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Performance 30ish..European take


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#1 Pelle

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:44 AM

Same question as in the other thread but with a European perspective. I'm looking for a 30ish sized boat mainly for shorthanded distance racing with some weekend cruising on the side. Windward/leeward racing is not in the plan. Budget is up to 60 k€ but that must include decent racing sails so maybe 50k max for the boat with a 10k allowance for some relacement sails. Ideally the beam should be 3 m or less as there are much more slips available locally if you stay below 3 m beam, It must be possible to make the boat OSR cat compliant and I do want a inbord diesel engine as the delivires to from racing will be considarable. I would prefer a boat built this century  

 

Boats I've looked at so far:

 

J-92/92S: Nice boats in my eyes maybe the best option so far. A 92 can easily be found within the budget a 92s is maybe on the limit. Seems like a nice boat but the ones that sail locally have showed any great performance which makes me a bit wary. I do understand that they have shown decent performance under IRC in the UK though? Anyone with insight?

 

Corby 29: Not many built but a few on the market. Nice boats but maybe to oriented towards W/L performance in my taste. Problematic to buy due lack of CE-marking (You really need this to get a vilid insurance policy here)

 

POGO 8.50: A bit of odd bird but I do like the style of the boat. I 've never sailed on one so if anyone have any experience I would love to hear that. I understand that it would not be a good W/L boat but can you get decent performance out of it for distance racing? Large beam is drawback for docking.

 

X-99: Can easily be had within budget. Performs well in light air but a handful shorthanded in a blow. Ticks many boxes on paper but I don't care for the spindly rig with runners.

 

Any other ideas that I have missed?



#2 micha571

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:27 AM

Pelle:

 

agreed, the X-99s rig looks spindly. But it takes almost anything. We've sailed our 99 in strong winds, upwind, downwind, with big kite and all, no problems ever. Handling the runners is just a thing of getting used to. You can even singlehand the boat. And yes, it's a killer in light airs.

And, not to forget, good used sails are always available relatively cheap. So I wouldn't rule out that boat.



#3 Gone Ballistic

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:20 AM

I've not got your budget, but I really like the Mount Gay / Whitbread 30 and ILC 30 types. They look easy to get on with and fairly cheap to run.



#4 JL92S

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:36 PM

A J92S has it's days under irc. In the uk a well sailed J92S can be competitive in the light breeze and in heavy breeze. The achillies of the 92S is the J97. The 97 outperformes it in the breeze you find in the uk which is around 10-15kts in sub 10 a 92S is competitive and 16+ it's competive. You'll find a J92 of any kind really fun to sail and it'll achieve good results in the right conditions

#5 cms

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:36 PM

The J/92s is VERY wet offshore. Search and you might find an older J/105. Pogo 8,50 struggles under IRC and is all round sticky in light stuff. First 33.7 is a bit of a dark horse which can be very competitive under IRC. Projection 960?



#6 LeoV

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:25 PM

Archambault grand surprise



#7 micha571

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:32 PM

What's a Projection 960? Google doesn't turn up anything..

#8 Bulbhunter

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:00 PM

Lots of Xboats listed for sure. For short handed stuff and that price range is tricky given it lands you right in the design era where they were building boats for crewed racing. Unless you can find a sporty 30ish footer cruiser which case chances are its layout and set up is more in the direction of double handed efforts etc.

 

I would probably look at all the IRC ratings for a range of boats that all are considered racer/cruiser type boats in that same general age range and see which one's seem to have a pretty good history of doing well in regattas ie were rated pretty fair then that gets your list narrowed down.

 

If the Xboat is a possibility I'd probably put the Elan 333 and the B-boats in a bucket together and run the numbers on them to see which one's have the higher performing numbers which will probably leave you with 2 strong contenders and maybe a 3rd as a back up possibility. All of those are going to be far drier and better cabin functionality over the Jboats that fall into the same price range are smaller given Jboat prices LOL



#9 Sebyseb

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:14 PM

What's a Projection 960? Google doesn't turn up anything..

It's a mix between a projection 762 and a JPK 960!

Seriously, a J /92 would do the trick, or a First Class 10 will leave lots for sails and docking (hard to single hand though)' pogo does well under HN, but not IRC.

Could look at Mustang 30 or Sigma 33 too.

#10 Autograph

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:17 PM

Figaro

Sun fast 3200

J105

#11 Bulbhunter

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:06 PM

Sunfast 3200 was sorta what I was thinking also. Its the closest thing to the short handed approach that lands in the price range all the other options have more negatives from what I can sort out at that price range.



#12 Pelle

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:44 AM

Thanks for the input guys. Always good to hear other peoples ideas. Some comments....Id' love a Sunfast 3200 but as far as I have seen the asking prices are far out of my budget (by 50% at least). Sure its a buyers market but that much? I've looked hard at a few older J/105's that could possibly be had within budget but they needed a lot of maintenance and upgrades and ended up well above budget. The 105 is also a larger boat (than I need) so the expense in maintaining it will be considerably larger. I was not aware of the Grand Surprise which looks nice but if J/92 is wet a Surprise must be soaking....would have benefited from 10 cm more freeboard. This brings me to the FC10 which is an another nice boat. I've done a lot of miles on my mates FC10 and we had a fair bit of success in DH-racing with it including winning the biggest DH race (Bohusracet) in these parts overall in 2012 but I feel done with that boat and also other older C/R-types which while nice in a way doesn't really interest me. I may need to get my head examined though :ph34r:  :) . Interesting to hear that the POGO does reasonably well under HN. IRC seems to think that a POGO 8.50 is (about) 1% faster than a J/92 while HN thinks it is 3% slower. We use a national swedish rating system that usually give ratings that are comparable to IRC but seems to rate the one Pogo we have racing in Sweden more like HN. 



#13 LeoV

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:18 AM

Your 50 K and born after 00 is a tough one :)

 

If you can get it too 80 for a nice newish boat, JPK 960.

 

Cheaper but 90 ish, I am always curious about the performace of the Sunwind 30, with deep keel, and add an bowsprit...



#14 Dino

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:10 PM

J35 is long in the tooth but very competitive in IRC offshore 2 handed.

Beneteau 31.7, Sunfast 32, Dehler optima 101, X302, all very good IRC boats.

Avoid the beneteau first class 10 and Europe, they don't rate.

#15 Bulbhunter

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:59 PM

J35 is long in the tooth but very competitive in IRC offshore 2 handed.

Beneteau 31.7, Sunfast 32, Dehler optima 101, X302, all very good IRC boats.

Avoid the beneteau first class 10 and Europe, they don't rate.

Funny you mention the Dehler Optima we have a pretty active guy around here that sails one does Ok. Boat looks like its almost built for solo sailors. I couldn't recall what it was till I spotted your post.



#16 micha571

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:21 AM

What about a JOD35? Not from this century, but easily within the price range and perfect for short handed racing.

#17 cms

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:04 AM

Oops, typo, Projection 962.

What's a Projection 960? Google doesn't turn up anything..



#18 cms

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:08 AM

Agree that JOD 35 worth considering. Grand Surprise gets caned by IRC.

 

Original J/92 has better protection that the J/92s.



#19 Sebyseb

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:16 PM

105 is a better DH boat than the JOD35 which was designed for the Tour de France and needs a lot rail meat.

 

Despite the hate in the US, boats like Diablo J and Voador did extremely well in the RORC double-handed (possibly winning a Fastnet DH?) but it's 3.35 wide and still wet!

 

In Cherbourg, "Jour de Fête" a J/92 did very well in the RORC and local races, the owner sold for a JPK 10.10 (one hell of a boat for your program).

 

Or you could get your hands on the very rare JPK 998 which was designed for the tour de France (M34 won the bid), it's is 2.99 wide with 50% in the bulb, 2.7 tons for 30 feet... Not much inside but damn it looks fast on paper!

http://www.jpk.fr/?titre=jpk-998&mode=voilier_jpk&id=98 

 

JPK 960 available for 79K, might be worth an offer, because there's no better boat for your program at this price

http://m.annoncesbat...nce-605849.html



#20 Pelle

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:19 PM

I'm definitely not into a JOD 35. There are a couple of them racing in southern sweden and I'm not impressed. A bit too big also. I'd prefer somthing around 30' to keep running costs down. I do like that JPK960...just have to rob the bank or buy a lottery ticket or something... :D



#21 Sebyseb

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:59 AM

Indeed;

Big week end of racing week on the French side of the channel, a First Class 10 hammered the competition including JPK 9.60 and 10.10 (including the Fastnet and RTIR winners), XP 33, A31, etc...



#22 cms

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:20 AM

Cruising in a J/92 is not comfortable - lack of headroom, minimal galley etc.



#23 Bulbhunter

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

I'm definitely not into a JOD 35. There are a couple of them racing in southern sweden and I'm not impressed. A bit too big also. I'd prefer somthing around 30' to keep running costs down. I do like that JPK960...just have to rob the bank or buy a lottery ticket or something... :D

LOL forgot about the random First 10 that B boats built. Conditions must have just right for them given typically the 10 has not really done that well.



#24 jackdaw

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:28 PM

I'm definitely not into a JOD 35. There are a couple of them racing in southern sweden and I'm not impressed. A bit too big also. I'd prefer somthing around 30' to keep running costs down. I do like that JPK960...just have to rob the bank or buy a lottery ticket or something... :D

LOL forgot about the random First 10 that B boats built. Conditions must have just right for them given typically the 10 has not really done that well.

 

Not exactly random, they built over 100 of them. And they have always done well in IRC. Just an older boat.



#25 Bulbhunter

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:34 PM

 

I'm definitely not into a JOD 35. There are a couple of them racing in southern sweden and I'm not impressed. A bit too big also. I'd prefer somthing around 30' to keep running costs down. I do like that JPK960...just have to rob the bank or buy a lottery ticket or something... :D

LOL forgot about the random First 10 that B boats built. Conditions must have just right for them given typically the 10 has not really done that well.

 

Not exactly random, they built over 100 of them. And they have always done well in IRC. Just an older boat.

100 really? LOL in B boat numbers that would be an accounting mistake. LOL



#26 stealingisacrime

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

Anyone look at the Pacer 310 sprint?  Saw one on Yachtworld for 59k GBP.   

Also Benny 34.7 - the big wheel is tough though...



#27 Mexican

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 11:27 PM

 

 

I'm definitely not into a JOD 35. There are a couple of them racing in southern sweden and I'm not impressed. A bit too big also. I'd prefer somthing around 30' to keep running costs down. I do like that JPK960...just have to rob the bank or buy a lottery ticket or something... :D

LOL forgot about the random First 10 that B boats built. Conditions must have just right for them given typically the 10 has not really done that well.

 

Not exactly random, they built over 100 of them. And they have always done well in IRC. Just an older boat.

100 really? LOL in B boat numbers that would be an accounting mistake. LOL

 

Bulbhunter, I think we need to host a "LOL intervention" for you. The first step is to admit you have a problem...

 

Mex



#28 Bulbhunter

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 11:34 PM

 

 

 

I'm definitely not into a JOD 35. There are a couple of them racing in southern sweden and I'm not impressed. A bit too big also. I'd prefer somthing around 30' to keep running costs down. I do like that JPK960...just have to rob the bank or buy a lottery ticket or something... :D

LOL forgot about the random First 10 that B boats built. Conditions must have just right for them given typically the 10 has not really done that well.

 

Not exactly random, they built over 100 of them. And they have always done well in IRC. Just an older boat.

100 really? LOL in B boat numbers that would be an accounting mistake. LOL

 

Bulbhunter, I think we need to host a "LOL intervention" for you. The first step is to admit you have a problem...

 

Mex

HA HA HA HA AHHHHHH is that better?

 

No really 100 boats? Wow



#29 sonofasailor4x

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:08 AM

Not sure what your budget is, but I'd look at an Elan 320; http://www.elan-yach...e/elan-320.html or the prior 310.  I have a Elan 31S an 80s version and it's a great boat, not known in the US, but well regarded in Europe - well engineered and well built. There's a dealer in the US who provides good support.  



#30 Bulbhunter

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:53 PM

Not sure what your budget is, but I'd look at an Elan 320; http://www.elan-yach...e/elan-320.html or the prior 310.  I have a Elan 31S an 80s version and it's a great boat, not known in the US, but well regarded in Europe - well engineered and well built. There's a dealer in the US who provides good support.  

I suggested the Elan's back a page or so I agree based on what I saw and was told they seemed to have a little more attention to detail and more focus on sailing capability than the B-boats. Those that I spoke with that had them all said the same thing that they were quite good on the sailing side given the interiors they had etc.

 

Also the designers who have penned them both the pre Humphreys boats and the post Humphreys are pretty well respected boats.



#31 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 10:26 PM

get a thoroughbred performer rather than the production c/rs

 

get a Mumm 30 and do the interior

 

in lightweight Boeing type nomex veneered panelling

 

the money to do the interior might come from the sail budget, there should be enough real good 'pre loved' racing sails around after years of Tour racing

 

how much is a Figaro ? 



#32 micha571

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:29 AM

There is a used one in Spain up for sale for 65k euros right now. And another one in Belgium, same price.

#33 cms

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 03:00 PM

Duh .... who is designing Elans "post Humphreys"??? Don't spread that rumour in Lymington! Rob, and now Tom have been the "house" designers for quite a while and penned all the current range.



#34 jetfuel

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:51 PM

 

I'm definitely not into a JOD 35. There are a couple of them racing in southern sweden and I'm not impressed. A bit too big also. I'd prefer somthing around 30' to keep running costs down. I do like that JPK960...just have to rob the bank or buy a lottery ticket or something... :D

LOL forgot about the random First 10 that B boats built. Conditions must have just right for them given typically the 10 has not really done that well.

 

Not exactly random, they built over 100 of them. And they have always done well in IRC. Just an older boat.

They sail very well and they get hammered with their IRC rating because they have runners and check stays Their PHRF ratings are much more favourable. 

Same as my Figaro. Beacause of the runners my IRC rating sucks. In IRC i owe time to boats that owe me 10-20 seconds per mile in PHRF



#35 silversailor

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:42 PM

A great cruiser/racer is the 32' Hanse.  Look for post 2005 models.  Don't know how they price out but they can sail to their numbers and better.  You may not be first to the finsish line but you will correct over many other boats.



#36 andrewmc

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:34 AM

maree haute - 770 - to small? the OR770 or the 950's they offer might be worth looking at?

 

worth talking to Luc, very helpful



#37 bladerunnerSWE

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:36 AM

we might have a corby29 for sale if you're still into that



#38 andyxs

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 08:10 AM

you seen the red corby 29 on Johns website? already been set up for short handed with new sails and a prodder.






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