 

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=151936



#179 rantifarian

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:58 AM

    Hey! You are giving away all my secrets! Good link, and that topic was very instrumental in my rendition of the PeaPod. I'll post some images soon that shows how through the use of Lamina to generate the cutting and folding pattern, I have greatly reduced the extension of the gores toward the ends of the plate. No use in cutting and welding almost all the way to the stem and stern so by shortening the darts (or gores) it will hopefully force some compounding into the ends of the boat. Lamina has a setting that lets one set the tolerance for the angle between facets of the mesh to adjust the extent of the ends of the darts. Metalworking practice would probably suggest that I put round holes through the plate at the ends of the darts so as to provide stress relief and prevent cracking that would likely result if the plate were drawn shut to the end of a sharp angle. Welding would probably take care of that, but a hole will let the plate close up more cleanly and the hole will get filled in after the tack welding and finish welding of the seams. Much like a plug weld is used. Bob and I are both eager to work out the details with Jim Betts as to the metal construction technique. I've spent hours looking at YouTube videos of amazing sheet metal working processes and tricks. I'm sure that Bob and Jim will ensure that the Primo Peened Pod will be a wonder. With such a tight limit on overall weight I need to really sharpen my pencil and get the exact weights of the metal components.

I would be really interested in seeing some of your workflow in Lamina to generate the patterns. It is interesting that it doesn't have an automatic option of add bend relief in each corner, I do a bit of sheet metal work in Inventor, and the automated bend relief shapes are great.



#180 ProaSailor

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:02 AM

pretty soon you'll load it in the 3d printer and voila!  (at least for the 1/2 model)

 
3-D printer used to manufacture car body
http://www.sfgate.co...ody-4898454.php
 

"What we like about 3-D printing is it can print anything," Kor said Tuesday during a presentation at the Verge technology and sustainability conference in San Francisco. "And when you can print anything, you can think of everything."

 

628x471.jpg



#181 knobblyoldjimbo

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:23 AM

Dart?  This is a Dart.

 

daimler-dart-01.jpg

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Daimler_SP250

 

Now there's ugly!



#182 fastyacht

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:32 PM

I know a guy who used to race those.



#183 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:42 PM

I like it as lot. It has the retro look going for it. Who built that car?

 

I Googled it. That is extremely cool. Daimlier Dart with a 140hp hemi engine.



#184 fastyacht

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:46 PM

Daimler. Not to be confused with Daimler-Benz.  The latter is German, the former is English.



#185 casc27

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:17 PM

<hijack>

 

I wonder if the peenpod will be strong enough to endure the amorous advances of whales like another BP design: http://www.sfbaysss....p=7784#post7784

 

</hijack>



#186 fastyacht

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:24 PM

Apparently Bob has a knack for drawing whale porn.



#187 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:36 PM

Right on, whales LOVE my boats. Or try to. I know that story well.

 

Just spoke to Betts. He is hot to go. I will meet with him on Monday.



#188 billy backstay

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:07 PM

<hijack>

 

I wonder if the peenpod will be strong enough to endure the amorous advances of whales like another BP design: http://www.sfbaysss....p=7784#post7784

 

</hijack>

 

Funniest boat story I have ever read!!  And great thread!  You go, BOB!!



#189 olaf hart

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

I like it as lot. It has the retro look going for it. Who built that car?

 

I Googled it. That is extremely cool. Daimlier Dart with a 140hp hemi engine.

 

It was a little 2.5L V8, you could also get it in a Daimler badged Mark 2 Jaguar body.

 

I used to work at a gas station  in my school holidays, in an upmarket area in Sydney.

 

I got to drive one of the jag bodied Damilers quite a bit. Also 66 Mustangs, but the best was an original wooden bodied Bugatti.



#190 phillysailor

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:01 PM

I've spent some time at Boat Shows chatting with Mustang and Musto and other makers of rescue gear to convince them to attach an inflatable life jacket trigger to a buoyancy bag so I could attach it to the top of my mast for capsize prevention. I even bought a Mustang canister and submersion trigger and cut a hole in a Holt-Allen blue buoyancy bag to mount it, but never thought it would actually stand up to rigorous use. I sail a small boat with a large cockpit, and this problem weighs large in my "risk" column.

 

Other than realize that I misspell "buoyancy" 60% of the time, I've convinced myself that without a manufacturer's support this idea will go no further. But it seems that here is another way these guys could tap into a market. The only "cheap" way of getting self-bailing and self-righting in a large cockpit small boat I can think of would involve automatic CO2 triggers. 

 

I wish those companies thought so too!

 

My "solution" has been to install ten buoyancy bags with velcro straps under the gunnels and under the forward storage deck, secured to the under deck with bolts and screws depending on location and access. Good piece of mind, but I haven't yet had the opportunity to test them formally.



#191 Tom Ray

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:08 PM

Bob, one redneck friend said he uses Steelflex and another a polymer sheet on his airboat, but these people claim to have the latest and greatest airboat slick bottom coating.



#192 Bob Perry

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:20 PM

Philly:

I can't spell bouyancy either. Never could. Not going to start now.



#193 casc27

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:49 PM

Philly:

I can't spell bouyancy either. Never could. Not going to start now.

 

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

Attributed to Andrew Jackson (http://en.wikiquote..../Andrew_Jackson)

 

I've been using this for years. Even had it on the door to my office when I was a lit. instructor at the U of Oregon. (Followed by a note that spelling would still count when grading essays.) But I think on here spelling is irrelevant. For confirmation  you should ask Snaggy if you can find him.



#194 SloopJonB

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:31 PM

One of my kids teachers used the expression "Uses non-traditional spelling" in her comments on report cards to denote a kid who couldn't spell.

 

I thought that was pretty pathetic but all too typical of teachers these days



#195 TheFlash

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:46 PM

I've spent some time at Boat Shows chatting with Mustang and Musto and other makers of rescue gear to convince them to attach an inflatable life jacket trigger to a buoyancy bag so I could attach it to the top of my mast for capsize prevention. I even bought a Mustang canister and submersion trigger and cut a hole in a Holt-Allen blue buoyancy bag to mount it, but never thought it would actually stand up to rigorous use. I sail a small boat with a large cockpit, and this problem weighs large in my "risk" column.

 

Other than realize that I misspell "buoyancy" 60% of the time, I've convinced myself that without a manufacturer's support this idea will go no further. But it seems that here is another way these guys could tap into a market. The only "cheap" way of getting self-bailing and self-righting in a large cockpit small boat I can think of would involve automatic CO2 triggers. 

 

I wish those companies thought so too!

 

My "solution" has been to install ten buoyancy bags with velcro straps under the gunnels and under the forward storage deck, secured to the under deck with bolts and screws depending on location and access. Good piece of mind, but I haven't yet had the opportunity to test them formally.

 

It exists - it's made by a European company.  Secumar I believe.  I use one on my Multi23, but these things do require maintenance and aren't cheap.  That might be contrary to the customer's desire.



#196 unShirley

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:43 AM

My "solution" has been to install ten buoyancy bags with velcro straps under the gunnels and under the forward storage deck, secured to the under deck with bolts and screws depending on location and access. Good piece of mind, but I haven't yet had the opportunity to test them formally.

 

 

You do know that the figure of speech is "peace of mind,"  when used in this context, right?  ok, ok, I just wanted to give you a little piece of my mind while you try to figure out how to spell buoyancy.



#197 nroose

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 08:02 AM

Is this project progressing?



#198 Bob Perry

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 03:00 PM

I got side tracked by some other work. Maybe when it warms up a bit the mood will set in again.



#199 view at the front

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:00 AM

Bob

 

I may have volunteered for a SA seafood cook-off on the SA Recipe Thread (Boothie is probably eliminated due to bad behavior), and suggested that the pulling boat would make harvesting more fun.  It's not the same in the 8' Livingston or the kayak.






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