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From Bad to Worse for the MODs


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#1 Icedtea

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:23 PM

Paprec Virbac has been put up for sale. 

Looks like the capsize scared them off.

 

 

http://voilemulticoq...aprec-a-vendre/



#2 mad

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:51 PM

More likely the millions of euros spent already and the need for few more after the flop.

Plus a very reduced fleet, 2 at the moment? Hard to attract sponsers.

#3 Keith

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:41 AM

Simply money related, these are a great design.



#4 edouard

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:32 AM

Sad that the MOD 70 idea wasn't able to come to fruition before the financial crisis to take over on the ashes of ORMA.

 

The class seems to be in a death spiral now with the original "world tour" race calender scraped and no clear alternative. Only seven of the originally planned 10-12 boats built. Two boats lacking budgets (Ravussin Desjoyeaux), two boats damaged (Spindrift Paprec), one boat in the US (Orion) which seems destined to race there and only there.

 

I don't see how they are going to get their head out of the water, without a fleet you can't setup a race calendar and without a race calendar you can't attract people to invest in a fleet.



#5 moody frog

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:40 AM

Sad that the MOD 70 idea wasn't able to come to fruition before the financial crisis to take over on the ashes of ORMA.
 
The class seems to be in a death spiral now with the original "world tour" race calender scraped and no clear alternative. Only seven of the originally planned 10-12 boats built. Two boats lacking budgets (Ravussin Desjoyeaux), two boats damaged (Spindrift Paprec), one boat in the US (Orion) which seems destined to race there and only there.
 
I don't see how they are going to get their head out of the water, without a fleet you can't setup a race calendar and without a race calendar you can't attract people to invest in a fleet.

One of the other boats in France, which is not in your list, is also reputedly at the end of its career.

#6 Icedtea

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:15 AM

Sad that the MOD 70 idea wasn't able to come to fruition before the financial crisis to take over on the ashes of ORMA.
 
The class seems to be in a death spiral now with the original "world tour" race calender scraped and no clear alternative. Only seven of the originally planned 10-12 boats built. Two boats lacking budgets (Ravussin Desjoyeaux), two boats damaged (Spindrift Paprec), one boat in the US (Orion) which seems destined to race there and only there.
 
I don't see how they are going to get their head out of the water, without a fleet you can't setup a race calendar and without a race calendar you can't attract people to invest in a fleet.

One of the other boats in France, which is not in your list, is also reputedly at the end of its career.

De Rothschild? 

Seems to have litsted them all. 

Real shame, wonder how different things would have been if the two hadn't flipped.



#7 Terrorvision

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:50 AM

Not a great prospect when one has been for sale for a long time and that one doesn't have a very public capsize on it's resume.

Don't forget that Sail Oman and Rothschild are set up for short-handed now as well.



#8 mad

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:11 AM

How long before the MOD 70's start heading to the Southern hemisphere? Orma style.



#9 moody frog

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 01:32 PM



Sad that the MOD 70 idea wasn't able to come to fruition before the financial crisis to take over on the ashes of ORMA.
 
The class seems to be in a death spiral now with the original "world tour" race calender scraped and no clear alternative. Only seven of the originally planned 10-12 boats built. Two boats lacking budgets (Ravussin Desjoyeaux), two boats damaged (Spindrift Paprec), one boat in the US (Orion) which seems destined to race there and only there.
 
I don't see how they are going to get their head out of the water, without a fleet you can't setup a race calendar and without a race calendar you can't attract people to invest in a fleet.

One of the other boats in France, which is not in your list, is also reputedly at the end of its career.


De Rothschild? 
Seems to have litsted them all. 
Real shame, wonder how different things would have been if the two hadn't flipped.


Capsizes have nothing to do with it:

I would put the demise reasons as:
1/ Lack of sponsoring money around + large companies cautiousness on yachting expenditure at a time of re-structurations.
2/ Demise of the running-company business model
3/ Too close racing, resulting in lack of public excitement and lack of Media returns
4/ Continuing leadership of existing events offering better and not more expensive opportunities, or ....at least appearing to.

#10 Terrorvision

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 01:59 PM

 

 

Sad that the MOD 70 idea wasn't able to come to fruition before the financial crisis to take over on the ashes of ORMA.
 
The class seems to be in a death spiral now with the original "world tour" race calender scraped and no clear alternative. Only seven of the originally planned 10-12 boats built. Two boats lacking budgets (Ravussin Desjoyeaux), two boats damaged (Spindrift Paprec), one boat in the US (Orion) which seems destined to race there and only there.
 
I don't see how they are going to get their head out of the water, without a fleet you can't setup a race calendar and without a race calendar you can't attract people to invest in a fleet.

One of the other boats in France, which is not in your list, is also reputedly at the end of its career.

 

De Rothschild? 
Seems to have litsted them all. 
Real shame, wonder how different things would have been if the two hadn't flipped.

 

Capsizes have nothing to do with it:

I would put the demise reasons as:
1/ Lack of sponsoring money around + large companies cautiousness on yachting expenditure at a time of re-structurations.
2/ Demise of the running-company business model
3/ Too close racing, resulting in lack of public excitement and lack of Media returns
4/ Continuing leadership of existing events offering better and not more expensive opportunities, or ....at least appearing to.

 

Que?



#11 moody frog

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:08 PM





Sad that the MOD 70 idea wasn't able to come to fruition before the financial crisis to take over on the ashes of ORMA.
 
The class seems to be in a death spiral now with the original "world tour" race calender scraped and no clear alternative. Only seven of the originally planned 10-12 boats built. Two boats lacking budgets (Ravussin Desjoyeaux), two boats damaged (Spindrift Paprec), one boat in the US (Orion) which seems destined to race there and only there.
 
I don't see how they are going to get their head out of the water, without a fleet you can't setup a race calendar and without a race calendar you can't attract people to invest in a fleet.

One of the other boats in France, which is not in your list, is also reputedly at the end of its career.


De Rothschild? 
Seems to have litsted them all. 
Real shame, wonder how different things would have been if the two hadn't flipped.


Capsizes have nothing to do with it:

I would put the demise reasons as:
1/ Lack of sponsoring money around + large companies cautiousness on yachting expenditure at a time of re-structurations.
2/ Demise of the running-company business model
3/ Too close racing, resulting in lack of public excitement and lack of Media returns
4/ Continuing leadership of existing events offering better and not more expensive opportunities, or ....at least appearing to.


 
Que?


Very small time-deltas and leadership alterning between legs, did not seem to bring the excitement and feeling of "adventure" to the general public and mainstream-media alike.
Mods received low coverage as "just an other regatta"

#12 r.finn

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:39 PM

No offense MF, but I'm calling bullshit on that claim. That seems like a stretch. I prefer watching a tight race. Keeps the viewer coming back for updates and is more exciting.

#13 moody frog

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:51 PM

No offense MF, but I'm calling bullshit on that claim. That seems like a stretch. I prefer watching a tight race. Keeps the viewer coming back for updates and is more exciting.

No offence Ryan :) I do too !!

Just what I noticed from the mainstream french press attitude - re Route des Princes and MOD transat - and unfortunately that's where the dollars are for sponsors.

#14 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:11 PM

Don't need to get too complicated here: Organizers/founders/builders fucked things up from the get-go.  The class was never going to succeed as a Franco-Suisse class, but they judiciously avoided doing anything that would have made it attractive to the rest of the world even though the boat is one of the fastest ever.

 

When the French economy folded as predicted, the writing was on the wall.  If there isn't enough money for new IMOCAs in France, there sure as shit ain't money for MODs.



#15 r.finn

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:16 PM

MF, I never really followed those races, but not because they were too tight.  Mostly the same way I didn't follow the inshore series for the ORMA tris ect...  Maybe it's just event brand loyalty on my part.  Those were just filler for my favorite races, the Transat, Route du Rhum and Transat Jacques Vabre.  That's when I paid the most attention to ORMA.  Not coincidentally, this TJV is the closest I've watched a MOD race, but that might just be my predilection to following those races.  I'm sure we'll see a MOD or two in the RDR.  They were certainly exciting to watch last month.



#16 moody frog

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:33 PM

MF, I never really followed those races, but not because they were too tight.  Mostly the same way I didn't follow the inshore series for the ORMA tris ect...  Maybe it's just event brand loyalty on my part.  Those were just filler for my favorite races, the Transat, Route du Rhum and Transat Jacques Vabre.  That's when I paid the most attention to ORMA.  Not coincidentally, this TJV is the closest I've watched a MOD race, but that might just be my predilection to following those races.  I'm sure we'll see a MOD or two in the RDR.  They were certainly exciting to watch last month.

Bang on ! ORMA inshore series never had much follow-up, only the the Transat, Route du Rhum and to a lesser extent Transat Jacques Vabre ever had, not talking about the Vendee !

Gpma only got a decent media return on their VOR effort when Cammas appeared to be in a position to win, which was late into the race.

#17 moody frog

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:39 PM

Don't need to get too complicated here: Organizers/founders/builders fucked things up from the get-go.  The class was never going to succeed as a Franco-Suisse class, but they judiciously avoided doing anything that would have made it attractive to the rest of the world even though the boat is one of the fastest ever.
 
When the French economy folded as predicted, the writing was on the wall.  If there isn't enough money for new IMOCAs in France, there sure as shit ain't money for MODs.

You are right about the organisers and I was probably too kind about the manager who tried going one dream too high for himself, '92 Olympics have unfortunately mellowed my judging ;)

#18 Corley_

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:11 AM

What would the ideal ocean racing multihull look like I wonder in a finance restricted sponsorship environment.  I often reflect on whether a revisiting of a 40' or 45' multihull offshore class could be successful and attract competitors while containing costs? 



#19 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 03:48 AM

might look like Ellens tri !

 

scored a DNF (did not Flip) 



#20 edouard

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:00 AM

What would the ideal ocean racing multihull look like I wonder in a finance restricted sponsorship environment.  I often reflect on whether a revisiting of a 40' or 45' multihull offshore class could be successful and attract competitors while containing costs? 

 

IMO the problem with the "finance restricted sponsorship environment" is that you can't create a new class unless you have a deep pocketed backer to pay for an initial fleet and support a racing calendar.  (You wouldn't get Class40 started nowadays, let alone multis.)

 

The Multi50 only survive because there is an existing fleet and an existing racing calendar. Refitting/upgrading an existing boat is cheaper than building a new one of any description (let alone a whole fleet) and an existing racing calendar is vital to find any kind of sponsorship. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Multi50 association follow in the path of IMOCA and work on ways to bring down the operating costs of the existing fleet and reduce costs of new ones with one design elements (masts and cross beams for example).



#21 Trovão

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 07:32 PM

Uhmmm, so their price should start to drop soon?

#22 NoStrings

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:50 PM

I'm wondering why the multis seem to be uniquely focused in the Atlantic, when the routes from east to west have to be slotted in between hurricane season and winter. Other than the fact that Oahu wouldn't know what to do with a big fleet of multis, IMHO the pacific races are tailor made for these machines. It must be a French thing, or maybe the course, at 2k miles, is too short for what they have to go through to get here.

#23 edouard

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:37 PM

I'm wondering why the multis seem to be uniquely focused in the Atlantic, when the routes from east to west have to be slotted in between hurricane season and winter. Other than the fact that Oahu wouldn't know what to do with a big fleet of multis, IMHO the pacific races are tailor made for these machines. It must be a French thing, or maybe the course, at 2k miles, is too short for what they have to go through to get here.

 

Answered.

 

Give me any other country where multihull ocean racing gathered any public appeal. (And France happens to have a very sizable Atlantic coastline.)

 

The irony of course is that sailors such as Mike Birch or Cam Lewis, and designers such as Nigel Irens were amongst the first to promote the discipline, and that North-American innovators were also initially preeminent in the field, but the French public embraced it and made it their (almost) own.

 

For years, if not decades, conservative Anglo-Saxon race organisers refused multihull entries, and to this day major "ocean races" still refuse (they probably don't want to deprive some local millionaire from getting line honors.)



#24 Keith

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:40 AM

I'm wondering why the multis seem to be uniquely focused in the Atlantic, when the routes from east to west have to be slotted in between hurricane season and winter. Other than the fact that Oahu wouldn't know what to do with a big fleet of multis, IMHO the pacific races are tailor made for these machines. It must be a French thing, or maybe the course, at 2k miles, is too short for what they have to go through to get here.

 

Answered.

 

Give me any other country where multihull ocean racing gathered any public appeal. (And France happens to have a very sizable Atlantic coastline.)

 

The irony of course is that sailors such as Mike Birch or Cam Lewis, and designers such as Nigel Irens were amongst the first to promote the discipline, and that North-American innovators were also initially preeminent in the field, but the French public embraced it and made it their (almost) own.

 

For years, if not decades, conservative Anglo-Saxon race organisers refused multihull entries, and to this day major "ocean races" still refuse (they probably don't want to deprive some local millionaire from getting line honors.)

Winner winner chicken dinner..   



#25 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 10:15 AM

boo hoo hoo

 

maybe they could sail on the river of tears you pair are crying

 

one thing the french do is run races for the multis, if you can't see that is the way? well it's necessary

 

smell the daisies and stop expecting the monos to do it for you

------------------------------------------------

 

 

re the MODs, it was just a matter of slotting in the 'new spec' model into the programs/infratructire where the orma60s used to be, like the Volvo race does

 

I wish that worked, shame if it doesn't get going, maybe the 60s would have run in to $$$ spondorship hurdles had they not changed over ? 



#26 ColinG

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:41 PM

What would the ideal ocean racing multihull look like I wonder in a finance restricted sponsorship environment.  I often reflect on whether a revisiting of a 40' or 45' multihull offshore class could be successful and attract competitors while containing costs? 

Is there a "safety with size" factor with offshore multis?

 

I thought I heard that as you got smaller there were issues in waves offshore, but not sure where or what I may have heard.

 

An updated and restricted version of the "formula 40"  (think Class 40 vs Open 40) might have a chance if it was able to handle the big seas such as of Brittany or Bass Straight in a point to point racing scenario.  [No: Bass straight was not an attempt to tie this to the Hobart moan-fest).  Would be a lot cheaper than a Mulit50 and more bimodal - easier to race inshore - but still big enough.



#27 Trovão

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 10:07 PM


What would the ideal ocean racing multihull look like I wonder in a finance restricted sponsorship environment.  I often reflect on whether a revisiting of a 40' or 45' multihull offshore class could be successful and attract competitors while containing costs? 

Is there a "safety with size" factor with offshore multis?

 

I thought I heard that as you got smaller there were issues in waves offshore, but not sure where or what I may have heard.

 

An updated and restricted version of the "formula 40"  (think Class 40 vs Open 40) might have a chance if it was able to handle the big seas such as of Brittany or Bass Straight in a point to point racing scenario.  [No: Bass straight was not an attempt to tie this to the Hobart moan-fest).  Would be a lot cheaper than a Mulit50 and more bimodal - easier to race inshore - but still big enough.

 

i was thinking more or less the same way.

 

would love to see this happening.



#28 Corley_

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:17 PM

bigger boats are faster but a well constructed and thought out 40' multihull can be very safe as well.  The risk of wave capsize is very small and most multihull capsizes are caused by the boat being sailed over something that we have witnessed quite a lot of lately in large multihulls.  I think you would have to mandate a restrictive sail area and air draft because it's human nature to stack on sail and push the limits. 



#29 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:10 PM

don't know whether an air draft ratio would be accepted but it seems to turn out relatively seaworthy multis in NZ 8.5 metre Class  

 

so for a Cat1 catamaran hull/AD 133% of LOA

and a equalising trimaran ration based on ama loa ? 

 

flame on !!

 

(what would the current loa/AD be on a multi 50?)



#30 Keith

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:38 AM

This is a sweeeeeeet 40 footer...

 

 

http://www.marine-pe...#anchor-jessica

 

 

 

http://forums.sailin...jessica +rabbit



#31 Corley_

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:13 AM

Multi50's have an air draft of 78' so about 1.56 loa/air draft ratio.  The same ratio would give a 62.4' air draft on a 40' multihull which seems reasonable.



#32 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:28 PM

thats totally reasonable & normal (but tallish and flipping height) 

 

but i was angling toward a safe height or a restriction for a southern ocean or 'bad hobart' Cat 0/1 boat

 

wonder what Ellens 75'er had  



#33 Keith

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:56 PM

I thought Ellen's tri was a 75 footer, with a orma 60 style / size rig??



#34 Trovão

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:54 PM

My "rule of thumb" is mast lenght = 1.5 x LOA

#35 Vincent DePillis

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:40 PM

"bad Hobart"

 

Was just reading "Knockdown"  about the Hobart where 6 sailors were killed.  It sounded like many of the capsizes were due to breaking waves-- in which the length mast height ratio would not be that relevant.   One guy describe the wave which did him in as "a "tennis court on end".  Made me want to stay the hell away from the Bass Straight.

 

I think the safe multi offshore rule should require 60 foot two masted trimarans with relatively low mast heights.  ;-)

 

Love to see what Irens and VPLP would come up with given that set of constraints.



#36 ColinG

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:18 PM

Bit of a different concern for the multis.  More that they can sail upwind into a deep low in conditions where the monos are on storm sails.  Monos can get knocked flat by a 60+knot gust.  Multis need to be able to deal with it without flipping.   



#37 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:03 PM

google huh, amazing

 

a Southern Ocean multi has AD at 133% of Length, Ellen B&Q castorama, ( good guess above post 29 GS)

... or an even more conservative 127% in the IDEC (sport elec) Joyon example

 

Irens had already determined that the biggest, and therefore potentially the fastest, boat would be 75ft long with a 100ft high wing-sectioned mast, the rig of which would be as large as MacArthur could handle.

It is 15ft shorter than Francois Joyon's Idec, which set the record last year"

 

not bad reading http://www.theguardi...iencequestions4

___________________________________________________________

 

as 150% AD or mast height are proven flippers I think the above numbers ( about 130% LOA) say something, as do the robust NZ8.5s.

 

If over thisratio  they should stick to sailing 'toward palm trees' with the french navy ready to pick up



#38 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:11 PM

a later development than B&Q for the southern latitudes was

Joyons IDEC II

  • Launched : 2007
  • Total length : 29.70 m (97 ft)
  • Length of outer hulls : 24.5 m (80 ft)
  • Width : 16.5 m (54 ft)
  • Weight : 11 t
  • Sails : 350 m² / 520 m²
  • Mast height : 32 m (105 ft)

 

mast equals 108 % of LOA, and not too oversquare

 

these boats all made it, successfully in each case and no-one went swimming

 

In the latters case even managed to get the second best time around the world behind Orange II and in front of crewed sailboats such as Cheyenne,Géronimo and Orange.

 

THIS IS A CLEAR TREND, the anecdotal evidence has spoken



#39 mr_ryano

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:26 PM

The MOD's were designed to be fully crewed. When they started going shorthanded, it was found that the hydro in the mainsheet release wasn't fast enough for a real "oh-shit" release. Fix the hydro and the boats are perfectly fine



#40 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:41 AM

makes ense, but the vid of the flip had crew om board and ..

they have taller masts than the southern ocean designs

#41 kiwi_bob

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:52 AM

This dude seems to have done a bit of thinking on the subject.Attached File  CLASS 10M (1).pdf   63.76K   41 downloads



#42 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:14 AM

.

good find i.e 'ocean going'

 

so AD is 12mt over length 10mt so 120%, quite conservative for ocean capability

 

interesting the 'auto-capsize prevention' clause



#43 edouard

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:49 AM

.

good find i.e 'ocean going'

 

so AD is 12mt over length 10mt so 120%, quite conservative for ocean capability

 

interesting the 'auto-capsize prevention' clause

 

 

Good luck with that.



#44 Icedtea

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 11:01 AM

.

good find i.e 'ocean going'

 

so AD is 12mt over length 10mt so 120%, quite conservative for ocean capability

 

interesting the 'auto-capsize prevention' clause

They will always find a way to flip. No such thing.



#45 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:00 PM

well yeah if you take it literally 

 

it's a device, panic-button/fuse on the main

 

i think the point of the example is the AD, in the same way that the low airdraft B&Q, IDEC (I & II), Orange etc  manged to sail RTW upright

 

the above spec has a similar AD ratio as the RTWers



#46 edouard

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:08 PM

well yeah if you take it literally 

 

it's a device, panic-button/fuse on the main

 

i think the point of the example is the AD, in the same way that the low airdraft B&Q, IDEC (I & II), Orange etc  manged to sail RTW upright

 

the above spec has a similar AD ratio as the RTWers

 

I see. So only AD need be considered for stability. LOA, width and displacement.have no influence. Good to know.



#47 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 01:28 PM

are you attempting to verbal me

 

I have not mentioned stability yet, so what do you 'see'  mr. E.S.L.



#48 ColinG

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:36 PM

Interesting 2006 paper on stability/resistance to capsize on large ocean multis by Jean Sans, who knows a little about stability.

Attached Files



#49 Speng

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 06:07 PM

The demise of the MOD class has nothing to do with the boats it was the class structure. There  are posts in other threads that explain it, basically some geezer set up a system to provide a money train from the sponsor's bank account to his pocket. Exactly why ANYBODY signed up for it is strange. The class folded  with only a handful of boats and a few other guys decided to build (or modify ORMA 60s into) similar sized tris. So rather than having maybe 8-10 boats to the same rule (which was the typical size of the ORMA fleet) you've got a bunch of similar sized and performance boats which don' fit into a "class" with no proper concept of what to do with them. Hopefully they end up someplace where they get raced rather than rotting in a yard somewhere.



#50 mad

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 05:21 PM

The demise of the MOD class has nothing to do with the boats it was the class structure. There  are posts in other threads that explain it, basically some geezer set up a system to provide a money train from the sponsor's bank account to his pocket. Exactly why ANYBODY signed up for it is strange. The class folded  with only a handful of boats and a few other guys decided to build (or modify ORMA 60s into) similar sized tris. So rather than having maybe 8-10 boats to the same rule (which was the typical size of the ORMA fleet) you've got a bunch of similar sized and performance boats which don' fit into a "class" with no proper concept of what to do with them. Hopefully they end up someplace where they get raced rather than rotting in a yard somewhere.

link?



#51 ctutmark

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 08:51 PM

This dude seems to have done a bit of thinking on the subject.attachicon.gifCLASS 10M (1).pdf

 

Another concept:

http://www.batkare-h...ts.multi31.html






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