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Virbac Paprec MOD 70 Capsize


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#1 Xlot

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:05 PM

This, wind 15-20 kts:

http://www.courseaul...-Belle-Ile.html

The second instance already: seems the class is not that much stabler than ORMAs ..

#2 diggler

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:19 PM

And you drew that well rounded and knowledgeable conclusion from the highly detailed information about the capsize contained in your link, no doubt? 



#3 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:20 PM

I think that's the third one.  Boat is quite a bit less likely to lose it than an ORMA, but shorthanded you are always just one gust away from losing it.

 

My understanding that I got when I covered the MOD launch and interviewed the key players was that the MOD was not going to be used for singlehanding or short handing, and wasn't designed for it...but that the lack of a coherent MOD circuit has pushed the boats into events that they weren't really intended for.



#4 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:01 PM



#5 lars@knup.de

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:04 PM

They just twittered and posted a press release:

http://www.jpdick.co...-paprec-70.html

http://twitter.com/D...8669952/photo/1
http://twitter.com/D...6850049/photo/1
http://twitter.com/D...3724288/photo/1

I think that's the third one.

I know of the spindrift capsize this Summer. Which MOD70 was the third?

Lars

#6 cric

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:12 PM

on their twitter feed, the capsize from inside (they had a cameraman onboard) you also get some audio / no translation necessary

(THey must have been shooting some promo before the transat with cameraman / flag and chopper)

http://www.dailymoti...eo-a-bord_sport



#7 lars@knup.de

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:21 PM

Scary Movies. Ouch!

#8 cric

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:51 PM

Scary Movies. Ouch!

 

yeah, weird flashback of ETNZ last month

 

(thanks for posting the twitter feed, I would have missed it)



#9 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:59 PM

from the inside view you can see how close the chopper is, and he's on the upwind side and very low.  Any chance the downdraft from the rotors could have caused that?  I remember Steve Clark telling me once that "Helicopters are responsible for more C-Class capsizes than anything else."  

 

No idea how much air a helicopter makes, but worth the question



#10 munt

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:59 PM

does anybody with any real knowledge know why these blokes don't seem to blow the sheets before it's too late?  In both the cases I've seen of MOD 70 capsize the sheets seem virtually locked in place...



#11 Liquid

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:04 PM

does anybody with any real knowledge know why these blokes don't seem to blow the sheets before it's too late?  In both the cases I've seen of MOD 70 capsize the sheets seem virtually locked in place...

 

 

Especially with what seemed like a long time to go all the way.  Seemed far slower than the spindrift tip over.

 

As I watched it I thought they would do a ETNZ head fake, but the sheets never went out...



#12 yoda

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:12 PM

Strange - the helmsman has 2 lines to pull at his knee, one to dump the main and the other to dump the rig.  I think also the traveler is on a winch right there.  Looks like nothing was blown?



#13 mikemt

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:12 PM

here the (amazing) video.  clearly one guy is close to the winches and could have eased the sheets...but does not...

 



#14 PIL007

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:30 PM

That could have been a whole lot worse when the guy on the leeward side (assuming he's the camera man) falls in as the mast hits the piss. He could easily been separated from the boat. Then the boat comes down on top of him as the rig lets go. Very lucky guy.
At first I thought no way the chopper effects it but now, not so sure as it happens a bit too quick for natural causes.
Bummer all round.

#15 Xlot

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:57 PM

Yes, odd - iirc the sheet is hydraulic, and there's a red emergency "mushroom" on each side

#16 Keith

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:13 PM

I didn't see any sails that looked to be eased at all.....she just hung there forever......

 

Hope everyone is safe..



#17 Rohanoz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:19 PM

Except that it's unthinkable, by all footage this looks intentional...
Showboating gone wrong.
No way can there be so little apparent effort to avoid it.

#18 Xlot

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:39 PM

Update

http://www.voilesetv...paprec-chavire/

(mast broken in three pieces, gust from aft, eased traveler and jib, Jean-Pierre hit something in the fall and suffered compressed vertebrae?)

#19 glowmaster

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:55 PM

that boat seemed to plead "let my damn main out". if you do I will come back, but they didn't.

 

expensive mistake. I hope everybody is OK; that capsize was not design related. Clearly pilot error.



#20 notallthere

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:10 PM

JPD thought there was a keel?



#21 Liquid

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:26 PM

Update

http://www.voilesetv...paprec-chavire/

(mast broken in three pieces, gust from aft, eased traveler and jib, Jean-Pierre hit something in the fall and suffered compressed vertebrae?)

 

Did they look at their own video?  If the traveler was eased it must have been in another time and dimension...  you know, that parallel universe.



#22 Clipper

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:00 AM

fuck me there are experts on here.

 

Do you really think those guys dont know what they should be doing.



#23 Keith

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:10 AM

Of course they know exactly what their doing, that's why they rarely dump these tris, even on ocean passages, so that why we all ask...

 

What went wrong???



#24 samc99us

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:59 AM

from the inside view you can see how close the chopper is, and he's on the upwind side and very low.  Any chance the downdraft from the rotors could have caused that?  I remember Steve Clark telling me once that "Helicopters are responsible for more C-Class capsizes than anything else."  
 
No idea how much air a helicopter makes, but worth the question

Clean, not a straightforward answer, but you have an above average iq...in short the speed of the air has to be high enough to generate lift=weight. A few other forces come in and essentially lift=2*weight, where the speed of the air is fastest, about 2x rotor length disc diameter below the helicopter. Anyway, since we don't have the weight of the chopper, we can guesstimate similar helio's max air velocity is in the 50 MPH range, if the helicopter was about 60'-100' away from the sailboat. Still could produce a 20 MPH gust up to about 200' away. That actually looks likely based on the video...further supported by no noticeable white cap increase on the water, suggesting the puff was mostly aloft. About to send you a PM on something else heli related.

You have to think SOMEONE mad an attempt to blow the main, ease the traveller...maybe the system failed, or more likely no one could get there without falling...and Virbac isn't going to admit as much with a large insurance check about to be cut

#25 Airwick

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:21 AM

from the inside view you can see how close the chopper is, and he's on the upwind side and very low.  Any chance the downdraft from the rotors could have caused that?  I remember Steve Clark telling me once that "Helicopters are responsible for more C-Class capsizes than anything else."  

 

No idea how much air a helicopter makes, but worth the question

Doesn't look likely from where the chopper is: the apparent wind is way forward and the puff from the chopper would follow the wind (think of what the "dirt" from the chopper would have looked like on the AC graphics)



#26 r.finn

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:03 AM

They used to pitchpole, almost exclusively. Now they just capsize. They're almost getting big tris sorted. AVS happened quickly, and unlike Tnz's near capsize, these guys were not upwind, so their options ran out very fast. It's still the coolest one design in the world.

#27 munt

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:52 AM

looked to me like they had a couple of options AND lots of time.  The helicopter certainly could have been a factor since the ambient wind didn't look strong enough to do that.  If you've ever seen a helo do a low hover over the water you know they generate a huge amount of breeze.  Still mystified as to why in both Mod 70 capsizes there seems to be main AND headsail sheeted on.  Blowing either one probably would have saved a  lot of pain but at some point a person is probably more likely just holding on for dear life rather than releasing sheets.  If there really is a big red button then either it didn't work or is in an awkward place to reach when you're hanging fifty feet up in the air suspended above lots of lines and several other possible hurt makers. 



#28 pacice

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:57 AM

Zone of death, no turning up or down. 

I thought they have automated anti capsize devices/software which released the sails if capsizing.

I read they were developed for the singlehanded 60 footers.



#29 Bill Gibbs

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:57 AM

A 6 second capsize canot be blamed on external factors like helicopter or zone-of-death.  Human reaction time is below 0.5 seconds.  Let go of the hand-held main sheet.  If there was no hand held main sheet or equivalent, then something is wrong.

 

Travelers frequently jam, or fail to de-power a main quickly.  Easing the main sheet de-powers a flat head main very fast.  I did not see the boom go down.  Hydraulics?  I have never sailed with a hydraulic main.  Are they this dangerous?

 

These seem the two choices:

1. crew error in not easing the main sheet in over 6 seconds???

2. hydraulic issues preventing #1.

3. other?



#30 r.finn

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:24 AM

I'm glad helicopter is not on the list. It wasn't a factor.

#31 lars@knup.de

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:34 AM

JPD thought there was a keel?

He is used to sail without a keel, isn't he?



#32 Xlot

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:01 AM

I seem to remember Clean did a good/detailed walk-through the then Véolia (now in the US), including sheet arrangement, canting etc.

#33 BalticBandit

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:08 AM

Look at the vid again.  Jib gets blown..  But the AWA is such that as the boat heels over the jib doesn't flap or go out, but the leach shows the ease.   The main may have been blown or not, but again, unless you blow BOTH the sheet and the vang there won't be much effect, and with the square top batten, blowing the vang won't really change what is going on at the top of the mast.

 

One thing that I wonder about is whether the foils are making these blowovers more likely to happen.  Think through the geometry.    that foil is generating RM up through about 45 - maybe even 60 degrees of pitch  but beyond that, the curve now is generating a lift vector TO LEEWARD.  and while you wold expect that foil to pop clear as it does once they hit about 80 deg of heel, from 60 to 80 you can see it being driven back into the water by the extra lateral weight of the hull lifting more vertical. 



#34 cric

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:36 AM

One last video on their twitter feed (https://twitter.com/...eanPierre/media)

 

this is the rescue operation and mainly JP behind airlifted

http://www.dailymoti...e-jp-dick_sport

At the end, JP and one rescuer talking:

rescuer: Honestly it doesn't look too bad JP

Are you ok?

JP: yeah, yeah

 

In the very short JP interview on the website (it's a 4 liner) a still shaken  (and injured) JP uses the words "very quickly" 3 times... 



#35 cric

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:52 AM

media coverage aspect:

 

This thing is all over the news channels in France, they are running footage of the capsize and interview of JP still inside the hull.

Apparently Bilou was interviewed live this morning on both news channels (too early for me, I missed it) 

This is french and ocean racing for you. (some sailing talk but they obviously also play on the scary part of JP falling almost 70 feet) 

 

This is getting the same kind of coverage as Le Cleach and his Med record crossing at the beginning of the week (they were on board when he arrived back in France)



#36 diggler

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 09:32 AM

Watch the video again, the traveller does go down, and fairly promptly. Just not very far. It wasn't at the end of the track, don't know what happened there. The jib was eased waaayy late. The lack of mainsheet easing both here and on the Spindrift capsize puzzles me greatly, does the hydraulic system suck or what?

#37 HASYB

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:05 AM

Comment from JP on twitter says it all n'est ce pas:

 

JP"Tout est allé très vite. J’ai vu une forte risée arriver par derrière. J’ai choqué le chariot de gv, pas assez"



#38 Peccadillo

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:34 AM

Look at the vid again.  Jib gets blown..  But the AWA is such that as the boat heels over the jib doesn't flap or go out, but the leach shows the ease.   The main may have been blown or not, but again, unless you blow BOTH the sheet and the vang there won't be much effect, and with the square top batten, blowing the vang won't really change what is going on at the top of the mast.

 

There is no vang. Virtually never seen on a multi coz u've got such a wide track.

 

With a big squaretop main on my cat (somewhat lower in the performance curve than a MOD70!), we smoke the mainsheet for emergency depower, not the traveler (although sometimes both). Don't understand why this doesn't seem popular on the French boats. It sure works for us.



#39 moody frog

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:50 AM

media coverage aspect:

 

This thing is all over the news channels in France, they are running footage of the capsize and interview of JP still inside the hull.

Apparently Bilou was interviewed live this morning on both news channels (too early for me, I missed it) 

This is french and ocean racing for you. (some sailing talk but they obviously also play on the scary part of JP falling almost 70 feet) 

 

This is getting the same kind of coverage as Le Cleach and his Med record crossing at the beginning of the week (they were on board when he arrived back in France)

 

In this specific case, the "guests", hiding Inside the hull and who can be seen exiting through the escape hatch, happened to be TV reporters from one of the french news channel (BFM TV I unders,tand). Obviously they know how to make a trip worth.



#40 richie

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:31 AM

Looked like to me,they were unable to ease the main at all,no sheet,no traveler....wonder how this system works?

 

They did go out there to practice and do some photo shoots...I bet,nobody thought about that!

 

Amazingly the boat was hanging in for a while at the ineradicable angle,maybe 50+ deg....that's mind bugling...

 

It will be difficult to fix it in couple of weeks,unless there is a spare rig available...



#41 mgosailing

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:34 PM

The jib definately gets eased, you can hear it in the video taken on board and also see it in the helo video. 

 

My main question is that even if the main traveler and sheet are eased it would really seem that it was not eased enough as the main never seems to start luffing. In addition, for the sake of argument, if you ease the jib enough to stall it but don't really release the main, aren't you moving the center of effort further aft and exacerbating the problem? I would think with a big squaretop that would be the first thing you would want to ease to move the center of effort forward and depower?

 

It would certainly seem that the main, for whatever reason, did not really get eased as there is no vang and the top never really seems to spill off. But then again, I'm just some hack from the midwest.

 

Glad everyone made it out relatively unscathed.



#42 GauchoGreg

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:15 PM

Has there ever been such comprehensive coverage of a large multi capsizing when not part of a covered race?  Heli-coverage and on-board coverage at the time of the crash.  I hate to be a tin-foiler, but it does make one wonder . . .

 

Likely they were showing off upper end of performance and pushed too far, but they seemed to be in total control, without much heel, then boom.  Not a lot of room for error when pushing, no matter if it was not at upper wind levels. 

 

My tinfoil comment is not likely to be the case, but the incident and coverage does make you at least consider it.



#43 moody frog

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:23 PM

Has there ever been such comprehensive coverage of a large multi capsizing when not part of a covered race?  Heli-coverage and on-board coverage at the time of the crash.  I hate to be a tin-foiler, but it does make one wonder . . .

 

The boat was out sailing for the photographers and videoers to build the image-bank from the Helo , in view of the Transat Jacques Vabre one month from now.

As per my previous post, TV reporters used that opportunity to come on board and were hiding at the time of the "official" bank-image filming..... then ..... capsize happened;



#44 GauchoGreg

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

Has there ever been such comprehensive coverage of a large multi capsizing when not part of a covered race?  Heli-coverage and on-board coverage at the time of the crash.  I hate to be a tin-foiler, but it does make one wonder . . .

 

The boat was out sailing for the photographers and videoers to build the image-bank from the Helo , in view of the Transat Jacques Vabre one month from now.

As per my previous post, TV reporters used that opportunity to come on board and were hiding at the time of the "official" bank-image filming, and ..... capsize happened;

 

Yeah, I was editing my post while you wrote this up. 



#45 Big Show

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

on their twitter feed, the capsize from inside (they had a cameraman onboard) you also get some audio / no translation necessary

(THey must have been shooting some promo before the transat with cameraman / flag and chopper)

http://www.dailymoti...eo-a-bord_sport

 

Upsidedownroom. Wow.

 

Those hatches on the sides of the hulls are a useful bit of kit in that situation.



#46 GauchoGreg

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

Does the fleet have any extra masts laying around?

 

I'm guessing the sails aren't looking too good, either.



#47 Donjoman

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:27 PM

Why did he head up in the puff so much? Boat heads up then begins to lift...



#48 munt

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:32 PM

Watch the top of the main through the entire "crash" sequence.  It's sheeted on rock hard.  The boat seemed to hang there for a while, begging her operators to "ease, sil vous plait..."  before she finally committed herself to going over.  Maybe there was some easing of the headsail, but by definition, not enough.  It's interesting that they went from barely skimming the main hull to complete up and over so quickly, that must have been one very big puff...? 



#49 BalticBandit

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

The crew in his interview says he blew the jib



#50 BeachbumII

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:48 PM

Im not an expert on this, but the few times (under 10) when i have been  on big racing multihulls ( ORMA's or the old 80-footers ), the Mainsheet was not dumped because of the shockloads it produces. We were afraid that the mast will break from the middle, if the Backstay the sail leach forms, suddenly gets eased to no tension.



#51 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:53 PM

My tinfoil comment is not likely to be the case, but the incident and coverage does make you at least consider it.

Only if you're an idiot



#52 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:56 PM

Comment from JP on twitter says it all n'est ce pas:

 

JP"Tout est allé très vite. J’ai vu une forte risée arriver par derrière. J’ai choqué le chariot de gv, pas assez"

"Everything happened very quickly.  I saw a big gust coming from behind.  I blew the main traveler, but not enough."

 

I am told JPD is out of the TJV now - 2 months of recovery for his busted back.



#53 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

Blew the jib too late, dropped the traveler only a little.  Did not dump the main.  This could have been avoided. 



#54 BeachbumII

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

Its also easier to head upwind if the jib is eased. If you dump the main first, the boat will start bearing down in a manner that you cannot prevent it with highly angled ( angled because of heeling ) rudders.



#55 2speedy

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:00 PM

JPD: "I saw a big gust coming from behind."  Could have been the helicopter?



#56 GauchoGreg

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:01 PM

My tinfoil comment is not likely to be the case, but the incident and coverage does make you at least consider it.

Only if you're an idiot

 

Hey, like I said, I don't really think they meant to do it, but it is one of those things where you stop for just a second and consider it. 

 

As I said in the rest of my post, more likely than not it was all put together as an effort to make the boats look as dramatic as possible and things just went sideways, FAST.



#57 GauchoGreg

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:02 PM

Comment from JP on twitter says it all n'est ce pas:

 

JP"Tout est allé très vite. J’ai vu une forte risée arriver par derrière. J’ai choqué le chariot de gv, pas assez"

"Everything happened very quickly.  I saw a big gust coming from behind.  I blew the main traveler, but not enough."

 

I am told JPD is out of the TJV now - 2 months of recovery for his busted back.

 

That would point to the possibility of rotor-wash playing a part.



#58 GauchoGreg

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:03 PM

 

My tinfoil comment is not likely to be the case, but the incident and coverage does make you at least consider it.

Only if you're an idiot

 

Hey, like I said, I don't really think they meant to do it, but it is one of those things where you stop for just a second and consider it. 

 

As I said in the rest of my post, more likely than not it was all put together as an effort to make the boats look as dramatic as possible, pushing hard, and things just went sideways, FAST.



#59 2speedy

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:10 PM

This guy didn't ease the main either:



#60 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

 

My tinfoil comment is not likely to be the case, but the incident and coverage does make you at least consider it.

Only if you're an idiot

 

Hey, like I said, I don't really think they meant to do it, but it is one of those things where you stop for just a second and consider it. 

 

As I said in the rest of my post, more likely than not it was all put together as an effort to make the boats look as dramatic as possible and things just went sideways, FAST.

My point is - don't consider it. NO ONE WILL INTENTIONALLY FLIP A 70' MULTIHULL.  It just doesn't pay off, and as JPD found out (not like he doesn't know already), it can hurt or kill you. 

 

Yes there is an element of "Win or Die Trying" in the French scene, but it's not literal, and certainly not with a boat like this in non-race conditions.  What it means is, if you find yourself unable to close the gap to the leaders and you are one of the favorites, it's time to push a lot harder than you otherwise would.



#61 cric

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:21 PM

 

 

My tinfoil comment is not likely to be the case, but the incident and coverage does make you at least consider it.

Only if you're an idiot

 

Hey, like I said, I don't really think they meant to do it, but it is one of those things where you stop for just a second and consider it. 

 

As I said in the rest of my post, more likely than not it was all put together as an effort to make the boats look as dramatic as possible and things just went sideways, FAST.

My point is - don't consider it. NO ONE WILL INTENTIONALLY FLIP A 70' MULTIHULL.  It just doesn't pay off, and as JPD found out (not like he doesn't know already), it can hurt or kill you. 

 

Yes there is an element of "Win or Die Trying" in the French scene, but it's not literal, and certainly not with a boat like this in non-race conditions.  What it means is, if you find yourself unable to close the gap to the leaders and you are one of the favorites, it's time to push a lot harder than you otherwise would.

allright, it was blowing a nice 15, they were sailing in their flat home waters, playing it safe ... and still the boat tipped over

 

luck is a bitch



#62 Joli

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:36 PM

What is the black strop over the top of the boom about 5 foot back from the gooseneck?  It looks like it goes from the weather side, over the boom, then down to the leeward side.  Some sort of vang?  Would that stop the easing of the main?



#63 munt

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:43 PM

yeah, what is the black thing?  looks like it's rigged as some type of preventer or makeshift vang?  But why is it there?  Sure looks like it's trying to hold the boom down, can't be good for easing the main...



#64 munt

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:47 PM

looking at the black strap again, is it being used a barber hauler for the foresail sheet?  and did they maybe make the mistake of running it over the boom to get better angle, thus sealing their fate? 



#65 Borderline

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:40 PM

The black thing is just a bungi that holds the windward solent blocks above the tramps and from smashing on the hull, it certainly would not have prevented the easing of the main. I believe the main was blow but the fact there was no solent ease pervented moving. You can see the crew rush into the cockpit to get to the solent sheet on the leward primary but doesn't make it.

#66 bruno

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:48 PM

What i saw was that as soon as they start to heel (which does look helo assisted) the sheethand's left arm comes up but the sail does not go out. Fortunately for him he drifts just aft of the traveler beam so is in a clear pocket when the mast breaks.

#67 catsailordude

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:53 PM

It appears that they were sailing a little below a beam reach when they headed up a bit and got overpowered.  Also if they were beam reaching and had a gust hit them "from behind" they would have been better to bear away.  It's hard to tell the exact details from the video, but it is obvious that the crew fucked up badly.  It's quite a bit different than Spindrift's capsize where the boat was blown over in a huge gust.



#68 nacragopher

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:18 PM

Absolutely nothing to do with the helicopter downwash:
A. The hello is quite far out, as is evident when the cameraman zooms out
B. helicopter downwash, when present, is clearly visible on the water as a violent circular spray pattern on the water. There is none here.
C. Helos fly forward by tilting the body and rotor so the air is propelled down and backwards, and therefore pushes the helo up and forward. The downwash is therefore behind the helo unless it is hovering, which it is not until game over.

I have been aboard a helo landing deck at sea during hundreds of landings. From where that helo was, the downwash could never reach the boat.

See this video for downwash

#69 r.finn

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:34 PM

I think having the mast canted to windward limits the effectiveness of being able to travel down easily.  I remember Mich Desjoyeaux writing about that problem in Seahorse some years ago.  That combined with the very high mainsheet tension might explain difficulty of depowering.  As I haven't sailed one of these this is ass talk.  Has anyone who "contributed" to this thread sailed one?  

 

Also, what Nacragopher said.



#70 unShirley

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:07 PM

Given that this was a photo op, and regardless of what is being said by crew members afterward, my impression after watching the video is that they were showboating and paid a stiff price.  It just seems like they are flying high for a long time, certainly long enough to recover, before they finally go over. 

 

Yes, this is speculation from somebody that has never sailed on a multihull bigger than 31', but that is what it looks like to me.



#71 RandyM81

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:10 PM

Is it accurate to say that when big multis go over the rig typically breaks up but when small multis go over the rig generally stays together?  I'm thinking of Extreme 40 and AC45 capsizes/pitchpoles versus ORMA60, MOD70, and AC72 capsizes/pitchpoles.  

 

If I am correct, what scaling law is in effect that makes a capsize or pitchpole more survivable for a smaller multihull?



#72 yoda

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:37 PM

sailed on one in san diego bay on a light day - no drama, obviously.  But, the helmsman has a line to pull to blow the hydraulic mainsheet (about a 6 foot ease), a line to blow the main shrouds to dump the rig to leeward (maybe 7 degrees beyond vertical?), and the full beam traveler around a large winch -- all in easy reach.  however, other concerns mentioned previously about the shock loading on the rig of blowing the mainsheet are beyond my experience - but seem to have merit.



#73 BigSquid

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:48 AM

"Everything happened very quickly.  I saw a big gust coming from behind.  I blew the main traveler, but not enough."
Must be a translation issue there. Easing the traveler on a mod70 would close the top of the mainsail and make things worse; supposed to ease main sheet to twist open the sail.

#74 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:16 AM

"Everything happened very quickly.  I saw a big gust coming from behind.  I blew the main traveler, but not enough."
Must be a translation issue there. Easing the traveler on a mod70 would close the top of the mainsail and make things worse; supposed to ease main sheet to twist open the sail.

Chariot de gv - mainsail traveler I am 95% sure.  Choquer = to blow



#75 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:36 AM

 Has anyone who "contributed" to this thread sailed one?  

I have, in similar conditions, about 60 NM between La Trinite and Concarneau on the Veolia before she was sold back to the MOD and then became Orion I think... if I have my numbers right we did 4 hours or so into the harbor including a bunch of time dicking around trying to find our RIB escort.  There was much beer on the dock.   

 

Boat was very controlled at 23-33 knots but that was with all important lines tended and constant helm relief, pushing the boat hard but safe with no owner aboard. Mostly on one hull.  Anyway I am surprised to see her heel so quickly in that initial puff.  Never felt the boat move that quickly onto her side; again though, we had most crew on the high side, no one down below, and that can't have helped much.  Shame to see when Bilou and JPD were so excited to do this race together, but once again a message that you can never, never relax on one of these boats, not for a minute.  And if you are bold enough to take a 60' or bigger trimaran out there single or doublehanded, you know one big squall could pretty easily make your trip a very upside down one.  Man I hope JP is feeling ok.



#76 ProaSailor

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:16 AM

http://www.sail-worl...---Video/115633
 

Jean-Pierre Dick later commented: 'I'm still in shock. Everything went very quickly. I saw a strong gust get behind us. I released the mainsail carriage but it was obviously not not enough. 
 
'Everything changed quickly, I fell from a great height, and I hit something and before falling into the water. It was violent. 
 
'Fortunately, I was able to reach the hull very quickly. I could soon feel that I had back pain. We waited for rescue in sadness.'

 
And this "speculation", from the Multihulls mail list:
 

On a beam or broad reach, but close hauled for apparent wind angle, as the starboard hull rose into the air, the traveller was release, but not the main sheet.  Once elevated, boat speed dropped and apparent wind backed, keeping the main full.  With the traveller down, no one could release the main sheet.  Once at 45º the rudder stopped working.  Whenever the jib sheet was released, it was not that helpful.  And over she goes.



#77 diggler

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:12 AM

...Easing the traveler on a mod70 would close the top of the mainsail and make things worse; supposed to ease main sheet to twist open the sail.

 

Is this statement based on some 1st hand info? The main traveller on the MOD is curved in both vertical and horizontal planes so easing it should have no significant effect on the leech of the mainsail. Likewise, the mainsheet tension should not inhibit the traveller movement. But, I base this on many hours of studying photo and video of these boats, not on first hand experience.

 

The MHML speculation about apparent clocking aft as they go over seems pretty plausible, although I don't know why one would think the mainsheet can't be eased just because the traveller is down?? Even if shock loading the mast to destruction is a concern, at some point that has to be the better risk to take than an upside platform on top of a most likely destroyed mast?



#78 popo

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:02 AM

Isn't the former Foncia still ashore ?

Could be a spare mast available there ?



#79 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:10 AM

M. Dick is broken, Popo!  



#80 SCANAS

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:25 AM

As Forest Gump said. SHIT HAPPENS. It was an accident, these guys pushed it hard and it went over. God only knows what exactly went on in their heads not that it matters but my 2 cents is they both thought the other has it under control.

#81 BigSquid

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:26 PM

I have no experience on a mod70 and don't know what I'm talking about. Might be loads are so high you don't blow the mainsheet easily so I shouldnt assume. Basic assumption even with a curved traveler is the best case is that the sail stays sheeted when eased so as apparent wind clocks around as you slow down during trouble it does little or nothing. Best first response if it is possible is to ease sheet first and let the boom raise up to twist out the top of the sail and depower then worry about the traveler.

#82 cric

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:27 PM

3 minutes interview in last night main news show in France (starts at 38.40)

JP and Bilou on the dock with the tri in the back, in French

http://www.francetvi...013_427622.html

JP is ok and realizes how lucky he is.

basically : those are big boats, we are always on the edge, perhaps even more while training

we will make a decision Monday on the Transat, 2 questions to answer  human and hardware...

(the journalist did ask : did you push that boat too hard or not?)



#83 popo

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:35 PM

M. Dick is broken, Popo!  


I think we've already seen a last minute change of crew for this kind of matter (but here dick is the skipper, it makes a diff )

#84 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:33 PM

Boy I tried to attribute a Rounddown on a photo series of Amer Sports One to Helicopter downwash.  Received so much flak from you guys I'll never bring it up again.



#85 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:50 PM

Huh?



#86 Christian

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:50 PM

Bingo - you have to ease it slowly- but you can dump the traveler much faster although it is not as effective especially when the rig is canted to windward as the sheet loads up as the traveler is dumped.  Really have to dump both the rig cant and the traveler

 

Im not an expert on this, but the few times (under 10) when i have been  on big racing multihulls ( ORMA's or the old 80-footers ), the Mainsheet was not dumped because of the shockloads it produces. We were afraid that the mast will break from the middle, if the Backstay the sail leach forms, suddenly gets eased to no tension.



#87 Trov„o

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

Bingo - you have to ease it slowly- but you can dump the traveler much faster although it is not as effective

 

Im not an expert on this, but the few times (under 10) when i have been  on big racing multihulls ( ORMA's or the old 80-footers ), the Mainsheet was not dumped because of the shockloads it produces. We were afraid that the mast will break from the middle, if the Backstay the sail leach forms, suddenly gets eased to no tension.

 

yeah, but still better (or less worse) to break the mast with the boat right side up than upside down, isn't it?



#88 mad

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:04 PM


Boy I tried to attribute a Rounddown on a photo series of Amer Sports One to Helicopter downwash.  Received so much flak from you guys I'll never bring it up again.


Urrrr, you just have.

#89 Christian

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:07 PM

Depends on how far the rig is canted to windward.  If it is canted fully you certainly load up the mainsheet when you travel down (just think about the geometry involved)

...Easing the traveler on a mod70 would close the top of the mainsail and make things worse; supposed to ease main sheet to twist open the sail.

 

Is this statement based on some 1st hand info? The main traveller on the MOD is curved in both vertical and horizontal planes so easing it should have no significant effect on the leech of the mainsail. Likewise, the mainsheet tension should not inhibit the traveller movement. But, I base this on many hours of studying photo and video of these boats, not on first hand experience.

 

The MHML speculation about apparent clocking aft as they go over seems pretty plausible, although I don't know why one would think the mainsheet can't be eased just because the traveller is down?? Even if shock loading the mast to destruction is a concern, at some point that has to be the better risk to take than an upside platform on top of a most likely destroyed mast?



#90 Laurent

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:08 PM

"Everything happened very quickly.  I saw a big gust coming from behind.  I blew the main traveler, but not enough."
Must be a translation issue there. Easing the traveler on a mod70 would close the top of the mainsail and make things worse; supposed to ease main sheet to twist open the sail.

Chariot de gv - mainsail traveler I am 95% sure.  Choquer = to blow

Correct translation on both fronts.

Chariot is traveler

gv stands for grand voile i.e. mainsail

and yes, choquer is: release, trim out, blow the sail.



#91 Christian

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:09 PM

It is probably against human nature to decidedly blow up the rig.  Also think about the sudden loads that this produces - could fold the whole thing into pieces if you are unlucky

 

Bingo - you have to ease it slowly- but you can dump the traveler much faster although it is not as effective

 

Im not an expert on this, but the few times (under 10) when i have been  on big racing multihulls ( ORMA's or the old 80-footers ), the Mainsheet was not dumped because of the shockloads it produces. We were afraid that the mast will break from the middle, if the Backstay the sail leach forms, suddenly gets eased to no tension.

 

yeah, but still better (or less worse) to break the mast with the boat right side up than upside down, isn't it?



#92 Trov„o

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:31 PM

you're probably right about it. kinda sophie's choice.

 

It is probably against human nature to decidedly blow up the rig.  Also think about the sudden loads that this produces - could fold the whole thing into pieces if you are unlucky

 

 

Bingo - you have to ease it slowly- but you can dump the traveler much faster although it is not as effective

 

Im not an expert on this, but the few times (under 10) when i have been  on big racing multihulls ( ORMA's or the old 80-footers ), the Mainsheet was not dumped because of the shockloads it produces. We were afraid that the mast will break from the middle, if the Backstay the sail leach forms, suddenly gets eased to no tension.

 

yeah, but still better (or less worse) to break the mast with the boat right side up than upside down, isn't it?



#93 BeachbumII

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:07 PM

In my mind theres no problem blowing the mainsheet to prevent capsize. It just isnt the first reaction and in some cases it can be late to do it as a second option. In this case, they claim they worked on the traveler, but to my eye nothing happens. Perhaps the geometry induced sheet-load prevented anything from happening. The guy who was on it, misjudged the situation and started to sort out the jammed traveler, instead of dumping the main ( wich would have sorted out the traveler also )



#94 diggler

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:59 PM

I have, extensively. Think about what a traveller curved in two dimensions means. Fully canted on these boats is what, 8 degrees? Photos are available showing easily that much rise on the traveller track on the MODS.

 

Depends on how far the rig is canted to windward.  If it is canted fully you certainly load up the mainsheet when you travel down (just think about the geometry involved)

 

...Easing the traveler on a mod70 would close the top of the mainsail and make things worse; supposed to ease main sheet to twist open the sail.

 

Is this statement based on some 1st hand info? The main traveller on the MOD is curved in both vertical and horizontal planes so easing it should have no significant effect on the leech of the mainsail. Likewise, the mainsheet tension should not inhibit the traveller movement. But, I base this on many hours of studying photo and video of these boats, not on first hand experience.

 

The MHML speculation about apparent clocking aft as they go over seems pretty plausible, although I don't know why one would think the mainsheet can't be eased just because the traveller is down?? Even if shock loading the mast to destruction is a concern, at some point that has to be the better risk to take than an upside platform on top of a most likely destroyed mast?



#95 USA190520

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 09:41 PM

Fuckin' BoatPix....

#96 Trevor B

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:59 PM

Mainsheet on the MOD 70 is hydraulic, which can slow the release rate, but shouldn't if properly designed.

It looks like the crew didn't think they were anywhere near the edge and thus did not react strongly enough with either the steering nor the sheets.

My guess is helicopter gust.



#97 Christian

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:32 AM

Have only sailed the ORMA60's not the MOD 70's so cannot say for sure.  To me it looks like the MOD 70 traveler is angled upwards on the part that becomes straight (to make up for the straight traveler part) but not to make up for a canted rig - BUT - as I said I haven't sailed on them so only guesswork.  On the ORMA 60 it was just a curved flat track and you had to "manually" compensate for the canting of the rig - as in: it wasn't built in to the traveler track.

 

But all that is somewhat unimportant as in the situation at hand the saving mode for this would be to drop rig cant, traveler and some main sheet (solent/jib sheet does have some but not a huge effect in that situation)

I have, extensively. Think about what a traveller curved in two dimensions means. Fully canted on these boats is what, 8 degrees? Photos are available showing easily that much rise on the traveller track on the MODS.

 

 

Depends on how far the rig is canted to windward.  If it is canted fully you certainly load up the mainsheet when you travel down (just think about the geometry involved)

 

...Easing the traveler on a mod70 would close the top of the mainsail and make things worse; supposed to ease main sheet to twist open the sail.

 

Is this statement based on some 1st hand info? The main traveller on the MOD is curved in both vertical and horizontal planes so easing it should have no significant effect on the leech of the mainsail. Likewise, the mainsheet tension should not inhibit the traveller movement. But, I base this on many hours of studying photo and video of these boats, not on first hand experience.

 

The MHML speculation about apparent clocking aft as they go over seems pretty plausible, although I don't know why one would think the mainsheet can't be eased just because the traveller is down?? Even if shock loading the mast to destruction is a concern, at some point that has to be the better risk to take than an upside platform on top of a most likely destroyed mast?



#98 ProaSailor

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:11 AM

photo of MOD70 traveler track:

 

7923484124_8e463b99b1_k.jpg



#99 diggler

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:32 AM

But all that is somewhat unimportant as in the situation at hand the saving mode for this would be to drop rig cant, traveler and some main sheet (solent/jib sheet does have some but not a huge effect in that situation)

 

Your comment about the dropping rig cant is very interesting. My first guess would have been that shifting several hundred kg of mast further to leeward would outweigh any aero gains in depowering the rig, I'm obviously overlooking some important physics. Any more info on this? Was it a regular practice on the ORMAs?



#100 SCANAS

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:09 PM


...Easing the traveler on a mod70 would close the top of the mainsail and make things worse; supposed to ease main sheet to twist open the sail.

 
Is this statement based on some 1st hand info? The main traveller on the MOD is curved in both vertical and horizontal planes so easing it should have no significant effect on the leech of the mainsail. Likewise, the mainsheet tension should not inhibit the traveller movement. But, I base this on many hours of studying photo and video of these boats, not on first hand experience.
 
The MHML speculation about apparent clocking aft as they go over seems pretty plausible, although I don't know why one would think the mainsheet can't be eased just because the traveller is down?? Even if shock loading the mast to destruction is a concern, at some point that has to be the better risk to take than an upside platform on top of a most likely destroyed mast?

X2 a potentially broken mast versus sending the boat over. Rescue. Salvage. Damage. Cheaper to potentially break the mast, no greater shock than a gybe.




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