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Plastic Classic to Rock Solid Cruiser - your thoughts


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#1 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:11 PM

Hello all,

 

I have a 61 Pearson Triton.  I lived on her for 3 months this summer after getting her in June.  Had a blast.  I'm working towards making her a more capable blue water single or double handed cruiser.  A fair amount of good work has been done in the past but there's a lot left to do.  Just wondering if you would send your ideas my way about changes you'd make.  I'm open to relatively radical mods (hard dodger for instance) if they would solve problems.

 

Some details about the boat as she stands

1) Inboard has been removed, aperture fared in.  Boat sails amazingly well and does pretty well in light winds.  I have an outboard that works well in calms but not in chop.  Not going to make a well because I want the storage and also it will interfere with the self steering.  I'm going to refit the outboard mount that I have (fixed) this year with a moveable one because the outboard never gets out of the water currently and I'd like to get it lower).  Currently the space where the inboard was is mostly not used.  I'm planning on building a plywood/epoxy water tank in that area (although still a little unclear as to whether epoxy is safe for water).

2) Rig: there is some ? as to the soundness of the mast.  Long story.  Rigger is examining it in the next couple weeks.  Regardless, she will get all new standing rigging this year.  Currently all halyards and reefing lines are led back to the cockpit.  I've found this less helpful than I thought, as I still need to go forward to the mast for reefing to get to the tack hook.  And the roller jib halyard being back in the cockpit is a major pain.  So I'm going to bring the reefing lines to the boom and the halyards to the mast and eliminate a lot of complexity.  I'm pondering leading the jib halyard forward to make changing the jib on the furler a more doable proposition.

 

I'm thinking about going to a double boom vang/preventer thing with two sides led to the toe rails (see dinghy piece below).  Need a beefier mainsheet traveller I think too.

 

3) Anchoring.  Currently using a 35 pound mantus as my main anchor with a 35 pound bruce/claw as my second.  These are both "storm" anchors for the boat and have held really well in some crappy circumstances.  75' of chain on the Mantus and 30 feet of chain on the bruce.  I had no windlass last year, so I'm going to add a Lofrans Royal manual windlass this summer.  My power is minimal so I don't think I can use an electric windlass.

 

4) Dinghy. I had a small very tender pram this year which was very mediocre.  I'm going to be building a 7' Catspaw from B&B designs this winter, I'm pretty sure this will be much better.  I'm planning on fitting it out with a good bit more flotation too so that it will function as a lifeboat somewhat.  My problem here is that there isn't all that much space between the mast and the companionway.  I'd also like to fit a dodger.  The current dinghy just misses the vang.  I'd like to get preventers anyway.  So...that's why I'm thinking of the dual vang/preventer set up.  I'm still trying to figure out how to get the dinghy and the dodger to work together.  The current dinghy overhangs the hatch by about a foot.I could make the dinghy have a removable transom to give me some more room.  I thought about a nesting dinghy but am serious about wanting the lifeboat capability and putting together a 2 part dinghy in a bad situation seems like a bad idea.  I could shorten the hatch to meet the dodger.  I've also been wondering about eliminating the hatch but making a permanent sloping roof over the companionway (a bit like a square version of a Contessa hatch)

 

5) Self steering: I'm heavily leaning towards a Cape Horn windvane.  Looks to be really excellent at steering, looks nice, price is good, not too much stuff on the stern and will integrate with a tiller pilot and minimize electricity use.  

 

6) Flotation: I want to make watertight compartments.  In particular under the V birth I'd like to make two seperate compartments...feels like this is the most sensitive area for a collision.  Actually 3, because I'd like to put a forwards bulkhead to block in the anchor locker.  Then another one under the v-birth about 3 feet back, and then another one at the end of the v-birth.  I'm also planning on a removable baffle for the head and a permanent baffle in the hanging locker that goes above the waterline.  

 

7) Sails: The main has 3 reef points, currently it has jiffy reefing on the first two, nothing on the third.  I'd like to put an adjustable reef track on the boom (currently just has two fixed pullies) so I can fit either 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 reefs depending on conditions.  I'm hoping the 3rd reef will take the place of a trysail, which I don't have.  I have an old storm jib that I'm thinking about fitting a roller furling wire to that I could use in place of the working jib if it looked like things were getting ugly.  I was pondering switching to a masthead rig but I'm not sure that it has much added value.

 

8) Galley: Currently have a little two burner gimballed propane stove.  I find it to be more trouble than it's worth.  I'd like to go with a 2 burner fixed stove and then a swinging gimballed portable 1 burner stove for cooking while under way.  Not sure which 2 burner to go with but something that has a lot of fiddles to lock stuff down.

 

I'll leave it at that.  I've thought about this stuff a lot but it seems like the crowd here is pretty knowledgable...so if you have any thoughts, please let me know.



#2 Bob Perry

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:26 PM

Sully:

We have rules here on Cursing Anarchy. Before we respond with ideas you must first post photos of tits, preferably your girlfriend's. It's a tradition here.



#3 Ajax

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:35 PM

I'm not that picky. Any decent female tits will do.

 

You seem to be on the right track to make sure the boat is safe, except for the outboard engine. Not sure I'm a fan of that.  I know Tritons have a record of off shore sailing, but it seems like a cramped, wet, uncomfortable boat. I hope you'll be solo, so that you can hog all the available space for yourself.

 

Re: Galley.

Get yourself a fixed, 2-burner Origo non-pressurized alcohol stove.



#4 Bob Perry

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:48 PM

You can get a gimballed Origo with an oven. I had one and it was a good stove. Very simple and easy to use.



#5 Tom Ray

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:07 PM

Hello all,

 

I have a 61 Pearson Triton.  I lived on her for 3 months this summer after getting her in June.  Had a blast.  I'm working towards making her a more capable blue water single or double handed cruiser.  ..

 

Why? There's nothing out there but birds, sea, and fish.

 

 

...And a fire.



#6 WarBird

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:12 PM

Hello all,

 

I have a 61 Pearson Triton.  I lived on her for 3 months this summer after getting her in June.  Had a blast.  I'm working towards making her a more capable blue water single or double handed cruiser.  ..

 

Why? There's nothing out there but birds, sea, and fish.

 

 

...And a fire.

..until you sail out of the environment....



#7 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:13 PM

I always liked smart girls...

 

4eab06b46cfe3.jpg



#8 Tom Ray

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:17 PM

Link different.



#9 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:22 PM

re: outboard.  When I was boat hunting I was pretty influenced by reading the Pardeys and also about James Baldwin's Triton Atom.  So I was thinking I was going to pull the A4 out of whatever I bought anyway.  So when this boat came up I was into it, and they did a nice job of faring things in.  Also the rudder is modded with a higher gudgeon that protects the rudder from grounding.  And it sails amazingly well.  I don't have a normal Triton to compare it to, but it's extremely maneuverable, and keeps moving in any kind of breeze.

 

In retrospect...I might have an inboard if I had a different boat.  But the outboard is kind of a nice compromise between some sort of yuloh type thing and an inboard.  Definitely has come in handy.  But I've learned to sail almost always without it and I think I'm better for it.  Needed it for the Cape Cod Canal anyway.  

 

I'm inclined to stick with propane, it's worked well so far.  I could never get the flame low enough on this stove to cook rice.  The propane line is not up to snuff, I'm not sure if there is supposed to be some sort of a regulator in the line, that's something that absolutely needs to get worked out for next year.  

 

I was thinking about an oven but I'm not sure that I'd use it enough to make it worthwhile.  I think I'm going with one of these Omnia oven things:

http://theboatgalley...ove-top-baking/

 

Re: the Triton, it's definitely tight but it's pretty comfy.  Mostly, I own it outright and it was cheap.  It's the boat I got.  I think I can make it a lot nicer.  Interior wise, there are a lot of changes I'd like to make, but currently budget and time wise, my priority is to take care of all the safety stuff this year and make the boat really functional.  I did have someone along with me for a while this summer and it kind of worked, but she was pretty easy to get along with.  

 

Can't really afford anything else right now.  Of course it kind of blows to lay money into something that ultimately is going to be hard to resell, but I had the best time of my life, so I can't complain.



#10 sailman

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:28 PM

Everything you need to know about refitting a Triton can be found here:  http://triton381.com/



#11 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:31 PM

Thanks.  I've seen that at length.  Not exactly what I'm trying for though.  

 

Him:

Big budget, lots of teak, complicated.  

 

Me:

Cheapest effective, painted plywood, dead simple.

 

The boat looks amazing, and would be amazing to live on.  I think that it could be further maximized for bluewater cruising though.

 

Definitely a lot of good stuff there, though.  Thanks for the reminder.  



#12 Steam Flyer

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:41 PM

re: outboard.  When I was boat hunting I was pretty influenced by reading the Pardeys ...

 

 

What the Pardeys don't tell you is that they are pretty much helpless in light air, and shamelessly beg for tows. Larry figures any time they need to use an engine, they can always use somebody else's. Since they're famous this strategy works for them.

 

An outboard on the transom is going to be all but useless most of the time IMHO and also require stowing gasoline, and put weight further aft, etc etc.

 

One thing you haven't mentioned is your own sailing experience. Since you mentioned reading first, it's easy to assume you've done more of that than actual sailing but I don't want to presume. The more experience you can get, the better you'll be in a position to have sound judgement of your own and the less likely you are to make a dysfunctional mess out of the boat.

 

Reefing lines led aft is a classic example.

 

Also, for cooking on board, get a pressure cooker. It can't spill and you can bake in it, once you learn how.

 

FB- Doug



#13 bmiller

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:42 PM

I can't offer any technical advice, but really like your ambition and attitude. Look forward to following the project if you keep posting.



#14 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:48 PM

Doug,

 

More reading than sailing but I did do enough this summer to feel ok about doing more.  I never set an anchor before July of this year but then spent a month and a half on anchor.  Sailed from Narragansett Bay to Salem, MA by way of Cuttyhunk and Martha's Vineyard mostly singlehanded.  Nothing too amazing but every day was a learning experience.  Definitely figured out what worked on the boat and what didn't.  Lots of things about the boat that I thought were going to be amazing kinda sucked.  The reefing thing was not great.  Dinghy tried to kill me.  Pulling up chain in a blow was no fun, particularly in Vineyard Haven with a ton of pretty boats directly downwind from me.  

 

The outboard thing is what it is.  Plenty of people have gotten by on a lot less.  I can do 4.7 knots or so in a medium chop with no problem.  It was dysfunctional for a couple of weeks and I did pretty well without it.  

 

I have a 100w solar panel currently which has worked pretty well.  I need to mount it on the transom so it doesn't get shaded.  More would be better but there is limited room.



#15 Py26129

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:48 PM

Sully

 

1. Fix the titty link please!!

 

 

 2.  In anticipation of a fixed link:   You can have a reefing setup that uses only a single line, led back to the cockpit.  Operation is simple,  ease the mail halyard, snug down the reefing line, tighten the halyard, done.  No need to lave the cockpit. 

 

The reefing line is dead ended at the eft end of the boom, runs up through the reefing cringle, down to a block near the end of the boom, forward to another block at the goosneck, up through the reefing cringle, down to a block at the base of the mast and back to the cockpit.



#16 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:51 PM

This one work?

 

maggie-gyllenhaal-cleavage.jpg



#17 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:53 PM

Sully

 

1. Fix the titty link please!!

 

 

 2.  In anticipation of a fixed link:   You can have a reefing setup that uses only a single line, led back to the cockpit.  Operation is simple,  ease the mail halyard, snug down the reefing line, tighten the halyard, done.  No need to lave the cockpit. 

 

The reefing line is dead ended at the eft end of the boom, runs up through the reefing cringle, down to a block near the end of the boom, forward to another block at the goosneck, up through the reefing cringle, down to a block at the base of the mast and back to the cockpit.

 

Yeah...that seems like a lot of friction.  Was advised it doesn't work that well?  

 

It being a wet boat, seems like a dodger is essential.  But don't know how to integrate the dodger and all the reefing lines. My inclination is to bring everything back to the mast and be done with it.



I'm thinking of this setup for the vang/preventer

 

http://www.goodoldbo...vangprevent.php

 

Only concern I have is fouling up the side decks, tripping and going overboard...



#18 monsoon

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:55 PM

I guess it a done deal, but I really question the choice of an outboard for cruising. It's gonna be useless in waves of any size. And as already mentioned, you'll have to find a way to store significant amount of gasoline, or be happy drifting in calms.



#19 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:02 PM

It's a done deal.  The boat is the boat.  It's worked well for me for the most part.  I'm cool with it, it has its advantages.  

 

If I sold the boat, I'd a) have a hard time selling it and B) would no be able to afford anything bigger/better that didn't need a shit ton of work.  The boat sails extremely well single handed.  If I can find a way to raise some funds in 5 years or so I'll think about something in the $30k range, but currently that's not going to happen.  

 

One other issue...running downwind.  I don't have a spinnaker and have never really sailed with one.  I was pondering a drifter of some sort but was advised that I might do nearly as well with wing and wing with a pole and/or a large genoaish thing set flying.  Thoughts?



#20 Bob Perry

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:20 PM

and the part the front fell off.

 

Nice looking lady Sully.



#21 SemiSalt

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:22 PM

You might check out this forum for the "Englishman buys boat, sails down east coast" thread. The boat in question is a Bristol 27 which is by the same designer as the Triton and is very similar. 



#22 SemiSalt

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:29 PM

On running downwind: Sometimes I think no boat goes downwind well. Sometimes I'm wondering why my boat is stuck in molasses when the knotmeter and GPS agree I'm doing 5 knots.

 

Anyway, going DDW, all boats go the same speed. (not really, but almost) because as you speed up, the apparent wind falls. It only gets exciting when you have too much sail up (spinnaker) or tack downwind (assym).  Lots of people like a cruising spinnaker and they can be rigged to handle short-handed. You need an autopilot of some kind to set up or strike the pole for wing and wing when singlehanding. 



#23 Steam Flyer

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:32 PM

This one work?

 

maggie-gyllenhaal-cleavage.jpg

 

 

Good, a little too skinny and too much make-up for my taste, but I vote +

 

About doing more sailing- have you considered getting a spot as crew in races? That way you can get more experience under a wider variety of conditions, plus it's fun. Spinnakers? Depends on how much space you want to give to your sail inventory. Tremendous improvement in sailing downwind, but the boat will go downwind anyway.

 

FB- Doug



#24 Ishmael

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:44 PM

Sully

 

1. Fix the titty link please!!

 

 

 2.  In anticipation of a fixed link:   You can have a reefing setup that uses only a single line, led back to the cockpit.  Operation is simple,  ease the mail halyard, snug down the reefing line, tighten the halyard, done.  No need to lave the cockpit. 

 

The reefing line is dead ended at the eft end of the boom, runs up through the reefing cringle, down to a block near the end of the boom, forward to another block at the goosneck, up through the reefing cringle, down to a block at the base of the mast and back to the cockpit.

 

Yeah...that seems like a lot of friction.  Was advised it doesn't work that well?  

 

It being a wet boat, seems like a dodger is essential.  But don't know how to integrate the dodger and all the reefing lines. My inclination is to bring everything back to the mast and be done with it.



I'm thinking of this setup for the vang/preventer

 

http://www.goodoldbo...vangprevent.php

 

Only concern I have is fouling up the side decks, tripping and going overboard...

 

That preventer setup makes going forward a huge pain. A friend has his set up that way on a sistership and there is a ton of crap all over the side decks. I think a vang fixed at the mast base is a better bet, since you can lead it back and not have to adjust it at its clipon point (or have permanent spaghetti coming back to the cockpit); one light preventer to the rail will be much less fuss and you can build a fuse into it (like a light aluminum caribiner) so it blows if you dig the boom too hard into a wave.



#25 Figment

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:45 PM

Regarding the whole "outfitting for bluewater cruising" thing;   Look around at other tritons that are outfitted to the extend you think you want/need.   Look closely at how they're sitting in the water.

Now look at your boat.

Look at the other boat again.

Now back at your boat.

 

Trim matters.

All of these delightful sailing properties you've discovered are likely to disappear, or at least be diminished, as you load more and more gear aboard.   

It's a very small 28' boat.   Less is more.

 

Also, specifically regarding your item 6) floatation....   Despite having lived aboard, this suggests to me that you haven't actually done much work on the boat.    If that hull hits something in the middle of the big blue hard enough to actually hole the hull, conditions are such that a couple of watertight compartments aren't going to do anything for you.    Spend your energies elsewhere.



#26 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:47 PM

Doug,

 

I'm not too concerned with my abilities, to be honest.  I've raced dinghies a fair amount and that experience has been hugely helpful.  I'd love to win but mostly not dumping in heavier air seems like an accomplishment.  It'd definitely taught me a lot about handling a heavier boat.  I (definitely luckily) didn't get into too much trouble this summer despite some periods of not having an engine.  Mostly I'm concerned about making the boat easy to control and sail and figuring out the self steering (that was a huge issue for the summer and since I was mostly at the helm the whole time it was hugely fatiguing).  Also with the dodger just want to make sure that I can stay dry.

 

I would have been a lot happier downwind with a whisker pole.  Mostly just frustrated with the jib flogging around.  I ended up sailing under main alone a lot, which worked pretty well.  I think some sort of spinnaker would be nice though.

 

 

Thanks all for your thoughts.

 

Paul



#27 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:50 PM

don't want to sound like I'm foolhardy.  I'm pretty cautious and have been pretty careful to put myself in situations that are challenging but not totally suicidal.  Anyway, my concern right now is getting the boat up to snuff.  



#28 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:53 PM

Regarding the whole "outfitting for bluewater cruising" thing;   Look around at other tritons that are outfitted to the extend you think you want/need.   Look closely at how they're sitting in the water.

Now look at your boat.

Look at the other boat again.

Now back at your boat.

 

Trim matters.

All of these delightful sailing properties you've discovered are likely to disappear, or at least be diminished, as you load more and more gear aboard.   

It's a very small 28' boat.   Less is more.

 

Also, specifically regarding your item 6) floatation....   Despite having lived aboard, this suggests to me that you haven't actually done much work on the boat.    If that hull hits something in the middle of the big blue hard enough to actually hole the hull, conditions are such that a couple of watertight compartments aren't going to do anything for you.    Spend your energies elsewhere.

 

I'm not looking to add much weight...I'm also minus an engine.  Windlass seems pretty necessary after some pretty miserable experiences this summer.  Self-steering, some more electronics.  That's about it.  I need more storage compartments for food and water.  Otherwise not looking to load things down much.

 

Seems like watertight compartments would be a pretty good move to me, at least in the bow.  Not talking about flotation as in foam, but areas that were sealed from the rest of the hull.  



#29 Ajax

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:45 PM

"Areas sealed from the rest of the hull" is basically sacrificing storage, something you're trying to get more of. It's a tiny boat, not a Aegis guided-missle cruiser.  Drive smart and keep an alert watch, or buy an Etapp. ;)

 

Ok, I get that the boat "is what it is". I've been/am in that situation. Get the most long-shafted outboard you can buy, and build a bracket that keeps it low in the water, but can be adjusted to get it out of the water when not in use.

 

Downwind sailing:

You need to be pretty handy to single-hand a symmetric spinnaker. (I can provide video of me jumping around like a frog on a hot rock if you don't believe me).

An assymetric spinnaker is a better option for a solo sailor.

A whisker pole and a big genoa is probably the simplest, least expensive solution. It is effective, but a spinnaker is more effective.

 

You'll have to decide where you draw the line on "effective enough".

 

You mention "cheapest effective" solutions. I totally get that, but you also mention "painted plywood".

On a boat that you intend to take offshore, I advise using a high quality plywood for whatever you're talking about, and laminating it with epoxy (and maybe even glass cloth), and THEN painting it.

 

Structural integrity is important. 



#30 Bulbhunter

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:57 PM

The major downer on the OB has been pointed out - packing enough fuel for extended trips really is not that fun. One thing I really like about the inboard diesel is knowing I usually have plenty of range with the small onboard fuel tank and it keeps the house batteries happy even if your electrics are very basic you still want juice.

 

Given the inboard really is not in the budget - probably the biggest thing is to always know that your motoring options are really limited to must have moments and any rough water conditions should be considered a no motor option given the OB in rough water will be nearly useless. As long as you keep that high on the what can I do and when regarding moving the boat options then your fine. People get into trouble when they force a move they know is pushing the limits of their gear or physical capability - when they stick to the rules they set based on their boats ability or their own they can go to some far off places without too many issues.

 

Fire would be the only really really big worry with gasoline and propane on board both of which are things most sailors do not like sailing with on extended trips. Fire is a pretty serious concern for most cruisers so be sure you put plenty of thought into your fire risks and your options in handling a fire if one were to happen.



#31 SemiSalt

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:08 PM

Fire would be the only really really big worry with gasoline and propane 

 

Including those really rapid fires usually called explosions...



#32 Tom Ray

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:13 PM

... Windlass seems pretty necessary after some pretty miserable experiences this summer. ...

 


A lunch hook makes more sense to me. You have two oversized anchors with lots of extra chain. Those are great when you want to stop and stopping is difficult. It's usually not difficult. On the rare occasions it is, haul up your big anchors by hand. The rest of the time, use a small anchor.



#33 Ajax

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:21 PM

Bah. There are scads of Atomic-4's still safely operating out there.

So long as he stores his fuel safely, he'll have no worries.

 

Above decks is preferable. If he insists on storing some cans in the space previously occupied by the engine, he could always install a blower to ventilate the space.

Fire would be the only really really big worry with gasoline and propane 

 

Including those really rapid fires usually called explosions...



#34 Figment

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:28 PM

... Windlass seems pretty necessary after some pretty miserable experiences this summer. ...

 


A lunch hook makes more sense to me. You have two oversized anchors with lots of extra chain. Those are great when you want to stop and stopping is difficult. It's usually not difficult. On the rare occasions it is, haul up your big anchors by hand. The rest of the time, use a small anchor.

Yes.   A 12-14lb Danforth with 12' of chain did me just fine.   The Big Hook got wet exactly twice in 8 years.  

I'm not suggesting to ditch the big hook altogether.  You're essentially going engineless, that ground tackle is some comfort.

 

Regarding the self-steering...  just how blue are these bluewater ambitions of yours?  

Consider a tillerpilot.  A (properly trimmed) triton holds its own course pretty well in most conditions, the tillerpilot didn't have to work hard to keep things going in the right direction, very little draw.    And lighter than a windvane.   And not an impossible-conflict with an outboard motor like a windvane. 



#35 Jose Carumba

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:14 PM

If range with the outboard is a concern polypropylene internal fuel tanks are available in a range of sizes.  Find one that gives you the capacity you want and that fits in the former engine compartment.  This way you increase your fuel capacity and place the weight low and reasonably centered.  Plumb a deck fill and a vent line (both grounded) and a supply line to your outboard and you are in business. 



#36 Py26129

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:56 PM

Sully

 

1. Fix the titty link please!!

 

 

 2.  In anticipation of a fixed link:   You can have a reefing setup that uses only a single line, led back to the cockpit.  Operation is simple,  ease the mail halyard, snug down the reefing line, tighten the halyard, done.  No need to lave the cockpit. 

 

The reefing line is dead ended at the eft end of the boom, runs up through the reefing cringle, down to a block near the end of the boom, forward to another block at the goosneck, up through the reefing cringle, down to a block at the base of the mast and back to the cockpit.

 

Yeah...that seems like a lot of friction.  Was advised it doesn't work that well?  

 

It being a wet boat, seems like a dodger is essential.  But don't know how to integrate the dodger and all the reefing lines. My inclination is to bring everything back to the mast and be done with it.

 

I used that setup for years on a Paceship 26.  We were able to pull the reefing line by hand and get it tight.  With the halyard partially released, there is less friction than you might think.



#37 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:56 PM

I have two jerry cans, a two and a five gallon if I remember.  In my longest motoring episode (12 hours straight) I think I went through the 5 gallon, maybe.  I hadn't filled them for several days...I never got close to being empty.  I keep them on deck.  It has not been a problem.  I may end up trying to find a flatter tank to keep on deck that's a little easier to tie down.  Anyway, motor has not been a problem.

 

Tiller pilot would be nice but with solar panels I don't think it would be a great idea.  I'm trying to keep my power needs to a minimum.  I may end up with a little generator at some point.  

 

The Cape Horn wind vane is pretty close to the stern.  I'm pretty sure I can mount the outboard far enough that the rudder and the outboard will be in different planes.

 

I have a 25 pound Northhill anchor I keep on 10' of chain and a 3/8" nylon rode.  It's great for many circumstances.  But I never regretted putting down the Mantus.  I sat on that and the Bruce for 24 hours in Vineyard Haven in a 2' chop with the wind out of the North and the boat hobbyhorsing for hours and never moved an inch.  Since I tend to live on anchor (can't afford moorings) I feel like it's pretty wise to be able to contend with heavy ground tackle.  I may go from 70' to 30' of chain on the Mantus.  Not sure the extra 40' is that different although I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

I did a save on a boat this summer that was "dragging" but more like sailing away.  30' Cape Dory, I dumped my Northhill in my dinghy, jumped on board and set that from his deck.  Then reset his anchor.  30 pound Danforth.  Monster, monster weed ball.  Minimal chain.  I felt reasonably good about my anchor selection after that.

 

When I said "painted plywood" I was meaning tabbed in, epoxied plywood.  I might go exterior ply vs marine for the interior structures.  I think I'd get 10 years out of it.  But definitely structural and glassed in. Just aesthetically I'm more interested in tough work boat stuff then teak and mahogany.  

 

For the record, thanks for all your thoughts. I don't mean to be argumentative.  I've thought about the boat non-stop since I had her hauled in September. So I appreciate your challenges on my ideas.  Mostly I just want her back in the water and to go sailing again.  



#38 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:59 PM

Would you really advise alchohol over propane?  I thought they all had different safety issues?  Propane is pretty convenient.  Also it's what I have.  

 

Oh yeah re: watertight lockers, I shouldn't have said "flotation" and I would intend to store stuff in them, so I think it would increase my storage.  Just if I got holed in the bow, like Robert Redford, I could isolate the section as I made a repair.  Still seems logical to me.



#39 Alex W

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 08:37 PM

 

The reefing line is dead ended at the eft end of the boom, runs up through the reefing cringle, down to a block near the end of the boom, forward to another block at the goosneck, up through the reefing cringle, down to a block at the base of the mast and back to the cockpit.

 

Yeah...that seems like a lot of friction.  Was advised it doesn't work that well?  

 

It being a wet boat, seems like a dodger is essential.  But don't know how to integrate the dodger and all the reefing lines. My inclination is to bring everything back to the mast and be done with it.

 

I used that setup for years on a Paceship 26.  We were able to pull the reefing line by hand and get it tight.  With the halyard partially released, there is less friction than you might think.

 

I use the same setup on my 28' boat.  Two easy upgrades helped it be even smoother:

1) Instead of running the line through cringles on the sail there are dogbones with Antal "blocks" at each cringle that the line runs over.  That is much lower friction.  It also lets me use the reefing hook for the tack in higher winds.

2) My reefing is dyneema (Amsteel SK78) spliced to double braid where it goes through the clutch.

 

WP_20130813_001-M.jpg

 

I do think that the friction is likely a problem as the boat gets bigger.  Our mainsails aren't that big.

 

One thing that I really don't like about my setup is the amount of load that is put onto the 4 rivets that hold the payeye to my mast.  With the line going through the sail cringle instead of the dogbone the amount of turning being done around that padeye is greatly reduced.



#40 Figment

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:16 PM

Paceship 26 has about half as much main as a triton.

It's a CCA boat.  Big main, small foretriangle.  

Single-line reefing doesn't work out that well, and also adds clusterfuck potential to every hoist and douse.

 

Unless you're buying a new boom with all the right pieces in all the right places, just run everything to the mast.   Less is more.

Also, don't worry about pre-rigging the 3rd reef.   For the infrequent occasion that you really want to run in oh-shit conditions like that you'll take the time to drop the main and rig the reef and rehoist.
 



#41 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:25 PM

I like the block idea though.  Currently the line goes from the boom into the cringle then back to the boom.  I can't see why it needs to start on the boom.  Could you dead end it into the leach cringle and have it pull from there?  That would eliminate some spaghetti.  

 

Never having had reason to use the third reef, I do wonder if you'd want to mess with pulling the main all the way down to rig the reef at the time you'd need it?  Particularly with getting to the third reef cringle, now with dinghy and dodger in the way?

 

Am I mistaken?  I thought that propane was pretty common with cruisers?  My tank is in the cockpit under a grating.  I do need to install a solenoid, the installation is not up to snuff.



#42 Figment

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:33 PM

I like the block idea though.  Currently the line goes from the boom into the cringle then back to the boom.  I can't see why it needs to start on the boom.  Could you dead end it into the leach cringle and have it pull from there?  That would eliminate some spaghetti.  

That would also eliminate an absolutely-necessary 2:1 purchase on the line.



#43 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:35 PM

I like the block idea though.  Currently the line goes from the boom into the cringle then back to the boom.  I can't see why it needs to start on the boom.  Could you dead end it into the leach cringle and have it pull from there?  That would eliminate some spaghetti.  

That would also eliminate an absolutely-necessary 2:1 purchase on the line.

got it.



#44 SemiSalt

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:45 PM

Would you really advise alcohol over propane?

 

Alcohol is mixed bag. It can't explode. It can cause a fire, and you can have flare-ups when lighting a stove if you aren't careful, but the fire can be put out with water. Sometimes the flame can be hard to see which is a burn hazard. The flame is not especially hot as stoves go. All fuels give off a some water vapor, but alcohol seems to be especially bad that way.



#45 Alex W

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:54 PM

Flare-ups are not a concern with unpressurized alcohol stoves like the Origo, right?  I've never heard of or experienced one.

 

I see little reason to have something other than alcohol for a 2 burner stove on a boat.  It works great, is cheap and simple, and the fuel is pretty easy to get.



#46 Diarmuid

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:16 PM

One other issue...running downwind.  I don't have a spinnaker and have never really sailed with one.  I was pondering a drifter of some sort but was advised that I might do nearly as well with wing and wing with a pole and/or a large genoaish thing set flying.  Thoughts?

Triton ain't going faster than hull speed anyhow, so there's diminishing return to piling on the bloopers, whompers, and gollywobblers.;) That said, sail area matters, as does some way to keep the sails stable as the boat is rolling around downwind. We have become extremely fond of the nylon drifter/genoa/Code Zero.  It's a fairly versatile sail if built modest in all dimensions: it'll draw from 50 to 120 degrees true, deeper if you pole it out to weather.  It gets the apparent wind going, which stabilizes the main & the boat itself.  It mostly uses existing deck hardware, stores small, and is not very expensive. It's easy for one person to manage, mostly from the cockpit. A high clew & some light-air sheets, & that sail will add a full knot to your light air performance & have you sailing to weather when a Dacron genoa would be hanging limp.

 

Best if it flies on its own luff & has a slightly positive luff round; that lets you slack the halyard & really power it up.



#47 sully75

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 10:39 PM

You can beat full on to windward with a sail that flies on its own luff?  I thought that would end up pulling you off the wind?  I have a genoa that I rarely use...weather helm builds steadily to about 10 knots, at that point the working jib balances the boat perfectly.  So I rarely ended up using the genoa.

 

I've been pondering buying a genoa from a slightly larger boat that will make it to the masthead for running downwind poled out in light air.

 

How's my idea about leading the jib halyard to the foredeck so that I can drop the furling sails from there?  

 

Thanks

Paul



#48 SemiSalt

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:51 PM

For plywood, consider MDO. It's basically marine plywood with a paper surface to make it easy to paint. It's usually available locally. Half inch is the usual.



#49 rantifarian

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 01:22 AM

Do you really drop the furling sails often enough to need the jib halyard led forwards?

 

You are better off getting a decent whisker pole for your current headsail than getting a bigger genoa. If you want a dedicated downwind sail, get a kite, but don't be surprised at how small the speed increase is.

 

With regards to friction in you reefing system, using 4mm SK78 with a tail, like Alex W has suggested, will be a revelation compared with the 8mm or so braid you are likely using now. A single line system is eminently doable, provided you take the time with temporary mounts to test all of the lead angles and get everything right.  Having marks on your halyards at the right height for reefing is probably of more use to you though.



#50 TQA

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 01:34 AM

You might want to take a look for a thread on Sailnet? about a couple and a dog who tried to sail a Triton from California to the Eastern Caribbean. They were somewhere off Columbia when they were hit with a breaking wave which pushed in the hull separating it from the deck for about 15 feet and breaking up much of the interior woodwork. They limped to shelter and basically abandoned the boat. 



#51 hard aground

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:52 AM

I'm considering putting a line stopper on the mast for the genoa halyard. Then at the base of the mast I can clip a snatchblock and either run the tail forward when I'm dousing the jib and want to control it or aft to a winch when I'm hauling a sail up.  Except for the cost I'd ask if you had given any consideration to a Lehman outboard? They run on propane too, so it would cut down on your quantities of different fuels. I trust you use your outboard on the dinghy too?



#52 Diarmuid

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:03 AM

You can beat full on to windward with a sail that flies on its own luff?  I thought that would end up pulling you off the wind?

Absolutely you can point on a flying sail.  That's what a Code0 is. Some people sock it, some put it on a removable furler, some (like us) just clip it to a bow strop & hoist it flying on a spare spinnaker halyard. Note this Albin Vega's nylon genny is set on its own luff, independent of the furled genoa:

 

 

Yes, the luff inevitably sags off to leeward; you won't point as high as a jib on a forestay, and you DO need substantial luff tension on a Zero if you want to point above 55-60 degrees.  Maybe even a 2:1 halyard. But if you are willing to give up ~10 degrees of pointing angle in exchange for apparent wind & VMG, you'll trade that luff sag for a sail that pulls like a mule in 3 kts true & stays inflated on ocean swell. In the video, you'll notice the boom is trimmed for a close reach & the Vega is hitting 6.5kts in what looks like mebbe 8-10 kts wind. Pretty respectable for an old warhorse.;) You can't push a nylon sail too hard upwind, tho, even though the material is quite strong.  First whitecap, it has to come down.



#53 stickboy

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:30 AM

You can beat full on to windward with a sail that flies on its own luff?  I thought that would end up pulling you off the wind?  I have a genoa that I rarely use...weather helm builds steadily to about 10 knots, at that point the working jib balances the boat perfectly.  So I rarely ended up using the genoa.

 

I've been pondering buying a genoa from a slightly larger boat that will make it to the masthead for running downwind poled out in light air.

 

How's my idea about leading the jib halyard to the foredeck so that I can drop the furling sails from there?  

 

Thanks

Paul

Don't spend too much time getting creative with things like the jib halyard on the foredeck, look around at what others are doing. If you don't see it on at least half a dozen other boats there's probably a reason why.

 

I like all my lines at the mast but I'm just a coastal cruiser and it's much easier that way. If I had to do work in heavy weather in the dark I'd want everything in the cockpit. Again, there is no need to get creative here, people with many sea miles have already figured this out.

 

I saw a Triton once with the outboard on a mount up near the winches, it looked like a pretty good setup, it kept the motor in the water much better and was easier to pull off and stow.

 

You're going to get lots of recommendations for the 2 burner Origo stove and there's good reason. It's WAY simpler than propane which makes it much safer, the fuel is easy to stow and takes up less space.

 

It looks like you're in the northeast, check with this guy: http://www.northeast...boatrescue.com/ He lived on his Triton for a couple years and sailed to Florida & back on what sounds like your budget, he has three in his yard right now.

 

Maybe you can borrow an asym or a pole to see what works for you. We have both and use the pole more than the asym. The asym comes out in LIGHT air on long legs but that would probably work for you more than me.

 

What is the condition of your main and jib? To me that's the most important thing to start with, especially if you plan to do minimal motoring.



#54 sully75

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 06:18 AM

Main and Jib (and genoa) are all great.  No probs.  The boat is totally sailable as-is other than the standing rigging needing to be replaced and a question about the soundness of the mast (will be figuring that out this winter).

 

The guy with the outboard near the mast is probably an Alberg 30, he's the guy who designed the Cape Horn windvane.  

 

I've never seen the jib halyard led forward.  That said, it's pretty frustrating to try to change the jib to the genoa and want to feed it into the slot but the halyard is in the cockpit.  Fine if you are two handing but single handing it's a total pain in the ass.  It's not like I'm going to drop the jib from the cockpit the way you'd do if it were a hank on jib.  I don't change it often, but I'd like to be able to.



#55 Ajax

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:58 PM

Correct. The flare-up is only an issue with pressurized stoves.

Alcohol is a trade-off:  You trade a few extra minutes to heat things up, for a much larger margin of safety.

 

Yes, the flame can be hard to see in direct, bright sunlight. Otherwise, it's pretty plain to see. Even so, the Origo has this diffuser thing, and the flame is below that. You'd have to stick your finger inside the diffuser to make direct contact with the flame.

 

There's a couple of ways to go about the fuel issue. He could use propane for cooking, buy a Lehr outboard, and have a "single fuel" solution. No worry about spilling a liquid fuel, but there's some work to do, to store the tanks safely.

He doesn't have a diesel inboard, so he can't have a diesel "single fuel" solution.

If he keeps the gasoline outboard engine, he's a 2-fuel solution.  Alcohol is the safer fuel to store, and cook with, and as said earlier, takes up less space.

 

When I was living aboard, I could cook 2 meals a day, for a week straight before refueling my Origo 2-burner.

No spillage, no flare-ups.

 

Also, the Cook Mate 4200 is a copy of the Origo that costs a lot less than the Origo brand.

I got my $400 Origo off of Craigslist for $60, never used once.

 

Flare-ups are not a concern with unpressurized alcohol stoves like the Origo, right?  I've never heard of or experienced one.

 

I see little reason to have something other than alcohol for a 2 burner stove on a boat.  It works great, is cheap and simple, and the fuel is pretty easy to get.



#56 Figment

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:11 PM

I've never seen the jib halyard led forward.  That said, it's pretty frustrating to try to change the jib to the genoa and want to feed it into the slot but the halyard is in the cockpit.  Fine if you are two handing but single handing it's a total pain in the ass.  It's not like I'm going to drop the jib from the cockpit the way you'd do if it were a hank on jib.  I don't change it often, but I'd like to be able to.

 

You're overthinking it.

 

Open the clutch in the cockpit.

Walk up to the mast, run all the slack out of the halyard so it's in a pile at your feet instead of a pile in the cockpit.

Walk the whole two steps to the forestay with the working end of the halyard in your hand to manage the drop or the hoist.



#57 Ajax

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:30 PM

I've never seen the jib halyard led forward.  That said, it's pretty frustrating to try to change the jib to the genoa and want to feed it into the slot but the halyard is in the cockpit.  Fine if you are two handing but single handing it's a total pain in the ass.  It's not like I'm going to drop the jib from the cockpit the way you'd do if it were a hank on jib.  I don't change it often, but I'd like to be able to.

 

You're overthinking it.

 

Open the clutch in the cockpit.

Walk up to the mast, run all the slack out of the halyard so it's in a pile at your feet instead of a pile in the cockpit.

Walk the whole two steps to the forestay with the working end of the halyard in your hand to manage the drop or the hoist.

 

+1, Fig. 

If necessary, replace the halyard with a slightly longer one, so that you can accomplish this.



#58 Alex W

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:23 PM

Correct. The flare-up is only an issue with pressurized stoves.
Alcohol is a trade-off:  You trade a few extra minutes to heat things up, for a much larger margin of safety.
 
Yes, the flame can be hard to see in direct, bright sunlight. Otherwise, it's pretty plain to see. Even so, the Origo has this diffuser thing, and the flame is below that. You'd have to stick your finger inside the diffuser to make direct contact with the flame.
 
Also, the Cook Mate 4200 is a copy of the Origo that costs a lot less than the Origo brand.
I got my $400 Origo off of Craigslist for $60, never used once.

 

The diffuser is optional with the Origo stoves, it is there to allow better low temp heat control. You can remove it for higher temps. The flame just shoots straight up on my stove.  On my small camping teakettle it will wrap around the kettle if I turn the flame on it's highest setting.
 

$60 for an Origo 2-burner is great.  I bought a used one on eBay and wasn't so lucky, I had to braze back a broken weld.  However it worked fine since then.  My Pearson came from the factory with an Origo flush mount stove, and 28 years later it still functions great.

 

The Cook-Mate stuff is a little rougher around the edges if you look at it in person, but seems to functional just as well.

 

I'm not sure that the Origo stove is really any slower than the smaller propane burners used on most boat stoves.  I haven't lived on my boat, but I used the stove a few times a day every day for about 7 weeks this summer and never found it slow.  I went through 2 gallons of alcohol in that time, including some long cooking operations like making lentil soup (2 hours of simmering).



#59 Py26129

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:15 PM

The diffuser is optional with the Origo stoves, it is there to allow better low temp heat control. You can remove it for higher temps. The flame just shoots straight up on my stove.  On my small camping teakettle it will wrap around the kettle if I turn the flame on it's highest setting.
 

$60 for an Origo 2-burner is great.  I bought a used one on eBay and wasn't so lucky, I had to braze back a broken weld.  However it worked fine since then.  My Pearson came from the factory with an Origo flush mount stove, and 28 years later it still functions great.

 

The Cook-Mate stuff is a little rougher around the edges if you look at it in person, but seems to functional just as well.

 

I'm not sure that the Origo stove is really any slower than the smaller propane burners used on most boat stoves.  I haven't lived on my boat, but I used the stove a few times a day every day for about 7 weeks this summer and never found it slow.  I went through 2 gallons of alcohol in that time, including some long cooking operations like making lentil soup (2 hours of simmering).

 

I'llbe damned!  I did not know hat the diffuser was optional.  Time to do some water heating trials. 

 

I love this forum.  One minute we're talking about Sully's Triton, then boobs and then you learn something about your stove.



#60 Bulbhunter

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:48 PM

Correct. The flare-up is only an issue with pressurized stoves.

Alcohol is a trade-off:  You trade a few extra minutes to heat things up, for a much larger margin of safety.

 

Yes, the flame can be hard to see in direct, bright sunlight. Otherwise, it's pretty plain to see. Even so, the Origo has this diffuser thing, and the flame is below that. You'd have to stick your finger inside the diffuser to make direct contact with the flame.

 

There's a couple of ways to go about the fuel issue. He could use propane for cooking, buy a Lehr outboard, and have a "single fuel" solution. No worry about spilling a liquid fuel, but there's some work to do, to store the tanks safely.

He doesn't have a diesel inboard, so he can't have a diesel "single fuel" solution.

If he keeps the gasoline outboard engine, he's a 2-fuel solution.  Alcohol is the safer fuel to store, and cook with, and as said earlier, takes up less space.

 

When I was living aboard, I could cook 2 meals a day, for a week straight before refueling my Origo 2-burner.

No spillage, no flare-ups.

 

Also, the Cook Mate 4200 is a copy of the Origo that costs a lot less than the Origo brand.

I got my $400 Origo off of Craigslist for $60, never used once.

 

Flare-ups are not a concern with unpressurized alcohol stoves like the Origo, right?  I've never heard of or experienced one.

 

I see little reason to have something other than alcohol for a 2 burner stove on a boat.  It works great, is cheap and simple, and the fuel is pretty easy to get.

I have noticed some RV shops use the Origo also. Might luck out and find it cheaper there at the RV parts dealer vs marine shop. I talked Defender down $30 on mine. Replaced the old pressureized one that was a fire ball waiting to happen. Any alcohol stove can be trouble if the Alcohol is old. I really really like our Origo though works great first time we used it I made pancakes for the wife she was pretty happy about the expense justification after that especially given I was able to do it without fire balls and missing eyebrows along with lots of swearing and terrified screaming which the old pressurized stove generated even with it 100% working proper it was not enjoyable. The Origo on the other hand is just a very enjoyable stove top that works great.



#61 chessiebaysailor

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 06:25 PM

I've never seen the jib halyard led forward.  That said, it's pretty frustrating to try to change the jib to the genoa and want to feed it into the slot but the halyard is in the cockpit.  Fine if you are two handing but single handing it's a total pain in the ass.  It's not like I'm going to drop the jib from the cockpit the way you'd do if it were a hank on jib.  I don't change it often, but I'd like to be able to.

I left the halyards on my Tartan 30 at the mast.  With a tiller pilot, it was usually easy to hoist/douse at the mast while solo. I would change out the big genoa for the smaller one in the roller furler when I had consistent breeze forecast and having the winch on the mast let me put a couple of turns on the winch then walk forward with the tail so I could get the sail feeding the groove correctly ( the prefeeder never worked like I wanted so I had to "help" the luff in) and pull on the halyard as needed.  The reverse also was true.  When dropping the headsail out of the foil alone, it let me control the drop w/ one hand and yank/contain the sail w/ the other as it came out of the foil.



#62 bpw

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:47 PM


Hello all,

 

I have a 61 Pearson Triton.  I lived on her for 3 months this summer after getting her in June.  Had a blast.  I'm working towards making her a more capable blue water single or double handed cruiser.  A fair amount of good work has been done in the past but there's a lot left to do.  Just wondering if you would send your ideas my way about changes you'd make.  I'm open to relatively radical mods (hard dodger for instance) if they would solve problems.

 

Some details about the boat as she stands

1) Inboard has been removed, aperture fared in.  Boat sails amazingly well and does pretty well in light winds.  I have an outboard that works well in calms but not in chop.  Not going to make a well because I want the storage and also it will interfere with the self steering.  I'm going to refit the outboard mount that I have (fixed) this year with a moveable one because the outboard never gets out of the water currently and I'd like to get it lower).  Currently the space where the inboard was is mostly not used.  I'm planning on building a plywood/epoxy water tank in that area (although still a little unclear as to whether epoxy is safe for water).

 

Despite what many will tell you it is perfectly possible to cruise with minimal or no engine.  Range is not a problem as long as you have time and a can of gas for your outboard is no more dangerous than the gas that almost every cruising boat carries for the outboard.  You won't need to get towed all over the place either, just learn to sail well in tight places and be patient.

 

We Filled in the forward part of our cockpit to make a big bridge deck and now have a very nice place for storage or a head/hanging locker where our motor used to be.  The smaller cockpit is nice and the big flat bridge deck has actually been a very comfy place to lounge around.

 

 


2) Rig: there is some ? as to the soundness of the mast.  Long story.  Rigger is examining it in the next couple weeks.  Regardless, she will get all new standing rigging this year.  Currently all halyards and reefing lines are led back to the cockpit.  I've found this less helpful than I thought, as I still need to go forward to the mast for reefing to get to the tack hook.  And the roller jib halyard being back in the cockpit is a major pain.  So I'm going to bring the reefing lines to the boom and the halyards to the mast and eliminate a lot of complexity.  I'm pondering leading the jib halyard forward to make changing the jib on the furler a more doable proposition.

 


We just replaced with Dynex Dux rigging, I really like it and it was cheaper than wire.

 


I'm thinking about going to a double boom vang/preventer thing with two sides led to the toe rails (see dinghy piece below).  Need a beefier mainsheet traveller I think too.

 

We have this type of set-up and I really don't like it, lots of string on deck and you can't use it in a tight spot since it slows you down trimming the main.  It is also one more thing to catch on stuff during a gybe.  If we could run a normal vang I would.

 

 


3) Anchoring.  Currently using a 35 pound mantus as my main anchor with a 35 pound bruce/claw as my second.  These are both "storm" anchors for the boat and have held really well in some crappy circumstances.  75' of chain on the Mantus and 30 feet of chain on the bruce.  I had no windlass last year, so I'm going to add a Lofrans Royal manual windlass this summer.  My power is minimal so I don't think I can use an electric windlass.

 

We have a 15kg Rocna as our primary and I rarely use our windlass since it is so much faster to pull up by hand.  If you go to 1/4 inch chain it is very easy to haul up, but even with 5/16 I don't have much trouble.  If you plan to cruise somewhere with kelp or very deep water a windlass is nice.  I also like ours for sending someone up the rig.  Manual is the way to go, with a long handle you can pull much harder than a small electric windless.

 


4) Dinghy. I had a small very tender pram this year which was very mediocre.  I'm going to be building a 7' Catspaw from B&B designs this winter, I'm pretty sure this will be much better.  I'm planning on fitting it out with a good bit more flotation too so that it will function as a lifeboat somewhat.  My problem here is that there isn't all that much space between the mast and the companionway.  I'd also like to fit a dodger.  The current dinghy just misses the vang.  I'd like to get preventers anyway.  So...that's why I'm thinking of the dual vang/preventer set up.  I'm still trying to figure out how to get the dinghy and the dodger to work together.  The current dinghy overhangs the hatch by about a foot.I could make the dinghy have a removable transom to give me some more room.  I thought about a nesting dinghy but am serious about wanting the lifeboat capability and putting together a 2 part dinghy in a bad situation seems like a bad idea.  I could shorten the hatch to meet the dodger.  I've also been wondering about eliminating the hatch but making a permanent sloping roof over the companionway (a bit like a square version of a Contessa hatch)

 

I really like our folding dinghy, but we have a life raft as well.

 

 

5) Self steering: I'm heavily leaning towards a Cape Horn windvane.  Looks to be really excellent at steering, looks nice, price is good, not too much stuff on the stern and will integrate with a tiller pilot and minimize electricity use.  

 

We have a Cape Horn, nice piece of gear.

 


6) Flotation: I want to make watertight compartments.  In particular under the V birth I'd like to make two seperate compartments...feels like this is the most sensitive area for a collision.  Actually 3, because I'd like to put a forwards bulkhead to block in the anchor locker.  Then another one under the v-birth about 3 feet back, and then another one at the end of the v-birth.  I'm also planning on a removable baffle for the head and a permanent baffle in the hanging locker that goes above the waterline.  

 

Bulkheads are nice but you will potentially lose a lot of space.  Possible with some good planning though and would give piece of mind.  I will try to work some in on our new boat.

 

7) Sails: The main has 3 reef points, currently it has jiffy reefing on the first two, nothing on the third.  I'd like to put an adjustable reef track on the boom (currently just has two fixed pullies) so I can fit either 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 reefs depending on conditions.  I'm hoping the 3rd reef will take the place of a trysail, which I don't have.  I have an old storm jib that I'm thinking about fitting a roller furling wire to that I could use in place of the working jib if it looked like things were getting ugly.  I was pondering switching to a masthead rig but I'm not sure that it has much added value.

 

If going offshore a trysail is very nice.  I like ours for running in heavy weather, no worries about gybing the boom.  They are quite cheap used.  I like 2 deep reefs instead of 3 for less clutter and better sail shape.

 

Since you will have limited powering ability I would seriously consider switching to hank jibs.  To keep the boat moving you will need to switch sails quite a bit and it is so much easier with hanks.  A nice flat cut smaller headsail will make the difference between moving and bouncing up and down in place when it is rough.  Your sails are very important when you have limited engine, so spend the money for good, absolutely bombproof sails.  Our sails where built by Neil Pryde to their "tradewinds" spec and we have been very happy with them.  Our main is full batten 9 oz dacron, staysail is 8 oz.  Very heavy for a boat our size but it was a good choice for our trip.  I wish I had put battens in the staysail. 

 

Another important set of conditions to think about is light air with sloppy seas, you want some sort of light drifter or asym that won't get the wind shaken out of it every time the boat rolls.  We often sail with deep reefed main and a big Asym in light air offshore.

 


8) Galley: Currently have a little two burner gimballed propane stove.  I find it to be more trouble than it's worth.  I'd like to go with a 2 burner fixed stove and then a swinging gimballed portable 1 burner stove for cooking while under way.  Not sure which 2 burner to go with but something that has a lot of fiddles to lock stuff down.

 

We use Kerosene but will be switching to propane.  If you are leaving the US alcohol is too expensive, we spend as much on our pre-heat alcohol as we do on cooking fuel.  I like non-gimballed stoves, ideally mounted crosswise.

 


I'll leave it at that.  I've thought about this stuff a lot but it seems like the crowd here is pretty knowledgable...so if you have any thoughts, please let me know.

 

We have a 28 foot William Atkin Inga built in ferro-cement and no auxillary propulsion except a sculling oar.  We have spent the last 3 years going from San Francisco to the Beagle Channel with 7 months in the Chilean channels.  I love being without an engine and would make the same choice again.  We may put an outboard on our next boat since we would like to visit the Canals of Europe, but for this trip again I would not bother to carry a motor.  These are all ideas that have worked for us in the real world, I am sure you will come up with some better ones that fit what you plan to do.  Always happy to answer questions.



#63 bpw

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:53 PM

Also, forgot to add,

 

We run our entire boat on a single 50 watt solar panel.  Only place it has not been enough was winter in southern Chile when it was never sunny and even if it was the sun was too low to clear the mountains.  Everywhere else we have had plenty of power.  If you want to run a laptop full time you might need a bit more. 



#64 Ajax

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:26 PM

bpw-

 

Do you have a blog or any photos to share?

Sounds like you're doing the "minimalist cruiser" thing to the hilt. Your choice of boat is very interesting as well.



#65 bpw

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:28 PM

No blog, but some (actually about a thousand) photos here:  https://picasaweb.go...r=0&feat=direct 

 

Dont read too much into choice of boat, she is what we had and could afford.  A good boat that we like in many ways but we actually just found a nice aluminum fin keeler in need of lots of work that will be our next boat.  The biggest downside of our current boat is lack of speed to windward and she is a bit slow to manuver in tight places.

 

But I would much rather have spent the last three years cruising than working to afford the perfect boat. 

 

Our simple cruising is what we like, no agenda or strong belief that it is the best or only way to cruise.  We enjoy not having a motor and sailing small boats but it is surely not for everyoner and all situations.  I do think some time spent without an engine is a great thing for all sailors to experience, the increase in sailing skill is wonderful.

 

If I get around to it I have been planning to write a post about sailing without an engine.  I think the lack of information and misinformation makes it hard for someone to make the leap even if they would like to.  When I was first considering removing our engine the only info I could find was the Pardys books and a bunch of forum posts about how cruising was impossible and dangerous without an inboard diesel.  The Pardy books have some good tidbits but they are a bit too traditional for me and 40 years out of date.  Not having a motor and wanting a simple boat is no reason to ignore 50 years of materials and design work.  We have a traditional hull and no motor, but we also have dyneema standing rigging and full batten sails.  Traditional hulled boats can often be had cheap and do just fine, but given the choice we will be switching to a fin and more modern underbody.



#66 Figment

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:06 PM

  Traditional hulled boats can often be had cheap and do just fine, but given the choice we will be switching to a fin and more modern underbody.

 

Good on you.    Engineless and weak to windward seems an unhappy combination.



#67 beezer

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:36 PM

Triton with outboard.  Done that.  Hayadori, hull #406 had a 15 HP on the back.  Overkill as it would squat the ass end down under full throttle.  I mounted it with a swinging outboard bracket to keep it deep.  It worked mostly but I should have learned how to fix the broken A4 in retrospect.  In choppy water the thing would pop out and I eventually spun the prop on it as a result.   Nothing like the sound of a full throttle outboard popping out of the water.  If you go the Outboard route one word of advice, make surre that your 50 year old gas tank is not full of rust before you plumb the new engine into the old tank.  Dissapointing to see a brand new outboard sidelined by a rusty tank. Whoops! 

 

The outboard option is to be avoided, but you might be stuck with it because of the glassed over shaft thing.  That boat has such a nice stern line and the outboard just looks ghetto. When i F-ed up my shiny new outboard I learned that you can tow a triton with an avon redcrest (read rubber donut) dinghy and oars.  Got some funny comments at Worlds Worst Marina (Worlds fair marina) in New York when I rowed it into a slip.  Not advocating that nonsene, just saying it can be done in a pinch.   

 

You are overthinking a lot of this stuff just like I did.  Forget positive floatation etc.  The boat is a tank.  Fix whats broken.  Made sure the deck isnt balsa mush and learn to sail it how it is before reinventing the wheel.  Then if it still sucks for you reinvent.  Replace the inevitable cracked plexigalss windows, screw down that funky little beer hatch in the cockpit when offshore and you will be right as rain.    

 

Incedentally this is the boat where I leared I am not a finish carpenter.  If like me you find you are doing your wookworking with a 5 lb sledge... just step away.  Amazing how those "improvements" can leave things looking worse than when you started.

 

Great little boat.  Simplicity is its best feature, followed by its forgiving nature.



#68 sully75

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:34 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions.  For the record, I'm pretty cool with the outboard.  I have a 4 stroke Suzuki 6.  Medium shaft.  It's not perfect for the boat, longer shaft would be nice, but I've never had a problem pushing the boat as long as the engine was working (it slowly died over a couple of weeks, took me forever to realize that it was a spun prop - after that, no problem).  It will consistently push the boat at 4 knots.  If I don't run it dry (which I have a bad habit of), it starts on the first pull.  My main problem is the mount, which is fixed...the engine is always in the water, even when kicker up (not by much but it's still an inch or two in).  So this year a better moveable mount. 


But it was like that when I bought it, and it's probably a pretty good balance between an inboard and a sculling oar.  If things are calm enough that I feel I need it, it's there.  But it's unpleasant enough to deal with that I'm inclined to just sail.  It definitely does not flatter the boat, but the boat is ultimately sort of like a VW camper anyway.  Not a ferrari. 

 

I'm inclined to keep with propane for the stove.  I also have a Magma grill/stove on the rail that I use disposable containers with, it's great for the summer for making tea in the morning when it's hot.  I'd also like to add in a gimballed one burner.  I need to get a solenoid and gauge...the piping for the propane is totally substandard. 

 

Mostly though I'm concerned about making the rig more solid, efficient and easy to use.  That and self steering and the windlass will be this year's additions.

 

For the record though I sailed and lived on this boat every day for 2.5 months this summer.  It was new to me in July but by September after sailing it by myself I have a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't. 



#69 sully75

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:45 AM

Thanks for your reply BPW

 

 

We have this type of set-up and I really don't like it, lots of string on deck and you can't use it in a tight spot since it slows you down trimming the main.  It is also one more thing to catch on stuff during a gybe.  If we could run a normal vang I would.

 

Noted!

 

We have a 15kg Rocna as our primary and I rarely use our windlass since it is so much faster to pull up by hand.  If you go to 1/4 inch chain it is very easy to haul up, but even with 5/16 I don't have much trouble.  If you plan to cruise somewhere with kelp or very deep water a windlass is nice.  I also like ours for sending someone up the rig.  Manual is the way to go, with a long handle you can pull much harder than a small electric windless.

 

Generally I would agree...but the times when I really needed it this summer were pretty miserable and exhausting.  45 minutes to pull in two anchors and 100' of chain.  I was also sick at the time and by myself.  It was not fun.  From watching videos of manual windlasses, it seems slow enough that I'd only end up using it when I needed it. 
 

Bulkheads are nice but you will potentially lose a lot of space.  Possible with some good planning though and would give piece of mind.  I will try to work some in on our new boat.

 

On my boat under the v berth is just open space.  The berth itself is just plywood over the empty hull.  There's a water tank underneath but nothing else.  So...making bulkheads with hatches on top seems like it would actually give me some more useable space.

 

 

If going offshore a trysail is very nice.  I like ours for running in heavy weather, no worries about gybing the boom.  They are quite cheap used.  I like 2 deep reefs instead of 3 for less clutter and better sail shape.

 

How do you run with the trysail?  it's sheeted in to the stern on both sides? 

 

Since you will have limited powering ability I would seriously consider switching to hank jibs.  To keep the boat moving you will need to switch sails quite a bit and it is so much easier with hanks.  A nice flat cut smaller headsail will make the difference between moving and bouncing up and down in place when it is rough.  Your sails are very important when you have limited engine, so spend the money for good, absolutely bombproof sails.  Our sails where built by Neil Pryde to their "tradewinds" spec and we have been very happy with them.  Our main is full batten 9 oz dacron, staysail is 8 oz.  Very heavy for a boat our size but it was a good choice for our trip.  I wish I had put battens in the staysail. 

 

My sails currently are pretty sweet.  No problems other than the downwind thing.

 

Another important set of conditions to think about is light air with sloppy seas, you want some sort of light drifter or asym that won't get the wind shaken out of it every time the boat rolls.  We often sail with deep reefed main and a big Asym in light air offshore.

 

Yeah I'm definitely understanding that a bit more from this thread.  I need to figure somethig out about a light air sail. 

 

Thanks again for your thoughts.  Nice pictures.


8) Galley: Currently have a little two burner gimballed propane stove.  I find it to be more trouble than it's worth.  I'd like to go with a 2 burner fixed stove and then a swinging gimballed portable 1 burner stove for cooking while under way.  Not sure which 2 burner to go with but something that has a lot of fiddles to lock stuff down.

 

We use Kerosene but will be switching to propane.  If you are leaving the US alcohol is too expensive, we spend as much on our pre-heat alcohol as we do on cooking fuel.  I like non-gimballed stoves, ideally mounted crosswise.

 


I'll leave it at that.  I've thought about this stuff a lot but it seems like the crowd here is pretty knowledgable...so if you have any thoughts, please let me know.

 

We have a 28 foot William Atkin Inga built in ferro-cement and no auxillary propulsion except a sculling oar.  We have spent the last 3 years going from San Francisco to the Beagle Channel with 7 months in the Chilean channels.  I love being without an engine and would make the same choice again.  We may put an outboard on our next boat since we would like to visit the Canals of Europe, but for this trip again I would not bother to carry a motor.  These are all ideas that have worked for us in the real world, I am sure you will come up with some better ones that fit what you plan to do.  Always happy to answer questions.



#70 Tom Ray

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:24 AM

I have used propane, white gas, pressure alcohol, non-pressure alcohol and electric stoves on boats.

 

The best ones are well-maintained stoves. Any of the above.

 

Keep your propane if you like it. Get that solenoid. I don't know why you'd need a gauge.



#71 sully75

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:42 AM

I was told that some places won't fill the tank without a gauge?

#72 Tom Ray

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:53 AM

Could be. That doesn't make much sense to me. If I'm taking a tank to be filled, it needs filling. What more would a gauge tell them?

 

Any tank you can pick up and shake doesn't really need one, unless getting it out to shake it is a PITA.



#73 bmiller

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 01:39 PM

I was told that some places won't fill the tank without a gauge?

I think you were told wrong.

 

Now if they don't have an OPD then no they will not fill it.



#74 Mark Morwood

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:40 PM

Lots of good advice above, particularly along the lines of keep it simple, and only change things if you have a really good reason to. As an example, you already have propane, so why change to alcohol for your stove? Both have their pros and cons, but you don't need more projects.

 

Generally I would agree...but the times when I really needed it this summer were pretty miserable and exhausting.  45 minutes to pull in two anchors and 100' of chain.  I was also sick at the time and by myself.  It was not fun.  From watching videos of manual windlasses, it seems slow enough that I'd only end up using it when I needed it. 

 

That's a lot of anchor(s) and chain for a boat your size for 95% of your anchoring. I don't know what the wind was when you had everything out, but you'll probably find with anchoring experience that you will be comfortable with less, in particular just one anchor at a time.

 

If I was in your position, I would try to get by without a windlass - which saves you some weight, cost and a toe stubber on the foredeck. I'm a big fan of the latest generation of anchors -  Rocna, Spade, Manson, etc. If I've got your boat specs right, Rocna's relatively conservative sizing chart would give you a 22lb anchor. Pair that with 30' of 1/4" HT  chain and a rope rode, and you should have a pretty easily handled anchoring set up which should work for everything except a bad storm. Keep one of the bigger anchors with some chain for storm conditions and as a backup.

 

I know lots of the classic books talk about using two anchors, but for 99% of our cruising I've personally found it unnecessary. In tight spots we tie to the shore with a long line more often than we put out a second anchor. And with respect to holding, we've held comfortably in up to 45 kts so far without thinking about putting a second anchor out for holding reasons. (Caveat: that is on a 48' catamaran with a 33kg Rocna on 200' of 3/8" HT chain).



#75 bpw

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:54 PM

We run the trysail sheeted to the corners, through a block and then to our winches.  Works very nicely, our boat has an 18.5 foot boom that is very nice to get out of the way when it is rough.  WIth a smaller main boom and coastal cruising It might be lower priority.

 

If I remember correctly, the gauge is required on the tank so you an check for leaks: open valve, check pressure, close valve, come back in half hour or so and make sure gauge reads the same.  It is boat specific so you should have no trouble getting tanks filled without but may be a problem with insurance survey.

 

Our stove is fixed, never been a problem in rough weather, just need big fiddles and tall pots.  Pressure cookers are the best.  A small gimballed stove would be nice in the tropics because you could take it outside or cook right near the companionway and not heat the boat up so much.  We have a small sea-swing stove but don't use it much anymore because it is too small for our pressure cooker.

 

I will be doing something similar to your bulkhead idea on our new boat, but we plan to go to ice.  I am planning a forward collision bulkhead plus integral water tanks along the hull to create a double hull.

 

If you can afford the windlass get one, nice to have onboard for all kinds of stuff, like kedging off when you go aground.  Look into tandem anchoring, been old by many with experience that it works great and easier than two seperate rodes.  On the other hand, with our 15kg Rocna we never needed to try, so I bet you are fine with just your big hook in almost any conditions.  We do run a second hook sometimes to keep from swinging, but I normally pull it up from the dinghy.  Found the best way to get hook up by hand is lots of patience and sail it out, the tacking back and forth seems to help pull loose.  We are double-handed though, makes everything easier.

 

I designed our windlass mount so I could easily take off the windlass and stow below for long passages.  I also moved our anchor locker aft.  It is a piece of 8 inch PVC pipe mounted next to the mast.  Really helps get weight out of the bow and never tangles like chain and line do in a normal locker.  5 foot tall 8 inch PVC stores 100 feet of 5/16 chain and about 150 feet of 1/2 line easily.



#76 Mark Morwood

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:27 PM

If I remember correctly, the gauge is required on the tank so you an check for leaks: open valve, check pressure, close valve, come back in half hour or so and make sure gauge reads the same.  It is boat specific so you should have no trouble getting tanks filled without but may be a problem with insurance survey.

 

The gauge is not on the tank, it is typically mounted on the regulator and as bpw describes is used to pressure test the whole propane system. This article includes a diagram of one of the standard configurations: http://www.boatus.co...ane-systems.asp



#77 sully75

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:22 AM

You might want to take a look for a thread on Sailnet? about a couple and a dog who tried to sail a Triton from California to the Eastern Caribbean. They were somewhere off Columbia when they were hit with a breaking wave which pushed in the hull separating it from the deck for about 15 feet and breaking up much of the interior woodwork. They limped to shelter and basically abandoned the boat. 

 

I've seen that before.  For the record, that is a "West Coast" Triton, built by Aeromarine.  Different cabin layout and different maker than the boats built by Pearson.  But I suppose the right wave for the right boat and things could have been worse.

 

Here's the post:

http://3-knots.com/2...-into-oblivion/

 

Do you think that wouldn't have happened to a comparable boat?  The Triton is supposed to be "tough" but I don't think it's necessarily "well built".  In the sense that they were built pretty sturdy but I don't think the labor was particularly skilled.

 

Regardless though, it's the boat I have.  James Baldwin has been around the world 2x and still has his.  That's a reasonable recomendation.



#78 sully75

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:31 AM

If you can afford the windlass get one, nice to have onboard for all kinds of stuff, like kedging off when you go aground.  Look into tandem anchoring, been old by many with experience that it works great and easier than two seperate rodes.  On the other hand, with our 15kg Rocna we never needed to try, so I bet you are fine with just your big hook in almost any conditions.  We do run a second hook sometimes to keep from swinging, but I normally pull it up from the dinghy.  Found the best way to get hook up by hand is lots of patience and sail it out, the tacking back and forth seems to help pull loose.  We are double-handed though, makes everything easier.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure that single handed I could sail an anchor out.  In rough conditions, the challenge has been getting the chain in physically...seems like sailing it out could increase the tension?  Or not.   Either way, not sure how I could tack the boat and be on deck at the same time.  I usually raise the main and sheet it dead middle...the boat forereaches a bit and once I get the anchor most of the way I can tie it off and go back the cockpit.  Once she's sailing I can go back on deck and get the anchor tied down. 

 

I designed our windlass mount so I could easily take off the windlass and stow below for long passages.  I also moved our anchor locker aft.  It is a piece of 8 inch PVC pipe mounted next to the mast.  Really helps get weight out of the bow and never tangles like chain and line do in a normal locker.  5 foot tall 8 inch PVC stores 100 feet of 5/16 chain and about 150 feet of 1/2 line easily.

 

I'm trying to picture this.  You have an 8" PVC pipe that goes through a hole in the deck from the mast?

 

Is your windlass bolted to the deck?  Never thought about making it removable.



#79 sully75

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

That's a lot of anchor(s) and chain for a boat your size for 95% of your anchoring. I don't know what the wind was when you had everything out, but you'll probably find with anchoring experience that you will be comfortable with less, in particular just one anchor at a time.

 

If I was in your position, I would try to get by without a windlass - which saves you some weight, cost and a toe stubber on the foredeck. I'm a big fan of the latest generation of anchors -  Rocna, Spade, Manson, etc. If I've got your boat specs right, Rocna's relatively conservative sizing chart would give you a 22lb anchor. Pair that with 30' of 1/4" HT  chain and a rope rode, and you should have a pretty easily handled anchoring set up which should work for everything except a bad storm. Keep one of the bigger anchors with some chain for storm conditions and as a backup.

 

I know lots of the classic books talk about using two anchors, but for 99% of our cruising I've personally found it unnecessary. In tight spots we tie to the shore with a long line more often than we put out a second anchor. And with respect to holding, we've held comfortably in up to 45 kts so far without thinking about putting a second anchor out for holding reasons. (Caveat: that is on a 48' catamaran with a 33kg Rocna on 200' of 3/8" HT chain).

 

Honestly I never thought twice about going with a smaller anchor.  I bought the "storm" Mantus for the boat and it was the best decision I made the whole summer.  I could see having the regular sized Mantus to use more regularly but the Storm is quite ungainly stored anywhere but on the bow, so I don't know where I'd store the regular one.  The awful part of getting the anchor up was the chain, once all the chain was up it wasn't so difficult to break out the anchor and lift it onboard. 

 

Anyway, I love the anchor.  Having never anchored before, it definitely gave me some "dumbass" wiggle room.  As far as I know I never dragged an inch.  I saw a 30' Cape Dory go sailing by with a fouled Danforth.  Anyway, I don't want to change the size of my anchor, I want to make it more managable.  I will ponder going to lighter chain though.  Currently 5/16".



#80 Ishmael

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:40 PM

That's a lot of anchor(s) and chain for a boat your size for 95% of your anchoring. I don't know what the wind was when you had everything out, but you'll probably find with anchoring experience that you will be comfortable with less, in particular just one anchor at a time.

 

If I was in your position, I would try to get by without a windlass - which saves you some weight, cost and a toe stubber on the foredeck. I'm a big fan of the latest generation of anchors -  Rocna, Spade, Manson, etc. If I've got your boat specs right, Rocna's relatively conservative sizing chart would give you a 22lb anchor. Pair that with 30' of 1/4" HT  chain and a rope rode, and you should have a pretty easily handled anchoring set up which should work for everything except a bad storm. Keep one of the bigger anchors with some chain for storm conditions and as a backup.

 

I know lots of the classic books talk about using two anchors, but for 99% of our cruising I've personally found it unnecessary. In tight spots we tie to the shore with a long line more often than we put out a second anchor. And with respect to holding, we've held comfortably in up to 45 kts so far without thinking about putting a second anchor out for holding reasons. (Caveat: that is on a 48' catamaran with a 33kg Rocna on 200' of 3/8" HT chain).

 

Honestly I never thought twice about going with a smaller anchor.  I bought the "storm" Mantus for the boat and it was the best decision I made the whole summer.  I could see having the regular sized Mantus to use more regularly but the Storm is quite ungainly stored anywhere but on the bow, so I don't know where I'd store the regular one.  The awful part of getting the anchor up was the chain, once all the chain was up it wasn't so difficult to break out the anchor and lift it onboard. 

 

Anyway, I love the anchor.  Having never anchored before, it definitely gave me some "dumbass" wiggle room.  As far as I know I never dragged an inch.  I saw a 30' Cape Dory go sailing by with a fouled Danforth.  Anyway, I don't want to change the size of my anchor, I want to make it more managable.  I will ponder going to lighter chain though.  Currently 5/16".

 

We use a 35-lb Delta as our primary anchor, on 100' of 1/4" HT chain (and a bunch of nylon). It would make your life much easier than 5/16"...



#81 Mark Morwood

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:01 PM

Anyway, I love the anchor.  Having never anchored before, it definitely gave me some "dumbass" wiggle room.  As far as I know I never dragged an inch.  I saw a 30' Cape Dory go sailing by with a fouled Danforth.  Anyway, I don't want to change the size of my anchor, I want to make it more managable.  I will ponder going to lighter chain though.  Currently 5/16".

 

Got it. Just offering options. In that case I would either shorten the chain, change the chain for 1/4", or put it in a windlass - probably electric. The advantage of electric over manual is that if you are single handing, with a suitable switch you can operate the windlass from the cockpit. Note that 1/4" chain is probably undersized in terms of strength for that anchor, but not really an issue for the size of boat. The obvious disadvantage of an electric winch is that it is electric.



#82 sully75

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:57 PM

Anyway, I love the anchor.  Having never anchored before, it definitely gave me some "dumbass" wiggle room.  As far as I know I never dragged an inch.  I saw a 30' Cape Dory go sailing by with a fouled Danforth.  Anyway, I don't want to change the size of my anchor, I want to make it more managable.  I will ponder going to lighter chain though.  Currently 5/16".

 

Got it. Just offering options. In that case I would either shorten the chain, change the chain for 1/4", or put it in a windlass - probably electric. The advantage of electric over manual is that if you are single handing, with a suitable switch you can operate the windlass from the cockpit. Note that 1/4" chain is probably undersized in terms of strength for that anchor, but not really an issue for the size of boat. The obvious disadvantage of an electric winch is that it is electric.

 

Totally thankful for your ideas, don't get me wrong.  Much appreciated.  I hadn't thought about going to smaller chain.  The boat came with 5/16" and the 35lb Mantus is matched on their site with 5/16 so I went with that.  Do you think there would be very significant handling difference between 1/4 and 5/16"?  Seems like they would be more or less similar.

 

I don't have an inboard, so charging currently is limited to a  100watt solar panel.  I may add a small generator at some point.  So I think that eliminates the electric windlass?  I have to admit it seems pretty awesome to be able to pull the anchor from the cockpit though.  And I would use it rarely anyway.  Any thoughts on how much one pull in rough weather on an electric windlass would deplete my batteries?



#83 bpw

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:35 PM

We changed from 1/4 to 5/16 chain in Panama because we could not source 1/4HT there.  It is actually quite a bit harder to haul up the 5/16, we will be going back to 1/4 as soon as we can.  In the meantime, I got stronger and now the 5/16 does not feel so bad.  A bigger bow roller would be a help.

 

I would not worry too much about strength, 1/4HT has a braking strength of somewhere around 10,000 lbs, very few small boats have deck gear that can handle those loads.

 

The way we sail the anchor out is:  Put up main and sheet for a close reach.  As the boats starts moving forward it will pull the chain tight and force a tack.  The trick is to pull in chain while sailing on the tacks and then snub off before the chain loads up again.  Choosing which tack you leave on can be tricky, and I would not practice this in a tight spot.  If you break free on the wrong tack put some chain back out and the anchor should grab again and force a tack.

 

If we are surrounded by other boats but have room behind we will crank in the chain with sails down and then pull up the jib as soon as we break free to spin the boat around.  This is more work but a bit easier to control.

 

You can also put out a light-weight kedge on short scope to hold you in place while messing with the big hook, extra work but very controlled in a tight place.  Hauling up the kedge on line should be pretty easy to do fast.

 

Keep the big Anchor, when you can't motor out of a tight spot when the wind shifts you will be really happy you set the big hook.

 

The 8 inch PVC is attached to our mast support post and a bulkead just to stbd of the mast.  We have a regular deck fitting above it next to the mast so we can feed the chain in from on deck.  Mounting a windlass there would be really awkward so we pull the chain onto deck and then wash it off and feed it below.  When pulling up by hand I often drop it straight into the chain locker while sitting on the housetop.  I have seen a setup with a winch handle cranked windlass on the mast that fed directly to the chain locker, this would scare me with a deck stepped mast though.

 

The windlass is bolted to a couple teak blocks that are bolted to the deck independently.  Allows us to un-bolt the windlass without having any holes in the deck.  They also raise the windlass up off the deck enough to allow the chain to fall onto the deck, I need to kick the pile away every so often.

 

We got our windlass after cruising for a year, so not perfectly integrated with our already built chain locker, but our system works, I like cleaning the chain before stowing.

 

My internet connection here is slow so I cannot post pictures directly, but if you look through the pics in the other link you should be able to see the windlass mount. 



#84 sully75

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:57 PM

Thanks for that.  Great info.

 

Not really relevant to anything, but found this last night.  This has some aspects of my dream boat:

http://www.chrisbray...rt/the_boat.php



#85 bpw

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 11:06 PM

I really like that site, amazing trip on a small boat.  Cool boat as well, when I get back to the states I want to track down some junk rigged boats to sail.  See what they are actually like.

Thanks for that.  Great info.

 

Not really relevant to anything, but found this last night.  This has some aspects of my dream boat:

http://www.chrisbray...rt/the_boat.php



#86 DISHONEST ASSHOLE

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 12:12 AM


I really like that site, amazing trip on a small boat.  Cool boat as well, when I get back to the states I want to track down some junk rigged boats to sail.  See what they are actually like.


Thanks for that.  Great info.
 
Not really relevant to anything, but found this last night.  This has some aspects of my dream boat:
http://www.chrisbray...rt/the_boat.php


Will you have enough electrical power on an outboard setup for a windlass and heavy anchor?

#87 Ishmael

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:38 AM


I really like that site, amazing trip on a small boat.  Cool boat as well, when I get back to the states I want to track down some junk rigged boats to sail.  See what they are actually like.


Thanks for that.  Great info.
 
Not really relevant to anything, but found this last night.  This has some aspects of my dream boat:
http://www.chrisbray...rt/the_boat.php


Will you have enough electrical power on an outboard setup for a windlass and heavy anchor?

 

We have a Lewmar V700, which is about as small as you can go, it's a minimalist's windlass. The breaker is 35A, and when we are dragging in a full load of rope and chain, we want the engine running to provide enough power to the windlass. The windlass runs off the start battery, and if I forget to switch that battery into the charging circuit you can hear the windlass having trouble after about 30 seconds of operation. A manual windlass would be the only way I would go with a restricted charging setup, despite the attraction of controlling everything from the cockpit. There is also the option of bringing the rode in over the stern, that was a favourite trick when I singlehanded boats without a windlass. A stern roller is a lot cheaper than a windlass.



#88 sully75

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:33 AM

Wait how do you bring the anchor in over the stern?  What's the advantage of that.

 

Ok electric windlass is out.  So I'm back to the Lofrans Royal, most likely.  Looking for a used one, I've missed a couple but hopefully one will come up on ebay again.



#89 islandplanet

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 03:21 AM

Jim Baldwin circumnavigated in a Triton twice. He knows a bit about these boats. He's also got some videos on youtube. 

http://atomvoyages.com/atom.html

 

I kept a Triton in Seattle for a few years. Worked well for cruising the San Juan Islands on a small budget. Also used to race on one in Florida. 



#90 sully75

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 06:15 AM

Ish. What's the deal w anchor over the stern? Why would that be easier to pull?

#91 Ishmael

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 03:59 PM

Ish. What's the deal w anchor over the stern? Why would that be easier to pull?

 

It's not necessarily easier to pull, but if you have a roller back there it gives you more options. In a crowded spot you can drop the anchor while in total control in the cockpit, same for hauling the anchor up. For a downwind escape it's a natural.



#92 Py26129

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 05:49 PM

....and, depending on the layout you could use your primaries to help you get the anchor up.



#93 DAC

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:41 AM

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I would avoid a dingy that has to be stored on deck while underway  It's a problem in any monohull that there just isn't a good spot for a tender and having it on deck in anything 30kts or higher just presents something that you're about worried breaking free. Inevitably you have to tie it to something not designed for a high load and it's always in the way.   I know that an inflatable isn't ideal either, but I would advocate one of those new kevlar reenforced inflatable kayaks (fast and easy to handle, but also storable).  You cold store it on deck when in harbour for a few days and then deflate if for longer trips or if you felt the weather would be bad.  That would also free up the space under the boom for a proper life raft if you intend to go offshore.  I would avoid trying to make a tender into a life raft.  



#94 DAC

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:42 AM

Also, I've really enjoyed reading this thread of posts and hearing about your project.  



#95 sully75

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 05:51 PM

Hmmm...I'm pretty dedicated to the dinghy on deck.  For one, I need something ugly that I can throw my anchor into.  Did that a million times this summer.  Towing over long distances doesn't seem like a good idea at all.  I'm also morally opposed to inflatables.  Well, mostly, anyway.  Seems like a lot of people have had them on deck for many thousands of miles, no?  

 

I'm not sure how the kayak as dinghy thing works.  seems wet.



#96 Tucky

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 08:48 PM

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I would avoid a dingy that has to be stored on deck while underway.

 

And I would avoid a dingy dinghy. 

 

Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

 

Up here there is a bumper sticker that says "Old lobstermen never die, they just get a little dinghy".  I like living in a state where people understand that.



#97 kidkodine

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 02:37 AM

BPW

 

" Dont read too much into choice of boat, she is what we had and could afford.  A good boat that we like in many ways but we actually just found a nice aluminum fin keeler in need of lots of work that will be our next boat.  The biggest downside of our current boat is lack of speed to windward and she is a bit slow to manuver in tight places."

 

My God man - is that a Willard?

 

Oops - just saw it was an Atkin - my bad



#98 SakPase

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:56 PM

You might want to take a look for a thread on Sailnet? about a couple and a dog who tried to sail a Triton from California to the Eastern Caribbean. They were somewhere off Columbia when they were hit with a breaking wave which pushed in the hull separating it from the deck for about 15 feet and breaking up much of the interior woodwork. They limped to shelter and basically abandoned the boat. 

 

I've seen that before.  For the record, that is a "West Coast" Triton, built by Aeromarine.  Different cabin layout and different maker than the boats built by Pearson.  But I suppose the right wave for the right boat and things could have been worse.

 

Here's the post:

http://3-knots.com/2...-into-oblivion/

 

Do you think that wouldn't have happened to a comparable boat?  The Triton is supposed to be "tough" but I don't think it's necessarily "well built".  In the sense that they were built pretty sturdy but I don't think the labor was particularly skilled.

 

Regardless though, it's the boat I have.  James Baldwin has been around the world 2x and still has his.  That's a reasonable recomendation.

I am one of the authors of 3-konts.com

Here are my two cents; a 1961 triton is now 55 years old. Many many things can happen to a boat in that time. The damage my boat received could have been caused by hidden damage, there could have been debris in the wave or simple manufacturers error.  The tritons east and west if maintained a reasonable level are tough little boats. A solid triton with a strong rig will take you nearly anywhere (although up wind and against currents they are slow).

Focus on reliability and strength. Beyond that much of it depends on your sailing style and where you plan to go.

 

On our boat the stove, sink and icebox(later fridge that doubled as a chart table) were moved to maximize useful space and the bunks extended under the cockpit. Although we had less sitting area we had good sized galley (for a 28ft boat) with a gimbaled oven, spice rack and a good amout of dry food storage.

 

As for cooking rice I built a riser to move the pot away from the propane flame.

 

I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about my set up.



#99 sully75

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 04:54 PM

Thanks...nice to hear from you.  I have thought a lot about what happened to your boat.  My guess is that the hull/deck joint on these boats might be a weak link.  I'm hoping to redo the interior entirely over the next couple of years and I'm thinking about adding in knees (I think that's what you call them) to tie the hull and deck together.  I'd quite honestly like to be able to go anywhere and feel safe with the boat.  It's likely the only boat that I will be able to afford for the next 5 or so years, maybe longer.  So...it's worth it for me to get it solid.  

 

Are you looking to purchase another boat?

 

I decided against an oven.  I don't bake a lot and the boat is pretty tight as it is.  I just bought a new (2nd hand) Force 10 2 burner non-gimballed propane stove and a sea swing one burner stove.   So at sea I should be able to cook and have hot drinks.  But generally will be at anchor to cook a bigger meal.  The rice riser sounds like a good idea.

 

I just bought an Omnia stove top oven too, so I should be able to back things.  

 

Anyway, thanks for the write up and your thoughts and good luck in further adventures.  



#100 squiby

squiby

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  • Interests:surf sail ski

Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:29 PM

This one work?

 

maggie-gyllenhaal-cleavage.jpg

 

Maggie Gyllenhaal looks good... As a newby in need of tit pic, are public images like this sufficient? I would have assumed it needed to come from one's personal archive. Although that could lead to unfortunate images in some cases...

 

Is there a way to upload images directly from my computer? If so, I don't see it. Or do I have to use and image hosting site and use a URL.

 

Thanks... Newby.






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