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New ISAF proposals.

Not good imo

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#1 stinger

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:42 PM

Everyone should take a look at the new ISAF World Championship proposals. Not good for the future of sailing.  It will segregate the top level players from the up and comers and the long time weekend warriors that are good enough to beat national sailing team members but don't want to run an olympic campaign.  Not good imo.

 

http://www.sail-worl...568&NLID=463359

 

http://www.sailing.o...ion-[15701].pdf



#2 Gouvernail

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:04 PM

As I see this the problem is clearly described in the "mission" statement.
If that which is described is the mission, then something like the proposal probably makes some sense.

If I were to write it, the mission statement would go seething like this;

Work to make sailing into a participation sport available to as many people as possible all over the world so there can eventually be real world championships in well attended sailing games recognized by people all over the world.

The ultimate goal is to have qualifiers from 200 to 300 boat local regattas meeting at 200 boat national regattas to determine which top three from each country on the planet meet in the annual world championships

Olympics: as the Olympics have never brought any benefit what so ever to the sport of sailing the relationship with the intense commercialism of the International Olympic Committee must be thoroughly re-evaluated and rebuilt such that the sailing game and its players receive benefit. after careful consideration of this problem and development of possible solutions the following describes a general acceptable relationship.
Every four years, providing the financial and social contribution to the sport of sailing from the Olympic participation was deemed sufficiently superlative to continue a relationship, the various "Olympic" classes would allow their world championships to be called "Olympic."
In some years the Olympic sailing events might also be scheduled during the summer or winter Olympic Games and sometimes at a venue near those Olympic games.

Each class would be expected to regularly evaluate its relationship with the Olympics and to terminate that relationship if participation at local sailing events could be harmed by the relationship with the for profit business conducted by the International Olympic Committee

#3 SimonN

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:53 PM

This is not as bad as you think. They are talking about having 4 events plus a "finals" for the top sailors (limited entry). There will still be multi class regattas which anybody can enter, plus the major class championships. So long as therte are enough of those regattas, there is non problem.

 

However, this fails to address the real problems, which are that nobody really cares about the issue they are trying to address, namely having a more clearly defined "champion" and championship. More importantly, these events will never gain the position that ISAF wants when the strongest teams, such as GBR and AUS, don't see them as being important in terms of Olympic selection. The success of GBR has been due to their ability to select the right people at the right time (to an extent the same ids true of AUS). World ranking and a world tour plays zero part in how GBR selects, which they do based on well proven and researched factor going back over the data of past Olympics.



#4 Gouvernail

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:26 AM

My mistake was to write at length

Sorry

The problem

ISAF officers believe money, exposure, and world championships are sailing's most important things .

Sailing is a participation driven social sporting game and the most important part of that game is its local weekly activities.

99.9% of the sailing community does not Care if sailing is on TV and wouldn't stay home to watch even if it were.

We have another example of old people who no longer participate in sailboat racing coming up with new ways to cling to control of a game they have no interest in playing.

We don't sail so ISAF executives and those who lobby them can run some media business

We just want to play with our friends.

One huge difference between sailing and most other sports is sailors who took it up last week often get to share courses with world champions.

The people at ISAF either do not understand that is important or are too selfish to care.

Either way, the fix is simple.


Nurturing sailing fleets is a lot like growing wildflowers.
You cannot let anyone pick the pretty flowers because those flowers contain the seeds for next year.

And every year you always must invest in and nurture seeds to replace those lost since last season.


We must chase off those who do nothing but show up and pick our pretty flowers

#5 bruno

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:09 AM

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=151917

#6 torrid

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:00 AM

I think this has little effect on me as a (less than) mediocre sailor racing in local regattas.  However, I think it has big implications about the future of the sport.

 

ISAF seems to think that sponsorships and media attention from a few big events will draw more people into the sport.  Conversely, I think creating such a large line of division between the sailing elite and everyone else will only hurt participation.  Sailing will never be a spectator sport.



#7 SimonN

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 04:43 AM

I think this has little effect on me as a (less than) mediocre sailor racing in local regattas.  However, I think it has big implications about the future of the sport.

 

ISAF seems to think that sponsorships and media attention from a few big events will draw more people into the sport.  Conversely, I think creating such a large line of division between the sailing elite and everyone else will only hurt participation.  Sailing will never be a spectator sport.

I think you are reading things into this that aren't there. There have always been Olympic classes regattas that have limited entry. In that respect, this isn't something new. There are more than enough other regattas to go around and I am sure they will remain high calibre. For instance, I cannot imagine that Hyere will want to lose 2/3rds of their entries, so I would expect that regatta to remain, plus a load more. Plus there are the European and World titles for each class.

 

Then there is the question of why shouldn't the best of the best have some regattas just for them, with limited numbers just like the Olympics? For the more cash strapped top teams, or those with travel challenges because of distance (AUS), it helps the very top guys focus on what they need to.

 

I see no problem with the basic idea, and when I was sailing Olympic classes I would have been one of those who wasn't good enough to go to the limited entry regattas. The problem is that it will not achieve what they want and until they really get to grips with the basics of understanding the dynamics involved, we will continue to see the formats fiddled with and it having no effect. I was at the ISAF conference when they discussed and voted in the current system and was pretty vocal in saying that what they proposed then wouldn't have the desired effect. Those with the same views as me were simply ignored, by a group of older sailors who really do see to be, at times, out of touch with the realities of our sport. The only possible justification for having the aims that they do in terms of promotion of the sport is to impress the IOC and show that sailing is doing all it can to increase audience. Maybe I don't give ISAF enough credit and that they have no option but to pursue a hopeless course, because we have seen what happens to sports that don't pay attention to what the IOC wants (wrestling for instance) and despite what some might think, to lose the revenue from the Olympics would be a major disaster for our sport.



#8 Phil S

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:06 AM

I have not bothered to read the details but it looks a lot like business as usual, where the majority of the sport's administrators are making big decisions about the minority of its sailing members and the majority of the people taking the money from the sport (and who make a living from the sport as coaches etc.), while making no decsions, contributing little money and no effort about the sport for the remainder of their members.

 

If its all about defending the sport's olympic status I am not sure its all worth it.



#9 Iron_Buddha

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:19 AM

This is not as bad as you think. They are talking about having 4 events plus a "finals" for the top sailors (limited entry). There will still be multi class regattas which anybody can enter, plus the major class championships. So long as therte are enough of those regattas, there is non problem.

 

However, this fails to address the real problems, which are that nobody really cares about the issue they are trying to address, namely having a more clearly defined "champion" and championship. More importantly, these events will never gain the position that ISAF wants when the strongest teams, such as GBR and AUS, don't see them as being important in terms of Olympic selection. The success of GBR has been due to their ability to select the right people at the right time (to an extent the same ids true of AUS). World ranking and a world tour plays zero part in how GBR selects, which they do based on well proven and researched factor going back over the data of past Olympics.

 

Simon - Like you I don't think this will be that bad, and will even go as far as seeing the positives in between some rather obvious negatives.  But I don't get some of your points.  Who cares how team GBR pick their olympic reps?  They will still take this format seriously - funding is tied to likeliness of medeling which is indicated by previous olmpics, but also current performance at the elite world stage.  What better way to prove your medal potential then to compete exclusively with the world top 25?  And I think that the media will care about a clearly defined "champion" even if nobody else does.



#10 dogwatch

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:30 AM

Simon - Like you I don't think this will be that bad, and will even go as far as seeing the positives in between some rather obvious negatives.  But I don't get some of your points.  Who cares how team GBR pick their olympic reps?  They will still take this format seriously - funding is tied to likeliness of medeling which is indicated by previous olmpics, but also current performance at the elite world stage. 

 

I don't think that's actually correct. Allocation of funds to sports for the Rio cycle was announced not that long after the London games.



#11 Iron_Buddha

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:41 AM

Simon - Like you I don't think this will be that bad, and will even go as far as seeing the positives in between some rather obvious negatives.  But I don't get some of your points.  Who cares how team GBR pick their olympic reps?  They will still take this format seriously - funding is tied to likeliness of medeling which is indicated by previous olmpics, but also current performance at the elite world stage. 

 

I don't think that's actually correct. Allocation of funds to sports for the Rio cycle was announced not that long after the London games.

Then I'll quite happily stand corrected as I don't know for sure.  I was always led to believe that funding for both AUS and GBR sailors was tiered and only those who could demonstrate potential for medaling were allocated top tier funding.  I heard that the AUS sailing was to be given a larger share of overall govement funding across olympic sports for the next cycle, but suspect that invidual results determine allocation of that money across sailors.



#12 dogwatch

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:53 AM

^

 

Ah, two different things. As far as GBR goes, allocation of funds to sports is a done deal for the Rio cycle. How and when funding within that is allocated to sailors, I'm not certain. I don't think there's fixed pay-for-performance as far as specific regattas go because, as SimonN indicates, team selection is based on selectors' decisions, not deterministically through selection regattas.



#13 Gouvernail

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:14 AM

I absolutely certain there are people who would love to make a living racing Olympic sailboats.

This sort of system may help those few attain their goal.

On the other hand, there are hundreds if not thousands of us who love to take an occasional year off from our real lives, practice like hell, and go play in a couple world championship regattas before going back to real life.

As many of is who do that sort of thing are the stalwarts of the sport who work to keep our local fleets vibrant, host regattas, show up lots of other weekends, take kids to regattas, do RC, serve on committees, run YC Boards, build docks, and generally keep the sport alive, ----

It pisses me off when a bunch of people assume it is perfectly alright to mess up our game so a very limited few can make money

If ISAF and the Olympic. Committee want to hold special events for their own commercial interests, they can design some boats, build their own fleets, and host their own games.

ISAF!! Leave your goddamn greedy commercial mitts off my fleet!!!!

#14 dogwatch

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:22 AM

If ISAF and the Olympic. Committee want to hold special events for their own commercial interests, they can design some boats, build their own fleets, and host their own games.

 

 

They pretty much have. Apart from the Finn, Laser and Radial, the Olympic classes are pretty much of interest only to Olympic sailors and wannabes. That's the situation in GBR anyway.



#15 Gouvernail

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 02:23 PM

Precisely. The use in the Olympics has killed off the local fleet in virtually every fleet it has ever attacked.
Popularity comes from affordability and solid local programs where everyone is invited to play and the very best sailors nurture beginners.
Olympic sailors have no choice but to focus on themselves, their program, their fundraising , their coaches, their equipment, and time spent building the sport merely serves to dilute their own effort toward their own goals.
The Olympics and the new ISAF plan is all aboit exclusion of most sailors and making money for organizers .
The proposal proves beyond any doubt it is time for all sailors but those who are chasing Olpic dreams to quit any affiliation with the ISAF. We need to form a worldwide organization whose job is to serve the game of sailing.

#16 FishAintBiting

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:35 PM

... We need to form a worldwide organization whose job is to serve the game of sailing.

 

Well said good Sir.  



#17 Gouvernail

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 04:58 PM

Please understand:
I sm aware there are a lot of hardworking good people who are doing their very best to use the tool called ISAF to raise the top level of sailing to something similar to car racing, or soccer.
But

Their goals, in my view, have almost nothing to do with the goals of the international sailing organization whose mission would be to build and manage the sport of sailing as a weekend recreational activity for the hobbyist.

In many cases the goals if the two organizations would be very different and each organization would wish to take the sport in a different direction.

That is not a bad thing. It is a real thing we need to recognize and build upon.

I am certain the two organizations would mostly help the game if sailing from their own angle

But

I believe it is beyond reason to ask ISAF to properly and enthusiastically serve the local sailing game while properly and enthusiastically serving the commercial interests of the Olympics, advertisers, media, and the sailors who wish to pursue careers as professional sailors.

The success of most large sailing classes is a homespun family friendly social group whose primary reason for getting together is to play with one another. The sailors build and maintain the game so they can play

The primary goal Olympians and professionals and even many ISAF executives is to make a living off the game.
It is not a bad thing to make a living off the game. It is simply a very different thing causing very different assignment of priorities.

We need to split up our navy and attack the problems from appropriately opposing flanks.

#18 Warwick C

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:27 PM

Rob Lowndes is a champion of the Laser class, both on and off the water, in Australia.

 

I strongly recommend reading his thoughts on the ISAF proposal which were published on Sail World recently.

 

http://www.sail-worl...classes?/116093



#19 bruno

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:33 PM

Warwick c, agree, sorry to requote meself but...

Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:54 PM
When I went to catch up on latest Gladwell successful effort to cheapen his brand I happened upon the IYRU doing the same. Apparently, the competition committee got such a woodrow over the AC on tV that they have decided to turn Olympic dinghy sailing into surfing, nice.

To wit, an international circuit of the top 25 sailors/teams in each class culminating in an annual World Cup. A couple of points:
- surfing sells tshirts, shorts, hats, rashguards, and shoes well, the big surfwear companies have done a great job of branding and establishing their brands in the global consciousness/marketplace over the past 30 years. Is sailing really going to approach that at all, even if they had skate and snowboarding to extend their brands (blowkarting Azerbaijan!).
- even with all the thrills and spills of tv coverage, surfing is semi boring to watch for non-participants, o, look another barrel o look another off the lip, over and over for days. And the announcers keep trying to explain a simple rule like priority. somehow I cannot see sailing transcending this, instead it will be a highlight reel, not golf. And if it is light air, watch out!
I have been watching the Moths worlds and these are the hottest fastest dinghy class currently. And it requires a pretty sophisticated viewer to understand what is going on and what matters. What's next, constant head to head competition so the viewer can see where the gaps are and then call the race as soon as the gaps get too big?
- the sailing base is participants not viewers, and we are, imho, more involved in Classes we have participated in and know competitors in. Its called relatability, we can relate to thrills and spills because fear and adrenalin are universal. Pinching off the next guy in a tight start, gybing inside of them, working down and away, setting up just a bit better to burn them straightlining, simultaneous tacking to prevent a gain, all these and more that separate the champions from the rest of us are never going to be as telegenic for nonsailors as hitting into the rough. "Boy I can relate to that" not gonna happen.

So as we all know the front page is doing their best to render themselves irrelevant but the sailing world seems to actually read the forums, go figga, if you agree with me then let them know. Because making the sport more professional, more elitist, shrinking the base further, and increasing the costs of obtaining a world ranking thereby further marginalizing the 5 ring classes, these are Stupid Fucking Ideas.

#20 fastyacht

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:12 PM

Here here.

 

To Gouv's point, until the recent reinvention of olympic sailing, in the US, the only olympic class that had a life outside the Olympics was the Star.  There may be reasons for that. But the FD, 470, Soling, yingling, finn--no life. Even the 49er is pretty unsuccessful outside the olympics and the Laser was so established when if finally be came a class, that it remained active.

 

I think this problem has to do with more than the fact that the 470 "goes soft."  I think there is a problem of Olympic goals mucking up the works.

 

Somewhat similar in some ways but not in others, are the USYRU "championships" such as the Mallory cup etc which practically nobody gives a damn about and which are completely disconnected from sailboat racing more generally. People get it into their heads, "I love the 505, and I'm going to do my best and maybe someday I'll win the worlds."  Does the Mallory cup matter? No. Do the Olympics?  Maybe--if you have the right weight for the 470 or the FD back in the day. Other than that, the 505 is so good their isn't much incentive to jump and thank god it ain't an olympic class! I say that, because to me, the FD was terribly damaged by Olympic status.

 

Look at the E22 versus the Soling. E22 (like the 505) was a "loser" in the selection process, but the winner for class participation.  Who cares about the Olympics?  Very few--even of great sailors, apparently.



#21 teknologika

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:58 PM

Personally I get the feeling that with the whole "tour card" and no discards this is trying to force the top guys to focus exclusively on the Olympic classes. This sort of rule would effectively block Olympic sailors from competing in the Americas cup in the non-Olympic period.

I think that ISAF is sensing that with a well attended AC world series with foiling cats leading to the next AC with the "best sailors and the fastest boats" and a great, watchable TV package. The Olympics, (the ISAF controlled show) is no longer the pinnacle of sailing anymore.

This smells of a reaction to that to me.

#22 RobG

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:15 AM

I think this should be taken in context. ISAF's constitution lists 9 aims, presumably listed in order of impoartance. Number 2 is:

promote the sport of sailing in all its branches regardless of race, religion, gender or

political affiliation;

This thread is about the Future vision for the ISAF Sailing World Cup. The Sailing World Cup (SWC) is intended to be the primary selection pathway to Olymic sailing events, therefore it is clear that the SWC must focus on Olympic classes. I don't really see how other classes fit into the SWC at all, other than feeder classes for Olympic classes (29er -> 49er).
 
I also don't see that ISAF are saying their focus is entirely and solely on the SWC and Olympics, only that better promotion of the SWC and Olympics will lead to greater opportunities for sailors, particularly elite sailors, to make money from the sport. I don't think anyone should begrudge them that.
 
The AC is a completely different event that can easily be leveaged by ISAF by highlighting how many of the sailors have progressed through the SWC/Olympic pathway. This is a commercial payback to guys who have spent thousands of hours and tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on getting where they are. Good luck to them for finally getting some monetary reward.
 
ISAF can also benefit by comoditising the type of coverate that made the AC so sucessful. Applying that type of coverage to any event will make it interesting, commercial opportunities will follow.
 
I say good on ISAF for trying to do some to improve their lot, which will improve the lot of sailing in general. Whether it's the right something or not only history will judge.
 
I can say that since winning 3 Olympic gold medals at the last games, and the execllent coverage of the Womens' match racing, our club has had a huge surge in interest in sailing. That can only reflect favourably on ISAF.


#23 Gouvernail

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:37 AM

We neither share the same goals for our sport nor agree on whether ISAF should focus on the Olympics

#24 couchsurfer

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:47 PM

firstly,,I hope ISAF is giving some credit to Bethwaite inc.,for directly borrowing the format from the 49er series designed to be exactly this.Unfortunately that series didn't get traction--methinks there was difficulty to use the sponsor funds to both pay pretty much ALL costs of all teams as well as provide a deep enough prize-pool to fill some prima-donna pockets,,not to mention the promotion people and event organizers  :mellow:

 

......I'm of a mixed mind on all this,,,as once being on the (VERY)fringe of the ranks of high-rank sailors--I'm happy for them that they won't have to contend with some of the sailors that 'all-welcome' events can attract.., there was a time when I could do a re-start,,then pass ~120 boats by the finish at a NA midwinters,,only to have a complete idiot hook my mainsheet on the next start-then start shouting about -his- rights <_<  

 

...methinks the separation is good the other way...for the same reasons that Gouv and all resent the circuit,,,the separation will allow classes to re-settle to the masses ,,perhaps not having to cater so much to the bleeding edge,,,it would be great to see a class like laser get back to a proletarian approach--big camp-outs,,parties,.a few less coachboats,,and yes fun/serious racing on the water ...it's amazing what -taking sailboat racing seriously-  can do to dampen the spirit ............,anything that can separate some of the 'don't you know who I am' sailors from the fleet is a good thing for the sport.......... <_<

 

...hopefully the series will be funded by 'new' sponsorship money,,so that the other events that isaf funds don't get less funding dollar$... ..........oh wait a minute!!......isaf doesn't really do -anything- for the everyday sailor anyways,,,,I'm TOTALLY in favor of isolating that bunch!! :)



#25 dogwatch

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:08 PM

We need to form a worldwide organization whose job is to serve the game of sailing.

I spent a number of years in another game with multiple feuding governing bodies. It wasn't good for the game or the competitors. Multiple rules. Multiple registration fees. Another worldwide organisation for sailing? No thanks.

#26 Boundary Rider

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:03 PM

Everyone should take a look at the new ISAF World Championship proposals. Not good for the future of sailing.  It will segregate the top level players from the up and comers and the long time weekend warriors that are good enough to beat national sailing team members but don't want to run an olympic campaign.  Not good imo.

 

http://www.sail-worl...568&NLID=463359

 

http://www.sailing.o...ion-[15701].pdf

 

Totally agree.

 

In our part of the world we are seeing a proliferation of state based youth squads. In principle I don't have a problem with so called high performance squads, except that these youth sailors are now being encouraged to move clubs so they can all sail together. Local clubs are suffering badly from falling participation, and a lot of really good club sailors (who can still beat most of these youth sailors anyway) are becoming very disillusioned. It's happening in at least three classes that I'm aware of and local clubs and associations are getting screwed.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that our sport is built from the grass roots up,

 

Fracturing the participation base and segmenting so called "elite" groups can only end badly for the sport of sailing. Whether it's at an ISAF level, a National level or a regional level, that is probably not the outcome sailing administrators are expecting.



#27 Phil S

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:30 PM

Sailing is just like any other sport. The administrators and the sporting elete make their livelihood from advertising, sponsors and media coverage. The Olympics is the biggest source, and the TV rights pay for most of our sport at ISAF and National level.

Like all other sports the rest of the game is run by amateurs and volunteers with little support from above. The recent proposals simply extend the divide.

 

From my class point of view, it may mean we do not get as many of these elete sailors coming to a moth WC to sail for the FUN of it. Their ISAF schedules may be too full.



#28 SimonN

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:29 PM

There seems to be a bit of a misconception. Just because ISAF puts out an announcement of the changes to their Olympic circuit doesn't mean that the Olympics is all that the focus on. If any of you had been to ISAF annual and half year meetings, you would know that the Olympics is but a small part of what is going on. There might seem to be a little bit more focus on it at times, not least because it brings in over 50% of ISAF's revenues, but it is not out of proportion to the attention given to other areas of the sport. And if that is all you think ISAF does, maybe you should actually take a proper look at ISAF. I think many of you would be really surprised at the extent of their activities and the positive impact ISAF has on the sport at large. Sure they screw up occasionally, because they are an International sporting body with all sorts of internal politics due to the needs and ambitions of all the different countries that make up its constituents, but that is no different from any other sport.



#29 SimonN

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:32 PM

From my class point of view, it may mean we do not get as many of these elete sailors coming to a moth WC to sail for the FUN of it. Their ISAF schedules may be too full.

Strange, because I saw it exactly the other way around. Somebody like Nathan Outteridge would be able to target the best regattas and I doubt would do any more regattas than they do now. In fact, it might mean that he could do less regattas because the quality had gone up and the smaller fleets would be more like Olympic conditions. I saw this as meaning that he could have more time for Moth sailing!



#30 Gouvernail

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:54 PM

Couch surfer 's comments about hacks in the way is well taken. That truly sucks.

My solution is to get do many sailors interested in playing at the big events we can restrict those events and still have full fixed fleets.

I ( and couch surfer who is only slightly younger) should be a fellow who barely qualifies for the big events and then only if I have been sailing regularly.

My contribution to the best sailors in the fleet has always been as, " it is an embarrassment to screw up enough to be forced to pass that guy on the last reach or cover him on the last beat."

Rounding the last leeward mark behind me means your fellow hotshots will be waiting at the finish just to watch you lose to the old fat guy.

My very personal selfish objection to this elitist shit is I won't get to serve as a contributing member of the front end of the fleet in which no hotshot dares to finish


If you cannot beat Couchsurfer and me 100% of the time this year, you are not going to the Olympics.
And amazing true??

If you can beat us 100% of the time you can probably win the US trials.

It used to be I could name twenty of us who sailed synthetic level.

Its sorta like a 175 - 180 bowling average. Of you can bust out and get up over 200 you can chase after the professionals and pros almost never get a 175

#31 RobG

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:25 AM

We neither share the same goals for our sport nor agree on whether ISAF should focus on the Olympics

 

I think there is a misconception here.

 

There seems to be a bit of a misconception. Just because ISAF puts out an announcement of the changes to their Olympic circuit doesn't mean that the Olympics is all that the focus on. If any of you had been to ISAF annual and half year meetings, you would know that the Olympics is but a small part of what is going on.

 

I didn't go to any ISAF meetings (or read the minutes), but that's how I understood the announcement. The SWC is the program for those preparing for the Olympics, it's not the sole focus of ISAF.



#32 couchsurfer

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:37 AM

We neither share the same goals for our sport nor agree on whether ISAF should focus on the Olympics

 

I think there is a misconception here.

 

>There seems to be a bit of a misconception. Just because ISAF puts out an announcement of the changes to their Olympic circuit doesn't mean that the Olympics is all that the focus on. If any of you had been to ISAF annual and half year meetings, you would know that the Olympics is but a small part of what is going on.

 

I didn't go to any ISAF meetings (or read the minutes), but that's how I understood the announcement. The SWC is the program for those preparing for the Olympics, it's not the sole focus of ISAF.

 

.

 

...why doesn't isaf simply claim -ownership- of all elite sailors?? <_<  :lol:



#33 Cheap Jibes

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:10 AM

Everyone should take a look at the new ISAF World Championship proposals. Not good for the future of sailing.  It will segregate the top level players from the up and comers and the long time weekend warriors that are good enough to beat national sailing team members but don't want to run an olympic campaign.  Not good imo.

 

http://www.sail-worl...568&NLID=463359

 

http://www.sailing.o...ion-[15701].pdf

 

Totally agree.

 

In our part of the world we are seeing a proliferation of state based youth squads. In principle I don't have a problem with so called high performance squads, except that these youth sailors are now being encouraged to move clubs so they can all sail together. Local clubs are suffering badly from falling participation, and a lot of really good club sailors (who can still beat most of these youth sailors anyway) are becoming very disillusioned. It's happening in at least three classes that I'm aware of and local clubs and associations are getting screwed.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that our sport is built from the grass roots up,

 

Fracturing the participation base and segmenting so called "elite" groups can only end badly for the sport of sailing. Whether it's at an ISAF level, a National level or a regional level, that is probably not the outcome sailing administrators are expecting.

 

Precisely the reason Western Australia moved away from state based youth squads.



#34 RobG

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:38 AM

he point I'm trying to make is that our sport is built from the grass roots up,

 

Fracturing the participation base and segmenting so called "elite" groups can only end badly for the sport of sailing. Whether it's at an ISAF level, a National level or a regional level, that is probably not the outcome sailing administrators are expecting.

 

Precisely the reason Western Australia moved away from state based youth squads.

That is an issue for state organisations, it's nothing to do wtih ISAF. The new structure has 4 levels, the top two are Olympic and World events for "elite" sailors. Below that it's "open to all comers".

 

It makes sense that sailors should compete agains the best available. For that you need regular regattas where all the serious members of a class compete so overall the standard is as high as it can be. Youth squads are one way to do that, but it does draw sailors away from their clubs. A circuit of regattas at different venues (clubs) is another way but it only works if everyone agrees to travel to each venue and not just attend local ones. Another way is to hold regular regattas at one location, of course that favours local sailors.

 

I don't think there's any one right answer. But it has nothing to do with ISAF's new program and everything to do with state, regional or national organisations.



#35 Gouvernail

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:45 AM

I think long range >>>>ISAF needs to designate some official ISAF classes. Perhaps one or two singlehanded boat designs , one or two double handers, one or two with three .

ISAF could begin this process with one or two boats

Let 's say one singlehander and one doublehander.

Then

And this is the key !!!

No
Club could use the ISAF rules of sailing in any event unless that club STOCKED at least one brand new boat of each type, hosted a minimum of twenty five races for those boats annually , and hosted at least one regatta for those boats .

Within five to ten years sailors from these fleets who wished to try other forms of sailboat play would bring a boom to all sailing of any sort from
championship racing to bareboat cruising.

why ? Until the sailing community force the creation of a class whose builders can mass produce and support fleets of affordable toys , there will be no elite level if sailing

Cream does not rise in an empty jug

#36 Phil S

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:09 AM

Sound like a sepic tank Gouv, froth and bubble (Lasers?) rise to the top and all the good bits get lost to the bottom.

Our sport is too diverse to stymie creativity and performance.



#37 fireball

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:37 AM

I think long range >>>>ISAF needs to designate some official ISAF classes. Perhaps one or two singlehanded boat designs , one or two double handers, one or two with three .

ISAF could begin this process with one or two boats

Let 's say one singlehander and one doublehander.

Then

And this is the key !!!

No
Club could use the ISAF rules of sailing in any event unless that club STOCKED at least one brand new boat of each type, hosted a minimum of twenty five races for those boats annually , and hosted at least one regatta for those boats .

Within five to ten years sailors from these fleets who wished to try other forms of sailboat play would bring a boom to all sailing of any sort from
championship racing to bareboat cruising.

why ? Until the sailing community force the creation of a class whose builders can mass produce and support fleets of affordable toys , there will be no elite level if sailing

Cream does not rise in an empty jug

 

 

ISAF already causes enough problems with their bizarre choices for the Olympic classes. And you want them to have more control over the boats people sail?

 

Anyway - last time I checked I was living in a free country. We can buy and sail whatever boats we choose. We don't need a bunch of bureaucrats making all our decisions for us.



#38 Cheap Jibes

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:44 AM



Cream does not rise in an empty jug

 

Brilliant!! I've never heard that before but how relevant.

 

I know this is slightly off topic and may require a new thread, but a lot of the problems with elitism and participation at club level could be resolved if more classes adopted the structure that the VJ (Australia) class had in place more than forty years ago. Basically, local fleets were huge and you had to qualify in your region before you could attend a national championship. For many good sailors just earning the right to put your state's letter on your sail was something to be proud of. 

 

Inevitably the cream did rise to the top and there are plenty of elite sailors who rose through the ranks of the VJs. More importantly, everyone of them contributed to the overall health of their club, regional and state fleets long before they got even close to being able to call themselves elite sailors.

 

Perhaps it's not necessary to reinvent the wheel, perhaps we just need to understand what has worked in the past and improve on it.



#39 dogwatch

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:22 AM

Cream does not rise in an empty jug

A romantic delusion. In reality, cream spends its time going to international regattas. There's pretty much no connection between grassroots strength of a class in a country and medal results.

#40 JimC

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:14 AM

A romantic delusion. In reality, cream spends its time going to international regattas. There's pretty much no connection between grassroots strength of a class in a country and medal results.

 

Yep, if you can sail you can sail, doesn't seem to make much difference what you learn to sail in as long as its reasonably responsive. The problem is for nations/areas which don't have the critical mass to have much strong racing at all. If I were to believe everything I read here the US would be in that category because it seems that much of your sailing talent is diverted off into sitting on the rails of leadmines and getting p****d on the owner's ticket rather than progressing as sailors.



#41 Presuming Ed

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:26 AM

Cream does not rise in an empty jug

 

Generally, milk doesn't actually much like racing against cream on a regular basis. 



#42 Gouvernail

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:31 PM

Generally, I don't pay any attention to who wins a championship unless there is a large fleet at that regatta.
Olympics??
The sailing medals are a pathetic joke compared to most of the others.
Literally billions of people have tried running a hundred yards to test their skills and Bolt had to beat them all to get his medals
For sailing to even get a medal at all from the same committee super cheapens and insults those who compete in real contests.


Sailboat racing is a game statistics say almost
Nobody plays.
The boats used in the Olympics are toys statistics say almost no sailors sail.

Sailing is huge fun and many millions more people could be playing with us if we were to make an available path and invite others to come play .
The first step is to pick a piece of equipment so we can actually play the game once we show up.

Freedom to choose whatever toy you want and simply show up expecting to play does not encumber soccer, basketball, golf, tennis, etc

Everybody at a gymnastics meet has to perform on the exact the same equipment

Sailing has Portsmouth, PHRF, and a slew of development classes.

I have nothing against those who want to have toy building contests or contests to see who can buy the best toys.
I simply believe the very most fun and entertaining contests are those where the skills of the competitors as they play the game are the absolute only factors in the contest.

I have sailed in huge fleets, medium sized fleets , and all sorts of handicap fleets. There is a game played in fleets of sixty identical boats and above that simply does not exist in smaller numbers or non similar boats.
The existence of huge fleets does no harm to the games played in tiny fleets and huge fleets don't stop anybody from designing a new toy for a development class
But
There is no choosing lanes or positioning for a great rounding when the course is not full of competitors.
I think the very most thrilling experience available is found on a sailboat competing for about tenth to twentieth place in a one hundred boat fleet. I love the feel of first place in a fleet like that and have pulled it off a few times but the contests in the middle of the fleet are continuous and not over until after crossing the finish line.
In first place you don't have to worry about bad air or overlaps at buoys or room at the finish line .

Every year I bust my ass to host the biggest one design regatta I can assemble because I believe sailing in a huge one design fleet is the singular most fun game on the planet.

Nobody has to come.

People do come because it is fun.

Unfortunately my regatta in Texas is a nearly unique experience anymore . Our huge one design fleets have pretty much died.

Nobody has to sell his J-80 or A Class cat because I am trying to make huge one design races happen

In fact , I am certain that if there were a. 100 boat Laser fleet sailing every Wednesday night on any body of water anywhere, there would be more sailing toys of other types used both by the Laser sailors and those who just wanted some other sailing toy.

Step one to make MY favorite game popular worldwide is for clubs all over the world to support a game played on identical toys.
We almost got it going with Snipes on the fifties and sixties.
We almost got it going with Lasers in the seventies and there is still a glimmer of hope for Lasers
We almost got it going with. J-24s in the early to mid eighties

And since then our freedom to diversify combined with the lack of a committed enthusiast with sufficient capital to force his boat into worldwide supremacy has left us with no worldwide one design sailing fleet.

I see ISAF as a tool to be used by the sailing community to enhance our game .

I would use that tool to choose a group of official one design boats so we could have the sort of competition available only in huge one design fleets.

I believe that is the highest possible use of the tool called ISAF.

ISAF can be used in other ways as well but my first priority is building a sailing game played in huge fleets .

I don't oppose having ISAF do other things like manage Handicap racing, Olympics, or judge training programs.
But

First
According to me

Build the game played by the masses using identical boats

#43 JimC

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:59 PM

Freedom to choose whatever toy you want and simply show up expecting to play does not encumber soccer, basketball, golf, tennis, etc

I must be imagining all those selections of sports shoes, golf clubs and golf balls, different rackets etc I see in the sports shops then eh Gouv?



#44 fastyacht

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:22 PM

Boats are only identical when the sailors are also identical in hegith and weight.



#45 Gouvernail

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 05:57 AM


Freedom to choose whatever toy you want and simply show up expecting to play does not encumber soccer, basketball, golf, tennis, etc

I must be imagining all those selections of sports shoes, golf clubs and golf balls, different rackets etc I see in the sports shops then eh Gouv?


The various legal golf balls are more identical than Lasers.
The clubs are limited in many ways including how far they can hit a ball.
When players find ways to enhance their performance with equipment, most sports write new rules regulating if banishing that equipment

Full body suits for swimmers
Belly putters in golf
The huge tennis racquet contest / craze has been reined in a bit already
From corked bars to spitballs baseball has rules
Remember tear away jerseys in football ?? Gone!!
Football players damned sure can't use. McLube

#46 Gouvernail

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 05:58 AM


Freedom to choose whatever toy you want and simply show up expecting to play does not encumber soccer, basketball, golf, tennis, etc

I must be imagining all those selections of sports shoes, golf clubs and golf balls, different rackets etc I see in the sports shops then eh Gouv?


The various legal golf balls are more identical than Lasers.
The clubs are limited in many ways including how far they can hit a ball.
When players find ways to enhance their performance with equipment, most sports write new rules regulating if banishing that equipment

Full body suits for swimmers
Belly putters in golf
The huge tennis racquet contest / craze has been reined in a bit already
From corked bars to spitballs baseball has rules
Remember tear away jerseys in football ?? Gone!!
Football players damned sure can't use. McLube

#47 Gouvernail

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 06:15 AM

Note: some of the writers seem to think I am against something they think they want
Not at all.
I am simply FOR the ISAF choosing some official size and weight play toys for use in some officially sanctioned ISAF contests

#48 couchsurfer

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 02:08 PM

Note: some of the writers seem to think I am against something they think they want
Not at all.
I am simply FOR the ISAF choosing some official size and weight play toys for use in some officially sanctioned ISAF contests

.

 

..whatever dude,,to keep milking the milk metaphors-----I'm finding you a bit 'wordy' to bother reading...

.......... beyond a quick -skim- ;)

 

....isaf can do what they want with the elite's and classes they choose--if you want to play that game,,,you play by their rules.

 

........what really 'sours' me though,is that the courses they choose for the Olympics have become the course I'll race at a little b'fark regatta I sail this weekend......

---I have as much interest in going to the Olympics as sailing windward-leeward courses -all- the time <_<

 

.......i.e.....what happened to the good ol'Bermuda,or 'gold-cup' triangle/WL courses??!? :mellow:



#49 Gouvernail

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:06 AM

It is amazing how often we agree.
Sausage fests suck

#50 fastyacht

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:32 AM

It is amazing how often we agree.
Sausage fests suck

But the snausages came about because other people kept saying, "triangles suck".



#51 couchsurfer

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:03 AM

It is amazing how often we agree.
Sausage fests suck

But the snausages came about because other people kept saying, "triangles suck".

.

 

..was doing those 'snausages' today on lasers in full on breeze and waves... 

....  they're a great test of skill and all,,but for an in-town fleet in 25kn they can be a bit much,,hence 1/2 the fleet was on shore before the 4th race....had the committee chosen to do some reaches in those conditions,,I dare say most would still have been out!

 

........ reaches provide their own challenges,,and add a diversity to the day's racing,,,and are great fun,,,,,,but I have nothing against either format---just the elimination of one of them because that's what the 'elite's are doing :mellow:



#52 fastyacht

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:42 AM

 

It is amazing how often we agree.
Sausage fests suck

But the snausages came about because other people kept saying, "triangles suck".

.

 

..was doing those 'snausages' today on lasers in full on breeze and waves... 

....  they're a great test of skill and all,,but for an in-town fleet in 25kn they can be a bit much,,hence 1/2 the fleet was on shore before the 4th race....had the committee chosen to do some reaches in those conditions,,I dare say most would still have been out!

 

........ reaches provide their own challenges,,and add a diversity to the day's racing,,,and are great fun,,,,,,but I have nothing against either format---just the elimination of one of them because that's what the 'elite's are doing :mellow:

 

When I was in college we still raced lasers. Lots of triangle courses.  In those winds, the gybe mark was a supreme test. And you could gain a lot of ground on the reach too.  Forgotten art today, I guess.



#53 couchsurfer

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 06:21 AM

 

 

It is amazing how often we agree.
Sausage fests suck

But the snausages came about because other people kept saying, "triangles suck".

.

 

..was doing those 'snausages' today on lasers in full on breeze and waves... 

....  they're a great test of skill and all,,but for an in-town fleet in 25kn they can be a bit much,,hence 1/2 the fleet was on shore before the 4th race....had the committee chosen to do some reaches in those conditions,,I dare say most would still have been out!

 

........ reaches provide their own challenges,,and add a diversity to the day's racing,,,and are great fun,,,,,,but I have nothing against either format---just the elimination of one of them because that's what the 'elite's are doing :mellow:

 

When I was in college we still raced lasers. Lots of triangle courses.  In those winds, the gybe mark was a supreme test. And you could gain a lot of ground on the reach too.  Forgotten art today, I guess.

.

 

...yeh,,sad but true.



#54 JimC

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 07:29 AM

I do find something awfully ironic that on the same age that the vocal claim that high performance is the future of sailing, there is also a vocal group that suggests racing should only be practised on the slowest points of sailing...

#55 fastyacht

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 12:25 PM

+++111



#56 teknologika

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:52 PM

On faster than the wind boats, where you tack downwind, WL courses are a lot more tatically challenging than a triangle with one gybe. I can Imagine they would be quite painful in a laser though.

#57 couchsurfer

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:41 PM

On faster than the wind boats, where you tack downwind, WL courses are a lot more tatically challenging than a triangle with one gybe. I can Imagine they would be quite painful in a laser though.

.

 

So true on high-perf boats with BIG chutes,a triangle course can be very limiting

 ,,,,,,,,,,,but don't the moths also prefer a triangle course?**

 

 

 

 

...**....I may be totally misinformed on this



#58 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:04 PM

Everyone should take a look at the new ISAF World Championship proposals. Not good for the future of sailing.  It will segregate the top level players from the up and comers and the long time weekend warriors that are good enough to beat national sailing team members but don't want to run an olympic campaign.  Not good imo.

 

http://www.sail-worl...568&NLID=463359

 

http://www.sailing.o...ion-[15701].pdf

This has happened before.  Between the 1996 and 2000 Olympics changes were made that pretty much ruled out most of the sailors in Olympic classes from being able to compete.  You went down to one schedule one event in the US which was Miami OCR.  When I was sailing Tornados there were 4-5 OCR events in the US and Canada.  One of the things this forced was travel overseas to compete so that you could keep your world ranking.  This in turn raised the cost of doing an Olympic campaign beyond those 2-5 teams that could get sponsorship.  These changes are a further continuation of this thought process and will further narrow down those who have the means to compete.



#59 DavidG

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 05:35 PM

My problem with this is that if ISAF is trying to make sailing more media and sponsor friendly, a tryst that professional or olympic sailors might be prepared to accept in return to making a carreer out of sailing, eventually a lot of this media friendly stuff will work down into the Racing Rules, which will affect us all.  

 

There are already changes to our rules that make racing more dificult and less enjoyable for the Corinthian sailor, and there are sections of the rulebook which don't work when the rules are applied away from open water (obstruction, continuous obstruction).

 

It is only a matter of time before even more changes are imposed on us in order to make our sport look good on TV.



#60 teknologika

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 08:13 PM

Moths evolved from big triangles to P's to WL now. So in the low riding days the triangles were great, but we now are pretty much 100 % WL courses, and we all acknowledge that it sucks for scow sailors.

#61 SimonN

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 09:34 PM

Everyone should take a look at the new ISAF World Championship proposals. Not good for the future of sailing.  It will segregate the top level players from the up and comers and the long time weekend warriors that are good enough to beat national sailing team members but don't want to run an olympic campaign.  Not good imo.

 

http://www.sail-worl...568&NLID=463359

 

http://www.sailing.o...ion-[15701].pdf

This has happened before.  Between the 1996 and 2000 Olympics changes were made that pretty much ruled out most of the sailors in Olympic classes from being able to compete.  You went down to one schedule one event in the US which was Miami OCR.  When I was sailing Tornados there were 4-5 OCR events in the US and Canada.  One of the things this forced was travel overseas to compete so that you could keep your world ranking.  This in turn raised the cost of doing an Olympic campaign beyond those 2-5 teams that could get sponsorship.  These changes are a further continuation of this thought process and will further narrow down those who have the means to compete.

I am confused by something. Why do you think that the US and Canada should have more Olympic classes regattas per number of competitors than other countries? I was competing back then and always thought it was ridiculous that the US had so few competitors yet they had so many regattas. It gave you all the chance to earn easy ranking points, while the rest of us battled it out in huge fleets against the best in our geographical area (Europe). A few of my friends used to go over to the US to pick up easy ranking points.

 

These changes do not narrow down those who can compete. There is nothing that says these regattas are compulsory. I would be very surprised if these new regattas were given any real importance by a team such as GBR, just like the last attempt at a World Cup type series, because there is so little correlation between winning at the Olympics and being able to win multi-class Olympic classes events such as the ones being suggested or, for that matter, with being ranked world no.1. My guess is that these regattas will only be given any priority by Team GBR if they feel there are training benefits which contribute to the bigger goal - peaking for qualification and winning medals.



#62 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:11 PM

I am confused by something. Why do you think that the US and Canada should have more Olympic classes regattas per number of competitors than other countries? I was competing back then and always thought it was ridiculous that the US had so few competitors yet they had so many regattas. It gave you all the chance to earn easy ranking points, while the rest of us battled it out in huge fleets against the best in our geographical area (Europe). A few of my friends used to go over to the US to pick up easy ranking points.

I am not sure where you were attending.  1992 Marblehead OCR 87 Tornados, 90+Stars and I am not sure of the other classes.  Quebec OCR had about the same numbers.  Miami was larger and I do not know about the west coast events but remember them well attended.  It was after 1996 that the numbers really dropped. We had 85 Tornados at the 1996 Olympic trials.  There were 7-10 in 2000, 8 in 2004 and 5 in 2008.  These changes basically killed the interest in sailing in Olympic classes.  Up through 1996 you could show up at the trials, win them and go to the Olympics.  The whole world ranking and having to travel escalated the costs beyond those of us mere mortals, not that I had any chance of winning the trials. 



#63 SimonN

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:39 PM

Maybe I am referring to the 1996 to 2000 period, but may I ask a question. With those OCR regattas, how many were from overseas and how many from the USA? The reason I ask is because of debate I see in other classes. The US has some big fleets which do not travel and support the International scene. Why should the international scene support a fleet that doesn't travel? I don't know if this is the case, so I am just asking.

 

What I don't understand is what changed. I would argue that you need to be looking at your national authority and the regatta organisers, rather than ISAF. In the UK, the British OCR (Weymouth Olympic Week) also lost its status, but it was still run. If there was so much demand, why didn't the regattas survive? Maybe I am getting over sensitive to the chest beating from the USA about their performance at the Olympics, but the Aussies seem to do pretty well on one top grade event (Melbourne) which isn't usually that well attended by overseas competitors (unless there is some Worlds or other such thing going on or soon after). To blame ISAF and regatta status for interest in the Olympics in a particular country seems to me to be rather weak when I suspect the true answer is closer to home.

 

I should also ask why the obsession with World rankings? Why is somebody who just wants to take part obsessed with them? I don't understand why even the top guys are obsessed with rankings, because I know that the Brits certainly aren't.



#64 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:25 PM

Maybe I am referring to the 1996 to 2000 period, but may I ask a question. With those OCR regattas, how many were from overseas and how many from the USA? The reason I ask is because of debate I see in other classes. The US has some big fleets which do not travel and support the International scene. Why should the international scene support a fleet that doesn't travel? I don't know if this is the case, so I am just asking.

Simon,

 

I am just a chef who loves to sail so I am probably the wrong person to answer this question.  I sailed in an Olympic class from 1988 to 1996.  I probably would have continued through 2000 had the rules not changed.  I do not know how it is now, but most of us who sail still have to support families and other things.  I could not have even thought about traveling outside the US back then without support.  I think traveling around Europe is about like traveling around the US and people forget that.  I am always amazed when I get to Europe just how easy it is to travel from Italy to Belgium.  I think that we are also just now beginning to recover from the economic issues we have faced.  That in itself has stopped some travel.  But back to the point, if it is ISAF's point to develop world competitions than this may be the way to do it.  It effectively cut off growth and competition in these classes at that time.  I see there is great interest in the Nacra 17 at least, but in this country it is 4-6 teams.  Thanks, Tom 



#65 dogwatch

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:55 PM

^

 

With respect, what's the point of people who aren't doing international regattas going to the Olympics? They will just get slaughtered. Sailing at that level is a full-time job and has been for a long time now. It just isn't for people with jobs outside sailing and families to support.

 

This is exactly why classes with any sense don't want to be Olympic classes.



#66 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:05 PM

The point was to get good enough to compete on a world class level and to have events where you could sail against the best in your nation to get there.  Once you were sailing at that level funding was easier to obtain.  We finished in 2 & 3 in 4 OCR events in those years.  The ability to sail against the likes of Pete Melvin, Jay Glaser, Randy Smythe and so on helped elevate every sailor's abilities. Besides what you pick up on the water, it was what you picked up off the water that sometimes really helped you grow.  Kind of funny because since those days the US has had much more trouble winning medals then it had when it had truly active Olympic events running in this nation.  Look at the results over the last 2-3 Olympic cycles. I started racing in a Olympic class so maybe I don't know any better. 



#67 bruno

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:48 PM

Agree with da chef, euros big advantage is being able to drive from one national champs to another weekly with the odd ORC interspersed all year long pretty much. In NAmerica there used to be an internal coherent circuit with Canadian, US, and some Latin Am participants. We had visiting foreigners and some would get to go international. It worked pretty well for 40 years until the teams reoriented to world rankings, then it died. Aussies and kiwis have a thriving domestic racing scene which then funds the best to Europe, NA was/is more dependent on Oly classes for talent development, kill the pipeline, kill the talent.

#68 stinger

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:56 PM

Agree with da chef, euros big advantage is being able to drive from one national champs to another weekly with the odd ORC interspersed all year long pretty much. In NAmerica there used to be an internal coherent circuit with Canadian, US, and some Latin Am participants. We had visiting foreigners and some would get to go international. It worked pretty well for 40 years until the teams reoriented to world rankings, then it died. Aussies and kiwis have a thriving domestic racing scene which then funds the best to Europe, NA was/is more dependent on Oly classes for talent development, kill the pipeline, kill the talent.

Couldn't have said it better!



#69 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:14 PM

Agree with da chef, euros big advantage is being able to drive from one national champs to another weekly with the odd ORC interspersed all year long pretty much. In NAmerica there used to be an internal coherent circuit with Canadian, US, and some Latin Am participants. We had visiting foreigners and some would get to go international. It worked pretty well for 40 years until the teams reoriented to world rankings, then it died. Aussies and kiwis have a thriving domestic racing scene which then funds the best to Europe, NA was/is more dependent on Oly classes for talent development, kill the pipeline, kill the talent.

Thanks for getting stated the right way.  I couldn't find the right words to express what you just have but it was what I was trying to say.  Again, Thanks,  TTS



#70 rantifarian

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 12:16 AM

Agree with da chef, euros big advantage is being able to drive from one national champs to another weekly with the odd ORC interspersed all year long pretty much. In NAmerica there used to be an internal coherent circuit with Canadian, US, and some Latin Am participants. We had visiting foreigners and some would get to go international. It worked pretty well for 40 years until the teams reoriented to world rankings, then it died. Aussies and kiwis have a thriving domestic racing scene which then funds the best to Europe, NA was/is more dependent on Oly classes for talent development, kill the pipeline, kill the talent.

I think thriving domestic racing might be a stretch when you talk about most of the olympic classes in Aus/NZ. 13 boats at the last 470 aus nationals, that is combined men and womens fleets. 12 49ers, and 7 49er FX (including 2 from singapore). Hardly what I would call a thriving fleet racing scene



#71 RobG

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 12:39 AM

Agree with da chef, euros big advantage is being able to drive from one national champs to another weekly with the odd ORC interspersed all year long pretty much. In NAmerica there used to be an internal coherent circuit with Canadian, US, and some Latin Am participants. We had visiting foreigners and some would get to go international. It worked pretty well for 40 years until the teams reoriented to world rankings, then it died. Aussies and kiwis have a thriving domestic racing scene which then funds the best to Europe, NA was/is more dependent on Oly classes for talent development, kill the pipeline, kill the talent.

I think thriving domestic racing might be a stretch when you talk about most of the olympic classes in Aus/NZ. 13 boats at the last 470 aus nationals, that is combined men and womens fleets. 12 49ers, and 7 49er FX (including 2 from singapore). Hardly what I would call a thriving fleet racing scene

 

+1.

 

Only a few have the funds to compete internationally, which is an absolute requirement to reach Olympic or World Championship level with any chance of a win. Government funding through YA is sufficient for each team to make one international regatta per year. The rest (hundreds of thousands of dollars) comes from family, friends and clubs raising funds.



#72 bruno

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 12:52 AM

Obviously did not make my meaning clear: thriving domestic classes develop talent which then goes international, often in Oly classes due to funding availability. Viz star class.

#73 dogwatch

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:13 AM

Obviously did not make my meaning clear: thriving domestic classes develop talent which then goes international, often in Oly classes due to funding availability. Viz star class.

 

OK let's look at the Star class. In the last 20 years GBR has won 2 Golds and 2 Silvers in the class, which has zero domestic high-end presence. There's one club-level fleet that has, afaik, no connection to Olympic-level sailing at all. Apart from that, there's no domestic scene. Zilch, zip, nada.

 

"Thriving domestic classes develop talent which then goes international" describes how Olympic classes sailing worked 30 years ago. The game has changed. The USA is the last major sailing nation to wake up to that.



#74 bruno

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:06 AM

Again, not being clear enough, as I understand it there is little to no participation in austrailia and new zealend in majority of Olympic Classes but they do pretty well for themselves in the Games, why? My impression is that they do a great job (helps to have an eager populace actively interested in sailboat racing) building up a large base of talented sailors in their domestic Non-Olympic Classboat racing. The top sailors then get a chance to try Olympic Classboat racing and then if they make the National teams then they get funded to race overseas. There, hope that is clear enough.

#75 bruno

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:13 AM

So , again just to be clear, if that is the model the Isaf are choosing to follow, they may get better sailors in the Olympics but they will not likely increase Olympic class participation on a national or regional level. Which means, again to be clear, that the Oly classes will no longer be at all representative of actively raced classes any where in the world.

#76 dogwatch

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:13 AM

^

 

I agree with that but it's not the same as what TornadoSail2016 was arguing (I think!) and it also means, going back to the ISAF proposals, that whatever ISAF may do with Olympic Class events does not effect the feeder process you describe.

 

In GBR Olympic classes are already "not representative of actively raced classes", with the exception of the Laser, Radial and Finn. Those three will carry along regardless of what ISAF may do (subject to the outcome of the Laser spat).



#77 fastyacht

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:28 PM

Explain the starboat thing viz England.  I used to race them. Lots to figure out. How do you go from a non-starboat to an olympic gold in Star?  I don't understand how that is possible.



#78 Presuming Ed

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:59 PM

Because talent - whatever combination of nature and nurture that it is - will out (Iain Percy, Hamish Pepper etc). Fast sailors sail fast. You then give them a good boat & sail development plan, and they go and race their peers on the international regatta circuit, and learn a lot more than they would beating up lower level competition. 

 

For club racing, the spindly mast that's easy to break (*) and need for a big bloke to crew is a negative compared to the three most popular two person keelboats in the UK - the Squib (the quintessential husband and wife boat), the Devon Yawl and the Flying Fifteen. 

 

*( When you're buying the kit yourself, things like that matter). 



#79 dogwatch

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 05:29 PM

Explain the starboat thing viz England.  I used to race them. Lots to figure out. How do you go from a non-starboat to an olympic gold in Star?  I don't understand how that is possible.

 

David Howlett. http://www.telegraph...edal-maker.html



#80 bruno

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 05:38 PM

And thats the problem, the iyru has already demonstrated its propensity for being captured, defaulting to a complete top down model for the 5 ring circus is not going to help. Whats next foiling olympic carbon cats only available to a select few 260 lb crews...? And we relate to them how? At least 80-85 k sailors have a shot in Moths.

#81 SimonN

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 09:16 PM

Surely the last thing Olympic sailing should do is to choose classes that are representative of actively raced classes. That would be like F1 being driven in 4 door sedans. There is nothing wrong with Olympic sailing being in "elite" classes and having elite events. It does nothing to harm grass roots sailing and to attack ISAF over this is plain crazy.

 

I find it interesting that the vast majority who are against this Olympic circuit are from the USA. Quite rightly, they are looking for somebody to blame for the poor Olympic results of recent years and for the decline in competitive sailing, particularly in Olympic classes. I would suggest that the real problem is your national authority. Look at the UK. Since Weymouth Olympic Week got taken off the main tour, Team GBR have gone from strength to strength. In other classes, we still see strong grass roots sailing, maybe not as good as the heydays of the past, but doing better than the global trend. This has been done with zero assistance from ISAF. And before anybody starts talking about lottery money, grass roots sailing benefits little from this (although some clubs do receive grants for facilities upgrades).

 

And as for the accusation that all ISAF looks at is the Olympics, maybe some of you need to actually dig into what ISAF does before making those comments. I think the problem is that the Olympics is the "glamour" stuff that makes the headlines, and it further makes the headlines because it is responsible for over 50% of ISAF's revenues, yet when you look at it properly, it takes a far smaller amount of the resources, both human and financial than people realise.



#82 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:08 PM

I find it interesting that the vast majority who are against this Olympic circuit are from the USA. Quite rightly, they are looking for somebody to blame for the poor Olympic results of recent years and for the decline in competitive sailing, particularly in Olympic classes.

 

And as for the accusation that all ISAF looks at is the Olympics, maybe some of you need to actually dig into what ISAF does before making those comments. I think the problem is that the Olympics is the "glamour" stuff that makes the headlines, and it further makes the headlines because it is responsible for over 50% of ISAF's revenues, yet when you look at it properly, it takes a far smaller amount of the resources, both human and financial than people realise.

Yes Simon,

 

I am from the US.  I do not blame ISAF or the new system for the failures that have happened in the Olympics.  I was just stating that pre-professionals you had a much greater participation in these classes and the circuit that was going on in the US at that time produced some truly great racers, at least in my class, the Tornado. I cannot state was what going on in the other classes except what I saw at the OCR events when we all shared the same courses, club, launching facilities and so on.  Having raced in a few of these over the years I raced, I saw lively, well attended events that featured great racing.  Everyone involved grew because of their attendance at the events.  You game improved because you were sailing against top level sailors and you learned a lot from them.  Since I have not raced in classes other than the Tornado and A-Class I do not know what happens on the shore, but in these two classes it is pretty open and sharing.  Racers that stomp you once you leave the beach and coach and assist you when you get off the course.  It is just a different game today than it was then and that is fine. 

 

Thanks,

TTS



#83 bruno

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 03:29 AM

I do not recall mentioning that I was seeking to blame somebody for something, I do recall saying that I think the Australian and New Zealand sailing teams have done well in the Olympics lately, as have a number of other nations. simon, you say that Olympic sailing should be like F1 circuit, which is what I am decrying rather than whining about NAmerican Olympic performances of late. I simply disagree, i do not think the Olympics should run an F1 style event in any sport, the closest it comes is skiing. And particularly sailing, which used to be a week+ long endurance competition has now been reduced to a double points final race inshore, should imho not be captured by monied interests any more than present. Sailing a la Manfred Curry was chess game that also tested physical and technical proficiency. SMODS reduce part of that, higher speeds also a bit, and shortening the competition definitely does.

But others may feel differently and that is their right.

#84 JimC

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:54 AM

I would suggest that the real problem is your national authority.

I don't know, I suspect it's just sailing culture. US medals appear to me to have had a bias towards keelboat classes, and much talk on SA from the US appears to be about how clubs can get young sailors out of dinghies into bigger craft.

If your sailing scene downgrades unballasted sailing, can you really expect to be successful in the modern Olympics against other nations who do not have that culture?

#85 BalticBandit

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:59 AM

One of the side effects of this ISAF approach is that it will kill off the chances of smaller nation teams to compete.  What it means is that nations like the Baltics or Jamaica which have traditionally relied on "self-funded" teams to represent them.  Now this is not new.  It is completely consistent with the rules changes the Olympics made to prevent things like The Jamaican Bobsled Team and Eddie the Eagle.

 

Which were frankly one of the really interesting reasons to watch the Olympics

 

To Simon's point about complaints coming from the USA - I think in part that's because in sailing the USA is more like the smaller nations of the world .  Even at the Univ. level, most sailing is considered a  "club sport"   - IE eligible to get you a 'Varsity Letter'  but not to get you funding from the Athletic department, and no funding at the high school level in the public school system (some elite private schools do sailing)



#86 bruno

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:57 AM

I would suggest that the real problem is your national authority.

I don't know, I suspect it's just sailing culture. US medals appear to me to have had a bias towards keelboat classes, and much talk on SA from the US appears to be about how clubs can get young sailors out of dinghies into bigger craft.
If your sailing scene downgrades unballasted sailing, can you really expect to be successful in the modern Olympics against other nations who do not have that culture?

Thats valid, but i am trying to avoid addressing the blatant disrespect from fat lazy slobs for skiff and dinghy sailors, that is a different topic. I am trying to go beyond parochial interests in my criticism, stars were merely intended as an example a former olly class and how nauthorities policies affect participation. Personally i do not regard a finn as a keelboat, rather the best limited development class in the olympics, vs. the new nacra 17, which sound like a fun boat to sail for a finnster and someone around 100 lbs.




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