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Spindrift 2 (ex BP5) Route of Discovery attempt


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#1 umpire

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

Spindrift 2 is waiting for a weather window and looking to beat F Cammas's record.

 

http://www.spindrift...by-in-portimao/



#2 Corley_

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 02:35 AM

They could go in the next 24 hours:

 

http://www.spindrift...-sur-le-depart/



#3 Corley_

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:41 PM

Looks like it will be Wednesday or Thursday now:

 

http://www.spindrift...uelques-heures/



#4 Corley_

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:50 AM

The team have tweeted that they have departed Portimao and are on their way to Cadiz with a start around 2pm - 6pm UTC



#5 umpire

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:37 PM

They are off and running. Great to this monster strutting its stuff again.

#6 Corley_

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:31 PM

Tracker is here and it looks like they have had a good start:

 

http://spindrift2-de....addviso.org/en



#7 umpire

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:15 AM

Latest news from the boat

 

There is no time for a warm-up lap for Dona Bertarelli and Yan Guichard’s maxi trimaran Spindrift 2 in the attempt to beat the Discovery Route record. From the start, the largest racing trimaran in the world has frequently averaged speeds over thirty knots, enjoying the good north wind that has established of the Moroccan coast.

 
The track record for the first 17 hours of the race reflects the formidable efficiency of the boat and its 14-man (and woman) crew, as the long starboard tack taken last night by the giant multihull east of Madeira had this morning placed them almost 180 miles “virtually” ahead of Groupama 3, the distance record holder. A first gybe, a heavy manoeuvre to change tack was performed shortly after 5:00 am, allowing Dona and Yann from this point to trace an almost direct course, always clear and at high speed toward Gran Canaria, compulsory course mark; the main island of the Canary Islands but be left to starboard, following the same historic route taken by Columbus in the late 15th century. Comparisons stop there – for what took the legendary Genoese navigator’s three caravels more than 6 days to reach Las Palmas, could take Spindrift 2 under 24 hours, if they reach the archipelago tonight. It seems a double gybe will be needed to slip in between Fuerteventura in the east and Gran Canaria to the right, with a bracing wind of over 20 knots from the north-northeast.
 
The initial part of the transatlantic course could therefore continue at a fast pace. We have the trade winds, and if the sea state allows for an orderly regular swell, the incredible potential of Spindrift 2 should continue showing the high numbers on the speedometer. The first identified weather obstacle comes in the form of areas of transition that will need to be carefully negotiated.
 
News from on board:
The first night went well. We had more wind than expected under a beautiful starry sky with no moon. It is beginning to get wet. There have had some good peaks at 44 knots in a rough starboard cross sea. It is pretty difficult to helm and to sleep too!
The sun is rising and we have just put a reef in.
Dona

At 09:45hrs GMT this morning Spindrift has a 180.33 miles lead on the current record time.


#8 Mojounwin

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:15 PM

Crossing oceans at 44kts. I wonder what speeds the next 50 years will bring.

 

Cheers

Mojo



#9 Corley_

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:41 AM



#10 umpire

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:51 AM

Smoking just like the JV record. Shame the didn't buzz that yacht like BP5 did.



#11 Keith

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:22 PM

Great clip.... shes an awesome machine..



#12 umpire

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 09:39 AM



Saturday October 2nd 2013


MAXI SPINDRIFT 2
Day 3 - Readjustments...


Following three days of exhilarating racing, Spindrift 2 is due to be on the theoretical mid-point of the Discovery Route. The lead over the record time set in 2007 by the maxi trimaran Groupama 3 increased last night to over 280 miles. Today the lead has gone down to under 230 miles due to the extra tacks and manoevuers carried out by Dona Bertarelli, Yann Guichard and the crew of 12. "The aim is to sail as close to the wind as possible, in order to avoid getting too close to the centre of the high-pressure area where the winds are lighter, Yann Guichard said. Spindrift 2 opts for sailing at a 90 ° angle to the course to plunge into the strong north-easterly flow blowing in the direction of the West Indies. "It's always a little frustrating not to sail the direct course but that's part of the game. We have a small lead that allows us this luxury. These readjustments are needed in order to skilfully negotiate the trade winds. After a few hours of sailing a straight course south, we will once again head west. We have made good progress since the Canaries, close to the optimal course, and we will certainly follow this course at least once more after sailing on a starboard tack, which we will be doing shortly. "

The flash speeds remain high, but gains on the direct course are falling to just 4 or 6 knots. This is a necessary strategy, which should pay off later on for Spindrift 2 when they go on to head for San Salvador. Groupama 3 too had to go through a similar situation back in 2007 and use the same strategy. Changing tack on a downwind course takes time and must be done with care. Each manoeuvre must be planned and requires the full crews efforts. We are constantly trimming the sails depending on the wind angle and the sea state, explains Yann. We manage to keep the average speeds over 30 knots which means we have to keep adjust the sail plan and trim as the trade winds change. We went through the Canaries with 3 reefs in the main sail and the storm sail up when we had around 30 knots of wind, continues Yann. We alternate between combinations of 2 reefs, then one reef and solent or gennaker. The ballast helped us to get the bows through the rough seas yesterday. We had a few squalls overnight and did have quite a bit to do in order avoid finding ourselves surprised with having too much sail up."

This is how Spindrift performs best, being guided and cared for by the crew as they make their way westwards. The mood on board is excellent; a combination of concentration and good humour. We are barely half way across, reminds Guichard. We have two difficult things to face, firstly the trough, the area of light wind which we are going to have to reach on port tack, before gybing and which we hope to get passed as well as possible. Erwan Israel is keeping an eye on the squall. Then we have the passage of a small storm tomorrow afternoon to handle well. The crew are constantly preoccupied with keeping check on the material. The boat is sailing fast on a sea that has slightly calmed to about 1.5 metre waves and so this obviously puts stress on the material. We have no major issues or breaksi to report, but some material to change before it does break. Alone in the middle of the Atlantic, Spindrift 2 continues on the chase the record. We have not seen a single cargo ship since the Canary Islands continues Yann, just a couple of birds. We are all making the most of enjoying this race and adventure, especially Dona who has enjoyed helming on these great days of trade winds

Message from the board :
Good morning everyone. The third evening started with an amazing golden sunset. The waves crashing on the floaters just broke up into thousands of golden droplets like sequins. Spindrift 2 has never looked more beautiful. Chasing a very intense squall overnight followed this. The crew played cat and mouse in the black night. Yann and Erwan took turns to watch the radar and satellite images on the screen to anticipate when to put in or take out a reef.
The wind would shift from 10 to 30 knots and has given the crew a bit of respite. The one little luxury is that the sea state has improved making life undeniably more comfortable on board.
You still the surprise wave crashing over the coach and showering the whole cockpit though. The foul weather gear and boots stay on!
More tomorrow,
Dona

At 9:30hrs GMT this morning Spindrift has a 194.76 miles lead on the current record time.

Last video from received from the board


Crew of the maxi Spindrift 2 for The Discovery Route :

Dona Bertarelli

Yann Guichard

Xavier Revil

Jean Baptiste le Vaillant

Antoine Carraz

Thierry Douillard

Christophe Espagnon

Sébastien Marsset

Nicolas Texier

Erwan Tabarly

François Morvan

Thomas Rouxel

Simone Gaeta

Erwan Israel

Weather routing : Richard Silvani

Time to beat : 7 jours, 10 heures, 58 minutes, 53 secondes

#13 Keith

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:25 PM

Looks like they have some light airs coming their way....



#14 Corley_

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:15 PM

Less than a 1000 miles to go and well ahead of record time:

 

http://youtu.be/QvhFL9jPRJY

 

 

 



#15 Keith

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:29 AM

smoking along, 30 knots, 120 miles to go..  



#16 Corley_

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:46 AM

New reference time for the Discovery Route set by maxi trimaran Spindrift 2 is 6 Days, 14 hours, 29 minutes, 21 seconds



#17 tekwa

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:57 AM

Have they made any significant mods to the boat?



#18 umpire

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:09 AM


New reference time for the Discovery Route set by maxi trimaran Spindrift 2 is 6 Days, 14 hours, 29 minutes, 21 seconds


Another record for this incredible boat.

#19 Corley_

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:02 AM

Have they made any significant mods to the boat?

Initially when they purchased the boat they were going to do extensive modification but I recall reading later that they found that the boat was well set up.  A smaller rig is a possibility if they go ahead with the idea of Yann Guichard soloing the boat in the Route du Rhum 2014



#20 joey g

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:36 PM

Where is the boat headed now?



#21 Icedtea

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:59 PM

If Yann solos the boat and makes it in one piece he'll be hailed as a God.



#22 flojo

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 01:01 PM

Going back, trying to break the 24h record, which stands at 908 nautical miles (BP5, ex Spindrift 2).

 

Max speed on Route of Discovery was 46.08 nautical miles.



#23 Icedtea

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 01:27 PM

How fast do you think this thing could set it? I think in absolute best conditions it'd be 950 miles. 

 

1000 mile days are a bit off yet



#24 Keith

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 04:12 PM

This is the present record...

 

 

2009 "Banque Populaire 5 131 ft Tri, Pascal Bidegorry FRA, 908.2nm 37.84 kts 



#25 samc99us

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 05:22 PM

Very mpressive and congratulations to the entire Spindrift 2 team. This type of record setting has me asking are we at the limits of where more conventional/"established" technology can take the best sailors in the world? Can Spindrift 2/ ex BP 5 average 41.7kts over 24 hours and shatter her previous record by nearly 100 miles? I.e, are the top speeds reported during a surf down a wave?



#26 Icedtea

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:56 PM

I think on the RTW they recorded 47knots max over the whole trip. 

No way could that be sustained though



#27 GauchoGreg

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:32 PM

In the future, with full-foiling, could a revolutionary G-Class boat get up out of the waves enough to sustain high enough speeds where they could actually take a longer route, giving the ice fields more room to be safer, as well as chasing more advantageous weather, and knock significantly more time off the RTW record?  Given the same concerns as the AC has with cavitation, can they get up and foil at high speeds for significant duration on the open ocean?



#28 tekwa

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:47 PM

In the future, with full-foiling, could a revolutionary G-Class boat get up out of the waves enough to sustain high enough speeds where they could actually take a longer route, giving the ice fields more room to be safer, as well as chasing more advantageous weather, and knock significantly more time off the RTW record?  Given the same concerns as the AC has with cavitation, can they get up and foil at high speeds for significant duration on the open ocean?

Also AC72 was lot lighter than G class can ever be and loads on foil bearings were huge,"fuel"(human power) consumption was enormus and it still did not foil under some 10knt of wind. Think we are still decades away foiling RTW attempt.



#29 eastern motors

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 03:13 AM

In the future, with full-foiling, could a revolutionary G-Class boat get up out of the waves enough to sustain high enough speeds where they could actually take a longer route, giving the ice fields more room to be safer, as well as chasing more advantageous weather, and knock significantly more time off the RTW record?  Given the same concerns as the AC has with cavitation, can they get up and foil at high speeds for significant duration on the open ocean?

Also AC72 was lot lighter than G class can ever be and loads on foil bearings were huge,"fuel"(human power) consumption was enormus and it still did not foil under some 10knt of wind. Think we are still decades away foiling RTW attempt.

Wasn't Hydroptère going to do the transpac but dropped out due to too much garbage in the Pacific?

 

Human power shouldn't be a problem when you can use leg power (bicycles) and don't have to tack/gybe very often.



#30 trimariner

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 03:40 PM

Hard to imagine any other existing yacht knocking this new record off any time soon! Everything came together so perfectly and she looks beautifull in the new livery. Congratulations to Captains Donna and Yann and all the crew, ashore and afloat.



#31 Mash

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 04:41 PM

Spindrift just announced that, amongst other things, Y. Guichard was indeed planning on soloing the beast in the next Route du Rhum. That's...ballsy, I'd say.

 

M - http://www.spindrift...tious-new-year/



#32 Joan Pons Semelis

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:04 PM

It looks like too much time has passed since Royale 2 capsized and Loïc Caradec disapeared from a catamaran that every body else thought to be over powered and to big for soloing.

The wing mast that could not wheather vane was probably the main culprit, but the main question is still whether you can reef or not when you need to.



#33 DtM

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:36 AM

Hard to imagine any other existing yacht knocking this new record off any time soon! Everything came together so perfectly and she looks beautifull in the new livery. Congratulations to Captains Donna and Yann and all the crew, ashore and afloat.

Almost happened single handed !!!!!

#34 umpire

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 11:10 AM

More on the solo attempt

 

http://www.spindrift...g-the-decision/



#35 umpire

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:29 AM

Attached File  scow-bow.jpg   316.89K   56 downloads

Just saw this picture on the FP of an IMOCA 60 in the shed at CDK and then realised that its between two of Spindrit 2's hulls. Loook at the white, black and gold hulls either side. Just shows how big that fucker is!

 

 

 

 

 



#36 Laurent

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 01:57 PM


An interesting article on www.courseaularge.com on the progress of the conversion of Spindrift into a single handed monster machine... Following the first article, posted by "Umpire" on post #34, a second video is available here; with English subtitles.

Title of this Episode 2: "La Job List", in perfect Frenglish....

There are some mistakes in the subtitles.... What they call u-bolts are actually chainplates...


The article reveals some pretty interesting design points of view and technical choices... See below.


The boat will be in the boat yard, with 20 people working on it, for 4 months...
They are modifying for both single handed and crewed sailing, since they want to try to beat the North Atlantic record from Ambrose Light to Cape Lizard... and of course the Route du Rhum.

Since they are trying to topple records already held by this boat, they have to optimize it... This is also a way to get ready for the Jules Vernes Trophy, the main objective of the whole program...

They are shortening the mast by 6 meters, to make the boat easier to handle for a solo sailor (I am still pondering if the term "easier" is appropriate for anything related to single handling a 40 m trimaran...).

So it means 20% less sail area, but also a lighter boat: no more big gennaker, which cannot be used in solo sailing anyway, and you do not need it for sailing in North Atlantic at the time of the record (200 kg less). Same thing for the "solent" (staysail, in English?...): 300 kg less.

They also removed the mast tilting system, to bring the rig to windward. When single handed, you are sailing with the main hull in the water anyway (meaning not at the tipping point of the sailing capability of the boat, where every optimization counts), so it is a heavy system for almost no gain in solo racing...
For the North Atlantic record, crewed, since almost all the crossing is on the same tack, they can tilt the mast before the start, in a fixed position, and keep it that way for the whole crossing!
The removal of the whole hydraulic system for the mast tilting function is another 400 kg gain...

For the Route du Rhum, they will keep 2 grinders only, one on each side; the bike will come back, to use legs.

The auto pilots are the key component for solo racing; here as well, they decided to use a different system. The boat is apparently to big to use hydraulic cylinders, but because it is really big, it is also really stable; so there are actually little correction/adjustments to be made on course. So they will use regular motors with a system designed by the team, they tested it on the return trip from Miami, and it is working very well. (the description is - intentionally - vague... I think that they do not want to say too much on this point. My understanding is that they will use electric motors to steer the boat, but I do not have anymore detail than that from the article...)

Last but not least, for safety reasons, in solo racing, the skipper will stay on deck all the time: so Yann will live outside, under the coachroof; he will have all the controls, electronics, navigation aids at his finger tip; and his bunk right there as well...



So I guess it is just going to be like a Weta, just a touch bigger...

#37 QBF

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 06:17 PM

I recall an interview with Pascal Bidégorry (the original skipper of BP 5) that was conducted shortly after, the then, Banque Populaire V was launched.

 

The interviewer asked Bidégorry if he was going to sail BPV solo. Mr. Bidégorry told the interviewer that it took 8-crewmen, 15-minutes to hoist the mainsail.

What's next? A multihull version of Club Méditerranée?

See the Attached image of Club Med at the start of the 1976 OSTAR.

Race committees need to hit the breaks before someone, other than the racing skippers get hurt.
 

Attached Files



#38 edouard

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 09:23 PM

....


So I guess it is just going to be like a Weta, just a touch bigger...

 

Or rather:

- If the weather is similar to 2010 (i.e. minimal maneuvers and no tough weather) he will win and be a "hero". (As Camas was four years ago)

- otherwise he will have "proven" that a 40m tri is just too big for one person.

 

in both case it's not a solo race in my view since land based navigation is allowed (and therefore mandatory).

 

I recall an interview with Pascal Bidégorry (the original skipper of BP 5) that was conducted shortly after, the then, Banque Populaire V was launched.

 

The interviewer asked Bidégorry if he was going to sail BPV solo. Mr. Bidégorry told the interviewer that it took 8-crewmen, 15-minutes to hoist the mainsail.

What's next? A multihull version of Club Méditerranée?

See the Attached image of Club Med at the start of the 1976 OSTAR.

Race committees need to hit the breaks before someone, other than the racing skippers get hurt.
 

 

Spindrift 2 IS a multihull version of Alain Colas' Club Med.

 

Since I don't see who would be hurt other than the skipper (at least not more than any other solo driven vessel) I am fine with at least one "no limits" ocean race on the calendar as long as the wannabe heroes face whatever is thrown at them.

 

What I don't want to see is the start being postponed because of "unfavorable weather" so that the richest couple in town can show off in another carefully scripted, and very well produced, video.

 

To be honest, I hope there will be a "shitstorm ahead" forecast and the race committee sticks to its guns with the start date and time. Nothing like a bunch of expensive machinery cautiously in port  or recklesly destroyed at see to beat some sense into sponsors about the wisdom of such a formula.



#39 Laurent

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:25 AM

....


So I guess it is just going to be like a Weta, just a touch bigger...

 
Or rather:
- If the weather is similar to 2010 (i.e. minimal maneuvers and no tough weather) he will win and be a "hero". (As Camas was four years ago)
- otherwise he will have "proven" that a 40m tri is just too big for one person.

I was a bit sarcastic.
Actually, I am torn between being completely at awe with the endeavor and calling it completely foolish...

Agreed on the possible outcomes...



#40 Keith

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:43 AM

....


So I guess it is just going to be like a Weta, just a touch bigger...

 

Or rather:

- If the weather is similar to 2010 (i.e. minimal maneuvers and no tough weather) he will win and be a "hero". (As Camas was four years ago)

- otherwise he will have "proven" that a 40m tri is just too big for one person.

 

in both case it's not a solo race in my view since land based navigation is allowed (and therefore mandatory).

 

>I recall an interview with Pascal Bidégorry (the original skipper of BP 5) that was conducted shortly after, the then, Banque Populaire V was launched.

 

The interviewer asked Bidégorry if he was going to sail BPV solo. Mr. Bidégorry told the interviewer that it took 8-crewmen, 15-minutes to hoist the mainsail.

What's next? A multihull version of Club Méditerranée?

See the Attached image of Club Med at the start of the 1976 OSTAR.

Race committees need to hit the breaks before someone, other than the racing skippers get hurt.
 

 

Spindrift 2 IS a multihull version of Alain Colas' Club Med.

 

Since I don't see who would be hurt other than the skipper (at least not more than any other solo driven vessel) I am fine with at least one "no limits" ocean race on the calendar as long as the wannabe heroes face whatever is thrown at them.

 

What I don't want to see is the start being postponed because of "unfavorable weather" so that the richest couple in town can show off in another carefully scripted, and very well produced, video.

 

To be honest, I hope there will be a "shitstorm ahead" forecast and the race committee sticks to its guns with the start date and time. Nothing like a bunch of expensive machinery cautiously in port  or recklesly destroyed at see to beat some sense into sponsors about the wisdom of such a formula.

 

 

OK, In your opinion,  what is the maximum size multihull a person can race solo ?



#41 QBF

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:18 PM

 

....


So I guess it is just going to be like a Weta, just a touch bigger...

 

Or rather:

- If the weather is similar to 2010 (i.e. minimal maneuvers and no tough weather) he will win and be a "hero". (As Camas was four years ago)

- otherwise he will have "proven" that a 40m tri is just too big for one person.

 

in both case it's not a solo race in my view since land based navigation is allowed (and therefore mandatory).

 

>I recall an interview with Pascal Bidégorry (the original skipper of BP 5) that was conducted shortly after, the then, Banque Populaire V was launched.

 

The interviewer asked Bidégorry if he was going to sail BPV solo. Mr. Bidégorry told the interviewer that it took 8-crewmen, 15-minutes to hoist the mainsail.

What's next? A multihull version of Club Méditerranée?

See the Attached image of Club Med at the start of the 1976 OSTAR.

Race committees need to hit the breaks before someone, other than the racing skippers get hurt.

 

 

Spindrift 2 IS a multihull version of Alain Colas' Club Med.

 

Since I don't see who would be hurt other than the skipper (at least not more than any other solo driven vessel) I am fine with at least one "no limits" ocean race on the calendar as long as the wannabe heroes face whatever is thrown at them.

 

What I don't want to see is the start being postponed because of "unfavorable weather" so that the richest couple in town can show off in another carefully scripted, and very well produced, video.

 

To be honest, I hope there will be a "shitstorm ahead" forecast and the race committee sticks to its guns with the start date and time. Nothing like a bunch of expensive machinery cautiously in port  or recklesly destroyed at see to beat some sense into sponsors about the wisdom of such a formula.

 

OK, In your opinion,  what is the maximum size multihull a person can race solo ?

 

 

One that a skipper can actually sail, not just steer. The OSTAR committee reduced the max size because Club Méditerranée was quite capable of sinking another boat if it hit it.

 

Spindrift 2, though made of carbon, cruises at 30+ knots. I don't see Mr. Guichard being able to suddenly turn his Maxi by himself if a boat should suddenly appear in front of him.

 

As I stated elsewhere, and I repeat: The skippers sailing these boats are obviously the some of the best sailors in the world, and they are extraordinarily talented. However, they are not the only ones out there on the ocean, and this "Hey, look at me sailing this huge thing by myself" attitude could possibly cost someone other than the solo skipper their life.



#42 Keith

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:35 PM

So, QBF, if I follow your thinking on this, Is Mr Joyons, Idec and Mr Covilles, Sodebo, also too big to be "sailed" by one person?
 
Also, are these two ocean racers saying, as you wrote " Hey, look at me sailing this huge thing by myself".   (I truly doubt any of them are saying anything like that.)
 
I believe these multihull ocean racers, will race what ever size of trimaran, that they believe, they can handle. 
 
I would have to ask then, if you have the same accumulated ocean miles, on any of these awesome racing designs, if so, then your opinion would be from an hands on point of view. Is it?
 
Of course, a solo racing sailor, will never be able to push or control a high performance multihull too her full 100% potential, like a full crew can and will do, or keep as good a look out as a fully crewed boat.
 
Didn't some guy in a 40' sail boat, on San Francisco bay, run right smack into the side of the 289' fully crewed Maltese Falcon?  Shit happens.
 
I hope these people, continue to race what ever size boat they believe they can handle. Its what they do. 

#43 diggler

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:46 PM

Keith, don't be a dick. You ask for opinions and then attack the one response you get because you don't agree with it?? You don't need thousands of miles on a maxi multihull to make some simple observations based on physics, such as the fact Spindrift 2 is on a COMPLETELY different scale to Idec and Sodebo, as and such has much more kinetic energy and much less maneuverability/adaptability in the hands of one guy. It is quite easy to see that at some point, this trend does result in more risk to other mariners than to the skippers themselves. Personally, I think Spindrift 2 in solo mode crosses that line, but that is based solely on Franck's accounts from the last Rhum (which was very benign in terms of weather) on the significantly lighter and more nimble Groupama 3. Whether my opinion is correct remains to be seen, and like you I eagerly look forward to seeing these guys continue to push the limits. As I've said before, I just hope no one gets killed.



#44 Keith

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 06:34 PM

Fair enough, But no one came back with a size that's too big too sail. Only a vague statement about not sailing her, just steering.

 

I also think, its a pretty low shot too say these professional sailors are just saying "look at me". Sorry I just dont think so.

 

Here is some of the sizes of the tris out there doing it.

 

Idec, 29.70M

 

Sodebo, 31.00M

 

Sodebo, ultimate 34.00 M

 

BPVII, 31.50 M

 

Spindrift 2, 40.00 M

 

I would suggest that, before Idec and Sodebo went solo round the world most people would have thought these tris were too big as well. 

Without these sailors pushing the edge, we wouldn't have a 57.5 day round the world solo record. We also wouldn't know where the line is between too much boat and not enough.

 

I suggest we let the professionals race what they want, and not take cheap shots at their amazing effort.  



#45 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:16 PM

Better yet, if you think the boats are too big, tell us what your experience is based on so your statement can be evaluated with the proper weight.

 

Whether its 20 feet or 200 feet or anywhere in the middle, someone will always say "Oh Nos! It's too dangerous!"

 

The French navy is happy to pick up casualties, getting rid of the usual 'it's expensive to save lives' argument, and the sponsors may not be happy but their marketing departments are not usually all broken up when there is a big rescue, especially since most of the time, the boat can be recovered even after losing a float or a nasty capsize/dismasting and the exposure from a big wreck is as good, if not better than, the exposure from a record run.

 

A death would be tragic, but everyone knows what they are signing up for when they leave the dock on one of those things.  And like most of these guys, if Yann is going to die, he'll want to die while pushing the boundaries of human limits on the baddest motherfucking sailboat ever built.



#46 prime8

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:00 PM

I understand that the skipper takes his life in his own hands when he heads out there. A more worrisome possibility to me is injury to someone aboard another vessel. At some point we will reach a speed and mass level where a fishing vessel will not generally escape injury free from a collision with a sleeping solo sailor.



#47 diggler

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:15 PM

Fair enough, But no one came back with a size that's too big too sail. Only a vague statement about not sailing her, just steering.

 

I also think, its a pretty low shot too say these professional sailors are just saying "look at me". Sorry I just dont think so.

 

Here is some of the sizes of the tris out there doing it.

 

Idec, 29.70M

 

Sodebo, 31.00M

 

Sodebo, ultimate 34.00 M

 

BPVII, 31.50 M

 

Spindrift 2, 40.00 M

 

I would suggest that, before Idec and Sodebo went solo round the world most people would have thought these tris were too big as well. 

Without these sailors pushing the edge, we wouldn't have a 57.5 day round the world solo record. We also wouldn't know where the line is between too much boat and not enough.

 

I suggest we let the professionals race what they want, and not take cheap shots at their amazing effort.  

 

No cheap shots coming from me, nor denigration of the amazing feats these guys are accomplishing. Merely measured skepticism from an armchair critic. The reality is that when the boats get big enough, it comes down to rolling the dice on the weather you get on the route. Nothing more, nothing less. This is why you haven't gotten a definite answer on what is too big to sail - the answer is it depends, on the variablity of the prevailing weather conditions mainly. For record breaking, this can be made to work quite well, as Armel Le Cléac’h has been demonstrating both in the Med and the Atlantic. A race with a more or less fixed departure date is a different beast. Spindrift, Sodebo Ultime, and probably BPVII are looking for a pretty ideal forecast come start day, otherwise as Yann has stated, the prudent move is to withdraw. Not an easy call to make when so much has been invested in time and money just to get to the start line.

 

Quoting lengths is a little disingenuous though. Displacement and righting moment are the parameters to be looking at in this discussion - these tell you how big a sail plan is needed to realize the potential of the platform in question, and thus how much power the sole human on board needs to be able to output. In an interview somewhere way back before Sodebo was launched, I remember Thomas discussing the philosophy behind the project - basically that the ORMA sail plan was, in his experience, about the biggest that he could manage well, so take that and put it on a longer, less pitchpole prone platform and let her rip. Idec obviously follows much the same approach. Despite the similarity in lengths, no one would mistake BPVII and Sodebo for being similar in design philosophy, power, or physical demands placed on the skipper. 

 

The questions I saw and had regarding Sodebo and Idec in the early stages of those projects had to do with  the ability of a single person to sail such a vessel at a high enough percentage of its potential to actually make it around the world faster than a smaller, easier to sail, but ultimately slower vessel. There never seemed to be much doubt about the ability of a single person to manage one of those boats in terms of boat handling under a broad range of conditions, simply because the scale of the sail plan had been kept to the precedent set by the ORMAs and the platform made more forgiving.



#48 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:52 PM

While I agree that Spindrift is too big to be optimal, after all it's wasn't purpose designed for solo sailing.

 

Doesn't alter the fact that it's there, it exists and the owner is happy to let you try.

 

I would imagine that as soon as the idea popped into his head he knew he wouldn't be able to let it go. Probably spends a fair amount of time regretting he ever thought of it, but now he has he is probably powerless against trying to do it.

 

I think that is how these people are hard wired.



#49 Keith

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:16 PM

Diggler, Sorry, I know you didn't say that. I should have been a little more clear. I completely agree that the sail plan is the most important factor in what can be handled safely by one person. We usually see that, when they re-rig these massive tris with a smaller rig, for solo sailing.

 

Also complexity is an issue, as we see in Idec and sodebo two very similar designs, but at both ends of the complexity scale. Idec is kept very simple, as is Mr. Joyon's sailing philosophy, and Sodebo, Mr. Covilles tri, is very complex, including a canting rig.   From my own cruising experience, I prefer the simpler systems, its much easier to keep it all together, when sailing solo. 



#50 ARIAKE

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:44 PM

http://www.youtube.c...ft - Day 7&sm=3

 

Published on Nov 27, 2013

Covering the course in 6 days, 14 hours, 29 minutes and 21 seconds, Spindrift 2 has set a new record* for the 3,885-mile theoretical route at an average 24.5 knots to break the mark set by Frank Cammas on Groupama 3, by 20 hours, 29 minutes and 32 seconds. Spindrift 2 left Cadiz (Spain) last Wedneday, October 30 at 15:19:34 GMT (16:19:34 Local time).The total actual distance sailed by Spindrift 2 was 4,503 miles at an average 28.4 knots.



#51 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 04:23 PM



#52 Roller Skates

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 05:48 PM

Would like to see a better explanation of the "interesting" nature of the conventional frame vs recumbent. What's the thought process? 



#53 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 06:06 PM

For someone like Yann (or Cammas) who is an experienced road cycler, an upright doesn't require them to train a whole new set of muscles like recumbent position cycles use (more flute, less quad). 

 

Recumbents have two advantages over conventional bikes:  They are better for long range crotch comfort, which won't be an issue here when the longest 'ride' is 20 minutes or half an hour that it takes to get the mainsail up.  And they are better for wind drag, which isn't a factor here. 

 

Therefore, they stick with what they are used to - regular position.



#54 Rasputin22

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 06:33 PM

Funny to see them using those forearm rests and aero inner grips. You would think the the wider drop bars would have more power but I guess it is like you said, use what you are used to. If I had just pedalled until I needed to switch back to grinding, I'm not sure my legs would be ready for a standing grinding position. I think I'd rather stay on the bike and have a set of coffee grinder handles right at the stem and grind those till my legs are ready for more pedalling. Thinking more about this makes me wonder why the paratheletes tricycles use the arm driven cranks in unison. To get the back muscles into action? 



#55 Quagers

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:54 PM

Surely there is a balance issue, a recumbent has to be far easier to stay on in a decent sea state.



#56 RobinC

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 02:07 AM

Surely there is a balance issue, a recumbent has to be far easier to stay on in a decent sea state.

It's awesome they're doing the bicycle thing.  I was going on about this in an AC thread last summer as I'm sure this would have been good there as well. I think if they set some records you'll see a lot more pedal grinders.

 

Regarding pedalling position, a conventional bike is a very dynamic platform if you have even a moderate amount of cycling experience.  Go on youtube and watch any of thousands of mtb freestyle, downhill, trials or BMX videos and see what I mean.  The reason is you can fully use your arms and legs as they were designed to absorb shocks move your centre of gravity and counteract forces, and you have the fifth point of contact, your crotch or inner thighs to reference the seat which actively helps balance and stability without compromising shock absorption  (I could write an extensive essay on this latter point but it's not germane here!)  On a recumbent you limited shock absorbing ability and your arms are generally below you and are not able to be part of the power equation, either resisting being walloped by a wave or pulling down on the bars if you're "sprinting".  Recumbents have a large aerodynamic advantage but are vastly versatile for the rider otherwise.

 

On another point, a friend of mine who is paraplegic, recently attempted to ride from Northern Ontario to Austin Texas on an electric assist hand bike with a trailer featuring solar panels.  It was late in the year and he had weather and tech issues and made it as far as Chicago before having to call it quits.  Interestingly the ultimate problem was that in the recumbent position and with constant dampness, he developed a condition where the skin in your tailbone area starts get badly damaged, like a bed sore I suppose.  I would imagine that if you were in damp sailing gear for several weeks, a regular bike which you can stand up on now and then- or even change the seat to adjust the load point on your bottom, would be a safer bet in this regard.



#57 umpire

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 09:12 AM


Surely there is a balance issue, a recumbent has to be far easier to stay on in a decent sea state.

It's awesome they're doing the bicycle thing.  I was going on about this in an AC thread last summer as I'm sure this would have been good there as well. I think if they set some records you'll see a lot more pedal grinders.
 
Regarding pedalling position, a conventional bike is a very dynamic platform if you have even a moderate amount of cycling experience.  Go on youtube and watch any of thousands of mtb freestyle, downhill, trials or BMX videos and see what I mean.  The reason is you can fully use your arms and legs as they were designed to absorb shocks move your centre of gravity and counteract forces, and you have the fifth point of contact, your crotch or inner thighs to reference the seat which actively helps balance and stability without compromising shock absorption  (I could write an extensive essay on this latter point but it's not germane here!)  On a recumbent you limited shock absorbing ability and your arms are generally below you and are not able to be part of the power equation, either resisting being walloped by a wave or pulling down on the bars if you're "sprinting".  Recumbents have a large aerodynamic advantage but are vastly versatile for the rider otherwise.
 
On another point, a friend of mine who is paraplegic, recently attempted to ride from Northern Ontario to Austin Texas on an electric assist hand bike with a trailer featuring solar panels.  It was late in the year and he had weather and tech issues and made it as far as Chicago before having to call it quits.  Interestingly the ultimate problem was that in the recumbent position and with constant dampness, he developed a condition where the skin in your tailbone area starts get badly damaged, like a bed sore I suppose.  I would imagine that if you were in damp sailing gear for several weeks, a regular bike which you can stand up on now and then- or even change the seat to adjust the load point on your bottom, would be a safer bet in this regard.
Every time the subject of bikes on boats we have the same discussion. As pointed out in previous threads and in this one by Clean, the bike is only used for long grinds I.e main halyard and not for continual use. Also why are we worried about aerodynamics, have you seen Spindrift 2? It's huge and a bike as opposed to a pedastal is going to make fuck all, if any difference at all.

#58 mad

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:17 PM



 



....
So I guess it is just going to be like a Weta, just a touch bigger...

 
Or rather:
- If the weather is similar to 2010 (i.e. minimal maneuvers and no tough weather) he will win and be a "hero". (As Camas was four years ago)
- otherwise he will have "proven" that a 40m tri is just too big for one person.
 
in both case it's not a solo race in my view since land based navigation is allowed (and therefore mandatory).
 
>

>
>I recall an interview with Pascal Bidégorry (the original skipper of BP 5) that was conducted shortly after, the then, Banque Populaire V was launched.
 
The interviewer asked Bidégorry if he was going to sail BPV solo. Mr. Bidégorry told the interviewer that it took 8-crewmen, 15-minutes to hoist the mainsail.What's next? A multihull version of Club Méditerranée?
See the Attached image of Club Med at the start of the 1976 OSTAR.Race committees need to hit the breaks before someone, other than the racing skippers get hurt. 
>

>
 
Spindrift 2 IS a multihull version of Alain Colas' Club Med.
 
Since I don't see who would be hurt other than the skipper (at least not more than any other solo driven vessel) I am fine with at least one "no limits" ocean race on the calendar as long as the wannabe heroes face whatever is thrown at them.
 
What I don't want to see is the start being postponed because of "unfavorable weather" so that the richest couple in town can show off in another carefully scripted, and very well produced, video.
 
To be honest, I hope there will be a "shitstorm ahead" forecast and the race committee sticks to its guns with the start date and time. Nothing like a bunch of expensive machinery cautiously in port  or recklesly destroyed at see to beat some sense into sponsors about the wisdom of such a formula.
 
OK, In your opinion,  what is the maximum size multihull a person can race solo ?
 
 
 
Spindrift 2, though made of carbon, cruises at 30+ knots. I don't see Mr. Guichard being able to suddenly turn his Maxi by himself if a boat should suddenly appear in front of him.
 
As I stated elsewhere, and I repeat: The skippers sailing these boats are obviously the some of the best sailors in the world, and they are extraordinarily talented. However, they are not the only ones out there on the ocean, and this "Hey, look at me sailing this huge thing by myself" attitude could possibly cost someone other than the solo skipper their life.
The Orma 60's could barely do this in solo mode at times, they're were some close calls in the demolition derby that destroyed most of the fleet about 10 years, one almost ran into his capsized competitor in the dark. Those guys have some very serious balls.

In fact any solo boat can be accused of the same thing. It's dependent on so many variables that you can't really use that as a standard.

Jeez, so called fully crewed cargo ships have been known to run into things. In broad daylight!!

#59 umpire

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:47 AM

More from Spindrift Racing on the foils

EPISODE 8 : THE APPENDAGES
If, like Yann Guichard, you started your sailing in the Optimist, you may remember the rudder and the centreboard. They always seemed to be heavy and cumbersome, especially in the winter chill, yet without them, you could not go where you wanted to. If that was a long time ago for Guichard, the skipper of the Spindrift racings team, and if the scale of his new boat is much changed, the appendages are more essential for performance than ever and require as much attention in the effort to handle them. This week in 40 metres solo, the skipper explains how they work.

The maxi trimaran Spindrift 2 has six appendages, the generic term that includes the three rudders, the two foils and the centreboard. Designed by hydrodynamic experts and manufactured by specialists in carbon parts, these appendages are in direct contact with the water and undergo serious strain. To reduce their size and optimise their form in order to decrease drag and weight, without any compromise in reliability: that is the equation that the design office of the Spindrift racing must solve.

Rudders and daggerboards, (almost) like on any boat.
The rudders are used to steer the boat. A sailing trimaran mainly relies on the leeward float. You need a rudder on each side as well as for the central hull, Guichard explains. They are interconnected so that movement in one causes a reaction in the other two.

Positioned around the middle of the central hull, the centreboard weighs between 300 and 400 kilos, the weight of nearly ten Optimists on its own. This part is to control drift. Thats to say, when its in the water it allows us to sail upwind. If it wasnt there, with some wind in the sails, the trimaran would move forward like a crab. Downwind, its up completely, to avoid being slowed down. For the North Atlantic record and especially the Route de Rhum we have a new centreboard, which is optimised, smaller and lighter.

The turbo chargers on Spindrift 2
The foils are the rocket boosters of the modern multihull. With their so-called C shape, these crescents of carbon pass through the floats. From 20 knots on downwind, we put the foil down to accelerate, Guichard says. Its a bit like the effect of the aircraft wing, creating lift, it takes the pressure off the boat, raising it out of the water. It limits the drag as the trimaran picks up speed, exactly like we saw when the Americas Cup AC72 catamarans were flying. Our boat is 23 tonnes and is not quite there yet, but its the same principle. You must use the foils at the right time so you dont generate more drag than lift. Its about finding the balance.

Chasing Perfection
A fan of surfing and a tough competitor, the skipper adds finally: We can gain an extra 3 to 5 knots once we are around 30-32 knots, but the prep work has to be very careful. These parts are in contact with the water at high speed and the smallest holes or defects can cause disruption or even loss of control. The team regularly take the time to polish and make perfect the surfaces of the all the appendages so that they are flawless."




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