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Fiberglass repair recommendation.


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#1 Ajax

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 02:53 AM

Who's the go-to guy in the Annapolis area? It's a hull repair.

#2 Pinching

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 09:55 AM

There are many.  

Have heard good things about Muller Marine in eastport (no connection) esp for boats under 33 feet.  His hoist cannot handle bigger boats I don't think.



#3 Ajax

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:44 PM

I'll look into them. If you know of others, please post them. The more the merrier.

#4 memopad

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 02:02 PM

Uh oh Ajax, what did you do this time? ;)



#5 Trendsetter

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 03:19 PM

Let me start by saying I love muller good guy and does great bottom jobs, however I wouldn't let him touch a boat that needs structural repairs!! They may look ok for a few months but I have never seen one if his jobs hold up worth a shit.

Sadly if you want great glass work in Annapolis you have slim pickins'. If it's a. Insurance job go back down to Deale and let the boys at osprey do it or go up to Baltimore for the boys at tidewater.

Annaplois is full of a lot of guys who work from the back of there truck. Your results may very with them. I know a guy named fenelly (sp?). Drives a red dodge truck does great work but ya can't pay him until the job is done other wise you will have to go find him at Davis and hope he is sober enough to finish your job

#6 TheOffice

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 04:08 PM

Osprey Marine at Herrington North

Osprey Marine at Herrington North

#7 Ajax

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 04:42 PM

Memo-

There is a dead transducer under my v-berth, directly on the "V" of the hull. The fucking PO bedded it with JB Weld or Qwiksteel. Now, it's slowly leaking.

I'm not confident in my ability to recreate the shape of the hull there. If it were on the flat part of the hull, I'd jump right on it. Sure, I could fill in the hole, but it would look like shit and not be fair with the rest of the hull.

#8 4knotSB

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:13 PM

If it is easy to get to the transducer inside the V berth, you might really want to try this yourself. It's obviously way to cool out right now, but that just gives you a little more time to plan your attack. A quick google came up with these instructions which I used to replace a pretty big ripped out cleat (albeit above the water line. Still, it wasn't nearly as difficult as I expected.

http://www.boatus.co...lass-repair.asp

 

 

This had some interesting tidbits too: (Details on the hull construction)

http://books.google....d hull?&f=false



#9 bugger

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:07 PM

Ajax,

 

I read once somewhere on SA something like "if you follow good advice for any repair, the worst outcome is you may disappoint yourself". 

 

I say describe your problem, provide some pictures, and eventually someone will give you excellent advice on how to make the repair. 

 

You can probably do as good of a job yourself  (hey, it is *your* boat) as anyone else.

 

Go for it!



#10 memopad

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:13 PM

Memo-

There is a dead transducer under my v-berth, directly on the "V" of the hull. The fucking PO bedded it with JB Weld or Qwiksteel. Now, it's slowly leaking.

I'm not confident in my ability to recreate the shape of the hull there. If it were on the flat part of the hull, I'd jump right on it. Sure, I could fill in the hole, but it would look like shit and not be fair with the rest of the hull.

 

I dunno man I think you'd be surprised what you can do ;) I'm guessing your limitation out there would be yard time vs. your free time. Would be pretty simple to layer some glass over the hole and build it up. Once your glass is in place, mix up some fairing compound in your epoxy and goop it on to match it to the rest of the hull, sand, repeat. The hole you're patching should only be like 3 inches right? 



Ajax,

 

I read once somewhere on SA something like "if you follow good advice for any repair, the worst outcome is you may disappoint yourself". 

 

I say describe your problem, provide some pictures, and eventually someone will give you excellent advice on how to make the repair. 

 

You can probably do as good of a job yourself  (hey, it is *your* boat) as anyone else.

 

Go for it!

 

Unless you're paying out top dollar for your super-maxi repairs, I'm convinced you can do as good as most boat yards yourself. Especially for a job like this. Only limits are your free time!



#11 MW4506

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 09:40 PM

Save your money for more difficult tasks - this should be an easy fix.  In the V-Berth, use a Dremel tool and grind out some of the crap the PO used to install.  Take your time and grind it out carefully, not cutting into the transducer.  Then mix up a slurry of West System Epoxy and a microfiber additive (to thicken it up), and mini-trowel it around the transducer, and it will harden up, seal properly, and be just fine.



#12 Ajax

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:42 PM

MW-

Yes, my worst case scenario is to simply rebed the dead transducer and thru-hull.

#13 Estar

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:02 PM

Ajax, I agree, this is not difficult.  You can easily do it, if you have the time.

 

Pop out the old transducer one way or the other.

 

Grind the inside of the hole at a 1:12 taper. Make sure you have all clean glass, and rag out all the dust.

 

Tape something smooth, that will conform to the hull shape, over the outside of the hole - some people use milk jug plastic, some people just use a couple layers of duck tape. Just make sure it will not sag when the resin heats up.

 

You can use simple polyester resin for this. Vinylester and epoxy will give you extra properties but you don't really need them.

 

Put a layer of chop strand mat in first. Let it cook off and remove the plastic/tape from the outside.

 

Then build up with alternating cloth and mat, progressively bigger to fill the taper. Note: by the way, if the laminate is really thick, some 'experts' epoxy a round precured plug (glass or simply filled epoxy) into the hole to let you do the job with fewer layers of laminating.

 

Let cure.

 

The one area I disagree with don Casey (in the link above) is for below waterline repairs I think you should bond to both sides rather than just the inside side of the hull, just for safety.

 

So, now grind back a taper on the outside and laminate in 1 layer of mat, 1 layer of cloth and then a finish layer of mat (you can do more depending on what is necessary to slightly overfill the taper you ground out, but that's probably enough)

 

That repair should be a pretty close fit to the hull if you got the outside plastic conforming nicely and did a clean smooth job on the outside laminates.  But you can now build it up with either something like marinetex or chopped mat and then shape it with a grinder and sander to make it 'a perfect invisible fit'.

 

You could do it in an afternoon. . . .two afternoons would be better to let stuff cure.



#14 Ajax

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:55 PM

Ok. Which one of you geniuses is going to come help me un-fuck it, when I start screwing it up and ask for help?

#15 Ishmael

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:02 AM

Ok. Which one of you geniuses is going to come help me un-fuck it, when I start screwing it up and ask for help?

 

 All I need is airfare. :)



#16 Estar

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:05 AM

You know I am happy to . . . just call

 

I specialize in project management, sitting in a chair with a beer in my hand :)

 

But, I have actually gotten my hands dirty and done this job a time or two.

 

It would help if you had a  fiberglass roller

 

I hate grinding fiberglass . . .I will leave that to you.

 

 

I have been cutting, drilling and tapping aluminum all weekend .

 

Attached File  bench.JPG   179.99K   52 downloads



#17 4knotSB

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:58 AM

Whatever is excess gets sanded off, what could go wrong? :rolleyes:



#18 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 01:32 AM

I would seriously be fine with an experienced person guiding and correcting me while I do all of the work. After doing it once, I'll be ok.

#19 spin echo

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 01:37 AM

If you know how to use sandpaper, you should do fine.

 

Here is a link with some illustrated videos:

 

http://boatworkstoday.com/



#20 dreaded

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:28 AM

I would seriously be fine with an experienced person guiding and correcting me while I do all of the work. After doing it once, I'll be ok.

 

 

it should be fairly easy..  just think of it as a round hold that has a bend in the middle..   the question remains, are you going to take the whole thing out or replace what's there with new equipment.. 



#21 dash34

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:35 AM

You can do it all in one go with polyester resin, if you don't go too fast.  Grind in a taper on both sides of the hole, for a 2" hole in about 1/2" of glass the taper should end up about 6" in diameter (12:1).  Get some mold release wax (borrow, don't buy, you won't need much) and coat a piece of smooth hard linoleum with the wax - you can get a piece at the local building materials recycling place if you don't have one.  Place the lino wax-side up on the outside of the hole.  Jam it in place with whatever works.

 

Start the layup from the inside by placing some wetted out 6 oz cloth down in the hole.  The cloth will have to be a circle as big as the outer edge of the taper.  You'll have to have some kind of instrument for poking it flat since the cloth will have to be pushed down through the hole.  Smooth it out as best you can. 

 

Then start placing more layers of thicker cloth on top, or just keep going with the 6 oz for a few more layers, whatever is easier.  You can just place them on top of the existing layers and wet them out with a brush.  Make sure they are fully wetted out.  Monitor the temperature - stop if things appear to be getting too hot.  You will probably need to stop every 30 minutes or so and have a coffee or a beer to let the laminate cook off.  

 

Keep adding layers until you have filled up the hole and started on the inner taper.  Pre-cut pieces of cloth will help here.  When you have reached the top few layers start using a roller to get it smooth and get the bubbles out.  

 

Let it cure, remove the lino, you will have a small amount of fairing to do around the edge of the taper on the outside.  Epoxy + cotton fibres will do nicely.  Sand to taste.

 

Done.

 

This method was used to fill in the hole where my saildrive used to be when I converted my boat to an outboard, and it was the first time I had done anything like this.  It was easy.  A half day's work at the most.  Worst case?  You grind it all out and start again. 

 

dash



#22 memopad

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:50 AM

I would seriously be fine with an experienced person guiding and correcting me while I do all of the work. After doing it once, I'll be ok.

 

Ajax, I cut the deck off my boat, recored, reglassed, and repainted the thing with 0 prior experience armed with nothing but help from this forum. You can do it!



#23 memopad

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:51 AM

I like what Estar is describing. Grab a beer in one hand, an angle grinder in the other, and get to work.



#24 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:55 AM

Ok. Which one of you geniuses is going to come help me un-fuck it, when I start screwing it up and ask for help?

 

Gimme a day or two notice, and I'll be happy to swing by and fetch the tools you throw... You're in Edgewater, right?  That's only about 1.5 hours from my office in Springfield. 



#25 BobBill

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:04 PM

Gee, Ajax you got what you need, save willingness to tackle it...Dreaded and Guy in Chesapeake and Dash34, +1. Not hard.



#26 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:24 PM

I would seriously be fine with an experienced person guiding and correcting me while I do all of the work. After doing it once, I'll be ok.

 

 

it should be fairly easy..  just think of it as a round hold that has a bend in the middle..   the question remains, are you going to take the whole thing out or replace what's there with new equipment.. 

 

Dread-

There is already a new, non-penetrating transducer installed nearby. This through-hull should be removed and filled.

 

Question:

Why are you guys recommending the use of polyester resin, instead of epoxy? I was in a recent discussion where I was told that -ester resins have a poor secondary bond to old fiberglass and resin, and that epoxy (such as West Systems) have a much stronger mechanical bond to previous fiberglass work.

 

Money is not really my issue here. I'm willing to pay for all the West Systems necessary to do the job right. All past attempts at cosmetic fiberglass work has resulted in total crap, especially where gravity was involved (working upside down). Which only brings out more questions:

 

What types of cloth? Some kind of bi-axial cloth, or just woven roving, alternated with CSM?

What weight of cloth?

Should the final exterior layer be CSM to avoid print-through, or will I be slathering on epoxy loaded with enough filler to hide the weave?

Am I supposed to paint this with barrier coat when I'm done, before I put on anti-foul?

 

I watched a Youtube video where a guy repaired a crash hole on a Laser. He used automotive Bondo to achieve the final fairing, but only because the boat is hauled from the water after each use. For the final fairing, do I just use one of the 400 series of West fillers? Which one is most appropriate for this job?



#27 memopad

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 01:38 PM

I'd definitely use epoxy. 

 

I wouldn't use just roving or csm, you could get away with just using cloth (biaxial or otherwise). I don't know what the perfect material would be for this job but it isn't really a structural repair, maybe someone else will chime in here. The West System guides have a great bit about repairing a hole in a hull. You could follow that almost exactly and get good results. Only difference is you're working in a thicker area of the hull.



#28 MW4506

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 01:54 PM

If you are intent on removing and closing the hole (versus leaving it and repairing the leak), then first find a good square piece of smooth thin plastic (like from a heavy-duty freezer bag, about an inch bigger than the hole,  and tape it down tightly to the exterior of the hull.  That will take care of what you experienced with previous gravity issues.  Then patch from the inside using West System and cloth.  If you are paranoid, over-do it on the inside with extra overlap at the inside surface level.  It will be bullet proof with West System and cloth, and who cares what it looks like on the inside.  After it cures, peel the plastic off the outside,  It should already pretty much conform to the shape of the hull, and require only minimal light wet sanding.  If that isn't perfect enough, a little lightweight microfiber fairing stuff mixed with a little more epoxy smeared over the area and re-sanding (like fairing a part of your keel) is all that would be needed.  Having someone else fix this for you is like calling an electrician to change a light bulb.  This is an easy fix. 



#29 BobBill

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:10 PM

Ajax. I am beginning to get it. Epoxy is fine if not best...

 

Bondo on a Laser may do for a bit, but, considering any boat, even a Laser, supports a crew, keeping them or it from harm's way...always the prime consideration...safety...

 

I am imagining a simple through-hull opening, smooth...and I believe the West site and many others herein and elsewhere have simple methods to fill the spot.

 

I would consider the simplest relative to the hull thickness and the sandwich possible, including carbon patches inside and out, with layers and/or epoxy mix. In that I will defer to Vegas, Epoxymoron, Major Tom and Steve Clark, if they wish to contribute. Epoxymoron is associated with Epoxyworks and knows the product...



#30 BobBill

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:15 PM

If you are intent on removing and closing the hole (versus leaving it and repairing the leak), then first find a good square piece of smooth thin plastic (like from a heavy-duty freezer bag, about an inch bigger than the hole,  and tape it down tightly to the exterior of the hull.  That will take care of what you experienced with previous gravity issues.  Then patch from the inside using West System and cloth.  If you are paranoid, over-do it on the inside with extra overlap at the inside surface level.  It will be bullet proof with West System and cloth, and who cares what it looks like on the inside.  After it cures, peel the plastic off the outside,  It should already pretty much conform to the shape of the hull, and require only minimal light wet sanding.  If that isn't perfect enough, a little lightweight microfiber fairing stuff mixed with a little more epoxy smeared over the area and re-sanding (like fairing a part of your keel) is all that would be needed.  Having someone else fix this for you is like calling an electrician to change a light bulb.  This is an easy fix. 

Yes, Makes sense to me. +1.



#31 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 02:42 PM

If you are intent on removing and closing the hole (versus leaving it and repairing the leak), then first find a good square piece of smooth thin plastic (like from a heavy-duty freezer bag, about an inch bigger than the hole,  and tape it down tightly to the exterior of the hull.  That will take care of what you experienced with previous gravity issues.  Then patch from the inside using West System and cloth.  If you are paranoid, over-do it on the inside with extra overlap at the inside surface level.  It will be bullet proof with West System and cloth, and who cares what it looks like on the inside.  After it cures, peel the plastic off the outside,  It should already pretty much conform to the shape of the hull, and require only minimal light wet sanding.  If that isn't perfect enough, a little lightweight microfiber fairing stuff mixed with a little more epoxy smeared over the area and re-sanding (like fairing a part of your keel) is all that would be needed.  Having someone else fix this for you is like calling an electrician to change a light bulb.  This is an easy fix. 

 

Your plan is the one I like the best, as it allows me to work inside the hull, where my mess will be hidden.  I want to do the least amount of work on the outside of the hull, because my cosmetics skills are absolute crap.

 

The interior of the original hull, shows a very large weave cloth. I have no idea what is in the intermediate layers. I need solid recommendations on what kind of cloth to use.  I barely even understand what "biaxial", woven roving and CSM means.



#32 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:29 PM

If you are intent on removing and closing the hole (versus leaving it and repairing the leak), then first find a good square piece of smooth thin plastic (like from a heavy-duty freezer bag, about an inch bigger than the hole,  and tape it down tightly to the exterior of the hull.  That will take care of what you experienced with previous gravity issues.  Then patch from the inside using West System and cloth.  If you are paranoid, over-do it on the inside with extra overlap at the inside surface level.  It will be bullet proof with West System and cloth, and who cares what it looks like on the inside.  After it cures, peel the plastic off the outside,  It should already pretty much conform to the shape of the hull, and require only minimal light wet sanding.  If that isn't perfect enough, a little lightweight microfiber fairing stuff mixed with a little more epoxy smeared over the area and re-sanding (like fairing a part of your keel) is all that would be needed.  Having someone else fix this for you is like calling an electrician to change a light bulb.  This is an easy fix. 

 

Your plan is the one I like the best, as it allows me to work inside the hull, where my mess will be hidden.  I want to do the least amount of work on the outside of the hull, because my cosmetics skills are absolute crap.

 

The interior of the original hull, shows a very large weave cloth. I have no idea what is in the intermediate layers. I need solid recommendations on what kind of cloth to use.  I barely even understand what "biaxial", woven roving and CSM means.

 A DA Sander with coarse paper will turn a minor "mess" on the outside of the hull fair pretty quickly.  Finish with a low density filler and sand with a mid sized long board.  I like 3M Vinlyester marine filler for final fairing as it cures quickly (just like polyester) and sands pretty easily.  I used some over a cradle ding on a lead keel 12 years ago and it is still sound and the repair is invisible under bottom paint.  

 

Essentially, all the recommendations you are getting say the same thing.  Grind to clean glass with an adequate chamfer.  Use coarse paper/wheel to leave an aggressive tooth. Use a backer with mold release or wax.  Build up multiple layers of CSM and cloth in sizes that follow the taper.  

 

I prefer to chamfer both sides and start on one side until a green cure of the lowest layer then remove the backer and do the other side so that the repair "clamps" the hole from both sides. The green cure gives you a solid surface to bond to but the new epoxy will cross link to and bond thoroughly to the green cure material.  

 

If you do this during a spring haul out, it's about 2 days at 1-2 hours/day tops using epoxy.  You can grind and lay the patch day one.  Fair/fill/fair day 2.  Final fair and paint later on day 2 or day 3.  You can do it all in one day using polyester but I'm really a fan of epoxy for secondary bonds.  Sand, prep, mask and paint the bottom while the epoxy is curing.  



#33 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:55 PM

What is a green cure?  Kicked, but not totally solid?

 

I understand to alternate CSM with cloth. In absence of recommendations, I guess I'll go with a heavy weight cloth.

Should the final, exterior layer of fabric be CSM to avoid the weave showing through, or does it not matter because I'll be applying filler and fairing material?



#34 Slick470

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:13 PM

I'll add, do not use automotive bondo for this. It will absorb water and swell and cause your fairing job to fail unless you can seal it completely. On a car this is possible, on a boat, below the waterline, I wouldn't chance it.  

 

It is however great for fairing damaged wood trim in your house. (or plugging up a old kitty door hole in a solid wood door that you want to keep because it matches the rest of the 60 yo doors in your house)



#35 dreaded

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:28 PM

ok, I'm seeing a lot of advice to repair the hole from the inside...  this is not what I've read here before and not what west system recommends...   hole repairs / patches are to be fixed from the outside of the hull    I sure as hell wouldn't want a patch on the V of my bow on the inside especially if that's a point that might make contact with something in the water, nothing like having your plug knocked out inadvertently...      I would want the force of the water pushing the patch against the hull, not away from it..

 

chapter 4.3  in the west system guide  is where you need to start if you have not read it already ajax..

 

http://www.westsyste...Maintenance.pdf

 

the rest of the guides..

 

http://www.westsyste.../ss/use-guides/

 

 

give west systems a call,  866-937-8797 ,  they'll  help you with everything..



#36 MW4506

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:28 PM

If you pour a thin amount of epoxy into the hole from the inside before you stick any cloth in, that layer will become your exterior face, and you won't have any cloth fibers to contend with if you have to do any sanding.  



#37 BobBill

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:30 PM

Never Bondo...and, a question, is CSM, chopped mat, nec? Why not layered glass, with successive layers added to tacky layer (green) and so on, and finish cover of peelply etc. (I see replies in progress as I type...) not so sure my idea of hole to be filled is same as actual...but the idea is resonant.



#38 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:39 PM

Bob-

 

Yes, CSM is chopped mat. I've read that the typical 4kt shitbox hull is constructed of alternate layers of woven roving and CSM with the final layer being CSM to avoid the weave showing through the gelcoat.

 

This may not be a problem for me, if I use enough filler, paint the spot with barrier coat and anti-fouling. I dunno. Not getting any solid answers on that question.

 

Ok, repairing from the inside may not be wise, as the patch could blow into the boat. Plus, I have a structural member inside the boat, adjacent to the hole, that precludes grinding a 12:1 bevel, 360 degrees around the hole. This means that I probably MUST do the repair from outside.

 

The glass could be nearly an inch thick at the apex of the V, meaning I'll need to grind a one foot friggin circle into my hull.



#39 memopad

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:43 PM

Biaxial glass just has fibers running in multiple directions. You can get it in 45 degree and 90 degree variations usually. Again, not important for this repair. You can use a unidirectional cloth here, just turn it 90 degrees for each layer you add if you want the "bi" directional weave ;) I would probably hit this from the out side not inside. You're going to be fairing the outside no matter what you do, so just go from the outside. 



#40 memopad

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:45 PM

If you want to match hull thickness, go from both sides then. Half and half, you won't have to bevel 12inches, just 6 right? Don't worry about using roving and CSM. Just simple cloth will do. Have any left overs from other projects?



#41 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:51 PM

I cannot grind 6 inches around on the interior of the hull. There is a glassed in bulkhead, immediately adjacent to the hole (aft).

I can only grind 180 degrees around the hole.



#42 Estar

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:52 PM

Ajax, 
 
How thick is the hull here?  I am assuming it is pretty thick, which means that we don't have to do a really fancy repair. Edit: if its an inch thick that's great - some people would epoxy a 1/4" or 1/2" thick puck into the hole (not sure if that's possible or not with your V shape) to reduce the layups - 1/4" of layup on both sides is more than enough.
 
Epoxy is technically better.  Polyester is 'good enough' and quicker and cheaper. Your choice.
 
CSM sands really nicely, saturates with resin really well, does not print thru (and is cheap 'bulk' when you have a thick laminate).  It is however not strong.
 
As to cloth, just go to the chandler and get whatever they have. They will have something like a 15oz biax.  It really honestly does not matter with this repair. 
 
It is a simple repair and if I were doing it I would go with quick and easy in all the choices . . .EXCEPT . . . .I do think you need some repair on the outside.  Just repairing it from the inside would 'probably' be ok, but would make me uncomfortable. Some cloth on the outside makes it bullet proof. A bit overfilled patch with CSM/polyester resin on the outside is easy to shape/smooth with a grinder/sander (as is epoxy filler).
 
A 6" circle bevel (on both sides) is plenty. 
 
Edit: yes, do paint with barrier coat.  Probably not necessary if you do the repair with epoxy, but can't hurt.  Will help blend the repair into the rest of the bottom.. And you may have some exposed original hull laminate, which I presume is polyester, where you do want the barrier coat.


#43 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:53 PM

Here's a top-down view of the problem.

 

There's a thick, glassed-in bulkhead or dam under the cabin sole/liner. The hole is immediately forward of this bulkhead, so you can only grind around about 180 degrees around the hole, on the inside of the hull.

Attached Files



#44 Ishmael

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 04:56 PM

If you do use epoxy, don't use CSM: the mat does not wet out properly with epoxy. One yard of 6 or 10-oz cloth will give you all the material you need to fill the hole. I wouldn't take the 12:1 bevel as gospel, if you can't make it in one section just give whatever setback you can. Because of the increased strength properties of epoxy you can get by with less structural thickness so your extreme outside layers could be entirely fairing, so you aren't sanding cloth. A mixture of 406/410 will make it so it doesn't drip out the hole but it will still sand or grind relatively easily. Make sure you put a couple of coats of neat epoxy over the filler to totally waterproof it.



#45 BobBill

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:34 PM

I would go with Ishmael's take. CSM sucks up resin and offers little strength...I am still having a bit of a problem imagining the repairs, but if this opening is less than a foot in dia, should not be too difficult. Remember, epoxy is very strong, when used with appropriate materials, like glass and carbon, and you can alternate layers to be biaxial etc.

 

There are examples galore...

 

I would advise this, even if practiced:

 

Make a list of tools and materials needed and check it twice at least;

 

Make another list of the procedure or process as well.

 

Once you start, finding later that you missed cutting a piece or are short resin/hardener, etc, it can be messy and turn the process upside down...as most of us who play with building and glass know.

 

You are, in a sense, dealing with serious stuff...though not so mysterious.



#46 JACO

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:34 PM

I would never ever use polyester resin below the waterline. 

Nor would I trust a shop that does.

If your timeline precludes epoxy use a vinylester resin.



#47 BobBill

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:58 PM

Yes epoxy is the ticket, but poly does work...I mean, aren't all glass boats poly? But, repairs are best epoxy, no doubt...better slow and safe, then wet and so on.



#48 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:19 PM

Ok, the good information that I've finally got from this thread:

 

- Skip the CSM with epoxy.

- Anywhere from 10-15 oz cloth.

- Rotate to get the biaxial effect.

- It is acceptable to grind back 6 inches inside and outside of the hull, even though I can't get the full 360 degrees inside the hull.

- Epoxy is good.

- 406 and 410 fillers.

- Barrier coat.

 

Estar- Yes, i think the hull is going to be pretty thick there, and I might end up doing the epoxy puck. I woud do the inside/outside repair not only for security's sake, but also because it lets me only grind a 6" bevel on the outside. That's less filling, sanding, fairing and painting.

 

Grinding the bevel inside the boat, is going to be difficult and require a small grinder. It's cramped, even when I rip out the V-berth and potable water system.  Thank God I don't have a holding tank or black water hoses to contend with.



#49 dash34

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:22 PM

There is one problem with using epoxy for this job.  Epoxy in thick layers can start to exotherm to the point of smoking and a poor bond.  The solution is to stop and let it cure from time to time.  However, if it cures too much, you now have an amine blush on the surface that somehow needs to be removed to ensure a good bond between the layers.  Hard to do in a hole.

 

So, while epoxy would normally be the material of choice, polyester will be just as good because the bevel on both sides will lock the lamination in place.  Because of this, bonding with the existing laminate isn't really much of an issue with either material.  However, if epoxy is used, and the job stops in the middle, there is a possibility of a poor bond between the layers of epoxy due to the amine blush.

 

Bottom line, if using epoxy, don't take a lunch break.  Epoxy will definitely be nicer to work with inside the boat than polyester.  I find that it is a little harder to get epoxy to completely wet out thicker cloth, so I would stick to lighter cloth, or completely wet out the cloth before putting it on the repair, which is messy. 

 

dash



#50 dash34

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:26 PM

....

 

Grinding the bevel inside the boat, is going to be difficult and require a small grinder. It's cramped, even when I rip out the V-berth and potable water system.  Thank God I don't have a holding tank or black water hoses to contend with.

 

Borrow a dremel tool - for a small amount of work like this in cramped quarters it will be easier to control and less likely to produce damage than a grinder.

 

good luck!

 

dash



#51 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 06:26 PM

Based on what I watched on various Youtube videos, I'll have all of the cloth ovals or discs pre-cut and other necessary materials pre-staged so that I don't have to stop.

 

If I use a slower hardener, will that help keep the temperatures down?  I also hope to do this in the spring, when temperatures are low to start with.



#52 dreaded

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:24 PM

If I use a slower hardener, will that help keep the temperatures down?  I also hope to do this in the spring, when temperatures are low to start with.

 

No  slow hardener means you get a longer working time...   

 

the pieces of glass cloth in the patch is going to give the epoxy the additional strength and it takes up enough space so you don't have a large glob of epoxy in a small area which may exotherm..    

 

 to see am example of epoxy heating up...   take 2oz's of  WS 105 and the appropriate amount of hardener into a  6oz plastic solo wine cup and mix it up...    don't ask me how I know..      

 

you know once you do this, you're going to be looking around the boat and seeing what else you can fix..   good luck and have fun

 

also you'll want..

  go  to harbor freight and buy a bunch of cheap rubber coated gloves to wear while you're doing all this 

  buy a couple of bottles of 90% isopropyl alcohol ,  it will clean up the epoxy resin.. 

  bunch of stir sticks from west systems..   they're very handy

  plastic paint mixing cups for mixing the epoxy... ( the epoxy once hardened will pop right out )

  plastic sheeting and packaging tape to keep epoxy off everything you don't want epoxied..



#53 Ajax

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:51 PM

Dread-

 

I appreciate the explanation about the hardener.

I have done some work with WS epoxy in the past. I've recored a power boat transom, a locker hatch and a cosmetic hood over a sliding companionway hatch, all with WS.

 

In all three cases, the stuff was very structurally sound. The powerboat transom was a cosmetic disaster. I was unable to lay up a new skin that didn't look like total shit. This is my big fear with this repair.



#54 dreaded

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:55 PM

no worries then, sandpaper  and fairing filler will be your friend..



#55 bugger

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:15 PM

Ajax,

 

I would like to step back for a second:  I was part of the chorus encouraging you to take this on yourself (I am a complete amateur and I have done jobs similar to this, so I am encouraging you as well). 

 

I think the consensus here is:

 

- just roughing up the area around the hole and slapping some plain old fibreglass would probably be an adequate solution.

- choosing the right materials, grinding to form a bevel, and planning your work is a good solution

- making a patch from both sides, a plan for the specific types and order of cloth, identifying the best resin, etc, will lead to an excellent solution

 

If you had gone to a yard, there is probably no way for you to know what was done, what materials, etc. and not much ability to determine if the solution was adequate, good or excellent. 

 

Doing the work yourself, I think you can know you have an excellent solution.  And if cosmetically it isn't perfect, well, there is no guarantee a yard would do any better.  With time and effort, you can make your repair look good or do like I do - just hide the imperfections  :) 

 

Congratulations on taking this on!



#56 memopad

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 08:36 PM

The beveling around the hole is partially to get a good bond with the new material, and mostly to blend the repair area in with the rest of the hull structurally. This isn't a structural repair so don't worry so much about it. Your boat is perfectly happy having the hole in there now, no loss of strength, everything is happy. Essentially you're just plugging this hole to keep the water out, not adding strength back to the area. So bevel what you can, whatever looks good to your eye will be fine. You just need enough of an edge so you can layer some glass in there so each layer is inside the previous. Easy peasy. Don't forget to put the biggest piece of cloth in first, and end with the smallest!



#57 stickboy

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 02:44 AM

I'm not convinced you need to make a large area bevel, especially on the inside. On the inside it doesn't matter at all, thicker is better, on the outside you can fair out the extra thickness over an area unless you want to git rid of the gelcoat and adhere directly to the glass. That bulkhead you are up against under the v berth I think you'll find isn't tabbed to the hull all the way to the centerline, it's definitely open right at the center. You might be able to cut that bulkhead up enough to slide a few layers of cloth under it. If not you could consider running your cloth up like tabbing but I'm not sure I'd want the bulkhead working against my plug/patch.

 

I WOULD taper the edges of the hole itself so that you aren't making a straight sided hockey puck but instead a slice out of a cone. Think of pounding a tapered plug into the hole from the outside and trimming off the excess.

 

Wait, is this already a flush through hull that you're pulling? if it is, that's just about the taper you want the edges of the hole to be. A Dremel will work well for this, a router would be OK if you weren't working right on the V.

 

Forget about the cosmetics, that's going to be so easy you'll wonder why you even considered it. It doesn't have to be pretty, just smooth and that's just a matter of sanding.



#58 hard aground

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 03:38 AM

Is the hull solid, or cored?



#59 BobBill

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 10:26 AM

Ajax is finally getting it and the advice here is good...particularly the question re cored from hard aground. Does make a big difference and adds steps if it is cored...also some minor stuff. I still do not have an idea of the size of the opening that will need to be filled.

 

One can make much thicker glass out of thinner layers...instead of 10-12 oz glass...a square yard of 4 oz s-glass and a bit of carbon goes a very long way...

 

Gloves, whatever source, the blue is safer...big box.

 

Slow or medium epoxy...is often simply a different hardener and mix ratio...they all heat up as the molecules begin racing around looking for a mate. Mix thoroughly, say 50 twerls each way, and not so fast as to create air born bubbles?

 

As implied, patience is an ingredient. Slow epoxy takes longer to kick and cure. You want to work at a pace that allows each batch to be set up on a slightly tacky former batch and create what some call a structural bond, rather than a surface bond...without the bother of removing amine blush etc. Yes, that means getting up at 3 am to work on it...the epoxy dictates the schedule...it is slow but sure, if done right.

 

Your concern for finish is good, but comes after the structural need, and if careful, the finish (exterior) can be finished fair...and it is under water...inside, whatever suits, especially if out of sight.

 

Like we noted, make a friggen list of materials and use and list the work schedule...particularly if this is not something you do every week...you get my drift. You really do not need peel ply, expensive, when kitchen wrap with some wax paper atop will serve for fairer final layer.

 

Last, if cool outside (4 degrees here) a heat lamp before, during and after, not too close to work does wonders.

 

And, almost forgot, if air bubbles appear in cloth layup, a very swift fly over with a torch or heat gun will pop them...you do not want air trapped.

 

Happy New year Ajax...fun and if you can note the hole size (I might have missed) please add.

 

A bevel from the outside, as slight as it might be, is best to offset foreign pressure...

 

If there is a wood core, say balsa, it needs to be dried, removed or solidified and so on. That is a PIA, but important issue.



#60 Dex Sawash

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:50 PM


Impossible to pull nitrile or latex gloves on sweaty hands.
When working with gloves on, your hands will stay damp.
(At least mine do)
Get a bottle of baby powder to put on your hands if you need to change gloves quickly.
You will tear a glove or you will get your gloves too goopey to continue and need to hot-swap. I buy tongue depressor sticks (the ones the dr uses) for mixing epoxy like $8 for 500.
Use a clean tongue depressor to flick off your first glove, otherwise you have to jam a goopey finger inside a glove to get a glove off.

I like an anti-freeze jug or gallon windshield washer fluid jug split open taped to the outside as a backer.

Vinegar will get uncured epoxy off your skin (or tools or whatever).
Get a big bottle of cheap white vinegar and plenty of paper towels.

Cheap nylon paint brushes 1" or 1.5" are great for wetting out cloth or painting epoxy on the old surface. Get the ones that look like you could actually paint with them at HF for 79 cents each. (You can't paint with them, but they look ok) Buy 8 or 10 of them.
Don't buy the beige chip brushes made from a hog's asshole hairs (or Chinese political prisoners) they suck.

I mix in the plastic lowball drinking cups, big bag from warehouse club.
You want to avoid anything with lots of internal ridges that impede mixing.
Solo cups are bad.

I save all my used mixing cups to check after a few hours to be sure the residue went off in the cup. Just so you never wonder if you lost count of the number of pumps of part B in batch #12 when you are pounding upwind for 6 hours in 25 kts.

Fiberglass is the idiot's friend. If you fuck it up you just grind it out and go again. You won't fuck it up though.

#61 memopad

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 01:31 PM

It's a 70's pearson, of course it's solid glass :D

 

It's not his first rodeo with fiberglass or epoxy, he'll be fine. We just needed to kick him in the butt out the door a bit.



#62 Ajax

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 02:24 PM

The hull is solid glass.

The hole is 1.5 - 2".

 

I appreciate all of the advice on materials, equipment and list-making. As Memopad says, this is not my first trip with epoxy. I own several of the fun, little epoxy tools  and materials already, and I've successfully repaired pieces in the past. The fact that I have some experience, but still have concern about making this repair, should clue you in that something is different, or special about this problem.

 

In this West Systems document: http://www.westsyste...-in-fiberglass/

My "problem" is best summed up by the repair procedure at the very bottom. It does NOT take into account that I don't have good access on the inside of the hull, nor does it take into account the "V" shape that I have to recreate. By West's own document, this kind of repair is rated "highest risk" on their little graph.

 

I now have answers to the specific questions that I was asking earlier, as well as answers to questions I didn't think to ask.

I understand the procedure which should be used.

I have one, maybe two people willing to advise me while I do the work.

I understand which materials I need to do the job.

 

Next, I will still be calling two professionals to get quotes for the work.

As spring nears, I will make a decision on how I want to handle it.

 

Absolute worst case, I will simply re-install the dead transducer with the proper materials so that it doesn't leak.

This whole problem is because one of the PO's used JBWeld or Marine-Tex to bed the through-hull, and did a shitty, haphazard job on top of that. At the very least, I could do a better job with epoxy and/or 3M5200.



#63 dreaded

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 02:34 PM



I mix in the plastic lowball drinking cups, big bag from warehouse club.
You want to avoid anything with lots of internal ridges that impede mixing.
Solo cups are bad.

 

 

 

not the short clear plastic solo cups...  you mean the tall colored ones..   I like the idea of holding onto the cups to see the cure

 

I've gone away from the pumps and weigh everything with a digital scale..  the pumps I just use to fill glass jars with resin and hardener (spererately of course) and pour from there instead of the cans.. 



#64 DRIFTW00D

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 04:12 PM

Good stuff here. For cleaning up tapering I have used course to medium files, wood rasps, round, square. Big half round course are the go to at first.

For close work near a bulk head I have used something like a 3M Automotive Roloc Disc Pad Holder, 2 Inch.

http://www.toolsourc...h-p-121559.html


For ideas on finish or anything glass; The board Lady

http://www.boardlady.../repairmenu.htm

#65 Estar

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:32 PM

Yes epoxy is the ticket, but poly does work...I mean, aren't all glass boats poly? But, repairs are best epoxy, no doubt...better slow and safe, then wet and so on.


Mmmm . . . The inside and outside bevel and all is certaintly the "best" fix . . . . But I am just sitting here wondering if it is all way overkill for this job.

What about pulling the transducer, cleaning up the sides of the hole to nice clean/bare glass, taping a piece of waxed aluminum (so the heat does not make it sag) tightly over the bottom of the hole, poring some thickened epoxy in, jamming some pre-wet (epoxy) cloth in and then topping it up with thickened epoxy, and then say two layers of cloth over the top feathered out onto the hull. Really, that is not going to pop out, and it is not going to leak and it is not going to break, and it is going to be way way quicker and easier and not give Ajax any heartburn about the outside cosmetics.

With this thick a hull (so lots of bond surface in the hole) Would that repair really give anyone any "safety" heartburn?

#66 BobBill

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:34 PM

Bucc +1. I appreciate the stick idea to get a purchase to pull off blues...btw, I use them more than once...nitriles were recommended by someone here as it does not let epoxy, acetone etc, penetrate...? Who knows? I switched from the whites and seem the same, save the safer part.

 

Small hole to fill, as I was thinking. Gee, maybe a bit of carbon in a cone, filled with PC11, then a piece or two of 2 oz glass faired, with a small piece of peel ply for slightly rough finish for fairing will do it...scraps might do it...you need some scraps of glass and small peel-ply I and most here likely have, the carbon, might have to be bought... but I just might have a piece of tubular left from last spar job.

 

If all that sounds like I know something about this kinda stuff, good, but, I really don't know squat.

 

Ajax, not problem with reinstall, but if it is out, or will be, why put it back? But, your job...so much fun...make lists... :)

 

And, as I think someone noted also, my best and thanks to all, not a flame here...we are soooo kewl :o)



#67 BobBill

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:40 PM

Yes epoxy is the ticket, but poly does work...I mean, aren't all glass boats poly? But, repairs are best epoxy, no doubt...better slow and safe, then wet and so on.


Mmmm . . . The inside and outside bevel and all is certaintly the "best" fix . . . . But I am just sitting here wondering if it is all way overkill for this job.

What about pulling the transducer, cleaning up the sides of the hole to nice clean/bare glass, taping a piece of waxed aluminum (so the heat does not make it sag) tightly over the bottom of the hole, poring some thickened epoxy in, jamming some pre-wet (epoxy) cloth in and then topping it up with thickened epoxy, and then say two layers of cloth over the top feathered out onto the hull. Really, that is not going to pop out, and it is not going to leak and it is not going to break, and it is going to be way way quicker and easier and not give Ajax any heartburn about the outside cosmetics.

With this thick a hull (so lots of bond surface in the hole) Would that repair really give anyone any "safety" heartburn?

Makes all the sense in the world to me...only thing to worry about might be "sag"  but not so much...Heck carefully sticking a hot nail crosswise in hole might work too...as added help to prevent sag...if needed...I forgot to add, I am anal.



#68 Ajax

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 06:51 PM

I'll try to take a photo of the problem.

I can give you an internal photo, but not external. The boat is in the water.



#69 sherpa

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 12:25 PM

There is a product called InstaMorph that is easily shaped and is an ideal product for use a backing plate for repairs that require one. It is plastic pellets activated by hot water and can be shaped to plug the inside V and also bend around the interior bulkhead. Stuff can be reactivated with hot water, removed and reused. Lots of other uses on a boat or at home. Cures fairly hard but can be shaped with sandpaper.

 

I think beveling and laying up from the outside is the best way to do this repair if this is the route you choose to go. I use a dremel and sanding drums to bevel holes this small.



#70 BobBill

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 02:09 PM

Remember, simple is generally best. I know what I would do, once the boat was dry.

 

I apologize for the faces, the site translates my strokes, which I do detest.



#71 russell_miller

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:18 PM

Dude just get a portbook and call one of the companies that do this all of the time.  There are some great guys in Annapolis and they do not all work out of the back of their truck.



#72 Lex Teredo

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:13 PM

The generosity of people in SA with free and often knowledgeable advice is amazing... but even on my modest budget my time is usually worth more than my money when it comes to major projects.  Faced with a complex fix requiring me to distinguish quick dry epoxy from epoxy that dries quick, tiger hair from horsehair, and horsehair from horseshit... I'd at least get an estimate or two from pros and think hard on it.   

 

As for recommendations,+1 to Osprey in Deale. They do big prestige yachts but manage to price things affordably for those of us with well used older boats.  Quality work in my first hand experience, and the best recommmendation is something one of the owners told me while working on my boat - "About that estimate... we got in there and it's going to be cheaper than we'd thought." 



#73 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 02:30 PM



I mix in the plastic lowball drinking cups, big bag from warehouse club.
You want to avoid anything with lots of internal ridges that impede mixing.
Solo cups are bad.

 

 

 

not the short clear plastic solo cups...  you mean the tall colored ones..   I like the idea of holding onto the cups to see the cure

 

I've gone away from the pumps and weigh everything with a digital scale..  the pumps I just use to fill glass jars with resin and hardener (spererately of course) and pour from there instead of the cans.. 

 

Dreads - mind if I ask why?  I kinda like the pumps - they make it easy for me working by myself to mix up just enough glop for what I'm working on now, w/out having to worry about quickly spreading out a big batch to avoid having it cook off in the cup.  Is there somethin' I should be concerned about that I'm not considering? 



#74 Ajax

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:00 PM

Some folks have reported faulty pumps, causing them to waste expensive product. I can understand their frustration.

So far, I have not had any problems and I will continue to use the pumps.



#75 BobBill

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:08 PM

Fix it yourself, small picky job that just needs some sort of organization and patience-epoxy takes time to cure and kick to point of adding more layers or glop, really. I think getting the boat out and dry is a greater problem, or it would be for me, anyway; and you have to take it out either way, right?



#76 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:25 PM

Some folks have reported faulty pumps, causing them to waste expensive product. I can understand their frustration.

So far, I have not had any problems and I will continue to use the pumps.

 

In my experience you can usually tell if the pumps have an issue while using them.  Slow deliberate full strokes result in the pumps working at their best.  On a practical level if you are paying attention to pumping you can guesstimate a partial pump within the margins of error if the pot has more than a couple of pumps of resin and hardener.  

 

If I was building a carbon fiber mast for a rc model I would be more likely to use weights or more accurate volume measurements than the pumps but for general use I haven't had an issue.  I do sometimes test their accuracy by measuring but have yet to come by one that is far off the mark.  Certainly as accurate as I would be using other means on anything other than the smallest scale.



#77 Ishmael

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:32 PM

Sometimes the pumps give you way more product than you want, so if you want smaller batches the only good way to do it is to weigh the components. For any larger projects I have had no issues with the pumps unless they were really old and starting to plug up, and you can tell when that's happening.



#78 BobBill

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:02 PM

Pumps might do, but...

 

Some years back a gent who worked in a firm that made epoxy or polyurethane told me to always mix larger batches...the reaction, as I learned was a simple one: Every-man-a-molecule, looking to hook up with another molecule (Resin:hardener)

 

And he also told me to use as large a batch as practical but in each case, mix just a wisp more resin than hardener...just a wisp of resin more, when in doubt re 50:50 by volume...and I am not so careful.

 

Sounds crazy, I know, in 50:50 mix, what happens to left out molecules and so on; are they condemned to a single life? There are some jobs where one cannot afford to have a bad cure...

 

But ever since, I have never had a failed batch...and I measure using various cups etc.

 

The guns I figure would not last; cups can be reused and it is easy to pop cured epoxy free from them...just my two cents.

 

It also might help to look up posts by epoxymoron, vegas and Major Tom, all of whom really know the epoxy game far better than me and whose advice I take to heart with notes and saved links as references. Amazing what the material can do and what it has done to revolutionize various constructions from curved walls and boats to aircraft.

 

Whatever, keep it simple, you will figure it out.



#79 JACO

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:21 PM

A simple glove trick... if the job is lengthy enough to require multiple pairs, is to put on two on each hand.  You peel off the outer dirty glove but leave on the inner.  All the sweat stays inside and you can then pull on a new clean glove over the one still on.  If doing big job like lots of tabbing or hull skin it saves a lot of hassle. 



#80 BobBill

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:02 PM

A simple glove trick... if the job is lengthy enough to require multiple pairs, is to put on two on each hand.  You peel off the outer dirty glove but leave on the inner.  All the sweat stays inside and you can then pull on a new clean glove over the one still on.  If doing big job like lots of tabbing or hull skin it saves a lot of hassle. 

 

Good one! +1.



#81 dreaded

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 12:40 AM

 



I mix in the plastic lowball drinking cups, big bag from warehouse club.
You want to avoid anything with lots of internal ridges that impede mixing.
Solo cups are bad.

 

 

 

not the short clear plastic solo cups...  you mean the tall colored ones..   I like the idea of holding onto the cups to see the cure

 

I've gone away from the pumps and weigh everything with a digital scale..  the pumps I just use to fill glass jars with resin and hardener (spererately of course) and pour from there instead of the cans.. 

 

Dreads - mind if I ask why?  I kinda like the pumps - they make it easy for me working by myself to mix up just enough glop for what I'm working on now, w/out having to worry about quickly spreading out a big batch to avoid having it cook off in the cup.  Is there somethin' I should be concerned about that I'm not considering? 

 

the pumps are fine, but not reliable for small batches.. most of the time I'm working with 1-2 oz's of epoxy...



#82 BobBill

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 10:10 AM

One odd thought re measuring with scale...

 

Seems to me if the resin/hardener are sold with directions for volume mix ratios, eg 3:1 etc. weighing might bring problems and vice-versa...

 

I just use the plastic cups sold by suppliers for big stuff and old Kodak film canisters for the very small batches or even the bottom of beer cans...remove the tabs on the tops...imagine the fun.

 

And here the temps are 3 and going lower, so it will be a few weeks before I can get to work with the goop and finishing my project. I envy all who are in the warm and can keep going and not have to freeze off ass shoveling snow....if I did not have so many anchors, I would have moved south long ago.



#83 Ishmael

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:53 PM

One odd thought re measuring with scale...

 

Seems to me if the resin/hardener are sold with directions for volume mix ratios, eg 3:1 etc. weighing might bring problems and vice-versa...

 

I just use the plastic cups sold by suppliers for big stuff and old Kodak film canisters for the very small batches or even the bottom of beer cans...remove the tabs on the tops...imagine the fun.

 

And here the temps are 3 and going lower, so it will be a few weeks before I can get to work with the goop and finishing my project. I envy all who are in the warm and can keep going and not have to freeze off ass shoveling snow....if I did not have so many anchors, I would have moved south long ago.

 

From WEST:

Dispensing without Mini Pumps (Weight/volume measure) - To measure 105 Resin and 205 or 206 Hardener by weight or volume, combine five parts resin with one part hardener.



#84 dreaded

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:42 PM

One odd thought re measuring with scale...

 

Seems to me if the resin/hardener are sold with directions for volume mix ratios, eg 3:1 etc. weighing might bring problems and vice-versa...

 

I just use the plastic cups sold by suppliers for big stuff and old Kodak film canisters for the very small batches or even the bottom of beer cans...remove the tabs on the tops...imagine the fun.

 

And here the temps are 3 and going lower, so it will be a few weeks before I can get to work with the goop and finishing my project. I envy all who are in the warm and can keep going and not have to freeze off ass shoveling snow....if I did not have so many anchors, I would have moved south long ago.

 

From WEST:

>>Dispensing without Mini Pumps (Weight/volume measure) - To measure 105 Resin and 205 or 206 Hardener by weight or volume, combine five parts resin with one part hardener.

 

 

 

exactly,   1oz 105  .2 oz 205        the digital scale i have will go down to  1/100s of an oz.. but i don't rely on that accuracy..

 

i used to make larger batches when using the pumps, but found i was making a lot of coasters...  i was jumping around the boat looking for areas to use the epoxy..



#85 BobBill

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:54 PM

Okay...not disagreeing. Seems I was not clear.

 

My point was/is just that if the product is sold for 50:50 mix-any product-then using weight to attain 50:50 would or could create havoc with mix...unless, of course, the weight ratio matches.

 

I should add that I am a slightly lazy anal person, as counter intuitive as that may seem, and I mix epoxy as I noted earlier, to the line in the cups, which can be off obviously, and with just a tad more resin.

 

When I mix poly, I stay exactly with drips per batch, at least since in 70s I lit a pot afire in garage...which we extinguished... :o/ We learned quick. I still fooled with the stuff...still have some of that stuff from then-disposal seems impossible without a batch of resin, might have to mix and toss.

 

Even when mixing the pasty stuff sold by West...seems to do fine as have had no bad cures...knock on whatever, but I do measure big batches...usually 20-30 percent more than needed always. At least the stuff cures and goes recycle...but I usually find some goofy area of house to use it on...very handy stuff for lots of stuff.






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