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New AC 35 Rule

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#101 Sailbydate

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 07:41 PM

 

 


 


Think of the one design components as "here are a bunch of bits that make little to no difference to the performance of the boat, but will cost you a mint if you tool up to make them".  The design and tooling for the large structural components - like beams and the main wing spar will run to millions.  If each team has to design and create tooling for an item that they will make one or two of, and yet is essentially a generic component, you are imposing a silly cost overhead. Items that make a real difference - of course they make their own. So in a sense these one design components are the reverse of OD in normal classes - where design restriction are imposed on critical components to even up performance. Here it is the boring bits where it just makes sense to share the cost, whilst it is still a design free for all on the bits that matter.

And yet ALL the bits matter in the AC surely.
 
If for example an OD component was to be the platform and it happened to be built like the NZL 5 tractor, where would the aero advantages of OTUSA's platform have come from?
 
Also, just say a team had the potential to develop a new hull or beam lay-up material that was lighter and stronger than carbon fibre? Remember the Kiwis 'cheating' when they threw out aluminium in favour of fibre glass?
 
Why would you hold development back, through some arbitrary decision about where future advances might be found?

Why, look no further than a whining, bitching Dalton who never let up complaining about the costs.
So, are you saying OTUSA are leaning toward OD components in the new rule, because of GD's bitching and whining?

Yes

together with Italian girly moaning about expense and number of teams.

And so this new rule is going to fix the money thing?

 

I seriously doubt that.



#102 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 08:35 PM

Larry claims he wants to level the playground but the real reason would be GD whinings ?



#103 nav

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 09:37 PM

Level playing field - ah, just like last time then, when they promised the COR role to their race manager - as long as they won?

 

 

 

 

Why, look no further than a whining, bitching Dalton who never let up complaining about the costs.
So, are you saying OTUSA are leaning toward OD components in the new rule, because of GD's bitching and whining?

Yes

together with Italian girly moaning about expense and number of teams.

 

 

Reduced competitor costs was OTUSA's stated aim in planning AC34, Grant merely pointed out that they were going to miss that target.



#104 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:28 PM

" they promised the COR role to their race manager - as long as they won "

You're probably a big believer in Herbie too?

"Grant merely pointed out that they were going to miss that target."

No, he bitched and complained incessantly about costs; whenever he was not arguing with the other side of his face that costs would be no excuse for losing, that he had amassed plenty. What he said depended on the audience and the time.

GD has been a lot quieter on that front lately except when making the case and campaigning for govt support. He may even be having trouble making that case if OR and HI do create a low-cost proposition.

But we all know that while you can lower entry costs, perhaps lower serious-shot winning costs too, teams will burn everything they can raise no matter what.

#105 Sailbydate

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:30 PM

" they promised the COR role to their race manager - as long as they won "

You're probably a big believer in Herbie too?

"Grant merely pointed out that they were going to miss that target."

No, he bitched and complained incessantly about costs; whenever he was not arguing with the other side of his face that costs would be no excuse for losing, that he had amassed plenty. What he said depended on the audience and the time.

GD has been a lot quieter on that front lately except when making the case and campaigning for govt support. He may even be having trouble making that case if OR and HI do create a low-cost proposition.

But we all know that while you can lower entry costs, perhaps lower serious-shot winning costs too, teams will burn everything they can raise no matter what.

No doubt about it. 



#106 nav

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:42 PM

I think a lot of you have been trying hard to rewrite history since the win. If instead ETNZ had of got another win, would every one of OTUSA's decisions now be wrong and all of ETNZ's brilliant? It was all so obvious etc etc?

 

I think it's funny how everyone knows just what the reason for the turnaround was, while OTUSA's designers each come up with a different reason in every article

 

I think OTUSA's non-direct/non-manual board control system was protestable and outside the intent and the letter of the class rule

 

I think IM's insider position was a clear conflict of interest and untenable given his decisive role

 

I think ETNZ was naive and/or overconfident in accepting disadvantageous rule changes

 

All credit to OTUSA for pulling back and winning, but I think the sport might be poorer for the way they play the game and the latitude granted by the 'governing' authority

 

What is not for sale?



#107 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:58 PM

^ IM did not have any role in deciding if the OTUSA board control system was legal, or was the completely fantasized Herbie bullcrap, or not. The Measurers did.

What IM did play a role in, was to bring to the IJ the Measurers' finding in the AC45 tampering; the penalty from which, as we all know, gave ETNZ a very important 2-Race Wins head start.

Nav: you among others were vehemently attacking IM's integrity over safety and other issues. That always was ugly, he never deserved any of it by his actions and, like with your Herbie fantasies, should just be let go of.

Stop still looking like such a fool, it's not a good look.

#108 nav

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 12:11 AM

Stingray you are muddling yourself up there ^ separate issues

 

Re IM: does the fact it's now clear he was acting on behalf of m/billionaires while supposedly a neutral official not raise any issues with you. Their dreams came to zero if ETNZ won. In which other sport would an umpire be allowed such a clear interest in the result? Ugly you say, but a situation he and his (various) masters created, not me.

 

Attacked his integrity? Or pointed out where he appeared to put himself in positions where it would be called into question

 

Dispute the facts by all means, but drop the name calling - not a good look



#109 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 01:26 AM

nav, TNZ had tons of reasons to complain:

 

- racing UNDER  protocol wind limits, decided in the middle of the competition

- a cancelled race ABOVE  the minimum wind limit because of a poor race organisation

- foil automated feedback system AGAINST the spirits and perhaps the word of the protocol

- a lay day immediatly accepted

 

Any change of those conditions could have given the cup to New Zealand, WHY didn't they protest ?

 

I have to say that all different explanations now given by OR leave me perplex, what do they want to hide ?



#110 maxmini

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 02:37 AM

nav, TNZ had tons of reasons to complain:

 

- racing UNDER  protocol wind limits, decided in the middle of the competition. Decided and agreed upon by all involved .

 

- a cancelled race ABOVE  the minimum wind limit because of a poor race organization   Had ET positioned themselves better at the start and not let OR push them to never never land they would have finished in time .

 

- foil automated feedback system AGAINST the spirits and perhaps the word of the protocol  Apparently not true. If it was ET surely would have protested but as the committee announced , the protest would have been denied anyway.

 

- a lay day immediatly accepted   Each team had access to one lay day each per the regulations.

 

Any change of those conditions could have given the cup to New Zealand, WHY didn't they protest ? If they could have you know GD would have that's not even a question . That's how he rolls :)

 

I have to say that all different explanations now given by OR leave me perplex, what do they want to hide ? If they were trying to hide something , which they are indeed entitled to do , they would not be explaining ANYTHING :)



#111 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 03:11 AM

nav, TNZ had tons of reasons to complain:

 

- racing UNDER  protocol wind limits, decided in the middle of the competition. Decided and agreed upon by all involved .

Correct but why ?

 

- a cancelled race ABOVE  the minimum wind limit because of a poor race organization   Had ET positioned themselves better at the start and not let OR push them to never never land they would have finished in time .

Not proved and not relevant, TNZ finished first in the race, in twice above the minimum wind limit.

 

- foil automated feedback system AGAINST the spirits and perhaps the word of the protocol  Apparently not true. If it was ET surely would have protested but as the committee announced , the protest would have been denied anyway.

Not proved.

 

- a lay day immediatly accepted   Each team had access to one lay day each per the regulations.

Correct, however I would like to know why some pretend TNZ could have denied it.

 

 

Any change of those conditions could have given the cup to New Zealand, WHY didn't they protest ? If they could have you know GD would have that's not even a question . That's how he rolls

It is not the only explanation, perhaps they had some agreements with LR, perhaps GD was overconfident, I guess the answer can only come from NZ.

 

I have to say that all different explanations now given by OR leave me perplex, what do they want to hide ? If they were trying to hide something , which they are indeed entitled to do , they would not be explaining ANYTHING.

 

OR is entitled to give ANY explanation, which does not make it right :)



#112 maxmini

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:09 AM

 

nav, TNZ had tons of reasons to complain:

 

- racing UNDER  protocol wind limits, decided in the middle of the competition. Decided and agreed upon by all involved .

Correct but why ?  Both teams must have seen the positive aspects or would not have agreed as easily as they did.

 

- a cancelled race ABOVE  the minimum wind limit because of a poor race organization   Had ET positioned themselves better at the start and not let OR push them to never never land they would have finished in time .

Not proved and not relevant, TNZ finished first in the race, in twice above the minimum wind limit.  They were 45 seconds from finishing a race where they were held above their desired path for more than that.

 

- foil automated feedback system AGAINST the spirits and perhaps the word of the protocol  Apparently not true. If it was ET surely would have protested but as the committee announced , the protest would have been denied anyway.

Not proved.  Nothing to prove as there was never a protest. And as was widely reported had there been on it would not have been upheld.

 

- a lay day immediatly accepted   Each team had access to one lay day each per the regulations.

Correct, however I would like to know why some pretend TNZ could have denied it.  That one is easy , SA " experts " running off at the mouth.

 

 

Any change of those conditions could have given the cup to New Zealand, WHY didn't they protest ? If they could have you know GD would have that's not even a question . That's how he rolls

It is not the only explanation, perhaps they had some agreements with LR, perhaps GD was overconfident, I guess the answer can only come from NZ.  If GD thought they had a leg to stand on I don't see a argument with LR keeping him from doing what he thought was proper for his team.  

 

I have to say that all different explanations now given by OR leave me perplex, what do they want to hide ? If they were trying to hide something , which they are indeed entitled to do , they would not be explaining ANYTHING.

 

OR is entitled to give ANY explanation, which does not make it right :)  With AC 35 being in somewhat similar boats I would think keeping what you learned to yourselves would be good practice as well as perhaps letting out disinformation would be keeping in the best traditions of the Americas Cup . As has been noted there a variety of various theories flying around , no doubt it will continue. As for hiding things , of course they are ,its the AC everyone hides the best parts.



#113 nav

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:27 AM

Wind limits: while the new general limits were agreed, as I pointed out at the time, it was the details, the changes to the measurement protocols, tidal influence adjustments etc that decided things in the end. Whether these changes (creep as I called it) were mutually agreed has never been stated. They did not appear in the formal Race Notices AFAIK

 

Board control protest: the note that even a more timely protest by ETNZ would probably not have succeeded is only relevant to the muddled protest they attempted. It says nothing about the likely success of a direct challenge to a non-manual control system which is disallowed allowed under the rules - as I have enumerated line by line elsewhere.

 

Protests: It would be interesting to know more about the various opinions within ETNZ and from their advisers re protests to rule changes, cheating and the untenable position of the RD which became starkly clear after the event. Should ISAF have been more proactive? Too big to sanction? Whatever, at some point it was clear that simply 'taking their lumps' was the prevailing wisdom.



#114 dogwatch

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:56 AM

^ IM did not have any role in deciding if the OTUSA board control system was legal, or was the completely fantasized Herbie bullcrap, or not. The Measurers did.

Who reported into him.

FWIW I don't think IM was crooked. I don't think he did a particularly good job either. Not least in running fixed sized courses with a time limit, which was a blunder that would get a club race officer criticised around here.

#115 aldo

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 12:03 PM

The little whiny, loser, cunts are out in force again.

 

Love it.



#116 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:32 PM

Wind limits: while the new general limits were agreed, as I pointed out at the time, it was the details, the changes to the measurement protocols, tidal influence adjustments etc that decided things in the end. Whether these changes (creep as I called it) were mutually agreed has never been stated. They did not appear in the formal Race Notices AFAIK

 

Board control protest: the note that even a more timely protest by ETNZ would probably not have succeeded is only relevant to the muddled protest they attempted. It says nothing about the likely success of a direct challenge to a non-manual control system which is disallowed allowed under the rules - as I have enumerated line by line elsewhere.

 

Protests: It would be interesting to know more about the various opinions within ETNZ and from their advisers re protests to rule changes, cheating and the untenable position of the RD which became starkly clear after the event. Should ISAF have been more proactive? Too big to sanction? Whatever, at some point it was clear that simply 'taking their lumps' was the prevailing wisdom.

Absolutely.



#117 nroose

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:50 PM

Let's get one thing straight: The first rule bent in AC34 was the rule that let ETNZ measure in 2 measurement configurations, enabling the foiling. I thought it was bogus, and I still do, but it did result in a very exciting series.

#118 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:23 PM

The hatred from some NZ zealots, even including Herbie Lester and the various other Herbie conspiracy theorists in the illustrious NZ media, reached a crescendo over IM's perfectly reasonable safety recommendations that followed a tragic fatality.

That conspiracy theory was all about how supposedly OR needed or wanted bigger rudder elevators than allowed by the DR, that IM was using the fatality to therefore kowtow to OR's orders, that IM was under OR's influence, that he was essentially bribed.

What a bunch of horse crap. Like with Herbie, the purveyors of the RudderGate conspiracy should forever hide their heads in shame for their own complete idiocy.

#119 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:34 PM

Maybe someone with ten fingers instead of one can post a thread for this? Nice one:
http://www.sail-worl...,-part-I/119759

#120 koseyboy

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 11:00 PM

Let's get one thing straight: The first rule bent in AC34 was the rule that let ETNZ measure in 2 measurement configurations, enabling the foiling. I thought it was bogus, and I still do, but it did result in a very exciting series.

 

Lets get another thing straight then....there is a huge difference in bending the rules and changing them completely....



#121 Rennmaus

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 11:00 PM

Funny how emotional some reactions re. ruddergate and herbie still are, lol. As always in life, things weren't totally black nor totally white, but uncritical belief makes one blind to nuances. .

 

AC35 provides a chance to avoid previous mistakes, looking forward to it.



#122 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 11:04 PM

The uncritical belief by some NZers went far beyond the pale.

I hope they learn from it too but doubt that they will; conspiracies and shit-scraping are apparently just engrained into the nature among some of the die-hard Ruddergate and Herbie-phile conspiratorialists.

Do I expect it to continue? Yes. Look forward to it? No! lol..

#123 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 11:28 PM

"which was really unstable downwind-it was just hard to keep her stable on foils. We were generally sailing with rudder wings that were maybe a little bit too small" Bieker



#124 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:37 AM

^ Yes, but on B2 they always had room to make them bigger IF they wanted to take on the drag; on B1 they had plenty of clearance too after adding a few inches into the bows, IF they had wanted that change to meet the new safety regs.

The absolute truth is that OR never needed or wanted those regs. I have proved it over and over again by evidence and credible quotes.

ETNZ fucked up a lot of things through creating Ruddergate, it was an ugly look in the extreme.

#125 sam75

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:38 AM

The hatred from some NZ zealots, even including Herbie Lester and the various other Herbie conspiracy theorists in the illustrious NZ media, reached a crescendo over IM's perfectly reasonable safety recommendations that followed a tragic fatality.

That conspiracy theory was all about how supposedly OR needed or wanted bigger rudder elevators than allowed by the DR, that IM was using the fatality to therefore kowtow to OR's orders, that IM was under OR's influence, that he was essentially bribed.

What a bunch of horse crap. Like with Herbie, the purveyors of the RudderGate conspiracy should forever hide their heads in shame for their own complete idiocy.

 

I hate to open this can of worms again but.....

 

Was IM pandering to OTUSA? I don't think so.

 

Did OTUSA want bigger rudder wiglets? Possibly for B1. From the link you posted above:

 

"Part of our problem is we had Boat One, which was really unstable downwind-it was just hard to keep her stable on foils. We were generally sailing with rudder wings that were maybe a little bit too small." (OTUSA designer Paul Bieker)

 

Bieker also notes that B1 was faster than B2, but too difficult to control to race.

 

Edit: Sorry TC (and others), I didn't read your post before posting.



#126 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:15 AM

That IM used the crash of a doomed boat, not even foiling, in order to lower the wind limits and impose bigger rudders, threatening of using to USCG to enforce the modifications is outrageous.

 

That the race director "increased"  the minimum wind limits by the organization of the race is strange

 

That the same person was chosen by OR to be their CoR makes it suspicious.



#127 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:20 AM

IM was doing his job as RD.

That he got selected by the Oatleys to front up for them is simply another credit to him.

Just look at the vids of him, what in his nature strikes you as 'wallflower'?

Credit to GGYC, for being that bold as to agree HIYC as CoR despite knowing that IM might represent them in Prot negotiations, after the independence power that he wielded.

#128 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:08 AM

iirc, IM was not Coutts choice. Who decided ?



#129 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:27 AM



Credit to GGYC, for being that bold as to agree HIYC as CoR despite knowing that IM might represent them in Prot negotiations, after the independence power that he wielded.

Hiring a former loyal payroll as CoR is new, even by AC standards.



#130 coaster1

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:53 AM

Didn't realize they are being paid as challenger.

 

How much are they being paid ?



#131 aldo

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:32 AM

TC's just trolling.  don't fall for his shifty act.



#132 nav

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:58 AM

This sort of thing is too sad...

 

The hatred from some NZ zealots, even including Herbie Lester and the various other Herbie conspiracy theorists in the illustrious NZ media, reached a crescendo over IM's perfectly reasonable safety recommendations that followed a tragic fatality.

That conspiracy theory was all about how supposedly OR needed or wanted bigger rudder elevators than allowed by the DR, that IM was using the fatality to therefore kowtow to OR's orders, that IM was under OR's influence, that he was essentially bribed.

What a bunch of horse crap. Like with Herbie, the purveyors of the RudderGate conspiracy should forever hide their heads in shame for their own complete idiocy.

 

IM was doing his job as RD.

That he got selected by the Oatleys to front up for them is simply another credit to him.

Just look at the vids of him, what in his nature strikes you as 'wallflower'?

Credit to GGYC, for being that bold as to agree HIYC as CoR despite knowing that IM might represent them in Prot negotiations, after the independence power that he wielded.

 

 

2 years before the 34th AC was decided....

11.08.26_04.jpg

 

The America’s Cup visit ..... organised by Iain Murray, the Commodore of Hamilton Island Yacht Club. Murray is also the CEO and Regatta Director for the next America’s Cup match

 

Changing the subject, white-washing, tarring with the same brush - you seem to be running from something SR....why so emotional?

Not finishing investigations and not starting them is SOP in your neck of the woods?

 

"All just a happy coincidence - nothing to see here, move along please."  One of the true Zealots has spoken



#133 pusslicker

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:17 AM

Good to here the collective nasal whine of the kiwis picking up again. It has been boring around here without all their outlandish conspiracies. Welcome back assholes.



#134 atefooterz

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:50 PM

~Stingray~, on 03 Mar 2014 - 12:09, said:snapback.png

IM was doing his job as RD.

That he got selected by the Oatleys to front up for them is simply another credit to him.

Just look at the vids of him, what in his nature strikes you as 'wallflower'?

Credit to GGYC, for being that bold as to agree HIYC as CoR despite knowing that IM might represent them in Prot negotiations, after the independence power that he wielded.

Someone really does not understand "gun for hire" realities and the way professionals use chinese blinds and various hats to obey the cashmeisters lolz!



#135 WetHog

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:40 PM

This sort of thing is too sad...

 

The hatred from some NZ zealots, even including Herbie Lester and the various other Herbie conspiracy theorists in the illustrious NZ media, reached a crescendo over IM's perfectly reasonable safety recommendations that followed a tragic fatality.

That conspiracy theory was all about how supposedly OR needed or wanted bigger rudder elevators than allowed by the DR, that IM was using the fatality to therefore kowtow to OR's orders, that IM was under OR's influence, that he was essentially bribed.

What a bunch of horse crap. Like with Herbie, the purveyors of the RudderGate conspiracy should forever hide their heads in shame for their own complete idiocy.

 

>

IM was doing his job as RD.

That he got selected by the Oatleys to front up for them is simply another credit to him.

Just look at the vids of him, what in his nature strikes you as 'wallflower'?

Credit to GGYC, for being that bold as to agree HIYC as CoR despite knowing that IM might represent them in Prot negotiations, after the independence power that he wielded.

 

 

2 years before the 34th AC was decided....

11.08.26_04.jpg

 

The America’s Cup visit ..... organised by Iain Murray, the Commodore of Hamilton Island Yacht Club. Murray is also the CEO and Regatta Director for the next America’s Cup match

 

Changing the subject, white-washing, tarring with the same brush - you seem to be running from something SR....why so emotional?

Not finishing investigations and not starting them is SOP in your neck of the woods?

 

"All just a happy coincidence - nothing to see here, move along please."  One of the true Zealots has spoken

 

And if ETNZ won their COR would of been their B team and 2 boat testing partner for AC34 in LR.  

 

So lets not pretend if ETNZ won AC34 that their AC35 preparations would of been free of question marks.

 

WetHog   :ph34r:



#136 nav

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:08 PM

^ Whoosh



#137 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:30 PM

Vincenzo Oronato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D



#138 schakel

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:31 PM

Vincenzo Oronato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D

Remember what Ernesto Bertarelli said about the CoR before AC 33?

I'll remind you of that.. It's all bull-shit.

Then came the trails in New York 

From wikipedia:

The Golden Gate Yacht Club (GGYC) filed its own challenge for the Cup and then filed a court case asking that CNEV be removed as Challenger of Record as being unqualified under the Deed of Gift. GGYC also asked that it be named as the rightful Challenger of Record, being the first club to file a conforming challenge.[3] There followed a long and acrimonious legal battle,[4] with the New York Court of Appeals finally deciding on April 2, 2009, that CNEV did not qualify as valid challenger, and that the GGYC was thus the rightful Challenger of Record.[5]

Attached File  Alinghi-Oracle-33rd-Americas-Cup.jpg   61.32K   7 downloads

I agree EB could have done that better.

Why not work as Challenger Of Record with team Areva from France at that time?

But well... that history.

Attached File  Areva 32 america's cup 2007.jpg   159.83K   9 downloads



#139 aldo

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:38 PM

No need to remind TC.  He was Ernie's biggest fanboy.



#140 schakel

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:55 PM

No need to remind TC.  He was Ernie's biggest fanboy.

I thought it Brad Butterworth was his biggest fan.

Attached File  220px-Brad-Butterworth.jpg   15.27K   2 downloads

And who is TC? He's not in the Newbie guide to AC Anarchy

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=148152



#141 Rennmaus

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:03 PM

(...)

And who is TC? He's not in the Newbie guide to AC Anarchy

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=148152

 

That's because "TC" is only two letters.



#142 schakel

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:08 PM

(...)

And who is TC? He's not in the Newbie guide to AC Anarchy

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=148152

 

That's because "TC" is only two letters.

Funny Renmaus,

 

LE and RC is only two letters as well.. Duh



#143 aldo

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:12 PM

No need to remind TC.  He was Ernie's biggest fanboy.

I thought it Brad Butterworth was his biggest fan.
attachicon.gif220px-Brad-Butterworth.jpg
And who is TC? He's not in the Newbie guide to AC Anarchy
http://forums.sailin...howtopic=148152

TC is short for Trollnado-Cat.

#144 SW Sailor

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:59 PM

Vincenzo Oronato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought...

 

I see exactly where you went wrong.



#145 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:06 AM

I agree EB could have done that better.

EB advisers made a mistake, but BOR fanboys who preached virtue now close their eyes.



#146 GauchoGreg

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:29 AM

Vincenzo Oronato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D

 

And ETNZ's designer(s) was a "former loyal employee" of Oracle.  Who the fuck cares?  IM works for Australia, now, not Oracle. 

 

Do you think Uber-Rich guys want to let other Uber-rich guys win?  Give me a damned break, they did not get to be uber-rich guys be being the bitch of someone else . . .  Oats wants to win . . . IM is going to do what he needs to give Oats the win.

 

Sometimes you just need to let it go and realize not everything is a damned conspiracy, that Oracle/Ellison is not pure evil, and let things pan out . . . things you seem to fail to do over and over and over again.



#147 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:45 AM

Vincenzo Onorato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D

 

 Oracle/Ellison is not pure evil,

Where did I say that ? might is right.

 

I am making fun of the idiots who dress it with virtue.



#148 GauchoGreg

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:03 AM

 

Vincenzo Onorato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D

 

 Oracle/Ellison is not pure evil,

Where did I say that ? might is right.

 

I am making fun of the idiots who dress it with virtue.

 

The problem is that you are so incessantly trying to hammer Oracle that your points are completely pointLESS.  Occasionally, you might just admit that the countless testaments given by OR team members have actually been extremely consistent . . . . they changed their way of handling the boat, made small modifications of adjustments to the rigging, got heavy into "beast mode", and simply learned to sail their boat.  Name ONE time when anyone from OR has gone away from that explanation as to how they turned things around. 

 

EVERY team knew the rules regarding too-long to finish, the wind limits, the lay days, etc.  ETNZ and OR had the exact same abilities to work within those rules.  ETNZ had no less opportunity to win than OR, regardless of any difference in spending.  They came up with different design philosophies, and OR's turned out to be better, although it took longer to figure out how to fully capitalize on them.  It could have VERY easily gone the other way.  Ian Murray had nothing to do with OR winning, nor would he have had anything to do with them losing, had it gone that way.  The IJ had MUCH more influence than anything IM did, and it pretty much all went against OR.



#149 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:14 AM

Vincenzo Oronato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D

:lol:



#150 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:17 AM

 

~Stingray~, on 03 Mar 2014 - 12:09, said:snapback.png

IM was doing his job as RD.

That he got selected by the Oatleys to front up for them is simply another credit to him.

Just look at the vids of him, what in his nature strikes you as 'wallflower'?

Credit to GGYC, for being that bold as to agree HIYC as CoR despite knowing that IM might represent them in Prot negotiations, after the independence power that he wielded.

Someone really does not understand "gun for hire" realities and the way professionals use chinese blinds and various hats to obey the cashmeisters lolz!

:lol:



#151 SW Sailor

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:28 AM

 

Vincenzo Onorato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D

 

 Oracle/Ellison is not pure evil,

Where did I say that ? might is right.

 

I am making fun of the idiots who dress it with virtue.

Attached Files



#152 maxmini

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:38 AM

 

 

Vincenzo Onorato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D

 

 Oracle/Ellison is not pure evil,

Where did I say that ? might is right.

 

I am making fun of the idiots who dress it with virtue.

 

The problem is that you are so incessantly trying to hammer Oracle that your points are completely pointLESS.  Occasionally, you might just admit that the countless testaments given by OR team members have actually been extremely consistent . . . . they changed their way of handling the boat, made small modifications of adjustments to the rigging, got heavy into "beast mode", and simply learned to sail their boat.  Name ONE time when anyone from OR has gone away from that explanation as to how they turned things around. 

 

EVERY team knew the rules regarding too-long to finish, the wind limits, the lay days, etc.  ETNZ and OR had the exact same abilities to work within those rules.  ETNZ had no less opportunity to win than OR, regardless of any difference in spending.  They came up with different design philosophies, and OR's turned out to be better, although it took longer to figure out how to fully capitalize on them.  It could have VERY easily gone the other way.  Ian Murray had nothing to do with OR winning, nor would he have had anything to do with them losing, had it gone that way.  The IJ had MUCH more influence than anything IM did, and it pretty much all went against OR.

 

factual

concise

the the point

 

I must be on the wrong forum :)



#153 schakel

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:41 AM

 

 

Vincenzo Onorato was puppet, now the CoR is a former loyal employee. I thought GGYC would be a model of integrity and transparency... :D

 

 Oracle/Ellison is not pure evil,

Where did I say that ? might is right.

 

I am making fun of the idiots who dress it with virtue.

 

The problem is that you are so incessantly trying to hammer Oracle that your points are completely pointLESS.  Occasionally, you might just admit that the countless testaments given by OR team members have actually been extremely consistent . . . . they changed their way of handling the boat, made small modifications of adjustments to the rigging, got heavy into "beast mode", and simply learned to sail their boat.  Name ONE time when anyone from OR has gone away from that explanation as to how they turned things around. 

 

EVERY team knew the rules regarding too-long to finish, the wind limits, the lay days, etc.  ETNZ and OR had the exact same abilities to work within those rules.  ETNZ had no less opportunity to win than OR, regardless of any difference in spending.  They came up with different design philosophies, and OR's turned out to be better, although it took longer to figure out how to fully capitalize on them.  It could have VERY easily gone the other way.  Ian Murray had nothing to do with OR winning, nor would he have had anything to do with them losing, had it gone that way.  The IJ had MUCH more influence than anything IM did, and it pretty much all went against OR.

Don't we forget that; if there is no competition, there would not be an America's Cup at all?



#154 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 02:58 AM

Question to all paragons of virtue, looks like IM choice was not RC's one, who decided.

If GGYC is the model of transparency you claim to be you should be able to answer. :D



#155 SW Sailor

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:58 AM

Question to all paragons of virtue, blah blah blah

Uber troll strikes again.



#156 SW Soiler

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:00 PM

Question to all paragons of virtue, blah blah blah

Uber troll strikes again.

 

I mean't I strike again.



#157 SW Sailor

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 05:13 AM

 

Question to all paragons of virtue, blah blah blah

Uber troll strikes again.

 

I mean't I strike again.

 

Nice one - you really got me on that one.

 

What wit you display.



#158 pjh

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 03:48 PM

Getting back to the AC35 rule the problems with the AC72s were:

 

  1. Can't get around the course in less than 12 kts of breeze
  2. Too "dangerous" to sail in +23 kts of breeze
  3. Stupid rules meant to make foiling impossible, just made it really hard, dangerous, and expensive.

If they fix these three items, they'll have made some progress.



#159 aldo

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 06:10 PM

Your third point about unstable foiling is exactly what made the last dance so interesting and exciting. 

 

Without the struggle to tame the beast and the perceived danger the race loses a lot.



#160 nav

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 07:16 PM

First point is easily fixed - remove the artificial 'maximum race duration'.

 

Maybe they think no one notices; they prattle on for years about the 'absolute need' to fit tv's fixed timetable. So wide wind range capable machines are needed, races to be limited to 'one TV hour' (a real hour but with big chunks out for ads), 'athletes', speed, danger blah blah. But then - they have no qualms about delaying starts for fog, lack of wind, too much wind, too much tide, safety, shipping, CG, whatever!

 

Which makes a complete mockery of the original premise, and seems to upset no one in TV land.

Maybe paying for your own tv-time changes the equation??



#161 aldo

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 07:35 PM

Nav, you obviously don't race because if you did you would be very familiar with time limits.

 

They are  common.



#162 nav

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 07:59 PM

Time limits that making completing races impossible within the announced wind range - you surprise me

and as I said, what point do they serve in this case when the end of the race is often 'late' anyway, because of start delays?



#163 aldo

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 09:26 PM

Are you still bitter about the kiwi boat being too slow to finish in time?



#164 Xlot

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 09:29 PM

Part two of the Paul Bieker interview now up at S-W

http://www.sail-worl...part-two/119902

Revealing, what he says about M&M dealing primarily with the Defender - the CoR's concurrence being sought as a second step

#165 ozchrisb

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 11:20 PM

One boat.... Guess Oracle doesn't plan on pitch poling again.



#166 ~Stingray~

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 02:31 AM

Part two of the Paul Bieker interview now up at S-W

http://www.sail-worl...part-two/119902

Revealing, what he says about M&M dealing primarily with the Defender - the CoR's concurrence being sought as a second step

Geezus, that's what you took? :)

Great interview, thanks for the link. Am going to have to track him down too one of these nights, he's my kinda designer.

#167 ~Stingray~

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 02:34 AM

edit, apparently some of the ideas I had posted earlier were ixnayed for AC35, for being a touch too radical.

#168 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:12 AM

Super cavitation foil profiles

5aSailrocket+foil.jpg

Cavitating-Foil.jpg



#169 schakel

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:18 PM

HI tornado Cat,

 

Keel profiles and turbulence as you describe it is not entirely new.

Attached File  Keel profiles.jpg   7.67K   7 downloads

At higher speed the profile gets slimmer but the sharp edge at the end will be effective against the turbulence you describe.

And true, it's all new.. but research mostly is. 

Attached File  Javafoil.png   46.39K   5 downloads

Don't forget hydrofoils are widely used for ferries and a lot of research is already been done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofoil

There is a whole research centre for it in the US of A.

http://www.hydrofoil...recognition.htm

Speeds up to 80 knots are being mentioned.



#170 The Gardener

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:33 PM

Nav, you obviously don't race because if you did you would be very familiar with time limits.

 

They are  common.

They are in the rulebook.



#171 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:58 PM

Thanks schakel, true that supercavitating profiles are not new and were first adapted for the military and small ferries.



#172 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:52 PM

Super cavitation foil profiles

5aSailrocket+foil.jpg

Cavitating-Foil.jpg

thanks T-C 

 

for posting those great graphics - 

 

good to see the foils -dim. etc 

 

so what is your estimations on the new cat -foils design on hulls ?

 

just a shrunken-scaled down  version -or ? maybe 10 ft shorter right ? 

 

thanks 



#173 aldo

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:13 PM

Super cavitation foil profiles

5aSailrocket+foil.jpgCavitating-Foil.jpg

thanks T-C 
 
for posting those great graphics - 
 
good to see the foils -dim. etc 


 
so what is your estimations on the new cat -foils design on hulls ?
 
just a shrunken-scaled down  version -or ? maybe 10 ft shorter right ? 
 
thanks 


Why don't you two asswipes suck each others dick in private so we don't have to watch.

#174 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:46 PM

 

Super cavitation foil profiles

5aSailrocket+foil.jpgCavitating-Foil.jpg

thanks T-C 
 
for posting those great graphics - 
 
good to see the foils -dim. etc 


 
so what is your estimations on the new cat -foils design on hulls ?
 
just a shrunken-scaled down  version -or ? maybe 10 ft shorter right ? 
 
thanks 


Why don't you two asswipes suck each others dick in private so we don't have to watch.

why dont you follow your own advise 

 

and hook up again with your butt buddy sw soiler /''dances with sheep'' 

 

both of you post constantly on you two 's  pervert fixations 

 

so keep that to you two's personal pm's etc -so we dont have to ignore them -besides 

 

this is a professional sailing /racing forum and has no place for your/sw soiler  perv posts 

 

but I guess thats what ggyc /ortusa perv trolls do -



#175 SW Sailor

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 07:07 AM


 
thanks 


Why don't you two asswipes suck each others dick in private so we don't have to watch.

 

They already are in a troll-a-thon love fest - not to worry.



#176 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:37 PM

Part two of the Paul Bieker interview now up at S-W

http://www.sail-worl...part-two/119902

Revealing, what he says about M&M dealing primarily with the Defender - the CoR's concurrence being sought as a second step

Geezus, that's what you took? :)

Great interview, thanks for the link. Am going to have to track him down too one of these nights, he's my kinda designer.

He's here quite frequently and has been since about 2001.  

 

but if you want to 'track him down' you can find him here. We had some interesting discussions about foiling back in the pre-BOR90 days.  some of them are even online.



#177 Xlot

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:57 PM


Where is the "one platform only per team" rumor (VentoeVele) coming from?

#178 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 03:03 AM

Training for the new AC62s ?

 

 

 
 
 
article-2577730-1C2D47B000000578-872_634


http://www.dailymail...-Cup-boats.html



#179 schakel

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:01 AM

To make the cup more expensive then ever:

Graphene is the new wondermaterial. It's said it's to be 200 times stronger than any other material.

Attached File  Graphene.jpg   5.17K   8 downloads

There is not a production facility yet except the universities.

You can build a AC 65 (I name just a length) entirely from this material and it's almost certain that you are going to win because there is 200 times less weight.

Keeps the cup at the cutting edge of technology and all this fellows working :

Attached File  Alt_Oracle designteam1.jpg   52.04K   6 downloads

It's the research/design team from USA Oracle racing at the moment.

Does Australia/ Lunna Rossa/ Artemis/ Emirates Team New Zealand has a design/team like that? 

Interesting is that the team is based in Seattle.

Can you name one very high-technology producer based in Seattle?

Going to help you.

Attached File  boeing3760 seatlle.jpg   495.45K   3 downloads

 

I don't like that America's Cup has gone to aerospace technology.

On the other hand: a least there is a way to get the newest technology applied.

Is it a fair competition then: No of course not..

Unless you make one identical class that all the teams have.

Just like the volvo's 65 at the moment.

 

What do you think?

And I am sure I get an answer like : In the amendments of 1851 there is stipulated that.... 

 

 

 

 



#180 brian weslake

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:31 PM

To make the cup more expensive then ever:

Graphene is the new wondermaterial. It's said it's to be 200 times stronger than any other material.

attachicon.gifGraphene.jpg

There is not a production facility yet except the universities.

You can build a AC 65 (I name just a length) entirely from this material and it's almost certain that you are going to win because there is 200 times less weight.

Keeps the cup at the cutting edge of technology and all this fellows working :

attachicon.gifAlt_Oracle designteam1.jpg

It's the research/design team from USA Oracle racing at the moment.

Does Australia/ Lunna Rossa/ Artemis/ Emirates Team New Zealand has a design/team like that? 

Interesting is that the team is based in Seattle.

Can you name one very high-technology producer based in Seattle?

Going to help you.

attachicon.gifboeing3760 seatlle.jpg

 

I don't like that America's Cup has gone to aerospace technology.

On the other hand: a least there is a way to get the newest technology applied.

Is it a fair competition then: No of course not..

Unless you make one identical class that all the teams have.

Just like the volvo's 65 at the moment.

 

What do you think?

And I am sure I get an answer like : In the amendments of 1851 there is stipulated that.... 

 

 

Jeez you talk some shit sometimes.



#181 pjh

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:48 PM

"... Friendly competition between foreign countries."

#182 Sailbydate

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:23 PM

"... Friendly competition between foreign countries."

We are talking about the AC, right?



#183 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:06 PM

When the AC is learning from smaller boats like the Flying Phantom...

 

 

http://www.bymnews.c...s.php?id=130809

America's Cup: Flying Phantom impresses Philippe Presti Thursday, 03 April 2014 Philippe Presti, the French Olympian and coach of the America’s Cup champion ORACLE TEAM USA, has visited Phantom International in Saint Lunaire - France for some foiling sailing sessions on the Flying Phantom with the Phantom sailing team. Philippe Presti: “The purpose of my visit in Brittany was to try the Flying Phantom. You saw with the last America’s Cup we started to foil upwind and downwind and now we want to explore foiling with small boats. We are thinking it will be very good for the design of our future Cup boat.


#184 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 03:29 AM

Authorized in the next rules ?

 

http://www.engadget....d=rss_truncated



#185 aldo

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:01 AM

It wasn't against the rules in AC 33 or AC 34.



#186 Afterguard.co

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 06:00 AM

We have been in talks with most of the teams from the last AC, and there was no concern about legality of HUD.  We definitely intend to get our system on some of the boats for the next cup.



#187 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:17 PM

An excerpt from
http://www.independe...ge-9240483.html
--
The format for the next Cup, AC35, in 2017 was expected in March. Latest whispers say it could be next Monday or Tuesday. Even then, it will be incomplete.




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