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DIY fairing a j24


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#1 aksnys

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:42 PM

I am thinking I will attempt to fair my J24 this winter (keel, rudder, etc.).  I have been looking around and came across the website computerkeel.com.  I am curious to know if anyone has any experiance, or success, with the templates from this site?  My boat has been professionally measured, so I know what needs to be done.  I just need templates.  Are there any other companies thet sell templates for a J24? Also, I think I will just purchase the rudder template first to give it a try.  Has anyone faired a J24, or something similar like a j22, by themselves?  Does anyone have any resources about fairing a J24 that I would find useful? Thanks.



#2 Gouvernail

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:27 PM

A customer of mine bought a set of aluminum templates from a company in. Minnesota who advertised on the J-24 magazine and claimed to make computer cut templates.
They were not fair and at 25% on station four they were three millimeters too thin. ( too bad I was wowed by the nifty aluminum things with labels saying the templates could only be used on Doug's boat and never even sighted the edges )
I built a keel using those pieces of trash and my friends spend Bondo time at the North Americans so they could pass measuring ,


They came home furious with me.

I carefully redid the keel

They went to another regatta and failed again

I measured the unfair garbage and realized we had been screwed by the incompetent bullshitters in Minnesota

I made my own templates and have since created many more templates and used those templates to create world champions, Olympic champions, na champions, Midwinter Champions
I guess I can credit whoever made that shit from Minnesota with showing me what shit people will sell as wonderful and leading me to a situation where I was forced to make my own

Making my own was soooooo easy and I am still using the same set about 28 years later
.
I did it with 1/8 inch by four inch aluminum stock, a metal ruler, a jigsaw and a file .

And I designed a leading edge using high school math ( went to Half Price Books, bought solid geometry high school book, spent an hour refreshing my knowledge, drew some shapes on an x y plane and chose the right one)
Make your own templates. If you find that hard to do I cannot imagine how you could do your keel without totally screwing up the job.

Note: my favorite customers are the ones who have done lots if their own work but have decided to use their free time sailing rather than doing a job that is not quite as nice as mine and has no warranty.

Me Happy is a do it yourself piece of perfection. The guys spent weeks and weeks drinking beer , shooting the bull, and working on their toy.
When they don't have time I get to touch it up .

It is all about how you love to spend your time

If tools and paints are not your friends pay somebody to take care of your boat

#3 BalticBandit

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:45 PM

There's a bunch of threads here aksnys on how to do this.  llook for them



#4 aksnys

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:40 PM

There's a bunch of threads here aksnys on how to do this.  llook for them

Please point them out to me, as I cannot find anything that talks about where to find forms for keel fairing.  I also can't find much that gives tips on fairing keels and rudders.



#5 Gouvernail

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:22 AM


This is going to be one of those threads where I write something intending to be very nice and helpful and I will be flamed for it

Here goes

Aksnys lacks the knowledge to comprehend his lack of knowledge.
If he persists and does work on his boat before gaining significant knowledge, he will not only spend way more time and money than he can currently imagine but the resulting product will be in a condition such that compared to before Aksnys started, it will cost more to create a templated keel after Aksnys stops


Knowing the above to be true I will add my personal and heartfelt advice to Aksnys below.


Get a set of class rules and read the keel plan charts.
Use those charts and some 1/8 inch by three inch aluminum stock to make a set of templates.

If you do not know how to read the charts go do whatever is necessary to learn how.

If, after you comprehend the charts, you dont know how to make the templates learn how and make them.


Please understand this: Building templates is MUCH easier than building a templated keel.

If you lack the skills to build a set if templates, you ABSOLUTELY lack the skills to build a templated keel.

So,as it takes a lot of time to type this heartfelt advice out on an iPhone, this is my absolute last attempt to offer advice until
You actually prove you are making use of it.

AFTER you post photos of your complete set of templates I will resume making contributions to this discussion

#6 entropy

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:39 AM

I think Gouv would probably agree that our very favorite fairing customers are the guys who already "faired" their own boats.  They never bitch about the price and they really appreciate the finished product.  So, have at it!



#7 Gouvernail

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 04:33 AM

That is sooooo true. In fact they are the ones who ask, " Are you sure that is enough money "

But

Aksnys really worries me. His posts indicate he really has non idea what he is trying to accomplish much less have a plan to get done.

#8 BalticBandit

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 08:02 AM

Well Aksnys may well be like me, or Bill Buchan, who has the mindset to do it themselves and then be able to tweak the shape to adjust for their sailing style.  But then again his question about computerkeels.com suggests not.

 

Aksnys - I and others have written a lot on how to do this, and please excuse our weariness at having to do this again.  Google is your friend https://www.google.com/search?q=fair+j-24+keel+sailing+anarchy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&ei=zyNqUpqdKYKc0wXuvYDgAw  turns up 4 threads in SA just to start.

 

Now I got into fixing my keel because the North Ams were coming up in spring in Seattle, and I was in the middle of a divorce and could not afford the services of someone like Gouv.  I had had the keel originally done professionally but the person was "aggressive" in keel positioning and thus my keel was 1/2" too far forward.  That meant I had to not only add 1/2" of material to the back of the keel, but move the shape back by 1/2" as well.  It took me the better part of 3 months of weekends and then week nights to get it done.  Partly because the weather was cold enough that getting the West System epoxy to kick took longer (ie 2 days with a tarp and heaters) And along the way I changed the shape intentionally from what it had been before.

 

Computer Keels Inc does have an ok template.  But its not the fastest.  Current thinking is to go to 'all minimums' but there still is a fair bit of sorting to do on how you shape the leading edge and straighten the keel laterally (they are all bent because they are lead and were stored on their sides after casting )



#9 Rushman

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 09:05 AM

I have seen this done by a professional, took about 8 days to complete, hours of planing, lots of bog, more planing, more bog...

The finished product was fantastic and worth the money according to the owner.

The silver trophies at the end of the next series were proof that the job was done right.

Sidenote... We managed to win the rum race the day the boat was splashed, we were very careful not to spill a drop as that bottle of rum had cost the owner about $5000 he claimed. The boat was also antifouled so cost of the fairing was ???

#10 Dogfish4255

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:30 AM

Most of the discussions you're going to find on keel fairings are along the lines of "lift a shape from a fast boat, grind down to lead, transfer shape, add filler, sand-ink-sand-check-ink-sand-check . . . .

 

And then it says "if you value the quality of the results OR the value of your limited time OR recognize the limits to your own skill OR recognize the impact to the future ability to sell your boat"

 

Restrict your DIY projects to non-critical filling/fairing of the hull if you want to help, OR above the sheer line work.  But honestly.  Pay a professional to build a keel and/or rudder.  There is no part of your boat that you want to spend that amount of time on to mess up.

 

Owner

Driver

DIY nut

Measurer



#11 BalticBandit

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:13 PM

I have seen this done by a professional, took about 8 days to complete, hours of planing, lots of bog, more planing, more bog...

The finished product was fantastic and worth the money according to the owner.

The silver trophies at the end of the next series were proof that the job was done right.

Sidenote... We managed to win the rum race the day the boat was splashed, we were very careful not to spill a drop as that bottle of rum had cost the owner about $5000 he claimed. The boat was also antifouled so cost of the fairing was ???

Yeah my final fairing took probably 20 hours starting at 240 grid and ending up at 1600 on a hard white epoxy. And that's just the final fairing.    I easily had 40 hours in it before that of direct work.



#12 USA4182

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:09 PM

For one its not easy and having done several I understand why pros charge what they do.

The physical labor is only one part of the equation, and knowing how to fair, and not flatten is an artform and takes a bit to master.

The next issue is the knowledge and experience of working with different fillers and coatings, ie, how much hardener, working times, temps, consistency, etc.

This is always the fear, put in hours and hours of work and have it fail because you used incompatible coatings, did it on a cold humid day because that was the Saturday it "had to get done". 

I am not saying don't do it, especially if you do not have the cash for a pro job, just be careful, measure 10 times, cut once.

Take your time, do not force it, do not rush......



#13 aksnys

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 04:47 PM

This is going to be one of those threads where I write something intending to be very nice and helpful and I will be flamed for it

Here goes

Aksnys lacks the knowledge to comprehend his lack of knowledge.
If he persists and does work on his boat before gaining significant knowledge, he will not only spend way more time and money than he can currently imagine but the resulting product will be in a condition such that compared to before Aksnys started, it will cost more to create a templated keel after Aksnys stops


Knowing the above to be true I will add my personal and heartfelt advice to Aksnys below.


Get a set of class rules and read the keel plan charts.
Use those charts and some 1/8 inch by three inch aluminum stock to make a set of templates.

If you do not know how to read the charts go do whatever is necessary to learn how.

If, after you comprehend the charts, you dont know how to make the templates learn how and make them.


Please understand this: Building templates is MUCH easier than building a templated keel.

If you lack the skills to build a set if templates, you ABSOLUTELY lack the skills to build a templated keel.

So,as it takes a lot of time to type this heartfelt advice out on an iPhone, this is my absolute last attempt to offer advice until
You actually prove you are making use of it.

AFTER you post photos of your complete set of templates I will resume making contributions to this discussion

Well... the purpose of my post was to see if anyone had information that would help me learn and GAIN knowledge about fairing.  I am asking questions and would prefer helpful answers.  Not complete bullshit answers where you write things that don't offer help or don't support someone who is fairly new to the sport of sailing.

 

I am not going to have a professional do the job because:

1) I don't have the money

2) Even if I had the money, I would not spend 3-5k on a fixer upper boat that cost only 3k to begin with.

3) While I may not have the knowledge yet, I need to start somewhere... "practice makes perfect"

4) I have the full winter to work on the boat

5) Projects and tasks like this are fun to get into and fun when success is achieved.

 

Now, If anyone else has some good advise for someone who is still quite new to sailing, and boats in general, and who wants to LEARN a new skill, it would be greatly appreciated.  However, if you are a rich lazy-ass, who would rather pay thousands of dollers for a professional job while you sit at home all winter wanking it (gouvernail), your advice is not welcomed.  People like you are the ones who push others away, or persuade others from not trying, the sport of sailing.  Being welcoming and helpful can be a great asset to the growth of a sport.

 

Remenber, this is a DIY job for a beat up DIY boat.  I have little to lose, and much to gain.

 

-Cheers 



#14 Dogfish4255

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:19 PM

It's do-able, and frankly once you get into it, a lot of the basics are just messy, rather than being technically challenging.  Fundamentally, you'll need a source for a class legal shape, shop space, and an ability to hang or stand the boat up in a way that makes working on all surfaces of the keel easy.  Whether you draw the class legal minimum offsets (typically an unforgiving driving shape for most), or lift a known fast shape off a fast boat (get permission of the owner first), the concept is generally the same.

1. tear down

2. survey/locate/mark

3. add shape guides

4. fill shape

5. check shape

6. additional minor fairing

7. check shape

8. final fairing

9. surface prep/paint

10. measurement

 

http://forums.sailin...37316&p=3797073

 

This is an example.

 

http://www.sailnet.c...plate-keel.html

 

Or here, pages 9-12.

 

http://www.google.co...5,d.cGE&cad=rja



#15 Mr. Squirrel

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 12:56 AM

Wait. Let me see if I have this right. You spent $3k on a piece of shit J/24. And the first project you want to undertake is fairing the bottom. Let me see if I can be more delicate than Gouv. Ah fuck it....

Why would you only spend $3k and then decide the bottom needs fairing? I bet a POS $3k J/24 has a lot more pressing needs than a perfectly templated keel. If nothing works, a perfect bottom doesnt fucking matter!

Start with the shit you can do:
1. Fix or replace all the blocks and cleats that are old and/or dont work correctly anymore.
2. Replace all the lines that are more than 2 or 3 years old. Replace with new, technically current lines.
3. Make sure every piece of equipment on deck works properly. If it doesnt, replace that too.
4. Learn how to fix all the places where the deck is soft. DO NOT start from the top side. Fix from underneath and if you dont know how you certainly shouldnt be touching the bottom or keel.
5. Wash, clean, sand, and wax the hull. Wash the deck. Fix the non-skid if necessary.
6. Fix or replace any sheaves on the mast and boom that do not function correctly.
7. Fix anything else that needs fixing.

By now you should be well into June. Now go sailing. Fuck fairing the bottom. If it is smooth and clean it will be fast enough. Now if you still think you need to fair the boat, look at your sails. If they are more than 2 years old start saving your pennies and dont touch the bottom, the keel, or the rudder except to wash it.

Now, when you start losing races to perfectly prepared boats you can consider working on the bottom. As long as you have old sails and shitty deck hardware the bottom is the least of your problem.

See how easy that was?
MS

#16 Gouvernail

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 05:44 AM

Ok mr Aksnys you totally missed my attempt to help.
You also gave me additional information.

Now I can suggest this.

1. If you are on a limited budget DO NOT waste limited funds on a set of professionally built templates.
A. Buy some stiff thin three inch wide and four foot long material you can afford that will stand up to being held up a few hundred times next to a rough surface without changing shape.
B. cut a set of templates according to the published class keel offsets.
C. Measure the trailing edge to transom and chop off anything that you are allowed to chop off
D. Remove material from your keel until you can put each of the templates in the right place
E. Remove enough more to allow space for your chosen final coating
f. Fair the keel such that the templates fit easily in their proper place
and
the areas between the templates appear to be fair
G. Apply your chosen coating
H. Sand and polish the keel to an appropriate finish


Rig your boat

Go sailing


As I wrote before. Once you have created your set of templates, take some photos and post them here. Upon seeing your templates and quizzing you sufficiently to be able to be of more help, many of us will eagerly do so.


You responded as though you missed my offer of further help

I know you need to build some templates

You need no further help until those templates are ready for use

I DID NOT suggest you quit, go away, go wank yourself, or reply to my heartfelt offer of help with snide remarks


I wrote

Build a set of templates
So you can use the next set of advice


So once again

Go build a set of templates and get back to us all when you have taken that first step.


Notice the above advice does not include ANY unfriendly or unwelcoming statement

Build some templates do we can offer more help

Until you have but those templates there is nothing anyone can tell you that will be of more help

Than to say

Build some templates and get back to those of is who can help you


After those templates are finished


By you


Summarizing.

I think the best advice you can be given is ;
build a set of templates and then go seek additional al advice


So finally

I am suggesting you build a set of templates

Then we can give you some advice

After you have built the templates

#17 -Julian-

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:38 PM

Aksnys,

 

One of the threads linked to above was mine from the first fairing job we did a year ago.  Though I can't really comment on whether the Computer Keel Shape is a good one, I can say without a doubt that professionally made templates are quite unnecessary.

 

For a single keel fairing job, you can probably get away with hard-board or acrylic material to make the templates.  If you have access to CAD software then you can easily transfer the offsets and spline a curve around them, then plot or have them plotted in full size.  You can glue the paper pattern to the material you wish to use, then cut the shape out with a jig, and sand/file smooth.

 

If you don't have access to a CAD software, then you will want to get a decent set of drafting triangles, and loft out your curves with a pencil on paper.  A batten or similar can be bent around the offsets to produce a fair curve.

 

Step 1:

Draw/Plot/Loft a shape similar to this:

keel section I min.jpg

 

Step 2:

Glue this onto your template material

 

Step 3:

Cut it out

 

Step 4:

Repeat for the rest of the keel sections.

 

Also for what it's worth, you mentioned fairing your rudder, I would put it to you that on a (Old?) $3k boat, your rudder is likely the old style that did not lend itself well to fairing.  Be cautious when fairing an old rudder, they are prone to breaking after being faired to minimum.

 

Cheers,

Julain



#18 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:58 PM

Is your mast minimum?

Is your headstay maximum?

Is the Vermiculite out?

Have you weighed the boat?

How many Tacks/Gibes have you completed in practice?

Have you shown us any pictures of your wife/girlfriend/sisters' tits?

 

Unless the fairing is falling off the keel put it way down on your priority list.



#19 Gouvernail

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:55 PM

In Asknys defense. He has all winter to do this and that suggests he cAnt go practice until may.

Once he has built a set if templates I look foreword to being more helpful so he can play with all of us next year

#20 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 04:10 PM

He could still show us pictures

 

In Asknys defense. He has all winter to do this and that suggests he cAnt go practice until may.

Once he has built a set if templates I look foreword to being more helpful so he can play with all of us next year



#21 Knowitall

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:05 PM

Tools you are going to need:

 

1. 7 or 9 inch angle grinder to rough grind the old fairing compound

 

2. 12' dry wall knife and fairing compound. Be sure to get the stuff thats easy to grind.

 

3. Body work flat plane tool. These are air operated so be sure to use a big enough air compressor. I rented one with a 5 HP gas motor, the ones that you plug into a 120 outlet aren't big enough



#22 BalticBandit

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:16 AM

I found a Belt Sander worked better.

 

And Surform planes for the finer grain shaping

 

ignore the "easy to grind" fairing compound suggestion.  build your templates and then wait for Gouv to get back to you.  Easy to fair is also "easy to damage"



#23 USA4182

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:22 PM

Surform planes will cut lead, and quite well until they dull, if you need to remove lots of lead a power planer works.

 

Some easy to fair compounds are 3m vinylester filler, Epoxy with Micro Balloons.  Some others do not fair worth a darn.  Both of those fairing compounds are plenty hard and strong for many years.

 

P



#24 some dude

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:05 AM

Wait. Let me see if I have this right. You spent $3k on a piece of shit J/24. And the first project you want to undertake is fairing the bottom. Let me see if I can be more delicate than Gouv. Ah fuck it....

Why would you only spend $3k and then decide the bottom needs fairing? I bet a POS $3k J/24 has a lot more pressing needs than a perfectly templated keel. If nothing works, a perfect bottom doesnt fucking matter!

Start with the shit you can do:
1. Fix or replace all the blocks and cleats that are old and/or dont work correctly anymore.
2. Replace all the lines that are more than 2 or 3 years old. Replace with new, technically current lines.
3. Make sure every piece of equipment on deck works properly. If it doesnt, replace that too.
4. Learn how to fix all the places where the deck is soft. DO NOT start from the top side. Fix from underneath and if you dont know how you certainly shouldnt be touching the bottom or keel.
5. Wash, clean, sand, and wax the hull. Wash the deck. Fix the non-skid if necessary.
6. Fix or replace any sheaves on the mast and boom that do not function correctly.
7. Fix anything else that needs fixing.

By now you should be well into June. Now go sailing. Fuck fairing the bottom. If it is smooth and clean it will be fast enough. Now if you still think you need to fair the boat, look at your sails. If they are more than 2 years old start saving your pennies and dont touch the bottom, the keel, or the rudder except to wash it.

Now, when you start losing races to perfectly prepared boats you can consider working on the bottom. As long as you have old sails and shitty deck hardware the bottom is the least of your problem.

See how easy that was?
MS


This. For your first winter with a $3K boat spend it on the deck and make friends with your sailmaker and/or local OD guys who have slightly used sails for sale

#25 Debos

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:22 PM

I'm sure that if the OP can't figure out how to build the templates (2 dimensional), he is going to have a tough time figuring out how to get the keel in the right place, right shape etc. A curved,  3 dimensional, object that has to line up with other curved, objects, with indeterminate reference points etc.

 

If he can figure out the template, he has a shot at getting the keel straight, and legal. (and hopefully faster)

 

I'm also sure that if the keel has not been worked on yet, there will be a signficant difference.  If it has been worked on, and is in the right location, the added value of a keel job is pretty small, compared to many other easier tasks - sails, deck layout, practice etc.

 

But I can't say that the week I spent under my 24 back in the day was the worst time I've ever had. 

 

That would have to be the prison stretch.






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