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Coutts hints at nationality clause


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#1 southseasbill

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 03:20 AM

NZ herald article:

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=11170902

 

 



#2 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 04:00 AM

Back when.

From a Designer point of view.

About  12 Meters, a while ago.

For the French, I am an American.

For the American, I am French.

Time to say who's is who.

And have  an America's cup contest.



#3 Amati

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:14 AM

+1

Class E catamarans. 3 crew members......

#4 dogwatch

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:31 AM

"In many ways I think we are better to aim at quality rather than quantity. Right now, we have the four teams from AC34 who appear to be active, plus the Australian challenger of record. So it seems likely we can expect a minimum of five high quality teams.

Hopefully that number can be increased. For example, it would be great to have a good team from one of the Asian countries."

 

Doesn't mention BAR, which may or may not signify.



#5 Amati

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 04:24 PM

Quality rather than quantity? How on God's Green Earth do you quantify that outside of competition? Unless you make the price of entrance so high that that becomes the reason d'être.

No more start ups in AC world......

#6 SellingSailing

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:11 PM

"More like Formula 1" - except that Formula 1 doesn't have any reference to nationality in its "charter" as America's Cup does.  The best way to make the AC relevant to a broader audience is to have the teams represent their home countries. There are likely a number of ways to accomplish that, but it needs to happen.



#7 edouard

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:51 PM

"For example, it would be great to have a good team from one of the Asian countries"

 

A nationality rule ain't going to help that happen.



#8 aldo

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 02:59 PM

"For example, it would be great to have a good team from one of the Asian countries"
 
A nationality rule ain't going to help that happen.

It will make that impossible to happen but who cares.

#9 4pines

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 03:48 PM

I like the idea of a nationality rule, but it can be difficult to enforce nowadays so I am curious how they will do it.  Personally, I think they should adopt FIFA's rules (what my understanding is) for this to deal with dual-citizenship and the like:

 

-Must be a citizen of the nation of the team

-Once you sail for a team of a particular nation in the AC, Defender, or Challenger series, you cannot sail for a team of a different nation even if you become a citizen of another nation.

-By Sail, you have to be on a boat that competes in a race of the AC, Defender, or Challenger series. This way if you're on the "B" team and never see the water in an event you are free to switch to whatever nation where you have citizenship

 

I think the dual citizenship issue makes this hard.  Spithill being married to an American is now both a US and AUS citizen (to my understanding) so which country does he have to sail for?  With this rule, starting for this Cup, if he sails for Oracle, he would only be allowed to sail for a US team going forward and could never switch to AUS team and the opposite.

 

Just my 2 cents



#10 fireball

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:44 PM

A strong nationality rule is going to cause problems for Artemis. So far they have announced 2 Brits and 2 Aussies in their team. Haven't heard of any Swedes yet.

#11 aldo

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 06:51 PM

I like the idea of a nationality rule, but it can be difficult to enforce nowadays so I am curious how they will do it.  Personally, I think they should adopt FIFA's rules (what my understanding is) for this to deal with dual-citizenship and the like:
 
-Must be a citizen of the nation of the team
-Once you sail for a team of a particular nation in the AC, Defender, or Challenger series, you cannot sail for a team of a different nation even if you become a citizen of another nation.
-By Sail, you have to be on a boat that competes in a race of the AC, Defender, or Challenger series. This way if you're on the "B" team and never see the water in an event you are free to switch to whatever nation where you have citizenship
 
I think the dual citizenship issue makes this hard.  Spithill being married to an American is now both a US and AUS citizen (to my understanding) so which country does he have to sail for?  With this rule, starting for this Cup, if he sails for Oracle, he would only be allowed to sail for a US team going forward and could never switch to AUS team and the opposite.
 
Just my 2 cents

The US does not recognize dual citizenship.
Jimmy is eligible (if he choses) because of his marriage to become a naturalized citizen.
That's how I understand it.

#12 bluesea

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:34 PM

At minimum the helm should be a citizen. Either that or remove the sham of the flags on the boats, and make it a simple team competition, or wtf ever. 

 

The last AC finals was great boat racing, but pretty damned fucking nauseating when they played the Star-Spangled Banner. What a fucking affront to our nation. Fuck you Larry--no respect till you make it right.  



#13 edouard

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:36 PM

By nationality rule I suspect he means something like what was in place when he joined Alinghi: team members will have to be residents in the team's country for a few years to be eligible.



#14 aldo

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 07:40 PM

How about we keep it like it has been historically.
Under the flag of the yacht club and backers.

The people who have risked the most and their supporters can wave any flag they like.

#15 mattdarnell

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:12 PM

but pretty damned fucking nauseating when they played the Star-Spangled Banner. What a fucking affront to our nation. 

 

what?  

 

I was very proud of Team USA - I do know there was only one American on the racing team.  

 

It was the best display of the can-do American attitude and work ethic that I have seen in a while.



#16 bluesea

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:21 PM

^ I understand what you're saying, and you have a right to your opinion.



#17 aldo

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 08:45 PM

We needed our railroads built.
Our 3rd and 4th generation emigrants put up the money.
Our 1st and 2and generation emigrants designed it.
When we needed grunts to build it we sent out the word and the emigrants came.
God bless America and wave the flag.

#18 KiwiJoker

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 09:23 PM

How about we keep it like it has been historically.
Under the flag of the yacht club and backers.

The people who have risked the most and their supporters can wave any flag they like.

 

Agreed.  The last attempt at nationality rules produced some tortured requirements and strange bedfellows.  The outstanding example being Paulo Cayardi sailing for Italy's Raul Gardini.

 

As I recall, in AC 34 the only Swedish crew member of Artemis defected after Bart Simpson's death. That leaves them a long hill to climb next time.

 

And what about Oracle? Precious few Yanks on that crew last summer. Good news is that Jimmy is entitled to US citizenship through marriage.  Dunno if he's taken the oath of allegiance yet. Reasonable to guess that there will be some expedited applications for citizenship on behalf of other foreign nationals.



#19 bluesea

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:05 PM

BAR understands, The Kiwis understand, so do the Ozzies, the Italians the French. They have made the AC a competition of nations. 



#20 ~Stingray~

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:30 PM

'Understand' is not necessarily the right word. Teams' desire for nationality rules could as easily be a case of 'self serving' - which is an option always open to them and the way it should remain IMO.

If an LE wants to build the best team he can to keep the Cup in the USA, in his USA home town, with a USA Yacht Club, well that's fine by me so long as the employees are high-class and fun to follow.

Nationalism is too close to racism, it gets ugly fast and proves nothing.

#21 floater

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 01:00 AM

Have to agree - at some point nationalism morphs into jingoism. In terms of San Francisco itself - it is an international city. People here would prefer to identify with an enlightened individual of any land over the prototypical ugly American.

Hence apparent SF support for both Kiwis and the Kiwi team.

#22 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 02:17 AM

well said, Aldo.
the implications to teams if RC does go nuts will be interesting; hope he does not go too far

#23 jhc

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 02:55 AM

There is a nationality rule in place already.

 

Only one American team allowed.

 

Not going to change 'till otusa is knocked out.

 

Stupid rule.



#24 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:16 AM

oops, meant Floater too; you too jhc

gd is already pushing nationalism as a big priority, even attributing it to HIYC, but IM et al will surely have to listen to multiple parties and potential interests besides his

#25 bruno

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:33 AM

Have to disagree, the Cup was supposed to be a contest between two nations to see which could best mobilize the optimal combination of native tech and talent to win a sailboat race at sea, a challenge between maritime powers if you will. Even though many of the early builders and sailors in the US had European (predominantly English) roots or birthplaces and latter crews had professionals aboard from non-US nations, the intent was there and for the most part the crews and owners self-identified as American, i.e. Had taken up permanent residence with the goal of citizenship. Cannot really say that is the model for any team since 95.

#26 floater

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:47 AM

The cup is a contest of organization, skill, and technology. If you strictly limit it to national boundaries - then you've got a small club indeed.

No Alinghi - nor Artemis either.

#27 Titan Uranus

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:42 AM

To have a nationality clause must mean that the team, and not just the crew, are "nationals" sailing for a nation.

But, if a team, representing a nation, is not selected by a national selection process, but selected by a private organization, then this is not a national team but just a private team.

As such why does a private team, not nationally selected, need a rule that require nationals to sail as crew?

The AC is a private team sailing against another sailing team.

Ten private teams could be funded by ten rich Kiwi's, Americans, Swiss, English... so which one is the "national" team?

The AC is NOT a nation v nation event. ETNZ does not and never has represented NZ. It has just used NZ as a port of convenience to meet the rules (RNZYS) just as Oracle represents Larry Ellison and uses SF as a port of convenience.

Larry could, even though he is American, could sail the next event in Alexandria, Egypt sailing for the Royal Hong Kong YC, with crew from all over the planet and that would be OK... so where is any nationality in that scenario.

He could also allow many defenders from Egypt.

Remember Valencia was not in Switzerland!

#28 maxmini

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:28 AM

oops, meant Floater too; you too jhc

gd is already pushing nationalism as a big priority, even attributing it to HIYC, but IM et al will surely have to listen to multiple parties and potential interests besides his

 

He's going to have a very hard time convincing anyone he is serious when the first big name he has signed is an Aussie :)



#29 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 05:29 AM

The cup is whatever the Defender and Challenger want it to be.  If they agree that a nationality rule is good for fans, sponsors, media, and the general spectacle of the thing, than they should bloody well pull the trigger on it.

 

I believe exactly this, and would love to see a 50% nationality rule for past Cup challenging countries and a 20% rule for first timers.  I think with the right narrative and solid marketing that this could turn the Cup into something that people actually watch outside of NZ.



#30 ~HHN92~

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:28 PM


Larry could, even though he is American, could sail the next event in Alexandria, Egypt sailing for the Royal Hong Kong YC, with crew from all over the planet and that would be OK... so where is any nationality in that scenario.

He could also allow many defenders from Egypt.

Remember Valencia was not in Switzerland!

 

The GGYC might have a bit of a say in that since the Cup is under their trusteeship, not to a single person. He might run the Cup match there, but not for the RHKYC.



#31 jhc

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:15 PM

"He could also allow many defenders" (ac)

 

Not likely to happen.



#32 Ryley

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 04:46 PM

I like the idea of a nationality rule, but it can be difficult to enforce nowadays so I am curious how they will do it.  Personally, I think they should adopt FIFA's rules (what my understanding is) for this to deal with dual-citizenship and the like:
 
-Must be a citizen of the nation of the team
-Once you sail for a team of a particular nation in the AC, Defender, or Challenger series, you cannot sail for a team of a different nation even if you become a citizen of another nation.
-By Sail, you have to be on a boat that competes in a race of the AC, Defender, or Challenger series. This way if you're on the "B" team and never see the water in an event you are free to switch to whatever nation where you have citizenship
 
I think the dual citizenship issue makes this hard.  Spithill being married to an American is now both a US and AUS citizen (to my understanding) so which country does he have to sail for?  With this rule, starting for this Cup, if he sails for Oracle, he would only be allowed to sail for a US team going forward and could never switch to AUS team and the opposite.
 
Just my 2 cents

The US does not recognize dual citizenship.
Jimmy is eligible (if he choses) because of his marriage to become a naturalized citizen.
That's how I understand it.

It's an interesting debate, Aldo, but get your facts straight. From the US Department of State website:

 

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship.



#33 bluesea

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

Have to agree - at some point nationalism morphs into jingoism. In terms of San Francisco itself - it is an international city. People here would prefer to identify with an enlightened individual of any land over the prototypical ugly American.

Hence apparent SF support for both Kiwis and the Kiwi team.

 

 

Come on, that can easily be interpreted the other way. This jingoism you talk about exists and will always exist everywhere, especially in an environment such as this forum. If its not jingoism it will be something else. This last cup was no less political than '87. 

 

The American people don't care for a carpetbagger crew. I'd dare say most sailors such as myself, did not care who won this last cycle for the same reason. If an American does not steer the boat, its not an American win, sorry.  



#34 SW Sailor

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 06:37 PM

Have to agree - at some point nationalism morphs into jingoism. In terms of San Francisco itself - it is an international city. People here would prefer to identify with an enlightened individual of any land over the prototypical ugly American.

Hence apparent SF support for both Kiwis and the Kiwi team.

 

 

Come on, that can easily be interpreted the other way. This jingoism you talk about exists and will always exist everywhere, especially in an environment such as this forum. If its not jingoism it will be something else. This last cup was no less political than '87. 

 

The American people don't care for a carpetbagger crew. I'd dare say most sailors such as myself, did not care who won this last cycle for the same reason. If an American does not steer the boat, its not an American win, sorry.  

 

You must be pretty important to speak for the American people. Obama only speaks for about half of them, probably a lot less now.

 

You also know some strange sailors - most every sailor I know that follows the cup cared quite a bit about who won and were rooting for OR.



#35 jhc

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 06:53 PM

 

Have to agree - at some point nationalism morphs into jingoism. In terms of San Francisco itself - it is an international city. People here would prefer to identify with an enlightened individual of any land over the prototypical ugly American.

Hence apparent SF support for both Kiwis and the Kiwi team.

 

 

Come on, that can easily be interpreted the other way. This jingoism you talk about exists and will always exist everywhere, especially in an environment such as this forum. If its not jingoism it will be something else. This last cup was no less political than '87. 

 

The American people don't care for a carpetbagger crew. I'd dare say most sailors such as myself, did not care who won this last cycle for the same reason. If an American does not steer the boat, its not an American win, sorry.  

 

You must be pretty important to speak for the American people. Obama only speaks for about half of them, probably a lot less now.

 

You also know some strange sailors - most every sailor I know that follows the cup cared quite a bit about who won and were rooting for OR.

You going to start a recall?

 

You speak for exactly one person.



#36 WetHog

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 07:03 PM

@JHC

 

Obama got 51% of the vote in 2012.  So yeah he speaks for about half, or did.  :lol:

 

All joking aside, I think bluesea is right.  American's can't, or won't, get behind a team like OR that boasts being USA, but has 1 person from the USA on the boat.  Its not rocket science.  If Uncle Larry and friends want an AC that is popular and attracts teams cycle to cycle nationality must play a part.  Must.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#37 SW Sailor

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 07:28 PM

 

 

Have to agree - at some point nationalism morphs into jingoism. In terms of San Francisco itself - it is an international city. People here would prefer to identify with an enlightened individual of any land over the prototypical ugly American.

Hence apparent SF support for both Kiwis and the Kiwi team.

 

 

Come on, that can easily be interpreted the other way. This jingoism you talk about exists and will always exist everywhere, especially in an environment such as this forum. If its not jingoism it will be something else. This last cup was no less political than '87. 

 

The American people don't care for a carpetbagger crew. I'd dare say most sailors such as myself, did not care who won this last cycle for the same reason. If an American does not steer the boat, its not an American win, sorry.  

 

You must be pretty important to speak for the American people. Obama only speaks for about half of them, probably a lot less now.

 

You also know some strange sailors - most every sailor I know that follows the cup cared quite a bit about who won and were rooting for OR.

You going to start a recall?

 

You speak for exactly one person.

 

Precisely my point holmes You know what they say about opinions -



#38 billy backstay

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 07:44 PM

@JHC

 

Obama got 51% of the vote in 2012.  So yeah he speaks for about half, or did.  :lol:

 

All joking aside, I think bluesea is right.  American's can't, or won't, get behind a team like OR that boasts being USA, but has 1 person from the USA on the boat.  Its not rocket science.  If Uncle Larry and friends want an AC that is popular and attracts teams cycle to cycle nationality must play a part.  Must.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Agree!



#39 Finnfart

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:08 PM

Opinions will vary, but in the case of the AC, I don't think the crew composition is what makes most people decide the nationality of the campaign.  Nor have they for a long time.   Swedish crews were aboard the early AC defenders for NYYC and nobody thought they weren't American.

 

It seems to me that in this professional sport, the perceived nationality of the team is most determined by the source of the money, and to a lesser extent, the brands being advertised.  Especially outside the committed fan base like SA.

 

Makes me think of football... of both the European and American variety.   Are there any illusions that Liverpool or the Forty Niners have local citizens playing on the team?   Nope...  but people fill their stadiums rooting for their 'home team'.

 

Furthermore, in an era where citizenship can be acquired in relatively short order, it seems like a waste of effort to restrict, as clever people will quickly circumvent.



#40 maxmini

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:26 PM

The majority of people that made a big deal of the lack of US citizens on the boat were the ones who's teams were getting beat.

 

The team is from where ever their checks are cashed :)

 

USA USA USA



#41 nota

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:25 PM

"He could also allow many defenders" (ac)

 

Not likely to happen.

why ?

we use to race for the honor of being the defender

why was that changed  ?



#42 Teal67

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:49 PM

Most of the posts about this, and the 'nationality' rules themselves, just goes to show that no one remembers, or cares, that it is a contest between yacht clubs not teams. It is the yacht clubs (and vessels) which must be meet nationality requirements not the sailors. Do you really think that Schuyler, or JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, as representatives of the NYYC, really gave a rat's butt where their sailors came from? How about Lipton or Sopwith? They were hiring labor, not nationals. Hire the best for the cheapest . . . the capitalist way.

 

Now, when the billionaires of today hire labor and call them a team this is somehow different? For the sake of "getting behind the team" we are supposed ensure that the workers hired by the rich guy must be from the nation the club is representing? Seriously? If you can't afford to play the game and hire the best, get out and cut your losses now.



#43 Terry Hollis

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:20 AM

I don't know why the rules for nationality need to be discussed when we have no idea of what the rules will be yet ..

 

It is even possible that first time entrants will be given exemption from the nationality rules ..

 

Of course it is possible to have rules like "shall be born in the competing country" or "shall have held citizenship for 10 years" but we all know that OR are not going to allow such rules .. they have already employed some key aliens .

 

I think any nationality rules at this stage will be token at best until such time as the OR loses the AC .



#44 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:37 AM

Most of the posts about this, and the 'nationality' rules themselves, just goes to show that no one remembers, or cares, that it is a contest between yacht clubs not teams. It is the yacht clubs (and vessels) which must be meet nationality requirements not the sailors. Do you really think that Schuyler, or JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, as representatives of the NYYC, really gave a rat's butt where their sailors came from? How about Lipton or Sopwith? They were hiring labor, not nationals. Hire the best for the cheapest . . . the capitalist way.

 

Now, when the billionaires of today hire labor and call them a team this is somehow different? For the sake of "getting behind the team" we are supposed ensure that the workers hired by the rich guy must be from the nation the club is representing? Seriously? If you can't afford to play the game and hire the best, get out and cut your losses now.

actually thats not true -your wrong on the regulations which you fail to post -here is the facts -

 

in GLS times till recently abused and violated illegally - IYRU - crews were required to be yacht club members 

 

not just hired hands also affects admiralty law regS that were /are in place 

 

and CIC  as per deed of gift - 

 

and evilsin's current nightmare since the late Mr. Simpson was excluded from the jones act regs 

 

by evilsin illegally acquiring waivers on those vessels -using  FAOC [CLEAN ] from us congress bought by evilsin -

 

- uscg investigating that NOW - 

 

maybe why coots is changing ''mind'' it is not voluntary - but coots can post his spin -here -

 

EXHIBIT 3729158

 

Attached File  IYRU YC CREW REQS 09.PNG   82.92K   5 downloads



#45 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 12:50 AM

while we are at it might as well get this back to the merc bay ruling before the mob here without merit  attacks my IYRU cites - 

 

In this case, the dispute over the eligibility of the chosen vessels should have been governed and determined by the rules of yacht racing promulgated by the International Yacht Racing Union (IYRU) and followed by the defending San Diego Yacht Club. Pursuant to these rules, an international jury referees the match and decides all protests jointly submitted to it by the parties. The international jury established to resolve all disputes arising out of the 1988 America's Cup Match was composed of five members, all IYRU-certified racing judges of vast experience and international repute, from countries other than the United States and New Zealand. Despite Mercury Bay's repeated claims of the unfairness of San Diego's catamaran defense and notwithstanding San Diego's request that a protest be submitted to the international jury, Mercury Bay deliberately chose to keep the issue from these yachting experts, who were of course, best suited to resolve it. Having thus chosen to seek relief in a judicial forum, Mercury Bay is limited to a resolution of only the legal issues presented.

 

///

 The four yacht clubs are: Courageous Sailing Center of Boston, Inc., Ischoda Yacht Club, South Norwalk, Connecticut, St. Francis Yacht Club, San Francisco, California, and Yale Sailing Associates: Yale-Corinthian Yacht Club, Branford, Connecticut. The eight individual amici (Robert N. Bavier, Jr., John Bertrand, Briggs Cunningham, William P. Ficker, Sir James Hardy, Frederick E. "Ted" Hood, Arthur Knapp, Jr. and Graham Mann) are some of the most highly respected and widely known yachtsmen in recent yacht racing history. All have had extensive connection with and experience as skippers of competing boats in America' Cup competitions. Five are former skippers of yachts which won the America's Cup trophy (Cunningham [Columbia, 1958], Bavier, Jr. [Constellation, 1964], Ficker [Intrepid, 1970], "Ted" Hood [Courageous, 1974], Bertrand [Australia II, 1983]). The yachting background and experience of these men, their trophies and awards and the numerous yachting committees and boards on which they have served are fully summarized in the amici brief, at pp 8-14. In view of San Diego's contention that the dispute over the construction of the Deed of Gift should have been referred to an international jury of yacht racing officials certified by the International Yacht Racing Union (IYRU), it is, perhaps, worthy of note that among the amici are at least three certified judges of the U.S. Yacht Racing Union, one former representative of the U.S. to the International Yacht Racing Union (IYRU) and one former chairman of the Appeals Committee of the U.S. Yacht Racing Union.



#46 maxmini

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:19 AM


Most of the posts about this, and the 'nationality' rules themselves, just goes to show that no one remembers, or cares, that it is a contest between yacht clubs not teams. It is the yacht clubs (and vessels) which must be meet nationality requirements not the sailors. Do you really think that Schuyler, or JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, as representatives of the NYYC, really gave a rat's butt where their sailors came from? How about Lipton or Sopwith? They were hiring labor, not nationals. Hire the best for the cheapest . . . the capitalist way.

 

Now, when the billionaires of today hire labor and call them a team this is somehow different? For the sake of "getting behind the team" we are supposed ensure that the workers hired by the rich guy must be from the nation the club is representing? Seriously? If you can't afford to play the game and hire the best, get out and cut your losses now.

actually thats not true -your wrong on the regulations which you fail to post -here is the facts -

 

in GLS times till recently abused and violated illegally - IYRU - crews were required to be yacht club members 

 

not just hired hands also affects admiralty law regS that were /are in place 

 

and CIC  as per deed of gift - 

 

and evilsin's current nightmare since the late Mr. Simpson was excluded from the jones act regs 

 

by evilsin illegally acquiring waivers on those vessels -using  FAOC [CLEAN ] from us congress bought by evilsin -

 

- uscg investigating that NOW - 

 

maybe why coots is changing ''mind'' it is not voluntary - but coots can post his spin -here -

 

EXHIBIT 3729158

 

attachicon.gifIYRU YC CREW REQS 09.PNG

 

 

Being a member of the defending yacht club is merely a issue of paying dues.

 

Its such a non issue that whether or not it is followed is of little important.

 

Nothing at all to do with nationality .



#47 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:42 AM

 


Most of the posts about this, and the 'nationality' rules themselves, just goes to show that no one remembers, or cares, that it is a contest between yacht clubs not teams. It is the yacht clubs (and vessels) which must be meet nationality requirements not the sailors. Do you really think that Schuyler, or JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, as representatives of the NYYC, really gave a rat's butt where their sailors came from? How about Lipton or Sopwith? They were hiring labor, not nationals. Hire the best for the cheapest . . . the capitalist way.

 

Now, when the billionaires of today hire labor and call them a team this is somehow different? For the sake of "getting behind the team" we are supposed ensure that the workers hired by the rich guy must be from the nation the club is representing? Seriously? If you can't afford to play the game and hire the best, get out and cut your losses now.

actually thats not true -your wrong on the regulations which you fail to post -here is the facts -

 

in GLS times till recently abused and violated illegally - IYRU - crews were required to be yacht club members 

 

not just hired hands also affects admiralty law regS that were /are in place 

 

and CIC  as per deed of gift - 

 

and evilsin's current nightmare since the late Mr. Simpson was excluded from the jones act regs 

 

by evilsin illegally acquiring waivers on those vessels -using  FAOC [CLEAN ] from us congress bought by evilsin -

 

- uscg investigating that NOW - 

 

maybe why coots is changing ''mind'' it is not voluntary - but coots can post his spin -here -

 

EXHIBIT 3729158

 

attachicon.gifIYRU YC CREW REQS 09.PNG

 

 

Being a member of the defending yacht club is merely a issue of paying dues.

 

Its such a non issue that whether or not it is followed is of little important.

 

Nothing at all to do with nationality .

read it again 

 

crews must be CITIZENS of the  country  in which the yacht was built - 

 

that is nationality - 

 

While the terms "citizenship" and "nationality" are sometimes used interchangeably, this is for political purposes rather than because there is no difference between the two. The most familiar instance of this is the use of "nationality" to denote state citizenship (as in nationality law). This is common practice for many states, under the assumption that because they are supposed to be "nation-states" (meaning that the boundaries of the nation and the state coincide), making a distinction is unnecessary – all citizens are also nationals.



#48 Teal67

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:44 AM

Most of the posts about this, and the 'nationality' rules themselves, just goes to show that no one remembers, or cares, that it is a contest between yacht clubs not teams. It is the yacht clubs (and vessels) which must be meet nationality requirements not the sailors. Do you really think that Schuyler, or JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, as representatives of the NYYC, really gave a rat's butt where their sailors came from? How about Lipton or Sopwith? They were hiring labor, not nationals. Hire the best for the cheapest . . . the capitalist way.
 
Now, when the billionaires of today hire labor and call them a team this is somehow different? For the sake of "getting behind the team" we are supposed ensure that the workers hired by the rich guy must be from the nation the club is representing? Seriously? If you can't afford to play the game and hire the best, get out and cut your losses now.

actually thats not true -your wrong on the regulations which you fail to post -here is the facts -
 
in GLS times till recently abused and violated illegally - IYRU - crews were required to be yacht club members 
 
not just hired hands also affects admiralty law regS that were /are in place 
 
and CIC  as per deed of gift - 
 
and evilsin's current nightmare since the late Mr. Simpson was excluded from the jones act regs 
 
by evilsin illegally acquiring waivers on those vessels -using  FAOC [CLEAN ] from us congress bought by evilsin -
 
- uscg investigating that NOW - 
 
maybe why coots is changing ''mind'' it is not voluntary - but coots can post his spin -here -
 
EXHIBIT 3729158
 
attachicon.gifIYRU YC CREW REQS 09.PNG

. . . and the IRYU has exactly what meaning to the AC? The exhibit you cite mentions the crews shall consist on no more than three persons . . . how many did it take to sail a J-boat? I'm suspecting that might prove to be a little short-handed.

#49 bluesea

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:57 AM

Opinions will vary, but in the case of the AC, I don't think the crew composition is what makes most people decide the nationality of the campaign.  Nor have they for a long time.   Swedish crews were aboard the early AC defenders for NYYC and nobody thought they weren't American.

 

 

 

^ In a sense the state of media technology present in the last Cup, has made such examples of the past practically irrelevant. One of Larry's stated goals is to capture the imagination of the non-sailing American public. As mentioned above, the major challengers have brought crew nationality to the forefront, and its an issue that I'm sure will exist beyond the end of the next Cup cycle.



#50 bluesea

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:05 AM

I don't know why the rules for nationality need to be discussed when we have no idea of what the rules will be yet ..

 

It is even possible that first time entrants will be given exemption from the nationality rules ..

 

Of course it is possible to have rules like "shall be born in the competing country" or "shall have held citizenship for 10 years" but we all know that OR are not going to allow such rules .. they have already employed some key aliens .

 

I think any nationality rules at this stage will be token at best until such time as the OR loses the AC .

 

 

Correct, what more can one expect from a "clause"? But there's always the bigger picture... 



#51 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:06 AM

 

Most of the posts about this, and the 'nationality' rules themselves, just goes to show that no one remembers, or cares, that it is a contest between yacht clubs not teams. It is the yacht clubs (and vessels) which must be meet nationality requirements not the sailors. Do you really think that Schuyler, or JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, as representatives of the NYYC, really gave a rat's butt where their sailors came from? How about Lipton or Sopwith? They were hiring labor, not nationals. Hire the best for the cheapest . . . the capitalist way.
 
Now, when the billionaires of today hire labor and call them a team this is somehow different? For the sake of "getting behind the team" we are supposed ensure that the workers hired by the rich guy must be from the nation the club is representing? Seriously? If you can't afford to play the game and hire the best, get out and cut your losses now.

actually thats not true -your wrong on the regulations which you fail to post -here is the facts -
 
in GLS times till recently abused and violated illegally - IYRU - crews were required to be yacht club members 
 
not just hired hands also affects admiralty law regS that were /are in place 
 
and CIC  as per deed of gift - 
 
and evilsin's current nightmare since the late Mr. Simpson was excluded from the jones act regs 
 
by evilsin illegally acquiring waivers on those vessels -using  FAOC [CLEAN ] from us congress bought by evilsin -
 
- uscg investigating that NOW - 
 
maybe why coots is changing ''mind'' it is not voluntary - but coots can post his spin -here -
 
EXHIBIT 3729158
 
attachicon.gifIYRU YC CREW REQS 09.PNG
. . . and the IRYU has exactly what meaning to the AC? The exhibit you cite mentions the crews shall consist on no more than three persons . . . how many did it take to sail a J-boat? I'm suspecting that might prove to be a little short-handed.

wow really you dont that ?? AC DOG cites using yacht racing rules and IYRU was the AC yacht racing rules - 

 

that IYRU was from merc bay decision -and it was on AC and by the ny court -

 

so they thought and cited the IYRU and its applicability -

 

you cant say the judges didnt know what they are talking about -but you are wrong -

 

when the IYRU was part of the AC and that ruling -

 

I thought you claimed to be a lawyer - look up merc bay case - you will see those exact quotes - 



#52 Teal67

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:32 AM

^

The DOG does not in any way cite the IYRU. It states that if the clubs can not agree on the rules, the match shall be raced under the rules of the club holding the cup. Under mutual consent, the clubs can agree to crews made entirely of people tattooed as Maori warriors or only people whose name start with the letter B.

As for claiming to be a lawyer, I've never made such a claim, whilst you have (along with threats of using your vast knowledge and expertise to bring down the AC, UBS, EB, LE, etc.,etc.). As a lawyer, I'm certain that you understand that the NYSC citing the IYRU as a source in their decision does not place the AC under the jurisdiction of the IYR (it remains the courts of NY).

#53 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:59 AM

^

The DOG does not in any way cite the IYRU. It states that if the clubs can not agree on the rules, the match shall be raced under the rules of the club holding the cup. Under mutual consent, the clubs can agree to crews made entirely of people tattooed as Maori warriors or only people whose name start with the letter B.

As for claiming to be a lawyer, I've never made such a claim, whilst you have (along with threats of using your vast knowledge and expertise to bring down the AC, UBS, EB, LE, etc.,etc.). As a lawyer, I'm certain that you understand that the NYSC citing the IYRU as a source in their decision does not place the AC under the jurisdiction of the IYR (it remains the courts of NY).

 

Pocahontas, a lawyer ? :lol:

 

Then admiral clean must also be santa clause. 



#54 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:46 AM

To have a nationality clause must mean that the team, and not just the crew, are "nationals" sailing for a nation.
But, if a team, representing a nation, is not selected by a national selection process, but selected by a private organization, then this is not a national team but just a private team.
As such why does a private team, not nationally selected, need a rule that require nationals to sail as crew?
The AC is a private team sailing against another sailing team.
Ten private teams could be funded by ten rich Kiwi's, Americans, Swiss, English... so which one is the "national" team?
The AC is NOT a nation v nation event. ETNZ does not and never has represented NZ. It has just used NZ as a port of convenience to meet the rules (RNZYS) just as Oracle represents Larry Ellison and uses SF as a port of convenience.
Larry could, even though he is American, could sail the next event in Alexandria, Egypt sailing for the Royal Hong Kong YC, with crew from all over the planet and that would be OK... so where is any nationality in that scenario.
He could also allow many defenders from Egypt.
Remember Valencia was not in Switzerland!


Well wrong again fucknut. The GGYC hold the cup not LE you stupid fucking dick smoking arse bandit. So the RHKYC can not defend it. You father should have pulled out.

#55 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:16 AM

Pocahontas, a lawyer ? :lol:

 

Then admiral clean must also be santa clause. 

Hey, SWS, you can't stop trolling, isn't it ?

After Indio, TK, MSP, your vice commodore, you have a go on Clean now ? Well, if you were alone here you would have fun trolling yourself. :lol:



#56 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:47 AM

Buzz off loser - and learn english or quit faking it.



#57 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:38 AM

^

The DOG does not in any way cite the IYRU. It states that if the clubs can not agree on the rules, the match shall be raced under the rules of the club holding the cup. Under mutual consent, the clubs can agree to crews made entirely of people tattooed as Maori warriors or only people whose name start with the letter B.

As for claiming to be a lawyer, I've never made such a claim, whilst you have (along with threats of using your vast knowledge and expertise to bring down the AC, UBS, EB, LE, etc.,etc.). As a lawyer, I'm certain that you understand that the NYSC citing the IYRU as a source in their decision does not place the AC under the jurisdiction of the IYR (it remains the courts of NY).

your last sentence is close -

 

the ny courts citing doesnt place the AC under the IYRU but it was confirmed by the ny court to be applicable

 

 and that it was conditioned under the deed of gift 

 

so the ny judges verified it 

 

and slapped merc bay yc -for not complying with the dog and running to court instead of the IJ - read it again -

 

look at this point -its a historical issue and its been violated -we can agree on that right? 

 

my response is that the facts be disclosed without distortion - my citing are just whats part of the judicial record - 

 

and how it got to the current status and how we can restore it - without evilsin's greed and demon ehman 's mangled abuse 

 

cheers 



#58 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:43 AM

SheepMan.jpg

. :wub:



#59 Teal67

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:35 PM

^

The DOG does not in any way cite the IYRU. It states that if the clubs can not agree on the rules, the match shall be raced under the rules of the club holding the cup. Under mutual consent, the clubs can agree to crews made entirely of people tattooed as Maori warriors or only people whose name start with the letter B.

As for claiming to be a lawyer, I've never made such a claim, whilst you have (along with threats of using your vast knowledge and expertise to bring down the AC, UBS, EB, LE, etc.,etc.). As a lawyer, I'm certain that you understand that the NYSC citing the IYRU as a source in their decision does not place the AC under the jurisdiction of the IYR (it remains the courts of NY).

your last sentence is close -

 

the ny courts citing doesnt place the AC under the IYRU but it was confirmed by the ny court to be applicable

 

 and that it was conditioned under the deed of gift 

 

so the ny judges verified it 

 

and slapped merc bay yc -for not complying with the dog and running to court instead of the IJ - read it again -

 

look at this point -its a historical issue and its been violated -we can agree on that right? 

 

my response is that the facts be disclosed without distortion - my citing are just whats part of the judicial record - 

 

and how it got to the current status and how we can restore it - without evilsin's greed and demon ehman 's mangled abuse 

 

cheers 

 

I am starting to wonder if you have actually read the things you cite. While the court in Mercury Bay found that the SDYC rules required following IYRU rules, it outright rejected the notion that the DoG disputes should be referred to an IYRU jury rather than the courts. The court found that there was no support for that position in the DoG or anywhere else.

 

There is no historical or legal precedence that the IYRU has any innate authority regarding the AC. The only way they gain any kind of 'foothold' is when clubs cannot agree on the terms of a challenge (mutual consent) and the standing rules of the club holding the cup require following IYRU rules.

 

I am certain that the upcoming cup, like all but two of the past challenges, will be under mutual consent. On that basis, they can pick any rules for racing they feel are appropriate.



#60 WetHog

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 02:53 PM

@Teal67

 

All good points, but for me a nationality rule is more about what can broaden the appeal of the Cup today, making it attractive to potential fans across the globe.  A nationality rule of consequence can be the backbone of an AC with nationally affiliated teams that have sponsors specific to their nation of origin.  Teams motivated by more than where their pay checks are coming from.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#61 jhc

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 03:35 PM

"Teams motivated by more than where their pay checks are coming from." (wh)

 

?



#62 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:06 PM

@Teal67

 

All good points, but for me a nationality rule is more about what can broaden the appeal of the Cup today, making it attractive to potential fans across the globe.  A nationality rule of consequence can be the backbone of an AC with nationally affiliated teams that have sponsors specific to their nation of origin.  Teams motivated by more than where their pay checks are coming from.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Hoggie,

 

Are you also suggesting teams would also be limited to securing corporate sponsorships from the country they represent ?

 

How would that be determined ?



#63 bluesea

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:13 PM

"Teams motivated by more than where their pay checks are coming from." (wh)

 

?

 

 

God and Country?



#64 jhc

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:19 PM

"Are you also suggesting teams would also be limited to securing corporate sponsorships from the country they represent ?(sws)

 

Good point sws!

 

All those 'for paycheck only' racers would really be screwed.

 

And 'yachting' could again be used to describe the ac.

 

No more multinational corporations.

 

Like....Lipton Tea.

 

What utter bull.



#65 floater

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:26 PM



Have to agree - at some point nationalism morphs into jingoism. In terms of San Francisco itself - it is an international city. People here would prefer to identify with an enlightened individual of any land over the prototypical ugly American.

Hence apparent SF support for both Kiwis and the Kiwi team.

 
 
Come on, that can easily be interpreted the other way. This jingoism you talk about exists and will always exist everywhere, especially in an environment such as this forum. If its not jingoism it will be something else. This last cup was no less political than '87. 
 
The American people don't care for a carpetbagger crew. I'd dare say most sailors such as myself, did not care who won this last cycle for the same reason. If an American does not steer the boat, its not an American win, sorry.  

Is that your voice I hear, admist the thundering crowd, demanding retraction of every win skippered by Charlie Barr?

I dont claim to speak for America or Americans in general, and although most locals are acquainted with sailing they don't race or follow sailboat racing, but they can appreciate a culture steeped in sailing. The visiting Kiwis themselves had plenty of laughs about folklore like "the kiwi kids are taught sailing in school".

As it turns out, some kids did in fact grow up sailing - like Jimmy Spithill. The locals appreciate that fact and without a doubt embrace him as their own. Not American - who cares? The kid grew up sailing - he speaks English - wunderkind!

And finally, the use of the term carpet bagger is doubly ironic. Nothing more American, or less pretty, than that.

#66 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:40 PM

"Are you also suggesting teams would also be limited to securing corporate sponsorships from the country they represent ?(sws)

 

Good point sws!

 

All those 'for paycheck only' racers would really be screwed.

 

And 'yachting' could again be used to describe the ac.

 

No more multinational corporations.

 

Like....Lipton Tea.

 

What utter bull.

 

Money is a key constraint for sponsorship based teams - it would seem this avenue needs to be wide open to support teams that need it. Agree it waters down the whole nationality concept if a large successful Fortune 25 multi-national North Korea corporation wanting Dennis Rodman as their tactician or helmsman were to sponsor OR or BAR, but the nationality concept in terms of sailors seems fraught with problems for younger challengers if the intent is to open up the event and increase participation.

 

That could well stifle the efforts of countries without the sailing experience like Korea that could potentially launch a campaign.



#67 jhc

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:27 PM

Several types of syndicates in modern AC:

 

1) Corporate

2) National/Corporate

3) Private/Corporate

4) Foundation/Corporate

5) ?/Corporate

 

Yeah, let's limit the Corporation's involvement!

 

That is really going to make a difference.

 

While were at it let's limit Corporate involvement with:

1) Politics

2) Military

3) Religion

4) Human rights (worker's rights)

5 ?

 

Should be easy...



#68 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:57 PM

+1

I'd like to see sailor nationality remain a syndicate choice not some kind of problematic legislation that quickly leads to questions about all other aspects of the manufacture, design and funding sources. It's completely counterproductive to having the best teams possible getting fielded.

#69 Teal67

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:21 PM

@Teal67

 

All good points, but for me a nationality rule is more about what can broaden the appeal of the Cup today, making it attractive to potential fans across the globe.  A nationality rule of consequence can be the backbone of an AC with nationally affiliated teams that have sponsors specific to their nation of origin.  Teams motivated by more than where their pay checks are coming from.

 

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

WetHog,

 

I recognize the desire for nationality rules, but I consider them to be solely useful if we go on the premise that the AC is a commercial venture in need of some thread of public support. The nationality of the sailors is far more important to the commercial aspect and driving the public participation than it is to the actual competition. In my opinion, sailors, like most athletes, compete more for the spoils of the win (i.e., glory) rather than nationhood. The right to stand alone as the conqueror of all comers is far more consequential than the money or the jingoistic joy of doing it for god and country. Were that not the case, Oracle would have folded at 8-1. After all, they had their money and they weren't racing for their homeland.

 

That being said,I don't actually see a long-term commercial arrangement for the cup. As the ultimate challenge cup, "to the victor goes the spoils" and the winner gets to set the tone for their defense. I don't think anyone will successfully build a framework that can work repeatedly with every new winner. There are just too many big-headed billionaires out there for them to agree to their predecessors plan. Without that, I don't see the value of a strict nationality clause for sailors.

 

I'll would also note that I've always hated the nationalism of the Olympics. I don't give a hoot where a great athlete hails from, I care about the performance and effort that they put into their sport. I want to see the pinnacle of competition, not a watered down performance constructed so that countries can toot their collective national horns. There is enough of that throughout the world already.



#70 fireball

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 09:07 PM

I don't like the idea of nationality rules in the AC.

AC teams are private companies backed by wealthy individuals or corporate sponsorships.

I think getting too hung up over which country they come from is ridiculous.

For an example, look at the ETNZ challenge in AC34. They were always banging on about nationality, but their main sponsor was a corporation owned by a foreign government (Dubai). The best sailor on their team was Australian. Their best designers were foreigners. The best sailor from New Zealand was the CEO of the opposition team. Getting hung up over New Zealand versus America was ridiculous.

For another example: approximately a quarter of the population of my home country (Australia) are born overseas. 43% have one parent born overseas. If you go back a few generations then most of the country have strong ties overseas.

There are many other countries with similar statistics.

Why not let AC35 run with the best teams available and with the minimum amount of bullshit and see how it goes.

#71 maxmini

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:13 PM

I don't like the idea of nationality rules in the AC.

AC teams are private companies backed by wealthy individuals or corporate sponsorships.

I think getting too hung up over which country they come from is ridiculous.

For an example, look at the ETNZ challenge in AC34. They were always banging on about nationality, but their main sponsor was a corporation owned by a foreign government (Dubai). The best sailor on their team was Australian. Their best designers were foreigners. The best sailor from New Zealand was the CEO of the opposition team. Getting hung up over New Zealand versus America was ridiculous.

For another example: approximately a quarter of the population of my home country (Australia) are born overseas. 43% have one parent born overseas. If you go back a few generations then most of the country have strong ties overseas.

There are many other countries with similar statistics.

Why not let AC35 run with the best teams available and with the minimum amount of bullshit and see how it goes.

 

 

Well said , especially this part.

 

The fact that the first heavyweight GD signs is a Aussie should tell you how serious he is about Nationality rules.

 

The AC is a competition between Yacht Clubs not pass ports .



#72 koseyboy

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:14 PM

I don't like the idea of nationality rules in the AC.

AC teams are private companies backed by wealthy individuals or corporate sponsorships.

I think getting too hung up over which country they come from is ridiculous.

For an example, look at the ETNZ challenge in AC34. They were always banging on about nationality, but their main sponsor was a corporation owned by a foreign government (Dubai). The best sailor on their team was Australian. Their best designers were foreigners. The best sailor from New Zealand was the CEO of the opposition team. Getting hung up over New Zealand versus America was ridiculous.

For another example: approximately a quarter of the population of my home country (Australia) are born overseas. 43% have one parent born overseas. If you go back a few generations then most of the country have strong ties overseas.

There are many other countries with similar statistics.

Why not let AC35 run with the best teams available and with the minimum amount of bullshit and see how it goes.

 

Most of your country arrived in ties from overseas!



#73 maxmini

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:17 PM

 

 


Most of the posts about this, and the 'nationality' rules themselves, just goes to show that no one remembers, or cares, that it is a contest between yacht clubs not teams. It is the yacht clubs (and vessels) which must be meet nationality requirements not the sailors. Do you really think that Schuyler, or JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, as representatives of the NYYC, really gave a rat's butt where their sailors came from? How about Lipton or Sopwith? They were hiring labor, not nationals. Hire the best for the cheapest . . . the capitalist way.

 

Now, when the billionaires of today hire labor and call them a team this is somehow different? For the sake of "getting behind the team" we are supposed ensure that the workers hired by the rich guy must be from the nation the club is representing? Seriously? If you can't afford to play the game and hire the best, get out and cut your losses now.

actually thats not true -your wrong on the regulations which you fail to post -here is the facts -

 

in GLS times till recently abused and violated illegally - IYRU - crews were required to be yacht club members 

 

not just hired hands also affects admiralty law regS that were /are in place 

 

and CIC  as per deed of gift - 

 

and evilsin's current nightmare since the late Mr. Simpson was excluded from the jones act regs 

 

by evilsin illegally acquiring waivers on those vessels -using  FAOC [CLEAN ] from us congress bought by evilsin -

 

- uscg investigating that NOW - 

 

maybe why coots is changing ''mind'' it is not voluntary - but coots can post his spin -here -

 

EXHIBIT 3729158

 

attachicon.gifIYRU YC CREW REQS 09.PNG

 

 

Being a member of the defending yacht club is merely a issue of paying dues.

 

Its such a non issue that whether or not it is followed is of little important.

 

Nothing at all to do with nationality .

read it again 

 

crews must be CITIZENS of the  country  in which the yacht was built - 

 

that is nationality - 

 

While the terms "citizenship" and "nationality" are sometimes used interchangeably, this is for political purposes rather than because there is no difference between the two. The most familiar instance of this is the use of "nationality" to denote state citizenship (as in nationality law). This is common practice for many states, under the assumption that because they are supposed to be "nation-states" (meaning that the boundaries of the nation and the state coincide), making a distinction is unnecessary – all citizens are also nationals.

 

 I did read it , do you read what you write ?  I highlighted the part I was referring to which you brought up in the first place .

 

My point was that it was easy to be come a member of a competing yacht club .



#74 koseyboy

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:24 PM


 

 

Well said , especially this part.

 

The fact that the first heavyweight GD signs is a Aussie should tell you how serious he is about Nationality rules.

 

The AC is a competition between Yacht Clubs not pass ports .


GA is only the first official signing we've heard about for ETNZ.  A lot of people here are banging on about ETNZ and nationality rules, but it was Coutts who mentioned it this time.  There are lots of valid points for and against any sort of clause (none of them being what fireball said) and in the end I don't think it really matters which way it goes - (AC34 was great) It is rather amusing how there is one particular teams supporters who are dead against the idea though.... :blink:



#75 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:36 PM

 

 

 


Most of the posts about this, and the 'nationality' rules themselves, just goes to show that no one remembers, or cares, that it is a contest between yacht clubs not teams. It is the yacht clubs (and vessels) which must be meet nationality requirements not the sailors. Do you really think that Schuyler, or JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, as representatives of the NYYC, really gave a rat's butt where their sailors came from? How about Lipton or Sopwith? They were hiring labor, not nationals. Hire the best for the cheapest . . . the capitalist way.

 

Now, when the billionaires of today hire labor and call them a team this is somehow different? For the sake of "getting behind the team" we are supposed ensure that the workers hired by the rich guy must be from the nation the club is representing? Seriously? If you can't afford to play the game and hire the best, get out and cut your losses now.

actually thats not true -your wrong on the regulations which you fail to post -here is the facts -

 

in GLS times till recently abused and violated illegally - IYRU - crews were required to be yacht club members 

 

not just hired hands also affects admiralty law regS that were /are in place 

 

and CIC  as per deed of gift - 

 

and evilsin's current nightmare since the late Mr. Simpson was excluded from the jones act regs 

 

by evilsin illegally acquiring waivers on those vessels -using  FAOC [CLEAN ] from us congress bought by evilsin -

 

- uscg investigating that NOW - 

 

maybe why coots is changing ''mind'' it is not voluntary - but coots can post his spin -here -

 

EXHIBIT 3729158

 

attachicon.gifIYRU YC CREW REQS 09.PNG

 

 

Being a member of the defending yacht club is merely a issue of paying dues.

 

Its such a non issue that whether or not it is followed is of little important.

 

Nothing at all to do with nationality .

read it again 

 

crews must be CITIZENS of the  country  in which the yacht was built - 

 

that is nationality - 

 

While the terms "citizenship" and "nationality" are sometimes used interchangeably, this is for political purposes rather than because there is no difference between the two. The most familiar instance of this is the use of "nationality" to denote state citizenship (as in nationality law). This is common practice for many states, under the assumption that because they are supposed to be "nation-states" (meaning that the boundaries of the nation and the state coincide), making a distinction is unnecessary – all citizens are also nationals.

 

 I did read it , do you read what you write ?  I highlighted the part I was referring to which you brought up in the first place .

 

My point was that it was easy to be come a member of a competing yacht club .

it might be true then and now to be a yc member - 

 

the main rule was/is 

 

crews must be CITIZENS of the  country  in which the yacht was built - 

 

and that is not happening now -

 

does it matter ? maybe not some folks here have posted some good points -

 

it actually gets down to THIS

 

are we going to honor the DEED OF GIFT and GLS intent 

 

and preserve some traditions 

 

or just let evilsin and demon ehman   B.O.H.I.C.A.  DEED OF GIFT again 

 

the best way to have this nationality issue resolved and some other pending issues 

 

is to have a beneficiary  [s] VOTE on it  

 

SA AC can have a poll vote on it  [ maybe they have done that ? ]



#76 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:58 PM

The 'beneficiaries' are the Clubs and nothing in the Deed proscribes any nationality requirements for Club membership.

Nationalism is a marketing cause for some; a (misbegotten) `My country is better than Yours' for others; and since it is (using the US as example) all about only a very tiny percentage of the population (white, male, sailing-career interested, etc) proves nothing at all about US superiority in much of anything even if an all-US sailing team did win.

What matters most to me about who does win is in what locale the next Cup will be held.

#77 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:24 PM

I'd be surprised if they could come up with a nationality rule that the majority agreed was fair, and accomplished whatever goal they set out to, especially here of all places.

 

It will either be too restrictive for teams without a long history of sailing and an experienced base of sailors to draw from which may preclude them from entering, or too weak for the hard core proponents/protectionists that feel their country has a disproportionate number of experienced sailors, whatever country that may be <_<

 

To add to the fun, even if they get a reasonable percentage, how exactly do you determine citizenship fairly ? Birth, citizenship, duration of citizenship ? Do they have to hold a certain position or positions on the boat, like wing trimmer :). If you want to talk nationality rules, are the designers also included ?

 

Lots of potential sticky and controversial issues. I see the mother of all political bitchfests brewing here, but would like to be wrong. 



#78 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:44 PM

how long were the last set of nationality rules in effect for, and does anyone have actual copies of the rules used?



#79 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:19 AM

how long were the last set of nationality rules in effect for, and does anyone have actual copies of the rules used?

its a trick question right ? adm clean 

 

For the 2003 event, Team New Zealand as the holder of the America's Cup, in consultation with Prada, the Challenger of Record, removed the nationality rule that stipulated that all of the crew members must be nationals of the challenging syndicate.

 

and 

 

Alinghi took full advantage of this rule change and hired many of the world's top America's Cup sailors particularly from New Zealand. New Zealanders saw the defection of key members of Team New Zealand to Alinghi as an act of disloyalty to their home country—understandable against a background of strong nationwide public support for Team New Zealand that they saw as representing their country rather than just representing the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron.



#80 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:58 AM

here is the sail world cite on nyyc histerical ''expert '' rust-mired-he is still wrong on crew nationality -

 

Excerpts from the declaration by John Rousmaniere (USA), America’s Cup historian: 


'For more than a century of America’s Cup competition, nationality concerned only yacht clubs and yacht hulls. There were no nationality restrictions on sails in the first race in 1851, when the American donors of the America’s Cup used English sails. The first formal restriction of international exchanges of sail and other technologies was not established until after the nineteenth cup regatta in 1962. That was when the then trustee, the New York Yacht Club, issued what it would call an 'interpretive resolution' limiting access to technology across national borders. Subsequently other, sometimes conflicting restrictions were imposed until all interpretive resolutions were rescinded by SNG and GGYC before the most recent cup races in 2007.' 



#81 accnick

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:34 AM

Actually, John Rousmaniere is one of the premiere AC historians. As I recall, the excerpt cited above was from a submission solely about sail technology and nationality issues during the somewhat acrimonious hearings leading up to AC 33, when Oracle was trying to prevent Alinghi from using 3DL sail technology for the DOG match in 2010. There were several nationality issues raised at that time, but they centered around CIC for yachts and equipment, not the nationality of crews.



#82 fireball

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:12 AM

The 1995 AC had a shit fight over whether Peter Gilmour could steer the Japanese boat Nippon Challenge. Eventually, Gilmour was ruled ineligible and instead the boat was steered by John Cutler - a New Zealander born in the UK.

 

Next time around Gilmour satisfied the residency requirements and steered Nippon Challenge in 2000.

 

The nationality rules were a farce before they were removed in 2003. Why bring them back?



#83 SW Sailor

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:20 AM

Agreed - what a mess, but as the resident authoratarian on AC matters, MSP knew this, right ? :)

 

.

Resolution adopted by the Board of Trustees on July 15, 1980

(The "1980 Resolutions")

AND AMENDED ON MARCH 9, 1982

(The "1982 Amendments")

WHEREAS by Resolution adopted March 27, 1958 (the "1958 Resolution") this Board interpreted the word "constructed" as used in the Deed of Gift of the America’s Cup (the Deed of Gift") to mean "designed and built"; and

WHEREAS by Resolutions adopted December 7, 1962 (the "1962 Resolution") this Board set forth its interpretation of the words "designed and built" as used in the 1958 Resolution and set forth certain procedures relation to the application of such interpretation; and

WHEREAS because of the great increase in recent years in the exchange among the world’s yachtsmen, yacht designers, yacht builders and sailmakers of technology, techniques, material and facilities for the design and construction of yachts, their rigs and their sails, the interpretations set forth in the 1962 Resolutions are no longer workable or meaningful;

WHEREAS the purposes of the Deed of Gift, particularly the provision thereof that the America’s Cup "shall be preserved as a perpetual Challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries", will be furthered by a requirement that the members of a candidate’s crew shall be nationals of the country in which the club represented by the candidate is located; it is

RESOLVED that he 1962 Resolutions be, and the same herby are rescinded; and

RESOLVED that the 1958 Resolution be, and the same hereby is, ratified and confirmed; and

RESOLVED that for the purposes of the 1958 Resolution:

A yacht shall be deemed to be "designed" in a country if the designers of the yacht’s hull, rig and sails shall be nationals of that country; and A yacht shall be deemed to be "built" in a country in a country if the hull of the yacht, including all framing and all planking, plating or other form of surfacing of the hull, shall be fabricated and assembled, and if the yacht’s sails shall be manufactured, in that country; provided that the foregoing provisions of this clause ( B) shall not prevent the modification of the hull of any challenger, or candidate, in the country in which an America’s Cup Match is to take place so long as the modification or manufacture (i) is effected when the challenger or candidate is in such country and (ii) meets the requirements of clause (a) above; and RESOLVED, that notwithstanding the provisions of the foregoing resolution, any yacht which was eligible as a candidate for the America’s Cup Match in 1980 shall continue to be eligible thereafter provided that any material modification of the hull, rig or sails thereof shall be designed in accordance with the requirements of clause (a) of the foregoing resolution and any material modification of the hull thereof shall be completed in accordance with the requirements of clause ( B) of the foregoing resolution; and

[Rescinded July 1, 1980]

RESOLVED that, for a candidate to be eligible for an America’s Cup Match in any year subsequent to 1980, every member of the candidate’s crew must be a national of the country in which the club represented by the candidate is located; and

RESOLVED that henceforth any reference to the Deed of Gift shall be deemed to include reference to the 1985[sic] Resolution and to these Resolutions, which shall hereafter be known as the "1980 Resolutions" and that whenever hereafter the Deed of Gift is printed or otherwise reproduced, the 1958 Resolution and the 1980 Resolutions shall be printed or reproduced as an integral part thereof.

Footnotes in Amplification

(March 9, 1982)

1.The requirements that a person be a national will be satisfied if the person is domiciled in, or has a principal place of residence in, or has a valid passport of that country since January 1, 1982. [Rescinded May 1984 and replaced with revised words]

2.Designers of sails may cooperate on an international basis until March 1, 1982; after which date, sail designers of different countries may not collaborate. Sail designs done before that date may be copied exactly, while after that date the designers in a company may use the computer system and data bank of pre March 1982 date freely but must not put back into the system post March 1, 1982 information and must execute nationally independent sail designs [Rescinded May 15, 1984]

(2) (3) A foreign designer—however he is designated—participating in the design of a boat or a sail would violate both the letter and spirit of the above Resolution, and any boat or sail so designed would be ineligible for use in America’s Cup competition. Similarly, a hull or sails which are merely copies of those of a foreign designer would also be ineligible for use in America’s Cup competition.

[Renumbered (2) May 15, 1984]

Regardless of whether a challenge has been accepted by the Defending Club in the belief that a boat complies with the Deed of Gift and subsequent Interpretive Resolutions, such acceptance does not immunize the boat form being challenged as to eligibility by another Challenging Club.

Vincent Monte-Sano, II Secretary

Resolutions adopted by the America's Cup Committee of the Royal Perth Yacht Club on May 15, 1984 - (The "First 1984 Resolutions")

WHERAS by resolution adopted July 15, 1980 and duly amended on March 9, 1982, to which Footnotes were included in amplification of such amendments (The "1982 Amendments") the then Board of Trustees noted that "The requirement that a person be a national will be satisfied if the person is domiciled in, or as a principal place of residence in, or had a valid passport of that country since January 1, 1982"; and

WHEREAS such note, by its slated date, has been interpreted to apply to the 1983 Challenge Match only; and

WHEREAS the 1987 and future Challenges for the America’s Cup would be better served by a definition which would be applicable to all challenges beyond the 1983 Challenge Match; and

WHEREAS it is considered that two years provides a reasonable residential or documentary period for definition of a national; it is

RESOLVED that Footnote (1) of the 1982 Amendments be, and the same hereby is rescinded; and

RESOLVED that Footnote (1) of the 1982 Amendments be, and the same hereby replaced with the words "The requirement that a person be a national will be satisfied if the person has been domiciled in, or has had a principal place of residence in, or has had a valid passport of that country for no shorter period than the two years before the date of the first race of the applicable America’s Cup Match" [Amended July 1, 1990]; and

RESOLVED that henceforth any reference to the Deed of Gift shall be deemed to include reference to these Resolutions, which shall hereafter be known as the "First 1984 Resolutions," and that whenever hereafter the Deed of Gift is printed or otherwise reproduced, as reproduced, the Second 1984 Resolutions shall be printed or reproduced as an integral part thereof.

D. Noel Robins Executive Director



#84 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:27 AM

Actually, John Rousmaniere is one of the premiere AC historians. As I recall, the excerpt cited above was from a submission solely about sail technology and nationality issues during the somewhat acrimonious hearings leading up to AC 33, when Oracle was trying to prevent Alinghi from using 3DL sail technology for the DOG match in 2010. There were several nationality issues raised at that time, but they centered around CIC for yachts and equipment, not the nationality of crews.

Attached File  AC NATIONALTY OF CREWS DISCLOSURE 001.PNG   735.94K   14 downloads



#85 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 04:13 AM

To add to the fun, how exactly do you determine citizenship fairly ?

Ask the US immigration.



#86 jhc

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 04:16 AM

To add to the fun, how exactly do you determine citizenship fairly ?

Ask the US immigration.

...or ask Bruce Springsteen...



#87 bluesea

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 04:46 AM

+1

I'd like to see sailor nationality remain a syndicate choice not some kind of problematic legislation that quickly leads to questions about all other aspects of the manufacture, design and funding sources. It's completely counterproductive to having the best teams possible getting fielded.

 

 

Agree. It should come from a sense of desire, belief or not at all.

 

Bill Koch was the last to get it right. I doubt there was any question in his mind to look offshore for his helm.  



#88 grs

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 05:44 AM

it doesn't matter. nationality rules are completely arbitrary and it will come down to might via the cheque book, preparation and sheer determination.



#89 WetHog

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:38 PM

@SWS

No I do not think rules should be made to limit teams to sponsors specific to their country of origin. I just think a nationality rule will make teams more attractive to sponsors of their specific countries. And to get a healthy collection of teams participating in today's global economy every sponsorship dollar counts.

Let me clarify my position on nationality. I will follow the AC no matter what the format and rules are. I just feel strongly that a nationality rule can only enhance the AC in a positive way. From sponsorship to promoting AC participation around the globe, adding nationality can help achieve those goals.

I could elaborate more, but typing on an iPhone on a Monday morning makes that not possible for me right now. ;)

WetHog

#90 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:28 PM



No I do not think rules should be made to limit teams to sponsors specific to their country of origin. I just think a nationality rule will make teams more attractive to sponsors of their specific countries. And to get a healthy collection of teams participating in today's global economy every sponsorship dollar counts.

Let me clarify my position on nationality. I will follow the AC no matter what the format and rules are. I just feel strongly that a nationality rule can only enhance the AC in a positive way. From sponsorship to promoting AC participation around the globe, adding nationality can help achieve those goals.



WetHog

+ 1



#91 edouard

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:58 PM

@SWS

No I do not think rules should be made to limit teams to sponsors specific to their country of origin. I just think a nationality rule will make teams more attractive to sponsors of their specific countries. And to get a healthy collection of teams participating in today's global economy every sponsorship dollar counts.

Let me clarify my position on nationality. I will follow the AC no matter what the format and rules are. I just feel strongly that a nationality rule can only enhance the AC in a positive way. From sponsorship to promoting AC participation around the globe, adding nationality can help achieve those goals.

I could elaborate more, but typing on an iPhone on a Monday morning makes that not possible for me right now. ;)

WetHog

 

I really don't see how nationality rules would help promote the AC around the globe. I.e. the current reservoir of experienced sailors and designers capable of mounting a serious challenge is restricted to a relatively small number of countries and sponsors won't be eager to finance teams to get trampled on.



#92 SW Sailor

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 05:49 PM

@SWS

No I do not think rules should be made to limit teams to sponsors specific to their country of origin. I just think a nationality rule will make teams more attractive to sponsors of their specific countries. And to get a healthy collection of teams participating in today's global economy every sponsorship dollar counts.

Let me clarify my position on nationality. I will follow the AC no matter what the format and rules are. I just feel strongly that a nationality rule can only enhance the AC in a positive way. From sponsorship to promoting AC participation around the globe, adding nationality can help achieve those goals.

I could elaborate more, but typing on an iPhone on a Monday morning makes that not possible for me right now. ;)

WetHog

 

No worries - point understood.

 

The devil is likely in the details of a nationality rule - hopefully it won't turn into a political football based on how it's structured.



#93 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 06:16 PM

@SWS

No I do not think rules should be made to limit teams to sponsors specific to their country of origin. I just think a nationality rule will make teams more attractive to sponsors of their specific countries. And to get a healthy collection of teams participating in today's global economy every sponsorship dollar counts.

Let me clarify my position on nationality. I will follow the AC no matter what the format and rules are. I just feel strongly that a nationality rule can only enhance the AC in a positive way. From sponsorship to promoting AC participation around the globe, adding nationality can help achieve those goals.

I could elaborate more, but typing on an iPhone on a Monday morning makes that not possible for me right now. ;)

WetHog

 

I really don't see how nationality rules would help promote the AC around the globe. I.e. s the current reservoir of experienced sailors and designers capable of mounting a serious challenge is restricted to a relatively small number of countries and sponsors won't be eager to finance teams to get trampled on.

Some kind of nationality clause for designers would also allow to level the playing field, preventing one or two rich teams to concentrate them all, whatever their nationality.



#94 Titan Uranus

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:03 PM

SoRry to burst so many fuck wits bubble here but...

the AC is not a contest between Yacht clubs!... why

well no yacht club could afford to challenge or defend the AC.

that is why it is a contest between rich Men / Sponsors!!! who use a yacht club, of their choice, to challenge/ defend. (TO MEET THE RULE REQUIREMENTS)

Oracle, ETNZ,... are not yacht clubs! they are private organizations that have the money and resources to challenge/defend. all the yacht clubs do is run around like spoilt tossers hosting other tossers and employ a few officials to run a regatta/s.

#95 WetHog

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:32 PM

@edouard

 

A way for a nationality rule for the AC to promote sailing around is the Red Bull Youth America's Cup.  Continue that program with young sailors from around the globe and those young sailors can then transition into ACWS teams as they get older and gain experience, then their parent AC teams will have what amounts to minor league teams to develop talent and in 5-10 years you can have teams from China, Korea, Abudabi, etc... mounting legit challenges with home grown talent.

 

That's the thing with implementing a nationality rule for the AC.  It is something that needs to be committed to no matter who the Defender is for the next 5, 10, 15 years.  There are many ways to do that, but there is a road map in place to make it a success.  Continue with the RBYAC and ACWS so teams that might not be ready for the actual LVC/AC can participate in either the RBYAC or ACWS or compete in both for a couple cycles until they gain the experience to mount a competitive AC challenge.  And for those teams already established like OR, AR, ETNZ and LR set a percentage they must have of national team members for AC35 and then require that percentage go up for the next cycle and the next.

 

I have more, but I must make my ladies dinner.  :P

 

WetHog  :ph34r:



#96 MAHGUAH_SCALPS_PILGRIMS

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:16 PM

"In many ways I think we are better to aim at quality rather than quantity. Right now, we have the four teams from AC34 who appear to be active, plus the Australian challenger of record. So it seems likely we can expect a minimum of five high quality teams.

Hopefully that number can be increased. For example, it would be great to have a good team from one of the Asian countries."

 

Doesn't mention BAR, which may or may not signify.

also doesnt mention nor have you - 

 

that coots has zero authority to dicktate what rules are in affect and further shows ggyc defective abuse of deed 

 

and the buying of power thru evilsin and demon ehman -

 

coots is team ceo 

 

but owns ggyc comode and members follow like sheeple - with sw soiler leading bohica volunteer -

 

:lol:

 

ggyc sheeple - sw soiler is almost living proof -''practice makes perfect '' 

 

:lol:



#97 aldo

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:28 PM


"In many ways I think we are better to aim at quality rather than quantity. Right now, we have the four teams from AC34 who appear to be active, plus the Australian challenger of record. So it seems likely we can expect a minimum of five high quality teams.
Hopefully that number can be increased. For example, it would be great to have a good team from one of the Asian countries."
 
Doesn't mention BAR, which may or may not signify.

also doesnt mention nor have you - 
 
that coots has zero authority to dicktate what rules are in affect and further shows ggyc defective abuse of deed 
 
and the buying of power thru evilsin and demon ehman -
 
coots is team ceo 
 
but owns ggyc comode and members follow like sheeple - with sw soiler leading bohica volunteer -
 
:lol:
 
ggyc sheeple - sw soiler is almost living proof -''practice makes perfect '' 
 
:lol:


Sounds like much firewater at your wigwam.

#98 ~Stingray~

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:41 PM

Coutts admitted in an interview (think it was the one with Deaker) that he played no role in the acceptance by GGYC of HIYC's Challenge, as CoR. Said he only found out about it after it had happened. Didn't seem to suggest he was ticked about that (said he was busy on other tasks trying to help the team win) but: it's possible he got his wings clipped there. And if that's true, then whatever he has going on in negotiations with HIYC may also be subject to approval by Club authority - you'd think including by Norbert and TE.

This idea suggests there may be differing views between the Club and RC over some things he is pressing for, perhaps nationality rules included; but there may be a happy confluence of agreement for all I know.

#99 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:16 AM

Was RC bypassed by TE ?



#100 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:24 AM

Was RC bypassed by TE ?

On who the Challenger was, yes - apparently so.

Again, that may not be a problem for RC but it does suggest that he doesn't have control-freak authority. It also assumes RC had someone else in mind, or has any problem with being bypassed, or with the result, none of which may be true. Was just interesting that he only learned about it after instead of before.




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