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B&G 64 bit driver - will there ever be one?


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#1 us7070

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:47 PM

i really need a new laptop, and it's pretty hard to get one that's not 64 bit

 

i sail on several different boats, and most have gone with the serial out from the processor

 

on those boats i use a serial to USB adapter, because my laptop doesn't have a serial port.

 

but some boats use USB out...

 

if i get on a boat that has USB H-link out of the processor, and I have a 64 bit laptop..., is there anything I can do to connect.., short of changing it to serial out?

 

is there anything i can attach to the USB cable coming out of the processor that will enable me to get B&G into expedition without a driver?

 

i have seen a reference to a 64 bit driver, not from B&G - maybe from the chip maker - that supposedly works.

 

how many people are doing this?

 

will there ever be a 64 bit driver from B&G?



#2 NewLeaf

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:07 PM

Chances are that we will not have one, they do not even have plans to upgrade Deckman. There are the native drivers by the chip manufacturer which I posted in another link. do a search and you should be able to find them.



#3 mustang__1

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:23 PM

What about running xp virtually? Not sure how it functions with hardware verses software, but I have had success with some prpgrams that were 32bit only. You need windows7pro for it to work.

#4 NewLeaf

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:13 PM

an option but the usb bridging sometimes does not work and causes the instruments to freeze. I think the best options is to use the native drivers, but your experience might be different.



#5 us7070

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:26 PM

an option but the usb bridging sometimes does not work and causes the instruments to freeze. I think the best options is to use the native drivers, but your experience might be different.

 

so your experience with that 64 bit driver has been good?

 

i guess it doesn't show up as B&G in the device manager,.

 

is it still discoverable by Expedition in the normal way?



#6 NewLeaf

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:26 PM

do a search for D2XX CDM and use the divers that fit your needs. they are the OEM drivers for the H3k.



#7 ShockValue

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 04:39 AM

You can install Win7-32Bit on 64 bit hardware.  That's what we did to get a WTP1/Deckman working.



#8 Gouvernail

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:06 AM

Seems like a dedicated sailing laptop makes sense

Around here we have lots of stores where older but unused laptops are sold for absurdly low prices .
http://www.discounte...san-antonio.php

#9 us7070

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

You can install Win7-32Bit on 64 bit hardware.  That's what we did to get a WTP1/Deckman working.

 

i didn't know that

 

but i guess you have to find 32 bit drivers for all the hardware - i'd be a bit concerned about that.



#10 us7070

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:17 PM

Seems like a dedicated sailing laptop makes sense

Around here we have lots of stores where older but unused laptops are sold for absurdly low prices .
http://www.discounte...san-antonio.php

 

i typically do buy a refurb for navigation  - but now it's getting to the point that 32 bit laptops are maybe a bit older that I want to get.

 

it would be one thing if it was a laptop that stayed on a boat and did nothing else - but i navigate on other people's boats, and this laptop has to do everything for me - especially when i am traveling.



#11 NewLeaf

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 04:19 PM

Try the drivers I told you, they are the OEM's and work even in windows 8 64.



#12 evenflow

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:43 PM

Try the forum at www.panbo.com - While the SA folks are generally excellent, Panbo is for the sailing electronics geeks!



#13 Moonduster

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:09 PM

64-bit PC processors are entirely compatible with 32-bit PC operating systems. You can install XP or the 32-bit versions of Win 7 or 8 on a 64-bit PC.

 

However, a 64-bit PC operating system requires that all supervisor mode software be 64-bit aware. This means that one needs a 32-bit driver for use with a 32-bit OS and a 64-bit driver for use with a 64-bit OS. No single binary of the driver can work with both flavors of OS.

 

The drivers to which Newleaf refers are for the FTDI Serial-to-USB chips. These are pretty good, low cost chips used by lots of suppliers and they have both 32-bit and 64-bit drivers. I'm not sure whether they're the device used by B&G. It can't hurt to install them and see if they work.

 

You can find out the Manufacture of the USB interface device by connecting the device and using the Device Manager to look at the properties for the device. An internet search might turn up drivers if it's not the FTDI device.

 

Good luck!



#14 us7070

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:37 PM

i will probably get a 64 bit laptop, and try the FTDI driver.

 

I assume it's the virtual com port driver that i want - right?

 

Moonduster - i don't totally understand what you are saying.., but it appears that you are confirming  that if i were to install a 32 bit OS on a 64 bit machine, i would have to find 32 bit drivers for all the hardware.

 

i am thinking that this would be difficult at best, and that it could be that there aren't 32 bit drivers for each hardware item on a brand new laptop model...

 

if the FTDI driver doesn't work, I will just get the boats in question to switch to serial out from the B&G, as most boats are doing now.



#15 NewLeaf

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:35 PM

The drivers to which Newleaf refers are for the FTDI Serial-to-USB chips. These are pretty good, low cost chips used by lots of suppliers and they have both 32-bit and 64-bit drivers. I'm not sure whether they're the device used by B&G.

 

That's is simple, open your low cost (sarcastic here) B&G H3000 CPU and just take a look....B&G uses low cost components, which does not mean bad, but for sure not designed for surviving too long I a marine environment or for reliable instrumentation like an CPU that feeds data to autopilot for example.... 

 

Try the drivers, they are for the B&G cpu because the FTDI are a significant part of the B&G H3000 and 2000 CPUs



#16 Moonduster

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:42 PM

US7070,

 

Yes, that's correct. You'll need 32-bit drivers for all your devices. For the PC itself, those drivers will be part of the OS distribution. For most of your peripherals, they will also be part of the OS distribution. Some you'll have to track down.

 

New Leaf,

 

The drivers are not for the CPU in the B&G H3000, they're for the communications devices that are on the board and connected to the CPU. Their significance is ... well ... insignificant. There's nothing about the FTDI components that is not suitable for high-reliability operation. Nor do I believe there's any problem with any of the components used by B&G. Their software, of late, is an entirely different story.



#17 NewLeaf

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:10 AM

You are right, (I get it that for some reason you need to correct everything I say :wub:  but that is ok because at least you get the point even when English is not even my 3r language), in the sense that I said H3000 CPU, but that is how they "B&G" names it, while I referred to the "CPU" it was in the contest of "that feeds data to autopilot for example" as in any processing platform, there isn't much processing of data if there is no data feed-communication.

 

As a matter of fact one of the biggest B&G's problems is their data feed, processing where the FTDI chips play a role. It is not a coincidence that Bravo, Cosworth, FaRo, and the most sophisticated racing programs do not use B&G's Hlink and replace the displays firmware with their own and have no issues displaying as data streams as they need as fast as they have.

 

Not that FTDI chips are bad but they are not the most appropriate for marine use but what do know, just my opinion; but I guess it does not matter since B&G can't program them :ph34r:.

 

But putting less than the best quality of any component in a $4000-$7000-5Hz computer with some mid 60s-70s intellectual property is just a rip-off.

 

Just like the bus terminators; B&G makes you terminate each bus with a 5 cent piece of hardware exposed to the elements which can kill all your instruments if they fail or break. Are you telling me that they can't code or even use a jumper in the displays to do this? the Sake of the heavens! Raymarine can!

Pretty amazing they can get away with it.



#18 Miles

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:03 PM

 It is not a coincidence that Bravo, Cosworth, FaRo, and the most sophisticated racing programs do not use B&G's Hlink and replace the displays firmware with their own and have no issues displaying as data streams as they need as fast as they have.

Not to get into a pissing war with you again Astolfo, but this is complete and utter bullshit.  

 

All of these systems use the B&G Fastnet and H3000 displays to display data as fast as it is needed.  None of them have their own display firmware for the B&G displays, it would be a complete waste of time and money for the 1 guy who develops FaRo to spend his time also developing firmware for the B&G displays.   

 

I'm not going to defend Fastnet, it's almost 30 years old, and need replacing.  My point is more that you should get your facts right, and stop making things up.



#19 NoSurrender

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 08:03 PM

What is amazing is that the 3000 cpu does not output nmea 2000 to the displays, when navico already have 20 20s for zeus now....working in nmea 2000...it is a way of keeping double pricing standards it seems to me. I guess an h3000 update must be round the corner?

#20 NewLeaf

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

What is amazing is that the 3000 cpu does not output nmea 2000 to the displays, when navico already have 20 20s for zeus now....working in nmea 2000...it is a way of keeping double pricing standards it seems to me. I guess an h3000 update must be round the corner?

It is going to be called the world leading sailing instrument, H4000 BPU;  H for Humiliating, 4000 for the number of bugs B&G will not fix, and last but not least BPU for Bug Processing Unit.

 

Then sold to unsuspecting buyers for $1 a bug. :ph34r:

 

Oh come on! I am just kidding B&G...



#21 NewLeaf

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:46 PM

The answer is all around you Miles. And NO, it is not a waste of time for one guy to develop/mod new firmware for the B&G displays, it actually makes a lot of sense. Let B&G maintain the manufacturing, distribution and warrantee, yes warrantee* infrastructure, and keep your customers happy with software that actually works.

 

Developing, maintaining and improving GOOD software is cheap while making a living. Just one example comes to mind, Expedition. Words like GOOD, RELIABLE, AMAZING SUPPORT and TRANPARENT, FLEXIBLE, FRINDLY and LEADING EDGE are word that come to mind when I think of Nick's one man show, none of them come to mind when I think of B&G.

 

I am done getting back to you it is not fun when it is so easy. :)

 

* process for replacing B&G malfunctioning hardware:

If a display has a minor hardware issue flush back the B&G shitty firmware and send it back for replacement, and if it is a major hardware malfunction send it back anyways, chances are Miles' buddies will not be able to power it on until it is fixed anyways and if all that fails then I know it is better to eat $ and buy an new one, than having to endure B&G's off the shelf software, arrogance and lack of support.



#22 Miles

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:10 PM

The answer is all around you Miles. And NO, it is not a waste of time for one guy to develop/mod new firmware for the B&G displays, it actually makes a lot of sense. Let B&G maintain the manufacturing, distribution and warrantee, yes warrantee* infrastructure, and keep your customers happy with software that actually works.

 

Developing, maintaining and improving GOOD software is cheap while making a living. Just one example comes to mind, Expedition. Words like GOOD, RELIABLE, AMAZING SUPPORT and TRANPARENT, FLEXIBLE, FRINDLY and LEADING EDGE are word that come to mind when I think of Nick's one man show, none of them come to mind when I think of B&G.

 

I am done getting back to you it is not fun when it is so easy. :)

 

* process for replacing B&G malfunctioning hardware:

If a display has a minor hardware issue flush back the B&G shitty firmware and send it back for replacement, and if it is a major hardware malfunction send it back anyways, chances are Miles' buddies will not be able to power it on until it is fixed anyways and if all that fails then I know it is better to eat $ and buy an new one, than having to endure B&G's off the shelf software, arrogance and lack of support.

Maybe I should try some of the stuff you are smoking.  You clearly know so much about the marine electronics industry, maybe you should build a processor and some displays and an autopilot, sounds like it would be a winner.

 

In the meantime I'll just keep correcting some of your made up tales on these forums.



#23 carcrash

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:03 AM

Um.

"Serial" means a serial stream of bits. 360-bits, 180-bits, 64-bits. 32-bits, 16-bits, 8-bits, even 4-bits (I have programmed all of these) are 100% irrelevant when talking about "serial" protocols. Every processor must convert to and from serial bit stream into the parallel words of the processor.

A 4-bit machine needs to convert a series of 4-bit values into a stream of bits. So does a 360-bit, 64-bit, or 32-bit machine.

It makes absolutely no difference. Every single computer manufactured in the last 50 years, if not over all time, can and does handle serial I/O.

#24 gqchicago

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 11:51 PM

If your instruments are freezing, it is likely caused by using a standard "cheap" USB-Serial converter.   Try one from Sealevel systems.  I spent months troubleshooting this same issue on someone's boat, finally switched out the USB-serial dongle from a standard Belkin to a much more expensive Sealevel, and all of our issues immediately went away.   Apparently the stuff the sell in computer stores isn't of the same grade as marine ones that provide continuous data flows from the instruments (or NMEA bus) to the PC.   This is one of those "ask me how I know lessons"... as an IT guy I was in disbelief until I tried it and it solved all of our problems.



#25 NewLeaf

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 01:44 AM

What if I have nothing connected to the instruments and they still freeze? or if following B&G's development tradition and still run a windows XP machine with a serial port and still freeze?

 

I do agree that getting a good serial-usb converter is critical but saying that this will fix the freezing in a B&G H3000 system then our experience with this instruments is a bit different and would be interested in knowing what versions are you running in your CPU, displays and pilot if you have one, number of displays, number of h-links.

 

I would pay $5000.00 to anyone that can keep my instruments from freezing, freezing when displaying more than 1-3 external channels and updating tags, make the pilot tack, and steer under anything over 15knots and a little bit of seas at 52TWA or grater.

I never in my life wanted to be so wrong and be able to say it, if proven so. Life would be so much nicer.



#26 us7070

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:53 PM

New Leaf - I know you've posted the details before.., but remind me...

 

does your system only freeze when displaying external channels, and only if you are sending the tags?



#27 NewLeaf

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:03 PM

Here you have a few test results when I was testing the different configurations. I have about 30 more tests, that include alternating GFDs and GPDs in the same bus, isolating GFDs and GPDs in their own bus, different refresh settings, etc. etc.

 

The current electrical configuration is as follows

 

The B&G instruments, the serial to wireless Moxa NportW2004, Shipmodul NMEA switch, GPS and chart plotter are powered from a Newmar   12-12-12I DC-DC Isolated Converter and their dedicated 80 AmpH LiPo.

 

The computer, house lights are in their own 80AmpH LiPo. no physical wires between the computer and the instruments

 

The Ram has its own 100AmpH Lipo running our it own  Newmar   12-12-12I DC-DC Isolated Converter.

 

The starter battery is an Duracell

 

Very simple, clean electrical grid and with a minimum risk of ground loops. All the connections in the instruments side are done using 3M UR2 Scotchlok Connectors, then encased in an epoxy dip.

Attached Files



#28 Expedition

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:46 PM

Hello,

 

Yes, it seems you can crash a system with GFDs in it by sending tags. A couple of points:

 

  • I think it only happens if there is a GFD in the system.
  • Apparently the issue is alleviated by sending less than one every 3s
  • As a solution, Exp has the ability for the user to set a custom name for each external channel. This only gets sent at start-up or if the channel selection changes, so should also solve the issue.

Nick



#29 NewLeaf

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:23 PM

thanks Nick, but I tried that and it definitely is better than sending tags.

 

However what I did not put in the "report" is that as the number of GFDs and GPDs increases the system crashes/freezes at shorter intervals. I bet that there is some relationship to this.

 

My best availability is achieved by isolating the GPDs in one Hlink bus and the GFDs on the other. Once you get all the GFDs frozen, then GPDs start to freeze one by one randomly until all of them freeze; but at least you get a longer to reset/reboot the system.

 

To me what it is interesting is that everything freezes, including the serial and NMEA.

 

What I have not tried is to have just the CPU running without any displays, but then again do not think it is possible without damaging the h-link bus driver.

 

have you played with the h5k?

 

BTW happy birthday






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