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ETNZ's next dumb move...


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#1 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:01 AM

You heard it here first...

Dean, in order to appease the minority of ANTI Coutts "Dean's our man" brigade (who promote mediocrity) ,will not engage with Russ and try and get him involved with TNZ.

Big mistake!

Why would you not being trying to get Coutts on board as fast as possible regardless of the cost and repercussions.

It would be better to have Coutts working for you than against you.

Even if you paid him to do nothing. That has got to be to your advantage.

But no! The pathetic Kiwi ignorance and unwarranted loyalty, to a bunch of losers, will override smart thinking and winning the cup.

Yip you heard it here first...

#2 TKR

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:34 AM

The kiwi's need to blood new helmsman. Barker is a "good" sailor, but not "great". He's cracked too many times under pressure, and you need to be "great" to win the America's Cup.

 

If Coutts came in he would make changes, so some in TNZ will be looking to protect theirs own asses and will do anything to keep the likes of Coutts out.



#3 dgg

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:09 AM

You heard it here first...

Dean, in order to appease the minority of ANTI Coutts "Dean's our man" brigade (who promote mediocrity) ,will not engage with Russ and try and get him involved with TNZ.

Big mistake!

Why would you not being trying to get Coutts on board as fast as possible regardless of the cost and repercussions.

It would be better to have Coutts working for you than against you.

Even if you paid him to do nothing. That has got to be to your advantage.

But no! The pathetic Kiwi ignorance and unwarranted loyalty, to a bunch of losers, will override smart thinking and winning the cup.

Yip you heard it here first...

FFS yankee you are the most bitter and twisted fucker on this site. Did Deano upset you some where in the past. Get kicked off the team maybe. You hide behind the yankee BS but suspect this is a smokescreen for your home grown vitriol. Just chill a little.



#4 WetHog

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:46 AM

Why constantly troll Kiwi's?

 

Yankee Doodle?  Uncle Sam has a message for you:

 

24pjgu8.jpg

 

More like Yankee Douche.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#5 TKR

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:25 AM

 Did Deano upset you some where in the past.

 

Yup, 3 times to be exact - a 3 time America's cup loser.

 

2003 LOSER

 

2007 LOSER

 

2013 LOSER



#6 Flippin Out

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:47 AM

.

Attached Files



#7 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:53 AM

The greatest pleasure I get from offering different perspective on ETNZ's big CHOKE, under the poor leadership of Bean Darker, is exposing all the fuck knuckles that reply with garbage.

It is good to expose all these idiots to the Forum for all to judge.

Carry on :-)

#8 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:55 AM

You heard it here first...
Dean, in order to appease the minority of ANTI Coutts "Dean's our man" brigade (who promote mediocrity) ,will not engage with Russ and try and get him involved with TNZ.
Big mistake!
Why would you not being trying to get Coutts on board as fast as possible regardless of the cost and repercussions.
It would be better to have Coutts working for you than against you.
Even if you paid him to do nothing. That has got to be to your advantage.
But no! The pathetic Kiwi ignorance and unwarranted loyalty, to a bunch of losers, will override smart thinking and winning the cup.
Yip you heard it here first...

FFS yankee you are the most bitter and twisted fucker on this site. Did Deano upset you some where in the past. Get kicked off the team maybe. You hide behind the yankee BS but suspect this is a smokescreen for your home grown vitriol. Just chill a little.
totally chilled dude and enjoying all the vitriol from idiots such as yourself.

Why not debate the topic instead of getting upset at the truth of the message

#9 Paperinick

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:11 AM

The kiwi's need to blood new helmsman. Barker is a "good" sailor, but not "great". He's cracked too many times under pressure, and you need to be "great" to win the America's Cup.
 
If Coutts came in he would make changes, so some in TNZ will be looking to protect theirs own asses and will do anything to keep the likes of Coutts out.



+1 . Further not sure TNZ could afford RC which seems to go where big money is

#10 sclarke

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:12 AM

 

You heard it here first...
Dean, in order to appease the minority of ANTI Coutts "Dean's our man" brigade (who promote mediocrity) ,will not engage with Russ and try and get him involved with TNZ.
Big mistake!
Why would you not being trying to get Coutts on board as fast as possible regardless of the cost and repercussions.
It would be better to have Coutts working for you than against you.
Even if you paid him to do nothing. That has got to be to your advantage.
But no! The pathetic Kiwi ignorance and unwarranted loyalty, to a bunch of losers, will override smart thinking and winning the cup.
Yip you heard it here first...

FFS yankee you are the most bitter and twisted fucker on this site. Did Deano upset you some where in the past. Get kicked off the team maybe. You hide behind the yankee BS but suspect this is a smokescreen for your home grown vitriol. Just chill a little.
totally chilled dude and enjoying all the vitriol from idiots such as yourself.

Why not debate the topic instead of getting upset at the truth of the message

Dude, I don't get it. So Kiwi's are behind ETNZ. What's wrong with unconditionally supporting your countrymen in a sport which is a pasion in our country? They lost. Yes, but if everyone stopped supporting a team because they lose, there would be no sport. Every team loses some times. They didn't lose because of bad management or bad leadership. Grant did what he could in raising money and getting sponsorship, and allocating the funds in the right areas. Dean did all he could on the water, ETNZ did all they could. New Zealand watched as ETNZ gave that last match everything. After making a meal of the 2 previous starts, We wanted Dean to win the start, he did, we wanted him to lead around the first mark, he did, they just weren't fast enough, and that was it. They had a great campaign, and they sailed well generally through the whole event. There was mistakes, yes, but we can't begrudge them for making mistakes, they represented themselves and New Zealand as best they could. It just wasn't enough. Kiwi's are passionate supporters of our national teams, wether they win or lose, thats just the way it is. Unconditional.



#11 TKR

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:22 AM

Dude, I don't get it. So Kiwi's are behind ETNZ. What's wrong with unconditionally supporting your countrymen in a sport which is a pasion in our country?

 

What's wrong?

 

What's wrong is my tax dollars going into 3 time America's Cup loser Dean Barkers new multi-million dollar house.



#12 strider470

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:35 AM


 


You heard it here first...
Dean, in order to appease the minority of ANTI Coutts "Dean's our man" brigade (who promote mediocrity) ,will not engage with Russ and try and get him involved with TNZ.
Big mistake!
Why would you not being trying to get Coutts on board as fast as possible regardless of the cost and repercussions.
It would be better to have Coutts working for you than against you.
Even if you paid him to do nothing. That has got to be to your advantage.
But no! The pathetic Kiwi ignorance and unwarranted loyalty, to a bunch of losers, will override smart thinking and winning the cup.
Yip you heard it here first...

FFS yankee you are the most bitter and twisted fucker on this site. Did Deano upset you some where in the past. Get kicked off the team maybe. You hide behind the yankee BS but suspect this is a smokescreen for your home grown vitriol. Just chill a little.
totally chilled dude and enjoying all the vitriol from idiots such as yourself.

Why not debate the topic instead of getting upset at the truth of the message
Dude, I don't get it. So Kiwi's are behind ETNZ. What's wrong with unconditionally supporting your countrymen in a sport which is a pasion in our country? They lost. Yes, but if everyone stopped supporting a team because they lose, there would be no sport. Every team loses some times. They didn't lose because of bad management or bad leadership. Grant did what he could in raising money and getting sponsorship, and allocating the funds in the right areas. Dean did all he could on the water, ETNZ did all they could. New Zealand watched as ETNZ gave that last match everything. After making a meal of the 2 previous starts, We wanted Dean to win the start, he did, we wanted him to lead around the first mark, he did, they just weren't fast enough, and that was it. They had a great campaign, and they sailed well generally through the whole event. There was mistakes, yes, but we can't begrudge them for making mistakes, they represented themselves and New Zealand as best they could. It just wasn't enough. Kiwi's are passionate supporters of our national teams, wether they win or lose, thats just the way it is. Unconditional.

Good post. But with the troll you are wasting your time.

#13 snaerk

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:05 AM

This particular troll is lyl the mithologickel Hydra



#14 mili

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:32 AM

Some posts here make me laugh.. Two more knots in that suspended race and DB would be national hero, and nobody would care if he was building three multimillion dollar houses.



#15 strider470

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:38 AM


Some posts here make me laugh.. Two more knots in that suspended race and DB would be national hero, and nobody would care if he was building three multimillion dollar houses.


+1000

#16 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:30 AM

Some posts here make me laugh.. Two more knots in that suspended race and DB would be national hero, and nobody would care if he was building three multimillion dollar houses.

If! 2 more knots, if if if...

If Jimmy did not push for change!

If jimmy did not drive his team to sort the foil control issues

The if's did not happen!

If's are excuses for losers

#17 vij

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:37 AM

Some posts here make me laugh.. Two more knots in that suspended race and DB would be national hero, and nobody would care if he was building three multimillion dollar houses.


If! 2 more knots, if if if...

If Jimmy did not push for change!

If jimmy did not drive his team to sort the foil control issues

The if's did not happen!

It's are excuses for losers

 

 

Do you really think that it was Jimmy alone in the team that pushed for foil control issues. Dont you think that it was any one more? Do you think that Larry was sitting down saying that dont worry about a thing. Just keep loosing. I dont mind.

 

I am sure that soon you will tell us that Jimmy designed the whole boat too.



#18 mili

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:42 AM

Some posts here make me laugh.. Two more knots in that suspended race and DB would be national hero, and nobody would care if he was building three multimillion dollar houses.


If! 2 more knots, if if if...

If Jimmy did not push for change!

If jimmy did not drive his team to sort the foil control issues

The if's did not happen!

It's are excuses for losers

In every event there is one winner, by your terms the rest are all loosers. Certainly you are a winner, can I get an autograph?



#19 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 08:52 AM


 


You heard it here first...
Dean, in order to appease the minority of ANTI Coutts "Dean's our man" brigade (who promote mediocrity) ,will not engage with Russ and try and get him involved with TNZ.
Big mistake!
Why would you not being trying to get Coutts on board as fast as possible regardless of the cost and repercussions.
It would be better to have Coutts working for you than against you.
Even if you paid him to do nothing. That has got to be to your advantage.
But no! The pathetic Kiwi ignorance and unwarranted loyalty, to a bunch of losers, will override smart thinking and winning the cup.
Yip you heard it here first...

FFS yankee you are the most bitter and twisted fucker on this site. Did Deano upset you some where in the past. Get kicked off the team maybe. You hide behind the yankee BS but suspect this is a smokescreen for your home grown vitriol. Just chill a little.
totally chilled dude and enjoying all the vitriol from idiots such as yourself.
Why not debate the topic instead of getting upset at the truth of the message
Dude, I don't get it. So Kiwi's are behind ETNZ. What's wrong with unconditionally supporting your countrymen in a sport which is a pasion in our country? They lost. Yes, but if everyone stopped supporting a team because they lose, there would be no sport. Every team loses some times. They didn't lose because of bad management or bad leadership. Grant did what he could in raising money and getting sponsorship, and allocating the funds in the right areas. Dean did all he could on the water, ETNZ did all they could. New Zealand watched as ETNZ gave that last match everything. After making a meal of the 2 previous starts, We wanted Dean to win the start, he did, we wanted him to lead around the first mark, he did, they just weren't fast enough, and that was it. They had a great campaign, and they sailed well generally through the whole event. There was mistakes, yes, but we can't begrudge them for making mistakes, they represented themselves and New Zealand as best they could. It just wasn't enough. Kiwi's are passionate supporters of our national teams, wether they win or lose, thats just the way it is. Unconditional.
I have never had an issue with the team continuing! It just cannot continue with failed and incompetent management and leadership.

Even Dalton agrees with me. He says it has to change.

Coutts is a guru and a smart team CEO would get him onboard yesterday!

But no! We have an incompetent skipper wanting to continue with days of another big loss! He is a Muppet making a decision so quickly and he is arrogant to think the next leader actually wants him.

He is doing this to, obviously, protect his very tender situation and mind set.

He needs to really analyze his performance and ask himself if he truly is capable of winning.

He is quick to jump in and go again because he cannot go anywhere else. But worse than that is the lack of leadership in the team right now! Is Barker steeping up? No he is weak and not a leader. He need to be led. Which is why there is such a disorganized scenario going on.

Where is the New CEO to review the big choke, where is the independent evaluation of each team members efforts and value, where is the managment when it comes to chasing the best sailors for AC35? and where is the new leader to lead this team forward.

This is a bigger fuck up than losing with a 8:1 lead.

And all we hear is a plea to government to give this bunch of disorganized Muppet more money.

How proffesional is that.

Right now the same muppets that choked and had no response to Oracles changing of gears in San Fran are in charge of the clean up

Also, it cannot be funded by GOVT funding. Imagine if other Govt,s got behind national AC teams!?

It would be a disaster and NZ would lose out.

IF THIS TEAM IS SO GOOD... THEN MONEY WILL COME!...but not with the nutjobs running the mental home.

#20 PYC

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:51 AM

ETNZ management is so incompetent that:

-No one was able to win against them in LVC.

-When they started to race against Oracle, ETNZ was clearly faster, despite less fundings.

-Oracle had to  copy almost everything to improve: boat rigidity, foils design and placement, rudders, jibing and tacking technics.

-When Oracle recovered and improved their boat, ETNZ was still able to win three races with a slower boat.

 

I don't want to minimize Oracle victory. They did a fantastic work. But I am really impressed by what did ETNZ.

 

And in the end, if ETNZ is so bad, it is simply not acceptable that oracle lost so many races against them!



#21 vij

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:23 AM

ETNZ management is so incompetent that:

-No one was able to win against them in LVC.

-When they started to race against Oracle, ETNZ was clearly faster, despite less fundings.

-Oracle had to  copy almost everything to improve: boat rigidity, foils design and placement, rudders, jibing and tacking technics.

-When Oracle recovered and improved their boat, ETNZ was still able to win three races with a slower boat.

 

I don't want to minimize Oracle victory. They did a fantastic work. But I am really impressed by what did ETNZ.

 

And in the end, if ETNZ is so bad, it is simply not acceptable that oracle lost so many races against them!

 

 

You forgot to say that NZ has been in every AC final since 1995 with exception of the one in 2010 as they were not invited. Lets see how is OR:s history. When were they in the AC finals? Lets see. 1995? 2000? 2003? 2007?

 

In 2010 it was only because of the Alinghis fuck up that OR managed to be in the AC finals. The win was only due to the fact that they had a wing and only due to the wing. I think we have to give that win to the design team. Not much sailing skills there is it.

 

If fact 2013 is the only time that OR has ever been winning by sailing any thing and they were very close to loose.

 

Like PYC said I don't want to minimize Oracle victory. They did a fantastic work. And in the end, if ETNZ is so bad, it is simply not acceptable that oracle lost so many races against them.



#22 aldo

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

Who's happy right now and who's not?

I'll give you one guess.

 

 

ETNZ management is so incompetent that:

-No one was able to win against them in LVC.

-When they started to race against Oracle, ETNZ was clearly faster, despite less fundings.

-Oracle had to  copy almost everything to improve: boat rigidity, foils design and placement, rudders, jibing and tacking technics.

-When Oracle recovered and improved their boat, ETNZ was still able to win three races with a slower boat.

 

I don't want to minimize Oracle victory. They did a fantastic work. But I am really impressed by what did ETNZ.

 

And in the end, if ETNZ is so bad, it is simply not acceptable that oracle lost so many races against them!

 

 

You forgot to say that NZ has been in every AC final since 1995 with exception of the one in 2010 as they were not invited. Lets see how is OR:s history. When were they in the AC finals? Lets see. 1995? 2000? 2003? 2007?

 

In 2010 it was only because of the Alinghis fuck up that OR managed to be in the AC finals. The win was only due to the fact that they had a wing and only due to the wing. I think we have to give that win to the design team. Not much sailing skills there is it.

 

If fact 2013 is the only time that OR has ever been winning by sailing any thing and they were very close to loose.

 

Like PYC said I don't want to minimize Oracle victory. They did a fantastic work. And in the end, if ETNZ is so bad, it is simply not acceptable that oracle lost so many races against them.



#23 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:10 PM

Yankee Doodle is posting from Kiwiland, folks.  

 

FWIW.



#24 burbanite

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:20 PM

OTUSA are the chokers here clearly. With all of their resources and obvious talent they couldn't hit the side of a barn when it came to designing, building or sailing a foiling cat. It took them months to get it to the point where it was even half ready to race and it wasn't until their modestly funded yet dedicated rival showed them how to do everything that they actually became competitive.

 

Kind of like looking over at your classmates test answers to get to the end. They weren't even on the same planet until they copied the guy next to them.

 

Shame on them, they should have been light years ahead from the first time they hit the water but all we saw was a complete lack of leadership and direction from the team with the most resources. They floundered around, didn't know what to do next until someone had the bright idea of doing the same thing as the team that had their shit together.

 

At that point, once they realized how screwed up they were they managed to spend their way to the top and use everything that a successful team had done to beat them.

 

Yep, my friggin' heroes, what a bunch of losers. And every day they are still parading around like peacocks, showing up on the morning shows and the late shows, owning the narrative because they don't want anyone to actually see that it was them that was lacking not the team they beat.



#25 burbanite

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:21 PM

Yankee Doodle is posting from Kiwiland, folks.  

 

FWIW.

 

I was waiting for you to take a look, thanks.



#26 fallsailor

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:37 PM

Yankee Doodle is posting from Kiwiland, folks.  
 
FWIW.


Thanks Clean!

Is it possible to change his handle to Kiwi Doodle?

#27 WetHog

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:47 PM

The greatest pleasure I get from offering different perspective on ETNZ's big CHOKE, under the poor leadership of Bean Darker, is exposing all the fuck knuckles that reply with garbage.

It is good to expose all these idiots to the Forum for all to judge.

Carry on :-)

 

For those of you that might not know what an internet troll is here is a perfect example.  Posting simply to get a negative response.  Especially considering the fact that this douche is calling him/herself Yankee Doodle but is posting from a Kiwi IP address.  Kiwi on Kiwi crime.  KKT Indio sock puppet?  :lol:

 

Put the tool on ignore and he/she/it goes away. 

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#28 burbanite

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:56 PM

The greatest pleasure I get from offering different perspective on ETNZ's big CHOKE, under the poor leadership of Bean Darker, is exposing all the fuck knuckles that reply with garbage.

It is good to expose all these idiots to the Forum for all to judge.

Carry on :-)

 

For those of you that might not know what an internet troll is here is a perfect example.  Posting simply to get a negative response.  Especially considering the fact that this douche is calling him/herself Yankee Doodle but is posting from a Kiwi IP address.  Kiwi on Kiwi crime.  KKT Indio sock puppet?  :lol:

 

Put the tool on ignore and he/she/it goes away. 

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

I thought the same until I realized how much fun can be had along the way until he is outed.



#29 sclarke

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:28 PM

 

You heard it here first...
Dean, in order to appease the minority of ANTI Coutts "Dean's our man" brigade (who promote mediocrity) ,will not engage with Russ and try and get him involved with TNZ.
Big mistake!
Why would you not being trying to get Coutts on board as fast as possible regardless of the cost and repercussions.
It would be better to have Coutts working for you than against you.
Even if you paid him to do nothing. That has got to be to your advantage.
But no! The pathetic Kiwi ignorance and unwarranted loyalty, to a bunch of losers, will override smart thinking and winning the cup.
Yip you heard it here first...

FFS yankee you are the most bitter and twisted fucker on this site. Did Deano upset you some where in the past. Get kicked off the team maybe. You hide behind the yankee BS but suspect this is a smokescreen for your home grown vitriol. Just chill a little.

totally chilled dude and enjoying all the vitriol from idiots such as yourself.
Why not debate the topic instead of getting upset at the truth of the message

Dude, I don't get it. So Kiwi's are behind ETNZ. What's wrong with unconditionally supporting your countrymen in a sport which is a pasion in our country? They lost. Yes, but if everyone stopped supporting a team because they lose, there would be no sport. Every team loses some times. They didn't lose because of bad management or bad leadership. Grant did what he could in raising money and getting sponsorship, and allocating the funds in the right areas. Dean did all he could on the water, ETNZ did all they could. New Zealand watched as ETNZ gave that last match everything. After making a meal of the 2 previous starts, We wanted Dean to win the start, he did, we wanted him to lead around the first mark, he did, they just weren't fast enough, and that was it. They had a great campaign, and they sailed well generally through the whole event. There was mistakes, yes, but we can't begrudge them for making mistakes, they represented themselves and New Zealand as best they could. It just wasn't enough. Kiwi's are passionate supporters of our national teams, wether they win or lose, thats just the way it is. Unconditional.

I have never had an issue with the team continuing! It just cannot continue with failed and incompetent management and leadership.

Even Dalton agrees with me. He says it has to change.

Coutts is a guru and a smart team CEO would get him onboard yesterday!

But no! We have an incompetent skipper wanting to continue with days of another big loss! He is a Muppet making a decision so quickly and he is arrogant to think the next leader actually wants him.

He is doing this to, obviously, protect his very tender situation and mind set.

He needs to really analyze his performance and ask himself if he truly is capable of winning.

He is quick to jump in and go again because he cannot go anywhere else. But worse than that is the lack of leadership in the team right now! Is Barker steeping up? No he is weak and not a leader. He need to be led. Which is why there is such a disorganized scenario going on.

Where is the New CEO to review the big choke, where is the independent evaluation of each team members efforts and value, where is the managment when it comes to chasing the best sailors for AC35? and where is the new leader to lead this team forward.

This is a bigger fuck up than losing with a 8:1 lead.

And all we hear is a plea to government to give this bunch of disorganized Muppet more money.

How proffesional is that.

Right now the same muppets that choked and had no response to Oracles changing of gears in San Fran are in charge of the clean up

Also, it cannot be funded by GOVT funding. Imagine if other Govt,s got behind national AC teams!?

It would be a disaster and NZ would lose out.

IF THIS TEAM IS SO GOOD... THEN MONEY WILL COME!...but not with the nutjobs running the mental home.
Money is and will come. Nutjobs?? really?? The only nutjob here is you because you obviously think its a piece of piss to run an Americas Cup winning team. It was mentioned multiple times that Dean Barker and Jimmy Spithill are the two best in the business in the Americas Cup. Russell has said it, Jimmy has said it, Larry has said it, the commentators have said it and Dalts has said it.Infact most of the world has said it and seen it. Its only you that thinks he's weak. And frankly, until you win an Americas Cup, you don't matter. ETNZ WILL continue, it WILL be government backed and Dean WILL be part of it. Yes changes are needed, but the team is strong, its no use firing everyone and starting all over again, that would mean a huge step backwards. Guys like Dean and Dalts are invaluable, they've been there and done that. Dean knows what its like to win the Americas Cup, and what its like to lose the Americas Cup. He knows where mistakes were made so he knows where improvements need to be made. That kind of experience is essential in an AC campaign.

#30 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:58 PM

Don't know exactly where it emanates from but there's something about the ETNZ culture under Dalton that reeks of conspiracy and paranoia, with an ugly and malicious undercurrent reaction as a result. It strikes me as more self-poisonous than benefitting to a winning campaign, almost a defeatist attitude.

JS absolutely voiced and then proved the power of positive thinking, ETNZ could use a healthy, new, injection dose of that medicine

#31 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:33 AM

SC clarke, a couple of thing to consider...

Firstly don,t put words in my mouth. I DO NOT want the team disbanded and have never said that. I have never bagged anyone in the team except Barker and Dalton and Rod Davis (go thru my posts) in fact I really rate Ray Davies, Ashby, and the crew very highly.

I rate ashby and Davies as probably the best helm tactician combo ahead of Spit hill/ainslie. Alhough I rate Ainslie the best of the best.

Also I would like to see the team privately funded. Not Govt funded. This put to much pressure in people and would work against ETNZ if other countries followed suit.

In your mini rant above, you forgot to rate Ainslie. As far as AC skippers goes He is no 1 followed by Spit hill, Ashby, Coutts, then maybe a few other before barker.

As I keep saying. barker can steer as good as anyone. But his leadership, inspirational value etc... is hopeless


I like Daltons tough forthright style but he is flawed. His planning was poor with regard to kipper selection, regatta strategy (change management when thing were going wrong), and post regatta future planning.

Also worth considering, which most people here have not, is the power base going forward to the next regatta.

Because TNZ has not had a post AC plan they are now going to really suffer.

Why?...

Well The Oatley's have the two best sailors available to them if the nationality clause is instigated.

Yip! Spithill, Ashby, and a few others will be top of the hit parade.

Imagine those two together. Sailing against Ainslie for Britain, Coutts for NZ, and a couple of tough American teams... Barker would not rate in that bunch.

So right now I would put money on Aussie kicking ass at the next AC!

Also, Coutts, if ETNZ stuff around like they are ( well mainly Barker is stuffing around. The rest are strangely quite) and do not sign him up, will seriously consider and have no problem setting up a alternative NZ challenge.

Imagine Coutts doing that and sucking the sailors and available sponsorship away from ETNZ. ( maybe now you can see why I say what I do and are so critical of Barker and Dalton failing to execute and plan )

Yip! Coutts could get a terrific team together and maybe even ask the Govt for $40 million too!(now the precedent has been set!)

So know you may see why Govt funding is dumb! Why Dalt's piss poor "future planning_ is dumb" and why Barker is just a not in the same league .

A positive CEO and Skipper would have had a better plan ! Dalton and co don't.

Win or lose It would have had the following in place.

Funding incomes secured to retain key personal post the AC for three months minimum.

A hand over to a pre determined new CEO signed up month ago and announced immediately the AC finished. ( this is were Blake failed too! And why Coutts and co left)

A hit list of key personal targets to go for immediately the AC was over.

Signed up crew contracts that locked key players in for 3 months after AC finished to stopped poaching.

Plus many others...

Right now the Aussies, Brits, Americans, Italians, have planned to, and are currently, recruiting. ETNZ are not and had to beg to the Govt to help them out. how professional is that Mr. Dalton?

Also Dalt's should have had Most of the key player "retention plans" locked in when the original Contracts were signed. So the guys like ashby just rolled over with TNZ.

Especially Designers, tech staff, Davies, Ashby...


running a AC team is not rocket science. Any good CEO could do it. It is just good sold business practices.

After all if Russ ( the guy all you kiwis bag) can do it and Dalton can 90% do it then anybody can!

#32 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:48 AM

Kicking people when they are down is coward yanke doodle.

 

Calling yourself a yank is dumb when your ip is in NZ.

 

What did you do for your country, Kiwiland ? frustrated being a loser and not having a place on the boat ?



#33 aldo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:52 AM

Maybe he's a Yank living in NZ?



#34 burbanite

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:55 AM


Well The Oatley's have the two best sailors available to them if the nationality clause is instigated.

 

So the USA wins the Cup and invokes a rule that precludes them from using their "best sailors? Only in your world.

 

The rest is just you in fairyland, you state your opinion as fact but unless you have intimate knowledge of the inner workings of ETNZ and every other team regarding what they are doing each day then it is all BS.

 

Your use of the word "stuffing" is interesting.



#35 maxmini

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:07 AM

Maybe he's a Yank living in NZ?


No yank on the planet cares as much about DB as this guy does . We really don't give a shit either way and if pushed I think most of us think DB is a stand up guy . This guy is no Yankee .

#36 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:24 AM

Maybe he's a Yank living in NZ?

"Doodle" does not seem to imply that but who cares, he shares SWS's same rock.



#37 dgg

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:32 AM

Yankee Doodle is posting from Kiwiland, folks.  

 

FWIW.

Figured that one a while back. Bitter and twisted is all i can say. Yes the team lost. Yes they made mistakes. No one is arguing different. Could they have done better. Hell yeah in a lot of ways. This is sport there are winners and losers and what sport dosn't need is irrational arguments by people like yankee doodle hiding behind a smokescreen. If yankee has something that can create an honest debate let him say it. Character assassination is not honest debate. Yes Deano has lost in the past. Who hasnt. Jimmy lost 8 then fought back. Dont see wankee having a go there. The guy was one race from a complete OR fuckup yet he fought back. The key thing is he kept going. DB has to pick up the pieces and make decisions about his future. He has expressed interest in carrying on as skipper but maybe once he has had a chance to think about the regatta he may make a different decision. He is still an important part of the team and needs to be included. So Yankee a message for you. People dont go out in their everyday lives to just purposely lose or fuckup. It happens in life in business and in sport. So please go away.



#38 dgg

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:40 AM

SC clarke, a couple of thing to consider...

Firstly don,t put words in my mouth. I DO NOT want the team disbanded and have never said that. I have never bagged anyone in the team except Barker and Dalton and Rod Davis (go thru my posts) in fact I really rate Ray Davies, Ashby, and the crew very highly.

I rate ashby and Davies as probably the best helm tactician combo ahead of Spit hill/ainslie. Alhough I rate Ainslie the best of the best.

Also I would like to see the team privately funded. Not Govt funded. This put to much pressure in people and would work against ETNZ if other countries followed suit.

In your mini rant above, you forgot to rate Ainslie. As far as AC skippers goes He is no 1 followed by Spit hill, Ashby, Coutts, then maybe a few other before barker.

As I keep saying. barker can steer as good as anyone. But his leadership, inspirational value etc... is hopeless


I like Daltons tough forthright style but he is flawed. His planning was poor with regard to kipper selection, regatta strategy (change management when thing were going wrong), and post regatta future planning.

Also worth considering, which most people here have not, is the power base going forward to the next regatta.

Because TNZ has not had a post AC plan they are now going to really suffer.

Why?...

Well The Oatley's have the two best sailors available to them if the nationality clause is instigated.

Yip! Spithill, Ashby, and a few others will be top of the hit parade.

Imagine those two together. Sailing against Ainslie for Britain, Coutts for NZ, and a couple of tough American teams... Barker would not rate in that bunch.

So right now I would put money on Aussie kicking ass at the next AC!

Also, Coutts, if ETNZ stuff around like they are ( well mainly Barker is stuffing around. The rest are strangely quite) and do not sign him up, will seriously consider and have no problem setting up a alternative NZ challenge.

Imagine Coutts doing that and sucking the sailors and available sponsorship away from ETNZ. ( maybe now you can see why I say what I do and are so critical of Barker and Dalton failing to execute and plan )

Yip! Coutts could get a terrific team together and maybe even ask the Govt for $40 million too!(now the precedent has been set!)

So know you may see why Govt funding is dumb! Why Dalt's piss poor "future planning_ is dumb" and why Barker is just a not in the same league .

A positive CEO and Skipper would have had a better plan ! Dalton and co don't.

Win or lose It would have had the following in place.

Funding incomes secured to retain key personal post the AC for three months minimum.

A hand over to a pre determined new CEO signed up month ago and announced immediately the AC finished. ( this is were Blake failed too! And why Coutts and co left)

A hit list of key personal targets to go for immediately the AC was over.

Signed up crew contracts that locked key players in for 3 months after AC finished to stopped poaching.

Plus many others...

Right now the Aussies, Brits, Americans, Italians, have planned to, and are currently, recruiting. ETNZ are not and had to beg to the Govt to help them out. how professional is that Mr. Dalton?

Also Dalt's should have had Most of the key player "retention plans" locked in when the original Contracts were signed. So the guys like ashby just rolled over with TNZ.

Especially Designers, tech staff, Davies, Ashby...


running a AC team is not rocket science. Any good CEO could do it. It is just good sold business practices.

After all if Russ ( the guy all you kiwis bag) can do it and Dalton can 90% do it then anybody can!

Finally coming up with some good points without shooting off at everyone you don't like. You say Russ is the "guy all you kiwis bag"  I dont think the word "all" is correct. Carry on and put some more rational thought into your discussion and people may actually listen to you. 



#39 sclarke

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:10 AM

SC clarke, a couple of thing to consider...

Firstly don,t put words in my mouth. I DO NOT want the team disbanded and have never said that. I have never bagged anyone in the team except Barker and Dalton and Rod Davis (go thru my posts) in fact I really rate Ray Davies, Ashby, and the crew very highly.

I rate ashby and Davies as probably the best helm tactician combo ahead of Spit hill/ainslie. Alhough I rate Ainslie the best of the best.

Also I would like to see the team privately funded. Not Govt funded. This put to much pressure in people and would work against ETNZ if other countries followed suit.

In your mini rant above, you forgot to rate Ainslie. As far as AC skippers goes He is no 1 followed by Spit hill, Ashby, Coutts, then maybe a few other before barker.

As I keep saying. barker can steer as good as anyone. But his leadership, inspirational value etc... is hopeless


I like Daltons tough forthright style but he is flawed. His planning was poor with regard to kipper selection, regatta strategy (change management when thing were going wrong), and post regatta future planning.

Also worth considering, which most people here have not, is the power base going forward to the next regatta.

Because TNZ has not had a post AC plan they are now going to really suffer.

Why?...

Well The Oatley's have the two best sailors available to them if the nationality clause is instigated.

Yip! Spithill, Ashby, and a few others will be top of the hit parade.

Imagine those two together. Sailing against Ainslie for Britain, Coutts for NZ, and a couple of tough American teams... Barker would not rate in that bunch.

So right now I would put money on Aussie kicking ass at the next AC!

Also, Coutts, if ETNZ stuff around like they are ( well mainly Barker is stuffing around. The rest are strangely quite) and do not sign him up, will seriously consider and have no problem setting up a alternative NZ challenge.

Imagine Coutts doing that and sucking the sailors and available sponsorship away from ETNZ. ( maybe now you can see why I say what I do and are so critical of Barker and Dalton failing to execute and plan )

Yip! Coutts could get a terrific team together and maybe even ask the Govt for $40 million too!(now the precedent has been set!)

So know you may see why Govt funding is dumb! Why Dalt's piss poor "future planning_ is dumb" and why Barker is just a not in the same league .

A positive CEO and Skipper would have had a better plan ! Dalton and co don't.

Win or lose It would have had the following in place.

Funding incomes secured to retain key personal post the AC for three months minimum.

A hand over to a pre determined new CEO signed up month ago and announced immediately the AC finished. ( this is were Blake failed too! And why Coutts and co left)

A hit list of key personal targets to go for immediately the AC was over.

Signed up crew contracts that locked key players in for 3 months after AC finished to stopped poaching.

Plus many others...

Right now the Aussies, Brits, Americans, Italians, have planned to, and are currently, recruiting. ETNZ are not and had to beg to the Govt to help them out. how professional is that Mr. Dalton?

Also Dalt's should have had Most of the key player "retention plans" locked in when the original Contracts were signed. So the guys like ashby just rolled over with TNZ.

Especially Designers, tech staff, Davies, Ashby...


running a AC team is not rocket science. Any good CEO could do it. It is just good sold business practices.

After all if Russ ( the guy all you kiwis bag) can do it and Dalton can 90% do it then anybody can!

Finally coming up with some good points without shooting off at everyone you don't like. You say Russ is the "guy all you kiwis bag"  I dont think the word "all" is correct. Carry on and put some more rational thought into your discussion and people may actually listen to you. 

There is absolutely nothing rational about what "Yankee Doodle" has said...nothing whatsoever. First of all, you talk like raising 100 million dollars happens just like that. Get with the real world. The only reason Coutts has had free reign to buy the people he has is he's had billionaire backers with a bottomless wallet. There are just not enough billionaires in New Zealand. Infact We don't even have a billionaire in the top 10 richest men in the world, now I don't know about you but I wouldn't be willing to spend 100 million dollars on a campaign whos goal is to beat a team backed by the 5th richest man on the planet, therefor the only way to enter the Americas Cup was with government and sponsor support.

 

Second of all, Grant Dalton publicly stated it, everything hinged on ETNZ winning the Cup, there was no tomorrow if they didn't win. AT THAT TIME the country was 50/50 on wether the government should've backed ETNZ. And it looked as though there was not going to be any public support for any future campaigns if they didn't win. No one could have predicted what happened, how the country would do such a huge turnaround in terms of public support. The country is now solidly, unreservedly behind Team New Zealand in whatever form it may become. Dean was a huge part of that. He was the leader over there, he was the man who had the weight of a country on his shoulders, and he stayed focused the whole way. And when they lost, everyone felt the same way he did, and we realised something...this guy has to be absolutely devastated, he did NZ proud for months and now it was time to return the favour. There was no way we could let this guy come home in shame. So we got behind him in particular because of the genuine pain he publicly felt and endured. Thats why Dean is loved in NZ.

 

Third, it goes without saying that Ben, Jimmy and Tom Slingsby are some of the best in the world, there's no argueing that point, so YES those guys are great sailors and deserve everything they've achieved.

 

The reason why Dalts didn't have an ongoing funding plan was because there WAS NO ongoing plan (as I said) They HAD TO win the Cup or that was it, ETNZ was going to end with that loss. They've just been fortunate that the public has gotten behind them as we have, which is why they were so surprised with the welcome home they received. It wasn't bad planning at all, it was the fact that Dalts had poured everything they had behind this campaign, all the money, all the people, all the time went into winning the Cup, so you can imagine by not winning it would leave you in a situation where 12 months ago if you didn't win it was over, to now people wanting them to continue and have another crack at it, and having to FIND the funding to do that.

 

The campaign itself was great, it was structured, it was well managed (according to the budget they had) and it was executed near perfectly, but like Dalts said, if they've got the faster boat they'll win, and thats what happened. Dalts couldn't have done any more with the campaign they had.

 

Lastly, you say you'd like to see ETNZ privately funded, well, the trouble with that is, you have to have a private backer that wants to do that. Theres just not that many billionaires in New Zealand. New Zealand has a clean, green hardworking image and reputation, and niether ETNZ, the public, or the government is willing to sacrifive that reputation, which is why ETNZ is geared the way it is, around the Kiwi culture and reputation. That will never change. Team NZ always has been geared towards New Zealnd as a country. It will never be a boat representing NZ full of foreigners like oracle was. It just isnt the way New Zealand is.



#40 jc172528

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:25 AM

So Doodle boy achieving what he set out to do.............

 

stirring-the-pot.jpg

 

 

Just let him die in silence gentlemen!  



#41 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:47 AM



SC clarke, a couple of thing to consider...
Firstly don,t put words in my mouth. I DO NOT want the team disbanded and have never said that. I have never bagged anyone in the team except Barker and Dalton and Rod Davis (go thru my posts) in fact I really rate Ray Davies, Ashby, and the crew very highly.
I rate ashby and Davies as probably the best helm tactician combo ahead of Spit hill/ainslie. Alhough I rate Ainslie the best of the best.
Also I would like to see the team privately funded. Not Govt funded. This put to much pressure in people and would work against ETNZ if other countries followed suit.
In your mini rant above, you forgot to rate Ainslie. As far as AC skippers goes He is no 1 followed by Spit hill, Ashby, Coutts, then maybe a few other before barker.
As I keep saying. barker can steer as good as anyone. But his leadership, inspirational value etc... is hopeless
I like Daltons tough forthright style but he is flawed. His planning was poor with regard to kipper selection, regatta strategy (change management when thing were going wrong), and post regatta future planning.
Also worth considering, which most people here have not, is the power base going forward to the next regatta.
Because TNZ has not had a post AC plan they are now going to really suffer.
Why?...
Well The Oatley's have the two best sailors available to them if the nationality clause is instigated.
Yip! Spithill, Ashby, and a few others will be top of the hit parade.
Imagine those two together. Sailing against Ainslie for Britain, Coutts for NZ, and a couple of tough American teams... Barker would not rate in that bunch.
So right now I would put money on Aussie kicking ass at the next AC!
Also, Coutts, if ETNZ stuff around like they are ( well mainly Barker is stuffing around. The rest are strangely quite) and do not sign him up, will seriously consider and have no problem setting up a alternative NZ challenge.
Imagine Coutts doing that and sucking the sailors and available sponsorship away from ETNZ. ( maybe now you can see why I say what I do and are so critical of Barker and Dalton failing to execute and plan )
Yip! Coutts could get a terrific team together and maybe even ask the Govt for $40 million too!(now the precedent has been set!)
So know you may see why Govt funding is dumb! Why Dalt's piss poor "future planning_ is dumb" and why Barker is just a not in the same league .
A positive CEO and Skipper would have had a better plan ! Dalton and co don't.
Win or lose It would have had the following in place.
Funding incomes secured to retain key personal post the AC for three months minimum.
A hand over to a pre determined new CEO signed up month ago and announced immediately the AC finished. ( this is were Blake failed too! And why Coutts and co left)
A hit list of key personal targets to go for immediately the AC was over.
Signed up crew contracts that locked key players in for 3 months after AC finished to stopped poaching.
Plus many others...
Right now the Aussies, Brits, Americans, Italians, have planned to, and are currently, recruiting. ETNZ are not and had to beg to the Govt to help them out. how professional is that Mr. Dalton?
Also Dalt's should have had Most of the key player "retention plans" locked in when the original Contracts were signed. So the guys like ashby just rolled over with TNZ.
Especially Designers, tech staff, Davies, Ashby...
running a AC team is not rocket science. Any good CEO could do it. It is just good sold business practices.
After all if Russ ( the guy all you kiwis bag) can do it and Dalton can 90% do it then anybody can!

Finally coming up with some good points without shooting off at everyone you don't like. You say Russ is the "guy all you kiwis bag"  I dont think the word "all" is correct. Carry on and put some more rational thought into your discussion and people may actually listen to you. 
There is absolutely nothing rational about what "Yankee Doodle" has said...nothing whatsoever. First of all, you talk like raising 100 million dollars happens just like that. Get with the real world. The only reason Coutts has had free reign to buy the people he has is he's had billionaire backers with a bottomless wallet. There are just not enough billionaires in New Zealand. Infact We don't even have a billionaire in the top 10 richest men in the world, now I don't know about you but I wouldn't be willing to spend 100 million dollars on a campaign whos goal is to beat a team backed by the 5th richest man on the planet, therefor the only way to enter the Americas Cup was with government and sponsor support.
 
Second of all, Grant Dalton publicly stated it, everything hinged on ETNZ winning the Cup, there was no tomorrow if they didn't win. AT THAT TIME the country was 50/50 on wether the government should've backed ETNZ. And it looked as though there was not going to be any public support for any future campaigns if they didn't win. No one could have predicted what happened, how the country would do such a huge turnaround in terms of public support. The country is now solidly, unreservedly behind Team New Zealand in whatever form it may become. Dean was a huge part of that. He was the leader over there, he was the man who had the weight of a country on his shoulders, and he stayed focused the whole way. And when they lost, everyone felt the same way he did, and we realised something...this guy has to be absolutely devastated, he did NZ proud for months and now it was time to return the favour. There was no way we could let this guy come home in shame. So we got behind him in particular because of the genuine pain he publicly felt and endured. Thats why Dean is loved in NZ.
 
Third, it goes without saying that Ben, Jimmy and Tom Slingsby are some of the best in the world, there's no argueing that point, so YES those guys are great sailors and deserve everything they've achieved.
 
The reason why Dalts didn't have an ongoing funding plan was because there WAS NO ongoing plan (as I said) They HAD TO win the Cup or that was it, ETNZ was going to end with that loss. They've just been fortunate that the public has gotten behind them as we have, which is why they were so surprised with the welcome home they received. It wasn't bad planning at all, it was the fact that Dalts had poured everything they had behind this campaign, all the money, all the people, all the time went into winning the Cup, so you can imagine by not winning it would leave you in a situation where 12 months ago if you didn't win it was over, to now people wanting them to continue and have another crack at it, and having to FIND the funding to do that.
 
The campaign itself was great, it was structured, it was well managed (according to the budget they had) and it was executed near perfectly, but like Dalts said, if they've got the faster boat they'll win, and thats what happened. Dalts couldn't have done any more with the campaign they had.
 
Lastly, you say you'd like to see ETNZ privately funded, well, the trouble with that is, you have to have a private backer that wants to do that. Theres just not that many billionaires in New Zealand. New Zealand has a clean, green hardworking image and reputation, and niether ETNZ, the public, or the government is willing to sacrifive that reputation, which is why ETNZ is geared the way it is, around the Kiwi culture and reputation. That will never change. Team NZ always has been geared towards New Zealnd as a country. It will never be a boat representing NZ full of foreigners like oracle was. It just isnt the way New Zealand is.
Sorry AC Clarke but I could not read past you first "absolute rubbish" sentence.

You, my friend are way of the mark and seeing this debate through ETNZ/kiwi tinted glasses and that first paragraph proves it.

Firstly you state Coutts ability to GET billionaires to back his attempts.

Well! Is that not what He was trying to do for TNZ with Berterelli?... oh yes that's right it was! Yes he realized there were not many billionaires in NZ in 2001 and went to the world market!!

Also he was head hunted to sailed for the billionaires because, unlike TNZ/Blake/kiwis, they recognized his ability and talent... plus what he would bring with him.

FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts.

I did not read the rest of you post as I could not get beyond the stupidity and defeatist attitude/mindset of you first paragraph.

But hey. At least you put up a good argument and I admire you for that!... compared to the other here who just come back with comment that reflect their IQ

#42 coaster1

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:58 AM

So Doodle boy achieving what he set out to do.............

 

stirring-the-pot.jpg

 

 

Just let him die in silence gentlemen!  

 

And this is all you can produce in terms of a response.

 

Typical SA sheep fucker, insults are your only strong hand.

 

Kiwi sailors deserve not better fans, but fans period.



#43 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:58 AM

So Doodle boy achieving what he set out to do.............
 
stirring-the-pot.jpg
 
 
Just let him die in silence gentlemen!  


What value do you offer the forum and this thread other than showing us pictures of your son mixing food for your dinner.

You my friend are a true troll.

#44 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:01 AM

So Doodle boy achieving what he set out to do.............
 
stirring-the-pot.jpg
 
 
Just let him die in silence gentlemen!  

 
And this is all you can produce in terms of a response.
 
Typical SA sheep fucker, insults are your only strong hand.
 
Kiwi sailors deserve not better fans, but fans period.

Snap! But hey he is not a sheep fucker! ... because the sheep actually rejected him :-)

#45 sclarke

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:14 PM

 

 

SC clarke, a couple of thing to consider...
Firstly don,t put words in my mouth. I DO NOT want the team disbanded and have never said that. I have never bagged anyone in the team except Barker and Dalton and Rod Davis (go thru my posts) in fact I really rate Ray Davies, Ashby, and the crew very highly.
I rate ashby and Davies as probably the best helm tactician combo ahead of Spit hill/ainslie. Alhough I rate Ainslie the best of the best.
Also I would like to see the team privately funded. Not Govt funded. This put to much pressure in people and would work against ETNZ if other countries followed suit.
In your mini rant above, you forgot to rate Ainslie. As far as AC skippers goes He is no 1 followed by Spit hill, Ashby, Coutts, then maybe a few other before barker.
As I keep saying. barker can steer as good as anyone. But his leadership, inspirational value etc... is hopeless
I like Daltons tough forthright style but he is flawed. His planning was poor with regard to kipper selection, regatta strategy (change management when thing were going wrong), and post regatta future planning.
Also worth considering, which most people here have not, is the power base going forward to the next regatta.
Because TNZ has not had a post AC plan they are now going to really suffer.
Why?...
Well The Oatley's have the two best sailors available to them if the nationality clause is instigated.
Yip! Spithill, Ashby, and a few others will be top of the hit parade.
Imagine those two together. Sailing against Ainslie for Britain, Coutts for NZ, and a couple of tough American teams... Barker would not rate in that bunch.
So right now I would put money on Aussie kicking ass at the next AC!
Also, Coutts, if ETNZ stuff around like they are ( well mainly Barker is stuffing around. The rest are strangely quite) and do not sign him up, will seriously consider and have no problem setting up a alternative NZ challenge.
Imagine Coutts doing that and sucking the sailors and available sponsorship away from ETNZ. ( maybe now you can see why I say what I do and are so critical of Barker and Dalton failing to execute and plan )
Yip! Coutts could get a terrific team together and maybe even ask the Govt for $40 million too!(now the precedent has been set!)
So know you may see why Govt funding is dumb! Why Dalt's piss poor "future planning_ is dumb" and why Barker is just a not in the same league .
A positive CEO and Skipper would have had a better plan ! Dalton and co don't.
Win or lose It would have had the following in place.
Funding incomes secured to retain key personal post the AC for three months minimum.
A hand over to a pre determined new CEO signed up month ago and announced immediately the AC finished. ( this is were Blake failed too! And why Coutts and co left)
A hit list of key personal targets to go for immediately the AC was over.
Signed up crew contracts that locked key players in for 3 months after AC finished to stopped poaching.
Plus many others...
Right now the Aussies, Brits, Americans, Italians, have planned to, and are currently, recruiting. ETNZ are not and had to beg to the Govt to help them out. how professional is that Mr. Dalton?
Also Dalt's should have had Most of the key player "retention plans" locked in when the original Contracts were signed. So the guys like ashby just rolled over with TNZ.
Especially Designers, tech staff, Davies, Ashby...
running a AC team is not rocket science. Any good CEO could do it. It is just good sold business practices.
After all if Russ ( the guy all you kiwis bag) can do it and Dalton can 90% do it then anybody can!

Finally coming up with some good points without shooting off at everyone you don't like. You say Russ is the "guy all you kiwis bag"  I dont think the word "all" is correct. Carry on and put some more rational thought into your discussion and people may actually listen to you.

 

There is absolutely nothing rational about what "Yankee Doodle" has said...nothing whatsoever. First of all, you talk like raising 100 million dollars happens just like that. Get with the real world. The only reason Coutts has had free reign to buy the people he has is he's had billionaire backers with a bottomless wallet. There are just not enough billionaires in New Zealand. Infact We don't even have a billionaire in the top 10 richest men in the world, now I don't know about you but I wouldn't be willing to spend 100 million dollars on a campaign whos goal is to beat a team backed by the 5th richest man on the planet, therefor the only way to enter the Americas Cup was with government and sponsor support.
 
Second of all, Grant Dalton publicly stated it, everything hinged on ETNZ winning the Cup, there was no tomorrow if they didn't win. AT THAT TIME the country was 50/50 on wether the government should've backed ETNZ. And it looked as though there was not going to be any public support for any future campaigns if they didn't win. No one could have predicted what happened, how the country would do such a huge turnaround in terms of public support. The country is now solidly, unreservedly behind Team New Zealand in whatever form it may become. Dean was a huge part of that. He was the leader over there, he was the man who had the weight of a country on his shoulders, and he stayed focused the whole way. And when they lost, everyone felt the same way he did, and we realised something...this guy has to be absolutely devastated, he did NZ proud for months and now it was time to return the favour. There was no way we could let this guy come home in shame. So we got behind him in particular because of the genuine pain he publicly felt and endured. Thats why Dean is loved in NZ.
 
Third, it goes without saying that Ben, Jimmy and Tom Slingsby are some of the best in the world, there's no argueing that point, so YES those guys are great sailors and deserve everything they've achieved.
 
The reason why Dalts didn't have an ongoing funding plan was because there WAS NO ongoing plan (as I said) They HAD TO win the Cup or that was it, ETNZ was going to end with that loss. They've just been fortunate that the public has gotten behind them as we have, which is why they were so surprised with the welcome home they received. It wasn't bad planning at all, it was the fact that Dalts had poured everything they had behind this campaign, all the money, all the people, all the time went into winning the Cup, so you can imagine by not winning it would leave you in a situation where 12 months ago if you didn't win it was over, to now people wanting them to continue and have another crack at it, and having to FIND the funding to do that.
 
The campaign itself was great, it was structured, it was well managed (according to the budget they had) and it was executed near perfectly, but like Dalts said, if they've got the faster boat they'll win, and thats what happened. Dalts couldn't have done any more with the campaign they had.
 
Lastly, you say you'd like to see ETNZ privately funded, well, the trouble with that is, you have to have a private backer that wants to do that. Theres just not that many billionaires in New Zealand. New Zealand has a clean, green hardworking image and reputation, and niether ETNZ, the public, or the government is willing to sacrifive that reputation, which is why ETNZ is geared the way it is, around the Kiwi culture and reputation. That will never change. Team NZ always has been geared towards New Zealnd as a country. It will never be a boat representing NZ full of foreigners like oracle was. It just isnt the way New Zealand is.

 

Sorry AC Clarke but I could not read past you first "absolute rubbish" sentence.

You, my friend are way of the mark and seeing this debate through ETNZ/kiwi tinted glasses and that first paragraph proves it.

Firstly you state Coutts ability to GET billionaires to back his attempts.

Well! Is that not what He was trying to do for TNZ with Berterelli?... oh yes that's right it was! Yes he realized there were not many billionaires in NZ in 2001 and went to the world market!!

Also he was head hunted to sailed for the billionaires because, unlike TNZ/Blake/kiwis, they recognized his ability and talent... plus what he would bring with him.

FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts.

I did not read the rest of you post as I could not get beyond the stupidity and defeatist attitude/mindset of you first paragraph.

But hey. At least you put up a good argument and I admire you for that!... compared to the other here who just come back with comment that reflect their IQ

You, my friend are way of the mark and seeing this debate through ETNZ/kiwi tinted glasses and that first paragraph proves it.

 

Way off the mark?? I think you should look at what you post...its absolute rubbish.

Firstly you state Coutts ability to GET billionaires to back his attempts.

 

Ill admit mistakes were made in 2003. Management and leadership was lacking yes, but Team NZ had more than enough money back then to stage another successful defence. I don't pretend to know the in's and out's of what went on back then but instead of seeing the campaign through, when he didn't get his way, he took his million dollar ball and went home.

 

Well! Is that not what He was trying to do for TNZ with Berterelli?... oh yes that's right it was! Yes he realized there were not many billionaires in NZ in 2001 and went to the world market!!

 

And that's fine. He went off to the world market, found Ernesto, won the cup, tried to muscle his plan in for the defence, didn't get his way and got fired. 

So he went to the world market again (now a hired gun) found Larry who at the time, lets face it, was gettin his a$$ handed to him and needed a big name player to turn his luck around.


Also he was head hunted to sailed for the billionaires because, unlike TNZ/Blake/kiwis, they recognized his ability and talent... plus what he would bring with him.
 

NZ recognised his talent, we always have, just not his ethics or his values. Team New Zealand has always geared its campaigns towards using New Zealand sailors, New Zealand industry and basing it around the New Zealand culture, because its not only an Americas Cup Team, its an advertisement for the country, a chance for New Zealand to show what it has and can do.

For Oracle, its an Americas Cup team only, because really, The majority of America couldn't care less for Oracle or the Americas Cup, or to a degree, sailing in general.


FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

 

"Factoid" so you have inside knowledge on exactly how much Oracle and ETNZ spent on their campaigns?? I assume you did as you know for a "Fact" that Oracle spent 10% more than ETNZ. Cmon mate, no one knows how much each team spent except themselves, and Im sure they didn't tell you.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

 

Im not debating that, but every country has its own billionaires, but it doesn't mean they all want to enter the Americas Cup.

You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

 

Rugby League is his thing. The NZ Warriors, not Team New Zealand.


Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

 

So you have inside knowledge of funds Grant Dalton had access to?? Jees you'd be the most knowledgeable sailing fan in the world today wouldn't ya?? Bullshit.

You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

 

Really?? You not only know how much they spent, but now you know where they spent it and what they spent it on?? You really are full of shit.


And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

 

You know, I know, everyone knows Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. aka Larry Ellison. Yes they had sponsors, but it doesn't take much to figure out that before you get sponsorship, you need to have a primary source of funding, which in Oracle's case was Larry Ellison, and in ETNZ's case was the government and Matteo De Nora.

 

ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.
 

First and fore most, the problem is absolutely money. Without a primary source of funding there is no team, no base and therfor no sponsors. Before you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them an established team with a clear objective and an ability to reach that objective. That means you have to have access to money, and a lot of it. You can't just go to a sponsor and say. "I want you to sponsor our AC team, but we have no money and no team, but if you agree to sponsor us we can start putting stuff together" You'll get told to not let the door hit you on the way out.

 

And most people around the world see Dean Barker as a classy guy with a great track record who is a proud Kiwi and who represented his country with pride and dignity, its only you that thinks he's a failure, and like I said, you don't matter.


A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts.
 

No facts at all in your speel, just fiction, so im not worried


I did not read the rest of you post as I could not get beyond the stupidity and defeatist attitude/mindset of you first paragraph.

But hey. At least you put up a good argument and I admire you for that!... compared to the other here who just come back with comment that reflect their IQ

 

There is no defeatist attitude, we lost, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, so accept it. New Zealand just can see the positives that came out of the loss. We were represented on the world stage, it reflected well on New Zealand as a whole and therefor we all benefitted from the great show ETNZ put on.

 

By the way, facts are actual documented evidence, proof that something actually happened. The're not made up rubbish that you think is right. You need to back those facts up if you're gonna use them. Until you show documented proof of the facts you speak of, tehy are NOT Facts. 

 



#46 abroad

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:44 PM

Yankee doodle's next dumb move: create yet another inflammatory thread criticizing ETNZ's decisions that have not even been made yet.



#47 hobsonlea

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:16 PM

"Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. Larry Ellison" 

 

 Larry sponsored OTUSA and Core Builders from his own monies, the Oracle branding was not paid for by Oracle Corp - it was effectively gifted to Oracle Corp. 

(and they perhaps were cringing more than most about cheating.. )

It was an LJE decision to get into and pay for his sailing interests.

Oracle I understand chooses to use the event for corporate marketing   



#48 sclarke

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:57 PM

"Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. Larry Ellison" 

 

 Larry sponsored OTUSA and Core Builders from his own monies, the Oracle branding was not paid for by Oracle Corp - it was effectively gifted to Oracle Corp. 

(and they perhaps were cringing more than most about cheating.. )

It was an LJE decision to get into and pay for his sailing interests.

Oracle I understand chooses to use the event for corporate marketing   

I'd probably say the same, BUT Oracle is a global company with a business structure of shareholdes and investors. I don't know how they did it (Nor do I care) but I would assume you can't just use a company registered trademark brand and name without approval from some sort of board of directors. Otherwise any billionaire could go branding their boat with any large company's name. Larry owns Oracle, but he is not the only shareholder in Oracle corp. Oracle would have had to have paid something to have their brand name displayed on the boat.



#49 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

ACC - nice to see how you,cherry pick certain comments and spin you rhetoric to give more impact.

I have replied in between each paragraph...



FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

"Factoid" so you have inside knowledge on exactly how much Oracle and ETNZ spent on their campaigns?? I assume you did as you know for a "Fact" that Oracle spent 10% more than ETNZ. Cmon mate, no one knows how much each team spent except themselves, and Im sure they didn't tell you.

Yes I/we have information from Russ's own mouth. And I don not belive he is a liar. He stated it live on air on RNZ, (seem previous post re details!). Also the comparisons of obvious spend between teams backs this up. Remember ETNZ had two boats that were more expensive than larry's and Cores Mr Smyth verified build cost. Dalton also told us 60% of the or spend was misdirected to wages. Plus many other obvious things.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

Im not debating that, but every country has its own billionaires, but it doesn't mean they all want to enter the Americas Cup.


Yes you were debating that!


You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Rugby League is his thing. The NZ Warriors, not Team New Zealand.

No rugby league is one of his many "things"... because rugby league approached him!



Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

So you have inside knowledge of funds Grant Dalton had access to?? Jees you'd be the most knowledgeable sailing fan in the world today wouldn't ya?? Bullshit.

The only bullshit here is you! By this I mean he had the same amount of access to all the world billionaires/business,s a anyone. He just had to call on more of them. But I suspect his brash nature would have made that hard.


You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

Really?? You not only know how much they spent, but now you know where they spent it and what they spent it on?? You really are full of shit.

Now now less of the emotional expletifs there ACC. Yes I do know and so do mist people. Dalton has told us his spend! Coutts has too! They have also told us where they spent it. EG boats were 10 million....

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

You know, I know, everyone knows Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. aka Larry Ellison. Yes they had sponsors, but it doesn't take much to figure out that before you get sponsorship, you need to have a primary source of funding, which in Oracle's case was Larry Ellison, and in ETNZ's case was the government and Matteo De Nora.

Fuck you are really dumb.! eTNZ's main founder was Emerates ($90 million) the remaining founders were Toyota, Skyy, Nesspesso, camper NZ govt. justice emerites and NZG alone were $125 million... do the numbers! They were way over $150 million


ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

First and fore most, the problem is absolutely money. Without a primary source of funding there is no team, no base and therfor no sponsors. Before you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them an established team with a clear objective and an ability to reach that objective. That means you have to have access to money, and a lot of it. You can't just go to a sponsor and say. "I want you to sponsor our AC team, but we have no money and no team, but if you agree to sponsor us we can start putting stuff together" You'll get told to not let the door hit you on the way out.

What crap. Let's take your "Etna has less funds" argument...


If money is the difference and ETNZ nearly won with WAY LESS (but it was the management and skipper and planning that choked in my mind... not money) as all you kiwis keep telling us.

Then money has NOTHING to DO with IT!... got it now!

It not money it is where you spent what you have.

Examples are Australia 2 beating Liberty. Bond spent less but spent it well!!

tNZ winning for the first time!!! Blake spent less and spent it well.

Where did they spend it?... on the boat/techo not the people.

Dalton spent poorly and sat on his supposed advantage.

eTNZs problem was exposing there foiling option to soon. Dalton fucked up and Oracle pounced... no money involved in that stupidity.





And most people around the world see Dean Barker as a classy guy with a great track record who is a proud Kiwi and who represented his country with pride and dignity, its only you that thinks he's a failure, and like I said, you don't matter.

Classy guy... but not a winning sailor!... so for you Darker should look good... losing!


As for the proud rhetoric!... give us a break. Every kiwi is proud. Or at least they say they are.

barker is a mirage! He has the classy image but looks can be decieving. There is no substance. Jimmy is all Substance and does not trade on looks, money, and "look at poor sorry me" attitude.



A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts


There is no defeatist attitude, we lost, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, so accept it. New Zealand just can see the positives that came out of the loss. We were represented on the world stage, it reflected well on New Zealand as a whole and therefor we all benefitted from the great show ETNZ put on.

No! It was not "WE" that lost but a private bunch of guys who where not selected by NZ, in a private team sailing under a cloud of deciept calling d ETNZ, who were paid " over the top" to make poor decisions. This lost the cup. Not one New zealander, out side of the team was involved! ( albeit your Govt gave you're taxes to them without the blessing of the majority)



By the way, facts are actual documented evidence, proof that something actually happened. The're not made up rubbish that you think is right. You need to back those facts up if you're gonna use them. Until you show documented proof of the facts you speak of, tehy are NOT Facts.


Ha ha ... so where are you're fact that dispute my facts.

#50 jonsailor

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:24 PM

Yankee Doodle is posting from Kiwiland, folks.  

 

FWIW.

 

hahahahaha....now it all makes sense. He bet is fucking house and everything he owned on the race at 8-1 and fucking lost the lot. No wonder he is a kiwi camp hater.....fucking good job!!!!



#51 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:28 PM

"Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. Larry Ellison" 
 
 Larry sponsored OTUSA and Core Builders from his own monies, the Oracle branding was not paid for by Oracle Corp - it was effectively gifted to Oracle Corp. 
(and they perhaps were cringing more than most about cheating.. )
It was an LJE decision to get into and pay for his sailing interests.
Oracle I understand chooses to use the event for corporate marketing   

I'd probably say the same, BUT Oracle is a global company with a business structure of shareholdes and investors. I don't know how they did it (Nor do I care) but I would assume you can't just use a company registered trademark brand and name without approval from some sort of board of directors. Otherwise any billionaire could go branding their boat with any large company's name. Larry owns Oracle, but he is not the only shareholder in Oracle corp. Oracle would have had to have paid something to have their brand name displayed on the boat.

We know you don't care.

Tell me. How much money did Tag , yanmar, Rolex, and all the other sponsors/funding people give to Oracle.

I have heard that they put in well over half the money.

#52 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:30 PM

Yankee Doodle is posting from Kiwiland, folks.  
 
FWIW.

 
hahahahaha....now it all makes sense. He bet is fucking house and everything he owned on the race at 8-1 and fucking lost the lot. No wonder he is a kiwi camp hater.....fucking good job!!!!

Hello?!.. You can post from anywhere thru a Kiwi server and or IP. Via many countries
:-)

#53 sclarke

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:42 PM

ACC - nice to see how you,cherry pick certain comments and spin you rhetoric to give more impact.

I have replied in between each paragraph...



FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

"Factoid" so you have inside knowledge on exactly how much Oracle and ETNZ spent on their campaigns?? I assume you did as you know for a "Fact" that Oracle spent 10% more than ETNZ. Cmon mate, no one knows how much each team spent except themselves, and Im sure they didn't tell you.

Yes I/we have information from Russ's own mouth. And I don not belive he is a liar. He stated it live on air on RNZ, (seem previous post re details!). Also the comparisons of obvious spend between teams backs this up. Remember ETNZ had two boats that were more expensive than larry's and Cores Mr Smyth verified build cost. Dalton also told us 60% of the or spend was misdirected to wages. Plus many other obvious things.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

Im not debating that, but every country has its own billionaires, but it doesn't mean they all want to enter the Americas Cup.


Yes you were debating that!


You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Rugby League is his thing. The NZ Warriors, not Team New Zealand.

No rugby league is one of his many "things"... because rugby league approached him!



Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

So you have inside knowledge of funds Grant Dalton had access to?? Jees you'd be the most knowledgeable sailing fan in the world today wouldn't ya?? Bullshit.

The only bullshit here is you! By this I mean he had the same amount of access to all the world billionaires/business,s a anyone. He just had to call on more of them. But I suspect his brash nature would have made that hard.


You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

Really?? You not only know how much they spent, but now you know where they spent it and what they spent it on?? You really are full of shit.

Now now less of the emotional expletifs there ACC. Yes I do know and so do mist people. Dalton has told us his spend! Coutts has too! They have also told us where they spent it. EG boats were 10 million....

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

You know, I know, everyone knows Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. aka Larry Ellison. Yes they had sponsors, but it doesn't take much to figure out that before you get sponsorship, you need to have a primary source of funding, which in Oracle's case was Larry Ellison, and in ETNZ's case was the government and Matteo De Nora.

Fuck you are really dumb.! eTNZ's main founder was Emerates ($90 million) the remaining founders were Toyota, Skyy, Nesspesso, camper NZ govt. justice emerites and NZG alone were $125 million... do the numbers! They were way over $150 million


ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

First and fore most, the problem is absolutely money. Without a primary source of funding there is no team, no base and therfor no sponsors. Before you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them an established team with a clear objective and an ability to reach that objective. That means you have to have access to money, and a lot of it. You can't just go to a sponsor and say. "I want you to sponsor our AC team, but we have no money and no team, but if you agree to sponsor us we can start putting stuff together" You'll get told to not let the door hit you on the way out.

What crap. Let's take your "Etna has less funds" argument...


If money is the difference and ETNZ nearly won with WAY LESS (but it was the management and skipper and planning that choked in my mind... not money) as all you kiwis keep telling us.

Then money has NOTHING to DO with IT!... got it now!

It not money it is where you spent what you have.

Examples are Australia 2 beating Liberty. Bond spent less but spent it well!!

tNZ winning for the first time!!! Blake spent less and spent it well.

Where did they spend it?... on the boat/techo not the people.

Dalton spent poorly and sat on his supposed advantage.

eTNZs problem was exposing there foiling option to soon. Dalton fucked up and Oracle pounced... no money involved in that stupidity.





And most people around the world see Dean Barker as a classy guy with a great track record who is a proud Kiwi and who represented his country with pride and dignity, its only you that thinks he's a failure, and like I said, you don't matter.

Classy guy... but not a winning sailor!... so for you Darker should look good... losing!


As for the proud rhetoric!... give us a break. Every kiwi is proud. Or at least they say they are.

barker is a mirage! He has the classy image but looks can be decieving. There is no substance. Jimmy is all Substance and does not trade on looks, money, and "look at poor sorry me" attitude.



A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts


There is no defeatist attitude, we lost, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, so accept it. New Zealand just can see the positives that came out of the loss. We were represented on the world stage, it reflected well on New Zealand as a whole and therefor we all benefitted from the great show ETNZ put on.

No! It was not "WE" that lost but a private bunch of guys who where not selected by NZ, in a private team sailing under a cloud of deciept calling d ETNZ, who were paid " over the top" to make poor decisions. This lost the cup. Not one New zealander, out side of the team was involved! ( albeit your Govt gave you're taxes to them without the blessing of the majority)



By the way, facts are actual documented evidence, proof that something actually happened. The're not made up rubbish that you think is right. You need to back those facts up if you're gonna use them. Until you show documented proof of the facts you speak of, tehy are NOT Facts.


Ha ha ... so where are you're fact that dispute my facts.

Emirates was NOT the founder of Emirates Team New Zealand. The primary backer of ETNZ is the NZ government. Emirates is just the major sponsor along with Nespresso.

Idiot... ETNZ did have way less, e.g one operational boat at a time, one sailing team and one launch crew. And in the end they DIDN'T win, therefor money IS absolutely the first issue. Oracle had alot more depth, but not just depth, they had a team jam packed full of the greatest sailors in the world! Now you can't tell me those guys do it for the love of it! They had two operational boats, as well as at least 4 AC45's and two world class skippers. You can't buy that unless you have the financial resource of Oracle.

 

Dude every team has a coach / coaches that select the teams. They select the teams. New Zealand doesn't select our All Blacks either yet we support them and they are our team. Just because you and I aren't selectors does NOT mean they shouldn't represent the country. Fact is whoever made the call obviously came to the decision they were the best of what we had available, so that made them Team New Zealand.

 

The foiling option was never going to be a scret very long. Not with an Oracle chaseboat hanging off their every move. Once it was out, it was out. It was either have it and not use it for a little while longer, or use it, get used to it and develop it. A lot of people would've done the same thing. Remember ETNZ were a monohull sailing team who had to convert to a new discipline of sailing. that takes time and practice. Thats why they started early. In hindsight maybe they could've waited a little while longer, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. And maybe if they had've waited longer they may not have mastered the foiling Jibe that Oracle copied.

 

Enough with peronal bullshit about Dean Barker and Grant Dalton, they have achieved more in their careers than you could ever hope to achieve. There was no "feel sorry for me" attitude from him. It was a feeling of pain (understandably) Yet he gave credit to the Oracle team. He was gracious in defeat and New Zealand loved him for it. That makes him a better person than you.

 

I don't pretend to spew incorrect facts that you do, I guess in your eyes, if you hear something, if someone tells you something, or if its on the internet...its GOT TO BE TRUE.



#54 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:11 PM

Sorry about that old chap.

Founder is supposed to be FUNDER, that should read better.

I was going to change it but could'nt be arsed!.. I thought you would figure it out..... :-)

#55 Yo..V

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:20 PM

Graham Brownie -  You ever stopped to wonder why your only friends are on internet message boards. ???



#56 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:46 PM

ACC - nice to see how you,cherry pick certain comments and spin you rhetoric to give more impact.

I have replied in between each paragraph...



FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

"Factoid" so you have inside knowledge on exactly how much Oracle and ETNZ spent on their campaigns?? I assume you did as you know for a "Fact" that Oracle spent 10% more than ETNZ. Cmon mate, no one knows how much each team spent except themselves, and Im sure they didn't tell you.

Yes I/we have information from Russ's own mouth. And I don not belive he is a liar. He stated it live on air on RNZ, (seem previous post re details!). Also the comparisons of obvious spend between teams backs this up. Remember ETNZ had two boats that were more expensive than larry's and Cores Mr Smyth verified build cost. Dalton also told us 60% of the or spend was misdirected to wages. Plus many other obvious things.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

Im not debating that, but every country has its own billionaires, but it doesn't mean they all want to enter the Americas Cup.


Yes you were debating that!


You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Rugby League is his thing. The NZ Warriors, not Team New Zealand.

No rugby league is one of his many "things"... because rugby league approached him!



Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

So you have inside knowledge of funds Grant Dalton had access to?? Jees you'd be the most knowledgeable sailing fan in the world today wouldn't ya?? Bullshit.

The only bullshit here is you! By this I mean he had the same amount of access to all the world billionaires/business,s a anyone. He just had to call on more of them. But I suspect his brash nature would have made that hard.


You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

Really?? You not only know how much they spent, but now you know where they spent it and what they spent it on?? You really are full of shit.

Now now less of the emotional expletifs there ACC. Yes I do know and so do mist people. Dalton has told us his spend! Coutts has too! They have also told us where they spent it. EG boats were 10 million....

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

You know, I know, everyone knows Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. aka Larry Ellison. Yes they had sponsors, but it doesn't take much to figure out that before you get sponsorship, you need to have a primary source of funding, which in Oracle's case was Larry Ellison, and in ETNZ's case was the government and Matteo De Nora.

Fuck you are really dumb.! eTNZ's main founder was Emerates ($90 million) the remaining founders were Toyota, Skyy, Nesspesso, camper NZ govt. justice emerites and NZG alone were $125 million... do the numbers! They were way over $150 million


ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

First and fore most, the problem is absolutely money. Without a primary source of funding there is no team, no base and therfor no sponsors. Before you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them an established team with a clear objective and an ability to reach that objective. That means you have to have access to money, and a lot of it. You can't just go to a sponsor and say. "I want you to sponsor our AC team, but we have no money and no team, but if you agree to sponsor us we can start putting stuff together" You'll get told to not let the door hit you on the way out.

What crap. Let's take your "Etna has less funds" argument...


If money is the difference and ETNZ nearly won with WAY LESS (but it was the management and skipper and planning that choked in my mind... not money) as all you kiwis keep telling us.

Then money has NOTHING to DO with IT!... got it now!

It not money it is where you spent what you have.

Examples are Australia 2 beating Liberty. Bond spent less but spent it well!!

tNZ winning for the first time!!! Blake spent less and spent it well.

Where did they spend it?... on the boat/techo not the people.

Dalton spent poorly and sat on his supposed advantage.

eTNZs problem was exposing there foiling option to soon. Dalton fucked up and Oracle pounced... no money involved in that stupidity.





And most people around the world see Dean Barker as a classy guy with a great track record who is a proud Kiwi and who represented his country with pride and dignity, its only you that thinks he's a failure, and like I said, you don't matter.

Classy guy... but not a winning sailor!... so for you Darker should look good... losing!


As for the proud rhetoric!... give us a break. Every kiwi is proud. Or at least they say they are.

barker is a mirage! He has the classy image but looks can be decieving. There is no substance. Jimmy is all Substance and does not trade on looks, money, and "look at poor sorry me" attitude.



A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts


There is no defeatist attitude, we lost, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, so accept it. New Zealand just can see the positives that came out of the loss. We were represented on the world stage, it reflected well on New Zealand as a whole and therefor we all benefitted from the great show ETNZ put on.

No! It was not "WE" that lost but a private bunch of guys who where not selected by NZ, in a private team sailing under a cloud of deciept calling d ETNZ, who were paid " over the top" to make poor decisions. This lost the cup. Not one New zealander, out side of the team was involved! ( albeit your Govt gave you're taxes to them without the blessing of the majority)



By the way, facts are actual documented evidence, proof that something actually happened. The're not made up rubbish that you think is right. You need to back those facts up if you're gonna use them. Until you show documented proof of the facts you speak of, tehy are NOT Facts.


Ha ha ... so where are you're fact that dispute my facts.

Emirates was NOT the founder of Emirates Team New Zealand. The primary backer of ETNZ is the NZ government. Emirates is just the major sponsor along with Nespresso.

Idiot... ETNZ did have way less, e.g one operational boat at a time, one sailing team and one launch crew. And in the end they DIDN'T win, therefor money IS absolutely the first issue. Oracle had alot more depth, but not just depth, they had a team jam packed full of the greatest sailors in the world! Now you can't tell me those guys do it for the love of it! They had two operational boats, as well as at least 4 AC45's and two world class skippers. You can't buy that unless you have the financial resource of Oracle.

 

Dude every team has a coach / coaches that select the teams. They select the teams. New Zealand doesn't select our All Blacks either yet we support them and they are our team. Just because you and I aren't selectors does NOT mean they shouldn't represent the country. Fact is whoever made the call obviously came to the decision they were the best of what we had available, so that made them Team New Zealand.

 

The foiling option was never going to be a scret very long. Not with an Oracle chaseboat hanging off their every move. Once it was out, it was out. It was either have it and not use it for a little while longer, or use it, get used to it and develop it. A lot of people would've done the same thing. Remember ETNZ were a monohull sailing team who had to convert to a new discipline of sailing. that takes time and practice. Thats why they started early. In hindsight maybe they could've waited a little while longer, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. And maybe if they had've waited longer they may not have mastered the foiling Jibe that Oracle copied.

 

Enough with peronal bullshit about Dean Barker and Grant Dalton, they have achieved more in their careers than you could ever hope to achieve. There was no "feel sorry for me" attitude from him. It was a feeling of pain (understandably) Yet he gave credit to the Oracle team. He was gracious in defeat and New Zealand loved him for it. That makes him a better person than you.

 

I don't pretend to spew incorrect facts that you do, I guess in your eyes, if you hear something, if someone tells you something, or if its on the internet...its GOT TO BE TRUE.

Don't compare barker to me compare him to all the skippers he has lost to.... all AC's, world champs, Olympic trial and olympics.

 

If darker was in pain then why did he not take time to consider his options before jumping back into the fire with 15 minutes of arriving back in NZ.

 

But hey. You guys go and back him.

 

Yeah! Go again with barker, let Russ set up another kiwi challenger, and learn nothing from past mistakes.... again.

 

 many kiwi don,t give a monkeys about how nice Barker is. Its about winning.

 

As for the 2000 suporters and 100 odd donations from loyal kiwis idiots ( who are bored with rugby, politic, and polluted rivers) 99% of kiwis think ETNZ are just a failed private enterprise taking tax money for some kind of miss informed marketing/tourism/exporting gain.

 

Yip! Go again with the same people, same concept, same funding, same loyalty.......   and same result

 

I've made my point and i will now sit back wait another four years and see what develops....

 

But I am going to make one prediction.... If Barker is involved in management or Skippering a AC  campaign.... it will fail.

 

The forum is now handed back to the Kiwi's to have the last word...

 

Make it a intelligent one...



#57 sclarke

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:02 PM

 

ACC - nice to see how you,cherry pick certain comments and spin you rhetoric to give more impact.

I have replied in between each paragraph...



FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

"Factoid" so you have inside knowledge on exactly how much Oracle and ETNZ spent on their campaigns?? I assume you did as you know for a "Fact" that Oracle spent 10% more than ETNZ. Cmon mate, no one knows how much each team spent except themselves, and Im sure they didn't tell you.

Yes I/we have information from Russ's own mouth. And I don not belive he is a liar. He stated it live on air on RNZ, (seem previous post re details!). Also the comparisons of obvious spend between teams backs this up. Remember ETNZ had two boats that were more expensive than larry's and Cores Mr Smyth verified build cost. Dalton also told us 60% of the or spend was misdirected to wages. Plus many other obvious things.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

Im not debating that, but every country has its own billionaires, but it doesn't mean they all want to enter the Americas Cup.


Yes you were debating that!


You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Rugby League is his thing. The NZ Warriors, not Team New Zealand.

No rugby league is one of his many "things"... because rugby league approached him!



Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

So you have inside knowledge of funds Grant Dalton had access to?? Jees you'd be the most knowledgeable sailing fan in the world today wouldn't ya?? Bullshit.

The only bullshit here is you! By this I mean he had the same amount of access to all the world billionaires/business,s a anyone. He just had to call on more of them. But I suspect his brash nature would have made that hard.


You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

Really?? You not only know how much they spent, but now you know where they spent it and what they spent it on?? You really are full of shit.

Now now less of the emotional expletifs there ACC. Yes I do know and so do mist people. Dalton has told us his spend! Coutts has too! They have also told us where they spent it. EG boats were 10 million....

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

You know, I know, everyone knows Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. aka Larry Ellison. Yes they had sponsors, but it doesn't take much to figure out that before you get sponsorship, you need to have a primary source of funding, which in Oracle's case was Larry Ellison, and in ETNZ's case was the government and Matteo De Nora.

Fuck you are really dumb.! eTNZ's main founder was Emerates ($90 million) the remaining founders were Toyota, Skyy, Nesspesso, camper NZ govt. justice emerites and NZG alone were $125 million... do the numbers! They were way over $150 million


ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

First and fore most, the problem is absolutely money. Without a primary source of funding there is no team, no base and therfor no sponsors. Before you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them an established team with a clear objective and an ability to reach that objective. That means you have to have access to money, and a lot of it. You can't just go to a sponsor and say. "I want you to sponsor our AC team, but we have no money and no team, but if you agree to sponsor us we can start putting stuff together" You'll get told to not let the door hit you on the way out.

What crap. Let's take your "Etna has less funds" argument...


If money is the difference and ETNZ nearly won with WAY LESS (but it was the management and skipper and planning that choked in my mind... not money) as all you kiwis keep telling us.

Then money has NOTHING to DO with IT!... got it now!

It not money it is where you spent what you have.

Examples are Australia 2 beating Liberty. Bond spent less but spent it well!!

tNZ winning for the first time!!! Blake spent less and spent it well.

Where did they spend it?... on the boat/techo not the people.

Dalton spent poorly and sat on his supposed advantage.

eTNZs problem was exposing there foiling option to soon. Dalton fucked up and Oracle pounced... no money involved in that stupidity.





And most people around the world see Dean Barker as a classy guy with a great track record who is a proud Kiwi and who represented his country with pride and dignity, its only you that thinks he's a failure, and like I said, you don't matter.

Classy guy... but not a winning sailor!... so for you Darker should look good... losing!


As for the proud rhetoric!... give us a break. Every kiwi is proud. Or at least they say they are.

barker is a mirage! He has the classy image but looks can be decieving. There is no substance. Jimmy is all Substance and does not trade on looks, money, and "look at poor sorry me" attitude.



A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts


There is no defeatist attitude, we lost, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, so accept it. New Zealand just can see the positives that came out of the loss. We were represented on the world stage, it reflected well on New Zealand as a whole and therefor we all benefitted from the great show ETNZ put on.

No! It was not "WE" that lost but a private bunch of guys who where not selected by NZ, in a private team sailing under a cloud of deciept calling d ETNZ, who were paid " over the top" to make poor decisions. This lost the cup. Not one New zealander, out side of the team was involved! ( albeit your Govt gave you're taxes to them without the blessing of the majority)



By the way, facts are actual documented evidence, proof that something actually happened. The're not made up rubbish that you think is right. You need to back those facts up if you're gonna use them. Until you show documented proof of the facts you speak of, tehy are NOT Facts.


Ha ha ... so where are you're fact that dispute my facts.

Emirates was NOT the founder of Emirates Team New Zealand. The primary backer of ETNZ is the NZ government. Emirates is just the major sponsor along with Nespresso.

Idiot... ETNZ did have way less, e.g one operational boat at a time, one sailing team and one launch crew. And in the end they DIDN'T win, therefor money IS absolutely the first issue. Oracle had alot more depth, but not just depth, they had a team jam packed full of the greatest sailors in the world! Now you can't tell me those guys do it for the love of it! They had two operational boats, as well as at least 4 AC45's and two world class skippers. You can't buy that unless you have the financial resource of Oracle.

 

Dude every team has a coach / coaches that select the teams. They select the teams. New Zealand doesn't select our All Blacks either yet we support them and they are our team. Just because you and I aren't selectors does NOT mean they shouldn't represent the country. Fact is whoever made the call obviously came to the decision they were the best of what we had available, so that made them Team New Zealand.

 

The foiling option was never going to be a scret very long. Not with an Oracle chaseboat hanging off their every move. Once it was out, it was out. It was either have it and not use it for a little while longer, or use it, get used to it and develop it. A lot of people would've done the same thing. Remember ETNZ were a monohull sailing team who had to convert to a new discipline of sailing. that takes time and practice. Thats why they started early. In hindsight maybe they could've waited a little while longer, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. And maybe if they had've waited longer they may not have mastered the foiling Jibe that Oracle copied.

 

Enough with peronal bullshit about Dean Barker and Grant Dalton, they have achieved more in their careers than you could ever hope to achieve. There was no "feel sorry for me" attitude from him. It was a feeling of pain (understandably) Yet he gave credit to the Oracle team. He was gracious in defeat and New Zealand loved him for it. That makes him a better person than you.

 

I don't pretend to spew incorrect facts that you do, I guess in your eyes, if you hear something, if someone tells you something, or if its on the internet...its GOT TO BE TRUE.

Don't compare barker to me compare him to all the skippers he has lost to.... all AC's, world champs, Olympic trial and olympics.

 

If darker was in pain then why did he not take time to consider his options before jumping back into the fire with 15 minutes of arriving back in NZ.

 

But hey. You guys go and back him.

 

Yeah! Go again with barker, let Russ set up another kiwi challenger, and learn nothing from past mistakes.... again.

 

 many kiwi don,t give a monkeys about how nice Barker is. Its about winning.

 

As for the 2000 suporters and 100 odd donations from loyal kiwis idiots ( who are bored with rugby, politic, and polluted rivers) 99% of kiwis think ETNZ are just a failed private enterprise taking tax money for some kind of miss informed marketing/tourism/exporting gain.

 

Yip! Go again with the same people, same concept, same funding, same loyalty.......   and same result

 

I've made my point and i will now sit back wait another four years and see what develops....

 

But I am going to make one prediction.... If Barker is involved in management or Skippering a AC  campaign.... it will fail.

 

The forum is now handed back to the Kiwi's to have the last word...

 

Make it a intelligent one...

99% yeah right. You have no clue. Not all AC's. Have you forgotten Dean steered NZL60 to victory on the 2nd of March 2000.

 

Why Didn't Barker wait?? Because he saw the (Unpredictable) reaction of New Zealand to the loss of the Americas Cup. The country wanted the team to go again. They wanted him to go again.

 

That's not to say changes won't be made, because they need to, and they will be made. No one knows what the next generation of ETNZ will look like. All they know is NZ wants Dean in some form or another.

 

Even though you have not made any relevant point to anything, go ahead, sit back, watch and wait. Thats all everybody else will be doing. I think you've made the most intelligent call for a long time by ending the hijack of the forum and handing it back to people that can actually debate the topic at hand and make intelligent discussion instead of endlessly hating on Dean Barker and Grant Dalton. 



#58 dgg

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:27 AM

See ya Yankee thanks for leaving. TIme for an open discussion and less of the hate speach.



#59 pipo

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:40 AM

 

 

ACC - nice to see how you,cherry pick certain comments and spin you rhetoric to give more impact.

I have replied in between each paragraph...



FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

"Factoid" so you have inside knowledge on exactly how much Oracle and ETNZ spent on their campaigns?? I assume you did as you know for a "Fact" that Oracle spent 10% more than ETNZ. Cmon mate, no one knows how much each team spent except themselves, and Im sure they didn't tell you.

Yes I/we have information from Russ's own mouth. And I don not belive he is a liar. He stated it live on air on RNZ, (seem previous post re details!). Also the comparisons of obvious spend between teams backs this up. Remember ETNZ had two boats that were more expensive than larry's and Cores Mr Smyth verified build cost. Dalton also told us 60% of the or spend was misdirected to wages. Plus many other obvious things.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

Im not debating that, but every country has its own billionaires, but it doesn't mean they all want to enter the Americas Cup.


Yes you were debating that!


You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Rugby League is his thing. The NZ Warriors, not Team New Zealand.

No rugby league is one of his many "things"... because rugby league approached him!



Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

So you have inside knowledge of funds Grant Dalton had access to?? Jees you'd be the most knowledgeable sailing fan in the world today wouldn't ya?? Bullshit.

The only bullshit here is you! By this I mean he had the same amount of access to all the world billionaires/business,s a anyone. He just had to call on more of them. But I suspect his brash nature would have made that hard.


You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

Really?? You not only know how much they spent, but now you know where they spent it and what they spent it on?? You really are full of shit.

Now now less of the emotional expletifs there ACC. Yes I do know and so do mist people. Dalton has told us his spend! Coutts has too! They have also told us where they spent it. EG boats were 10 million....

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

You know, I know, everyone knows Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. aka Larry Ellison. Yes they had sponsors, but it doesn't take much to figure out that before you get sponsorship, you need to have a primary source of funding, which in Oracle's case was Larry Ellison, and in ETNZ's case was the government and Matteo De Nora.

Fuck you are really dumb.! eTNZ's main founder was Emerates ($90 million) the remaining founders were Toyota, Skyy, Nesspesso, camper NZ govt. justice emerites and NZG alone were $125 million... do the numbers! They were way over $150 million


ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

First and fore most, the problem is absolutely money. Without a primary source of funding there is no team, no base and therfor no sponsors. Before you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them an established team with a clear objective and an ability to reach that objective. That means you have to have access to money, and a lot of it. You can't just go to a sponsor and say. "I want you to sponsor our AC team, but we have no money and no team, but if you agree to sponsor us we can start putting stuff together" You'll get told to not let the door hit you on the way out.

What crap. Let's take your "Etna has less funds" argument...


If money is the difference and ETNZ nearly won with WAY LESS (but it was the management and skipper and planning that choked in my mind... not money) as all you kiwis keep telling us.

Then money has NOTHING to DO with IT!... got it now!

It not money it is where you spent what you have.

Examples are Australia 2 beating Liberty. Bond spent less but spent it well!!

tNZ winning for the first time!!! Blake spent less and spent it well.

Where did they spend it?... on the boat/techo not the people.

Dalton spent poorly and sat on his supposed advantage.

eTNZs problem was exposing there foiling option to soon. Dalton fucked up and Oracle pounced... no money involved in that stupidity.





And most people around the world see Dean Barker as a classy guy with a great track record who is a proud Kiwi and who represented his country with pride and dignity, its only you that thinks he's a failure, and like I said, you don't matter.

Classy guy... but not a winning sailor!... so for you Darker should look good... losing!


As for the proud rhetoric!... give us a break. Every kiwi is proud. Or at least they say they are.

barker is a mirage! He has the classy image but looks can be decieving. There is no substance. Jimmy is all Substance and does not trade on looks, money, and "look at poor sorry me" attitude.



A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts


There is no defeatist attitude, we lost, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, so accept it. New Zealand just can see the positives that came out of the loss. We were represented on the world stage, it reflected well on New Zealand as a whole and therefor we all benefitted from the great show ETNZ put on.

No! It was not "WE" that lost but a private bunch of guys who where not selected by NZ, in a private team sailing under a cloud of deciept calling d ETNZ, who were paid " over the top" to make poor decisions. This lost the cup. Not one New zealander, out side of the team was involved! ( albeit your Govt gave you're taxes to them without the blessing of the majority)



By the way, facts are actual documented evidence, proof that something actually happened. The're not made up rubbish that you think is right. You need to back those facts up if you're gonna use them. Until you show documented proof of the facts you speak of, tehy are NOT Facts.


Ha ha ... so where are you're fact that dispute my facts.

Emirates was NOT the founder of Emirates Team New Zealand. The primary backer of ETNZ is the NZ government. Emirates is just the major sponsor along with Nespresso.

Idiot... ETNZ did have way less, e.g one operational boat at a time, one sailing team and one launch crew. And in the end they DIDN'T win, therefor money IS absolutely the first issue. Oracle had alot more depth, but not just depth, they had a team jam packed full of the greatest sailors in the world! Now you can't tell me those guys do it for the love of it! They had two operational boats, as well as at least 4 AC45's and two world class skippers. You can't buy that unless you have the financial resource of Oracle.

 

Dude every team has a coach / coaches that select the teams. They select the teams. New Zealand doesn't select our All Blacks either yet we support them and they are our team. Just because you and I aren't selectors does NOT mean they shouldn't represent the country. Fact is whoever made the call obviously came to the decision they were the best of what we had available, so that made them Team New Zealand.

 

The foiling option was never going to be a scret very long. Not with an Oracle chaseboat hanging off their every move. Once it was out, it was out. It was either have it and not use it for a little while longer, or use it, get used to it and develop it. A lot of people would've done the same thing. Remember ETNZ were a monohull sailing team who had to convert to a new discipline of sailing. that takes time and practice. Thats why they started early. In hindsight maybe they could've waited a little while longer, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. And maybe if they had've waited longer they may not have mastered the foiling Jibe that Oracle copied.

 

Enough with peronal bullshit about Dean Barker and Grant Dalton, they have achieved more in their careers than you could ever hope to achieve. There was no "feel sorry for me" attitude from him. It was a feeling of pain (understandably) Yet he gave credit to the Oracle team. He was gracious in defeat and New Zealand loved him for it. That makes him a better person than you.

 

I don't pretend to spew incorrect facts that you do, I guess in your eyes, if you hear something, if someone tells you something, or if its on the internet...its GOT TO BE TRUE.

Don't compare barker to me compare him to all the skippers he has lost to.... all AC's, world champs, Olympic trial and olympics.

 

If darker was in pain then why did he not take time to consider his options before jumping back into the fire with 15 minutes of arriving back in NZ.

 

But hey. You guys go and back him.

 

Yeah! Go again with barker, let Russ set up another kiwi challenger, and learn nothing from past mistakes.... again.

 

 many kiwi don,t give a monkeys about how nice Barker is. Its about winning.

 

As for the 2000 suporters and 100 odd donations from loyal kiwis idiots ( who are bored with rugby, politic, and polluted rivers) 99% of kiwis think ETNZ are just a failed private enterprise taking tax money for some kind of miss informed marketing/tourism/exporting gain.

 

Yip! Go again with the same people, same concept, same funding, same loyalty.......   and same result

 

I've made my point and i will now sit back wait another four years and see what develops....

 

But I am going to make one prediction.... If Barker is involved in management or Skippering a AC  campaign.... it will fail.

 

The forum is now handed back to the Kiwi's to have the last word...

 

Make it a intelligent one...

99% yeah right. You have no clue. Not all AC's. Have you forgotten Dean steered NZL60 to victory on the 2nd of March 2000.

 

Why Didn't Barker wait?? Because he saw the (Unpredictable) reaction of New Zealand to the loss of the Americas Cup. The country wanted the team to go again. They wanted him to go again.

 

That's not to say changes won't be made, because they need to, and they will be made. No one knows what the next generation of ETNZ will look like. All they know is NZ wants Dean in some form or another.

 

Even though you have not made any relevant point to anything, go ahead, sit back, watch and wait. Thats all everybody else will be doing. I think you've made the most intelligent call for a long time by ending the hijack of the forum and handing it back to people that can actually debate the topic at hand and make intelligent discussion instead of endlessly hating on Dean Barker and Grant Dalton. 

he does not hate them

he says they are pretty good, but not good enough to win the AC, because they a class or so behind RC, BA and quite some others

both in management and on-the-water

 

+1



#60 sclarke

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:49 AM

 

 

 

ACC - nice to see how you,cherry pick certain comments and spin you rhetoric to give more impact.

I have replied in between each paragraph...



FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

"Factoid" so you have inside knowledge on exactly how much Oracle and ETNZ spent on their campaigns?? I assume you did as you know for a "Fact" that Oracle spent 10% more than ETNZ. Cmon mate, no one knows how much each team spent except themselves, and Im sure they didn't tell you.

Yes I/we have information from Russ's own mouth. And I don not belive he is a liar. He stated it live on air on RNZ, (seem previous post re details!). Also the comparisons of obvious spend between teams backs this up. Remember ETNZ had two boats that were more expensive than larry's and Cores Mr Smyth verified build cost. Dalton also told us 60% of the or spend was misdirected to wages. Plus many other obvious things.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

Im not debating that, but every country has its own billionaires, but it doesn't mean they all want to enter the Americas Cup.


Yes you were debating that!


You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Rugby League is his thing. The NZ Warriors, not Team New Zealand.

No rugby league is one of his many "things"... because rugby league approached him!



Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

So you have inside knowledge of funds Grant Dalton had access to?? Jees you'd be the most knowledgeable sailing fan in the world today wouldn't ya?? Bullshit.

The only bullshit here is you! By this I mean he had the same amount of access to all the world billionaires/business,s a anyone. He just had to call on more of them. But I suspect his brash nature would have made that hard.


You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

Really?? You not only know how much they spent, but now you know where they spent it and what they spent it on?? You really are full of shit.

Now now less of the emotional expletifs there ACC. Yes I do know and so do mist people. Dalton has told us his spend! Coutts has too! They have also told us where they spent it. EG boats were 10 million....

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

You know, I know, everyone knows Oracle's primary source of funding was Oracle corp. aka Larry Ellison. Yes they had sponsors, but it doesn't take much to figure out that before you get sponsorship, you need to have a primary source of funding, which in Oracle's case was Larry Ellison, and in ETNZ's case was the government and Matteo De Nora.

Fuck you are really dumb.! eTNZ's main founder was Emerates ($90 million) the remaining founders were Toyota, Skyy, Nesspesso, camper NZ govt. justice emerites and NZG alone were $125 million... do the numbers! They were way over $150 million


ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

First and fore most, the problem is absolutely money. Without a primary source of funding there is no team, no base and therfor no sponsors. Before you go to a sponsor, you need to be able to show them an established team with a clear objective and an ability to reach that objective. That means you have to have access to money, and a lot of it. You can't just go to a sponsor and say. "I want you to sponsor our AC team, but we have no money and no team, but if you agree to sponsor us we can start putting stuff together" You'll get told to not let the door hit you on the way out.

What crap. Let's take your "Etna has less funds" argument...


If money is the difference and ETNZ nearly won with WAY LESS (but it was the management and skipper and planning that choked in my mind... not money) as all you kiwis keep telling us.

Then money has NOTHING to DO with IT!... got it now!

It not money it is where you spent what you have.

Examples are Australia 2 beating Liberty. Bond spent less but spent it well!!

tNZ winning for the first time!!! Blake spent less and spent it well.

Where did they spend it?... on the boat/techo not the people.

Dalton spent poorly and sat on his supposed advantage.

eTNZs problem was exposing there foiling option to soon. Dalton fucked up and Oracle pounced... no money involved in that stupidity.





And most people around the world see Dean Barker as a classy guy with a great track record who is a proud Kiwi and who represented his country with pride and dignity, its only you that thinks he's a failure, and like I said, you don't matter.

Classy guy... but not a winning sailor!... so for you Darker should look good... losing!


As for the proud rhetoric!... give us a break. Every kiwi is proud. Or at least they say they are.

barker is a mirage! He has the classy image but looks can be decieving. There is no substance. Jimmy is all Substance and does not trade on looks, money, and "look at poor sorry me" attitude.



A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts


There is no defeatist attitude, we lost, there's nothing anyone can do to change that, so accept it. New Zealand just can see the positives that came out of the loss. We were represented on the world stage, it reflected well on New Zealand as a whole and therefor we all benefitted from the great show ETNZ put on.

No! It was not "WE" that lost but a private bunch of guys who where not selected by NZ, in a private team sailing under a cloud of deciept calling d ETNZ, who were paid " over the top" to make poor decisions. This lost the cup. Not one New zealander, out side of the team was involved! ( albeit your Govt gave you're taxes to them without the blessing of the majority)



By the way, facts are actual documented evidence, proof that something actually happened. The're not made up rubbish that you think is right. You need to back those facts up if you're gonna use them. Until you show documented proof of the facts you speak of, tehy are NOT Facts.


Ha ha ... so where are you're fact that dispute my facts.

Emirates was NOT the founder of Emirates Team New Zealand. The primary backer of ETNZ is the NZ government. Emirates is just the major sponsor along with Nespresso.

Idiot... ETNZ did have way less, e.g one operational boat at a time, one sailing team and one launch crew. And in the end they DIDN'T win, therefor money IS absolutely the first issue. Oracle had alot more depth, but not just depth, they had a team jam packed full of the greatest sailors in the world! Now you can't tell me those guys do it for the love of it! They had two operational boats, as well as at least 4 AC45's and two world class skippers. You can't buy that unless you have the financial resource of Oracle.

 

Dude every team has a coach / coaches that select the teams. They select the teams. New Zealand doesn't select our All Blacks either yet we support them and they are our team. Just because you and I aren't selectors does NOT mean they shouldn't represent the country. Fact is whoever made the call obviously came to the decision they were the best of what we had available, so that made them Team New Zealand.

 

The foiling option was never going to be a scret very long. Not with an Oracle chaseboat hanging off their every move. Once it was out, it was out. It was either have it and not use it for a little while longer, or use it, get used to it and develop it. A lot of people would've done the same thing. Remember ETNZ were a monohull sailing team who had to convert to a new discipline of sailing. that takes time and practice. Thats why they started early. In hindsight maybe they could've waited a little while longer, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. And maybe if they had've waited longer they may not have mastered the foiling Jibe that Oracle copied.

 

Enough with peronal bullshit about Dean Barker and Grant Dalton, they have achieved more in their careers than you could ever hope to achieve. There was no "feel sorry for me" attitude from him. It was a feeling of pain (understandably) Yet he gave credit to the Oracle team. He was gracious in defeat and New Zealand loved him for it. That makes him a better person than you.

 

I don't pretend to spew incorrect facts that you do, I guess in your eyes, if you hear something, if someone tells you something, or if its on the internet...its GOT TO BE TRUE.

Don't compare barker to me compare him to all the skippers he has lost to.... all AC's, world champs, Olympic trial and olympics.

 

If darker was in pain then why did he not take time to consider his options before jumping back into the fire with 15 minutes of arriving back in NZ.

 

But hey. You guys go and back him.

 

Yeah! Go again with barker, let Russ set up another kiwi challenger, and learn nothing from past mistakes.... again.

 

 many kiwi don,t give a monkeys about how nice Barker is. Its about winning.

 

As for the 2000 suporters and 100 odd donations from loyal kiwis idiots ( who are bored with rugby, politic, and polluted rivers) 99% of kiwis think ETNZ are just a failed private enterprise taking tax money for some kind of miss informed marketing/tourism/exporting gain.

 

Yip! Go again with the same people, same concept, same funding, same loyalty.......   and same result

 

I've made my point and i will now sit back wait another four years and see what develops....

 

But I am going to make one prediction.... If Barker is involved in management or Skippering a AC  campaign.... it will fail.

 

The forum is now handed back to the Kiwi's to have the last word...

 

Make it a intelligent one...

99% yeah right. You have no clue. Not all AC's. Have you forgotten Dean steered NZL60 to victory on the 2nd of March 2000.

 

Why Didn't Barker wait?? Because he saw the (Unpredictable) reaction of New Zealand to the loss of the Americas Cup. The country wanted the team to go again. They wanted him to go again.

 

That's not to say changes won't be made, because they need to, and they will be made. No one knows what the next generation of ETNZ will look like. All they know is NZ wants Dean in some form or another.

 

Even though you have not made any relevant point to anything, go ahead, sit back, watch and wait. Thats all everybody else will be doing. I think you've made the most intelligent call for a long time by ending the hijack of the forum and handing it back to people that can actually debate the topic at hand and make intelligent discussion instead of endlessly hating on Dean Barker and Grant Dalton. 

he does not hate them

he says they are pretty good, but not good enough to win the AC, because they a class or so behind RC, BA and quite some others

both in management and on-the-water

 

+1

A few posts back I seem to recall the words weak, soft, Not a good skipper, lacking inspiration, no management skills, disorganised and should not be part of another campaign. A few hateful terms there. All the same terms said about Grant Dalton. OBVIOUSLY NOT the case.



#61 pipo

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:02 AM

many (most??) people are not good skippers, weak, soft, lacking management skills, disorganised.

does not mean we hate them

I genuinely dont think he "hates" them

he wants a(n) (even) better set up so he (NZ) can win the thing

 

if he hates them too, that's his problem :-)



#62 k1w1

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:33 AM

Yankee Doodle is posting from Kiwiland, folks.  

 

FWIW.

 

Your busted ...Wussel !!! 



#63 Desprit

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:09 PM

Yankee Doodle is posting from Kiwiland, folks.  

 

FWIW.

 

Your busted ...Wussel !!! 

 

If only that were true. The reality is much worse.



#64 react

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:08 AM

Russell's mum?



#65 nivaman

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:48 PM

Dude, I don't get it. So Kiwi's are behind ETNZ. What's wrong with unconditionally supporting your countrymen in a sport which is a pasion in our country?

 

What's wrong?

 

What's wrong is my tax dollars going into 3 time America's Cup loser Dean Barkers new multi-million dollar house.

That was paid for by uncle larrys byoff.



#66 sclarke

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:16 AM

 

Dude, I don't get it. So Kiwi's are behind ETNZ. What's wrong with unconditionally supporting your countrymen in a sport which is a pasion in our country?

 

What's wrong?

 

What's wrong is my tax dollars going into 3 time America's Cup loser Dean Barkers new multi-million dollar house.

That was paid for by uncle larrys byoff.

Haha amateur. Everyone has a job in life. It just happens that his is professional sailing, representing New Zealand in the Americas Cup. The government obviously decided that backing ETNZ was a worthwhile investment and that investment is providing an income for a lot of boatbuilders and designers and their families in this country, so suck it up and get over it. Politicians are the same. Your tax dollars (And mine) go towards their huge incomes, luxurious cars and million dollar homes and there's nothing we can do about it. Thats life. Everyone has to pay taxes, we may not like it or agree to what our tax is spent on but tough luck.



#67 TKR

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:00 AM

endlessly hating on Dean Barker and Grant Dalton. 

 

It is right to endlessly hate losers. Especially 2 and 3 time losers.

 

It boggles my mind as to why there is so much support for these serial losers.

 

We don't need 2 time loser Grant Dalton and 3 time loser Dean Barker.

 

We won 2 Americas Cups without them. We can do it again. It's time for a clean out and a clean slate.



#68 Speed demon

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:10 AM

Yes TKR, employing proven losers results in continued losses at the expense of the next tier.

History has a habit of repeating itself.


Chris Dickson was the previous loser and continued to fail at the big events. He continued through many AC's and never got any better than his first attempt.

Many have predicted Barkers failure which is why he has never been approached to other teams.

The Americas Cup is generally won by exceptional talent and management.

The best are not only great Skippers but also great managers who not only sail the boat but helm it too.

Bertrand, Conner, Coutts, are the pick of the bunch and look at their team building, management, and sailing skills compared to Barkers and Dickson's

Barker and Dickson are very good sailors but they are the same as other sailors
that have failed, like Davis, Blackaller, murray, Mc claughlan, Kolious...

Generally the sailors that do not win on there 1st and occasionally their 2nd attempt to not ever win. They just don,t have what it takes.

Dalton really didn't rate Barker when he first took over the team, but persisted as he was really the only Kiwi helmsman on the radar. I think he regrets that now.

Barker need to be released to be able to prove himself and find his real market value. If another team picks him up then his leadership will be tested and proved.

My fear is - he will not be picked and he does not want to be exposed to the potential rejection he could suffer. But in reality he needs a new challenge to prove his true value... no more hiding behind a NZ figurehead, he need to be the figure head.

In reality this will not happen, he will fail again, and another generation of fine kiwi sailors will move offshore.

#69 vij

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:57 AM

You are still forgetting that NZ lost to a faster boat. They came as prepared as they could and were winning until OR learned to sail there boat. Then it was game over due to boatspeed.

#70 sclarke

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:11 AM

Yes TKR, employing proven losers results in continued losses at the expense of the next tier.

History has a habit of repeating itself.


Chris Dickson was the previous loser and continued to fail at the big events. He continued through many AC's and never got any better than his first attempt.

Many have predicted Barkers failure which is why he has never been approached to other teams.

The Americas Cup is generally won by exceptional talent and management.

 

The Americas Cup is generally won by he who has the most financial resource. Team New Zealand is an exception to this rule.

The best are not only great Skippers but also great managers who not only sail the boat but helm it too.

Bertrand, Conner, Coutts, are the pick of the bunch and look at their team building, management, and sailing skills compared to Barkers and Dickson's
Bertrand, Connor, Coutts, they are the pick of the bunch. But with the exception of Russell Coutts, they have also all lost the Americas Cup.

We must not forget, Dean has also been to the top of the mountain, YES he has won the Americas Cup, and NO ONE can take that away from him.

Grant Dalton, he is a round the world sailor, and he's been to the top of the mountain as well.He's won that event as well as the jules Verne trophy on Club Med. And NO ONE can take that away from him. And the thing that has endeared both these guys to NZ is the fact that they have reamained loyal to their country where others haven't and they have won other events around the world. And they do it because they love to represent their country. As for anyone not wanting or approaching Dean Barker, even Larry said he has sailed with Dean Barker as his tactician so obviously he has been approached by other syndicates and other sailing teams around the world but everyone knows he is first and foremost TEAM NEW ZEALAND. He has publicly said he is Team New Zealand through and through.


Barker and Dickson are very good sailors but they are the same as other sailors
that have failed, like Davis, Blackaller, murray, Mc claughlan, Kolious...

 

Some people have the good luck to walk into a good team and win staright away, And thats good for them. Others win through persistance. Dean is one of those. Some people give up and never win, others persist until they achieve their goal. We can't discourage those that persist. Hate on them if you want to, but they have been to the top of their sport, and they are compeing at the highest level. Can you say the same??


Generally the sailors that do not win on there 1st and occasionally their 2nd attempt to not ever win. They just don,t have what it takes.

 

James Spithill lost 2000, 2003, 2007. Thats 3 times, Imagine if Larry had've thought the way you do.


Dalton really didn't rate Barker when he first took over the team, but persisted as he was really the only Kiwi helmsman on the radar. I think he regrets that now.

 

Thats Bullshit. Dalton was interviewed when he first took over after 2003 and he said publicly that everyone wanted Dean Barkers head on a pole, but he saw a man who wasn't soft and who was a great skipper and had all the potential in the world. Thats why he kept him on and why he also said as long as Dean wants the job its his. Dean will finish when Deans ready.

Barker need to be released to be able to prove himself and find his real market value. If another team picks him up then his leadership will be tested and proved.

 

Dean has a great track record including World match racing champion, an Americas Cup, two Audi Medcups, two Louis Vuitton Cups, Multiple Louis Vuitton trophies (Pacific series, etc) extreme sailing series, and ACWS title 2011/12. He has more than proven his worth.

 

My fear is - he will not be picked and he does not want to be exposed to the potential rejection he could suffer. But in reality he needs a new challenge to prove his true value... no more hiding behind a NZ figurehead, he need to be the figure head.

 

Changes need to be made. Most of New Zealand wants to see Dean as part of the campaign in some form or another. Wether that is as skipper is yet to be seen, but it is up to ETNZ to make that decision.

In reality this will not happen, he will fail again, and another generation of fine kiwi sailors will move offshore.

If they move offshore thats their decision, but we can't blame Dean or Grant for that. Everyone has to make the best decision for their life and their families, if offshore is the decision thats fine, its happened before and will happen again.



#71 Speed demon

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:35 AM

Clark.

You are. Becoming a lone cheerleader for Dean Barker and Grant Dalton.

How you can back these failed sailors and continue to back their continued failed attempt, management, skill base, delivery on money spent, and not nave any kind of accountablity is just ridiculous.

They failed there one and only KPI... winning the cup. People can spin this anyway they like butnthies teams leadership has failed on three attempts. Barker has lost three AC's and Dalton two.

Barker has never won an Americas cup as skipper. He has only won one race as a back up helmsman when the regatta was already won... a d with great assistance from Brad Butter worth and co.

How do you think the next generation view the continued backing of these people while potential winners have no chance.

You,re continued references to Barker sailing one winning race in an AC, a AC that was won by Coutts before handing a race to Barker, just show how deluded you are.
Loyal support is admirable! But continued support of people with a losing culture and a "gravy train" mentality is down right incomprehensible.

People like you are part of the losing culture problem in sport. People like you are the reason failed sportspeople have a false sense of security and continue to fail. They are told the are winners even when they lose thus they never adapt and learn. People like you actually promote Barker to keep failing and never learning.

Barker needs to be told..NO! You are not good enough go away and win something major and we come back to you.

Winning teams and winning management make big and tough calls.

Coutts does it. Manchester United most famous coach does it, event your All Black Coach does it.

They know when to change people when they are failures, out of form, having issues, weak spirited, or just out of there depth.

Great players know when to retire, move on, and most of all how to hand over to better people.

It appeared Barker does not know how to let go. His management cannot see his failures and how he is a high risk addition to the team. And people like you cannot see how silly it would be to keep doing the same dumb things with the same dumb people.


Praising Barker like he is some kind of winner just discredits all the fine winning sailors of NZ from from Cropp and Mander and Ralph Roberts ' Chris Bouzaid, to Barbara Kendall and Russel Coutts.

Everybody has there moment in the sun. But some get skin cancer from the glory of continues exposure to losing.

#72 Speed demon

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:35 AM

Clark.

You are. Becoming a lone cheerleader for Dean Barker and Grant Dalton.

How you can back these failed sailors and continue to back their continued failed attempt, management, skill base, delivery on money spent, and not nave any kind of accountablity is just ridiculous.

They failed there one and only KPI... winning the cup. People can spin this anyway they like butnthies teams leadership has failed on three attempts. Barker has lost three AC's and Dalton two.

Barker has never won an Americas cup as skipper. He has only won one race as a back up helmsman when the regatta was already won... a d with great assistance from Brad Butter worth and co.

How do you think the next generation view the continued backing of these people while potential winners have no chance.

You,re continued references to Barker sailing one winning race in an AC, a AC that was won by Coutts before handing a race to Barker, just show how deluded you are.
Loyal support is admirable! But continued support of people with a losing culture and a "gravy train" mentality is down right incomprehensible.

People like you are part of the losing culture problem in sport. People like you are the reason failed sportspeople have a false sense of security and continue to fail. They are told the are winners even when they lose thus they never adapt and learn. People like you actually promote Barker to keep failing and never learning.

Barker needs to be told..NO! You are not good enough go away and win something major and we come back to you.

Winning teams and winning management make big and tough calls.

Coutts does it. Manchester United most famous coach does it, event your All Black Coach does it.

They know when to change people when they are failures, out of form, having issues, weak spirited, or just out of there depth.

Great players know when to retire, move on, and most of all how to hand over to better people.

It appeared Barker does not know how to let go. His management cannot see his failures and how he is a high risk addition to the team. And people like you cannot see how silly it would be to keep doing the same dumb things with the same dumb people.


Praising Barker like he is some kind of winner just discredits all the fine winning sailors of NZ from from Cropp and Mander and Ralph Roberts ' Chris Bouzaid, to Barbara Kendall and Russel Coutts.

Everybody has there moment in the sun. But some get skin cancer from the glory of continues exposure to losing.

#73 Terrafirma

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:57 AM

ETNZ are big enough boys to make their own decisions. Coutts or no Coutts who really cares..? If you are going to spend $100 Million on a Cup Campaign surely they don't need Sailing Anarchy advisors from the our lounge room chairs.! They know Russell better than us and also know who will best serve them. Dean Barker as much as I love him has lost more than won when it comes to the cup and I think they need to make some changes with the team structure and I'm sure they will. Go the Aussies now LOL..!



#74 sclarke

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:47 PM

Clark.

You are. Becoming a lone cheerleader for Dean Barker and Grant Dalton.

How you can back these failed sailors and continue to back their continued failed attempt, management, skill base, delivery on money spent, and not nave any kind of accountablity is just ridiculous.

They failed there one and only KPI... winning the cup. People can spin this anyway they like butnthies teams leadership has failed on three attempts. Barker has lost three AC's and Dalton two.

Barker has never won an Americas cup as skipper. He has only won one race as a back up helmsman when the regatta was already won... a d with great assistance from Brad Butter worth and co.

How do you think the next generation view the continued backing of these people while potential winners have no chance.

You,re continued references to Barker sailing one winning race in an AC, a AC that was won by Coutts before handing a race to Barker, just show how deluded you are.
Loyal support is admirable! But continued support of people with a losing culture and a "gravy train" mentality is down right incomprehensible.

People like you are part of the losing culture problem in sport. People like you are the reason failed sportspeople have a false sense of security and continue to fail. They are told the are winners even when they lose thus they never adapt and learn. People like you actually promote Barker to keep failing and never learning.

Barker needs to be told..NO! You are not good enough go away and win something major and we come back to you.

Winning teams and winning management make big and tough calls.

Coutts does it. Manchester United most famous coach does it, event your All Black Coach does it.

They know when to change people when they are failures, out of form, having issues, weak spirited, or just out of there depth.

Great players know when to retire, move on, and most of all how to hand over to better people.

It appeared Barker does not know how to let go. His management cannot see his failures and how he is a high risk addition to the team. And people like you cannot see how silly it would be to keep doing the same dumb things with the same dumb people.


Praising Barker like he is some kind of winner just discredits all the fine winning sailors of NZ from from Cropp and Mander and Ralph Roberts ' Chris Bouzaid, to Barbara Kendall and Russel Coutts.

Everybody has there moment in the sun. But some get skin cancer from the glory of continues exposure to losing.

And you are a bitter, twisted person who can't see the wood from the trees. Dean Barker isn't the only person in Team New Zealand. Yes he is the skipper, but the whole team supports him as their skipper.
 

Dumb people?? The only dumb people are the ones sitting behind their computers blaming one man (occasionally 2) who are accomplished and celebrated sailors, who have great track records. these people know nothing of what it takes to compete in, let alone win the Americas Cup or any other major sailing regatta in the world.

 

Wether it is as helmsman or whatever Dean Barker has an Americas Cup win next to his name. There is no denying that. ETNZ have won everything but the Americas Cup. Oracle have lost everything but the Americas Cup.



#75 Speed demon

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:00 PM

Clark, I am not bitter I am happy my team won.

I predicted it 4 years ago and people laughed at me. I predicted Barkers failure and have been proven right ... again

Barkers was groomed by Coutts to become the next best sailor but unfortunately Coutts was forced to leave and Barker got blown of the harbour, lost the AC and has never mentally recovered.

I am a realist with clarity of neutral thought.

I not only see the woods and the trees but also the roots and the branches!... and they all point to Barker and Daltons leadership and planning failures.

But I suppose you are like Kmart kiwi's and want to blame the crew and workers for the loss and let the leadership go free. A bit lkke your government and local body leaders/losers you keep re-electing with minority voter participation.

Clark, even you are now confirming I am right. Your post does not now talk of Barker as a winner or great sailor, or world class but you know state lame things like... CELEBRATED AND ACCOMPLISHED. Hitler was celebrated and accomplished too but he lost. Ben Johnson was celebrated and accomplished and a winner until the drug test.

As for team support well where the hell are they. Where is the united front?

The crew are smart guys who right know are evaluating offers, their personal situation, finances, whether they will fit with the same team again, can they cope with another loss under the same team... they will be evaluating everything before committing one ounce of their time.

Unlike Barker who has not taken any time to do the right thing for him ( holistically) or the team.

Clark, take a deep breath. Thunk of whats is best for TNZ, think of what the best Calls are for the future and I think you will find that Barker needs to move on.

#76 sclarke

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:08 PM

Clark, I am not bitter I am happy my team won.

I predicted it 4 years ago and people laughed at me. I predicted Barkers failure and have been proven right ... again

Barkers was groomed by Coutts to become the next best sailor but unfortunately Coutts was forced to leave and Barker got blown of the harbour, lost the AC and has never mentally recovered.

I am a realist with clarity of neutral thought.

I not only see the woods and the trees but also the roots and the branches!... and they all point to Barker and Daltons leadership and planning failures.

But I suppose you are like Kmart kiwi's and want to blame the crew and workers for the loss and let the leadership go free. A bit lkke your government and local body leaders/losers you keep re-electing with minority voter participation.

Clark, even you are now confirming I am right. Your post does not now talk of Barker as a winner or great sailor, or world class but you know state lame things like... CELEBRATED AND ACCOMPLISHED. Hitler was celebrated and accomplished too but he lost. Ben Johnson was celebrated and accomplished and a winner until the drug test.

As for team support well where the hell are they. Where is the united front?

The crew are smart guys who right know are evaluating offers, their personal situation, finances, whether they will fit with the same team again, can they cope with another loss under the same team... they will be evaluating everything before committing one ounce of their time.

Unlike Barker who has not taken any time to do the right thing for him ( holistically) or the team.

Clark, take a deep breath. Thunk of whats is best for TNZ, think of what the best Calls are for the future and I think you will find that Barker needs to move on.

Look, there is no doubt changes need to be made. What those changes are, who knows, its not for anyone but Emirates Team New Zealand to decide who stays and who goes.

 

Maybe the team will decide they do need a change of skipper. If that is the case I (and the majority of New Zealand) will support that move. Until then Dean Barker is the skipper.

 

If team members leave, they aren't leaving because they think Dean is not up to the task, or because Dalts isn't a good leader, if that was the case they would've gone long before now, but they stayed because they believed Emirates Team New Zealand had the goods to win.  

 

Everyone needs to feel secure in their job, and feel they can support their families, unfortunately since the last campaign ended the future of ETNZ wasn't certain, so maybe they did think about going to a place where they felt they had a secure job. Thats natural. But no one has officially left yet. And once the funding is secure for the next challenge I'm betting we will find most will stay on. Persistance is the key to winning.

 

I am thinking about what is the right thing for this country. Believe me,  I have stuck with Team New Zealand even through the dark days of 2003. Team New Zealand (and now Emirates Team New Zealand) has gone from being the "back up team" to one of the best sailing teams in the world today. Is it really worth throwing that away and starting again?? Maybe, maybe not.

 

UNBELIEVABLE!! You compare Dean Barker to Adolf Hitler?? You truley are a delusional son of a b***h!! Dean barker is an Americas Cup skipper. Respected by millions of his countrymen and others around the world.

 

Adolf Hitler was a war criminal responsible for one of the most heinous examples of human genocide in the history of the planet. Hitler was pure evil and deserved to die. There is no comparison. War is NOT a sport with winners and losers.

 

You my friend are an idiot. You say "I am a realist with clarity of neutral thought" and then say "My team won" Do you know what neutral means??

 

There is no denying, New Zealand wants Dean Barker, we've seen that, we've heard that and we've read it in the papers. New Zealand unconditionally supports its sports teams that represent their country. Thats what we do. We aren't fairweather fans who only support when they win, unlike many others. Wether they win, or they lose, they are our team. The majority of America couldn't care less about a boat full of Australians and NZ'ers calling themselves Americans.



#77 sclarke

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:53 PM

But I suppose you are like Kmart kiwi's and want to blame the crew and workers for the loss and let the leadership go free. A bit lkke your government and local body leaders/losers you keep re-electing with minority voter participation.

 

Loser government?? You do realise the American government shut down right?? Leaving thousands of jobs in limbo. At least our government is working!!

Clark, even you are now confirming I am right. Your post does not now talk of Barker as a winner or great sailor, or world class but you know state lame things like... CELEBRATED AND ACCOMPLISHED. Hitler was celebrated and accomplished too but he lost. Ben Johnson was celebrated and accomplished and a winner until the drug test.

 

Hitler wasn't celebrated and accomplished, he was feared. Oracle Team USA was celebrated and accomplished in the ACWS until they cheated.

As for team support well where the hell are they. Where is the united front?

 

Where is the team?? Id say working behind the scenes to secure the teams future!!

 



#78 Poida

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:22 AM

Yankee loves a bit of abuse. Probably jerks off to it.



#79 burbanite

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:41 AM

Yankee loves a bit of abuse. Probably jerks off to it.

 

He has so many alter egos he could form one hell of a circle jerk.



#80 Speed demon

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:44 AM

Clark, I am not bitter I am happy my team won.
I predicted it 4 years ago and people laughed at me. I predicted Barkers failure and have been proven right ... again
Barkers was groomed by Coutts to become the next best sailor but unfortunately Coutts was forced to leave and Barker got blown of the harbour, lost the AC and has never mentally recovered.
I am a realist with clarity of neutral thought.
I not only see the woods and the trees but also the roots and the branches!... and they all point to Barker and Daltons leadership and planning failures.
But I suppose you are like Kmart kiwi's and want to blame the crew and workers for the loss and let the leadership go free. A bit lkke your government and local body leaders/losers you keep re-electing with minority voter participation.
Clark, even you are now confirming I am right. Your post does not now talk of Barker as a winner or great sailor, or world class but you know state lame things like... CELEBRATED AND ACCOMPLISHED. Hitler was celebrated and accomplished too but he lost. Ben Johnson was celebrated and accomplished and a winner until the drug test.
As for team support well where the hell are they. Where is the united front?
The crew are smart guys who right know are evaluating offers, their personal situation, finances, whether they will fit with the same team again, can they cope with another loss under the same team... they will be evaluating everything before committing one ounce of their time.
Unlike Barker who has not taken any time to do the right thing for him ( holistically) or the team.
Clark, take a deep breath. Thunk of whats is best for TNZ, think of what the best Calls are for the future and I think you will find that Barker needs to move on.

Look, there is no doubt changes need to be made. What those changes are, who knows, its not for anyone but Emirates Team New Zealand to decide who stays and who goes.
 
Maybe the team will decide they do need a change of skipper. If that is the case I (and the majority of New Zealand) will support that move. Until then Dean Barker is the skipper.
 
If team members leave, they aren't leaving because they think Dean is not up to the task, or because Dalts isn't a good leader, if that was the case they would've gone long before now, but they stayed because they believed Emirates Team New Zealand had the goods to win.  
 
Everyone needs to feel secure in their job, and feel they can support their families, unfortunately since the last campaign ended the future of ETNZ wasn't certain, so maybe they did think about going to a place where they felt they had a secure job. Thats natural. But no one has officially left yet. And once the funding is secure for the next challenge I'm betting we will find most will stay on. Persistance is the key to winning.
 
I am thinking about what is the right thing for this country. Believe me,  I have stuck with Team New Zealand even through the dark days of 2003. Team New Zealand (and now Emirates Team New Zealand) has gone from being the "back up team" to one of the best sailing teams in the world today. Is it really worth throwing that away and starting again?? Maybe, maybe not.
 
UNBELIEVABLE!! You compare Dean Barker to Adolf Hitler?? You truley are a delusional son of a b***h!! Dean barker is an Americas Cup skipper. Respected by millions of his countrymen and others around the world.
 
Adolf Hitler was a war criminal responsible for one of the most heinous examples of human genocide in the history of the planet. Hitler was pure evil and deserved to die. There is no comparison. War is NOT a sport with winners and losers.
 
You my friend are an idiot. You say "I am a realist with clarity of neutral thought" and then say "My team won" Do you know what neutral means??
 
There is no denying, New Zealand wants Dean Barker, we've seen that, we've heard that and we've read it in the papers. New Zealand unconditionally supports its sports teams that represent their country. Thats what we do. We aren't fairweather fans who only support when they win, unlike many others. Wether they win, or they lose, they are our team. The majority of America couldn't care less about a boat full of Australians and NZ'ers calling themselves Americans.
Claerke me old shimwa.

I did not compare Hitler to Barker. There is no comparison! Hitler had more followers and more wins!... that's a joke if you are getting excited with your next reply.

It is quite amusing now you read things the wrong way and have little knowledge of history and how people think. Clarke, Hitler unfortunately had thousand of followers, admirers, and people willing to die for him. He had Germans, Japanese, Russians, and even collaboration from many nations through abstaining from any postion. He was celebrated by thousands for the wrong reasons and celebrated by thousands as he marched west, south, north and east.

Very bizzare and very sickening but true.

Maybe now you can see how peoples perspectives are different and how you're myopic view point may be right in your eyes but wrong in others.

Hopefully this debate will harden your views to what is right for ETNZ? And how they may evolve and profess into a better team. Not a team where the re-shuffled deck chairs slow the inevitable drowning of another AC loss.

When you access Hitler you can see the sportsman in his evil drive to takeover countries. His manipulation of people was incredible and terrible. A study in leadership to extremes.

#81 2to1

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:32 AM

 

 



SC clarke, a couple of thing to consider...
Firstly don,t put words in my mouth. I DO NOT want the team disbanded and have never said that. I have never bagged anyone in the team except Barker and Dalton and Rod Davis (go thru my posts) in fact I really rate Ray Davies, Ashby, and the crew very highly.
I rate ashby and Davies as probably the best helm tactician combo ahead of Spit hill/ainslie. Alhough I rate Ainslie the best of the best.
Also I would like to see the team privately funded. Not Govt funded. This put to much pressure in people and would work against ETNZ if other countries followed suit.
In your mini rant above, you forgot to rate Ainslie. As far as AC skippers goes He is no 1 followed by Spit hill, Ashby, Coutts, then maybe a few other before barker.
As I keep saying. barker can steer as good as anyone. But his leadership, inspirational value etc... is hopeless
I like Daltons tough forthright style but he is flawed. His planning was poor with regard to kipper selection, regatta strategy (change management when thing were going wrong), and post regatta future planning.
Also worth considering, which most people here have not, is the power base going forward to the next regatta.
Because TNZ has not had a post AC plan they are now going to really suffer.
Why?...
Well The Oatley's have the two best sailors available to them if the nationality clause is instigated.
Yip! Spithill, Ashby, and a few others will be top of the hit parade.
Imagine those two together. Sailing against Ainslie for Britain, Coutts for NZ, and a couple of tough American teams... Barker would not rate in that bunch.
So right now I would put money on Aussie kicking ass at the next AC!
Also, Coutts, if ETNZ stuff around like they are ( well mainly Barker is stuffing around. The rest are strangely quite) and do not sign him up, will seriously consider and have no problem setting up a alternative NZ challenge.
Imagine Coutts doing that and sucking the sailors and available sponsorship away from ETNZ. ( maybe now you can see why I say what I do and are so critical of Barker and Dalton failing to execute and plan )
Yip! Coutts could get a terrific team together and maybe even ask the Govt for $40 million too!(now the precedent has been set!)
So know you may see why Govt funding is dumb! Why Dalt's piss poor "future planning_ is dumb" and why Barker is just a not in the same league .
A positive CEO and Skipper would have had a better plan ! Dalton and co don't.
Win or lose It would have had the following in place.
Funding incomes secured to retain key personal post the AC for three months minimum.
A hand over to a pre determined new CEO signed up month ago and announced immediately the AC finished. ( this is were Blake failed too! And why Coutts and co left)
A hit list of key personal targets to go for immediately the AC was over.
Signed up crew contracts that locked key players in for 3 months after AC finished to stopped poaching.
Plus many others...
Right now the Aussies, Brits, Americans, Italians, have planned to, and are currently, recruiting. ETNZ are not and had to beg to the Govt to help them out. how professional is that Mr. Dalton?
Also Dalt's should have had Most of the key player "retention plans" locked in when the original Contracts were signed. So the guys like ashby just rolled over with TNZ.
Especially Designers, tech staff, Davies, Ashby...
running a AC team is not rocket science. Any good CEO could do it. It is just good sold business practices.
After all if Russ ( the guy all you kiwis bag) can do it and Dalton can 90% do it then anybody can!

Finally coming up with some good points without shooting off at everyone you don't like. You say Russ is the "guy all you kiwis bag"  I dont think the word "all" is correct. Carry on and put some more rational thought into your discussion and people may actually listen to you. 
There is absolutely nothing rational about what "Yankee Doodle" has said...nothing whatsoever. First of all, you talk like raising 100 million dollars happens just like that. Get with the real world. The only reason Coutts has had free reign to buy the people he has is he's had billionaire backers with a bottomless wallet. There are just not enough billionaires in New Zealand. Infact We don't even have a billionaire in the top 10 richest men in the world, now I don't know about you but I wouldn't be willing to spend 100 million dollars on a campaign whos goal is to beat a team backed by the 5th richest man on the planet, therefor the only way to enter the Americas Cup was with government and sponsor support.
 
Second of all, Grant Dalton publicly stated it, everything hinged on ETNZ winning the Cup, there was no tomorrow if they didn't win. AT THAT TIME the country was 50/50 on wether the government should've backed ETNZ. And it looked as though there was not going to be any public support for any future campaigns if they didn't win. No one could have predicted what happened, how the country would do such a huge turnaround in terms of public support. The country is now solidly, unreservedly behind Team New Zealand in whatever form it may become. Dean was a huge part of that. He was the leader over there, he was the man who had the weight of a country on his shoulders, and he stayed focused the whole way. And when they lost, everyone felt the same way he did, and we realised something...this guy has to be absolutely devastated, he did NZ proud for months and now it was time to return the favour. There was no way we could let this guy come home in shame. So we got behind him in particular because of the genuine pain he publicly felt and endured. Thats why Dean is loved in NZ.
 
Third, it goes without saying that Ben, Jimmy and Tom Slingsby are some of the best in the world, there's no argueing that point, so YES those guys are great sailors and deserve everything they've achieved.
 
The reason why Dalts didn't have an ongoing funding plan was because there WAS NO ongoing plan (as I said) They HAD TO win the Cup or that was it, ETNZ was going to end with that loss. They've just been fortunate that the public has gotten behind them as we have, which is why they were so surprised with the welcome home they received. It wasn't bad planning at all, it was the fact that Dalts had poured everything they had behind this campaign, all the money, all the people, all the time went into winning the Cup, so you can imagine by not winning it would leave you in a situation where 12 months ago if you didn't win it was over, to now people wanting them to continue and have another crack at it, and having to FIND the funding to do that.
 
The campaign itself was great, it was structured, it was well managed (according to the budget they had) and it was executed near perfectly, but like Dalts said, if they've got the faster boat they'll win, and thats what happened. Dalts couldn't have done any more with the campaign they had.
 
Lastly, you say you'd like to see ETNZ privately funded, well, the trouble with that is, you have to have a private backer that wants to do that. Theres just not that many billionaires in New Zealand. New Zealand has a clean, green hardworking image and reputation, and niether ETNZ, the public, or the government is willing to sacrifive that reputation, which is why ETNZ is geared the way it is, around the Kiwi culture and reputation. That will never change. Team NZ always has been geared towards New Zealnd as a country. It will never be a boat representing NZ full of foreigners like oracle was. It just isnt the way New Zealand is.
Sorry AC Clarke but I could not read past you first "absolute rubbish" sentence.

You, my friend are way of the mark and seeing this debate through ETNZ/kiwi tinted glasses and that first paragraph proves it.

Firstly you state Coutts ability to GET billionaires to back his attempts.

Well! Is that not what He was trying to do for TNZ with Berterelli?... oh yes that's right it was! Yes he realized there were not many billionaires in NZ in 2001 and went to the world market!!

Also he was head hunted to sailed for the billionaires because, unlike TNZ/Blake/kiwis, they recognized his ability and talent... plus what he would bring with him.

FACTOID... ORacle did not spend all of Larry's billions and Coutts confirmed they only spent 10% more than ETNZ... so the billionaires requirement you rave on about is a non issue.

As for billionaires in NZ.. well you have Graeme Hart, the Todd family, the Chandler brothers, plus you have many billion dollar corporates and many many multi millionaires who could pool money.

You also have Owen Glen giving away millions to great causes...

Plus Dalton had access to billions from around the world. Which he tapped into. Maybe he should have flagged the camper millions and got them to fund eTNZ a foil control system!!!!!

You don't have to have a private backer to win the cup. You have to have the fastest boat, best aftergaurd and best crew to win. Dalton spent 60% on wages and not the boat! He spent millons on parties, ages and not on a back up skipper option!!! He just wasted the millions he had on the wrong things.

And no team has ever won the AC with a private backer. Not one. Ellison, Conner, Bond, Berterelli all had billions to spend but sponsors, TV rights, other supportive private backers, etc put more into the teams than the aforementioned people.

ACC - The problem is not money or access to it. The problem is many sponsors/funders do not see tNZ or the AC as a good investment and see Barker as a proven failure who would not win and provide maximum exposure of their brand beyond the AC they are sponsoring.

A C Clarke. Sorry to spoil your rant with the facts.

I did not read the rest of you post as I could not get beyond the stupidity and defeatist attitude/mindset of you first paragraph.

But hey. At least you put up a good argument and I admire you for that!... compared to the other here who just come back with comment that reflect their IQ

c'mon, bro, just admit it, you hate YOUR life.



#82 vij

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:32 AM



I predicted it 4 years ago and people laughed at me. I predicted Barkers failure and have been proven right ... again

 

 

 

How come that you predicted that 4 years ago and you joined here just a few weeks ago. Why do you keep changing name all the time yankee doodle. Why don't you just man up and stop being a kid. At least keep the same name all the time and stand for it.



#83 Groucho Marx

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:17 AM

Why the fuck take any notice of this multiple named, demented troll? - kill the brain (large question mark) and the body will die.



#84 Desprit

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:59 PM

Why the fuck take any notice of this multiple named, demented troll? - kill the brain (large question mark) and the body will die.Just 

 

Just call him Graham Brown and he will fuck off and quickly reincarnate as another identity. Its quite fun to watch it happen once you get the hang of identifying his unmistakable style.



#85 Titan Uranus

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 10:22 PM

Clark.

You are. Becoming a lone cheerleader for Dean Barker and Grant Dalton.

How you can back these failed sailors and continue to back their continued failed attempt, management, skill base, delivery on money spent, and not nave any kind of accountablity is just ridiculous.

They failed there one and only KPI... winning the cup. People can spin this anyway they like butnthies teams leadership has failed on three attempts. Barker has lost three AC's and Dalton two.

Barker has never won an Americas cup as skipper. He has only won one race as a back up helmsman when the regatta was already won... a d with great assistance from Brad Butter worth and co.

How do you think the next generation view the continued backing of these people while potential winners have no chance.

You,re continued references to Barker sailing one winning race in an AC, a AC that was won by Coutts before handing a race to Barker, just show how deluded you are.
Loyal support is admirable! But continued support of people with a losing culture and a "gravy train" mentality is down right incomprehensible.

People like you are part of the losing culture problem in sport. People like you are the reason failed sportspeople have a false sense of security and continue to fail. They are told the are winners even when they lose thus they never adapt and learn. People like you actually promote Barker to keep failing and never learning.

Barker needs to be told..NO! You are not good enough go away and win something major and we come back to you.

Winning teams and winning management make big and tough calls.

Coutts does it. Manchester United most famous coach does it, event your All Black Coach does it.

They know when to change people when they are failures, out of form, having issues, weak spirited, or just out of there depth.

Great players know when to retire, move on, and most of all how to hand over to better people.

It appeared Barker does not know how to let go. His management cannot see his failures and how he is a high risk addition to the team. And people like you cannot see how silly it would be to keep doing the same dumb things with the same dumb people.


Praising Barker like he is some kind of winner just discredits all the fine winning sailors of NZ from from Cropp and Mander and Ralph Roberts ' Chris Bouzaid, to Barbara Kendall and Russel Coutts.

Everybody has there moment in the sun. But some get skin cancer from the glory of continues exposure to losing.

got to say that this is brilliant!






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