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#1 NorCalLaser

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:20 PM

thoughts?  how about a coherent reasoned discussion on this breed? no need for childish personal attacks...

 

http://www.sfgate.co...and-4976857.php

Pit bull chews off owner's arm, hand

WILTON -- In a scene out of a horror movie, a pit bull -- apparently without provocation -- attacked its owner, tearing out one of her arms and ripping off her other hand.

The victim, Anne Murray, 56, was recovering at Norwalk Hospital, her son Matthew Murray said Tuesday.

"She's better -- she's awake now," he said. "I don't really know what happened. I just want to stay with her and get her to a full recovery."

The attack at the Murrays' 77 Range Road home happened about 11:30 a.m. Monday. Police Lt. Donald Wakeman said one passing motorist, and then another, stopped because the dog had wandered into the road.

"The first motorist found the dog to be somewhat aggressive, so she retreated to her car," Wakeman said. "And then one of the two motorists heard someone calling for help, so she called 911."

He said the dog in the street was the one that attacked Murray, who was found underneath a vehicle in her driveway, trying to fend off the animal, said Wakeman, the Wilton Police Department spokesman.

The first arriving officer, Capt. John Lynch, determined that the dog was an immediate threat to the victim and others nearby, so he shot and killed the dog, Wakeman said. The pit bull's remains will be tested for rabies at a state laboratory, officials said.

In additional to the loss of a limb and another hand, Murray had bite wounds all over her body, Wakeman said. She was brought by ambulance to Norwalk Hospital, where she was listed in stable condition.

"She lost all of her left arm and a portion of her right arm," he said.

Monday's mauling recalls the 2009 chimpanzee attack on Charla Nash, of Stamford. In that incident she was blinded and horribly mutilated; she later received a face transplant.

But the big difference between that case and Monday's dog attack is that chimpanzees, cute as they may be when they're infants, grow up to be wild animals -- muscular, temperamental and unpredictable ones at that.

Dogs, conversely, have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years, making Monday's attack all the more terrifying.

Still, pit bulls, although they have legions of admirers, have killed and maimed countless times before. The most recent pit bull death occurred last week in Kernersville, N.C., when 25-year-old Katherine Atkins was set upon by her two dogs while she was attempting to feed them. She had owned the dogs since they were puppies, Kernersville police said.

And last month, 5-year-old Jason Ryan, of Baker City, Ore., was set upon by a neighbor's pit bull. He died in the ambulance. In September, two toddlers were mauled to death by pit bulls, one in Colton, Calif., the other in Gilbert, Ariz.

No one was home at Murray's house on Tuesday, but the front yard bore the remains of what must have been a chaotic and gruesome scene.

The driveway was littered with some of the contents of the ambulance that arrived to take Murray to the hospital, including a pillow, a blanket, a blue latex glove, a blister-pack of bandages and an orange biohazard bag.

Also in the driveway was the pit bull's black nylon collar, with tags bearing his name: "Tux" -- for Tuxedo -- a name that was confirmed by police who said the animal was a 2-year-old male.

Range Road is in a neighborhood of tidy suburban homes, but the red house at number 77 has fallen on hard times. The garage door is mostly missing; a picket fence covers the opening. The electricity meter has a shut-off tag affixed to it.

On the front stoop is a large plastic tub, partially filled with water, into which a winter coat was draped. The front yard is covered in brambles and the mailbox hadn't been emptied in days.

Neighbors said they had never met Anne Murray and that the family kept to themselves. Police said she lives with her twin 26-year-old sons.

"Technically, the dog belonged to one of the sons," Wakeman said. "The sons weren't home all the time, so she took care of the dog when they weren't there. Why the dog turned on her, we don't know."

As was the case in the North Carolina tragedy, Tuxedo was part of the family since puppyhood, police said.

Wakeman said the investigation is continuing.

"At this point, we don't know whether criminal charges will be filed," he said.

jburgeson@ctpost.com; 203-330-6403; http://twitter.com/johnburgeson

 



#2 dolphinmaster

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:23 PM

Wow!



#3 Snaggletooth

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:31 PM

Harde to halve a balancede discussione abote them.



#4 NorCalLaser

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:33 PM

agreed snags.  Which is why i will ignore any vile or rude rhetoric in this thread.

 

one interesting point of debate would be-- should cities be allowed, through the democratic process, to ban this breed?



#5 Snaggletooth

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 06:50 PM

Siure I gesse, as loungue it gose throuh prossess. I dointe see the attrcksion, butte we heare plentey of hourrore storey. 



#6 USA190520

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:56 PM

http://m.huffpost.co.../entry/4296456/

#7 Point Break

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:57 PM

Oh boy, here we go again.....

#8 CrushDigital

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:02 PM

I predict anecdotal evidence will abound...on both sides of the debate.



#9 kevlar®

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:53 PM

Yikes. 

 

I like pitbulls. I believe that any dog can be 'trained' to do something like that. Not just pits. They are better equipped. That's for sure. 



#10 DISHONEST ASSHOLE

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 09:56 PM

My black lab has never ripped off my arms.

#11 burndoc

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:07 PM

Covering trauma I would see dog bites. Pit bulls were the only breed I ever saw to puncture skulls while biting.

#12 hard aground

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 10:45 PM

My black lab has never ripped off my arms.

Yet Mr. Asshole. Yet.



#13 kevlar®

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 11:15 PM

My black lab has never ripped off my arms.

 

Pits have the potential to do more damage, but can also be sweethearts. A few friends of mine have them, and they're great. I also like German Sheps. They can be nasty too. 

 

Look at it like raising a kid. You could raise an irresponsible sociopath, or a decent human being. 

 

The nastiest dogs I dealt with were Cocker Spaniels. Inbred and just ignorant nasty shit factories. (I worked in Veterinary for years) 



#14 Tom Ray

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 11:42 PM

Libby is allegedly half pit bull. She's cute when she yawns.

 

libby-yawn.jpg



#15 Heads Up

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 11:55 PM

Pit bulls, rottenwielers, and bull mastiffs are demon dogs. No telling what they will do.

#16 Silverbullet

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:04 AM

Pit bulls, rottenwielers, and bull mastiffs are demon dogs. No telling what they will do.

 

Fixed.  I have nothing but good things to say about Rotties.

 

The reality is it's all about the owners and, to a greater extent, the breeding. 



#17 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:28 AM

The breed itself is not enough information for one to form an opinion from. How the INDIVIDUAL dog was raised, treated and trained is a far more telling fact than the way its ears and muzzle look. 

 

Anyone who doesn't know this, doesn't know dogs, and shouldn't be telling anyone else anything about "breed specific proclivities". 



#18 burndoc

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:39 AM

The breed itself is not enough information for one to form an opinion from. How the INDIVIDUAL dog was raised, treated and trained is a far more telling fact than the way its ears and muzzle look. 
 
Anyone who doesn't know this, doesn't know dogs, and shouldn't be telling anyone else anything about "breed specific proclivities". 


Sorry, I beg to differ. Some dog are better for hunting and some are better for guarding and attack. I have never heard of a poodle attacking and taking off an arm. Unfortunately all dogs will nip at someone if bothered or startled, even family pets.

#19 The Advocate

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:54 AM

Harde to halve a balancede discussione abote them.

I agree Snags.

 

Whilst I agree with the ownership/training/history POV, there are certain breeds I will never own, and a pit bull is one of them.



#20 Point Break

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:01 AM

http://www.dogsbite....itt-clifton.php

#21 Monkey

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:14 AM


Harde to halve a balancede discussione abote them.

I agree Snags.
 
Whilst I agree with the ownership/training/history POV, there are certain breeds I will never own, and a pit bull is one of them.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Not so sure about NorCal's quest though. But hey, at least he made a whole new thread about things he finds scary.

#22 Gouvernail

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:38 AM

Dogs have been selectively bred for centuries.
Newfoundlands pull nets in cold water
Labradors bring back downed birds
Beagles chase but don't catch up to rabbits
Pointers.... Well duh
Bloodhounds sniff
chows protected castles
Huskys pull
Sheepdogs, cattle dogs, border collies help herders
Rat terriers exterminate rats



Pit bulls were bred for the fighting pit. They were selectively bred for centuries to be the most likely to win dog fights.
Success on those fights is determined by being able to chomp down, cause lethal injury, and continue to dominate until the other animal succumbs.

An out of control lab will bring back item after item.
An out of control border collie will bark nip and corral other creatures
Out of control Beagles chase rabbits

When a pit bull simply does what comes naturally, it bites and kills.
It is possible to train a pit bull to be nice but the fact is, pit bulls have been carefully bred to posess all the tools and disposition to attack ruthlessly.


I see a pit bull as I see any other weapon. Pit bulls are not toys. Those who treat pit bulls like toys are often those who get hurt. Those who leave their weapons where others with insufficient skills to handle the weapons may encounter them, can cause extremely dangerous situations or even lethal results.

Pit bulls WERE NOT selectively bred to be family companions.
Pit bulls were bred to successfully compete in killing contests.


Pit fighting is no longer legal on this country. The pit bull has outlived its usefulness as a breed

Given the power to do so:
I would require registration of all pit bulls as lethal weapons ( not arms... You may not infringe the right to bear arms in the USA ) .
I would require all pit bulls, except those in specially equipped zoos, to be neutered
In ten years or so, the only remaining pit bulls would be living in zoos.

The ONLY reason to preserve the breed in those zoos is to have a supply of dogs ready for the day pit fighting is again legalized

#23 Monkey

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:47 AM

Dogs have been selectively bred for centuries.
Newfoundlands pull nets in cold water
Labradors bring back downed birds
Beagles chase but don't catch up to rabbits
Pointers.... Well duh
Bloodhounds sniff
chows protected castles
Huskys pull
Sheepdogs, cattle dogs, border collies help herders
Rat terriers exterminate rats



Pit bulls were bred for the fighting pit. They were selectively bred for centuries to be the most likely to win dog fights.
Success on those fights is determined by being able to chomp down, cause lethal injury, and continue to dominate until the other animal succumbs.

An out of control lab will bring back item after item.
An out of control border collie will bark nip and corral other creatures
Out of control Beagles chase rabbits

When a pit bull simply does what comes naturally, it bites and kills.
It is possible to train a pit bull to be nice but the fact is, pit bulls have been carefully bred to posess all the tools and disposition to attack ruthlessly.


I see a pit bull as I see any other weapon. Pit bulls are not toys. Those who treat pit bulls like toys are often those who get hurt. Those who leave their weapons where others with insufficient skills to handle the weapons may encounter them, can cause extremely dangerous situations or even lethal results.

Pit bulls WERE NOT selectively bred to be family companions.
Pit bulls were bred to successfully compete in killing contests.


Pit fighting is no longer legal on this country. The pit bull has outlived its usefulness as a breed

Given the power to do so:
I would require registration of all pit bulls as lethal weapons ( not arms... You may not infringe the right to bear arms in the USA ) .
I would require all pit bulls, except those in specially equipped zoos, to be neutered
In ten years or so, the only remaining pit bulls would be living in zoos.

The ONLY reason to preserve the breed in those zoos is to have a supply of dogs ready for the day pit fighting is again legalized

Nice rant, but totally full of shit. Pit bulls weren't bred for pit fighting. That's a recent change. Let's not worry about facts though.

#24 Snaggletooth

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:58 AM

Pit bulls were bred for the fighting pit. They were selectively bred for centuries to be the most likely to win dog fights.
Success on those fights is determined by being able to chomp down, cause lethal injury, and continue to dominate until the other animal succumbs.

 

 

I thouht the PB was recente crosseng of Pitt Terriere and Bulle Dog.



#25 Point Break

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:59 AM

There is no doubt the Pit Bull is the leading breed in serious attacks with bad outcomes. It's a statistical reality. However practically it is not the only breed involved. I don't know where or how you'd draw the line if trying to initiate some breed specific controls. I think the only real possibility is to increase the penalty for owners of those breeds that hurt or kill people. Increase it significantly and vigorously prosecute those. That way people who wish to own them can and if they exert the training and responsible ownership required then they can. Perhaps eventually with enough irresponsible owners in prison and forfeiture of everything they own........that owning those breeds won't be so attractive.

The combination of large molosser breeds, including pit bulls, rottweilers, presa canarios, cane corsos, mastiffs, dogo argentinos, fila brasieros, and their mixes:
79% of attacks that induce bodily harm
72% of attacks to children
85% of attack to adults
69% of attacks that result in fatalities
77% that result in maiming

#26 Snaggletooth

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:01 AM

Nice rant, but totally full of shit. Pit bulls weren't bred for pit fighting. That's a recent change. Let's not worry about facts though.

Op asksed foure a disscussione, no neede foure thisse.



#27 Gouvernail

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:10 AM

Let's not worry about facts.

It is hard to have rational discussions when people deny the facts and make disparaging remarks
I am disappointed you are unaware pit bulls have been selectively bred as fighting dogs.
Perhaps you should do some research on the subject before indulging in further commentary.

Thank you

#28 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:26 AM

The breed itself is not enough information for one to form an opinion from. How the INDIVIDUAL dog was raised, treated and trained is a far more telling fact than the way its ears and muzzle look. 
 
Anyone who doesn't know this, doesn't know dogs, and shouldn't be telling anyone else anything about "breed specific proclivities". 


Sorry, I beg to differ. Some dog are better for hunting and some are better for guarding and attack. I have never heard of a poodle attacking and taking off an arm. Unfortunately all dogs will nip at someone if bothered or startled, even family pets.

 

Stay in NJ - you can be comfortable in your insulated perspective, w/out the concern of an experienced perspective causing you to question what you know. 

 

Beg all ya want, brudda - aside from some temperamental differences, most dogs wanta please the people they're near. If those people make the dogs act viciously to gain that approval, it's not the breed's fault. 



#29 Monkey

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:38 AM


Let's not worry about facts.

It is hard to have rational discussions when people deny the facts and make disparaging remarks
I am disappointed you are unaware pit bulls have been selectively bred as fighting dogs.
Perhaps you should do some research on the subject before indulging in further commentary.

Thank you
They certainly have as of recent, but they were originally bread as farm dogs.

#30 Monkey

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:40 AM


Nice rant, but totally full of shit. Pit bulls weren't bred for pit fighting. That's a recent change. Let's not worry about facts though.

Op asksed foure a disscussione, no neede foure thisse.
The OP is a historical crybaby when it comes to scary critters. I don't much care about his requests.

#31 Gouvernail

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:58 AM

Chesapeake guy?? You are right dogs try to please.

But

If you want to get your sled pulled you don't choose a golden over a husky
You don't choose a beagle to be your bird dog
You don't choose a pit bull to be your sheepdog

Those who "know dogs" can tell you why virtually every breed exists.

Grab a few dog books. One Dog advice author after another will tell you how an improperly selected dog will be a likely source of disappointment

If you want to fill a community with friendly playful doggies, you are ill advised to throw pit bulls ( especially males ) into the mix,

#32 Point Break

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:59 AM

People make the mistake of assuming their personal experience is the norm. If you have a well behaved dog from the list of the most dangerous dogs you tend to think that would be the universal experience. My own experience in 36 years of EMS is that the two worst dog bites I saw were from a cocker spaniel and a rot. Both victims were small children. Still the two attacks were very different in characteristics. The spaniel attack was quick and the injuries were facial and horrifying, eye, cheek, nose......devastating. The rot attack was also horrifying injuries but it was a sustained mauling. Without going over the story again because I've already told it here, the dog maintained control of the child and repeatedly attacked. My partner and I rescued the child through distraction and were pursued by the dog as we ran to our rig with the child. It would have caught us but the PD arrived and killed the dog as we ran past them and they ran toward the dog and engaged it. Rots still make me uneasy.

A central issue isn't whether any breed will bite or even which one bites most often. I think the central issue is the characteristics of the attacks and the physiological capability of the animal to do harm.

BTW I never took care of or responded to a Pit Bull attack - ever. Yet they are statistically the most frequent dangerous dog attack with a bad outcome. Personal anecdotal experiences do not reflect the true experience.

#33 Gouvernail

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:28 AM





Let's not worry about facts.

It is hard to have rational discussions when people deny the facts and make disparaging remarks
I am disappointed you are unaware pit bulls have been selectively bred as fighting dogs.
Perhaps you should do some research on the subject before indulging in further commentary.

Thank you
They certainly have as of recent, but they were originally bread as farm dogs.
Whose job on the farm was????

Winning the fights held among the various farmhand's dogs.


Check your history. The farmhand's fighting dogs were a source of problems, especially when one would get loose among the sheep or goats.

Dogs are great!!! Dogs have served mankind since forever. Why this denial of the various pot bull traits we worked so hard to develop??
Pit bulls are fabulous examples of successful selective breeding.
If my purpose in owning a dog was to win dog fights I would own a pit bull.

#34 GHarbor2

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:41 AM

They should be illegal to possess.

Next topic, please.

#35 Gouvernail

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:50 AM

They should be illegal to possess.

Next topic, please.


What do you think about young women with great bodies who insist on dressing in revealing outfits

#36 GHarbor2

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:52 AM

They should be illegal to possess.
Next topic, please.


What do you think about young women with great bodies who insist on dressing in revealing outfits

I'm all for them.

Next.

#37 CrushDigital

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:19 AM

They should be illegal to possess.
Next topic, please.


What do you think about young women with great bodies who insist on dressing in revealing outfits

I'm all for them.
Next.

If nothing else, the man is decisive.

#38 PBO

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:22 AM

I really don't see the attraction of owning a PB. If even well trained, socialised & cared for breeds have the potential to behave unpredictably - then surely a PB is tempting fate? I like my companions (not working dogs) to come with a better social reputation, temperament & behavioural tendencies

I understand many PB's end up living in cages. That seems cruel to an essentially social animal. In my view it would be better to destroy these problem animals rather than have backyard ornaments

#39 burndoc

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:14 PM

 

The breed itself is not enough information for one to form an opinion from. How the INDIVIDUAL dog was raised, treated and trained is a far more telling fact than the way its ears and muzzle look. 
 
Anyone who doesn't know this, doesn't know dogs, and shouldn't be telling anyone else anything about "breed specific proclivities". 


Sorry, I beg to differ. Some dog are better for hunting and some are better for guarding and attack. I have never heard of a poodle attacking and taking off an arm. Unfortunately all dogs will nip at someone if bothered or startled, even family pets.

 

Stay in NJ - you can be comfortable in your insulated perspective, w/out the concern of an experienced perspective causing you to question what you know. 

 

Beg all ya want, brudda - aside from some temperamental differences, most dogs wanta please the people they're near. If those people make the dogs act viciously to gain that approval, it's not the breed's fault. 

 Did I strike a nerve in the tranquil waters? I just live in NJ, I work in North Philly where the breed is common, which is why i have seen injuries from them more than other dogs. Also more of them are found dead in bags around here than other breeds. I never said kill them off as I can see you are a dog person and take offense. Some animals are just more dangerous than others. I had a friend attacked on a play ground in NJ and lost a part of his lip by a large breed other than a pit bull. Many of these animals are strong and also may think they are playing. However people should be in control of their pets. I am sure lawyers sue owners and not their dogs.



#40 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:28 PM

 

 

The breed itself is not enough information for one to form an opinion from. How the INDIVIDUAL dog was raised, treated and trained is a far more telling fact than the way its ears and muzzle look. 
 
Anyone who doesn't know this, doesn't know dogs, and shouldn't be telling anyone else anything about "breed specific proclivities". 


Sorry, I beg to differ. Some dog are better for hunting and some are better for guarding and attack. I have never heard of a poodle attacking and taking off an arm. Unfortunately all dogs will nip at someone if bothered or startled, even family pets.

 

Stay in NJ - you can be comfortable in your insulated perspective, w/out the concern of an experienced perspective causing you to question what you know. 

 

Beg all ya want, brudda - aside from some temperamental differences, most dogs wanta please the people they're near. If those people make the dogs act viciously to gain that approval, it's not the breed's fault. 

 Did I strike a nerve in the tranquil waters? I just live in NJ, I work in North Philly where the breed is common, which is why i have seen injuries from them more than other dogs. Also more of them are found dead in bags around here than other breeds. I never said kill them off as I can see you are a dog person and take offense. Some animals are just more dangerous than others. I had a friend attacked on a play ground in NJ and lost a part of his lip by a large breed other than a pit bull. Many of these animals are strong and also may think they are playing. However people should be in control of their pets. I am sure lawyers sue owners and not their dogs.

 

No sir - no nerves struck, other than having to tolerate views formed from speculation and repeating what "I've heard" every time I visit relatives in Camden County, NJ, where the only wildlife they see are the squirrels in the park (surprised there's not yet a leash law for THEM!  :-)  ).  Unfortunately, your neighborhood is close to a large demographic of the types of folks who intentionally breed/train these poor pups for fighting, mistreat them, and willfully turn them into vicious, anti-social beasts.  *any* dog can snap and bite someone, and likewise any dog, irrespective of breed, can be a most loyal caring friend.  

 

One of my best friends has a pair of Boxer/PitBull mutts, and they are the friendliest, goofiest, slobberingest bags of bones and brawn that you'd ever want to be around. The only time I can see on of them biting someone is if you fell asleep holding a chicken leg, and they nipped your fingers while they sneaked a bite.  Kids climb all over 'em, and they just roll over to have their bellies scratched.  

 

I disagree emphatically with any characterization of a particular breed as having such undesirable traits as to warrant being outlawed. It's a knee-jerk reaction, founded from a desire to do something w/out first learning what that something ought to be. Some dogs indeed are bred to accentuate certain behavioral attributes. W/R/T Pit Bulls - any that have been trained/tortured into fighting are usually lost causes, and usually can't be re-acclimated, and need to be put down.  A sibling from that same litter who went to a home w/loving people could be as good a pet as the TacoBell Chihuahua.  My point is that it's the behavior of the people that have 'em, moreso than the breeds that needs to be addressed.  Your thoughts are welcome. 

 

BTW - how do you like being able to get IN to NJ for free, but, having to pay to get out? :-) 



#41 burndoc

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:46 PM

 

 

 

The breed itself is not enough information for one to form an opinion from. How the INDIVIDUAL dog was raised, treated and trained is a far more telling fact than the way its ears and muzzle look. 
 
Anyone who doesn't know this, doesn't know dogs, and shouldn't be telling anyone else anything about "breed specific proclivities". 


Sorry, I beg to differ. Some dog are better for hunting and some are better for guarding and attack. I have never heard of a poodle attacking and taking off an arm. Unfortunately all dogs will nip at someone if bothered or startled, even family pets.

 

Stay in NJ - you can be comfortable in your insulated perspective, w/out the concern of an experienced perspective causing you to question what you know. 

 

Beg all ya want, brudda - aside from some temperamental differences, most dogs wanta please the people they're near. If those people make the dogs act viciously to gain that approval, it's not the breed's fault. 

 Did I strike a nerve in the tranquil waters? I just live in NJ, I work in North Philly where the breed is common, which is why i have seen injuries from them more than other dogs. Also more of them are found dead in bags around here than other breeds. I never said kill them off as I can see you are a dog person and take offense. Some animals are just more dangerous than others. I had a friend attacked on a play ground in NJ and lost a part of his lip by a large breed other than a pit bull. Many of these animals are strong and also may think they are playing. However people should be in control of their pets. I am sure lawyers sue owners and not their dogs.

 

No sir - no nerves struck, other than having to tolerate views formed from speculation and repeating what "I've heard" every time I visit relatives in Camden County, NJ, where the only wildlife they see are the squirrels in the park (surprised there's not yet a leash law for THEM!  :-)  ).  Unfortunately, your neighborhood is close to a large demographic of the types of folks who intentionally breed/train these poor pups for fighting, mistreat them, and willfully turn them into vicious, anti-social beasts.  *any* dog can snap and bite someone, and likewise any dog, irrespective of breed, can be a most loyal caring friend.  

 

One of my best friends has a pair of Boxer/PitBull mutts, and they are the friendliest, goofiest, slobberingest bags of bones and brawn that you'd ever want to be around. The only time I can see on of them biting someone is if you fell asleep holding a chicken leg, and they nipped your fingers while they sneaked a bite.  Kids climb all over 'em, and they just roll over to have their bellies scratched.  

 

I disagree emphatically with any characterization of a particular breed as having such undesirable traits as to warrant being outlawed. It's a knee-jerk reaction, founded from a desire to do something w/out first learning what that something ought to be. Some dogs indeed are bred to accentuate certain behavioral attributes. W/R/T Pit Bulls - any that have been trained/tortured into fighting are usually lost causes, and usually can't be re-acclimated, and need to be put down.  A sibling from that same litter who went to a home w/loving people could be as good a pet as the TacoBell Chihuahua.  My point is that it's the behavior of the people that have 'em, moreso than the breeds that needs to be addressed.  Your thoughts are welcome. 

 

BTW - how do you like being able to get IN to NJ for free, but, having to pay to get out? :-) 

 I never stated they should be outlawed. I originally stated some of the worse injuries i have seen are from pitbulls. I do believe a little in nature and nurture. Dogs used for fighting and guarding are by nature more aggressive. If we differ on this point we do. I have friends were one sibling went down the wrong path even though they were raised in the same household. I don't know why. My brother in law has a boxer breed. He is all muscle, one day when the niece was running he ran into her and she went down, much the same way it would probable take down prey, didn't bite and i dont think it was on purpose, and yes she and her cousins climb all over him.

Part of an owner's responsibility is to have their animal in control around others. I grew up with animals and worked at a truck terminal that had a doberman for guarding and never got bite. Then again i would never startle the dog either. Some people are not animal wise and get nervous around dogs. Unfortunately not all owners semm to know this.

 

As for the exit tax, I like my neighborhood, kids have good schools and i am 10 minutes from my boat in the Delaware, things could be worse.



#42 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 04:20 PM

<SNIP>

 I never stated they should be outlawed. I originally stated some of the worse injuries i have seen are from pitbulls. I do believe a little in nature and nurture. Dogs used for fighting and guarding are by nature more aggressive. If we differ on this point we do. I have friends were one sibling went down the wrong path even though they were raised in the same household. I don't know why. My brother in law has a boxer breed. He is all muscle, one day when the niece was running he ran into her and she went down, much the same way it would probable take down prey, didn't bite and i dont think it was on purpose, and yes she and her cousins climb all over him.

Part of an owner's responsibility is to have their animal in control around others. I grew up with animals and worked at a truck terminal that had a doberman for guarding and never got bite. Then again i would never startle the dog either. Some people are not animal wise and get nervous around dogs. Unfortunately not all owners semm to know this.

 

As for the exit tax, I like my neighborhood, kids have good schools and i am 10 minutes from my boat in the Delaware, things could be worse.

 

AMEN! 

 

My apologies - I honestly thought that you were on the "ban the breed" bandwagon, and I'm sorry for that misunderstanding. 

 

Headed up to Haddon Heights on Wednesday to cook for the in-laws.  Yippee.... At least I'll be able to sneak away and catch a show w/my wife at the Kimmel Center Friday night.  Bringing 2 pups - a pug, and a lab/chow that someone dumped in our woods about 8 yrs ago.  They're both useless, but, they make my wife happy.  



#43 burndoc

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:25 PM

<SNIP>

 I never stated they should be outlawed. I originally stated some of the worse injuries i have seen are from pitbulls. I do believe a little in nature and nurture. Dogs used for fighting and guarding are by nature more aggressive. If we differ on this point we do. I have friends were one sibling went down the wrong path even though they were raised in the same household. I don't know why. My brother in law has a boxer breed. He is all muscle, one day when the niece was running he ran into her and she went down, much the same way it would probable take down prey, didn't bite and i dont think it was on purpose, and yes she and her cousins climb all over him.

Part of an owner's responsibility is to have their animal in control around others. I grew up with animals and worked at a truck terminal that had a doberman for guarding and never got bite. Then again i would never startle the dog either. Some people are not animal wise and get nervous around dogs. Unfortunately not all owners semm to know this.

 

As for the exit tax, I like my neighborhood, kids have good schools and i am 10 minutes from my boat in the Delaware, things could be worse.

 

AMEN! 

 

My apologies - I honestly thought that you were on the "ban the breed" bandwagon, and I'm sorry for that misunderstanding. 

 

Headed up to Haddon Heights on Wednesday to cook for the in-laws.  Yippee.... At least I'll be able to sneak away and catch a show w/my wife at the Kimmel Center Friday night.  Bringing 2 pups - a pug, and a lab/chow that someone dumped in our woods about 8 yrs ago.  They're both useless, but, they make my wife happy.  

 Have a good one. I am a little north in Moorestown. Staying around the area as i am on this holiday. Don't forget your exit tax.



#44 NorCalLaser

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 06:40 PM

Bow monkey has predictably driven the discussion towards personal attacks and LOL, yes, I am indeed a cry baby about "scary critters".  Its a helluva a persuasive argument BM... are you a lawyer?

 

anywho, back on topic--

does anyone have a link to any legitimate research re: the historical breeding purposes of the PB?



#45 familysailor

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 07:45 PM

Dogs have been selectively bred for centuries.
Newfoundlands pull nets in cold water
Labradors bring back downed birds
Beagles chase but don't catch up to rabbits
Pointers.... Well duh
Bloodhounds sniff
chows protected castles
Huskys pull
Sheepdogs, cattle dogs, border collies help herders
Rat terriers exterminate rats



Pit bulls were bred for the fighting pit. They were selectively bred for centuries to be the most likely to win dog fights.
Success on those fights is determined by being able to chomp down, cause lethal injury, and continue to dominate until the other animal succumbs.

An out of control lab will bring back item after item.
An out of control border collie will bark nip and corral other creatures
Out of control Beagles chase rabbits

When a pit bull simply does what comes naturally, it bites and kills.
It is possible to train a pit bull to be nice but the fact is, pit bulls have been carefully bred to posess all the tools and disposition to attack ruthlessly.


I see a pit bull as I see any other weapon. Pit bulls are not toys. Those who treat pit bulls like toys are often those who get hurt. Those who leave their weapons where others with insufficient skills to handle the weapons may encounter them, can cause extremely dangerous situations or even lethal results.

Pit bulls WERE NOT selectively bred to be family companions.
Pit bulls were bred to successfully compete in killing contests.


Pit fighting is no longer legal on this country. The pit bull has outlived its usefulness as a breed

Given the power to do so:
I would require registration of all pit bulls as lethal weapons ( not arms... You may not infringe the right to bear arms in the USA ) .
I would require all pit bulls, except those in specially equipped zoos, to be neutered
In ten years or so, the only remaining pit bulls would be living in zoos.

The ONLY reason to preserve the breed in those zoos is to have a supply of dogs ready for the day pit fighting is again legalized

Nice rant, but totally full of shit. Pit bulls weren't bred for pit fighting. That's a recent change. Let's not worry about facts though.

Um... YOU appear to be wrong, link: http://www.dogsbite....-bull-myths.php

 

Thanks to Point Break for the original link to this site. The study he posted shows that Pit Bulls and Pit bull mix total less than 5% of the dog population, but are responsible for approximately 69% attacks resulting in bodily harm, 58% of deaths, 69% of maimings.



#46 jetboy

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:14 PM

I've probably written this half a dozen times, but this is my take;

 

There is practically every trait you can breed into a dog available in some breed or combination of breeds.  Pitbulls have a unique genetic predisposition to aggression.  There is nothing else about a pitbull that you cannot get in another dog.  There are smarter, more loyal, faster, bigger, smaller, slower, stupider, dog breeds.  Therefore it can only be assumed that the reason you choose a pitbull is because you affirmatively want the aggressiveness.  You do not choose a pitbull in spite of that trait unless you are really fucking stupid and have no idea whatsoever about dog breeds and tendencies thereof - in which case you are not ready for a dog.  The result of this is that people who have pitbulls want aggressive dogs.  So you end up with the worst owners with the most dangerous dogs.

 

As an aside this does not apply to rescue dogs.  The motives in that situation are often entirely different.



#47 On the Hard

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:38 PM

Well here is my not well researched $0.02

 

The majority of dog attacks creating newsworthy injuries appear to be pit bulls.

The stats cited in the study linked above demonstrate to me that this is indeed a problem

Tux may very well have been a perfectly well behaved doggie until it ripped the arm off its mama. They do have a history of unpredictability.

 

But, it doesn't mean that all, or even most, or even a very large percentage of pit bulls are dangerous dogs! I get where the defenders say, "Not my dog! Don't ban my Dag! My dog is a slobbering sweetie"

 

Practically, at least in my neck of the woods, there are probably more partial pit bulls than pure breds. How do you decide where to draw the line? When is a mix forcibly neutered?  Because it "looks like a pit bull" to the animal control officer?

 

At the risk of being a fence sitting weenie, I acknowledge there's a problem but can't envision a workable solution. So rather than advocate an unworkable solution, I just don't do anything (other than keep my distance).



#48 jetboy

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:56 PM

Well here is my not well researched $0.02

 

The majority of dog attacks creating newsworthy injuries appear to be pit bulls.

The stats cited in the study linked above demonstrate to me that this is indeed a problem

Tux may very well have been a perfectly well behaved doggie until it ripped the arm off its mama. They do have a history of unpredictability.

 

But, it doesn't mean that all, or even most, or even a very large percentage of pit bulls are dangerous dogs! I get where the defenders say, "Not my dog! Don't ban my Dag! My dog is a slobbering sweetie"

 

Practically, at least in my neck of the woods, there are probably more partial pit bulls than pure breds. How do you decide where to draw the line? When is a mix forcibly neutered?  Because it "looks like a pit bull" to the animal control officer?

 

At the risk of being a fence sitting weenie, I acknowledge there's a problem but can't envision a workable solution. So rather than advocate an unworkable solution, I just don't do anything (other than keep my distance).

DNA tests are only about $50.  If your dog looks like a pitbull, you have to pay $50 for a DNA test.  If you can't afford $50, it gets fixed (you can't afford puppies). If it's more than 25% PB, it gets fixed. Easy peasy.  - around where I live they will spay or neuter pitbulls for free anytime.

 

Ever go to a dog event?  90% of the unneutered males are pitbulls.  Coincidence that 25% of shelter dogs are PB or PB mix?   If we could stop the breeding of one breed we could solve a huge portion of the shelter dog problem.



#49 On the Hard

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:27 PM

There certainly seem to be a lot of tough, macho dudes who own Pit Bulls. Compensating for something I guess

 

If we could fix that we'd fix a lot more problems than too many pit bulls



#50 Bulbhunter

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:48 PM

Genetically bred ie designed to have a wicked powerful bite - I don't really care what people say about the breed regarding behavior given they are all nice till they use their genetically designed bite to inflict major bodily harm on whatever or whom ever they decide to bite. Neighbor around the corner adopted a pit mix something as a little puppy - he was like Oh she is so sweet people are so wrong about this whole pit thing. The dog is two years old now and due to a little run in with a neighbor up the street who was wearing an odd looking outfit while working in his yard - he now keeps the dog on a short leash and does not let any kids near it. Lets just say it wasn't till his harmless 2yr old pit mix thing tried to kill his neighbor up the street while he was working in his own yard that he realized its not about a dogs current behavior its about the genetic capability it was bred with.

 

Dogs are the most diverse animal on the planet regarding selected traits by humans the Pit is an amazing machine created by man for one major trait! U'm that is the bite folks just in case you don't already know that. If you want a dog get one with bred traits that were more important that its bite strength.



#51 Bulbhunter

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:57 PM

Any breed can attack some one I bet there are more attacks and bites from Labs and Goldens than Pits given there simply are more Labs and Retrievers than Pits at least there should be. But those dogs are not packing a damn bear trap for a jaw either.

 

BTW living by the GG park for years the two dogs that attacked me while walking my own dog were both Labs which were easily delt with with a kick to the head. The only Pit I was confronted by in an aggressive manner was thankfully kicked and thrown into a car before it launched its attack. At the time all I could think of was if I can get it on its back I can smash its head into the concrete till it stopped moving. No doubt major major injuries were anticipated and death was a thought given my plan was fight to the death and dont let go of the fucker so it can turn and bite me.



#52 dolphinmaster

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:44 PM

The breed itself is not enough information for one to form an opinion from. How the INDIVIDUAL dog was raised, treated and trained is a far more telling fact than the way its ears and muzzle look. 

 

Anyone who doesn't know this, doesn't know dogs, and shouldn't be telling anyone else anything about "breed specific proclivities". 

The tough part is when you do know how dogs are sweet, loyal etc and still come to the conclusion there is a species specific issue.

 

In addition, when you know dogs, you know how powerful the hierachy of the alpha-beta relationships are for pit-bulls etc.  They are incredibly smart, loyal and the challenge is most folks don't know how dogs create the same alpha-beta strata with people.  A child/older person who doesn't know can flip a wonderful, loving, loyal dog, simply by not understanding they "broke" the dog rules.  Even a simple neurotic individual can be at risk.



#53 Bulbhunter

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:52 PM

The breed itself is not enough information for one to form an opinion from. How the INDIVIDUAL dog was raised, treated and trained is a far more telling fact than the way its ears and muzzle look. 

 

Anyone who doesn't know this, doesn't know dogs, and shouldn't be telling anyone else anything about "breed specific proclivities". 

The tough part is when you do know how dogs are sweet, Mostly, loyal etc and still come to the conclusion there is a species specific issue.

Its not about how a animal is raised its about its physical capability that always warrants caution. A horse can kill a man easily they can also remove body parts with a bite which is why you don't generally see people who own horses letting them sleep in their house with their children or allow their children to play with them unsupervised.

 

A pit bull has the physical capability of killing and causing massive bodily injury to an adult let alone a kid yet people get them as pets to live in their home - let their kids play with them unsupervised and are shocked when the pit bites the kid and causes major injury. Stupidity isn't something you can fix. Sure a little hush puppy can cause some damage but the risk of it removing the kids arm, crushing the kids skull or neck is pretty unlikely. A pit on the other hand if and when it bites you have a big problem.



#54 DISHONEST ASSHOLE

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 12:49 AM

I'm going to get a pet Siberian Tiger. Or a Grizzly bear. I see people hugging them and doing tricks in the circus. They're adorable! I'm sure my neighbors will be fine with me walking them around the neighborhood each night. I'll even use a leash! Take them to the park on Sundays too!

#55 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 12:55 AM

I'm going to get a pet Siberian Tiger. Or a Grizzly bear. I see people hugging them and doing tricks in the circus. They're adorable! I'm sure my neighbors will be fine with me walking them around the neighborhood each night. I'll even use a leash! Take them to the park on Sundays too!

The owners of Pit Bulls would be outraged at your carelessness for others safety!!!!



#56 LenP

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 01:05 AM

Meh, you can teach any dog to attack people. Any dog can have an episode where it snaps and acts out of character and bites someone**. When i was a kid we had a saint Bernard that was the sweetest thing ever, until it got a brain tumor and started acting out aggressively, and unfortunately had to be put down. We had a German Shepard that was a pup from two of the meanest nastiest guard dogs you could imagine, and That shepppard was as sweet as sweet can be. If you ban pit bulls, then rappers and thugs will start training a new breed to be vicious and we will be right back to square one. You folks that are crying to ban them are barking up the wrong tree. The problem is the owners not the dogs.


** except for my dog, my dog would not and could not hurt anyone. If we are going to ban dogs, we should ban all breeds other than what I have.

#57 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 01:11 AM

Meh, you can teach any dog to attack people. Any dog can have an episode where it snaps and acts out of character and bites someone. When i was a kid we had a saint Bernard that was the sweetest thing ever, until it got a brain tumor and started acting out aggressively, and unfortunately had to be put down. We had a German Shepard that was a pup from two of the meanest nastiest guard dogs you could imagine, and That shepppard was as sweet as sweet can be. If you ban pit bulls, then rappers and thugs will start training a new breed to be vicious and we will be right back to square one. You folks that are crying to ban them are barking up the wrong tree. The problem is the owners not the dogs.

Len lets try this another way

 

Guns can kill people - bad people will always have them but when you take away his 6 shot 22 pistol and hand the bad person a glock with a high capacity clip it doesn't really take much to sort out that the amount of bad things that will happen will be worse than if you had left him to play with his 6shot 22 pistol. Even worse if you hand him a rocket launcher.  The Pit bull is like a rocket launcher a German Shepard is like a glock. We don't sell rocket launchers to any random idiot on the street do we? Pit bulls are sold to anyone!



#58 LenP

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 01:18 AM

Yes, well you would be mortified if you saw my gun collection then. However aside from some deer, my guns have never hurt anyone. You are right in drawing the comparison, but the conclusion makes no sense. It is legislating and regulating to the lowest common denominator in some ill conceived attempt to make sure the society we live in is fully child and idiot proof. Life doesn't work that way, the world will just produce more and bigger idiots.

#59 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 01:23 AM

Yes, well you would be mortified if you saw my gun collection then. However aside from some deer, my guns have never hurt anyone. You are right in drawing the comparison, but the conclusion makes no sense. It is legislating and regulating to the lowest common denominator in some ill conceived attempt to make sure the society we live in is fully child and idiot proof. Life doesn't work that way, the world will just produce more and bigger idiots.

Len when you have city slickers with zero experienced with handling - training and not assuming responsibility for having a dangerous animal yes that is where policy comes into play given its clear that enough people don't have enough sense to know that having a pit bull requires some special thought regarding its use. Just as you I'm sure have your fire arms locked up so that others can't get into trouble with them when your not looking. Most people with guns even the bad guys know that there are some general things you just do not do with guns - Pit owners haven't an F-ing clue to even the most basic things you simply do not do.



#60 LenP

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 01:39 AM

Yes, well you would be mortified if you saw my gun collection then. However aside from some deer, my guns have never hurt anyone. You are right in drawing the comparison, but the conclusion makes no sense. It is legislating and regulating to the lowest common denominator in some ill conceived attempt to make sure the society we live in is fully child and idiot proof. Life doesn't work that way, the world will just produce more and bigger idiots.

Len when you have city slickers with zero experienced with handling - training and not assuming responsibility for having a dangerous animal yes that is where policy comes into play given its clear that enough people don't have enough sense to know that having a pit bull requires some special thought regarding its use. Just as you I'm sure have your fire arms locked up so that others can't get into trouble with them when your not looking. Most people with guns even the bad guys know that there are some general things you just do not do with guns - Pit owners haven't an F-ing clue to even the most basic things you simply do not do.

I think we would be better off holding the owners responsible, that way they can't find another dangerous way to be stupid that puts innocent people at risk. I agree it is a problem, I just don't think banning one dog because it is popular with bad people and it's bite strength is at the upper end of the spectrum will do any real good. We have problem with people being irresponsible and dangerous, this is one manifestation, so is that knockout game. The world would be better off leaving the dogs out and locking up the problem owners.

#61 Hatin' life

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 02:00 AM

I don't think I'd ever own a dog that I didn't feel I could kill with my own hands if it went ape shit.  I seriously doubt I could put an end to a pitbull.  I grew up with a doberman, and I would not want to have been on the business of that fucker.  He was 105lbs of muscle.  Sweetest damn dog, but he would fly off the handle once in a while and someone would have to put him back in his place, which usually involved thick leather gloves and tossing his ass out the door in a rough way to re-establish the pack.



#62 mustang__1

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 02:04 AM

the only time i ever saw my old dog (half lab, half GSP that we found on the street) growl at another dog, was a pitbull. He then ran full tilt to the otherside of the house and didnt come out for hours. Thats really all i've got to add.... carry on. 



#63 DA-WOODY

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 03:06 AM

Yikes. 

 

I like pitbulls. I believe that any dog can be 'trained' to do something like that. Not just pits. They are better equipped. That's for sure. 

 

milly-1-440.jpg



#64 familysailor

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 03:44 AM

Any breed can attack some one I bet there are more attacks and bites from Labs and Goldens than Pits given there simply are more Labs and Retrievers than Pits at least there should be. But those dogs are not packing a damn bear trap for a jaw either.

 

BTW living by the GG park for years the two dogs that attacked me while walking my own dog were both Labs which were easily delt with with a kick to the head. The only Pit I was confronted by in an aggressive manner was thankfully kicked and thrown into a car before it launched its attack. At the time all I could think of was if I can get it on its back I can smash its head into the concrete till it stopped moving. No doubt major major injuries were anticipated and death was a thought given my plan was fight to the death and dont let go of the fucker so it can turn and bite me.

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Don't place that bet until you've wandered around the site Point Break provided early in this thread:

http://www.dogsbite....itt-clifton.php



#65 PBO

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:05 AM

Meh, you can teach any dog to attack people. Any dog can have an episode where it snaps and acts out of character and bites someone. When i was a kid we had a saint Bernard that was the sweetest thing ever, until it got a brain tumor and started acting out aggressively, and unfortunately had to be put down. We had a German Shepard that was a pup from two of the meanest nastiest guard dogs you could imagine, and That shepppard was as sweet as sweet can be. If you ban pit bulls, then rappers and thugs will start training a new breed to be vicious and we will be right back to square one. You folks that are crying to ban them are barking up the wrong tree. The problem is the owners not the dogs.

Len lets try this another way
 
Guns can kill people - bad people will always have them but when you take away his 6 shot 22 pistol and hand the bad person a glock with a high capacity clip it doesn't really take much to sort out that the amount of bad things that will happen will be worse than if you had left him to play with his 6shot 22 pistol. Even worse if you hand him a rocket launcher.  The Pit bull is like a rocket launcher a German Shepard is like a glock. We don't sell rocket launchers to any random idiot on the street do we? Pit bulls are sold to anyone!

The argument "guns don't kill people, people do" works. With PB the variable is there - even 'good' people who own PB's can't be 100% certain their dog won't bite. Bit like a gun with a mind of its own...no one would have one of those

#66 LenP

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:03 AM

Meh, you can teach any dog to attack people. Any dog can have an episode where it snaps and acts out of character and bites someone. When i was a kid we had a saint Bernard that was the sweetest thing ever, until it got a brain tumor and started acting out aggressively, and unfortunately had to be put down. We had a German Shepard that was a pup from two of the meanest nastiest guard dogs you could imagine, and That shepppard was as sweet as sweet can be. If you ban pit bulls, then rappers and thugs will start training a new breed to be vicious and we will be right back to square one. You folks that are crying to ban them are barking up the wrong tree. The problem is the owners not the dogs.

Len lets try this another way
 
Guns can kill people - bad people will always have them but when you take away his 6 shot 22 pistol and hand the bad person a glock with a high capacity clip it doesn't really take much to sort out that the amount of bad things that will happen will be worse than if you had left him to play with his 6shot 22 pistol. Even worse if you hand him a rocket launcher.  The Pit bull is like a rocket launcher a German Shepard is like a glock. We don't sell rocket launchers to any random idiot on the street do we? Pit bulls are sold to anyone!

The argument "guns don't kill people, people do" works. With PB the variable is there - even 'good' people who own PB's can't be 100% certain their dog won't bite. Bit like a gun with a mind of its own...no one would have one of those

That is true of any dog.

#67 PBO

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:24 AM

My dogs are like potato guns (the little one you stick into the spud) compared to the PB RPG

#68 DISHONEST ASSHOLE

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 12:41 PM

Meh, you can teach any dog to attack people. Any dog can have an episode where it snaps and acts out of character and bites someone. When i was a kid we had a saint Bernard that was the sweetest thing ever, until it got a brain tumor and started acting out aggressively, and unfortunately had to be put down. We had a German Shepard that was a pup from two of the meanest nastiest guard dogs you could imagine, and That shepppard was as sweet as sweet can be. If you ban pit bulls, then rappers and thugs will start training a new breed to be vicious and we will be right back to square one. You folks that are crying to ban them are barking up the wrong tree. The problem is the owners not the dogs.

Len lets try this another way
 
Guns can kill people - bad people will always have them but when you take away his 6 shot 22 pistol and hand the bad person a glock with a high capacity clip it doesn't really take much to sort out that the amount of bad things that will happen will be worse than if you had left him to play with his 6shot 22 pistol. Even worse if you hand him a rocket launcher.  The Pit bull is like a rocket launcher a German Shepard is like a glock. We don't sell rocket launchers to any random idiot on the street do we? Pit bulls are sold to anyone!

The argument "guns don't kill people, people do" works. With PB the variable is there - even 'good' people who own PB's can't be 100% certain their dog won't bite. Bit like a gun with a mind of its own...no one would have one of those

That is true of any dog.

And we are back to the point that any dog can not rip off your arms. The circle is complete.

#69 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 05:34 PM

I don't think I'd ever own a dog that I didn't feel I could kill with my own hands if it went ape shit.  I seriously doubt I could put an end to a pitbull.  I grew up with a doberman, and I would not want to have been on the business of that fucker.  He was 105lbs of muscle.  Sweetest damn dog, but he would fly off the handle once in a while and someone would have to put him back in his place, which usually involved thick leather gloves and tossing his ass out the door in a rough way to re-establish the pack.

Hatin life - odd thing about Dobermans - there are dogs that are called dobermans but do not fall within the breed description regarding size there is a Euro Doberman breed that is large 100-150lbs that is not the 60-75lb doberman breed range stated by the official breed. Which case you have humans designing ie breeding creating a new breed of very large Dobermans with aggressive traits today its the new replacement for Pits! BTW I have a doberman his father was 65lbs and his mother was 70lbs my previous Doberman was 75lbs on his heavy days  they are lighter more lanky and taller than the typical 100lb over fed lab we see at our dog park. My Dobermans share more genetic traits with the gray hounds at the dog park than they do with the Euro jumbo Doberman that shows and looks like a cross between a Pit bull, Great Dane and Rottie.

 

Interesting write ups recently about how even the most experienced Vets rarely if ever get the true breed correct when compared to the genetic test to see what the dog really consists of. The breeder I got my recent Doberman from told me that the trend to breed the LARGE Euro Doberman is here in the US and he gets people calling him all the time asking if he breeds 100-150lb Dobermans he laughs and says thats not a Doberman thats a new breed called Euro Doberman and yes he said that the people asking for them are the same people who had pits.

 

If the Doberman Breed turns into the over bred - bred for the wrong traits like it did back in the 70's again this will probably be my last Doberman. Why do we have a Doberman? Simple in recent years the Doberman Breed has been off the radar of backyard breeders and the Doberman org really cracked down hard on improper traits being bred into the breed since the late 70's. The current 65-75Lb dobermans properly bred are viewed as being on of the most healthy breeds out there regarding illness and genetic issues and typically a properly bred Doberman was bred to be a family dog like the original intent of the Breed. WWI and WWII is where the Doberman Size and presence was viewed as something that could be bred into a protection and service dog some of the traits like raised nails for quiet movement were seen as bonus advantages in creating what was originally a mid sized companion dog with a fair fine coat into a breed with protection and aggressive working dog capability. The US used Dobermans in WWII it was the official War dog - they typically weighed 60-80lbs it was liked because the breed had been perfected for some behavioral traits making them very easy to train and they had enough protection traits bred in that they fit the need quite well.

 

The trend today with the Euro breed is Bigger more capable regarding protection and strength for what? I have no idea given clearly they are not being used as WAR dogs where such traits might be a good thing so one could only guess that the Euro large breeding is being done to create a new dog fighting tool.



#70 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 05:59 PM

BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.



#71 Point Break

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:29 PM

BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.

 

BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.

Our dogs have always been boxers, meet all the above EXCEPT the nails!! Our wood floors suffered greatly as she made the rounds, especially if chasing me around corners. Talk about slip and slide! Funnier than hell to me to watch her try to make the corner with any speed. Mrs. PB on the other hand didn't find it nearly as funny as I did.



#72 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:44 PM

BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.

 

>>BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.

Our dogs have always been boxers, meet all the above EXCEPT the nails!! Our wood floors suffered greatly as she made the rounds, especially if chasing me around corners. Talk about slip and slide! Funnier than hell to me to watch her try to make the corner with any speed. Mrs. PB on the other hand didn't find it nearly as funny as I did.

 

Boxer was on our list this time around we had one on the ranch way back in the day great dog though by age 5 he was missing about half his teeth given he kept going across the road and picking fights with the Orchard owners dog. Really great breed thats been virtually ruined by poor breeding today sadly the Boxer suffers from some of the worst health issues of all the family friendly short hair mid sized breeds right now. Only major downer with the Boxer besides the health issues is the very very high energy. Both our dobermans have been middle of the road for the excitable energy level which has been nice just enough energy to really get playing when its time to play but just as happy to spend the afternoon napping in the sun.

 

The short hair German pointer is another really great breed that is not over bred and has great traits and makes for a really good family dog.



#73 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:56 PM

I haven't seen a good healthy really nice lab in a long time. We have about 10 of them that show up at the 4pm dog social hour at the end of our street. All of them various bred in issues and about 85% of them are all at least 8lbs or more over weight. One of them is only 5 months old and you can see the way he walks that the owner bought into the high protein diet thing a little to far. Each dog is different but when their diet affects their bone development and they spent too much time in a crate the first few weeks their tendons can end up being short and affect how their legs develop add super rich high protein diets being pitched these days you see lots of young dogs developing old dog issues. Kinda sad actually



#74 peeker

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:16 PM

Last summer Touch of Gray and I were in the market for a new used dog. So while perusing the shelter pictures we were surprised to see that the vast majority of dogs were pits or pit mixes.  Made me curious why so many pit owners had given up there dogs. These were not puppies, but adult dogs.  We finally settled on a lovely 8 year old Golden Retriever model.  Although he is a failure as a retriever, as he does not retrieve nor does he swim. 



#75 Bulbhunter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:26 PM

Last summer Touch of Gray and I were in the market for a new used dog. So while perusing the shelter pictures we were surprised to see that the vast majority of dogs were pits or pit mixes.  Made me curious why so many pit owners had given up there dogs. These were not puppies, but adult dogs.  We finally settled on a lovely 8 year old Golden Retriever model.  Although he is a failure as a retriever, as he does not retrieve nor does he swim. 

My last Golden wasn't a swimmer or retriever either. We called him Hobo given he showed up on our front porch in Norcal - our vet traced his vet tag to Socal we contacted that owner who said he was originally from a Vineyard owner in Napa and he had just shown up on their front porch one day. So we contacted the original owner who laughed gave us his original name which he responded too and said have fun with him but don't be surprised when he goes missing. We had him 8yrs during that time he went missing 4 times the longest was 4 months when one day we were in a town 12 miles away stopped at a major intersection when guess who comes cruising by in the cross walk all by him self on you got it the "Walk" sign! Whole family was in the van and we all had the same response No freaking way!! My dad rolled down his window and yelled his name. He stopped mid crossing looked at my dad and came running over - we opened the door he jumped in and it was like he was never gone! HA HA Nutty dog- we had him till his end Cancer finally got him.



#76 Peanut Butter

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:59 PM

Another totally anecdotal weigh-in, but, germane to the thread, so here goes...

 

A friend of mine has a history of owning big and serious dogs. He told the tale of when he once owned both a pit bull and airedale. They both grew up together. Never a problem. Plus the pit had all the attributes we keep hearing about like friendly, loving, sweet, loyal, sociable, well behaved, controlled, etc, etc, blah, blah.

Came home one day to find, in his words, "the most gruesome murder scene you can imagine." Said there wasn't enough left of the airedale to recognize. Just blood and bits and fur all over the house.

 

Took the pit directly to the vet and had it put down.



#77 NorCalLaser

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:04 AM

Another totally anecdotal weigh-in, but, germane to the thread, so here goes...

 

A friend of mine has a history of owning big and serious dogs. He told the tale of when he once owned both a pit bull and airedale. They both grew up together. Never a problem. Plus the pit had all the attributes we keep hearing about like friendly, loving, sweet, loyal, sociable, well behaved, controlled, etc, etc, blah, blah.

Came home one day to find, in his words, "the most gruesome murder scene you can imagine." Said there wasn't enough left of the airedale to recognize. Just blood and bits and fur all over the house.

 

Took the pit directly to the vet and had it put down.

yikes



#78 Snaggletooth

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:09 AM

Another totally anecdotal weigh-in, but, germane to the thread, so here goes...

 

A friend of mine has a history of owning big and serious dogs. He told the tale of when he once owned both a pit bull and airedale. They both grew up together. Never a problem. Plus the pit had all the attributes we keep hearing about like friendly, loving, sweet, loyal, sociable, well behaved, controlled, etc, etc, blah, blah.

Came home one day to find, in his words, "the most gruesome murder scene you can imagine." Said there wasn't enough left of the airedale to recognize. Just blood and bits and fur all over the house.

 

Took the pit directly to the vet and had it put down.

I thick thisse id the kinde of storrey that scarres peopel abote Pitt Bulles.



#79 Bulbhunter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:11 AM

Another totally anecdotal weigh-in, but, germane to the thread, so here goes...

 

A friend of mine has a history of owning big and serious dogs. He told the tale of when he once owned both a pit bull and airedale. They both grew up together. Never a problem. Plus the pit had all the attributes we keep hearing about like friendly, loving, sweet, loyal, sociable, well behaved, controlled, etc, etc, blah, blah.

Came home one day to find, in his words, "the most gruesome murder scene you can imagine." Said there wasn't enough left of the airedale to recognize. Just blood and bits and fur all over the house.

 

Took the pit directly to the vet and had it put down.

yikes

Surprised he even took it to the VET. I've heard stories like that but it ended much faster than the time it would have taken him to load the Pit up in the car. Course these days you handle it your self and you get the whole damn country coming after you for animal abuse. So he probably did it the right way.



#80 Peanut Butter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:17 AM

That said. I also agree that clueless owners are a problem and that includes both low-pants gang bangers and dipshit urban hipsters.

 

Another focus group of one - my mewling, 90-pound, never-owned-a dog-before, urban entitlement ex and I were looking at getting a dog. Ex said "cane corso."

 

I said "WTF???!!! You know we're more like yorkie people, right???"

 

I ended the dog idea right there if that was the level of cluelessness. But, some people of the same ilk follow-through...



#81 Bulbhunter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:22 AM

BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.

 

>BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.

Our dogs have always been boxers, meet all the above EXCEPT the nails!! Our wood floors suffered greatly as she made the rounds, especially if chasing me around corners. Talk about slip and slide! Funnier than hell to me to watch her try to make the corner with any speed. Mrs. PB on the other hand didn't find it nearly as funny as I did.

 

Hey PB - watching our Doberman race through the house on the hard wood floors with zero nails is pretty interesting for those who have never seen a dog that doesn't stand on its nails even in a full skid and spin he sounds like the kids sliding on the floor in their socks. There have been some pretty comical moments watching the pup hit the bottom of the stairs which he Flies down and ending up in a heap across the entry against the front door doesn't seem to phase him but I have noticed hes been slowing it up a tad at the bottom of the stairs recently.



#82 Peanut Butter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:25 AM

 

Another totally anecdotal weigh-in, but, germane to the thread, so here goes...

 

A friend of mine has a history of owning big and serious dogs. He told the tale of when he once owned both a pit bull and airedale. They both grew up together. Never a problem. Plus the pit had all the attributes we keep hearing about like friendly, loving, sweet, loyal, sociable, well behaved, controlled, etc, etc, blah, blah.

Came home one day to find, in his words, "the most gruesome murder scene you can imagine." Said there wasn't enough left of the airedale to recognize. Just blood and bits and fur all over the house.

 

Took the pit directly to the vet and had it put down.

yikes

Surprised he even took it to the VET. I've heard stories like that but it ended much faster than the time it would have taken him to load the Pit up in the car. Course these days you handle it your self and you get the whole damn country coming after you for animal abuse. So he probably did it the right way.

 

Well this guy is afraid of guns and a bit squeamish about hurting animals of any kind - including trapping mice, so not surprised he had someone else do the dirty work...



#83 Point Break

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:32 AM

 

BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.

 

>BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on

them.

Our dogs have always been boxers, meet all the above EXCEPT the nails!! Our wood floors suffered greatly as she made the rounds, especially if chasing me around corners. Talk about slip and slide! Funnier than hell to me to watch her try to make the corner with any speed. Mrs. PB on the other hand didn't find it nearly as funny as I did.

Hey PB - watching our Doberman race through the house on the hard wood floors with zero nails is pretty interesting for those who have never seen a dog that doesn't stand on its nails even in a full skid and spin he sounds like the kids sliding on the floor in their socks. There have been some pretty comical moments watching the pup hit the bottom of the stairs which he Flies down and ending up in a heap across the entry against the front door doesn't seem to phase him but I have noticed hes been slowing it up a tad at the bottom of the stairs recently.

 

I'll bet that's a crack up!! Ours would lean into the corner and scramble her legs like crazy and get nowhere and what a sound the nails would make. She usually made it through the corner but not without a ton of scrambling. There is no way she could catch me if I didn't let her cause she just couldn't keep her footing. Never occurred to her to slow down and ease it through the corners. Her solution was always more throttle. Funnier than hell. I always would let her catch me at the end though. Usually I'd lay down and she'd launch from about 4 feet and land on me. Great dog. Mrs. PB would just glare at us but even she couldn't keep a straight face as much as she hated what the floors looked like afterwards. Floors look great now but I'd trade them in a heartbeat. Man I miss the heck out of that dog.



#84 Bulbhunter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:39 AM

 

 

BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag on them.

 

>>BTW any of you that like mid sized dogs 60-75LBs with very short hair and have expensive hard wood floors.. A proper Doberman is about the only breed that has the traits to fit that. Their nails are very high up on the top of their toes their nails do not touch the ground when they walk great for hard wood floors! However they are damn stealthy given they don't make a sound unless you put a noisy collar tag o

n them.lockquote>

Our dogs have always been boxers, meet all the above EXCEPT the nails!! Our wood floors suffered greatly as she made the rounds, especially if chasing me around corners. Talk about slip and slide! Funnier than hell to me to watch her try to make the corner with any speed. Mrs. PB on the other hand didn't find it nearly as funny as I did.

Hey PB - watching our Doberman race through the house on the hard wood floors with zero nails is pretty interesting for those who have never seen a dog that doesn't stand on its nails even in a full skid and spin he sounds like the kids sliding on the floor in their socks. There have been some pretty comical moments watching the pup hit the bottom of the stairs which he Flies down and ending up in a heap across the entry against the front door doesn't seem to phase him but I have noticed hes been slowing it up a tad at the bottom of the stairs recently.

I'll bet that's a crack up!! Ours would lean into the corner and scramble her legs like crazy and get nowhere and what a sound the nails would make. She usually made it through the corner but not without a ton of scrambling. There is no way she could catch me if I didn't let her cause she just couldn't keep her footing. Never occurred to her to slow down and ease it through the corners. Her solution was always more throttle. Funnier than hell. I always would let her catch me at the end though. Usually I'd lay down and she'd launch from about 4 feet and land on me. Great dog. Mrs. PB would just glare at us but even she couldn't keep a straight face as much as she hated what the floors looked like afterwards. Floors look great now but I'd trade them in a heartbeat. Man I miss the heck out of that dog.

 

Our last dog park visit he finally discovered that he could run 5 months old and he's probably in the top 10% for speed. We have three Gray hounds that come out and run Damn!!!! They are freaking fast as hell! Sunday was our last trip over there I counted 36 dogs 15 Labs - 4 labdoodle things, two boxers, two older german shepards, three Gray hounds, a mix of small sub 30lb mutts one Great Dane which has got to be the biggest freaking Great Dane I've ever seen and three Bermese Mt dogs. Only one dog I've seen has a Pit head and jaw looks like a mix between a larger short haired dog maybe Gray hound and pit. Owner keeps very close tabs on it and its not very social but likes to run. Ugly as sin too.



#85 2high2tight

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 03:11 AM

If you want the dangerous looks, but not the danger, a real English Bulldog is the answer. Or its cousin the wee Frenchie. These guys never make the news, and are just big lugs of fun. In a scary looking package.



#86 Peanut Butter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 03:26 AM

Love english bullies. Fave dog of all time. Can't wait to move so I can get one!



#87 On the Hard

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 03:52 AM

So here's the bottom line for me. I firmly believe that many...... maybe even most pit bull problems are not owner/training issues. The damn dogs just have a tendency to snap.

 

But I'm sick as FUCK of various forms of government telling me what I can't do. And forced neutering the breed into extinction just doesn't seem right either.

 

Did I say bottom line? I still don't know what to think (and you guys know that's rare for me, right?)

 

OK for real this time, the breed needs to go away and I will support the nanny state this one time. Now, having said that, I think I need to take a shower



#88 LenP

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 01:57 PM

 

 

 

Meh, you can teach any dog to attack people. Any dog can have an episode where it snaps and acts out of character and bites someone. When i was a kid we had a saint Bernard that was the sweetest thing ever, until it got a brain tumor and started acting out aggressively, and unfortunately had to be put down. We had a German Shepard that was a pup from two of the meanest nastiest guard dogs you could imagine, and That shepppard was as sweet as sweet can be. If you ban pit bulls, then rappers and thugs will start training a new breed to be vicious and we will be right back to square one. You folks that are crying to ban them are barking up the wrong tree. The problem is the owners not the dogs.

Len lets try this another way
 
Guns can kill people - bad people will always have them but when you take away his 6 shot 22 pistol and hand the bad person a glock with a high capacity clip it doesn't really take much to sort out that the amount of bad things that will happen will be worse than if you had left him to play with his 6shot 22 pistol. Even worse if you hand him a rocket launcher.  The Pit bull is like a rocket launcher a German Shepard is like a glock. We don't sell rocket launchers to any random idiot on the street do we? Pit bulls are sold to anyone!

The argument "guns don't kill people, people do" works. With PB the variable is there - even 'good' people who own PB's can't be 100% certain their dog won't bite. Bit like a gun with a mind of its own...no one would have one of those

That is true of any dog.

And we are back to the point that any dog can not rip off your arms. The circle is complete.

 

Of course not every dog can rip your arms off (as I pointed out my dog never would or could), but many can, and further you could start working on developing a new breed today that is every bit as dangerous. You have solved absolutely no problem by labeling one breed as banned because it is a powerful breed which is popular with a lot of bad people. The entire narrative here is supported by lots of statistics generated by bad people, with a few sprinklings of anecdotes involving normal people to "prove" that inside every pit bull is a killer dog waiting to get out. Banning the breed is just like trying to spackle over a big hole in the wall. If we are going to ask the govt to do something, then what we should do is license the dog owners and require that they go through some basic training and pass a test in order to own their pets. It would go a long ways towards solving the problem of attacks from all breeds, and would also go a long ways towards reducing the instances of dogs being abandoned and abused. There is a tendency in society today to solve every problem by taking away the rights of someone  else, taxing someone else, assigning blame to someone else, requiring testing of someone else, and it never ever does what we want it to do. Nobody is going to go along with a licensing and permitting process to own a dog, because that impacts themselves, and impacts their ability to indulge their kids when they are begging for a puppy. Instead, the answer to dog problems is to blame a breed and blame dog breeders and pet stores, because that is easy and does not impact the people bitching about it. 

 

I really am trying to stay optimistic, but it seems like every day, there is more evidence that we are moving towards the chilling if humorous future foretold in Idiocracy.



#89 dacapo

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 02:10 PM

I was in the "pit bulls are evil" camp until I met Mac, a 3 year old  male pit bull who came from a shelter and was adopted by a friend.  he's got to be one of the most friendliest dogs I've ever met.  not a mean bone/tooth in his body.  owner takes Max to work with him every day, no issues.  no growling, no barking (unless he has to take a leak).

 

Were they bred to fight...yes

do they have enormous jaw strength....yes

is their muscle to fat ratio insane...yes

 

can they be trained to be gentle.....yes.

 

the problem is that the majority of owners want them to be vicious monsters or guard/attack  dogs.  Instead of getting rid of the dogs, how about getting rid of the owners?? 

 

61714_955488641071_1318506734_n.jpg



#90 'moondance44

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 04:00 PM

If you want the dangerous looks, but not the danger, a real English Bulldog is the answer. Or its cousin the wee Frenchie. These guys never make the news, and are just big lugs of fun. In a scary looking package.

The English bulldogs have been so badly overbred they can  hardly eat with their poor protruding lower jaw. Its hard to look at.

And you have to constantly clean dog snot out of their face skin folds. Poor bastards.  My college mascot was an english bulldog. We were in the south and they dont tolerate the heat very well.  Running them around  115 deg f astroturf every score didn't help. I think the school killed 2 of them in 3 years  with heart attacks in football season. I think they finally gave the next one air conditioning in his end zone doghouse 

 

The French Bulldogs are really cute. We found one roaming the streets after Sandy.  Kept it safe for a few days until we found the owner.  (The animal shelter was under water).  Great dog.  



#91 Bulbhunter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 04:52 PM

I was in the "pit bulls are evil" camp until I met Mac, a 3 year old  male pit bull who came from a shelter and was adopted by a friend.  he's got to be one of the most friendliest dogs I've ever met.  not a mean bone/tooth in his body.  owner takes Max to work with him every day, no issues.  no growling, no barking (unless he has to take a leak).

 

Were they bred to fight...yes

do they have enormous jaw strength....yes

is their muscle to fat ratio insane...yes

 

can they be trained to be gentle.....yes.

 

the problem is that the majority of owners want them to be vicious monsters or guard/attack  dogs.  Instead of getting rid of the dogs, how about getting rid of the owners?? 

 

61714_955488641071_1318506734_n.jpg

Its not about if they can be trained to have proper behavior its about their design to have the capability of killing an adult person when they do not behave or actually follow a command. Even a Bear can be trained to be very sweet to a limited number of people but they often end up eating the poor kid that shows up to clean their cage.



#92 Owen

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:22 PM

I sure hope he likes track 5...


 

61714_955488641071_1318506734_n.jpg



#93 dacapo

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:43 PM

I sure hope he likes track 5...


 

61714_955488641071_1318506734_n.jpg

he does.  He was there when we recorded it.........



#94 Monkey

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:30 PM

Bow monkey has predictably driven the discussion towards personal attacks and LOL, yes, I am indeed a cry baby about "scary critters".  Its a helluva a persuasive argument BM... are you a lawyer?
 
anywho, back on topic--
does anyone have a link to any legitimate research re: the historical breeding purposes of the PB?

I hadn't bothered to come back to this thread for awhile. Most definitely not a lawyer. Controls Engineer actually.

The real reason I responded though was to apologize to Gouvernail. I still disagree, but had no reason to be such an ass to you. I apologize. NorCal pissed me off and I vented on you. It was uncalled for.

#95 Bulbhunter

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:46 PM

Of course not every dog can rip your arms off (as I pointed out my dog never would or could), but many can, and further you could start working on developing a new breed today that is every bit as dangerous. You have solved absolutely no problem by labeling one breed as banned because it is a powerful breed which is popular with a lot of bad people. The entire narrative here is supported by lots of statistics generated by bad people, with a few sprinklings of anecdotes involving normal people to "prove" that inside every pit bull is a killer dog waiting to get out. Banning the breed is just like trying to spackle over a big hole in the wall. If we are going to ask the govt to do something, then what we should do is license the dog owners and require that they go through some basic training and pass a test in order to own their pets. It would go a long ways towards solving the problem of attacks from all breeds, and would also go a long ways towards reducing the instances of dogs being abandoned and abused. There is a tendency in society today to solve every problem by taking away the rights of someone  else, taxing someone else, assigning blame to someone else, requiring testing of someone else, and it never ever does what we want it to do. Nobody is going to go along with a licensing and permitting process to own a dog, because that impacts themselves, and impacts their ability to indulge their kids when they are begging for a puppy. Instead, the answer to dog problems is to blame a breed and blame dog breeders and pet stores, because that is easy and does not impact the people bitching about it. 

 

I really am trying to stay optimistic, but it seems like every day, there is more evidence that we are moving towards the chilling if humorous future foretold in Idiocracy.

No one has a right to own a animal and avoid the responsibility that comes with having said animal. A law that gives a person the right to do something is created by the need to place limits ie show society what is considered acceptable and what is not acceptable. You do not have the right to house ie have dangerous wild animals within city limits ie Lion - Bear etc - that law was created because someone clearly thought it was OK and did it - and the resulting outcome was not good for that population of folks.

 

A dog or genetically designed pet if you will that was designed to be exceptionally dangerous and capable physically of inflicting massive bodily injury actually should be put to a vote in a city or even state as to what should be allowed regarding having it as a pet. Given it was created by MAN it also suggest that society could choose to wipe it out ie remove it from the dog population via banning them from a city or state possibly even physically ending the genetic source ie killing them off. When wolfs start killing people and ranch animals in Montana or other states where they are starting to get a pretty large presence you will see that local society approve the hunting or killing off of the wolf.

 

A Beagle is just as sweet and loving as a Pit when the pit doesn't feel threatened or otherwise bothered. The 2yr old pit mix my neighbor has is a very nice dog but you wear baggy overalls and a goofy looking straw sun hat while digging weeds out of your yard and you better be packing a gun because she will try to rip your head off!

 

A pissed off Beagle on the other hand? Give it a swift kick and you've handled the situation.



#96 Tom Ray

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 11:29 AM

http://www.dogsbite....itt-clifton.php

 

By compiling U.S. and Canadian press accounts between 1982 and 2012,1 Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, shows the breeds most responsible for serious injury and death.

 

I want to see the DNA.

 

Press accounts? Lots of reporters seem to think a dog that bit someone was a pit bull until proven otherwise.



#97 Mike in Seattle

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 03:12 PM

We took in a (rescue) pit @ ~2 yrs.

She did pretty well  understanding the Alpha relationship with me, but challenged my Wife.

, finally nipped her one day when I was @ werk.

 

A drive up into he mountains.

Twenty three cents.

A few minutes with the shovel.

 

Later a (rescue) Rodesian Ridgeback. 

My primary question "how are they with little kids"

"Oh, they are wonderful with kids"

 

I started researching the breed after we got her home,

and figured out the rescue lady was "misrepresenting"

( I tink that's the proper PC terminology for lyin' through her teeth.)

 

I had to "watch him like a hawk", and leash him most of the time, when the grandkids were around

and finally he nipped a kid.

 

Another drive up into he mountains, & twenty three cents.

 

 

Now we've had a (4 months @ time of adopt) Pit for a bit over two years, and he has shown himself to be both sides of the debate.

 

? Did you anti-pit guys know, that around the turn of the century, Pits were known as Nanny Dogs ??

 

,,, For generations, the nickname of the pit bull was "Nanny Dog." If you had children, and wanted a dependable babysitter who was also a protector, you got a pit bull. ,,,

 

 

There is a slideshow of Vintage  Kids & Dog pics @ linky

 

 

dd9512bc2ef1c231d3ccc1c85a768c34.jpg?ito

 

 

Jack has shown himself to be both sides of the debate

 

Around my wife he's a snuggle bunny, and learns "sit pretty" means he can mooch some kind of goody

 

The grandkids do "rassle" him down and lay on top,

& he can lick their faces fast enough to overwhelm, & they fall off.

Repeat all day.

 

 

Jack has shown himself to be both sides of the debate.

 

The tweaker down the street is terrified  because Jack showed his Assault Hackles, High Capacity Teeth, and rate-of-roar faster than a MG42,

, letting tweaker clearly understand that Jack really really really wants to eat his face.

 

( I had a "private little chat" with tweaker letting him clearly understand , that if anything happens around my house, I would arrange a meeting between him & Jack)

, so far, so good,,) ( tweaker is back in jail again anyway).

 

With a bay window by the front door, (where Jacks like to hang out)

I don't have any problems with door-to-door salesmen, missionaries, or the like.

 

With some time with Jack, I am learning to trust his instincts a bit more.

 

He likes to ride in the back seat, mostly ignoring pedestrians.

A couple times though, @ stop light, he has raised his hackles & growled,

, so I pay attention to what Jack's saying & keep watch on individual until traffic flow lets me leave

 

 



#98 Bulbhunter

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 04:57 PM

Mike lots of genetic engineering has happened since the turn of the century with pits and the past 50yrs its been the primary fighting dog in a illegal highly profitable business for many including the breeders.

 

When it comes to kids it doesn't matter what animal ie breed you get if they did not get raised with young kids they are probably going to have a 23 cent investment from you after meeting the grand kids. I'm all for rescues being housed by adults if kids are involved the dog needs to be less than a year old better yet 6 months or younger and needs to spend some extended time with the kids in the first year. We bought our current dog from a respected breeder because we have a 1.5yr old son and 4yr old daughter. Our prior dog was a rescue - sort of. We checked him out at the owners home who had raised him from a puppy, owner moved left him with the rescue group who called and asked us to check him out - three months later we were called to come get him from the rescue. He was not raised with kids and we simply kept him away from the kids unless he was leashed and under full command. Never once had any issues with him great dog but I wouldn't have trusted him with kids.

 

Our 5 month old pup picked up at 13 weeks - we left him with mom and the ranch dogs for an extra couple of weeks by design makes for a much better dog regarding learned social skills from mom. He has been awesome zero aggressive behavior with all the typical checks, food, personal space ie bed etc etc and can be trusted 100% with the kids.



#99 jetboy

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:25 AM

We took in a (rescue) pit @ ~2 yrs.

She did pretty well  understanding the Alpha relationship with me, but challenged my Wife.

, finally nipped her one day when I was @ werk.

 

A drive up into he mountains.

Twenty three cents.

A few minutes with the shovel.

 

Later a (rescue) Rodesian Ridgeback. 

My primary question "how are they with little kids"

"Oh, they are wonderful with kids"

 

I started researching the breed after we got her home,

and figured out the rescue lady was "misrepresenting"

( I tink that's the proper PC terminology for lyin' through her teeth.)

 

I had to "watch him like a hawk", and leash him most of the time, when the grandkids were around

and finally he nipped a kid.

 

Another drive up into he mountains, & twenty three cents.

 

 

Now we've had a (4 months @ time of adopt) Pit for a bit over two years, and he has shown himself to be both sides of the debate.

 

? Did you anti-pit guys know, that around the turn of the century, Pits were known as Nanny Dogs ??

 

,,, For generations, the nickname of the pit bull was "Nanny Dog." If you had children, and wanted a dependable babysitter who was also a protector, you got a pit bull. ,,,

 

 

There is a slideshow of Vintage  Kids & Dog pics @ linky

 

 

dd9512bc2ef1c231d3ccc1c85a768c34.jpg?ito

 

 

Jack has shown himself to be both sides of the debate

 

Around my wife he's a snuggle bunny, and learns "sit pretty" means he can mooch some kind of goody

 

The grandkids do "rassle" him down and lay on top,

& he can lick their faces fast enough to overwhelm, & they fall off.

Repeat all day.

 

 

Jack has shown himself to be both sides of the debate.

 

The tweaker down the street is terrified  because Jack showed his Assault Hackles, High Capacity Teeth, and rate-of-roar faster than a MG42,

, letting tweaker clearly understand that Jack really really really wants to eat his face.

 

( I had a "private little chat" with tweaker letting him clearly understand , that if anything happens around my house, I would arrange a meeting between him & Jack)

, so far, so good,,) ( tweaker is back in jail again anyway).

 

With a bay window by the front door, (where Jacks like to hang out)

I don't have any problems with door-to-door salesmen, missionaries, or the like.

 

With some time with Jack, I am learning to trust his instincts a bit more.

 

He likes to ride in the back seat, mostly ignoring pedestrians.

A couple times though, @ stop light, he has raised his hackles & growled,

, so I pay attention to what Jack's saying & keep watch on individual until traffic flow lets me leave

 

 

You are the person we need to target laws to stop from owning dogs.  You should NOT own another dog ever.



#100 NorCalLaser

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:57 AM

All studies have shown pit bulls, through quasi-objective measures, are more aggressive” in comparison to other dogs, Beck said.

“People have been breeding these dogs for fighting since the early 1880s,” he said, by focusing on morphological features keen for fighting. These traits include a solid stature, short hair and a large jaw for clamping down and shaking.

“A low threshold for attack and a high threshold for pain,”

 

-Alan Beck, director of the Center of the Human-Animal Bond and a Purdue professor of animal ecology

source: https://www.jconline...NEWS/312010013/






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