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The New Apparent Wind Sailing

Motorsail Apparent Wind Ecology Green Stupid

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#1 fastyacht

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:14 PM

Take a look!  All our problems are solved!

 

http://www.nrk.no/vi...segl-1.11220910

bmzvxwaW3wMFRyHjFOhRNA2BXgHGfDgLtRizIeDg

 

Wow!  Why didn't I think of that!  Wow, it's patented, too!  A patented motorsailer!



#2 Fleetwood

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:18 PM

How do you reef it? (Apart from the Costa Concordia way!)



#3 fastyacht

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:23 PM

With a computer routing system, apparently.



#4 sidmon

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:24 PM

If this thing is about saving fuel, then how come they depict it breaking away from an oiler??

 

military-preps-for-broader-haiti-relief-



#5 SHNOOL

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:24 PM

Can I buy a vowel?  or a few consonants? or a translator?

and um, photoshop?



#6 Trickypig

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:27 PM

Stick it into Google Translate and you get this:

 

 

A cargo ship that can use air as the driving force in the same way that the seal in a sealed vessel can be the world's most environmentally friendly cargo .
 
I hope at least entrepreneurial Terje Charging behind the idea of ​​the registered trademark Wind Ship .
 
- Draumen to sail fast
Sailing and speed were the starting point for Terje charge that has a past as a performer of speed- sailing , a sport that is a cross between sail and fly .
 
- This is the dream to sail fast, hunger for speed, which eventually went over to become a concern for the environment and the earth , and when was born Wind Ship , victory charge .
 
Also read : Will curb global warming with robot ships
Wind Ship based on principles from a sailing boat , with the boat being pulled forward by pressure differences around the seal .
 
But instead of using a seal that creates a suction future , it is actual hull Wind Ship to act as an air seal , explains Terje Charge to NRK.
 
The optimum angle to the wind the wind the ship go on the power of wind . Under less optimal conditions , gas is a supplement to the wind. Therefore, it is estimated that the ship can use only one -third of the energy compared to a " normal " ships.
 
Less energy means that the ship can replace heavy oil as fuel with natural gas.
 
The ship will also add the route according to where it is most current and wind conditions .
 
See video showing the principle behind Wind Ship :


#7 fastyacht

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:30 PM

You can read it in English at Maritime Reporter and Engineering News (current issue, on paper, not web).



#8 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:39 PM

The ship will also add the route according to where it is most current and wind conditions .

what if your cargo is due to be unloaded at port in the other direction ?

I think routes picked on trade wind data could be worked out, like the old sqr rigger route britain-australia, pick up new cargo (wheat-wool) then from australia -> britain/western europe,
all with prevailing winds

Is there any favourable wind direction(s) for Hyundais leaving sth Korea ?

#9 madboutcats

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:46 PM

Only a robot would be in that cabin when it gets rolling sideways in some decent waves and how about a bit of a blow while its unloading the Hyundais



#10 fastyacht

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:55 PM

The ship will also add the route according to where it is most current and wind conditions .

what if your cargo is due to be unloaded at port in the other direction ?

I think routes picked on trade wind data could be worked out, like the old sqr rigger route britain-australia, pick up new cargo (wheat-wool) then from australia -> britain/western europe,
all with prevailing winds

Is there any favourable wind direction(s) for Hyundais leaving sth Korea ?

 

Trouble is, the designer is trying to take advantage of apparent wind rather than following wind and seas. And he can't adjust the sails and they are sheeted close-hauled....



#11 The Advocate

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:58 PM

Looks like the front will fall off to me.



#12 fastyacht

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:02 AM

If this thing is about saving fuel, then how come they depict it breaking away from an oiler??

 

military-preps-for-broader-haiti-relief-

Haha!



#13 pogen

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:05 AM

With no boom, how do you tell if he is on starboard?



#14 Paul Romain Tober

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:05 AM

Looks like the front will fall off to me.


Only if it hits a wave.

#15 P_Wop

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 02:09 AM

Looks like the front will fall off to me.


Only if it hits a wave.

 

At sea?  Chance in a million....



#16 spin echo

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:15 AM

Great idea,  but the vertical center of gravity is very high and the windage is tremendous. Its not going to be fast enough to outrun weather systems and being caught in a storm with the high vcg and windage will be catastrophic. The concept is great, hope something along the lines does comes into fruition.



#17 JimC

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:13 AM

Great idea,  but the vertical center of gravity is very high and the windage is tremendous.

To these uneducated eyes COG and windage doesn't look that different to half the container ships coming into Southampton...



#18 Daiquiri

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:19 AM

Great idea,  but the vertical center of gravity is very high and the windage is tremendous. Its not going to be fast enough to outrun weather systems and being caught in a storm with the high vcg and windage will be catastrophic. The concept is great, hope something along the lines does comes into fruition.

Well, something which works along the same lines does already exist, is proven to be doable, doesn't have to move the whole boat to adjust the sail angle, and can reef the sails when necessary.

 

It is called - a motorsailer:

 

.dsn-kodl.gif

 

:D   <_<



#19 sidmon

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:37 AM

Yep...A concept perfected a century and a half ago...

 

And it was tough back then too!

 

http://query.nytimes...4D0405B8484F0D3

 

The-Steam-And-Sail-Ship-Lydian-Monarch.j

 

 

 

You want your goods to not spike up spectacularly in price?

 

Then evolution has been a good thing...

 

Majestic-Maersk.jpg



#20 Icedtea

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:59 AM

Kill it, kill it with fire and bleach



#21 spin echo

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:29 PM

Great idea,  but the vertical center of gravity is very high and the windage is tremendous.

To these uneducated eyes COG and windage doesn't look that different to half the container ships coming into Southampton...

 

Hey Mr. Educated,  the ship proposed is many times the height of the biggest E-class container ship.  Its like one giant solid sail, the sail area of which you cannot reduce and the speed is not high enough to outrun weather systems. If you gonna talk smack, at least give a valid argument.



#22 'moondance44

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:02 PM

What's it rate? 

 

And will the builder support a one design class?

 

 

Another issue is speed in delivery. Sometimes (usually) you want to get your goods to market as quickly as possible.  



#23 Daiquiri

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:53 PM

Another issue is speed in delivery. Sometimes (usually) you want to get your goods to market as quickly as possible.  

It is a matter of contractual obligations, logistics and planning. It is generally important to deliver at minimum cost, respecting the time schedules defined by the contract. In those rare occasions when it's the max speed that matters, one uses the air freight... ;)



#24 Steam Flyer

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:59 PM

Another issue is speed in delivery. Sometimes (usually) you want to get your goods to market as quickly as possible.  

It is a matter of contractual obligations, logistics and planning. It is generally important to deliver at minimum cost, respecting the time schedules defined by the contract. In those rare occasions when it's the max speed that matters, one uses the air freight... ;)

 

 

Modern ships are fast, not as a matter of "getting goods to market quickly" but as a matter of maximising income. The ship that delivers the most cargoes per year also delivers the highest income per year. This is a point always overlooked by those advocating a return to wind-powered shipping.

 

FB- Doug



#25 Raked aft \\

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:50 PM

the problem i see is to make any way into or beam to the wind, she would need a keel or board some hundreds of feet deep.

anything less and the boat would be pushed beam to and side slip all over the place...

 

  hundreds of feet of draft aint gonna cut it when it comes to docking, or even getting near a port for that matter...



#26 spin echo

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:41 PM

Dykstra Ecoline,  thats the way to go. Just like Maltese Falcon, easy to control the sail area, but will need something for lateral resistance anyway,  a keel or centerboard, the draft of which maybe a huge problem, like RakedAft said.  Maybe huge beam will give form stability.

Attached Files



#27 fastyacht

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:25 PM

You are overplaying the lateral plane problem. Clipper ships worked just fine.



#28 nolatom

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:57 PM

Maybe a heavy  low-speed cargo like timber?

 

And multiple masts but with booms and simpler rigging than the Dykstra Ecoline to use less electricity and be more 'green'?

 

And reefable sails and a lower CG  and windage than the "Vindship"??

 

 

 

We could call it a "coastal lumber schooner".

 

 

I'm off to get my patent....



#29 Daiquiri

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:03 AM

You are overplaying the lateral plane problem. Clipper ships worked just fine.

True. And besides that, on ships that size it is no problem to find a space for a hydraulically actuated retractable keel of the necessary size. Designing these things is my everyday job.



#30 fastyacht

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:25 PM

You are overplaying the lateral plane problem. Clipper ships worked just fine.

True. And besides that, on ships that size it is no problem to find a space for a hydraulically actuated retractable keel of the necessary size. Designing these things is my everyday job.

I hope you have a moonlighting gig, too. I have yet to meet a living clipper ship designer who makes a living at it;-)



#31 Daiquiri

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:17 PM

I hope you have a moonlighting gig, too. I have yet to meet a living clipper ship designer who makes a living at it;-)

ROTFL!  :D

 

I mean, designing various mechanical stuff for things like these:
https://www.google.i...iw=1430&bih=792

these

https://www.google.i...iw=1430&bih=792

and these:

https://www.google.i...fe=off&tbm=isch

No need for moonlighting gigs yet, fortunately. ;)



#32 fastyacht

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:50 PM

I hope you have a moonlighting gig, too. I have yet to meet a living clipper ship designer who makes a living at it;-)

ROTFL!  :D

 

I mean, designing various mechanical stuff for things like these:
https://www.google.i...iw=1430&bih=792

these

https://www.google.i...iw=1430&bih=792

and these:

https://www.google.i...fe=off&tbm=isch

No need for moonlighting gigs yet, fortunately. ;)

Tell me you didn't design the helipad for this one:

offshore_vessels_638x393.jpg



#33 Daiquiri

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:18 PM

Tell me you didn't design the helipad for this one:

Besides being ugly as hell, it is not technically interesting at all... -_-  We designed this one, for example: http://www.naviearma...o-165152-4.html

 

Doing this job one gets in contact with an alternative world, on the edge of fantasy... For example, right now I am working on a solution for a guy who is having a superyacht designed for him. The problem: he wants to anchor the ship some 500+ m from the shore, pull his supercar out the on-board garage and get to the shore (and to the nearest road) by his own means. All by pressing a couple of buttons.

 

And guess what? He will get what he desires.  ;)



#34 'moondance44

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:23 PM

Another issue is speed in delivery. Sometimes (usually) you want to get your goods to market as quickly as possible.  

It is a matter of contractual obligations, logistics and planning. It is generally important to deliver at minimum cost, respecting the time schedules defined by the contract. In those rare occasions when it's the max speed that matters, one uses the air freight... ;)

Yes, its situational.  Sometimes the customer you want to get 50 million Cabbage Patch dolls to Los Angeles before Christmas shopping season, sometimes he dosnt.  You  cannot always use air freight depending on items and logistics.  And as a cargo ship owner you sometimes want the capability of speed (especially in a strong freight market) to maximize earnings.  You can't if you dont have that capability to begin with.  Double  ;)  ;) back at  you



#35 fastyacht

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

Just so you know, the design (contract) speeds on containerships have been steadily falling, not rising, over the years. And this, even as the ships become longer (which would allow greater speeds at that sweet spot at approx Fn 0.25-0.27). The days of the 28 knot ship are pretty much gone.  Maersk's current heavies are at 19 knots. Compare this to the 22 or 23 knots that the diminutive KWW CV2900 class was designed to do 15 years ago.   http://de.wikipedia..../Warnow_CV_2900

 

It just doesn't pay to move incrementally faster. Look at what happened to Mr. Giles "fastship" vapor. Gone. He did pocket 10s of millions of dollars worth of consulting fees over a good period of years though. Good for him.

 

To that extent, yes, sailing vessels can or will be in the future of trade--but not until fuel is really expensive. 

 

You have a number of problems with commercial sail.  Obviously the technical hurdles are essentially trivial. Our great grandfathers built them.  Greater problem is the economics (reflected in sails maintenance, capital cost and importantly manning) and quite importantly, culture. The latter is remarkably important. It is cultural anathema to expect crews to have to learn how to actually sail--this is why we have seen all sorts of "automatic" sail systems since the 1970s. 

 

Even though fuel is the huge cost (more than the ship over its life) sails, especially auxiliary sails, are far more expensive than one would think. Remember that sailing takes stability, stability takes beam, and beam is expensive in terms both of cost to build as well as cost in terms of resistance.



#36 tls

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:10 PM

the problem i see is to make any way into or beam to the wind, she would need a keel or board some hundreds of feet deep.

anything less and the boat would be pushed beam to and side slip all over the place...

This isn't really true.  Required keel area does not scale linearly with ship size, nor does stability.  

 

A typical containership with a L/B = 10 will have more than adequate lateral resistance for without any keel at all.  The real design trade off is that they need to forego several rows of containers to move the CG down enough to allow sails.  Sail augmentation saves fuel, but increases construction/maintenance/crew costs and decreases cargo capacity.  It is intuitive that at some very high fuel price, this trade off makes sense... but it may have to be unfathomably high.  For the foreseeable future is will be more cost effective to address higher fuel costs by building larger boats that travel at slightly slower speeds.  



#37 'moondance44

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:46 PM

Yes. Deck space and cargo area loss has also killed off many of the sail and turbine generator concepts.

When we get back to ships earning $200,000/day
:) fuel concerns diminish and getting around the Cape and through weather in reasonable time becomes important. Under powered Eco ships will be tested.

Also depends on the type of ship and the commodity being carried.

There are designs for commercial nuclear powered tankers also

Saying speed dosnt matter in General is like your girlfriend telling you size dosnt matter. It does when market conditions change and they always do. It's all a trade off and investment risk analysis.

#38 Gunny

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:56 PM

Reefing that slab in 30kts is sure to be a bitch. 



#39 AAC

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:31 PM

Lift acts perpendicular to a foil, and drag along its chord line. Because the angle of attack of this foil cannot be changed, apparent wind will only be favorable if it is aft of the beam (downwind). The foil will just about always be stalled, so a regular boxy container ship with more aerodynamic drag would actually make better use of a tailwind.

 

I don't see how this concept is supposed to work at all, unless the idea is to make use of leeway and just be blown sideways to its destination.



#40 JarVah

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:39 PM

These guys are quietly working away too.  They have the support of some very credible partners and the DNA is from the Atlantic Clipper that ran a service between the UK and the Leeward Islands 30 years ago.  That venture failed because there was never enough cargo coming back to the UK, but she was stuffed full going south.  30 years on there will be people out there that would chose to send cargo this way when these ships see the water.  Shipyard orders not placed just yet, but don't bet against the wind being successful harnessed again to move cargo.

 

http://www.b9energy....US/Default.aspx

 

B9-Ship-500px.jpg



#41 spin echo

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:31 PM

These guys are quietly working away too.  They have the support of some very credible partners and the DNA is from the Atlantic Clipper that ran a service between the UK and the Leeward Islands 30 years ago.  That venture failed because there was never enough cargo coming back to the UK, but she was stuffed full going south.  30 years on there will be people out there that would chose to send cargo this way when these ships see the water.  Shipyard orders not placed just yet, but don't bet against the wind being successful harnessed again to move cargo.

 

http://www.b9energy....US/Default.aspx

 

B9-Ship-500px.jpg

Love the Maltese Falcon Cargo!  Hope they'll make it to water someday.  They will still need some sort of a keel to support that huge rig.



#42 optimaltrim

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:35 PM

Does it have foils, with the 3 to 4 year timeline it might be ready for the next Americas Cup. It might be the new plan to get sponsors.......  bigger billboard and way to carry all of their stuff!



#43 Speng

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:12 PM

Great idea,  but the vertical center of gravity is very high and the windage is tremendous.

To these uneducated eyes COG and windage doesn't look that different to half the container ships coming into Southampton...

 

Yeah I reckon most of the people posting here haven't seen how high container ships are actually stacked. Just the reduction in aero drag from fairing over the cargo at your typical 20 knot cruising speed would probably save a fair amount of drag.



#44 Bcubed

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:48 PM

I recall seeing something about these on the front page a few years back. It looks like this company is selling them, but don't have much posted about realized savings yet.

http://www.skysails.info/index.php?L=1



#45 fastyacht

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:03 PM

 

Great idea,  but the vertical center of gravity is very high and the windage is tremendous.

To these uneducated eyes COG and windage doesn't look that different to half the container ships coming into Southampton...

 

Yeah I reckon most of the people posting here haven't seen how high container ships are actually stacked. Just the reduction in aero drag from fairing over the cargo at your typical 20 knot cruising speed would probably save a fair amount of drag.

Smooth water, air drag is about 4% of total.  Sea/wind margin of 15%  is a typical design input.  Aero drag isn't much in ships.  Also streamlining usually increases drag--it makes the projected area larger and for side-on wind, that is more drag.



#46 HardOnWind

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:03 PM

How do you reef it? (Apart from the Costa Concordia way!)

 

Let some water ballast in to sink it to the upper deck.



#47 robmo01

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:31 PM

Take a look!  All our problems are solved!

 

http://www.nrk.no/vi...segl-1.11220910

bmzvxwaW3wMFRyHjFOhRNA2BXgHGfDgLtRizIeDg

 

Wow!  Why didn't I think of that!  Wow, it's patented, too!  A patented motorsailer!

 

 

I went to the site, I can't read Norweigan, but I did reconginze two words in this sentence that gave me pause "Segling og fart var utgangspunktet for Terje Lade som har ei fortid som utøvar av speed-segling, ein sport som er ein mellomting mellom å segle og å fly.

 

So is this thing powered by fly farts? 



#48 'moondance44

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:44 PM

I was at the helm as a guest skipper in Norway once and as the breeze built the lovely young lady working the bow yelled back at me 'Skipper! Do you want the folk now?!' I thought she was joking.
I said 'not in front of all these people. maybe later'
Fokk apparently means 'jib'

#49 Marcjsmith

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:23 PM

well on the plus side the Somalian pirates may have a bit of a hard time getting up on those decks...



#50 Ryley

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:58 PM

I was at the helm as a guest skipper in Norway once and as the breeze built the lovely young lady working the bow yelled back at me 'Skipper! Do you want the folk now?!' I thought she was joking.
I said 'not in front of all these people. maybe later'
Fokk apparently means 'jib'

 

 

I was at the helm as a guest skipper in Norway once and as the breeze built the lovely young lady working the bow yelled back at me 'Skipper! Do you want the folk now?!' I thought she was joking.
I said 'not in front of all these people. maybe later'
Fokk apparently means 'jib'

 

 

I was at the helm as a guest skipper in Norway once and as the breeze built the lovely young lady working the bow yelled back at me 'Skipper! Do you want the folk now?!' I thought she was joking.
I said 'not in front of all these people. maybe later'
Fokk apparently means 'jib'

It was funnier the first time I heard it.



#51 BronzeWing

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 01:48 AM

How do you reef it? (Apart from the Costa Concordia way!)

You don't, it can perform in 3 - 33 knots



#52 spin echo

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 01:54 AM

What happens after 33? Not fast enough to outrun weather systems.

#53 evenflow

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:56 AM

Funny I thought US carriers have all been nukes for decades...

 

If this thing is about saving fuel, then how come they depict it breaking away from an oiler??

 

military-preps-for-broader-haiti-relief-



#54 evenflow

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:00 AM

 

Better video.  For some reason I think the fuel savings math isn't factoring in the need for extra foils below to keep it on course and the added drag.  Hope it works out, if not, back to these http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Windjammer ?



#55 Ishmael

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:44 AM

Funny I thought US carriers have all been nukes for decades...

 

If this thing is about saving fuel, then how come they depict it breaking away from an oiler??

 

military-preps-for-broader-haiti-relief-

 

That's not an oiler, that's a rummer.



#56 metallum plumbum

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 06:56 AM

I still do not understand how this is supposed to work. No speedsailer has his wingsail sheeted precisely along the centerline of the boat as this ship has. AAC has a point. And I do not see how the apparent wind depicted in the video changes this situation. When the ship speeds up with its motor, it is just the same as standing still with stronger wind and wind direction closer to the bow. Help ... otherwise they build it and it won't move ;-)



#57 evenflow

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 01:38 PM

http://www.navy-mari...upply-home.page

 

I hadn't heard of "rummer" before... food, drink and oil... sounds a bit like a floating 7-Eleven.  Nice.



#58 trimariner

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:34 PM

Rummer, is what gummers drink, while they sit and try to clearly think, Alas their time has been and gone, and like this thread, Now hopefully dead.!



#59 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:59 PM

Just FYI - carriers need a lot of fuel. Not for themselves, it is for the airplanes and helicopters ;)



#60 tbreithaupt

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 08:04 PM

why dont flettner rotors get used more on cargo ships? (using the magnus Effect)

ener01.jpeg

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2pQga7jxAyc



#61 sidmon

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:21 AM

http://www.navy-mari...upply-home.page

 

I hadn't heard of "rummer" before... food, drink and oil... sounds a bit like a floating 7-Eleven.  Nice.

 

 Note the hoses.

 

Its a Kaiser class oiler in the photo shopped pic. They have been criticized since they were built for being too small to be multi-purpose (or to even have enough fuel capacity)...at least to an effective extent like the bigger AOE's and AOR's

 

But anyway...

 

To stay on thread (kinda) I still don't know why they used a picture of what was apparently a carrier breaking away to photoshop as it gives the impression this sail thingy was alongside.

 

And the only reason to do that is to take on fuel . (Stores are generally delivered by helo for the most part)

 

Poor choice. Close up from a carrier alongside a Kaiser:

 

US_Navy_120213-N-DH811-105_The_Military_



#62 sidmon

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:03 AM

http://www.navy-mari...upply-home.page

 

I hadn't heard of "rummer" before... food, drink and oil... sounds a bit like a floating 7-Eleven.  Nice.

 

 Note the hoses.

 


 

And the only reason to do that is to take on fuel . (Stores are generally delivered by helo for the most part)

 

Stores delivery to a carrier...

 

 

To be fair though,closer inspection of the pic above does show that the refueling appears to have been completed (hoses forward not charged and the hoses amidships being retrieved, and nobody around to speak of). While the "STREAM"  gear(post with number 4 on it with the forklift in front) is still tensioned and there are "break stores" on pallets forward between the refueling kingposts. So she is transferring alongside.

 

That said, the Kaisers have only a limited dry store delivery capability, compared to the Canadian AORs like the Preserver.

 

Not that any of that matters...

 

It was still a crappy picture to photoshop if they wanted to tout the fuel savings of this "Vindship".







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