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59er XX

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#1 sosoomii

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:07 AM

I haven’t sailed a 59er, but one has come up for sale. 

 

It always struck me as a decent boat that fluffed its lines.  The Bethwaites design(ed) great boats and have an understanding of boat dynamics second to none, but I believe that they overestimated the ability and patience of typical weekend warriors when it came to the 59er.  The masthead kite may be efficient but it looks dauntingly big.  But I was surprised when some started fitting a trapeze because, on paper, 14m2 of white sail on a 2m beam is well within the bounds of normality for a hiker.  The boom looks high, so maybe the centre of effort was higher than normal?

 

Is it inherently tippy like a 29er, or more stable like a Tasar?

 

I would like to sail it as a two person hiker with a crew weight of 150kg (so pretty much what it was designed for), but I would like to change the rig – specifically reducing the size of the kite and having a square top main. 

 

I am tempted to try a 29erXX rig on it, but with a fractional kite (maybe a standard 29er one?).  There must be lots of XX rigs gathering dust now.

 

Do you think that would work? 



#2 Daniel Holman

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:18 AM

Suspect it'd be fine - rumour has it was a decent ship that struggled to penetrate into rs400 territories largely due to price (higher quality epoxy construction, carbon mast) and the kite was probs a bit intimidating for round the cans.
May be a little stodgy with 29er kite, which is really quite small.

#3 sosoomii

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:01 PM

Thanks for that Mr H.  Any idea how wobbly they are?  More so than a  RS400 for sure.  More so than a 200? Probably. 



#4 Daniel Holman

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:45 PM

Not sure tbh never sailed one or seen one up that close in living memory.
If memory serves the 400 is really quite stable, the 200 shows its n12 lineage by being surprisingly twitchy. Or responsive, should I say.
Pretty sure on reading last bethwaite book that 59er is 1040mm or thereabouts between chines, and they modded prototypes out to that value whatever it was to make it accessible so I suspect it's fairly gentle.
Perhaps the min difference might be the ergonomics - the deep cockpit on 200 is easier for a hiker to get back into in a lull etc. can't e remember beam on deck of 200 but its quite big - perhaps even 2m so you're a long way away from CoB in a twitchy boat but its well within most people's skillset.

#5 JimC

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:50 PM

What do you think you'll gain over the standard rig? Assuming the Bethwaites got the rig pretty much right in terms of mast/sail relationship, why would you want to change it for something less well matched? You can be absolutely certain that a squaretop sail that doesn't match the mast will be worse than the std rig. Smaller kite, hmm. Think I'd try the proper one first. AIUI FB was aiming for the smallest kite that would be faster than square running in all conditions. You might find its not as intimidating in practice as in theory.

 

As for wobbly, can't see it would be anywhere near a 200, which was so skittish as a first proto that they put that skeg on it - the first on a performance dinghy in decades... Compared to a 400 - well you know the 400 has got Morrison's very low wetted area roundy sections and loads of rise of floor at the stern, whereas the 59er is in the Bethwaite line with more V sections and lower rise of floor at the stern, even if it has got a lot of rise at mid length. Given the carbon stick and slightly larger size its not obvious to me the 59er should have less static stability then the 400, and I think it ought steady up at speed better too. OTOH because I reckon its bound to be a sight higher in top speed than the rather top speed challenged 400 and so I'd expect it will give you less time to recover from a mistake than the 400.

 

My feeling was always that the trapeze messing round was one of the things that killed it: nothing destroys demand for a class like uncertainty, and why would you want to buy a heavyweights boat without a wire if it looks as if it might become a lightweights boat with one?



#6 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:07 PM

.

don't try to fix something thats not broken

 

greater minds have developed this boat, too much for a backyard designer  to come along and undo the good work

 

asymmetrics being larger has never been an issue, you merely pull away  which is aided by the prod steering the boat down 



#7 sosoomii

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:08 PM

1040mm is pretty generous, I was fearful it might be around 800mm. The 200 is 1.83m beam I think, but take your point.

 

 

I was thinking of changing the whole rig out  - so using the XX main sail and mast.   Partly becasue I'm a tart and they look nice (well, except the pink colour maybe), partly it is more modern and the square head development should be better.

 

If you use the rules of thumb Bethwaite describes in his book for apparent wind sailing beating running square, you can get away with a far smaller kite than the 59er one - that is the main reason I would want to try a smaller one (as you say, as small as possible whilst being effective).  I suspect that they couldn't resist fitting a mast head kite for the efficiency it brings, but I wonder if it wouldn't be significantly more user friendly, if a little slower, to make it fractional. 



#8 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:12 PM

'running square' is not a point of comparison, or an option with the downunder 'skiff' style of boat

 

why have a poncy sized kite? do you want to look like the 'Flanders' of skiffs ? 

 

its all theoretical or internet sailing, just go and try it

 

the kite is not big, it just has a full length luff, which is exactly the efficiency you speak of   



#9 sosoomii

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:22 PM

Sorry Gybeset, cross post. 

 

I have the absolute highest admiration for the Bethwaites – the first book has inspired my whole career. 

 

But unfortunately the average English lake doesn’t suit a 23m kite.  Sure I would try it first, but reckon 16m may be a better bet as it would still be quick but less daunting and less likely to be trawled and flogged.

 

If they did the 59er now, do you not think it would have a square head? 



#10 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:31 PM

it would

but possibly with a tad less luff length to equalise the heeling force ( with the current sail)

 

you realise that heeling force was arrived at carefully and scientifically by quite reasonable skiff designers that is not by us on a forum with the proverbial 'light bulb' and raised eyebrows of a 'fresh idea' ?

 

the only 'better smaller' kite would still have the length of luff optimised, so it would not be hiding behind the rig and jib

 

when the current main wears out ( not much point till then)  you could try a sqr top if the conditions you sail in are predominately Light,

On that note bear in mind if it is light-ish there is NO WAY you would opt for a smaller kite..

 

There is a kite chute yeah, no handling involved anyway, pull the string ! 



#11 sosoomii

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:43 PM

I understand exactly what you are saying.  But think of it this way - if the Tasar had been given a kite (an idea that was considered but dropped) it would not have been given a 23m kite.  It simply wouldn't fit the demographic of the class.  Similarly the RS200 (virtually exactly the same size and demographic as the Tasar) has a teeny tiny 8.5m assy kite, but has sold 1000+ boats, so seems to be popular.  So whilst the masthead 23m kite may be the best option from a purely sailing perspective, thera re other factrs that should be considered.  Maybe that is making a mongrel out of a thoroughbred, but mongrels have many benefits!



#12 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:52 PM

.

its a far larger boat than these toys, they cannot be compared to a boat nearly the same size as a 49er, and arguably less skittish

 

you could reduce area but nuts to take it away from the luff 

 

if you covet sails the size of a 200 or mirror the 59er is probably the wrong boat 



#13 Icedtea

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:06 PM

From what I've heard the 59er is a great boat- what someone said about it trying to fight with the RS400 for market share is right, they lost out due to their higher price, and build quality wasn't enough to save them- the RS is built like a tank.

 

I agree with what someone said above about it's not broke don't fix it- the Berthwaite's know what they're at. 

I heard a while back a trapeze kit was brought out for them, that might be worth checking out



#14 sosoomii

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:28 PM

I absolutely wouldn't want a trapeze - there are plenty of good trapeze asymmetrics out there (and lots of crap ones too).  I'm not saying it needs to be a docile as a 200 (or Mirror??!!), merely pointing out that the 59er tried chasing ultimate performance and didn't sell.  The 200 compromised performance and does sell.  And there is a reason for this. (Edit, to add that the 200 has small sails but is a tippy little bugger)

 

As it stands I think the 59er IS the wrong boat, not just for me but for plenty of others.  And that is a shame.  It has the newest generation Bethwaite hull around, so is bound to be great.  It probably has a very good rig, but it looks a little dated with the pin head.  Not essential to change it, but why not eh?  But the thing that appears most offputting is the size of the kite - it is supposedly a hiker aimed at pensioners but has a kite that is bigger than the twin trapeze RS800. 

 

I don't subscribe to the theory that the 400 killed the 59er.  The 400 had been established for many years before the 59er came along, so the price differential can not have been a suprise to Ovi's/Bethwaite.  And the 400 is only around in the UK, so that wouldn't explain the lack of take up elsewhere in the world (even Aus). 



#15 OzScoutSailor

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

I've thought for some time thats its a pity FB didn't put a kite on the Tasar, something in the 10-15 m2 size like the Laser 2 (yet more FB). There is something nice about the relative simplicity of the Tasar rig, as mentioned its probably part of the target demographic,



#16 Daniel Holman

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:23 PM

I absolutely wouldn't want a trapeze - there are plenty of good trapeze asymmetrics out there (and lots of crap ones too).  I'm not saying it needs to be a docile as a 200 (or Mirror??!!), merely pointing out that the 59er tried chasing ultimate performance and didn't sell.  The 200 compromised performance and does sell.  And there is a reason for this. (Edit, to add that the 200 has small sails but is a tippy little bugger)

 

As it stands I think the 59er IS the wrong boat, not just for me but for plenty of others.  And that is a shame.  It has the newest generation Bethwaite hull around, so is bound to be great.  It probably has a very good rig, but it looks a little dated with the pin head.  Not essential to change it, but why not eh?  But the thing that appears most offputting is the size of the kite - it is supposedly a hiker aimed at pensioners but has a kite that is bigger than the twin trapeze RS800. 

 

I don't subscribe to the theory that the 400 killed the 59er.  The 400 had been established for many years before the 59er came along, so the price differential can not have been a suprise to Ovi's/Bethwaite.  And the 400 is only around in the UK, so that wouldn't explain the lack of take up elsewhere in the world (even Aus). 

 

Pretty sure that its UK builder Chris Turner of Ovi fame rated the 59er as a great husband wife boat - pretty importnant in this day and age and the reason why the merlin rocket is healthier than certain other esoteric 14 ft development classes that aren't any more expensive in real terms. Sure the 400 was around first, but I suspect that knocking that off its perch wasnt at the front of FB's mind when developing it. nonetheless a pricier (but about 40kg??! lighter) boat came about and we all know that people buy on price first.

 

GS - mixed team stuff apart, a reason for the traction in the UK of the likes of the RS200 is that with its crappy little kite and modest pace, you can hold the kite around far more legs on a crappy club RTC course on a crappy gravel pit in the midlands somewhere, And its still a laugh on open water ww/lw esp in big fleets, which they get at opens/nats, so its relevant to all arenas.

Even the RS 800, with a smaller kite than 59er but far more RM, is far too quick for a lot of smaller clubs courses, and will hold its kite on say 30% less reaches than a RS200, all despite being designed around mixed crews (see a pattern here.. ) It'll burn a crew out quickly hoisting and dropping, especially those marginal drops that you do at the last minute because a cow farted in a field and suddenly you can't make the gybe bouy. So the wife/girlfriend will be put off / intimidated / knackered and go back to the RS200 / Merlin / N12

Suspect that the 59er as designed would be just fine mixed teams on expansive water and/or ww/lw, but sadly that isn't the reality of most dinghy sailing in the UK, so less herd mentality and thus critoical mass needed to achieve class traction.

 

Don't doubt you could do better than original rig - square tops are just plain better, but these SMOD rigs are always too bendy even in the first place, but procuring a modern fitted developed rig will cost an arm and a leg so if you have access to a 29er XX rig then I am sure that would be ok if the "J" measurement is OK, areas similar and you're happy to mess about with shrouds etc.



#17 Damp Freddie

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:51 PM

To answer Op: it depends what you have sailed before, what your winds are on average and as said above, if you sail on a puddle in regular force fives then you are going to need wheels not a square top main. The boat sails faster than wind speed and you need to bear away a wee tad

I think the 59er is a fanatstic bit of kit, pleasure to have a days sailing in one with Dave Hall (now of Rondar i believe).It is more stable than a 29er, infact we sailed in gusts of over 20 knts and it was more stable than a tasar due to the gust responsive top mast, opening top down as it should.

The wetted area is more developed for performance through the wind range than the b14 and other 9ers, witth Frank taking average club winds across the world into account. It is way,way quick in light winds apparently and a blast in more. Much easier and lighter to sail in over 14 knts than an Rs 400 which i have done many hours as crew and helm.

Whether or not that nice rocker and chine design will get used with a different upstairs is a different question; as Gybsie says they design boats as a complete system with payload in mind.

Julian B would probably reply if you send him an e mail, but i would get a test sail on the one for sale with the owner to feel how great the original is.

Pm me if you want

#18 Damp Freddie

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:43 PM

Looking forward to getting a copy of the late, great Frank Bethwaite's posthumous update "higher performance sailing"

The 59er development features a lot in this

http://books.google....innaker&f=false


And you can read how well it does across the wind range in the hands of experts here, wrtitten by FB too
http://www.members.s...001/vision.html

#19 sailingkid

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:24 AM

I think I saw a 59er with an Xx main on it sailing around rose bay the other day, so its probably been tried.

#20 sosoomii

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:56 AM

That's good to hear. 

 

Do 59ers use the ali 29er foils?



#21 JulianB

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:46 PM

XX rig drops straight onto a 59er, only the jib is different.

 

Up the tension on the caps and you can body swing it.

 

My take on the 59er.

 

    Should have gone for cheap Polyester construction, it did not need epoxy.

   It was too big as in too long (its longer than a 49er)

   & Dad simply tried to hard to give everyone the perfect boat.

 

But perfect, even to a 80+ year old who could sail it relativity well was beyond most.

Its probably too fast also.

 

             JB

 

   People don't want the perfcet boat, often because 



#22 sosoomii

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:16 PM

Thanks for dropping in on this Julian, very much appreciated.  It looks a great boat, but perhaps too focussed on being a thoroughbred with little compromise to those whose skill or agility aren't as good as they could be.  I can't blame your dad for tha tat all, but the reality is it is perhaps a tad daunting for many as it is.


As I say, I'd love to see a version with an xx rig and smaller kite.  I think there would be a market for that, especially as it can almost be made from bin parts (in the nicest possible sense!).



#23 Damp Freddie

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:10 AM

Would be interesting to see it with the XX rig - a 39er reborn JB?

 

I reckon the 59er with standard rig, could find a very good niche as a trainer boat for youth , with a single or even double trap and the instructor sitting on the bench /side. 



#24 olivers

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

Plenty of 29erXX rigs for sale on 29erNorthAmerican.org under Used/Wanted ...



#25 southseasailor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 06:44 PM

If your lake is a bit small then why not the RS500?



#26 sosoomii

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:01 PM

You're kidding, right?

#27 Daniel Holman

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 07:37 PM

Ha ha

#28 JulianB

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:18 AM

Got way too much on right now to think about a 39er.

 

If you can get a old 59er, then you wont be dis-appointed.

Its a great boat, a lot of Dad in it, even if it a bit too wild for some.

 

            JB



#29 Damp Freddie

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:45 PM

Was the 59er Frank's last boat design?

Looking forward to reading higher performance sailing on the dark winter nights, on the xmas list.

His spirit lives on- great to see a revival in the tasar !

Perhaps the 59er could be sold as a training package with both the Xx rig and the standard one to schools, sports institutes and rich clubs? You could sail three up with both rigs, instructor on board.

#30 JulianB

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:49 AM

Depends on what you call design.

 

I would think that the work he did on getting the 49er up on foils, he would consider his final legacy.

 

Put a huge amount of work into that, we could not temped him with a ride, and given he was late 80's that possibly understandable.

 

I occasional, over a glass of red (which he and I had regularly) think what he would be up to now if he was still with us.

 

             jb



#31 couchsurfer

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:49 AM

Depends on what you call design.

 

I would think that the work he did on getting the 49er up on foils, he would consider his final legacy.

 

Put a huge amount of work into that, we could not temped him with a ride, and given he was late 80's that possibly understandable.

 

I occasional, over a glass of red (which he and I had regularly) think what he would be up to now if he was still with us.

 

             jb

.

 

...I'llbet Frank's getting some good rides now!

 

 

 

...and better 'red' than the roo-plonk that exists down here :mellow: .................GO THE FRANK!!!



#32 fdsailor

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:13 PM

Someone like Hartley Laminates would do a nice job of a reborn 59er, maybe in poly or vinyl. Their Osprey's are nicely built and a good price point too



#33 JohnnyP

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:35 PM

From my experience the 59er just seemed a bit over powered. Also hiking with such low side decks/gunwale is a bit hard. I suppose I should stick to my Finn. Nice and comfy...

#34 teener

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 03:10 AM

Beg to disagree,  the 59er is probably the most comfy hiking platform I have ever had the  pleasure of hanging my bum off of.  Nice rounded tanks.

One thing you can't do on a 59er is take it easy in light air, constant attention required or it falls right over.



#35 Steam Flyer

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 03:39 AM

Beg to disagree,  the 59er is probably the most comfy hiking platform I have ever had the  pleasure of hanging my bum off of.  Nice rounded tanks.

One thing you can't do on a 59er is take it easy in light air, constant attention required or it falls right over.

 

Did any 59ers make it to the USA?

 

FB- Doug



#36 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:50 AM

in light air, constant attention required or it falls right over.

LOL, I don't think so

compared to what? a Lightning or Rhodes 19?

its not overly narrow, your comment makes it sound like a lowrider moth or something

it has more in the water(the waterplane) than a 29er or 49er, it must be approaching or more likely matching Tasar initial stability

#37 teener

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 06:32 AM

In the light you can't just sit on it.  You have to keep on top of it or it rolls over all on it's own.  It's not I14 fast, it shouldn't require I14 attention.  Plenty of quick boats out there let you take it easy when the wind is nil.



#38 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:01 AM

.
it's a contemporary performance design, as a dinghy you use crew weight not deadweight to oppose the sail forces
surely that happens on a V15

59er its designed for old farts, its the largest waterplane and most stable of the 9er types, not including the SKUD

there scores of less stable boats, this would be on a par with a Tasar, at least

#39 facthunt

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:40 AM

What if your crew is dead, some people I know can only get dead people to sail with, they don't mind much about anything.



#40 facthunt

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 11:41 AM

In the light you can't just sit on it.  You have to keep on top of it or it rolls over all on it's own.  It's not I14 fast, it shouldn't require I14 attention.  Plenty of quick boats out there let you take it easy when the wind is nil.

I think your confused with the 69er.



#41 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 01:42 PM

i would back a dead anzac sailor against 'teener'

what a guru

#42 couchsurfer

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 02:20 PM

i would back a dead anzac sailor against 'teener'

what a guru

.

 

...... :lol: .....gotta say!



#43 teener

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 05:24 PM

Gybe, try sailing one before you comment.  Have you ever sailed on a 59er?  Ever raced on a 59er?  Obviously not or you wouldn't be so wrong.  Sure the hull is as stable as a Tasar but 59er carries a whole lot more rig.  Falls right over.  Tasar stays upright at the dock if only barely.  Imagine putting a 59er rig on it.



#44 fastyacht

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 06:24 PM

This is funny.

505 a the dock feels like it will roll over on you. Tryint to raise the main tied to the dock can be very embarrassing.

FD feels like a pontoon at the dock. You can practically take a stroll along the gunwale.

Both are fast great boats. Both stable underway.

 

GS is right in his own way (along the comment re: Lightings), but so is teener. Matter of perspective.



#45 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 09:18 PM

by clikey !

#46 facthunt

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 10:25 PM

Gybe, try sailing one before you comment.  Have you ever sailed on a 59er?  Ever raced on a 59er?  Obviously not or you wouldn't be so wrong.  Sure the hull is as stable as a Tasar but 59er carries a whole lot more rig.  Falls right over.  Tasar stays upright at the dock if only barely.  Imagine putting a 59er rig on it.

Well I cant even imagine a tasar with a 59er rig, that's gone way beyond pimp my ride, once that sucker falls right over your dead crew become unbalanced, next minute theyre in the water.

its been a life long dream of mine to own a 59er, well that and a silver delorean tow vehicle. I could take Julian back to 1998 where it all could be repeated with 20/20 hind sight.



#47 facthunt

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 10:43 PM

Was the 59er Frank's last boat design?

Looking forward to reading higher performance sailing on the dark winter nights, on the xmas list.

His spirit lives on- great to see a revival in the tasar !

Perhaps the 59er could be sold as a training package with both the Xx rig and the standard one to schools, sports institutes and rich clubs? You could sail three up with both rigs, instructor on board.

try this instead

http://www.youtube.c...e&v=XUqn2x6sGRo



#48 Bootscooter

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:16 PM

Sosoomii - where do you sail?

 

I know you said you didn't want a trapeze, but have you thought about coming for a try of the Alto?  It's incredibly comfortable, forgiving and confidence inspiring, and the pole swings round about twice as far as on the 400, giving you the option of square(ish) running on restricted waters.  Demos available ain Kent, Suffolk and Oxford... B)



#49 sosoomii

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 01:22 PM

Hi Bootscooter, thanks for the offer.  The Alto looks a decent alternative to a L4000 or Iso, but isn't really what I'm after.  I'm after a project more than a boat - something to do over winter.  Hoping to get busy on singlehander soon though, so will leave the 59erXX as a project for another day.



#50 59er newbie

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 04:57 AM

Beg to disagree,  the 59er is probably the most comfy hiking platform I have ever had the  pleasure of hanging my bum off of.  Nice rounded tanks.
One thing you can't do on a 59er is take it easy in light air, constant attention required or it falls right over.

 
Did any 59ers make it to the USA?
 
FB- Doug


#51 59er newbie

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:06 AM

Steam Flyer.... not quite the US, but I'm importing a 59er into Toronto. I also know there is one up for sale in California so there will be at least two on the continent.

#52 Headntac

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 04:00 AM

From my experience the 59er just seemed a bit over powered. Also hiking with such low side decks/gunwale is a bit hard. I suppose I should stick to my Finn. Nice and comfy...

Quote of the week........ B)
 
I thought it was that everyone wanted instant success...try then buy and then go and PRACTISE

#53 branchingfactor

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 04:13 AM

Steam Flyer.... not quite the US, but I'm importing a 59er into Toronto. I also know there is one up for sale in California so there will be at least two on the continent.

Do you have a link to the 59er for sale in CA?



#54 59er newbie

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 03:26 AM

Branching factor Sure thing - here is the link to Russell' s 59er in San Francisco - scroll down to the end of the page for the listing http://www.29ernorth.../buy/used.shtml Pls keep me posted on how you make out.

#55 59eer

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:51 AM

I am an older windsurfer who bought a 59er a few years ago thinking about sailing with my young kids when they got a bit older

We started sailing it a bit last summer on a lake now that my boy is 8

We view this as a challenge to work out together. Kind of like a beautiful but tricky horse

It's such a beautiful craft. We're moving it to toronto this summer so I guess we'll have company

Cheers
Mark

#56 timeonthewater

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 09:54 PM

Hi

I have a modified 59er, with a i14 all carbon modern, current square head rig, with overlapping fully battened headsail..For the past 3 seasons, so I can provide feedback rather than speculation.

 

I have effectively got a dual rig 59er, the "number one" rig with the adjustable caps on the CST I14 carbon mast and B14 kite and cockpit bag, which works up to 16kts and then the regular sail plan with the flat sails, with or without the trapeze, depending on crew.  

 

I've cruised around at 16kts on the Velocitek with the kite with 2  five year olds playing the kite and main downwind, as there are very little sheet loads, hey love the shallow cockpit more than I do though.

 

The boat's static stability as some have pointed out isn't that great, but better than a 29er I used to have, Which just fell on top of you in light winds, as will the 59er if you perch heavily on the wide wings. The I14 sail plan is better in the light winds due to larger and deeper profile that can be progressively flattened off.  I hasten to add that the main is a high wind custom I14 main that was designed for the windy Weymouth Worlds, so is perfect size for the boat.

 

I have a 29er XX jib which is slightly aspect ratio than the 59er jib, which I use for big breeze days as the foot is a little shorter to the self tacker track.

 

I tried using a RS800 foil rather than the standard, ali 29er centreboard, but found it too long and spent most of the time retracted at speed, like the B14's, so no real advantage other than a weight saving,  It's a great all round cheap (rock bottom price in the UK) fun boat, now with a great versatility in crew weights and sizes...not bothered in racing her really, as dinghy clubs lean their courses towards kids in toppers and devas, so no one wants to play windward leeward. There will be a resurgence of interest, as us older people know, what goes around comes around, and it has given me some great summer sailing..even singlehanded with the long twin tiller  set up.

 

hope that clears up the speculations






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