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Cross a J24 with a J22


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#1 Bull City

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 09:18 PM

In the thread about improving the J24 class, there was some discussion about the less than comfortable cockpit and deck layout and the conversion of some old J24s to the IC24 class.

 

I have a J22 and I wondered how well a J24 would work with a J22-style cockpit and deck house. Could it be a nice daysailor/weekender for an old fart and fartess?



#2 crash

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 03:21 AM

I'd think so...certainly you could do a version of a J-29 deck, as the 29 is in many ways a blown up 24.  (Ok, the 30 is a blown up 24 and the 29 cut down from that, but you get the idea).  22 and 27 are narrower boats, so you'd have to take that into account.



#3 DRDNA

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 05:31 PM

If you put a house on a J24, you better raise the boom quite a bit to ever get under it(the boom).



#4 Gouvernail

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 07:35 PM

The deckhouse on the J-22 is my pet peeve.

If that section were sliced off and reinstalled upside down ..... Sorta...... The sailors would be oodles more comfortable.

Nobody uses the stupid cabin. The boat would be an even better day sailor without it and tacking would be nicer and sitting would be nicer and the boom vang would have some room to be built sensibly and .... It would be soooooo much better!!!
I love the J-22 anyway and have raced them for thirty years but that cabin top just pisses me off

#5 Bull City

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 08:39 PM

If you put a house on a J24, you better raise the boom quite a bit to ever get under it(the boom).

Here's a comparison of line drawings. It could work.

J22 J24

 

 

 


Click on the image and it will get bigger.



#6 USA190520

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 10:48 PM

That's what she said...

#7 Great Red Shark

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 12:35 AM

Sure, but WHY ?

#8 Bull City

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:21 PM

Sure, but WHY ?

Why "cross" the two boats or why click on it?



#9 Remodel

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:38 PM

The deckhouse on the J-22 is my pet peeve.

If that section were sliced off and reinstalled upside down ..... Sorta...... The sailors would be oodles more comfortable.

Nobody uses the stupid cabin. The boat would be an even better day sailor without it and tacking would be nicer and sitting would be nicer and the boom vang would have some room to be built sensibly and .... It would be soooooo much better!!!
I love the J-22 anyway and have raced them for thirty years but that cabin top just pisses me off

I think you just described lighter weight Sonar...



#10 frostbit

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:14 PM

Don't they have these already somewhere in the Caribbean?
http://www.racinginp...is-an-ic24.html

IC24

#11 frostbit

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:16 PM

http://www.racinginp...is-an-ic24.html

IC 24

#12 frostbit

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:16 PM

http://www.racinginp...is-an-ic24.html

IC 24

#13 Bull City

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:44 PM

The IC24 is a J24 that has been converted into a daysailer, by extending the cockpit almost to the mast. It's not really what I have in mind. There is no deck house. It looks like you sit on the side deck. The cockpit volume looks pretty large. There is no bridge deck. I don't know what overnight accommodations it has, probably minimal if any.



#14 Great Red Shark

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:46 PM

Sure, but WHY ?

Why "cross" the two boats or why click on it?
Why piss time, money and effort into changing a boat this isn't that bad to begin with.

You can get a stock J/24 pretty cheap these days, they make a passable daysailer and can be camped out upon for a weekend without TOO much pain - sure, it's not what I'd choose, but you could do worse.

versus

cutting the deck off and making one with a small cabin house on it ? Really - have you ever MADE a deck ? Lotsa work and the end product won't sail any better, or be much easier to crew on, or be much more comfortable, but it will have (leaking) windows ! - and no resale value.

Congratulations.

How about this - if you want a cruiser, find a goddam cruiser !

#15 Bull City

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:12 PM

Red,

 

How about this - you make some good points.

 

I'm not looking for a cruiser, but have observed that lots of folks feel the J24 is uncomfortable for the crew. Some older J24s are being converted to the IC24, a pure day sailer. There have been other "plastic classics" converted from cruisers to weekenders, or from one-designs, like a Shields 30, to weekenders. So I offered another idea, i.e. converting J24 to a more comfortable weekenders.

 

You can make good points without being pissy about it.



#16 bottlerocket

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:02 PM

The J/24 is uncomfortable for the crew because 3 of the crew sit outside the cockpit.    The skipper and trimmer sit in the cockpit.   The rest don't.    This is exactly the same on the J/22 except on the J/22, there is only one crew outside of the cockpit and he tacks himself across around the front of the mast and not under the boom which means the cabin is irrelevant except it makes a good place for the bowman to sit downwind and upwind in lighter air.

 

To me the best way to make the J/24 more comfortable is drop one of the crew and sail with a blade instead of a genoa like the J/22 does.    The trimming becomes easy enough that the 4th crew can follow the trimmer across the cockpit and then the most forward crew can cross in front of the mast like they always do.    That way no one crawls under the boom.

 

It is a lot easier than changing the cabin layout of the J/24.



#17 Bull City

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:37 AM

Bottlerocket describes the problems from a OD racing perspective.

 

It seems to me the J24 hull has the potential to be a very good performance oriented weekender/overnighter and a PHRF racer, except that the deck layout is lousy and the accommodations could be improved, especially if designed for two.

 

That's my idea.



#18 Steam Flyer

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:15 AM

Bottlerocket describes the problems from a OD racing perspective.

 

It seems to me the J24 hull has the potential to be a very good performance oriented weekender/overnighter and a PHRF racer, except that the deck layout is lousy and the accommodations could be improved, especially if designed for two.

 

That's my idea.

 

And you probably have to do a re-core job on the deck anyway, so you might as well build a new one you really like

 

:rolleyes:

 

FB- Doug



#19 Great Red Shark

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 09:12 PM

Once you get used to sailing with the awful telescoping hatch, sailing with the low-hood modification is so much better you don't mind the screwy constant-radius deck.

As for making it 'comfy' - I don't really see much that the average hobbyist would do that would really improve it much - make a flush deck and put a house/trunk-cabin on ? That is a LOT of work - I think you would be time and serious money ahead to just get a decent cruiser to begin with.

Call it pissy if you want to, I'm just stating what repeat experience has taught me - that you DO NOT want to get IN to a boat you need to make a major change to. If it's the LAST boat in the world ? perhaps - but short of that all you are doing it wasting money and ruining the Js resale.

Personally I think the IC mod is a good one - making the cockpit bigger and losing the genoa is a great second life for the older J/24s that aren't competitive in 'serious' OD racing anymore. If you wanted to low-buck cruise one, I just don't think there is much creature comfort to be gained, so you want to either Harden Up, or Keep Shopping.

#20 2high2tight

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 10:24 PM

I was going to say, you just described a sonar. or a short soling.



#21 Great Red Shark

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 01:05 AM

I don't know about THAT ! The J-24 is robust enough to be a far better dual-use boat than the Sonar or a Soling ever would be, for a number of reasons - I just don't see a cost-effective deck mod to add interior volume to the point it'd be noticeably better than stock.

Would you raise the boom a foot to put a cabin on it ? - Ick.

and while the J sails admirably well compared to many of its peers, its not so outstanding that you couldn't get to most of the same parts of the performance envelope with a modest cruiser like an Olson 25 or a Hawkfarm or small Ericson or similar - and be money and time ahead.

#22 Wayfarer1071

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 02:11 PM

My wife and I daysail, and camp cruise our old j-24. I still do some beer can racing with it as well. To me, I don't know why everyone wants to change the boat. Leave it alone. Bang for your buck, you can hardly do better. As for comfort as a daysailor or camp cruiser, I can tell you it is terrific. Is it the most comfortable ever designed? Hell no. However, with addition of a couple of  staduim seats while at anchor, and only running the blade when sailing with two or three crew, the boat works really well. We routinely use ours for weekending. We are not exactly young either, and for the two of us we are quite comfortable. I would also say, that when rafted up with Catalina 22 or Tanzer 22 or 26, we find we have more room (due to the beam of the J-24) and are just as comfortable. Moreover, I always get the anchorage first - even with just the blade - and my wife finds the smaller foresail just too easy to snap over and cleat using the Lopez blocks. I'll admit, I wussed out and pruchased a Doyle Boston asym cruising kite with a snuffer as my crew just weren't that "enthused" about flying the chute. My logic is I'd rather fly the less efficient asym more in a season than not getting the kite up at all. With the two of us, the boat flies with the asym.

 

My opinion the old J-24 is a good all purpose design. Yes, there are better, newer, faster. There always will be. However, and old J can have a wonderful second life as a cost effective racer cruiser which is what I believe was the original design brief. It works well for us.



#23 @last

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:10 AM

+1, found the boat to be a great platform for a week cruise in the Florida Keys

My wife and I daysail, and camp cruise our old j-24. I still do some beer can racing with it as well. To me, I don't know why everyone wants to change the boat. Leave it alone. Bang for your buck, you can hardly do better. As for comfort as a daysailor or camp cruiser, I can tell you it is terrific. Is it the most comfortable ever designed? Hell no. However, with addition of a couple of  staduim seats while at anchor, and only running the blade when sailing with two or three crew, the boat works really well. We routinely use ours for weekending. We are not exactly young either, and for the two of us we are quite comfortable. I would also say, that when rafted up with Catalina 22 or Tanzer 22 or 26, we find we have more room (due to the beam of the J-24) and are just as comfortable. Moreover, I always get the anchorage first - even with just the blade - and my wife finds the smaller foresail just too easy to snap over and cleat using the Lopez blocks. I'll admit, I wussed out and pruchased a Doyle Boston asym cruising kite with a snuffer as my crew just weren't that "enthused" about flying the chute. My logic is I'd rather fly the less efficient asym more in a season than not getting the kite up at all. With the two of us, the boat flies with the asym.

 

My opinion the old J-24 is a good all purpose design. Yes, there are better, newer, faster. There always will be. However, and old J can have a wonderful second life as a cost effective racer cruiser which is what I believe was the original design brief. It works well for us.



#24 2high2tight

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:22 AM

I don't know about THAT ! The J-24 is robust enough to be a far better dual-use boat than the Sonar or a Soling ever would be, for a number of reasons - I just don't see a cost-effective deck mod to add interior volume to the point it'd be noticeably better than stock.

Would you raise the boom a foot to put a cabin on it ? - Ick.

and while the J sails admirably well compared to many of its peers, its not so outstanding that you couldn't get to most of the same parts of the performance envelope with a modest cruiser like an Olson 25 or a Hawkfarm or small Ericson or similar - and be money and time ahead.

well, the question was "what if you stuck a more performance oriented cockpit" on a J24? the answer is sonar. Notin love with the idea. The j24 is an icon -- ankle scars and broken ribs included.



#25 Great Red Shark

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:40 AM

Moreover, I always get the anchorage first - even with just the blade - ..... It works well for us.

Sure, when you have a 300 pound Newfie hiking the boat down flat !

Buncha Timmy-munchin' cheaters, all of you. I imagine the boat's in the yard and the Chief is in the shop by now ?

Fill yer boots.
your pal,
DW

#26 bloodshot

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:43 AM

I always wondered if it would work to put in Pearson Flyer style ports in the hull, but I imagine that would be a wee bit dangerous.



#27 Gouvernail

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:48 AM

We used to camp out on our J at regattas.
Five guys or four guys and a girl . Some of the guys brought girlfriends and there were nights with eight of us.

We had a tent that amounted to a giant deck cover with a hole that slid up the mast using a job halyard.

The v berth is ok for two young folks who like each other physically .
Each side berth is a fine bed for a big guy

The cockpit floor works as a single bed.

With a simple support system a cot fits nicely crosswise on the cabin top.

A hammock can easily be hung from a spinnaker eye to a tripod anchored down to the bow chain plate


A two chunk plywood frame set over the cockpit and a blow up mattress turns the cockpit into a double bed


After that it gets crowded

We silent all our money on gas, entry fees, and sails and managed to earn bow #5 of 138 entries.

#28 bottlerocket

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:55 AM

What's that old joke?   A sailboat has room for two lovers, four friends, or ten drunks.       



#29 Bull City

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:55 AM

It seems the J24 has a lot going for it: good sailing characteristics, decent over night accommodations, but a decidedly shitty cockpit and deck layout (I noticed that it has a pretty short traveler). The J22, IMHO, has a nice deck layout. The additional interior volume of the J24 provide the potential for a nicer weekender.

 

If you can get a "seasoned" J24 for about $5,000, what would it cost to design and build a better deck lay out (better cockpit and deck house), like a J22's? $10,000, I have no idea? Then compare the cost to a Harbor 25.



#30 Scottydog1

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:34 PM

You would need to redo the cockpit and deck step the mast. Heck put a sprit and an Asail on it while you're there.

 

You would still have a 30-40 year old j24, might be worth 5-10k. Lipstick on a pig imo. Just buy a j/80.



#31 crash

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 02:10 AM

If you were going to pay someone to do it, I'm not sure the cost would justify it.  If you and a couple of friends are going to try it yourselves, why not?  There are hundreds of J-24's that though you could make them competitive at a national level, it would cost so much you might as well buy a newer, already prepped one...So why not find an old one with a wet deck somewhere and give it a shot?  You have to be ready to lose the money you put into it, but I think there's some merit to the idea too.  But as Gouv says, you have to be doing this because you genuinely enjoy mucking about working on the boat. 



#32 Bull City

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 02:05 PM

If you were going to pay someone to do it, I'm not sure the cost would justify it.  If you and a couple of friends are going to try it yourselves, why not?  There are hundreds of J-24's that though you could make them competitive at a national level, it would cost so much you might as well buy a newer, already prepped one...So why not find an old one with a wet deck somewhere and give it a shot?  You have to be ready to lose the money you put into it, but I think there's some merit to the idea too.  But as Gouv says, you have to be doing this because you genuinely enjoy mucking about working on the boat. 

Unfortunately, I don't have the skills, so a DIY would be doomed.



#33 cajunbabe

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 10:51 PM

Rush Creek YC in Heath TX has about a dozen IC24's as club boats.   Think they charge $60 or so a month for use for members w/o their own boats.   Last I heard, one of their members had the US rights for the IC24 design conversion (apparently its patented).

 

From my own experience, MUCH more crew friendly.   One design rule limits the head sail to blade.



#34 learningj24

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:14 PM

Rush Creek YC in Heath TX has about a dozen IC24's as club boats.   Think they charge $60 or so a month for use for members w/o their own boats.   Last I heard, one of their members had the US rights for the IC24 design conversion (apparently its patented).

 

From my own experience, MUCH more crew friendly.   One design rule limits the head sail to blade.

A couple of people (one of my crew and an IC owner) have mentioned that they feel much more secure on a J when it's blowing than on an IC.  Appearantly, crossing that big open cockpit when it's honkin' doesn't feel as safe in a blow.  Didn't the IC's cancel a race during their Nat's when the breeze got over 25?






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