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Sail Technology vs LOA


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#1 MidPack

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:23 PM

I've never seen an Opti or a Laser with 3Di/3DL and I've never seen a TP52 with Dacron sails - and wouldn't expect to (just an exaggerated example, I'm aware of class rules). From a sail shape POV (longevity and cost aside) - the stiff "no-stretch" of a 3Di would be an advantage in some conditions, while arguably the slight give of Dacron might be desirable in others, so neither is universally better?

For racing - any thoughts on where high tech sails make sense and where the benefits aren't likely justifiable? 20'? 25'? 30'? 35'? I realize it can't be a hard LOA crossover, and it may be Dacron for small racers, mid tech sails for mid size club racers and high tech sails for large Grand Prix racers. And it probably depends on local winds too (ie, San Francisco vs small inland lakes).

Clumsily framed on my part maybe (but not sure how to improve the OP), so please express your thoughts in whatever terms you're comfortable with...

#2 tikipete

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:37 PM

DUCK AND COVER!



#3 slug zitski

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:43 PM

Stitched panel sails are expensive to build...labour. Hand made

Laminated sails are less labour intensive...like popping plastic boats out of a mold

#4 Moonduster

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:46 PM

Laser class rules require that you buy a class sail. Most one design class dinghys have the same approach. Most other one-designs have severe restrictions on sail construction, all in an effort to reduce the benefits of a fat wallet and create a more level playing field.

 

Of course, nothing can stop people from spending $10K per season on bottom prep.



#5 BobJ

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:04 PM

Up to 28-30' I think a Dacron main is fine for most of us weekend hacks.  You really need a lower stretch solution for a headsail though.

 

A better answer requires looking beyond LOA.  My boat is 30' but has a relatively tall rig.  Here on SF Bay I stretched out a Dacron main pretty quickly.  I've used 3DL's (club-racing level) since, and they've been much better.  Taffeta on at least one side solves the longevity concerns.



#6 Flyer32445

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:05 PM

3dis of the j88 were fantastic and felt right from a weight stand point also gives your more range so i would opt for them Have a dimension flex aramid jib on our sea sprite 23 works really we'll not too much more than polyester and has lasted well two plus seasons

#7 us7070

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 11:55 PM

My windsurfers have pretty high tech sails, and they are only ~8ft long.

 

If you want a rule.., i would think in terms of righting moment

 

you probably want less deformable sails, as the load increases.

 

loads on different boats are mostly determined by their varying righting moment - a stiff boat stands up, and the loads increase, where as a boat that lacks stiffness will heel, limiting the loads that can develop.

 

so some ratio like :   righting moment at 1degree / sail area

 

might be a start

 

windsurfers have pretty high righting moment relative to their sail area.., as do  high performance dinghies and so on up to high performance keel boats.

 

tender keel boats - like narrow traditional keel boats will have a low RM/SA ratio, and would benefit less from high tech sails.



#8 MidPack

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:25 PM

3dis of the j88 were fantastic and felt right from a weight stand point also gives your more range so i would opt for the.

In what wind conditions?

Thanks BobJ & us7070, good thoughts...

#9 Bump-n-Grind

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 04:41 PM

interesting question.

 

J35

 

I just got almost 4 full seasons out of a Dacron main from north. This thing survived Wed nights (Apr-Oct) and rather full season of weekend stuff.

And I'd still be content to use it here on Wed nights. but it's a pain to switch them out.

I will say this in praise of the sails, I saw no loss in performance when we switched to Dacron Main. none..

in fact, my main trimmers found it easier to trim correctly than the brand new 3DL I had built when I bought the boat.

We always had good boat speed against the other J35's around here.

We suffered from inconsistent crew attendance and tactical brain farts by me.

 

Over the same period I've burned thru 3 or 4 3DL #1's.

 

I think a Dacron sail might  last a bit longer but not with the same performance.

The lamanate headsails really are faster out of the box and hold their shape longer than dacron in terms of deformation from wind loading.

However they just cannot survive the beating they take smacking against the rig and lifelines.

 

My #3 laminate sails hold up a lot longer since they don't suffer nearly as much abuse smackin up against the rig and lifelines.

 

 

my not directly answer your questions but may provide a couple data points from the 35' range



#10 armac

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:16 PM

Different take on method to answer this question.

Find a sailmaker you trust and can work with and really, really listen to what they say, especially if they actually make sails (instead of ordering them from China).

A good sailmaker has seen most of it if not all of it before, and will guide you in the right direction. Let it happen.

#11 notallthere

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:32 PM

Different take on method to answer this question.

Find a sailmaker you trust and can work with and really, really listen to what they say, especially if they actually make sails (instead of ordering them from China).

A good sailmaker has seen most of it if not all of it before, and will guide you in the right direction. Let it happen.

 

^Sound advice

 

As a sailmaker, it really depends on each customers needs as well as the boats characteristics and size. I would quote 2 very different inventories for  the same 2 ~Beneteau 40.7's~ depending on what the needs and plans of the individuals purchasing and using the sails tells me before we start discussing anything else.



#12 MidPack

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:37 PM

Different take on method to answer this question.Find a sailmaker you trust and can work with and really, really listen to what they say, especially if they actually make sails (instead of ordering them from China).A good sailmaker has seen most of it if not all of it before, and will guide you in the right direction. Let it happen.


Wish I could, but when a sailmaker and another non-sailmaker both with equally impressive sailing resumes disagree? Sailmaker is entitled to make a living, so I wouldn't blame them for up selling. That's why I was hoping for other insights here, though for all I know some replies are from sailmakers...

#13 notallthere

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:27 PM

Different take on method to answer this question.Find a sailmaker you trust and can work with and really, really listen to what they say, especially if they actually make sails (instead of ordering them from China).A good sailmaker has seen most of it if not all of it before, and will guide you in the right direction. Let it happen.


Wish I could, but when a sailmaker and another non-sailmaker both with equally impressive sailing resumes disagree? Sailmaker is entitled to make a living, so I wouldn't blame them for up selling. That's why I was hoping for other insights here, though for all I know some replies are from sailmakers...

 

Making a living in a sport as small and interconnected as ours means not selling someone something they do not need. The single most important word that I don't hear enough when customers are considering options is "Value". There are times when best value is white triangle from internet sailoft, but most other times, value is somewhere between that and a full carbon sail as seen on all the glossy pics of Grand Prix boats worldwide. A good sailmaker will discuss the options that he/she feels best support the customers needs and know that that guy will tell all of his dock neighbors what a great experience it was. 



#14 Flyer32445

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 03:12 AM

Sail the 88 with 3dis across the range 8 knots - 25 knots good all the time

#15 MidPack

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 12:15 PM

Sail the 88 with 3dis across the range 8 knots - 25 knots good all the time

We face a lot of racing at less than 8 knots in July & Aug. While we see 25 knots and (much) more from tIme to time, we average about 12 knots over our season. I wonder how 3Di's will do in light air vs other construction sails...

#16 us7070

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 02:44 PM

I sail on a 40fter that i sail on got a new 3di LT1 this past summer - i think it's the 780, but don't remember for sure.., maybe it's the 870.., i know it's got carbon in it...

 

anyway, it sure seems like a nice light air sail to me - it is fully powered in about 8kts TWS.

 

the boat didn't have a true LT1 before this, so I can't really say it's faster than a non-3di sail, but there is certainly no problem with it.

 

the sail looks great after one season, and it was sailed pretty overpowered a few times.

 

hopefully someone with more experience can give you better info.



#17 quasi-expert

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 05:28 PM

My windsurfers have pretty high tech sails, and they are only ~8ft long.

 

If you want a rule.., i would think in terms of righting moment

 

you probably want less deformable sails, as the load increases.

 

loads on different boats are mostly determined by their varying righting moment - a stiff boat stands up, and the loads increase, where as a boat that lacks stiffness will heel, limiting the loads that can develop.

 

so some ratio like :   righting moment at 1degree / sail area

 

might be a start

 

windsurfers have pretty high righting moment relative to their sail area.., as do  high performance dinghies and so on up to high performance keel boats.

 

tender keel boats - like narrow traditional keel boats will have a low RM/SA ratio, and would benefit less from high tech sails.

 

good idea in general but I would rather take the max. RM inside heel angle range a particular boat sails in. The old traditional boats may not have a high RM @ 1deg but @ 20-30deg.



#18 us7070

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:40 PM

My windsurfers have pretty high tech sails, and they are only ~8ft long.

 

If you want a rule.., i would think in terms of righting moment

 

you probably want less deformable sails, as the load increases.

 

loads on different boats are mostly determined by their varying righting moment - a stiff boat stands up, and the loads increase, where as a boat that lacks stiffness will heel, limiting the loads that can develop.

 

so some ratio like :   righting moment at 1degree / sail area

 

might be a start

 

windsurfers have pretty high righting moment relative to their sail area.., as do  high performance dinghies and so on up to high performance keel boats.

 

tender keel boats - like narrow traditional keel boats will have a low RM/SA ratio, and would benefit less from high tech sails.

 

good idea in general but I would rather take the max. RM inside heel angle range a particular boat sails in. The old traditional boats may not have a high RM @ 1deg but @ 20-30deg.

 

probably nearly every boat has a higher RM at 20deg than 1deg..

 

nevertheless, the stress on the sail while sailing is going to be higher on a modern race boat than on an older design - because of their greater stiffness.



#19 EdFontana

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 02:16 AM

Lots of good ideas here... My experience is rig loads are directly related to how easily the boat planes.  Boats that are locked into hull speed see really high "static" loads. Cloth distortion loads are related to apparent wind. What is the average apparent wind for the vessel? 

 

Heavy dacron makes sense for cruisers where the handling may be the biggest wear factor. 

High tech makes sense where apparent wind distortion is problematic.

 

Just guessing.



#20 Estar

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 12:36 PM

Three factors:

1. Righting moment (note to the OP, this generally increase with boat size)

2. Aspect ratio

3. Crew trim skill

In racing, fancy sails are really "a prisoners delemna". If the other guy does it, you have to; but if you both agree not to, you can have just as good racing at lower cost.

There is a break point . . . . When the loads are such that in Dacron you need a two ply leach it is pretty clearly time to go laminate.

#21 The Winner

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 01:23 PM

This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape. 

 

Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.

 

Nice boat shame about the sails.



#22 Estar

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 03:01 PM



In racing, fancy sails are really "a prisoners delemna". If the other guy does it, you have to; but if you both agree not to, you can have just as good racing at lower cost.

 

 

 

This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class.

 


Pretty much what I already said, just more colorful language.

 

It's a spending arm's race, unless the class agrees to control it.  And frankly, generally, sailing as a sport has done poorly at standing up to the sail makers and helping the owners minimize the arms race (less well than other equipment sports).

 

That all said - great sailors with shitty sails will always beat poor sailors with fancy sails.



#23 Estar

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 03:01 PM



In racing, fancy sails are really "a prisoners delemna". If the other guy does it, you have to; but if you both agree not to, you can have just as good racing at lower cost.

 

 

 

This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class.

 


Pretty much what I already said, just more colorful language.

 

It's a spending arm's race, unless the class agrees to control it.  And frankly, generally, sailing as a sport has done poorly at standing up to the sail makers and helping the owners minimize the arms race (less well than other equipment sports). And the sail makers seem to be very short sighted, trying to sell more expensive sails today, while longer term driving owners out of the sport (or to boat downsizing).

 

That all said - great sailors with shitty sails will always beat poor sailors with fancy sails.



#24 The Winner

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 03:20 PM

I tend to look at it differently. As an experienced amateur with good sails I at least have a fair chance and can be close enough to learn what those cats up front are up to and maybe even steal a couple. Without decent rags you aren't even in the game. We enjoy the service and knowledge we get from the sailmaker in sail development and rig setup. How do you know that your #1 ap has to much draft? You dont till you build a flatter one and give it a go. You get what you pay for. 



#25 us7070

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 03:20 PM

There are big boat classes with sail limitations 

 

The sail program for the J/44 class seems to have been pretty successful.

 

The Swan 42 was maybe not as successful, but i guess it helps.

 

The Melges 32 - I heard people are buying new boats when they think they need new sails.



#26 MidPack

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:28 PM

This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape. 
 
Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.
 
Nice boat shame about the sails.

Good to know that spending is all there is to competitive sails in all conditions whether you're racing a 10-footer or a 100-footer, displacement or planing, one design or handicap, pro or club. And that you know more than Dave Ullman and some other sailors with known sailing resumes have won consistently with Dacron against more exotic sails in world class fleets. Thanks!

#27 The Winner

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:43 PM

This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape. 
 
Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.
 
Nice boat shame about the sails.

Good to know that spending is all there is to competitive sails in all conditions whether you're racing a 10-footer or a 100-footer, displacement or planing, one design or handicap, pro or club. And that you know more than Dave Ullman and some other sailors with known sailing resumes have won consistently with Dacron against more exotic sails in world class fleets. Thanks!

I think you will find that Dave Ullman uses Dacron in classes that require its use. I also think you will find that after the regatta someone purchases those one regatta old sails like clockwork. You are welcome. Maybe you should look into making your own out of tyvec. I hear you can get a good deal on a whole roll.



#28 The Winner

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:50 PM

This is a RC sailboat by the way

 

 

wheeler23.jpg



#29 The Winner

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 05:05 PM

This one is pretty sweet as well. Bottom line is sail design and construction is always moving forward and to be competitive you need to keep up. In Dacron the shape is going to go south faster than other solutions and need to be replaced sooner. Period there is no free lunch in race sails other than trying to take as good of care of em as you can. I also believe that 3di or some other flexible composite once its developed more will will be the end all for cruisers as well and be the end of laminated sails as we know it.

 

t50cf1a.jpg



#30 MidPack

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 05:21 PM



This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape. 
 
Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.
 
Nice boat shame about the sails.

Good to know that spending is all there is to competitive sails in all conditions whether you're racing a 10-footer or a 100-footer, displacement or planing, one design or handicap, pro or club. And that you know more than Dave Ullman and some other sailors with known sailing resumes have won consistently with Dacron against more exotic sails in world class fleets. Thanks!
I think you will find that Dave Ullman uses Dacron in classes that require its use. That's profound, seriously? I also think you will find that after the regatta someone purchases those one regatta old sails like clockwork. You are welcome. Maybe you should look into making your own out of tyvec. I hear you can get a good deal on a whole roll.

Other sailmakers build their Melges 24 mainsails out of laminate material, but the Ullman Sails Melges mainsail uses woven Dacron, which has proven to be fastest and easiest to use across the wind range.

http://www.ullmansai..._&_Pricing.html
You are welcome.

#31 The Winner

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 05:28 PM

 

 



This thread is about as stupid as it gets as far a racing is concerned. Like trying to make yourself feel good about being a tight ass while racing boats. You might feel good but you wont win much. If you want to be competitive on a regular basis you are going to have to spend money on sails and i would render a guess that if you are in a class that uses Dacron or other low tech shite like Pentex you are going to getting sails every year to be at the top of the class. There isn't really a free lunch in the sail world shape wise so if you cant afford the sail program you probably own too much boat. Kind of like tires for the car. Buy the shitty 40,000 mile model get a shitty ride and need tires in 30. Buy the 80,000 Michelins get a great ride and maybe make it to 90. Same goes for sail shape. 
 
Dacron on a brand new J88 that is going to be used as a race boat is kinda like putting pump gas in a top fuel funny car. Its still a funny car maybe just not quite so much.
 
Nice boat shame about the sails.

Good to know that spending is all there is to competitive sails in all conditions whether you're racing a 10-footer or a 100-footer, displacement or planing, one design or handicap, pro or club. And that you know more than Dave Ullman and some other sailors with known sailing resumes have won consistently with Dacron against more exotic sails in world class fleets. Thanks!
I think you will find that Dave Ullman uses Dacron in classes that require its use. That's profound, seriously? I also think you will find that after the regatta someone purchases those one regatta old sails like clockwork. You are welcome. Maybe you should look into making your own out of tyvec. I hear you can get a good deal on a whole roll.

>Other sailmakers build their Melges 24 mainsails out of laminate material, but the Ullman Sails Melges mainsail uses woven Dacron, which has proven to be fastest and easiest to use across the wind range.

http://www.ullmansai..._&_Pricing.html
You are welcome.

 

And are replaced more often. You just are looking for anything you can cling to justify buying a Dacron sail. Go for it and as that draft creeps aft and gets deeper every year much the same as your position in the fleet  just keep telling yourself you saved money.






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