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#1 Editor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:06 PM

Remember that? Well this isn't that, but it is a rendering of the new C&C 30, designed by Mark Mills and to be built by US Watercraft. Around 3,300 lbs, diesel inboard, fixed sprit. Assuming a smart price point, is this boat something you would consider buying?

 

 

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#2 arr4ws

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:19 PM

Interesting design. Just not a c&c. But i guessed they had to change since the old C&C was not selling well.



#3 rantifarian

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:28 PM

Cat 2 capable, quicker than a mummfarr, it would get some attention.



#4 AvidSailor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:34 PM

No, I would say wait for the Farr 28 which will be much better than this.

#5 Ringmaster

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:51 PM

So an unknown boat would be better.  What a statement.



#6 rantifarian

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:07 PM

So an unknown boat would be better.  What a statement.

Vapourware A is better than Vapourware B and you damn well know it.



#7 notallthere

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:13 PM

Remember that? Well this isn't that, but it is a rendering of the new C&C 30, designed by Mark Mills and to be built by US Watercraft. Around 3,300 lbs, diesel inboard, fixed sprit. Assuming a smart price point, is this boat something you would consider buying?

 

We could do a Cabo in that... Not enough headroom for Sean and Todd though!



#8 Pokey uh da LBC

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:17 PM

30 foot boat that requires a 35 foot slip.

 

Just don't understand the thinking.

 

Its one thing to put a 5 foot sprit on a tp52 or similar sized boat. But the proportional cost boost of a big fixed sprit on a small boat just doesn't make sense for the average buyer of a 30 footer.



#9 no one important

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:38 PM

30 foot boat that requires a 35 foot slip.

 

Just don't understand the thinking.

 

Its one thing to put a 5 foot sprit on a tp52 or similar sized boat. But the proportional cost boost of a big fixed sprit on a small boat just doesn't make sense for the average buyer of a 30 footer.

and it looks kinda stupid



#10 fireball

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:54 PM

LOA of 9.0 metres or above makes a big difference in the possible uses for the boat.

 

So the Farr decision to make their boat 8.72m long looks very strange. If the C&C 30 is as long as its name suggests then it has an advantage.

 

It's lighter than the Farr.



#11 J29Guy

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:56 PM

I think non retracting  Sprit would be a deal breaker for me.  Dockage for a 5 foot pole doesn't make much sense  and I am sure some places a 30 foot dock is doable but a 35  foot dock just adds to the over all cost.



#12 Will

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:59 PM

cool! 



#13 sammy_cda

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:15 AM

Where are the training hulls on each side?



#14 wingman

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:23 AM

I have to imagine that the "non retracting Sprit" is non-retracting while sailing and would be detachable at the dock.  



#15 n00b

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:31 AM

how is it really any different than a melges 30/melges 32, at the end of the day?



#16 rantifarian

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:21 AM

how is it really any different than a melges 30/melges 32, at the end of the day?

You might be able to take this thing offshore. M32 (as far as I know) won't meet most coastal race safety requirements



#17 usa 917

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:51 AM

C&C's were good looking boats in the 80's. Looking good again...

#18 dogedog

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:55 AM

What type of keel system - raising or fixed during storage? Love the concept but seems like a Farr280 knockoff (already).

Fix sprit is sexy but a detractor for the non-GP guys who have a hard enough time docking and starting with a retractable spear on the bow...

Bring on the competition... Certainly will keep prices Down (unfortunately for the builders). Maybe they can share a sail package to keep economical to boot...

#19 jc172528

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:39 AM

30 foot boat that requires a 35 foot slip.

 

Just don't understand the thinking.

 

Its one thing to put a 5 foot sprit on a tp52 or similar sized boat. But the proportional cost boost of a big fixed sprit on a small boat just doesn't make sense for the average buyer of a 30 footer.

 

+1, at least make the sprit retractable / removal.



#20 Norm

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:53 AM

no runners please



#21 Spoonie

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:00 AM

how is it really any different than a melges 30/melges 32, at the end of the day?

 

Or the huge commercial success of the soto30



#22 bellum

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:13 AM

C&Cs were sexy and fast in the seventies and eighties.  No harm in bringing back a little sexy to a great line of boats.

 

As long as the sprit is removable and, like in the seventies, the boat comes in at $1000/ foot, I'm in.



#23 r.finn

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:47 AM

Branding it C&C is badass. It's a thumb at J Boats. Fuck wholesome.

#24 evenflow

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:48 AM

Wow... that is a heck of a lot sexier than my '87 C&C 30-2... option the diesel and I might very well have found my new boat.



#25 evenflow

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:50 AM

On second thought... can they shrink it down to a 27?  That would work even better...



#26 fastyacht

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:52 AM

Same weight as a J24 but much longer. Sounds like a plan.



#27 Vang Tang

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:38 AM

We always like to whip it out...this kinda takes the fun outta that.

 

If you're going to mount something in-front of the forestay, at least make it articulate. 



#28 George Hackett

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:41 AM

how does she compare to the Soto 30?



#29 Ricky Bobby

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:55 AM

i would looks cool!! fixed prodders also have no flex = more speed and no holes into the baot to leak water and much easier to have twin tack lines.



#30 MSA

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:58 AM

What type of keel system - raising or fixed during storage? Love the concept but seems like a Farr280 knockoff (already).

Fix sprit is sexy but a detractor for the non-GP guys who have a hard enough time docking and starting with a retractable spear on the bow...

Bring on the competition... Certainly will keep prices Down (unfortunately for the builders). Maybe they can share a sail package to keep economical to boot...

Dogedog..

 

Not true. Mark and I worked on an older sister of this project quite long time ago.. As in nearly 18 months ago. Had 5 ready to order, but the original "to be owner" was full of shit and not cash as we had hoped.. Project is still there ready to press go.. Seems C&C have assumed the risk for tooling cost. Which is great!

 

Our price point was Landed in AUS at around $90 ex dials and sails.

 

Retractable Sprit adds close to 8% of the boat value. Inboard is about the same.

 

We had the Twin Mast head Backstays v Single argument. Basically, Boat A with Squaretop and runners is faster than boat B with Pinhead single backstay...

But it is as simple as using one backstay not 2 and keeping the two winches..



#31 GregC

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:26 AM

Well, I've had 2 C&Cs in the past, including custom 30-2XL, but looked nothing like this, even compared to the new 101. Curious about the builder, the C&C name just keeps moving around.

Cheers, Greg



#32 BalticBandit

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:38 AM

3300 lbs for a 30'er?  Why not grab an Olson 30.  Pull a mold off of it.  redesign the keel frame to hold a torpedo keel.  Put a sprit on it and a CF rig - and come in at under 3300 lbs.  They built O30s at 3600lbs without the CF that's going into this thing... Give me an O30



#33 Polaris

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:09 AM

Fixed sprit is a mistake in the design.



#34 carcrash

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:39 AM

Missing at least one hull and foils.

We just saw the future, who wants the past, if we are talking abot racing, fast, and/ or fun.

Racing slow is demonstrably dead.

#35 Big Show

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:13 PM

Missing at least one hull and foils.

We just saw the future, who wants the past, if we are talking abot racing, fast, and/ or fun.

Racing slow is demonstrably dead.

 

Good point. Before I opened this thread I wondered what multi you could get for approx the same $? 

 

Faster and lighter is a good look.



#36 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:14 PM

no runners please

I'm sure thats a split back stay for a square top main big diff



no runners please

I'm sure thats a split back stay for a square top main big diff



#37 MidPack

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

No head (I assume) and a fixed sprit (removable?) would keep us from buying.

 

And "smart price point" might be subject to some debate...compared to what?



#38 Veeger

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:20 PM

As a former multihull owner, I'd say that adding a hull is far, far more of a negative than a fixed sprit.  Much easier to fina a 35' slip than a 30' slip for an 18' beam (and cheaper).  Forget the trailering, folding lifting keel shit, it just complicates and raises expenses and adds weight with too much compromise overall.  

 

Yes, a bit longer loa is more expensive for moorage but in the whole scheme of things if another $1200 a year in moorage breaks you, then you probably aren't really being competitive anyway, what with crew costs, beer, dinners, lunch, new sails, entry fees etc.  I've long since come to the conclusion that a few extra feet of slip cost is not something to worry about, unless you're looking at a shoe-string operation for a used $15k boat that you can only 'just' afford.  NTTAWWT.



#39 BIAM

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:38 PM

Design looks nice enough.....

 

and, lets assume that it is a quality build....which, of course means premium price...

 

but, then the real issue is support for the class...

 

and, other than J or melges...and maybe rondar...is there any company capable of supporting a real OD class building effort?



#40 Parma

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:39 PM

Missing at least one hull and foils.

We just saw the future, who wants the past, if we are talking abot racing, fast, and/ or fun.

Racing slow is demonstrably dead.

maybe for you

 

if I had a cat i would end up swimming



#41 In the Jailhouse Now

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:03 PM

3300 lbs for a 30'er?  Why not grab an Olson 30.  Pull a mold off of it.  redesign the keel frame to hold a torpedo keel.  Put a sprit on it and a CF rig - and come in at under 3300 lbs.  They built O30s at 3600lbs without the CF that's going into this thing... Give me an O30

The O30 is not a planning hull design as most of the modern Sportys are. A new Keel would only make it lighter, which would make it surf quicker but planning is a different story.

 

That Sprit is kind of weird. Can you see that in a dry storage yard? It will constantly be getting damaged.



#42 Murphness

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:05 PM

As a former multihull owner, I'd say that adding a hull is far, far more of a negative than a fixed sprit.  Much easier to fina a 35' slip than a 30' slip for an 18' beam (and cheaper).  Forget the trailering, folding lifting keel shit, it just complicates and raises expenses and adds weight with too much compromise overall.  

 

Yes, a bit longer loa is more expensive for moorage but in the whole scheme of things if another $1200 a year in moorage breaks you, then you probably aren't really being competitive anyway, what with crew costs, beer, dinners, lunch, new sails, entry fees etc.  I've long since come to the conclusion that a few extra feet of slip cost is not something to worry about, unless you're looking at a shoe-string operation for a used $15k boat that you can only 'just' afford.  NTTAWWT.

Hit the nail on the head here! Stop complaining about the fixed sprit FFS. If you can't afford a 35' slip you can't afford to race competitively in a budding OD class of this size boat. Simple as that. I'm sure you could take it off if you were that concerned about it anyways... The boat looks sweet and I hope it takes off! Made in the US to boot. Someone down in Naptown take a photo of the specs at the C&C booth and post it up!



#43 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:19 PM

Unless it is totaly a boat for distance racing keel needs to be in a vara, keel need to lift and the sprit need to retract. Articulation would be nice as well



#44 sailon

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:44 PM

I would like to know when these "sportboat" designers are going to bring the mainsail controls back to the helmsman i.e., like a scow.  Also, the fixed sprit is a mistake.



#45 Swimsailor

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:48 PM

Do sailboat companies like this do any kind of market research or polling before introducing this stuff? Or does BC just need a job? It's seems that J Boats has their markets pretty dialed but many others like this just seem to throw whatever against the wall to see what sticks. It looks like a col enough boat but as many have said, the fixed sprit seems like overkill for not much benefit.

#46 Swimsailor

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:59 PM

As a former multihull owner, I'd say that adding a hull is far, far more of a negative than a fixed sprit.  Much easier to fina a 35' slip than a 30' slip for an 18' beam (and cheaper).  Forget the trailering, folding lifting keel shit, it just complicates and raises expenses and adds weight with too much compromise overall.  
 
Yes, a bit longer loa is more expensive for moorage but in the whole scheme of things if another $1200 a year in moorage breaks you, then you probably aren't really being competitive anyway, what with crew costs, beer, dinners, lunch, new sails, entry fees etc.  I've long since come to the conclusion that a few extra feet of slip cost is not something to worry about, unless you're looking at a shoe-string operation for a used $15k boat that you can only 'just' afford.  NTTAWWT.

Hit the nail on the head here! Stop complaining about the fixed sprit FFS. If you can't afford a 35' slip you can't afford to race competitively in a budding OD class of this size boat. Simple as that. I'm sure you could take it off if you were that concerned about it anyways... The boat looks sweet and I hope it takes off! Made in the US to boot. Someone down in Naptown take a photo of the specs at the C&C booth and post it up!

What?? The boat is 30 feet instead of 35 to keep costs down. If someone wanted to budget for a 35 footer they would buy a 35 footer. To say if you can't or don't want to budget for a 35 foot slip you won't be competitive in this class is to completely ignore basic budgeting and finance. Because if that's the case one might as well go home and race a laser.

#47 thumper

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:09 PM

Actually, the sprit is kinda short.  It would be a lot better if it was 7 to 10' forward of the Bow and retractable.  The savings in Dock fees making it retractable could pay for the added cost of the construction.  All in all, I go back to the Melges, Soto, and even Farr/Mumm 30 discussions.  Most people would rather go with something established, it also helps resell value.  The only reason to go here instead of one of the others would be the price point and that's not likely to happen.



#48 thumper

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:26 PM

http://www.c-cyachts.com/

 

WTF?



#49 Great Red Shark

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:15 PM

3300 lbs for a 30'er?  Why not grab an Olson 30.  Pull a mold off of it.  redesign the keel frame to hold a torpedo keel.  Put a sprit on it and a CF rig - and come in at under 3300 lbs.  They built O30s at 3600lbs without the CF that's going into this thing... Give me an O30

Okay, now this shit is just silly.

Whenever anyone says something like "All you have to do is..." or " Just pop a mold off it..." I strongly suspect the speaker of being Full of It. Very few people that have actually built a plug, and formed a mold to produce tooled parts would EVER suggest making that investment in effort on an OLD design - far more work & material investment is involved than you imagine and starting off with something 30 years old is just stupid on it's face - let alone you'd be years out and money behind someone with actual boat-building skills that is MAKING BOATS already.

Now, speaking of Calling Bullshit - as for the 3,300 # displacement and inboard diesel and an affordable price, I think this will be VERY difficult to achieve and suspect more than a bit of Vaporware is going on here.

I am reminded of the very good, critical review that Scot did (back in the old days before getting into politics and court battles) of the first Columbia 30 design that made VERY similar claims and the excellent technical comparison they did versus the Mumm30 and some other boats in the category - illustrating that these figures are QUITE hard to achieve without resorting to unobtainium building materials (which of course, affect cost).

My 2 cents on the design ?

30-footer that needs a 35 foot slip ? not for me - the added cost of ownership will be an annual, ongoing expense, whereas the retracting pole costs only once.

- I like the Andrews 28 better, but then I'm a softy that likes being comfortable and appreciates a dual-use design more than some.

#50 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:57 PM

Well it certainly isn't going to replace any of the existing C&C 30s!



#51 Bill E Goat

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:21 PM

Dont the GTS43 have fixed but removable bowsprits,  I think they pull one bolt, disconnect the bob stay and rotate it up

gts43_phuket_final_5.jpg



#52 Swimsailor

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:51 PM

You haven't seen my other posts on the subject, have you?  This 30 looks like an original but the 41 is a blatant rehash of Mills Designs from a half dozen other builders.  A crying shame if you ask me.

Do sailboat companies like this do any kind of market research or polling before introducing this stuff? Or does BC just need a job? It's seems that J Boats has their markets pretty dialed but many others like this just seem to throw whatever against the wall to see what sticks.


You guys don't get that c&c is simply a sham to recycle the Summit 40 & 35. This 30 doesn't stand a chance of actually taking off. It a diversion while the shells are switched.


#53 Mr. Andersen

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:32 AM

 

As a former multihull owner, I'd say that adding a hull is far, far more of a negative than a fixed sprit.  Much easier to fina a 35' slip than a 30' slip for an 18' beam (and cheaper).  Forget the trailering, folding lifting keel shit, it just complicates and raises expenses and adds weight with too much compromise overall.  
 
Yes, a bit longer loa is more expensive for moorage but in the whole scheme of things if another $1200 a year in moorage breaks you, then you probably aren't really being competitive anyway, what with crew costs, beer, dinners, lunch, new sails, entry fees etc.  I've long since come to the conclusion that a few extra feet of slip cost is not something to worry about, unless you're looking at a shoe-string operation for a used $15k boat that you can only 'just' afford.  NTTAWWT.

Hit the nail on the head here! Stop complaining about the fixed sprit FFS. If you can't afford a 35' slip you can't afford to race competitively in a budding OD class of this size boat. Simple as that. I'm sure you could take it off if you were that concerned about it anyways... The boat looks sweet and I hope it takes off! Made in the US to boot. Someone down in Naptown take a photo of the specs at the C&C booth and post it up!

What?? The boat is 30 feet instead of 35 to keep costs down. If someone wanted to budget for a 35 footer they would buy a 35 footer. To say if you can't or don't want to budget for a 35 foot slip you won't be competitive in this class is to completely ignore basic budgeting and finance. Because if that's the case one might as well go home and race a laser.

I agree, a boat like this made in the US?? Who will they market it to??

Kinda silly actually, the Editor should get his Shaw 650 Fleet built first.



#54 entropy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 02:41 PM

Will from USWC here.  I can answer any questions you have...

First off, this isn't really conceived as a 'sportsboat'.  There are plenty of great sportsboats out there already.  This is going to be sporty as hell, but capable of, and designed to do, short/medium distance races too.  There are quite a few races that we'd like to sail that have a minimum length requirement of 30 feet, so 30 feet it is. The mummfarr comparison is pretty apt.  The 30 is still my favorite sailboat - we build 'em, but nobody wants to buy one anymore :-( .  Beating that boat is a steep, steep challenge.  That is the goal though.

After about my 200th W/L of the year, I'm pretty ready for some environment enrichment.  Tossing in a short overnighter with a bunch of my idiot buddies is a blast.  Those short / medium distance races are an area in the sport that is growing and there really isn't an awesome, fun, entry level boat.  We aren't pretending that this is a cruising boat at all, she's just a fun little raceboat.  We do enjoy sailing with women aboard, so it does have a head!

 

The fixed prod has a ton of advantages.  It's very stiff, so you can fly Code 0s off it.  As mentioned, two tack lines can be nice.  And... at speed it's really freakin' hard to keep water out of a retracting pole.    As far as slip space goes .... http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mIUk08iYZKE

 

The keel is fixed.  Structurally it just works better.  99% of the time, the boat lives at its home club, you can trailer with the keel attached. or, if you prefer, it is designed to go on and off pretty easily with a minimum of yard equipment needed.  For the one time a year when you want to tow it to Key West or cross-country it is pretty easy to pop it on and off, and go low rider.

 

The runners aren't really runners.  To have a real square-head main, you need 2 backstays.  There ain't a flicker that can toss the backstay over the top of that head!  The rig isn't going to fall down it the backstays are off.  

 

As far as it not looking like a C&C--  What does a C&C look like?  Is it a CCA boat like Red Jacket?  An IOR boat like many of the 70's and 80's boats?  The 29 was a stab at the MORC rule.  Is it really cruisey like a Landfall or less cruisey like Evergreen?  One of the cool things about C&C was they went with what was current and delivered race boats to the masses.  There were more IOR certificates issued for the 35 than for any other boat.

 

Designing boats to fit the current mode of yacht racing is EXACTLY what the C&C of yore did.  We’re just returning to those roots.  We might put the cove stripe on the boom for the traditionalists out there.

Construction is medium tech.  Vinylester, foam, glass, infused.  The cost / performance on a 30 footer make carbon a bit like tail fins on 50's cars.  There is carbon where it should be, there isn't carbon where it would just be a waste of dough.  

 

Just for reference, the price is a few grand less than the J/88.  I really doubt that there will be many people choosing between the two boats.  If you want this boat, you probably don't want an 88 and vice versa.

 

w

 

 

 

 



 



#55 nroose

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:33 PM

So, to clarify, The backstays should be used upwind, reaching, and downwind?  Or just upwind for forestay tension?  Or just upwind and downwind when it is over 15 kts of wind?

 

Nice boat, by the way!



#56 entropy

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:20 PM

So, to clarify, The backstays should be used upwind, reaching, and downwind?  Or just upwind for forestay tension?  Or just upwind and downwind when it is over 15 kts of wind?

 

Nice boat, by the way!

 

I haven't sailed it yet, so I'll be learning the tuning stuff along with everyone else.  My guess is that you'll use it like the backstay on every other boat... to flatten the main.  I admit, if it's 2 am, and there is big breeze with the kite up, I might snug it up on the sly-- regardless of what Hall and the other smart guys say!  



#57 fireball

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:42 AM

No, I would say wait for the Farr 28 which will be much better than this.

Farr 280 $120K before sails and electronics. 34' long with sprit

 

As a former multihull owner, I'd say that adding a hull is far, far more of a negative than a fixed sprit.  Much easier to fina a 35' slip than a 30' slip for an 18' beam (and cheaper).  Forget the trailering, folding lifting keel shit, it just complicates and raises expenses and adds weight with too much compromise overall.  

 

Yes, a bit longer loa is more expensive for moorage but in the whole scheme of things if another $1200 a year in moorage breaks you, then you probably aren't really being competitive anyway, what with crew costs, beer, dinners, lunch, new sails, entry fees etc.  I've long since come to the conclusion that a few extra feet of slip cost is not something to worry about, unless you're looking at a shoe-string operation for a used $15k boat that you can only 'just' afford.  NTTAWWT.

Hit the nail on the head here! Stop complaining about the fixed sprit FFS. If you can't afford a 35' slip you can't afford to race competitively in a budding OD class of this size boat. Simple as that. I'm sure you could take it off if you were that concerned about it anyways... The boat looks sweet and I hope it takes off! Made in the US to boot. Someone down in Naptown take a photo of the specs at the C&C booth and post it up!

Dude, that sprit costs around $1000 extra on the season slip fees at Constitution Marina. $1K goes a long way toward other things like regatta fees, the sail fund, etc. You've got a point, but it *is* and *should be* a consideration if they want to sell these to people who can't afford a Soto 40.

 

 

Read the post from USWC. The sprit is fixed for sailing, but detaches for docking.



#58 nroose

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:54 AM

There's this thing that people say around here...  If you can't afford this, then you can't afford that...  The thing is, once you pay for this, then you have less money for that.  It's not the case that if you have enough money for this, then you have enough for that...  You don't get money by spending it.  Once you spend money, then you don't have that money anymore to spend on something else.  If you buy a boat, people think you are rich.  If you buy a more expensive boat, then people think you are more rich.  But once you buy a boat, you are less rich than you were before you bought it, and once you buy a more expensive boat, you are even more less rich than you were before...



#59 nroose

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:55 AM

Read the post from USWC. The sprit is fixed for sailing, but detaches for docking.

I thought that was about a different boat.  My impression of this boat is that the sprit is built on, not bolted on.  And that has advantages and disadvantages.



#60 fireball

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:33 AM

Read the post from USWC. The sprit is fixed for sailing, but detaches for docking.

I thought that was about a different boat.  My impression of this boat is that the sprit is built on, not bolted on.  And that has advantages and disadvantages.

 

 

Don't think so. I think Ryley's got it right - the bowperson needs to take it off before docking. If they use the same system as other boats this should just involve one bolt and the bobstay.

 

At many clubs you can dock stern in and leave the sprit sticking out. Otherwise, it would be a PITA taking it off each time you dock.

 

But IMHO the alternative of a retractable pole would be worse.



#61 GregC

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 04:43 AM

I think that the way Will described sailing this boat sounds great, the general construction details sound realistic, and he's right about former C&C's (the Canadian versions) niche in the market, so the question is whether this design fits current market. I guess we can see how the J88 does to judge the weekender sportboat viability in the community, but I just bought Andrews 28 Hull #4 and I think it fits the same niche, maybe a bit roomier, so I'm not in the market now. Of course Sylvana went out of business after #4 if that's any indication....

Best of luck Will, Greg



#62 TBone

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:09 AM

I think that the way Will described sailing this boat sounds great, the general construction details sound realistic, and he's right about former C&C's (the Canadian versions) niche in the market, so the question is whether this design fits current market. I guess we can see how the J88 does to judge the weekender sportboat viability in the community, but I just bought Andrews 28 Hull #4 and I think it fits the same niche, maybe a bit roomier, so I'm not in the market now. Of course Sylvana went out of business after #4 if that's any indication....
Best of luck Will, Greg


Congratulations!

#63 Chris 249

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:59 AM

Missing at least one hull and foils.

We just saw the future, who wants the past, if we are talking abot racing, fast, and/ or fun.

Racing slow is demonstrably dead.

 

"Demonstrably dead"???

 

Have you actually looked at what people are buying and sailing recently?

 

By the way, in many places multihull numbers are now way down on what they were decades ago, as a proportion of racing fleets.



#64 dogwatch

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:48 AM

This is going to be sporty as hell, but capable of, and designed to do, short/medium distance races too.

Not a chance of that around here. Won't meet the stability numbers.

#65 Icedtea

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:35 AM

I'd say it'd get a good bit of interest- but the sprit will have to be bolt on/bolt off or retractable. 

 

I'd want the fixed (bolt-on) option as retracting and extending just adds weight and complexity, and it's one more thing to be doing at every hoist and drop



#66 Jetsam

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:13 PM

Remember that? Well this isn't that, but it is a rendering of the new C&C 30, designed by Mark Mills and to be built by US Watercraft. Around 3,300 lbs, diesel inboard, fixed sprit. Assuming a smart price point, is this boat something you would consider buying?

 

We could do a Cabo in that... Not enough headroom for Sean and Todd though!

Not enough headroom? I aint doing no cabo on a 30 foot boat. Not enough beer storage to distance ratio.



#67 Murphness

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:05 PM

No, I would say wait for the Farr 28 which will be much better than this.

Farr 280 $120K before sails and electronics. 34' long with sprit

 

>>>> 

As a former multihull owner, I'd say that adding a hull is far, far more of a negative than a fixed sprit.  Much easier to fina a 35' slip than a 30' slip for an 18' beam (and cheaper).  Forget the trailering, folding lifting keel shit, it just complicates and raises expenses and adds weight with too much compromise overall.  

 

Yes, a bit longer loa is more expensive for moorage but in the whole scheme of things if another $1200 a year in moorage breaks you, then you probably aren't really being competitive anyway, what with crew costs, beer, dinners, lunch, new sails, entry fees etc.  I've long since come to the conclusion that a few extra feet of slip cost is not something to worry about, unless you're looking at a shoe-string operation for a used $15k boat that you can only 'just' afford.  NTTAWWT.

Hit the nail on the head here! Stop complaining about the fixed sprit FFS. If you can't afford a 35' slip you can't afford to race competitively in a budding OD class of this size boat. Simple as that. I'm sure you could take it off if you were that concerned about it anyways... The boat looks sweet and I hope it takes off! Made in the US to boot. Someone down in Naptown take a photo of the specs at the C&C booth and post it up!

Dude, that sprit costs around $1000 extra on the season slip fees at Constitution Marina. $1K goes a long way toward other things like regatta fees, the sail fund, etc. You've got a point, but it *is* and *should be* a consideration if they want to sell these to people who can't afford a Soto 40.

 

Maybe for the used market. Some one who spends 120K on a raceboat should have an extra 1k wiggle room in their boat budget. If you can't squeeze that then you should not be in the 120K raceboat budget market group. Simple as that. 

 

To add to it, as has been illustrated, you can take the prod off at dock if you want to save that 1K...

 

People will continue to bitch about the price of and cost to run raceboats, but they aren't in the market for this type of boat. Simple as that. Buy a used cruiser racer if you care about the extra 1k slip fee... My bet is that the performance difference between this and the next boat with retractable sprit (say J88) and the comfort difference at same performance level (say GP26) are big enough to not care about 1k per year. Of course this is all speculation as i have no clue about what this boat can do. It's all the same argument though. The performance gained:price paid in initial and operating costs are well within the budget of whoever are looking at this type boat. Everyone else is a tire kicker...

 

Edit: A Soto 40 race budget is in the mid to high hundreds of thousands per year if not more (if you're on some sort of circuit), so thats a terrible analogy. My point is, if you're in the market for a brand spankin' new 30' race boat in the 120k range, that comes with the option of taking a shit down below, you're not concerned about the extra 1K a year in your total race budget...



#68 notallthere

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:49 PM

 

Remember that? Well this isn't that, but it is a rendering of the new C&C 30, designed by Mark Mills and to be built by US Watercraft. Around 3,300 lbs, diesel inboard, fixed sprit. Assuming a smart price point, is this boat something you would consider buying?

 

We could do a Cabo in that... Not enough headroom for Sean and Todd though!

Not enough headroom? I aint doing no cabo on a 30 foot boat. Not enough beer storage to distance ratio.

 

Hard booze for longer distances. Tastes better "tepid" (as Ed McCoy says) too. 



#69 dingyNV

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:51 PM

A fixed sprit on a 30 foot boat?! Makes me nervous about the thinking that went into the rest of the design.



#70 MidPack

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:24 PM

C&C had a tent in a good location at the Annapolis show on Monday at least, presumably all 5 days. But there was nothing there but 4 nicely done picture/renderings of future C&C boats on easels (including two of the boat in post #1) and an attractive nicely dressed (khaki skirt w white oxford shirt) young lady who appeared to be an actual sailor (not a model). And I am sure I walked by a half dozen times on my way to and from between boats and Painkillers and whatnot - and never saw anyone talking to her. Rut-row...

 

The S&S 30 wasn't getting any love at all either on Monday.

 

The masses were clamoring on/off the big catamarans and charter monos...I don't know why the reps put up with it, but I am sure the attendees love to dream.



#71 rantifarian

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:15 PM

So, the boat has been presented at the show then, can we get some useful numbers?



#72 MidPack

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:14 AM

So, the boat has been presented at the show then, can we get some useful numbers?

I didn't see anything but pictures, presumably the same ones as here http://www.c-cyachts.com. You could inquire at their email address...

#73 rantifarian

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:36 AM

So, the boat has been presented at the show then, can we get some useful numbers?

I didn't see anything but pictures, presumably the same ones as here http://www.c-cyachts.com. You could inquire at their email address...

Might have to, a single picture is a pretty shitty presentation at a boat show, no wonder no-one was stopping to talk!



#74 deep keel

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:18 AM

What numbers there are can't be beleived. 3300# is lighter than a Melges 32, 550# less than a Henderson 30, 1250# less than a Farr 30. Will says it's an E-glass infused hull. Only way to make that weight is to take it out of the keel. That leaves a keel weight of around 1200#. Even with a carbon fin with bulb, What stability do you have? Crew of 11-12? Will says they want a fixed sprit for a code 0? I suppose one could fly it in a drifter! Forget room at the dock, think about room on the starting line and around marks.
Somebody made a quick pretty picture is all.

#75 Peacefrog

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:34 AM

Ballast is around 1900 lbs. I have a full spec sheet and price sheet, all you need to do is ask and they are pretty open with it. Looks quite good only a couple things I think are un flash but that is normal :)

#76 fireball

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:01 AM

What's the displacement? The 3300lbs reported earlier seems too low.



#77 Mr. Andersen

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:19 PM

I'll just have my bowchick up there with a couple ratchets taking this thing on and off each time I dock. check.  :rolleyes:

Yea, I'd like to see how it breaks down. Can't be something too easy to do on a regular basis.

 

But it might be as easy as unshackle the stay and remove one bolt or fast pin and it pivots up to the headstay.



#78 Open60king

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:52 PM

yes



#79 deep keel

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:06 PM


Ballast is around 1900 lbs. I have a full spec sheet and price sheet, all you need to do is ask and they are pretty open with it. Looks quite good only a couple things I think are un flash but that is normal :)



#80 deep keel

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:13 PM

If the ballast is 1900, then 3300# all up leaves 1400# for everything else. Engine & accessories will be 200# and rig about 250. 900# for the rest?

The boat will come out about 4100# unless they chop ballast.

#81 Christian

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:17 AM

Prelim specs:

 

LOA 29.98 ft 9.14 m DISP 3,630 lb 1,650 kg

LWL 28.70 ft 8.75 m BAL 1,865 lb 846 kg

BEAM 9.84 ft 3.00 m RMC @20 8,818 ft/lb 1,222 kg/m

DRAFT 7.50 ft 2.30 m

RIG & SAILS

I: 40.02 ft 12.2 m Main Area: 355 sf 33.01 sm

J: 11.48 ft 3.58 m Jib Area: 255 sf 22.47 sm

P: 40.51 ft 12.35 m Spin Area: 1,297 sf 120.0 sm

E: 13.86 ft 4.35 m Upwind S/A: 610 sf 56.69 sm

STL: 15.14 ft 4.66 m DW S/A: 1,480 sf 137.55 sm

 

$125K

 

Helluva lot better than a J boat



#82 rantifarian

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:47 AM

If the ballast is 1900, then 3300# all up leaves 1400# for everything else. Engine & accessories will be 200# and rig about 250. 900# for the rest?

The boat will come out about 4100# unless they chop ballast.

Rig won't be 250 unless they make it from a telephone pole

 

Prelim specs:                                                                                       MummFarr specs

 

LOA 29.98 ft 9.14 m DISP 3,630 lb 1,650 kg                                 LOA 30.94 ft 9.43 m DISP 4548 lb 2063 kg

LWL 28.70 ft 8.75 m BAL 1,865 lb 846 kg                                     LWL 27.56 ft 8.4 m BAL 2095 lb 950 kg

BEAM 9.84 ft 3.00 m RMC @20 8,818 ft/lb 1,222 kg/m              BEAM 10.1 ft 3.07 m RMC N/A

DRAFT 7.50 ft 2.30 m                                                                       DRAFT 6.9 ft 2.10 m

RIG & SAILS

I: 40.02 ft 12.2 m Main Area: 355 sf 33.01 sm                              I: 38.29 ft 11.67 m Main Area:  400sf 35 sm

J: 11.48 ft 3.58 m Jib Area: 255 sf 22.47 sm                                J: 10.89 ft 3.32 m Jib Area:  232 sf  21 sm

P: 40.51 ft 12.35 m Spin Area: 1,297 sf 120.0 sm                      P: 40.55 ft 12.36 m Spin Area: 958sf  89sm

E: 13.86 ft 4.35 m Upwind S/A: 610 sf 56.69 sm                        E: 14.57 ft 4.44 m

STL: 15.14 ft 4.66 m DW S/A: 1,480 sf 137.55 sm                    

 

$125K

 

Helluva lot better than a J boat

Looks like damn good specs, I have copied the farr 30 specs on the right to compare. Its bloody deep for a 30' boat, and that is a fucking enormous chute



#83 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:01 AM

 

Read the post from USWC. The sprit is fixed for sailing, but detaches for docking.

I thought that was about a different boat.  My impression of this boat is that the sprit is built on, not bolted on.  And that has advantages and disadvantages.

 

Don't think so. I think Ryley's got it right - the bowperson needs to take it off before docking. If they use the same system as other boats this should just involve one bolt and the bobstay. 
At many clubs you can dock stern in and leave the sprit sticking out. Otherwise, it would be a PITA taking it off each time you dock. 
But IMHO the alternative of a retractable pole would be worse.

.
they can just HINGE it ! if the designer uses some grey matter
common on production trimarans, see the f-22, not groundbreaking ! The leadbelly - keelboat world is not known for picking up on things till its obvious tho

As Bill E Goat mentioned earlier the GTS43 Kerr does it
 
GTS43 : "A fixed bowsprit that can also hinge (for docking) flies asymmetric spinnakers"



#84 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:05 AM

If the ballast is 1900, then 3300# all up leaves 1400# for everything else. Engine & accessories will be 200# and rig about 250. 900# for the rest?

The boat will come out about 4100# unless they chop ballast.

 

I agree with you, very unlikely in a more robust offshore boat

 

The precedent that gets near your numbers ( ie everything else 1400  ) is the melges 32, but like you I don't think 'that light' is a reality here  



#85 nroose

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:39 AM

Prelim specs:

 

LOA 29.98 ft 9.14 m DISP 3,630 lb 1,650 kg

LWL 28.70 ft 8.75 m BAL 1,865 lb 846 kg

BEAM 9.84 ft 3.00 m RMC @20 8,818 ft/lb 1,222 kg/m

DRAFT 7.50 ft 2.30 m

RIG & SAILS

I: 40.02 ft 12.2 m Main Area: 355 sf 33.01 sm

J: 11.48 ft 3.58 m Jib Area: 255 sf 22.47 sm

P: 40.51 ft 12.35 m Spin Area: 1,297 sf 120.0 sm

E: 13.86 ft 4.35 m Upwind S/A: 610 sf 56.69 sm

STL: 15.14 ft 4.66 m DW S/A: 1,480 sf 137.55 sm

 

$125K

 

Helluva lot better than a J boat

So...  How do you calculate DW S/A?  This number is less than the main and spin added together.



#86 Christian

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:30 AM

I didn't calculate anything - those are the numbers from USW

Prelim specs:

 

LOA 29.98 ft 9.14 m DISP 3,630 lb 1,650 kg

LWL 28.70 ft 8.75 m BAL 1,865 lb 846 kg

BEAM 9.84 ft 3.00 m RMC @20 8,818 ft/lb 1,222 kg/m

DRAFT 7.50 ft 2.30 m

RIG & SAILS

I: 40.02 ft 12.2 m Main Area: 355 sf 33.01 sm

J: 11.48 ft 3.58 m Jib Area: 255 sf 22.47 sm

P: 40.51 ft 12.35 m Spin Area: 1,297 sf 120.0 sm

E: 13.86 ft 4.35 m Upwind S/A: 610 sf 56.69 sm

STL: 15.14 ft 4.66 m DW S/A: 1,480 sf 137.55 sm

 

$125K

 

Helluva lot better than a J boat

So...  How do you calculate DW S/A?  This number is less than the main and spin added together.



#87 mainsail33

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:31 PM

Morning.  This is Sarah from USWatercraft.  I just wanted to clear up a few facts in response to the thread regarding the new C&C 30. 

Annapolis Boat Show:

Yes, we had a killer location at the Annapolis Boat Show.  The Mills C&C 30 is new, in fact, we are just beginning the tooling process.  There was nothing to show but the drawings at that time.  This being said, the Annapolis Show was a last minute decision, and it was better to introduce the C&C 30 on posters than not at all.  Additionally, USWatercraft builds Alerion Yachts (amongst others), who was our neighbor at the show, and provided a good talking point about what USWatercraft is capable of in regards to boatbuilding and craftsmanship. 

We are developing the C&C Yachts website as we speak, and the deck tooling for the 30 will be started this week.  We will continue to feed you information on our development process through various media channels.  Our booth may not have appeared busy, but we have secured orders and look forward to the C&C 30 debut this spring!

Technical points:

Displacement is between 3,600 - 3,800lbs, the design is being finalized.   It is deep for a 30’ boat, which is why the limit of positive stability is around 140 degrees.   It is higher than the 115 - 120 degrees required by any offshore race in the world. This is a powerful boat.

 

The sprit will come off with a bit more effort than removing a spinnaker pole - about 30-40 seconds.  The pole will easily pivot up and out of the way.  Dock fees (for a larger than 30’ boat) and trailering concerns should be a non-issue.

 

The keel will retract into the hull for trailering - which will get the boat much lower than a Mumm 30, and as we know, Mumm 30s have been trailered all over the USA.

 

Comparisons to the Mumm 30 are welcome because, a.) the Mumm 30 is one of the greatest boats of all time, and b.) the guys who build the Mumm 30s are the same guys who will be building the C&C 30s. 

 

C&C Yachts looks forward to seeing you on the water this spring!

 

Sarah



#88 nroose

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 05:08 PM

Thanks, Sarah!  Nice!  Can't wait to see the finished product.



#89 StayinStrewn

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:31 PM

nice first post...spy shots of the tooling should suffice the SA crowd!!



#90 bloodshot

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:45 PM

i officially want one...money is another issue, but hey



#91 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:46 PM

Morning.  This is Sarah from USWatercraft.  I just wanted to clear up a few facts in response to the thread regarding the new C&C 30. 

Annapolis Boat Show:

Yes, we had a killer location at the Annapolis Boat Show.  The Mills C&C 30 is new, in fact, we are just beginning the tooling process.  There was nothing to show but the drawings at that time.  This being said, the Annapolis Show was a last minute decision, and it was better to introduce the C&C 30 on posters than not at all.  Additionally, USWatercraft builds Alerion Yachts (amongst others), who was our neighbor at the show, and provided a good talking point about what USWatercraft is capable of in regards to boatbuilding and craftsmanship. 

We are developing the C&C Yachts website as we speak, and the deck tooling for the 30 will be started this week.  We will continue to feed you information on our development process through various media channels.  Our booth may not have appeared busy, but we have secured orders and look forward to the C&C 30 debut this spring!

Technical points:

Displacement is between 3,600 - 3,800lbs, the design is being finalized.   It is deep for a 30’ boat, which is why the limit of positive stability is around 140 degrees.   It is higher than the 115 - 120 degrees required by any offshore race in the world. This is a powerful boat.

 

The sprit will come off with a bit more effort than removing a spinnaker pole - about 30-40 seconds.  The pole will easily pivot up and out of the way.  Dock fees (for a larger than 30’ boat) and trailering concerns should be a non-issue.

 

The keel will retract into the hull for trailering - which will get the boat much lower than a Mumm 30, and as we know, Mumm 30s have been trailered all over the USA.

 

Comparisons to the Mumm 30 are welcome because, a.) the Mumm 30 is one of the greatest boats of all time, and b.) the guys who build the Mumm 30s are the same guys who will be building the C&C 30s. 

 

C&C Yachts looks forward to seeing you on the water this spring!

 

Sarah

If the keel is going to lift that great but then one should put the rudder in a VARA ala m32



#92 TBone

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:43 PM

Do you want it to cost like an M32?

#93 deep keel

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:32 PM

Holy rust ball Batman, can this be right in the spec sheet? Fabricated STEEL Keel.

 

No wonder Millsey hasn't added any mention of C&C to his web site.



#94 Murphness

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:56 PM

Holy rust ball Batman, can this be right in the spec sheet? Fabricated STEEL Keel.

 

No wonder Millsey hasn't added any mention of C&C to his web site.

They do make stainless steel these days, Robin. They've also come a long way with barrier coats. 

 

Where's the tits? Getemout!



#95 deep keel

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:35 AM

Hey I'm just a Hooligan having MAX FUN!

Here are my Tits.

 

 

But we really don't have to worry with Barry Carroll overseeing every aspect of the build.

Attached Files



#96 Mambo Kings

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:22 PM

Will from USWC here.  I can answer any questions you have...

First off, this isn't really conceived as a 'sportsboat'.  There are plenty of great sportsboats out there already.  This is going to be sporty as hell, but capable of, and designed to do, short/medium distance races too.  There are quite a few races that we'd like to sail that have a minimum length requirement of 30 feet, so 30 feet it is. The mummfarr comparison is pretty apt.  The 30 is still my favorite sailboat - we build 'em, but nobody wants to buy one anymore :-( .  Beating that boat is a steep, steep challenge.  That is the goal though.

After about my 200th W/L of the year, I'm pretty ready for some environment enrichment.  Tossing in a short overnighter with a bunch of my idiot buddies is a blast.  Those short / medium distance races are an area in the sport that is growing and there really isn't an awesome, fun, entry level boat.  We aren't pretending that this is a cruising boat at all, she's just a fun little raceboat.  We do enjoy sailing with women aboard, so it does have a head!

 

The fixed prod has a ton of advantages.  It's very stiff, so you can fly Code 0s off it.  As mentioned, two tack lines can be nice.  And... at speed it's really freakin' hard to keep water out of a retracting pole.    As far as slip space goes .... http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mIUk08iYZKE

 

The keel is fixed.  Structurally it just works better.  99% of the time, the boat lives at its home club, you can trailer with the keel attached. or, if you prefer, it is designed to go on and off pretty easily with a minimum of yard equipment needed.  For the one time a year when you want to tow it to Key West or cross-country it is pretty easy to pop it on and off, and go low rider.

 

The runners aren't really runners.  To have a real square-head main, you need 2 backstays.  There ain't a flicker that can toss the backstay over the top of that head!  The rig isn't going to fall down it the backstays are off.  

 

As far as it not looking like a C&C--  What does a C&C look like?  Is it a CCA boat like Red Jacket?  An IOR boat like many of the 70's and 80's boats?  The 29 was a stab at the MORC rule.  Is it really cruisey like a Landfall or less cruisey like Evergreen?  One of the cool things about C&C was they went with what was current and delivered race boats to the masses.  There were more IOR certificates issued for the 35 than for any other boat.

 

Designing boats to fit the current mode of yacht racing is EXACTLY what the C&C of yore did.  We’re just returning to those roots.  We might put the cove stripe on the boom for the traditionalists out there.

Construction is medium tech.  Vinylester, foam, glass, infused.  The cost / performance on a 30 footer make carbon a bit like tail fins on 50's cars.  There is carbon where it should be, there isn't carbon where it would just be a waste of dough.  

 

Just for reference, the price is a few grand less than the J/88.  I really doubt that there will be many people choosing between the two boats.  If you want this boat, you probably don't want an 88 and vice versa.

 

w

 

 

 

 



 

 

I paid very little attention when this thread started. At first I thought "yet another 30 footer!".....but then I read Will's post and it got me thinking.

 

Here is a US builder/boat prep firm that many of us have done business with over the years. Here is a group of guys that have been racing sailboats with us when we were young crazies on the J24 circuit, still young and no less crazy on the Mumm 30s and now older, wiser and still a little crazy putting together their collective wisdom to put together a boat that they could see themselves racing for short medium distance racing or a run around the cans on Saturday afternoons or Thursday evenings.  If it is the boat that they would like to sail............then it really could be a boat that a lot of us would like to sail.

 

So I read Will's post and I found myself nodding my head in subconscious agreement.  

 

This boat is getting design input from a group of sailors whose judgment I trust and from the same group of sailors  who will build the boat. Importantly, from a builder who has shown that they know how to stay in business and honor their checks for over 30 years now. 

 

I am as happy as a pig in clover racing one design in my Viper, but I would like a boat to race on Thursday evenings at Vespers. I would like to do some short distance races on LIS.  I'm thinking that I will take a look at this boat.

 

The detachable rather then retractable sprit really appeals. When I go up to a 30 footer, I want a dry boat and a stiff sprit.

I see there is some discussion about whether to go for detachable or retractable keel (comparing sarah's post to will's post). I will only comment that I see many of the J70s buying "high bunk" trailers and leaving the keel locked in the down position.  Retractable keels work on 20'-24' boats, but there gets to be a tipping point as the boats get larger.....I'm just not sure where that is. I don't sail enough in this size range to have a view yet. I'm not sure I like the idea of a keel trunk taking up what little overnight space there is in the cabin. 

 

Anyway, good luck with all this. 



#97 Mambo Kings

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:40 PM

Oh, and I also find myself interested in the J88 so I'm curious about your statement that the same person wouldn't look at both boats.



#98 Left Hook

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:14 PM

Bet you'll find the 30 will be a whole lot more like the Viper.

 

Noticing in the deck layout that there isn't really a dedicated winch for the pit. Not complaining but it seems like the stb primary could get a little crowded if it has to serve dual duties.

 

Will we see one in time for KWRW?



#99 Varan

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:40 AM

Will from USWC here.  I can answer any questions you have...
First off, this isn't really conceived as a 'sportsboat'.  There are plenty of great sportsboats out there already.  This is going to be sporty as hell, but capable of, and designed to do, short/medium distance races too.  There are quite a few races that we'd like to sail that have a minimum length requirement of 30 feet, so 30 feet it is. The mummfarr comparison is pretty apt.  The 30 is still my favorite sailboat - we build 'em, but nobody wants to buy one anymore :-( .  Beating that boat is a steep, steep challenge.  That is the goal though.
After about my 200th W/L of the year, I'm pretty ready for some environment enrichment.  Tossing in a short overnighter with a bunch of my idiot buddies is a blast.  Those short / medium distance races are an area in the sport that is growing and there really isn't an awesome, fun, entry level boat.  We aren't pretending that this is a cruising boat at all, she's just a fun little raceboat.  We do enjoy sailing with women aboard, so it does have a head!
 
The fixed prod has a ton of advantages.  It's very stiff, so you can fly Code 0s off it.  As mentioned, two tack lines can be nice.  And... at speed it's really freakin' hard to keep water out of a retracting pole.    As far as slip space goes .... http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mIUk08iYZKE
 
The keel is fixed.  Structurally it just works better.  99% of the time, the boat lives at its home club, you can trailer with the keel attached. or, if you prefer, it is designed to go on and off pretty easily with a minimum of yard equipment needed.  For the one time a year when you want to tow it to Key West or cross-country it is pretty easy to pop it on and off, and go low rider.
 
The runners aren't really runners.  To have a real square-head main, you need 2 backstays.  There ain't a flicker that can toss the backstay over the top of that head!  The rig isn't going to fall down it the backstays are off.  
 
As far as it not looking like a C&C--  What does a C&C look like?  Is it a CCA boat like Red Jacket?  An IOR boat like many of the 70's and 80's boats?  The 29 was a stab at the MORC rule.  Is it really cruisey like a Landfall or less cruisey like Evergreen?  One of the cool things about C&C was they went with what was current and delivered race boats to the masses.  There were more IOR certificates issued for the 35 than for any other boat.
 
Designing boats to fit the current mode of yacht racing is EXACTLY what the C&C of yore did.  Were just returning to those roots.  We might put the cove stripe on the boom for the traditionalists out there.
Construction is medium tech.  Vinylester, foam, glass, infused.  The cost / performance on a 30 footer make carbon a bit like tail fins on 50's cars.  There is carbon where it should be, there isn't carbon where it would just be a waste of dough.  
 
Just for reference, the price is a few grand less than the J/88.  I really doubt that there will be many people choosing between the two boats.  If you want this boat, you probably don't want an 88 and vice versa.
 
w
 
 
 
 

 

 
I paid very little attention when this thread started. At first I thought "yet another 30 footer!".....but then I read Will's post and it got me thinking.
 
Here is a US builder/boat prep firm that many of us have done business with over the years. Here is a group of guys that have been racing sailboats with us when we were young crazies on the J24 circuit, still young and no less crazy on the Mumm 30s and now older, wiser and still a little crazy putting together their collective wisdom to put together a boat that they could see themselves racing for short medium distance racing or a run around the cans on Saturday afternoons or Thursday evenings.  If it is the boat that they would like to sail............then it really could be a boat that a lot of us would like to sail.
 
So I read Will's post and I found myself nodding my head in subconscious agreement.  
 
This boat is getting design input from a group of sailors whose judgment I trust and from the same group of sailors  who will build the boat. Importantly, from a builder who has shown that they know how to stay in business and honor their checks for over 30 years now. 
 
I am as happy as a pig in clover racing one design in my Viper, but I would like a boat to race on Thursday evenings at Vespers. I would like to do some short distance races on LIS.  I'm thinking that I will take a look at this boat.
 
The detachable rather then retractable sprit really appeals. When I go up to a 30 footer, I want a dry boat and a stiff sprit.
I see there is some discussion about whether to go for detachable or retractable keel (comparing sarah's post to will's post). I will only comment that I see many of the J70s buying "high bunk" trailers and leaving the keel locked in the down position.  Retractable keels work on 20'-24' boats, but there gets to be a tipping point as the boats get larger.....I'm just not sure where that is. I don't sail enough in this size range to have a view yet. I'm not sure I like the idea of a keel trunk taking up what little overnight space there is in the cabin. 
 
Anyway, good luck with all this. 
Fixed versus retracting keel... travelled a bit with a J80 and FT10, and while the FT was easier to ramp launch, I still prefer fixed keels to a point. The extra time spent blocking wheels and using a rope to ramp launch the fixy is more than offset by the time spent diddling with the keel (especially if you have the original FT chain hoist). It is, however, a bit more intimidating working on deck of a fixy when it's on the trailer. We launch the FT with the mast already up, not so with the fix keelers. The keel trunk really is intrusive and it sure is a lot easier to work on the bottom of a fixed keel boat if you don't have a proper hoist of your own. Retracting keels are also more prone to damage, as we discovered a few too many times with the M24. Also ramped launched a J90 and that is about as deep of draft most of the ramps we use can handle. All considered, my preference would be the fixed keel. Same applies to the GP26. Now if we could just make these things more affordable for us ordinary, regular types.

#100 pqbon

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:36 PM

 

Will from USWC here.  I can answer any questions you have...
First off, this isn't really conceived as a 'sportsboat'.  There are plenty of great sportsboats out there already.  This is going to be sporty as hell, but capable of, and designed to do, short/medium distance races too.  There are quite a few races that we'd like to sail that have a minimum length requirement of 30 feet, so 30 feet it is. The mummfarr comparison is pretty apt.  The 30 is still my favorite sailboat - we build 'em, but nobody wants to buy one anymore :-( .  Beating that boat is a steep, steep challenge.  That is the goal though.
After about my 200th W/L of the year, I'm pretty ready for some environment enrichment.  Tossing in a short overnighter with a bunch of my idiot buddies is a blast.  Those short / medium distance races are an area in the sport that is growing and there really isn't an awesome, fun, entry level boat.  We aren't pretending that this is a cruising boat at all, she's just a fun little raceboat.  We do enjoy sailing with women aboard, so it does have a head!
 
The fixed prod has a ton of advantages.  It's very stiff, so you can fly Code 0s off it.  As mentioned, two tack lines can be nice.  And... at speed it's really freakin' hard to keep water out of a retracting pole.    As far as slip space goes .... http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mIUk08iYZKE
 
The keel is fixed.  Structurally it just works better.  99% of the time, the boat lives at its home club, you can trailer with the keel attached. or, if you prefer, it is designed to go on and off pretty easily with a minimum of yard equipment needed.  For the one time a year when you want to tow it to Key West or cross-country it is pretty easy to pop it on and off, and go low rider.
 
The runners aren't really runners.  To have a real square-head main, you need 2 backstays.  There ain't a flicker that can toss the backstay over the top of that head!  The rig isn't going to fall down it the backstays are off.  
 
As far as it not looking like a C&C--  What does a C&C look like?  Is it a CCA boat like Red Jacket?  An IOR boat like many of the 70's and 80's boats?  The 29 was a stab at the MORC rule.  Is it really cruisey like a Landfall or less cruisey like Evergreen?  One of the cool things about C&C was they went with what was current and delivered race boats to the masses.  There were more IOR certificates issued for the 35 than for any other boat.
 
Designing boats to fit the current mode of yacht racing is EXACTLY what the C&C of yore did.  Were just returning to those roots.  We might put the cove stripe on the boom for the traditionalists out there.
Construction is medium tech.  Vinylester, foam, glass, infused.  The cost / performance on a 30 footer make carbon a bit like tail fins on 50's cars.  There is carbon where it should be, there isn't carbon where it would just be a waste of dough.  
 
Just for reference, the price is a few grand less than the J/88.  I really doubt that there will be many people choosing between the two boats.  If you want this boat, you probably don't want an 88 and vice versa.
 
w
 
 
 
 

 

 
I paid very little attention when this thread started. At first I thought "yet another 30 footer!".....but then I read Will's post and it got me thinking.
 
Here is a US builder/boat prep firm that many of us have done business with over the years. Here is a group of guys that have been racing sailboats with us when we were young crazies on the J24 circuit, still young and no less crazy on the Mumm 30s and now older, wiser and still a little crazy putting together their collective wisdom to put together a boat that they could see themselves racing for short medium distance racing or a run around the cans on Saturday afternoons or Thursday evenings.  If it is the boat that they would like to sail............then it really could be a boat that a lot of us would like to sail.
 
So I read Will's post and I found myself nodding my head in subconscious agreement.  
 
This boat is getting design input from a group of sailors whose judgment I trust and from the same group of sailors  who will build the boat. Importantly, from a builder who has shown that they know how to stay in business and honor their checks for over 30 years now. 
 
I am as happy as a pig in clover racing one design in my Viper, but I would like a boat to race on Thursday evenings at Vespers. I would like to do some short distance races on LIS.  I'm thinking that I will take a look at this boat.
 
The detachable rather then retractable sprit really appeals. When I go up to a 30 footer, I want a dry boat and a stiff sprit.
I see there is some discussion about whether to go for detachable or retractable keel (comparing sarah's post to will's post). I will only comment that I see many of the J70s buying "high bunk" trailers and leaving the keel locked in the down position.  Retractable keels work on 20'-24' boats, but there gets to be a tipping point as the boats get larger.....I'm just not sure where that is. I don't sail enough in this size range to have a view yet. I'm not sure I like the idea of a keel trunk taking up what little overnight space there is in the cabin. 
 
Anyway, good luck with all this. 
Fixed versus retracting keel... travelled a bit with a J80 and FT10, and while the FT was easier to ramp launch, I still prefer fixed keels to a point. The extra time spent blocking wheels and using a rope to ramp launch the fixy is more than offset by the time spent diddling with the keel (especially if you have the original FT chain hoist). It is, however, a bit more intimidating working on deck of a fixy when it's on the trailer. We launch the FT with the mast already up, not so with the fix keelers. The keel trunk really is intrusive and it sure is a lot easier to work on the bottom of a fixed keel boat if you don't have a proper hoist of your own. Retracting keels are also more prone to damage, as we discovered a few too many times with the M24. Also ramped launched a J90 and that is about as deep of draft most of the ramps we use can handle. All considered, my preference would be the fixed keel. Same applies to the GP26. Now if we could just make these things more affordable for us ordinary, regular types.

 

I have a fixed keel boat and in general it isn't a big deal -- until we hit a race where the ramp isn't long enough. After Jazz cup this year we had to wait for high tide to load the boat on the trailer.






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