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A Cat Worlds 2014 Takapuna

A Class Catamaran Worlds New Zealand

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#1 jeremyh

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 01:46 AM

Seemed to be missing a thread for this topic.  The event starts in 19 days and the pre worlds starts in 15.  Up to date entry list can be found here.  As of now only 76 expected, but very experienced.  Here is report by Arno Terra.  Will anyone be sailing with anything outside of the norm besides the J boards and flexi C boards?



#2 sailingkid

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:46 AM

I'll have straight boards with a kink in the top and L rudders, but they've been around for a few months now.

#3 juniordave nz

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:59 AM

I think you will see a few different things. Drummo will be back with his new black boat with raised platform. There'll be a few J's (not just from DNA), Lots of C's from lots of different manufacturers. Lots of variations of winglets. I'm not sure if we will see anything too much radical.

I'll have photos after the event of just about every set-up there is and load them to the NZADCA website.



#4 Lost in Translation

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:05 AM

Glad to see this thread. What was the rationale on the low freeboard design of the black boat with raised platform?

#5 SimonN

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:08 AM

Arno's report seems to be to be a bit biased. I know he isn't with DNA any more, but you wouldn't know it from the angle he has taken with his review.

 

Starting with the boats, the really interesting one is the Exploder, which has Landy, Brad Collett and a couple of other fast guys sailing them. In many ways I would love to see the boat do well, because it is the best value A out there.

 

Arno also says that in sail development we do not see too many new things. We certainly did at the Australian nationals, with Glenn using a sexy new and very light all black (total blackout) sail which weighed 1 kg less than all the others. Whether he sticks with that for the worlds, develops it further or reverts to an earlier design remains to be seen. I also wouldn't bet against others using something different from what we saw at the Aussie nationals. While foils may make a difference, there are other developments going on and to write them off would be wrong.

 

The biggest hope I have for the worlds is that we get a range of conditions in order to see how well these new boards (J, flexi C) work. I suspect there will be conditions when some foils are superior, but I think the jury is very much out on whether they are really an all round solution.

 

My prediction? If J foils are better, it will be between Glenn and Peter Burling. If they are the same as standard foils, it will be between Glenn, Peter and Stevie. If J's have a weakness, Stevie should be in the driving seat unless it is 17-20 knots when his lighter weight might be a problem. If it gets breezy, Mischa will be in the mix. I had believed that Nathan O was going, but his name isn't on the list, but if he does, he will be up there as well.

 

It will be interesting to see if the "young guns" - the likes of Steve Brayshaw, Adam Beattie and Dave Parker - can find that little bit extra that stopped them really challenging Glenn and Stevie at the Oz nationals. I am also probably being rather disrespectful to all sorts of other people, such as Landy and Brad Collett, who will be challenging for the top 10, but who I am not convinced can actually win the thing.

 

All I do know is I wish I was there and it will be a very interesting and revealing regatta which will probably give us a pretty good idea f the future direction of the class.



#6 Sonofagun

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 03:30 AM

Dougy the Gun will be up there



#7 juniordave nz

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:28 AM

I'm not entirely sure why he went for the raised platform. I think to reduce drag in waves. He was also running J boards at the Nats last year, but they were an older style.

Glad to see this thread. What was the rationale on the low freeboard design of the black boat with raised platform?

 

I agree, Arno was a bit DNA biased in his views. And SimonN is Aus biased.

All I can hope for is a bloody good show to watch from mid pack and to finish all races without DNF's or OCS.

 

With all this new technology, there could well be a bit of attrition in the fleet as bits break or people lose control.

 

Also Auckland could through any conditions at us. This summer has been quite unstable with quite a few systems coming through, although Feb is usually more stable than Dec and Jan.



#8 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:00 AM

We're going to have some exclusive stuff on the front page i believe.



#9 Scarecrow

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:06 AM

Jakub has gotten his boat into some bloody good hands, Landy, Cairns, Anderson, Collet, Demon Parker and Noetzel.  If they all perform to their potential that is a lot of Exploders in or near the top 10.  Could have serious effect on the resale value of the second hand DNAs on the market.



#10 WetnWild

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:25 AM

Certainly agree that from what we have seen from the two Exploders sailing in Aus that they will be right up there particularly with the quality of sailors on board. Don't think there will be much impact on DNA second hand prices as they are proven boats with performance and longevity. In fact Aus second hand prices have been rising recently for DNA's due to the significant change in exchange rate Aus$ vs Euro.

#11 Sonofabitch

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:52 AM

Dougy the Gun will be up there


Define up there

#12 WetnWild

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 10:17 AM

Dougy's a great chance because he hasn't been conned by the bendy board bullshit.

#13 Sonofabitch

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 11:04 AM

Define a great chance

#14 WetnWild

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 12:57 PM

You Sonofa...... people are confusing me. Just trust me, Dougy has come across from the dark side of sailing monoslugs and will not be last. Surely there is a technology crossover from his NS 14 days.

#15 ukjamie

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 01:49 PM

Preview Report by Bob Griffits

 

http://www.a-cat.org/?q=node/345



#16 Sonofabitch

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:10 PM

Nice preview by Bob. Disappointed he didn't mention SimonN or Dougy the Gun, both of whom are legends in their own lunchtime.

#17 Rohanoz

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 07:57 AM

Be surprised if Glenn continues with the Black cloth, it has been discontinued by contender and is pretty much a clearance item.

I made a set out if it last Easter, and was pretty underwhelmed. Looks trick, but horrible to work with, and is pretty stretchy. You also stand out like dogs balls on the course, and the old RC could well just see the boat with 'black sails' over the line in a crowd.

Plenty of other far superior cloths to choose from both Contender and DP in Aust.

#18 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 11:27 PM

You also have a strong US contingent competing at the Worlds.  I am interested to see what Pete Melvin will be sailing since there are rumors of him designing a new A-Cat.  Lars Guck who did well at the last Worlds held at Islamorada and was second to Glenn in 07 might give a good showing here as well.  He was the surprise performer at the C-Class Worlds on a heavier and somewhat dated Cogito.



#19 juniordave nz

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 06:19 AM

I don't think Pete got round to designing the new boat, could be wrong though. Some guys at Dynamic Composites were going to build it, but never happened.



#20 Kiwi A Class

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 09:06 AM

Pete is sailing his A3 platform with a new mast and Glaser sail.

#21 samc99us

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 05:46 PM

I'm not entirely sure why he went for the raised platform. I think to reduce drag in waves. He was also running J boards at the Nats last year, but they were an older style.

Glad to see this thread. What was the rationale on the low freeboard design of the black boat with raised platform?

 

I agree, Arno was a bit DNA biased in his views. And SimonN is Aus biased.

All I can hope for is a bloody good show to watch from mid pack and to finish all races without DNF's or OCS.

 

With all this new technology, there could well be a bit of attrition in the fleet as bits break or people lose control.

 

Also Auckland could through any conditions at us. This summer has been quite unstable with quite a few systems coming through, although Feb is usually more stable than Dec and Jan.

 

Photo: https://picasaweb.go...934598448951314



#22 Dougy the gun

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 12:05 AM

There are many aspects of ns14 sailing that translate to a class. Its probaly to complicated for most of you guys especially wet n wild.. See you in takapuna

#23 Sonofabitch

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:18 AM

There are many aspects of ns14 sailing that translate to a class. Its probaly to complicated for most of you guys especially wet n wild.. See you in takapuna


Wing mast?

Fully battened sails?

Can't think of many more....

#24 juniordave nz

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 09:57 AM

Long range forecast for day before Pre worlds (NZ Nats)

 

rain-nzni-2014012800-180.gif

 

That looks nice and ugly. Still a long way out though, so lots could change.



#25 SimonN

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 12:55 PM

Dougy

 

They just don't get it. With a cat, you sail with only one hull in the water at a time, exactly the same as with an NS14. It's easier to do well in an A because you don't have a stupid crew to screw everything up for you and your view forward is better on the A because the crew isn't in the way. So, in so many ways, the A is far easier to sail well than an NS14 and we all know what championships you won in them. Victorian State Champion, wasn't it..........



#26 Dougy the gun

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:05 PM

Several

#27 Kiwi A Class

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:43 PM

Yesterday Glenn tried out an Exploder with c foils. He sailed against the j dnas and found the dna is a little bit quicker. Today Exploder are fitting j boards onto Glenns boat. So far I haven't seen anything interesting or different on any of the a cats. Landy Exploder c foils, Mischa Dna j foils. Is going to be an interesting regatta.

#28 Scarecrow

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:54 PM

Stop - wait - hold on....

 

Is there a chance Glenn is going Exploder for the worlds?



#29 SimonN

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 08:57 PM

I was told that Glenn has both an Exploder and a DNA available to him and whichever he isn't using will ne sailed by Nathan Outteridge.



#30 WetnWild

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 10:30 PM

I was told that Glenn has both an Exploder and a DNA available to him and whichever he isn't using will ne sailed by Nathan Outteridge.

Good to see you finally catching up on the plan that has been in place for a long time.
And don't you be sledging Dougy. I'm sure he will be the first to buy the Coronas at the Belgian Beer Cafe Takapuna while explaining his revolutionary lifting foils for the NS14. Not C not T not J not L. An expert I met down at the beach told me they could be M or Z. He's aiming for big things this year. I heard a whisper he'll have a crack at the ACT championships.

#31 juniordave nz

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:37 AM

Looks like the first day of the Nats (the 6th) could be a bit rough with this going down the coast the night before.

 

rain-nzni-2014012818-180.gif



#32 Kiwi A Class

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 02:48 AM

Cripes juniordave I just viewed the latest weather forecast - it doesn't look good! Second tropical cyclone of the season......

#33 Sonofagun

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 05:53 AM

I was told that Glenn has both an Exploder and a DNA available to him and whichever he isn't using will ne sailed by Nathan Outteridge.

Good to see you finally catching up on the plan that has been in place for a long time.
And don't you be sledging Dougy. I'm sure he will be the first to buy the Coronas at the Belgian Beer Cafe Takapuna while explaining his revolutionary lifting foils for the NS14. Not C not T not J not L. An expert I met down at the beach told me they could be M or Z. He's aiming for big things this year. I heard a whisper he'll have a crack at the ACT championships.

expert? in the company of Dougy the Gun??



#34 Sonofabitch

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:44 AM


"And don't you be sledging Dougy. I'm sure he will be the first to buy the Coronas at the Belgian Beer Cafe Takapuna"

He may be the first to buy Coronas but Dougy never buys Coronas for other people...

#35 Dougy the gun

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:47 AM

I do for people i like

#36 Sonofabitch

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:42 AM

78 entries, cheap shout for Dougy

#37 flojo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 02:04 PM

Long range forecast for day before Pre worlds (NZ Nats)

 

rain-nzni-2014012800-180.gif

 

That looks nice and ugly. Still a long way out though, so lots could change.

Ideal weather for Brad.



#38 Lost in Translation

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:17 PM

Good posts on the event at http://dnacat.blogspot.com including video.  I hope other manufacturers and sailors will start putting up pre-event notes and pics as well.  I'm hearing the area is pretty breezy right now and seems to be continuing to be so.



#39 ozchrisb

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:57 PM



#40 Kiwi A Class

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:18 PM

I just want to make things clear regarding Landys Exploder boat. I caught up with Landy and Jakub a couple of days ago. Jakub has bought over 8 Exploders for the world's. The one that DNA has taken photos of is a test boat for c, j and L foils. My thinking is with the 8.1 & 8.2 rule being voted at this worlds Exploder want to show whether it's a good direction to go or not. Landy is sailing with c foils and is sailing fast! The Etnz have developed a new foil for their dnas. They are doing a lot of in house training at the moment. It has been very windy constantly over 20 knots dat after day. Two broken boards so far.

#41 Bing Bimbo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:56 PM

"And don't you be sledging Dougy. I'm sure he will be the first to buy the Coronas at the Belgian Beer Cafe Takapuna"

He may be the first to buy Coronas but Dougy never buys Coronas for other people...



#42 Bing Bimbo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 08:57 PM

Going to the Belgian Beer Cafe and ordering Coronas would be like going to a fine Restaurant In Paris and ordering a Taco

#43 WetnWild

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:05 AM

Going to the Belgian Beer Cafe and ordering Coronas would be like going to a fine Restaurant In Paris and ordering a Taco

Well looks like Dougy and the rest of the AUS team will be heading to the Taco shop.
Oh, and official SA welcome - fuck off and show us ya tits.

#44 Quetzalcoatl

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 08:02 PM

Hi all,

 

Just a quick question regarding the vote happening at the worlds for keeping or not the rule 8.2. Let say the rule is banned from the box-rule, when will this come into force, right after the worlds, or beginning of 2015?



#45 fireball

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 09:01 PM

Hi all,
 
Just a quick question regarding the vote happening at the worlds for keeping or not the rule 8.2. Let say the rule is banned from the box-rule, when will this come into force, right after the worlds, or beginning of 2015?


The vote happening at the worlds isn't the final step. If the proposals get a 2/3 majority from the delegates at the worlds then there will be a vote of all the class membership. This would take awhile, so the decision won't be known until mid 2014 or so.

#46 Kiwi A Class

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 09:46 PM

I have been talking to some of the boat designers at Takapuna regarding the proposed changes for the foils. One interesting reply was the current boat/s will be obsolete if the new rules come into play. Why I asked? The whole structure and dynamics of the platform will change (front beam and cases further fwd) and it will be expensive. As seen on the dna website the j foils and rudder wings are working really well. Boat is foiling in 12 knots of breeze fast and stable! A lot of us are thinking why re invent the wheel if it's working fine!

#47 Phil S

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 10:05 PM

I do not understand why they would take the most exquisite catamaran class and turn it into an inferior foiling class. It will be slower than a moth and twice as complex and twice as expensive. A's were more attractive before they started trying to fly.

#48 SimonN

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 11:19 PM

If you go back and check you will  find that I have been saying for 2 years that foiling will obsolete the whole fleet very quickly. The idea that you can simply fit these foils to existing platforms and be competitive against a boat specifically designed to foil is naïve at the every least. By way of example, even with where we are now with C foils and winglets on the rudders, I believe that we need to make changes to the current layouts to our boats. Some years ago, the position of the front beams were moved back to reduce nose diving tendencies. Some deigns moved the centreboards back as well. So much so, I bought a new front beam for my boat. However, winglets now make the need to move the beam back an obsolete idea and having done a fair amount of 2 boat testing, I am now convinced that having the beam and centreboard in the forward position is faster. If I could order a new Nikita today 9if I win the Lotto this week!!), I would ask for it to be built with the beam and centreboard case 150mm further forward than they are built now. I might be shit at sailing around a race course at the moment, but I can still learn a lot sailing in a straight line against Steve Brewin. So if I am pacing him (or faster) downhill on a 11 year old modified Flyer 1 that is a floppy as hell, with a 3 year old rig and a hull with more craters than the moon, you got to start to consider what is allowing that to happen. As the hull shapes are very similar, the foils are the same and the rig is definitely not better, it has to be because of configuration (irrespective of how much I would like to claim it is my better skill :D)

 

If we get advantageously foiling around the race course, even if it is only downwind that the boats are properly out of the water, the next stage will be to reconfigure the boats and as said by Kiwi A Class, that means moving rigs and centreboards forward. I also believe you need to reconsider how the boats are built as there will be increased forces around the centreboard case area which I am not convinced the current boats are designed for. It might take a while, but I would expect to see problems such as cases cracking and hull delam developing in existing boats.

 

Of course, there is an argument that says "so what"! We are a development class and it is nothing new to have a design make the whole fleet obsolete. We saw that at the start of the century with the Flyer style boats and we saw it again with curved boards and the DNA's. My concerns aren't about whether a new design makes the fleet obsolete, but about costs. If you don't want to run the risk of your boat becoming obsolete overnight, don't sail a development class.

 

Interesting times, and I think we will learn a lot about the future direction of the class over the next few weeks.



#49 Sonofagun

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:30 AM

Aghhh, I almost agree with SimonN and fully agree with Phil S. if sailing by yourself and if you want go fast on foils, buy a moth. If you want race a tactical single handed high performance catamaran, with plenty of opportunity for innovation, sail A Class with the current rules.

I wonder if A Class didn't have a minimum weight, a multihull rule and in-from-the-top rule , if they would have evolved into a moth....

#50 Sonofabitch

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:40 AM

Aghhh, I almost agree with SimonN and fully agree with Phil S. if sailing by yourself and if you want go fast on foils, buy a moth. If you want race a tactical single handed high performance catamaran, with plenty of opportunity for innovation, sail A Class with the current rules.
I wonder if A Class didn't have a minimum weight, a multihull rule and in-from-the-top rule , if they would have evolved into a moth....


Crap. Look at the work around the rule stuff going on Landy with L foil cassettes to beat in the top rule and flexy foils to beat the 1.5m rule.

#51 erikM

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 07:57 AM

I suspect that these new boats that would be specially designed for flying wouldn’t perform as well as the present boats in non-flying conditions (light winds). So actually the present boats wouldn’t be obsolete, we would just need to come to races with 2 boats and select the right one (with of course the right rig) for the forecasted conditions… Easy!



#52 Rohanoz

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 08:23 AM

Bit like cut down foils at the Moth Worlds this year. Dev work to make them smaller and smaller, wind doesn't blow, everyone puts big foils back on.
Who will have a quiver to cater for the 5kt days where you still have to race?

#53 SimonN

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 08:11 PM

Landy's solution would make almost every boat in the fleet obsolete. The problem is that it doesn't matter how you make it, Landy's solution with its cassette and holes in the boat will add weight to the boats because not only does the cassette weigh more than the materials you cut out, but you also need to strengthen the boat significantly around the holes in the hulls. This solution has been talked about for some time (and good on Landy for doing it) but the reason why I haven't done it is that those who I have spoken to about it (boat builders) agree that it will add at least 2-3 kgs (1-1.5kgs per side). Now, consider that at the Aussie A Class nationals the average weight of the boats when measured was something in the order of 77kgs (min weight is 75kgs). That means that the average fleet weight with this conversion would be 80kgs and when you add in the boards weighing more (they have to because they are bigger and need to take more loads) and you begin to see boats maybe 7kgs or more heavier than class minimum. I don't see a lot of people being happy with that.

 

And all of the above is without considering the costs of modifying boats........

 

I believe that it is a myth that the class can progress down the foiling route without making the whole fleet totally obsolete.



#54 Phil S

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 08:35 PM

The moth class went through a tough decision making process over ten yeras ago, to foil or not to foil, and also what sort of foiling was still a mono hull, The arguments were very similar in many respects to what the A people are doing now.

The Moth class was stagnant, with maybe 100 boats sailing world wide, 30 at a worlds, and 5 built each year. Basically the class needed a change. Now we have thousands of boat, over 100 new each year, and our next worlds looks like having a record fleet of over 120. We obviously made the right decision.

But I do not see the AClass in such dire straights, fleets sizes look good, you have multiple builders producing quality boats and fleets in may countries, are you sure anything really needs fixing. The rule you created to limit foiling has failed, and some want it gone, maybe you just need to strengthen that rule and go back to cat sailing.

#55 Wandering Geo

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 08:56 PM

Posted in the "new stuff" thread.

http://www.catsailingnews.com/

 

Looks like Mischa has been inspired by his time on the C.

Deck sweeper, end plated main, Canting mast?



#56 AUS

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 05:45 PM

+ 1 Phil S..  I have just got done with an awesome weekend of Moths sailing in the Florida Keys. Fortunately there is room for two and I also still love my A cat, it is fast and complex in a total different way than the Moth and far more appropriate for the standard sailor. Hence the current strength of the class. No matter what we do the A cat will never be like a Moth or nearly as fast. If the class does not make the smart decision and ends up continuing down the foiling path my Nikita would be on the market ASAP. I would be better off to put my energy into my Moth sailing. And I know of a bunch of others that would end up jumping across to the moth as well.  While we are seeing a lot of testing going on in the A fortunately the main decision makers and class voices are a good bunch of people (Most involved heavily in the testing) and will encourage the rule direction that is in the best interest of the class members as a whole. Interesting times.

 

My 2c Ben Moon

Mach 2 and Nikita



#57 Börni

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 07:00 PM

Can someone please explain why a foiling a-cat will never ever be as fast as the moth? What are the technical reasons for that? What foil/rig/hull configurations do you consider? I can remember the first public discussions about the very first foiling moths. A lot of people were saying that the foiling boats will never be competitive around the race course, and now see what they have achieved! I really don`t get the arguments why a boat with a very efficient 13,94 sqm rig  (vs 8 sqm), an all-up weight with 80 kgs sailor of 155 kgs (vs 110 kgs)   and width of 2,35 m (vs 2,25 m or better half of this not including the windward heal) will never ever be as fast??? 



#58 david r

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 08:18 PM

Can someone please explain why a foiling a-cat will never ever be as fast as the moth? What are the technical reasons for that? What foil/rig/hull configurations do you consider? I can remember the first public discussions about the very first foiling moths. A lot of people were saying that the foiling boats will never be competitive around the race course, and now see what they have achieved! I really don`t get the arguments why a boat with a very efficient 13,94 sqm rig  (vs 8 sqm), an all-up weight with 80 kgs sailor of 155 kgs (vs 110 kgs)   and width of 2,35 m (vs 2,25 m or better half of this not including the windward heal) will never ever be as fast??? 

Let's just imagine that someone made a fully fly A class like boat,  that even flew to windward, but on 4 foils.  Imagine further that some how, riding on 4 foils gave you no increase in drag compared to the 2 foils of a moth, and that the weight of a moth being half of an A or whatever, gave no benefit to the moth.  or at least there was extra power in the A rig to compensate for these differences.

Now the A has to do foiling tacks and jibes in order to keep up with the moth.  That nut may take a while to crack.

 

Not that it's any of my biz, but i don't know if it's such a good idea to full foil an A.

Anyway, it sure will be interesting to see what the Arabian/New Zealand team come up with for the worlds though.



#59 Sonofabitch

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 08:26 PM

Our man Dougy the Gun is on the water at Takapuna sailing a bog standard foiling DNA. What's the weather like Dougy?

#60 WetnWild

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 09:02 PM


Our man Dougy the Gun is on the water at Takapuna sailing a bog standard foiling DNA. What's the weather like Dougy?


Not sure you are on the money here Sonofa. I was chatting to a few experts pn the beach the other day who reckon the only foiling Dougy does is when he goes to the hairdresser to get his tips done.

#61 WickedF18

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 09:23 PM

I think you will find Dougy is not on a DNA



#62 Phil S

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 09:29 PM

Why does a moth foil well and cats do not. Not completely sure but here are some ideas.
1. The moth just happened to have the centreboard about half way back, near the CoG and hence a very good place to start with reasonable balance. It's move forward a lot in 10 years but being stable in the early days helped a lot. All the cats are starting with the rig and boards well aft of the CoG, starting out unstable.
2. The active control of the wand provides the other big contributor to longitudinal stability. The AC banned it so all the cat development since Rocker has ignored active control. I suspect the C Rocker was too big for the power of the wand, an A may not be but some people think it banned, so no one had yet tried one. I do not understand why the OD cat developers have ignored the wand.
3. A huge moth gain happens with windward heal, and its nothing to do with CoG shift to windward. It's all to do with unloading the verticals from their lateral resistance duty. At zero AoA the drag almost vanishes. Once up to speed the main lifting foils are much bigger than they need to be and so a lot of they available lift is redirected to windward lift by windward heal. 15 to 20 deg. You will need very long leeward verticals to get any cat to that angle of heal.
4. The obvious one is that you have twice the drag just in foil area and in Joints, curves or whatever alphabet shape you are playing with.
5. To date the only cats which has foiled upwind to advantage have been Oracle and Groupama C. Of the 6 $100M AC boats and 10? $1M CCats, that's a pretty poor success rate.

All the cat foiling development (except the 14ft Italian one) have worked on the AC concept developed to bypass the AC no foiling rule. Hopefully that rule will go for next time and some sensible development will happen, but if they still need 6 gorillas continuously pumping oil it hardly seems relevant to small boats, especially one man boats.

#63 Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:46 AM

Go the arrow :-)

87971d1390085659-arrow-cat-foiler-single

#64 Phil S

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:26 AM

One photo is no evidence of success. Without rudder foils I bet this flight lasted less than 5 seconds.

#65 Sonofabitch

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 09:57 AM

Picture on the SA home page shows Dougy's rudder set up heavily influenced by ns14 technology. He may run foul of Bags for the T foil being over width. Ironic cause it was Dougy himself who warned some T foils didn't measure....playing mind games Dougy?

#66 SimonN

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 10:05 AM

That's not Dougy's rudder..........



#67 Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:04 AM

One photo is no evidence of success. Without rudder foils I bet this flight lasted less than 5 seconds.


Lol.... Likely, but I am sure he is having fun. Not saying it is fast either. It was this guys first attempt, done with next to no $$$ and not stable. It does not have rudder foils.

#68 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:28 PM

Why does a moth foil well and cats do not. Not completely sure but here are some ideas.
1. The moth just happened to have the centreboard about half way back, near the CoG and hence a very good place to start with reasonable balance. It's move forward a lot in 10 years but being stable in the early days helped a lot. All the cats are starting with the rig and boards well aft of the CoG, starting out unstable.
2. The active control of the wand provides the other big contributor to longitudinal stability. The AC banned it so all the cat development since Rocker has ignored active control. I suspect the C Rocker was too big for the power of the wand, an A may not be but some people think it banned, so no one had yet tried one. I do not understand why the OD cat developers have ignored the wand.
3. A huge moth gain happens with windward heal, and its nothing to do with CoG shift to windward. It's all to do with unloading the verticals from their lateral resistance duty. At zero AoA the drag almost vanishes. Once up to speed the main lifting foils are much bigger than they need to be and so a lot of they available lift is redirected to windward lift by windward heal. 15 to 20 deg. You will need very long leeward verticals to get any cat to that angle of heal.
4. The obvious one is that you have twice the drag just in foil area and in Joints, curves or whatever alphabet shape you are playing with.
5. To date the only cats which has foiled upwind to advantage have been Oracle and Groupama C. Of the 6 $100M AC boats and 10? $1M CCats, that's a pretty poor success rate.
 

 

Give it time and remember that the Hydros boats topped out with a higher speed than any Moth has ever done and that was with almost no dev time.  Even Cammas was still slower around a track than one of today's mothies, but the potential is definitely there.  The Cup boats were a shit show as you know and are a completely apples-to-oranges comparison.  The C-boats were all under the gun and over the shop, and never allowed to compete against one another until one event in shit-all wind.  Again, a bad comparison. 

 

Question:  If the class opens up to unrestricted foiling, are there enough A-Class boats around and enough will around to create a box-rule pre-foiling Class for everyone not interested (or too fat) to foil?  You really could have something as successful as the Finn Masters are in Europe, with 2-300 boats at all major events.



#69 jeremyh

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:11 PM

The problem isn't getting the boats to foil.  Boats can be built to foil and make weight. It is just a complexity issue. The idea of the A class is that it is a simple, single-handed catamaran that can be rigged, launched and sailed by one person.  If the class does go down the foiling route, everything will become more expensive, the racing won't be as close, and the fleet will lose sailors. The moth class had to make this decision, but the difference between that decision and this one is that the A class has a very healthy fleet. Why would a sailor want to deal with rigging a foiling catamaran by themselves when they could pick up a moth and carry it into the water for a cheaper price. 



#70 Börni

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:24 PM

Maybe there is room for more than one foiling sailing boat...

If foiling proved to be faster around the corse than non-foiling in most condition, than I think there is no way back. That is the thing about development classes, right??? And that is one of the reasons I choose the A. Pushing the technology (like it was done in the past with hulls, sails and masts).



#71 david r

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:00 PM

From looking at the internets, it seems there are many foiling cat projects around Europe.
http://www.foilingweek.com/

Time will tell if a foiling A, a flying fantom, a C class, or any cat can beat a Moth around a course.



#72 Sonofagun

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:08 PM

2. The active control of the wand provides the other big contributor to longitudinal stability. The AC banned it so all the cat development since Rocker has ignored active control. I suspect the C Rocker was too big for the power of the wand, an A may not be but some people think it banned, so no one had yet tried one. I do not understand why the OD cat developers have ignored the wand.


Rule 52. The moths got dispensation.

#73 samc99us

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:11 PM

Update on flying A's: http://www.catsailin...eport.html#more

 

Maybe your boat isn't obsolete...



#74 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:23 PM

2. The active control of the wand provides the other big contributor to longitudinal stability. The AC banned it so all the cat development since Rocker has ignored active control. I suspect the C Rocker was too big for the power of the wand, an A may not be but some people think it banned, so no one had yet tried one. I do not understand why the OD cat developers have ignored the wand.


Rule 52. The moths got dispensation.

 

??



#75 AUS

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:26 PM

Borni, how many international 100 boat A cat events have you attended or any 30 + A cat fleet events for that matter? Great racing isn't it? There isn't many other classes that can compare! The main issue is the potential risk of losing all of that. Yes there is people that want to foil (Like myself) so go get a moth! I am sure we can potentially get an A cat to a faster top speed than a moth but I can guarantee it will not be quicker around a course. And if a foiling A is quicker around a course than a current A cat it will not be by much at all so the question is why?? More complexity and more expense for very little if any gain but big potential loss. I am all for experimentation and that is really all that is going on at this point. The correct decisions will be made in due course. Unfortunately in the mean time It is the social media posts like foil or die that hurt a class like the A. I feel this thread has got quite a way of topic. 



#76 fireball

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:37 PM


2. The active control of the wand provides the other big contributor to longitudinal stability. The AC banned it so all the cat development since Rocker has ignored active control. I suspect the C Rocker was too big for the power of the wand, an A may not be but some people think it banned, so no one had yet tried one. I do not understand why the OD cat developers have ignored the wand.

Rule 52. The moths got dispensation.

Yes - RRS 52 is

"52 Manual power

A boat's standing rigging, running rigging, spars and moveable hull appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew."

The moths have an alteration to RRS 52 in their class rules. The A and the C classes don't mention RRS 52 in their class rules.

It's interesting that none of the C classes at their 2013 championships and none of the foiling A classes for the upcoming 2014 worlds use wands. The likely conclusion is that they would risk getting protested under RRS 52 and they're not confident they would measure.

#77 cabsav

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 09:01 PM

Go the arrow :-)

 

Go the arrow :ph34r: !  The haters hate already.  It looks like Will in that photo... a few years ago that guy didn't even use the internet... he said "I don't have an internet I've got a belly and it's solar powered"... who says sailing and recreational drugs don't mix?

 

Maybe the A's can have their awesome racing as they currently do and the Arrows can be the foiling cat  :P



#78 Tcatman

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 09:10 PM

Question:  If the class opens up to unrestricted foiling, are there enough A-Class boats around and enough will around to create a box-rule pre-foiling Class for everyone not interested (or too fat) to foil?  You really could have something as successful as the Finn Masters are in Europe, with 2-300 boats at all major events.

Look at how the class markets itself..    It is all about the Worlds, and Continentals and some high profile events... They market the names of the rock stars from all walks of the sailing world that create an incredibly competitive prestigious field.... coupled with  the new cool stuff.  This is a top down class..with stuff filtering down to the club sailor.   Take away the development aspect.... and you probably take away the sailing rock stars and the core of the class at worlds and continentals.  Could a non flying class exist... perhaps... but I would look at the turnover when the class went from woodies to  glass and then the flyer revolution for some hints.   before my time...    One piece of data might be did the Takupano worlds meet their attendance forecast. . IMO, the class made the call when they allowed curved boards in the rule....my only question...has always been.... how skinny do you have to be to fly a boat with the A class amount of power.  

 

So, if you look at the USA Moth Class for a model.... you see that they have 5 or so events published in four Locations... Florida Keys, Charleston and Newport and Muskeg on. .   Is that enough of a racing class to get you into a moth....  Could you have a viable Flying A class circuit like this...    Is there enough oxygen for a non flying class that people trust to be sustainable year after year.. 

 

So, what happens when the very nice sailing boat that you currently own... is obsolete in the racing class.... So, What do you do?    Upgrade, play at the back of the fleet,  show up at surviving  local events only,  or go back to day sailing the thing...  indeed interesting times.



#79 Phil S

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 09:59 PM

The moth people considered that water moving the wand was little different from water acting against the hull, centreboard or foil, the water exerts a force and can cause movement in all cases. To prevent any argument we clarified with a class rule declaring that the wand does not break rule 52.

Not all dev classes are completely open. The I14s decided at about the same time as the moths to not become a foiling class.

#80 Phat Buoy

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:10 PM

Question:  If the class opens up to unrestricted foiling, are there enough A-Class boats around and enough will around to create a box-rule pre-foiling Class for everyone not interested (or too fat) to foil?  You really could have something as successful as the Finn Masters are in Europe, with 2-300 boats at all major events.

 

Don't get me started!

 

Apologies for taking this thread further off topic, but I have been banging on about this for some time.

 

I have had 3 A-cats (Boyers Mk III, IV and V) and would re-join the class in a heartbeat if finances allowed (and I wasn't so phat).  A 75kg A-cat with a flat bottom, carbon mast and straight boards is a wonderful boat in its own right and only 'slow' against newer boats.  Is there a place for a one-design single handed 18 footer?  I'm thinking something along the lines of:

  • Hulls similar to the Boyer Mark V or Flyer (Flat bottom.  Fatter stern.  Main beam moved back.  Capable of home build in composite, or production hulls).
  • Carbon beams (platform to be bolted together).
  • Straight centreboards.
  • Winglets on the rudders (for pitch stability).
  • Carbon mast.
  • Max. trailerable width.
  • A bit more horsepower than an A-Class.
  • Less than 100kg (to allow for a ding-resistant hulls and possibly a stronger mast).

Don't get me wrong - I love the A-cat and I love watching the development.  It just seems to be getting harder and harder to keep playing...

 

New thread?



#81 juniordave nz

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:37 PM

Where do all you people sail that you think the A needs more horse power? I almost always have to de-power somewhat. Fully powered at 8 knots seems fine to me.

Back to the worlds. Fly to Takapuna tomorrow, my boat arrived there last night.

If I can find internet, I will post some picks. People up there seem to be a bit slack in getting some photos out. Although I guess there is all the sailing to focus on.



#82 fireball

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 12:15 AM

The moth people considered that water moving the wand was little different from water acting against the hull, centreboard or foil, the water exerts a force and can cause movement in all cases. To prevent any argument we clarified with a class rule declaring that the wand does not break rule 52.

Not all dev classes are completely open. The I14s decided at about the same time as the moths to not become a foiling class.

 

 

Your moth class rule is:

 

"12.2 In alteration to RRS 52, only remote controls using stored power are prohibited.",

 

so it alters RRS 52, rather than saying that a wand complies with RRS 52.

 

IMHO a wand doesn't comply with RRS 52. A wand operates independently of the crew, so there is a moveable hull appendage that isn't  "adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew". The flap on the centreboard T-foil is adjusted by the wand and some linkages, neither of which is powered by the crew.

 

Note that RRS 52 was rewritten in the 2013-2017 rules, so any interpretations for the previous rules would have to be updated.



#83 SC65

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:10 AM

If I can find internet, I will post some picks. People up there seem to be a bit slack in getting some photos out. Although I guess there is all the sailing to focus on.

Any photos posted, links to event websites with photos or other event related photo blogs are highly appreciated by the remote followers!



#84 SimonN

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:41 AM


Where do all you people sail that you think the A needs more horse power? I almost always have to de-power somewhat. Fully powered at 8 knots seems fine to me.


The issue isn't heeling moment. Horsepower that is being talked about is heeling moment and righting moment. Many believe, including me, believe that there isn't enough righting moment to get an A to foil upwind. Downhill, you reach foiling speed before you need to depower. It should be noted that they increased the beam on the Flying Phantom, presumably for this reason.

#85 Foghorn77

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:08 AM

How 'bout we keep all the discussion about development hypotheticals and opinions in the thread that already has all the posts about  development> "New stuff in the A class"  and use this thread for following the worlds and whats on the boats there.



If I can find internet, I will post some picks. People up there seem to be a bit slack in getting some photos out. Although I guess there is all the sailing to focus on.

Any photos posted, links to event websites with photos or other event related photo blogs are highly appreciated by the remote followers!

+1



#86 kiwi_jon

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:31 AM



#87 juniordave nz

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 03:47 AM

Bloody hell. It would be great to be part of that team

Thanks Kiwi_jon.

A bit nicer than my garage.



#88 Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:23 AM

Clearly, the Laser class needs to change there rules as well to allow foiling. There will be no turning back. Who cares if they have a very successful class.

laser.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/PSfoiling.jpg

#89 Phil S

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:13 AM

The moth people considered that water moving the wand was little different from water acting against the hull, centreboard or foil, the water exerts a force and can cause movement in all cases. To prevent any argument we clarified with a class rule declaring that the wand does not break rule 52.
Not all dev classes are completely open. The I14s decided at about the same time as the moths to not become a foiling class.

 
 
Your moth class rule is:
 
"12.2 In alteration to RRS 52, only remote controls using stored power are prohibited.",
 
so it alters RRS 52, rather than saying that a wand complies with RRS 52.
 
IMHO a wand doesn't comply with RRS 52. A wand operates independently of the crew, so there is a moveable hull appendage that isn't  "adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew". The flap on the centreboard T-foil is adjusted by the wand and some linkages, neither of which is powered by the crew.
 
Note that RRS 52 was rewritten in the 2013-2017 rules, so any interpretations for the previous rules would have to be updated.


Your opinion would not get a hearing in the moth class. The horse has well and truly bolted. Sort of like when film sails appeared and the woven material rule had to go. Sort of like when the 100ft maxi boat zillionaires decided they could have power winches and tilting keels, and now they are doing it down to 40 footers. Like language, rules change to move with the times and modern realities. Not that you need to change, there are some classic OD classes about with very old rules doing very nicely.

#90 fireball

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:49 AM

 

The moth people considered that water moving the wand was little different from water acting against the hull, centreboard or foil, the water exerts a force and can cause movement in all cases. To prevent any argument we clarified with a class rule declaring that the wand does not break rule 52.
Not all dev classes are completely open. The I14s decided at about the same time as the moths to not become a foiling class.

 
 
Your moth class rule is:
 
"12.2 In alteration to RRS 52, only remote controls using stored power are prohibited.",
 
so it alters RRS 52, rather than saying that a wand complies with RRS 52.
 
IMHO a wand doesn't comply with RRS 52. A wand operates independently of the crew, so there is a moveable hull appendage that isn't  "adjusted and operated only by the power provided by the crew". The flap on the centreboard T-foil is adjusted by the wand and some linkages, neither of which is powered by the crew.
 
Note that RRS 52 was rewritten in the 2013-2017 rules, so any interpretations for the previous rules would have to be updated.


Your opinion would not get a hearing in the moth class. The horse has well and truly bolted. Sort of like when film sails appeared and the woven material rule had to go. Sort of like when the 100ft maxi boat zillionaires decided they could have power winches and tilting keels, and now they are doing it down to 40 footers. Like language, rules change to move with the times and modern realities. Not that you need to change, there are some classic OD classes about with very old rules doing very nicely.

 

Reply in

 

http://forums.sailin...=7#entry4470773

 

as requested.



#91 juniordave nz

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 08:50 AM

Weather for tomorrow is building to 30knots from the east. First day of nats/pre worlds could well be blown out. Friday is looking much better with it easing to about 10-15knots.

 

Practice race for the worlds:

rain-nzni-2014020500-120.gif

Light winds from the south

 

First day of the regatta:

rain-nzni-2014020500-144.gif

Pretty much the same.

 

Second day:

rain-nzni-2014020500-168.gif

Even lighter than before

 

And thats as far as the maps go. But it is looking like the 3rd day could be light as well. the 4th day is a rest day, then who knows what the wind will do.

 

Weather today in Auckland was 12-15knots, short chop



#92 Sonofagun

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 10:31 AM

Thanks Juniordave for the forecast. When you get here tomorrow Dougy the Gun will be the one out foiling in 30 knots. WetnWild will drinking Coronas in the Taco bar. See you then.

#93 SC65

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 02:43 PM

Awesome! Thx!



#94 krash

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 02:45 PM

I'm seriously looking forward to this event.  Flight out of Atlanta this pm, arriving in Auckland on Fri am, and should be on the water that afternoon...



#95 Steve Clark

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:19 PM

By my lights the Rule 52 is a complete cock up and if applied aggressively, bans things like gybing centerboards, over-rotating masts and full battens and anything else that  "adjusts" from one setting to the next without manual power.  I think it was created so that here could be a single exemption in the sailing instructions for Volvo 70s, Wallys, and the like. 

The C Class has followed the Moth Class' shining example by making sure that rule 52 does not apply to devices that more or less instantaneously react to the motion of wind and wave to adjust one or more parts of the vessel.

 

As to whether anything will ever come close to the performance of the Moth, it's just a matter of power and drag.  The A class has more righting moment and a higher aspect sail plan.  It has more parasitic drag.  You can run all the numbers and try to predict it, or you can conduct the lively experiment and determine the result in competition.  Which is kind of fun if you like that sort of thing, or hell on earth if you don't.

 

The only thing that needs to be done is to assure that the A Class does not suddenly require completely different venues and infrastructure.  No one bothers to sail a Moth if there isn't enough wind to foil, if the A class suddenly stops sailing in sub foiling conditions and requires a crane for launching, then they have blown it.  Other than that the class has completely rolled over its inventory twice in the last 14 years, seen the cost of the boats more than double, and become a bigger more prestigious deal every year. 

SHC



#96 ita 16

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 05:54 PM

Why does a moth foil well and cats do not. Not completely sure but here are some ideas.
1. The moth just happened to have the centreboard about half way back, near the CoG and hence a very good place to start with reasonable balance. It's move forward a lot in 10 years but being stable in the early days helped a lot. All the cats are starting with the rig and boards well aft of the CoG, starting out unstable.
2. The active control of the wand provides the other big contributor to longitudinal stability. The AC banned it so all the cat development since Rocker has ignored active control. I suspect the C Rocker was too big for the power of the wand, an A may not be but some people think it banned, so no one had yet tried one. I do not understand why the OD cat developers have ignored the wand.
3. A huge moth gain happens with windward heal, and its nothing to do with CoG shift to windward. It's all to do with unloading the verticals from their lateral resistance duty. At zero AoA the drag almost vanishes. Once up to speed the main lifting foils are much bigger than they need to be and so a lot of they available lift is redirected to windward lift by windward heal. 15 to 20 deg. You will need very long leeward verticals to get any cat to that angle of heal.
4. The obvious one is that you have twice the drag just in foil area and in Joints, curves or whatever alphabet shape you are playing with.
5. To date the only cats which has foiled upwind to advantage have been Oracle and Groupama C. Of the 6 $100M AC boats and 10? $1M CCats, that's a pretty poor success rate.

All the cat foiling development (except the 14ft Italian one) have worked on the AC concept developed to bypass the AC no foiling rule. Hopefully that rule will go for next time and some sensible development will happen, but if they still need 6 gorillas continuously pumping oil it hardly seems relevant to small boats, especially one man boats.

I fully agree



#97 WetnWild

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 08:36 PM

Thanks Juniordave for the forecast. When you get here tomorrow Dougy the Gun will be the one out foiling in 30 knots. WetnWild will drinking Coronas in the Taco bar. See you then.

Can confirm the Belgian Beer Cafe sells Coronas and the Stella is quite nice too.
Oh, and Dougy has foiled off the edge of the earth

#98 juniordave nz

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 08:55 PM

Blowing its tits off in takapuna this morning. Briefing delayed an hour. Don't think there will be any racing today

#99 juniordave nz

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 08:57 PM

Blowing its tits off in takapuna this morning. Briefing delayed an hour. Don't think there will be any racing today

#100 Turtle

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 10:03 PM

Question:  If the class opens up to unrestricted foiling, are there enough A-Class boats around and enough will around to create a box-rule pre-foiling Class for everyone not interested (or too fat) to foil?  You really could have something as successful as the Finn Masters are in Europe, with 2-300 boats at all major events.

 

Don't get me started!

 

Apologies for taking this thread further off topic, but I have been banging on about this for some time.

 

I have had 3 A-cats (Boyers Mk III, IV and V) and would re-join the class in a heartbeat if finances allowed (and I wasn't so phat).  A 75kg A-cat with a flat bottom, carbon mast and straight boards is a wonderful boat in its own right and only 'slow' against newer boats.  Is there a place for a one-design single handed 18 footer?  I'm thinking something along the lines of:

  • Hulls similar to the Boyer Mark V or Flyer (Flat bottom.  Fatter stern.  Main beam moved back.  Capable of home build in composite, or production hulls).
  • Carbon beams (platform to be bolted together).
  • Straight centreboards.
  • Winglets on the rudders (for pitch stability).
  • Carbon mast.
  • Max. trailerable width.
  • A bit more horsepower than an A-Class.
  • Less than 100kg (to allow for a ding-resistant hulls and possibly a stronger mast).

Don't get me wrong - I love the A-cat and I love watching the development.  It just seems to be getting harder and harder to keep playing...

 

New thread?

Why not go with a singlehanded F16?  Fits most of your requirements and has a spinnaker.







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