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Volvo MD6A Weird Problem


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#1 cjmcfall

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:13 PM

I've got a new-to-me Carter 33 with a Volvo MD6A 10hp. The engine starts and runs like a champ, with one hitch - the starter won't turn off!? Seriously, if I have any power running into the system, the starter tries to start the engine. The only way to make it stop is by turning the perko switch to the "off" position. Any thoughts?

I've tried detaching the ignition switch completely and it still tries to start. I've tried it with the key in the start position, off, accessory, etc. and no difference.

From what I can tell (talking to the pervious owner), this has never happened before - and I trust him. 

One culprit I can think of is that, a week ago, we did manually start the engine using the crank handle.  I'm worried we didn't have the ignition key in the "on" position.  We only ran the engine for about 30 seconds and shut it down using the kill switch. I'n not sure if this could cause such as issue or is it just an unlucky coincidence, but the issue starter the VERY next time we started the engine.  But what's weird is that engine ran normally a few days ago, between the time I manually started the engine and yesterday.

Help please, any thoughts or suggestions?!?
 
This boat was recently donated to a youth sailing program that I'm affiliated with. We plan on spending the winter season getting her ship shape and ready for her inaugural season, but didn't anticipate a lot of engine troubles, especially not yet.
 
And because everyone likes pictures:1381185_594344213955848_659367458_n.jpg
1393904_594344250622511_306751957_n.jpg


#2 Moonduster

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:40 PM

Sounds like a wiring problem that is energizing the solenoid. Could also be a problem in the solenoid itself or even in the ignition switch. I'd check the wiring from the solenoid carefully.

 

If the wiring looks ok, I'd try pulling the Solenoid wire off the ignition switch at the switch once the engine has started. If that solves the problem, it's the switch. If it doesn't solve the problem, then it's probably the solenoid.

 

Good luck!



#3 silent bob

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:49 PM

Sounds like a wiring problem that is energizing the solenoid. Could also be a problem in the solenoid itself or even in the ignition switch. I'd check the wiring from the solenoid carefully.

 

If the wiring looks ok, I'd try pulling the Solenoid wire off the ignition switch at the switch once the engine has started. If that solves the problem, it's the switch. If it doesn't solve the problem, then it's probably the solenoid.

 

Good luck!

 

+1.  Sounds logical to me.



#4 cjmcfall

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:50 AM

Moonduster,

 

Thanks for that.  In which position should I have the key switch in when removing the wire?  

 

So if I follow your logic I should:

 

1) start the engine

2) keep/have the key switch in (??) position

3) remove the solenoid wire off the ignition

do I now:

4) shut the engine down and THEN replace the wire back on the ignition switch

or

4) replace the wire back on the switch while the engine is still running - then shut it down

 

And I believe I have four wires coming from the ignition switch, any idea which is the solenoid wire?  Or where is it located on the starter so I can follow it to the switch?

 

Do my questions make any sense?  Thanks again for the help!



#5 Moonduster

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:09 AM

Start the engine and then release the key so that the ignition switch rotates back to the "run" position. This is when you say the starter continues to run, which should mean the solenoid is energized. Pull the solenoid wire off the back of the ignition key. If the starter stops, then the switch is the problem.

 

Good luck!



#6 Moonduster

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:22 AM

You'll have to find the color code of the medium sized wire at the solenoid itself and then you can probably find that same color code at the switch.

 

Most ignition switches have three-letter acronyms like BAT for battery, ACC for accessories and so on in the plastic near the lugs to which the wires connect. You should be able to figure it out that way, too. It's usually the IGN (ignition) or some such thing. You should be able to figure it out from the Volvo manual, too. They usually have wiring diagrams with color codes.

 

Alternately, you'll have to have everything turned off and use an ohm meter.

 

I found the manual here. The wiring diagram is on page 30 and 31. Page 31 is the key switch version of the panel and it suggests a green wire. But it's hard to know if your boat has the Volvo instrument panel or which version. I'd check carefully, although pulling any wire off the ignition switch shouldn't hurt anything. Might be worth pulling it off first and trying to start the engine and seeing that it won't start. If it won't, you either pulled off the battery wire or the ignition wire. You can figure out which with a volt meter.

 

Good luck!



#7 cjmcfall

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:09 PM

Ok, that seems like a logical solution. I'm not headed down to the boat until later this week.  I'll know more then.  Thanks for all the help and I'll keep ya posted.



#8 cjmcfall

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:59 PM

I was able to get away today and head to the boat.  My first attempt to diagnose the issue was to isolate the ignition switch, to determine if the problem was further up stream of if I need a new key switch.  With the engine running I removed the wires from the ignition, and nothing changed.  It seemed that this meant the issue might be in the solenoid of the starter (as stated above).  
 
I removed the starter / generator from the engine and took it to be tested.  NO issue with the starter, however this particular model doesn't have a solenoid, but the starter motor worked as it should.  
 
My next step was to follow the positive cable from the starter, as a mechanic told me there is a pretty good chance the solenoid is external and between the starter motor and the key switch -- BINGO!  
 
On the lazarette bulkhead I found this:
 
0%20332%20002%20156b.png
 
All signs are pointing to this little devil being the culprit of my problem.  It's a $30 dollar part, and when dealing with a Volvo, that ain't bad! 
 
I was able to bypass this solenoid / relay and I'm now getting power to the starter - As I should.  Now, I won't know for sure if this is the only fault in the system until I replace it and try again but that's for another day.


#9 Moonduster

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:22 AM

Wow, I can't believe there's remote relay rather than a solenoid for the starter. Congratulations on tracking it all down. Now go sailing!



#10 Diarmuid

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:42 PM

cjmcfall: do you have a wiring diagram/owner's manual for the MD6A? It and the more technical workshop manual are available free on the web. May need to experiment a bit to find the latter in English, but it's out there.

 

Moonduster: the reason there is a remote relay rather than a solenoid is the typical MD6A has a Bosch Dynastart starter/dynamo belted to the flywheel -- no Bendix gear.



#11 IStream

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 03:12 PM

If your starter's been engaged with a running engine for long, you may find that the symptom re-appears after a while. Once the pinion shaft gets scored, the pinion won't slide in and out freely and it'll stay engaged longer and longer with each start until it finally stays engaged for good. At that point, the solution is a new starter.



#12 cjmcfall

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:53 PM

 
Diarmud, I do have the manual and wiring diagram.  It's been a lot of help and it's now in protective sheets in a binder at the nav. table.
 
So I'm having trouble finding the same unit (not surprisingly!). I've been searching high and low, but I can't seem to find it. 

The part I need is this:
Bosch 0 332 002 155
http://rb-aa.bosch.c....33&prod_id=842

But I can only find this part:
Bosh 0 332 002 156
http://rb-aa.bosch.c....33&prod_id=114

My question is this: Can I use the ...156 in place of the ...155 part? There are a few differences (ie, resistive load, response release voltage, etc.),
but how will this effect the system? I am a civil engineer, not an electrical engineer so this really isn't in my wheel house!

If you're interested I've found some back history to my situation:http://www.oldmarine..../5/132669.html


#13 Diarmuid

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 04:08 AM

Try these cross listings:

 

http://www.reparts.n.../bos-0332002155

 

Volvo PN available here:

 

http://www.marinepar...y=&mfgno=838518

 

Or brutally at Torresons:

 

http://shop.toadmari...enta&sku=838518

 

May want to ensure it's the right part.



#14 cjmcfall

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 11:45 AM

Diarmuid - Thanks for that. Funny how when Volvo prints their name on the part it becomes significantly more expensive (but again, not surprisingly) 



#15 Moonduster

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:22 PM

Hi,

 

You can order that relay online from any of a number of sources. Just Google "tyco v23232 a0001 x003". The relay is available in three flavors - 50, 75 and 100 amps. Yours is the 75 Amp flavor. You can use that or the 100 amp version with no concerns.

 

I tend to use Digikey quite a bit because I have an account there. They're quick and reliable but a bit expensive in low volume. They want $53 for the relay. Here's another source selling at $30, but I have no experience with them.

 

Good luck!



#16 cjmcfall

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 10:44 PM

Moonduster,  Thanks for that, but again those are items both the ...156 part number NOT the ...155 which came off the boat.  Can you tell me if it'll be an issue using this relay?



#17 Moonduster

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:11 AM

Ok. This is interesting. The Tyco part number is the same for both flavors of the Bosch part. The Bosch 155 part is rated for 75A. The Bosch 156 part is also rated for 75A and it is also rated for continuous duty. Continuous duty means that the relay won't overheat and fail if it's energized for extended periods of time.

 

I can't find any place online to get a detailed specification of the 155 part. I'd like to see what it's duty cycle rating is because that would say something like 10%, one minute max. Meaning that for every unit time it's energized, it needs to be deenergized in order to cool and that it should never be energized for more than one minute and, if it is, it needs to cool for 10 minutes. I'm just making those numbers up - but it would be nice to know.

 

Given its application on your boat, I wouldn't think that continuous duty would be important - but it sure would be nice to see the specification.

 

That the Tyco number is cross referenced to both of Bosch the parts would suggest the Tyco part is rated for continuous duty. I can't find a Tyco specification, but the text in the ad here says that the Tyco part is rated for continuous duty.

 

I'd put the Tyco part in if it were my boat.

 

Good luck!



#18 whinging pom

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:36 AM

IIRC the MD6A has a dynastart rather than a proper starter motor.



#19 cjmcfall

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:01 PM

All right, the Tyco part has my vote now.  Besides the continuous duty aspect of the tyco, the only differences I can find between Bosch's ..155 and ...156 are as follows:

 

Resistive load Short-time load < 1s:

155: 400

156: 250

 

Response/release voltage:

155: < 9.5/0.5...4.0

156: < 8.5/1.0...4.0

 

Response/release time:

155: <10/<10

156: <10/<15

 

Overall resistance:

155:  46 +/- 3

156: 46  +/- 5

 

Are any of these numbers cause for concern?  I'd sure hate to fry the dynastart!

 

Thanks again for your help here!



#20 Moonduster

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:08 PM

All of those specifications are about the activation of the solenoid switch - basically what's seen in the key-switch side of the circuit, and nothing about what happens on the starter side of the circuit. Again, were it my boat, I'd go for it.

 

Good luck!



#21 cjmcfall

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:55 PM

To follow up with this issue.  I was at the boat yesterday and replaced the relay with Bosh part# 0 332 002 156.  BINGO!  The old relay was the issue.  The new one worked as it should have.  
 
After thinking about how I may have caused this issue (so history hopefully won't repeat itself), I've come to the conclusion that I fried the old relay when I started the engine with the crank handle and forgot to turn on the key.  The dumb thing is that I didn't need to start the engine with the crank - curiosity killed the cat.  
 
Anyway, thanks for your help and although, Volvo md6's are becoming increasingly rare, hopefully someone will find this conclusion helpful. 


#22 Diarmuid

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 09:31 PM

To follow up with this issue.  I was at the boat yesterday and replaced the relay with Bosh part# 0 332 002 156.  BINGO!  The old relay was the issue.  The new one worked as it should have.  
 
After thinking about how I may have caused this issue (so history hopefully won't repeat itself), I've come to the conclusion that I fried the old relay when I started the engine with the crank handle and forgot to turn on the key.  The dumb thing is that I didn't need to start the engine with the crank - curiosity killed the cat.  
 
Anyway, thanks for your help and although, Volvo md6's are becoming increasingly rare, hopefully someone will find this conclusion helpful. 

I have!:) Thanks for following up.  If we can milk 3-4 seasons out of our MD6A, that's all we're asking. May toss a Bosch relay into the spares kit.

 

Is your alternator charging properly? Having the key off can cook its regulator, too. Yay, redundancy; boo, more stuff to break.:(






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