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A Cat Worlds 2014 Takapuna

A Class Catamaran Worlds New Zealand

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#201 Wild Oats

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:25 AM

Lot more wind 15 to 25 I'm just going out on the yacht today for a look at the second race

#202 Sailbydate

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 01:33 AM

Lot more wind 15 to 25 I'm just going out on the yacht today for a look at the second race

Thanks for your pics, WO. Enjoy your afternoon.



#203 Wild Oats

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:51 AM

Stunning day today

Attached Files



#204 DtM

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:31 AM

Any results?

#205 Sailbydate

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:54 AM

Good day for Peter Burling in Auckland

"Rising New Zealand star Peter Burling emerged from a day of carnage to top the table at the A-Class world catamaran championships in Auckland today."

 

Go here: http://www.stuff.co....ing-in-Auckland



#206 Titan

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 06:34 AM

Results

 

http://www.sailingev...and 4 ,2014.pdf

 

http://www.mysailing...-a-class-worlds

 

http://www.stuff.co....ing-in-Auckland



#207 RobG

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:02 AM

A few broken bits is hardly "carnage". Seems Ashby is still the one to beat, though Burling is having a great couple of years. WTF is a "great grand master" doing in 3rd?!!



#208 Thing1

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:20 AM

Sailing well and not breaking shit - landy as well. Go the oldies greys!



#209 pulsarAcat

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:20 AM

some news about A Class WGM ?

#210 SimonN

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:21 AM

Just seen a post from Dario on facebook to say rule change motion has been defeated. Discuss!



#211 Thing1

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:29 AM

Re rule change:

 

Great, cause it was a bad idea. BTW, what was the ruling on landys cassette boards?



#212 WickedF18

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:31 AM

Juniordave,

 

Any chance of posting some pictures of the broken bit's on Glenns rudders and Nathans plate case.



#213 Catnewbie

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:57 AM

Hi Everybody.

 

Can we imagine that after this World, we will have new datas to elaborate new polars for these new foiling A-Cat;

 

In many topics regarding A-Cat it seems to me that USA 230 has already provided the anarchist community with a lot of "polar" datas.

 

It could be interesting to gather all these datas in a dedicated topic???  Or is it a stupid and irrelevant suggestion???

 

Cheers

 



#214 WetnWild

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:12 AM


Just seen a post from Dario on facebook to say rule change motion has been defeated. Discuss!


Nothing to discuss. The members from around the world voted against any changes. Carry on as you were

#215 SimonN

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:13 AM

I believe Landy's cases have been ruled as legal. Landy did them because he was sure they were legal and I had already got an informal interpretation on it as well. Because some people who didn't understand the rules kicked up a fuss, the tec committee looked at it again. In addition, there are presidents in other international classes for cases within cases.

 

As for the rule changes being bad, I have to admit I thought so until I realised how bad the alternative is, which is what we have now. That has only become clear at this worlds. What we are now left with are boats that can foil, but are way harder to sail on foils than Moths and which require you to be one of the most gifted sailors in the world to foil properly.  It's not a case of just needing more development. I have spent the last 2 days speaking to one of the best foil designers out there and he has convinced me of that. Lots to do to make them faster, but few options to make it easier.

 

The class either needs to change the rules to totally ban foiling (which can't happen now!) or they need to free it up.



#216 scribe

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:29 AM

Images from race 3,   Check out row four down, second from left

 

http://www.sailingev...rlds-12-02-2014



#217 Sonofagun

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:38 AM

 
As for the rule changes being bad, I have to admit I thought so until I realised how bad the alternative is, which is what we have now.
 
The class either needs to change the rules to totally ban foiling (which can't happen now!) or they need to free it up.


What a load of drivel.

#218 Terry Hollis

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:44 AM

Images from race 3,   Check out row four down, second from left

 

http://www.sailingev...rlds-12-02-2014

 

Nice set .. Well done



#219 juniordave nz

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:44 AM

Cassettes are in, rule changes are out. Go cut a hole in your boat.

Re-photos, haven't taken any. Bottom bolt on Glenns rudder pintels broke from fatigue, when that went, the top one went as well.

I dropped my mast on the way out today, so had other things to worry about.



#220 Sonofabitch

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:14 AM

I have spent the last 2 days speaking to one of the best foil designers out there and he has convinced me of that.


Who in hell could talk to you for 2 days?

Don't you mean you spent 2 days telling him all you know?

Must have talked slowly

#221 evenflow

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 12:43 PM

Okay, the important question... how does one get a job doing this stuff?



#222 Doug Lord

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:34 PM

I believe Landy's cases have been ruled as legal. Landy did them because he was sure they were legal and I had already got an informal interpretation on it as well. Because some people who didn't understand the rules kicked up a fuss, the tec committee looked at it again. In addition, there are presidents in other international classes for cases within cases.

 

As for the rule changes being bad, I have to admit I thought so until I realised how bad the alternative is, which is what we have now. That has only become clear at this worlds. What we are now left with are boats that can foil, but are way harder to sail on foils than Moths and which require you to be one of the most gifted sailors in the world to foil properly.  It's not a case of just needing more development. I have spent the last 2 days speaking to one of the best foil designers out there and he has convinced me of that. Lots to do to make them faster, but few options to make it easier.

 

The class either needs to change the rules to totally ban foiling (which can't happen now!) or they need to free it up.

 

Simon, isn't it possible- given the remarkable development that has already occured under the rule as it is- that some brilliant sailors will find a solution to improve the ease of foiling? Maybe the cassette ruling will make that more likely?

This is an extraordinary class undergoing some fantastic development in technology and sailing skills-it seems reasonable to expect further refinement under the current rule. I'd bet on it.

What do you think?



#223 BalticBandit

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:37 PM

Doug again proof that you don't know shit because you've never sailed anything that is a performance boat.  these folks already would have sorted out the "ease of foiling" thing if it was that easy.  You saying its an extraordinary class is like a 4 year old saying the "rockets are cool"... yes they are cool, but the baby has no basis for evaluating what "cool" is

 

shut up and crawl back in your little hole.  Hell your notion of a high performance boat is one who's foam plug is shaped by someone who's prior experience comes from shaping foam for lawn gnomes.



#224 david r

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:09 PM

In the interview on CSN, designer Martin F. claims he will design a proper foiler if the A guys vote against opening up the rules.  He actually stated that Proper Hydrofoils will not hamper performance in the 4 knot winds based on Groupama's performance.  I think the performance of the Groupama in the light stuff was enhanced by the rig not the foils though.  Consider the abysmal light wind performance of the Hydros boats.  Anyway it will be interesting if he follows up on his threat.  He seemed to be somewhat emotional in the interview though.
  I contend that the cross over wind will be higher than 4knts on a 1 person foiler.  I hope i am wrong though.  
The videos make the A foiling look easy, but video also makes getting barreled at Pipeline look easy.  Many sports have a level at the top that is way beyond weekend warrior status.  Is that a problem?
The other side of the new foils on As is the statement by the DNA guys that the boat can be sailed more safely off the wind in a breeze.  So the boat is improved for all "trapping downwind"  users right there, as is.

Also when the Strapped guys first put the airchair foil on a tow-in surfboard it appeared that you would need an incredible sense of balance to ride it.  Now they are racing hydrofoil kite boards, which are a very similar craft, around an upwind - downwind track, and more people are getting into it.   Evolution….


ps. BB, i will join the group of readers that is asking you to give it a rest on your vendetta against DL.  Please let us make up our own mind on the issue of weather we should read his posts.  
Shaping lawn gnomes from foam is a funny expression, but hand shaping is headed toward extinction these days.  It is starting to be pretty rare to buy a hand shaped foam surfboard these days, much less a lawn gnome.  Genius move on my part to learn that skill…doh
Although i am convinced that it is possible to make a nice set of hulls in styro/composite construction.



#225 Sonofagun

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:38 PM

Agree david r, evolution works. Square top rigs, FRP hulls, carbon masts, wave piercing hulls, C boards, winglets, J boards.

Does that make MF a creationist? Disrespectful I apologise.

Back to the Worlds... Great to see a a couple great grand masters mixing it with the pros. Scott may win if the pros have one more breakage. Murray looks like he,s having fun foiling and crashing? Point is both have at the pointy end of the class since the eighties, and are still competing to win.

Mastering a foiling A looks like fun and will bring even more of the next generation into the class.

#226 SimonN

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 09:21 PM

Doug

I think you might be carried away and not used the reasonable knowledge of foiling you do have. Think about it for a moment, based on everything you know. There are 2 problems First, to gain stable flight, there needs to be some adjustment mechanism. At the moment, the only adjustment mechanism is the person sailing, who does it through steering and mainsheet. Wands and flaps are out. That leaves something like the Groupama/Flying Phantom solution. The (2nd) problem is that the restriction on no foils closer to the centreline than 750mm doesn't give enough room to get that solution, plus if you do a class legal case (insert from the top), even using a system like Landy's, you end up with too open an angle on the foil and run into the problems the Hydros guys had, without the ability to adjust constantly on the water. Further, the 750mm rule gives you less than 400mm of lifting surface, which simply isn't enough .

 

I wish I could claim these comments as my own, but they are actually what I have picked up from people who design lifting foils for a living. When I get the same story from an AC designer and a moth foil designer, plus that story makes sense, I tend to think they may know more than any of us on here.

 

As for  Martin Fischer managing to design an A Class legal foiler, I will believe it when I see it! To date, it seems like Martin has had at least 5 attempts to create a foiler, all of which have failed. We have seen the Mayfly and Paradox in the A's, the GS32 also failed to properly foil and yesterday I was told that his foils for Groupama and the Flying Phantom were rejected after testing. This is the guy who attacked people on forums who dared to say that the Mayfly wouldn't work, or that the Paradox wouldn't work, for not knowing what they were talking about and that he had it all worked out. Yet his boats didn't work, while others did. After the mayfly and Paradox, I am not sure anybody in the A's is going to invest any more money into Martin Fischer designs. It's cost some very good people lots and lots of money which they will never get back. And yes, if I sound bitter it is for a reason - Martin Fischer and his over confidence has cost friends of mine money they couldn't afford to lose.



#227 Doug Lord

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:05 PM

Doug

I think you might be carried away and not used the reasonable knowledge of foiling you do have. Think about it for a moment, based on everything you know. There are 2 problems First, to gain stable flight, there needs to be some adjustment mechanism. At the moment, the only adjustment mechanism is the person sailing, who does it through steering and mainsheet. Wands and flaps are out. That leaves something like the Groupama/Flying Phantom solution. The (2nd) problem is that the restriction on no foils closer to the centreline than 750mm doesn't give enough room to get that solution, plus if you do a class legal case (insert from the top), even using a system like Landy's, you end up with too open an angle on the foil and run into the problems the Hydros guys had, without the ability to adjust constantly on the water. Further, the 750mm rule gives you less than 400mm of lifting surface, which simply isn't enough .

 

I wish I could claim these comments as my own, but they are actually what I have picked up from people who design lifting foils for a living. When I get the same story from an AC designer and a moth foil designer, plus that story makes sense, I tend to think they may know more than any of us on here.

 

So your answer to my simple respectful, question is that "You(I) might be carried away and not used the reasonable knowledge of foiling you(I) do have". Can't say that I didn't expect a response from you that included some sort of personal attack(not just attacking me but Martin Fischer too-thats amazing).

However, I think that if you just look at the progress the class has made in the many boats foiling in this Worlds -that gives the Class a lot more credit than you give it.

I remember when the first "foiler killing" rule was introduced and passed how many were upset that now the class would never foil. Others, of course, (like you I imagine) were quite happy for all the "normal" reasons. Now, it's taken a long time but despite the foiler killer rule boats are foiling in the Worlds! And my simple, respectful, question to you was that given all that progress over all these years and given the resourcefullness of A Class sailors, isn't it reasonable to think that "ease of foiling" could be solved as well? But you chose to go off on one of your irrelevant tangents and into attack mode on two people in one post!

-----

Using the "reasonable knowledge of foiling" that you credit me with(this time) I'm amazed that you can't see the writing on the wall: there is so much not known about foiling-hell,"experts" might have said there is no way anyone on foils using four foils in the water will lead an A Class worlds ever. "Experts" can say  a lot of things ,as you know, and many of them distinguish themselves by how wrong they have been so in analyzing whats possible in the A Class catamaran, perhaps it's best to ignore the experts and look at the results already achieved in this class-extraordinary stuff! To think that whats happening now is the end of this kind of innovation is nonsense.

First you have to fly, Second you have to make it easier to fly. And thats what is and what's going to happen.



#228 Tcatman

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:10 PM

Many sports have a level at the top that is way beyond weekend warrior status.  Is that a problem?

 

If you use the same bat and ball... no problem.

 

In this case... It depends on what kind of class you want to play in. and at what level of commitment. .   Consider,  The USA moth circuit is 5 regattas in 2014 at 4 venues...   That is not a weekend warrior schedule... that is a campaign schedule with 5 national events plus a  worlds event schedule.   What are the numbers who want that kind of class.... what kind of flush will you see in the existing A class.     Steve clark noted that the class is scheduled for 3 sea changes in equipment in 12 years.  What is the nature of the competition for A Class  at all levels going forward...



#229 PJD

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:38 PM

We are living in 2014...  all things change quicker nowadays ... get used to it.

Do we want the coolest class or what ?

Plenty of  other classes to choose out of.

Let the development run . It's the nature of the A class which made it as is now. Probably the hottest one person boat around.

Just regulate extremities like the cassettes.

The A cat will be flying stable within a year . Within the rules .

Dozens of smart guys are figuring that out.  Thats the beauty of the class isn't it ?



#230 SimonN

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 10:52 PM

Doug

 

There was no way I intended it as a personal attack on you and if you took it as that, I am sorry. I would argue that after the comments from BB, my comments were meant to acknowledge your understanding and were meant as a way of cooling the jets of those attacking you.. You really need to get less sensitive, because very few people are prepared to give you the time of day and I did.

 

But with all due respect to your knowledge, I will take the views of those who do this for a living over your blind faith.



#231 Doug Lord

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:01 PM

Doug

 

There was no way I intended it as a personal attack on you and if you took it as that, I am sorry. I would argue that after the comments from BB, my comments were meant to acknowledge your understanding and were meant as a way of cooling the jets of those attacking you.. You really need to get less sensitive, because very few people are prepared to give you the time of day and I did.

 

But with all due respect to your knowledge, I will take the views of those who do this for a living over your blind faith.

 

Thanks, Simon. But I would argue that my "faith" is far from blind and is based on an understanding of the real development that has already been accomplished-and what that means for the remaining problems. "PJD" is 100% right(except: no more rule changes-cassettes are legal)

First you fly, Second, you make it easier to fly.....



#232 david r

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:28 PM

At the moment, the only adjustment mechanism is the person sailing, who does it through steering and mainsheet.

 

dude, you left out body weight management.  They are swinging on a trap line.

Look at the N17; they are balancing on the C foils alone without the winglets.  Like surfing, it's about the riders weight placement, at least partially.



#233 macca

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:44 PM


yesterday I was told that his foils for Groupama and the Flying Phantom were rejected after testing.


Simon,
You really should be careful about posting things that you heard from your best friends second cousins sister.... More often than not it's a long way from the truth.

Greetings from lorient, where there are a few multihull things happening and some designers and stuff doing things with boats and appendages and things :)

#234 scribe

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:25 AM

Will expensive foiling/carbon technology keep the class restricted to only those selective few who can afford to pay out for a new A every few years and have a fleet dominated by what are today professional sailors? what costs are we looking at to get into the class and hope to be reasonably competitive? 



#235 SimonN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:43 AM

Come on Doug. You know the facts. You need some sort of system to gain flight stability. It's pretty well established that the sailors cannot provide enough input on their own, even on boats with more than one person, but on a single hander you simply cannot do it. People have tried flapless Moths. Hydros tried constant adjustment and it failed. One might argue that Oracle and ETNZ used human adjustment, but that was to keep the foils within an operating range that allowed the foils to work automatically.

 

However, I know that you believe that it can be done (maybe you don't any more)  so let us suspend that part of the debate for a moment and consider what would happen if constant human adjustment was the way forward. We would simply be where we are now, because the level of skill needed to sail the boat constantly on foils while doing everything else would be beyond most sailors.

 

So we need to find some way of automating ride height feedback. Again, we can look at the past to know that this needs to be primarily done through the main foils, with maybe some help from the rudder foils. The big issue with rudder foil adjustment is that it simply takes too long - it is not a fine adjustment that can be done second by second. So we are left with finding something in the design of the main foils. Flaps and wands are out, so we are talking about a foil design that self regulates ride height.

 

Despite the Landy cassette solution, it is still not possible to fit a Groupama/Flying Phantom style board into the A Class rules. You don't have enough lateral width (max 400mm but in reality, probably only 300mm) and because stability comes from closed angles, you cannot get that into the case from above. The J's aren't capable of giving that sort of self adjustment. The twisting logic tried by Martin Fischer hasn't worked properly so far and comments from those who know far better than me, including some who have sailed his designs, leads me to believe that the problem is probably around way that leeway and height are closely coupled. I also believe that it is a very "draggy" solution" and gives away too much righting moment, a problem that becomes worse as the boat rises.

 

That gets to the end of current thinking. While I concede that maybe there is something that hasn't yet been thought of, it still has to work within very small limitations of the rules. I have yet to hear anybody with experience of designing foils say that they think there is enough scope to design something which will give the feedback loop needed.

 

In the mean time, people want to go foiling...........



#236 scribe

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 12:46 AM

images from the exploder site

 

https://www.facebook.com/exploder.info



#237 SimonN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:20 AM

Macca

 

If I am told something like that by one person, I take it with a pinch of salt. In this case, it made me call somebody else. When you hear the same thing from 2 people, the second being even closer to the team than a friends second cousins sister, you begin to think it might be true. However, for the sake of total correctness, let's acknowledge Martin was on the team  and therefore may have made a contribution to the foils. It still doesn't change the facts that the Mayfly didn't work properly, only flying at the top end of the wind scale, the Paradox never worked as intended despite a lot of development time and sailing from people who knew how to sail and that Dario had scrap the Fischer foils and start again, while your boat, which I think is a great project whether it flies or not, has not been photographed or filmed when foiling, despite what I believe were claims that it would do. But so that I am not accused of spreading rumours, can you tell us if the boat did foil properly and whether the foils are or have been redesigned? For clarity, please be assured that I am in no way having a go at anything about the GS32 which I really like and hope succeeds.

 

I am sorry if I seem to have it in for Martin, but when I questioned him on some of his assumptions about the Mayfly in what I believe was a respectful and sincere manner, he was arrogant, belittling and simply rude. Since then, faith in his ability to design foils has cost a number of different friends of mine significant money, yet he maintains the same air of arrogance and superiority. His very public comments and interviews makes it very reasonable to question the amount he has managed to deliver that works the way he claimed it would.



#238 Sonofagun

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:22 AM

Interesting debate anarchists, but wrong thread.

 

Try New stuff in the A Class.

 

This one is about the Worlds in Takapuna.... who's winning today?



#239 Scarecrow

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:26 AM

got to do something to fill the void left by very poor coverage....



#240 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:27 AM

Come on Doug. You know the facts. You need some sort of system to gain flight stability. It's pretty well established that the sailors cannot provide enough input on their own, even on boats with more than one person, but on a single hander you simply cannot do it. People have tried flapless Moths. Hydros tried constant adjustment and it failed. One might argue that Oracle and ETNZ used human adjustment, but that was to keep the foils within an operating range that allowed the foils to work automatically.

 

However, I know that you believe that it can be done (maybe you don't any more)  so let us suspend that part of the debate for a moment and consider what would happen if constant human adjustment was the way forward. We would simply be where we are now, because the level of skill needed to sail the boat constantly on foils while doing everything else would be beyond most sailors.

 

 

In the mean time, people want to go foiling...........

 

You say: "the level of skill needed to sail the boat constantly on foils while doing everything else would be beyond most sailors"- damned if I don't think I heard that once before. Where could that have been? Oh, yeah: in the Moth debates so many years ago!!

---

Do you realize what a significant thing it is that there are so many guys sailing on 4 foils in a Worlds with a chance to win? That in and of itself is DEVELOPMENT which this class is all about. Look how many years it has taken to beat the foiler killer rule-and now it is dead. The only thing we'd all like to see is a way to make it easier. Or maybe a whole lot more people will be able to learn how to foil the way those guys are doing it? And maybe as a little time goes by people will discover little things that, when coupled together, make it easier to fly? But the bottom line is that people on foils are in a very good position to win the first A Class Catamaran Worlds sailing on hydrofoils! Getting to that point is HUGE-an incredible triumph of relentless development within the class in the face of a rule designed to kill any aspirations by anyone to fly. And you don't think ,now that flying is being done at a level that will possibly allow someone to win the worlds, you don't think that with a little time and lots of work the innovators won't make it easier to fly??? I think you're way off base-the biggest part of the battle was to get the damn boats in the air-now that thats been done to such a high level that a win at the Worlds is possible it can only get better and that means easier......

All that Rocker may have taught us about 4 foil catamarans is just plain out the window because of these new foilers: it is possible to foil faster than a seahugger on 4 foils, it is possible to win an A Class Worlds foiling on 4 foils!  Again: it will only get better-probably incrementally, maybe because someone foiling now discovers a whole new system for altitude control(heave stability) but the cat is out of the bag and no one will turn back now.

First you fly,then you make it easier.....



#241 ACat

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:44 AM

In the Fisher Groupama video at the C Cat event last year Martin says both he and Verdier designed 2 sets of foils and tested them and they raced with the Verdier foils as they had better heave stability. Simon is correct on this one.

 

3:25 in on the video  



#242 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:51 AM

Macca

 

If I am told something like that by one person, I take it with a pinch of salt. In this case, it made me call somebody else. When you hear the same thing from 2 people, the second being even closer to the team than a friends second cousins sister, you begin to think it might be true. However, for the sake of total correctness, let's acknowledge Martin was on the team  and therefore may have made a contribution to the foils. It still doesn't change the facts that the Mayfly didn't work properly, only flying at the top end of the wind scale, the Paradox never worked as intended despite a lot of development time and sailing from people who knew how to sail and that Dario had scrap the Fischer foils and start again, while your boat, which I think is a great project whether it flies or not, has not been photographed or filmed when foiling, despite what I believe were claims that it would do. But so that I am not accused of spreading rumours, can you tell us if the boat did foil properly and whether the foils are or have been redesigned? For clarity, please be assured that I am in no way having a go at anything about the GS32 which I really like and hope succeeds.

 

I am sorry if I seem to have it in for Martin, but when I questioned him on some of his assumptions about the Mayfly in what I believe was a respectful and sincere manner, he was arrogant, belittling and simply rude. Since then, faith in his ability to design foils has cost a number of different friends of mine significant money, yet he maintains the same air of arrogance and superiority. His very public comments and interviews makes it very reasonable to question the amount he has managed to deliver that works the way he claimed it would.

 

Thats really interesting Simon, because when you questioned him on boatdesign he responded in detail to your questions even after your less than friendly comments earlier in the thread. I can't imagine Martin Fischer doing what you say he did and I hope you didn't just make that up-if you did you should apologize. Martin has been very helpful to me in answering my questions and posting in that boatdesign thread his detailed analysis of what went wrong with Mayfly. I don't see what is gained by using just part of the information on a topic like Mayfly to denigrate Martin Fischer-one of the great cat designers of our time. And to say that he was "arogant, belittling and simply rude" sounds like an entirely different person.

Here is Simon asking Martin a couple of questions: http://www.boatdesig...er-39616-3.html

posts 40-43.



#243 Chris O

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:55 AM

Simon, if you are going to give a modicum of props for what you deem as Doug's "foiling knowledge", it makes sense, no?, to look at what he has actually done in the realm.

 

A foiling model that was primarily designed by Dr. Sam - - - FAIL

 

A failed foiling aeroTHUD, which is still being claimed by Mr. Lord as having done the bad thing, but curiously, not one shred of pictorial, or video, proof exists that it actually happened. - - - FAIL

 

A four-year-in-the-making scale model foiler of wildly claimed, set the world on fire potential, that still hasn't gotten its ass wet, much less proved that it can get out of the water and do it with some modicum of stability - - - FAIL

 

That is it. The sum total of Doug's displayed knowledge. Me thinks you give credit just to smooth the edges of your usual banter with the poseur, who goes by the name of Doug.

 

Probably best to stick to the journey at hand and keep the faker out of the mix. If and when he does get his four year old parts bin atrocity out on the water, then depending on what actually happens, you can reassess, or simply cast him a token life line as a dude who is going down to meet Davy Jones.

 

.



#244 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:55 AM

Interesting debate anarchists, but wrong thread.

 

Try New stuff in the A Class.

 

This one is about the Worlds in Takapuna.... who's winning today?

 

I don't think it's the wrong thread at all....

Here is a summary of all the news about the Worlds for today 2/12/14 including results etc: http://www.boatdesig...sday-49610.html



#245 Rushman

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:48 AM

Interesting debate anarchists, but wrong thread.
 
Try New stuff in the A Class.
 
This one is about the Worlds in Takapuna.... who's winning today?

 
I don't think it's the wrong thread at all....
Here is a summary of all the news about the Worlds for today 2/12/14 including results etc: http://www.boatdesig...sday-49610.html
Lots of posts made by the one person.... Hardly worth the trouble to follow the link

#246 Foghorn77

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:01 AM

Interesting debate anarchists, but wrong thread.

 

Try New stuff in the A Class.

 

This one is about the Worlds in Takapuna.... who's winning today?

+10000000000000000000

 

 Someone also needs to start the  "Hooray for Doug Lord / I hate Doug Lord" thread to get all of this tripe out of what WAS a great thread ( as well as others). Then Doug and all of his haters and supporters can consolidate this crap, and repeat themselves ad nauseam, instead of ruining every thread that has the word "Foil" in it. It  gets really Fucking old.



#247 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:01 AM

 

Interesting debate anarchists, but wrong thread.
 
Try New stuff in the A Class.
 
This one is about the Worlds in Takapuna.... who's winning today?

 
I don't think it's the wrong thread at all....
Here is a summary of all the news about the Worlds for today 2/12/14 including results etc: http://www.boatdesig...sday-49610.html
Lots of posts made by the one person.... Hardly worth the trouble to follow the link

 

Yeah, right. Theres only one post that matters for today and thats the one with all the links to what happened today. Geez.....



#248 Chris O

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:18 AM

Someone also needs to start the  "Hooray for Doug Lord / I hate Doug Lord" thread to get all of this tripe out of what WAS a great thread

 

 

It's still a great thread. Nothing there has changed

 

 

 

Then Doug and all of his haters and supporters can consolidate this crap, and repeat themselves ad nauseam, instead of ruining every thread that has the word "Foil" in it.

 

 

So, why don't you start one if it's such a great idea?

 

Your concept of "a great thread" is inconsistent with everything here on SA. When the Ed's skinhead jumps into threads all the time to make similar comments, one would think that the standard has been set a long time ago. If that is true, then perhaps it is you who are out of phase. Or, are Candyland and Chutes and Ladders more to your liking?... ;-)

 

.



#249 SimonN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:23 AM

2 things, Doug. First, it's rather bad form to post a link to a thread on another forum where all you have done is to provide links to other things. Secondly, you have posted a link to one exchange between Martin and myself. Do you even know of the others? I am not going to trawl back over the last 3 years to find the links, and maybe, like you, I was over sensitive at the time, but all I do know for sure is that Martin has failed to get an A to foil properly, despite his confident predictions that he could, and I believe that is because his ideas are flawed. Of course, I might be wrong and there are other reasons why those A's haven't flown, but that clouds the issue. Twice he has designed A's to foil. Twice they haven't delivered. Add to that the GC32 and that is 3 out of three. In the case of the GC32, it is fortunate that it is a great boat anyway and that it isn't trying to compete against others in the same class. I really do hope it has a great future, with or without foiling.



#250 Foghorn77

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:42 AM

Someone also needs to start the  "Hooray for Doug Lord / I hate Doug Lord" thread to get all of this tripe out of what WAS a great thread

 

 

It's still a great thread. Nothing there has changed

 

 

 

>Then Doug and all of his haters and supporters can consolidate this crap, and repeat themselves ad nauseam, instead of ruining every thread that has the word "Foil" in it.

 

 

So, why don't you start one if it's such a great idea?

 

Your concept of "a great thread" is inconsistent with everything here on SA. When the Ed's skinhead jumps into threads all the time to make similar comments, one would think that the standard has been set a long time ago. If that is true, then perhaps it is you who are out of phase. Or, are Candyland and Chutes and Ladders more to your liking?... ;-)

 

.

 

Chris ,Maybe you're right. I must be "out of phase " to hope a thread titled A Cat Worlds Takapuna might actually stay on topic without repeating everything that has been posted in New stuff... thread, whilst having you two fling your shit at each other like you do on every thread. Not even saying I disagree with you for squaring away the DL, it just gets old to have to filter through it to find the real info, and SA has the best of that, until you guys fuck it all up. Sounds to me like infantile games are your field and you demonstrate that incessantly.



#251 Chris O

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:01 AM

So, Foggy, when are you going to stand Mr. Lord upright and call it like you see it? I didn't see that happening. Instead, you just let the crapola run right along in your "really cool thread" and by its very representation, it was polluting the environment in spades.

 

For the record, I have had very little to say about Lord for quite some time now and only chime in when it is, in my estimation, too much and too sloppy.  My personal apologies to you for getting in his face, but the process of allowing it, means that one might as well endorse it. I, too, was having a great time reading along, quietly, but that outburst directed at Simon, who is a damn sight better connected to the source of information than is Doug, was just over the top for me.

 

If the slop needs to be corrected, then it's simple... I politely ask that you correct Lord. Yes, I know, he will not respond to gentle admonition and is, essentially, a knuckledragger who has no sense of propriety. Still, it must be done every once in awhile or the boy simply unleashes his romper room diatribes without restriction.

 

Back to reading and learning mode.

 

Out.



#252 RobG

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:06 AM

… so let us suspend that part of the debate for a moment and consider what would happen if constant human adjustment was the way forward. We would simply be where we are now, because the level of skill needed to sail the boat constantly on foils while doing everything else would be beyond most sailors.

 

You say: "the level of skill needed to sail the boat constantly on foils while doing everything else would be beyond most sailors"- damned if I don't think I heard that once before. Where could that have been? Oh, yeah: in the Moth debates so many years ago!!

 

For those coming to Moths, unless they already have a high level of skill in performance skiffs or windsurfers, or very high level of skill in other boats, it takes anything from weeks to months to learn to sail the boat at all reasonably, and longer again before they can get around a course. And the difference between the top and bottom of the fleet at a Nationals is huge, the front runners can expect to lap maybe 10% of the fleet in a 30 minute, 3 lap race. So once you can get around a course reasonably competently, there is still a huge learning curve.

 

Moths have become "easier" only because there is now a good amount of knowledge about how to set them up and sail them. It has also helped that there are a few production boats that more–or–less "just work" out of the box, provided everything has been setup correctly.

 

From the limited video I've seen, foiling As are (at best!) a handful. It may get easier for the same reasons that Moths have become "easier", but foiling an A will be a significant challenge for the foreseeable future. In contrast to a Moth, a non–foiling A is probably pretty easy to sail in moderate conditions if sailed conservatively, it's only when attempting to trap downwind or foil that they become diabolical. Moths are diabolical the moment they start to float, there really is no off button once the rig is up.

 

Foiling can be completely eliminated from the A class through rule changes, but is that what the class really wants? 



#253 Foghorn77

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:16 AM

So, Foggy, when are you going to stand Mr. Lord upright and call it like you see it? I didn't see that happening. Instead, you just let the crapola run right along in your "really cool thread" and by its very representation, it was polluting the environment in spades.

 

For the record, I have had very little to say about Lord for quite some time now and only chime in when it is, in my estimation, too much and too sloppy.  My personal apologies to you for getting in his face, but the process of allowing it, means that one might as well endorse it. I, too, was having a great time reading along, quietly, but that outburst directed at Simon, who is a damn sight better connected to the source of information than is Doug, was just over the top for me.

 

If the slop needs to be corrected, then it's simple... I politely ask that you correct Lord. Yes, I know, he will not respond to gentle admonition and is, essentially, a knuckledragger who has no sense of propriety. Still, it must be done every once in awhile or the boy simply unleashes his romper room diatribes without restriction.

 

Back to reading and learning mode.

 

Out.

You know better than anyone that it just eggs the troll on, like gas on a flame. If busting his balls worked he would have been gone long ago, but obviously it doesn't. There really is no correcting him without unleashing a flow of verbal diarrhea. It goes away quicker if you recognize it for what it is and  just ignore it.   I was sorry to see Simon get sucked into it as well.



#254 Titan

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:49 AM

http://www.mysailing...nds-wreak-havoc

 

http://www.stuff.co....ss-world-champs



#255 WetnWild

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 05:57 AM

Get a room guys. Too much wanking going on in public here.

#256 Sonofagun

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:11 AM

Foiling can be completely eliminated from the A class through rule changes, but is that what the class really wants? 

 

That's what the World meeting decided... no rule changes. Carry on

 

 

Who won WetnWild?



#257 Terry Hollis

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:19 AM

Results after six races ..

 

http://www.sailingeventstakapuna.com/media/files/Sailwave%20results%20for%202014%20A-Class%20World%20Championships%20at%20Takapuna%20Boating%20Club%202014.pdf 



#258 kiwi_jon

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:12 AM

A-Class.jpg



#259 SimonN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:33 AM

Thanks for your comments, Rob. It's strange how people who actually sail foiling boats understand, yet somebody who doesn't has no idea at all. There is a thread on Facebook at the moment going through the same thing. John Ilett chipped into that one with the comment that he agreed on how hard the A's are to foil, adding "you can see how hard it is to maintain any stability since they are steering so heavily". Then, when you risen to Nathan talking about foiling an A and how "interesting it is trapezing, foiling and trying to stay on the side of the boat, you know it isn't easy.

 

Unlike the Moth, when everybody was in uncharted territory, we now know a hell of a lot more about how to foil and what makes foiling hard and easy. You simply watch Nathan doing his thing in the lighter stuff on the A - it's all the tricks he has learnt from Moth sailing and some.

 

I realise we cannot totally discount an entirely new idea for automating ride height for the A's, but as long as there isn't anything and all the input comes from how the sailor steers, sheets and moves around the boat, it will remain something very hard to master and definitely a lot harder than a moth.



#260 scribe

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:27 AM

Youtube has a video page of the Takapuna A world's racing but you have to sign up to TVstreambox.net, select ESPN to see anything for a onetime fee of $30 Has anyone done this and seen the races?



#261 BalticBandit

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:07 AM

Fog, busting DL's balls is an incomplete solution, but the record is pretty clear, if everyone busts his balls he either flames out enough that they ban him, or he crawls back under his rock.    It is only the combination of him getting his balls busted and others letting him be that makes him believe that "some" are "appreciating his posts".

 

I bust his balls because I'm tired of his destroying threads.  I full well understand the distraction that causes, but to me its a bit like chasing flies in the summer.  Someone's gotta do it or the room gets inffested.



#262 WetnWild

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:11 AM


got to do something to fill the void left by very poor coverage....


You must be living in a 19th century vacuum. There is stuff everywhere.

#263 Liquid Assett NZ

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:12 AM

Burlings 11 will haunt him how many races till the second discard ??



#264 kiwi_jon

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:24 AM

^

 

There are no more discards. There are 3 more races left.

 

Tomorrow is a lay day, 2 races on sat and 1 race on sun.



#265 kiwi_jon

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:27 AM

Youtube has a video page of the Takapuna A world's racing but you have to sign up to TVstreambox.net, select ESPN to see anything for a onetime fee of $30 Has anyone done this and seen the races?

 

Scam. There is no live sailing coverage, ESPN or anybody else.



#266 Sonofagun

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:35 AM

Landy's in good shape, dropping 9 vs 15+ for the other contenders. Light wind forecast the weekend....

#267 AClass USA 230

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:38 PM

For those on this thread who are currently not active A-Class sailors and/or who have never sailed the boat.

The decision of the class as a whole to not change the current rules is because we are a cautious and conservative lot that do have a vested interest in how the boat and class evolves. I don't think you can appreciate that perspective until you own an A-Class and you actively sail and race it.

It's important to note that the top five at the WC currently are paid pro sailors. Theyare great guys, very approachable, and very supportive to their fellow sailors. But they do enjoy the advantage of someone else paying the bills when it comes to the equipment they are racing in this event. They understand the implications of what can happen if the class rules are changed to where the average A-Class sailor's financial means cannot keep up with the development. How many of you can afford to race a C-class?

I consider myself in great physical condition for my age (55 years old). We have a huge range of sailors in this class from their 20's to their 70's that have been able to race the boat across the wind range of our class rules (5-22 knots). The boats have become much easier, safer, and more enjoyable to sail with the addition of curved daggerboards and rudder winglets. But there is no doubt that foil packages that actually fly the boat will raise the physical requirements to sail the boat. I'm excited but at the same time concerned that I may not have the physical stamina and agility to competitively race the boat at the performance levels I am seeing at this WC. If the physical requirements to sail the boat increase by say 25%, we could see a vacuum created that would need to be filled by younger sailors who probably do not have the financial means to own the boat (a Moth is 1/2 the price if you want to foil).

As the boats start to fly and the speeds increase to the low to mid 20's, mistakes will be harsh on not only the sailor's bodies but on the structure of the boat itself. The current boats are amazingly strong and durable. If we start to routinely fly, it remains to be seen whether the boat's can handle the different load and torque dynamics on a routine basis. Crashing at over 20 knots of boatspeed will be hard on a boat that only weighs 75 kg and has a 29' tall lever arm pushing the bows down, totally different dynamics than a Moth going over the cliff. If breakages and failures get out of control as the boats begin to fly, there is the potential for another vacuum to get created both in terms of losing sailors but also builders who get driven out of business because they cannot keep up with the warranty claims. There is also the insurance question. If the A-clas becomes a boat that has the potential for substantial damage in a routine "crash", no insurance company will want to offer coverage. Some will not insure our boats due to mast breakage claims.

From my own standpoint, I don't need to foil for the pure sensation of speed. I own a quiver of sailboards that in 15-18 knots are capable of sailing faster that an A-Cat will ever go even on foils and I can do that at a lot cheaper cost and at much less risk to my body and my financial investment in equipment. That is a perspective that I believe many in our class share.

I'll speculate that it's possible Landy's strategy for racing a "conventional" boat is to not only sail what he is the most comfortable with but also to be a benchmark in this championship that will be important for the direction he leads the class as its class president. Scott Anderson's performance so far is a great reference point as he typically does not trapeze downwind nor is he sailing a foiling package I believe. Scott is also in his late 50's so represents what is possible competing against the younger guns in the top five that have the financial support of TNZ. If the breeze truly lightens to the 5-8 knot range for racing later this week, it will be very interesting to see how Landy and Scott perform. This is an exciting but kind of scary moment for the class. I hope we make the right choices to keep the class as vibrant as it currently is.

Bob Hodges - A-Class USA 230

#268 Foghorn77

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:58 PM

Well written post Bob. It represents my thoughts as well, especially the financial aspect for the average A sailor.

Something no one seems to bring up is location of your sailing. North America has less wind at it's sailing venues (in general) than Aus. or NZ where the majority of support (and talent) is coming from. 

 

Todd Hart  A-class USA- 42
 



#269 Steve Clark

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:22 PM

Will expensive foiling/carbon technology keep the class restricted to only those selective few who can afford to pay out for a new A every few years and have a fleet dominated by what are today professional sailors? what costs are we looking at to get into the class and hope to be reasonably competitive? 

We already have a pace of development that is pretty expensive.  Masts, sails, boards and rudders have been evolving fast and it isn't really likely that the "pretty good" sailor who buys a top end boat and sails it on the weekends is going to be competitive for long without a program of upgrades that is going to run a few thousand a year. That's before you start down the add on effects.

Curved boards make the best compromise hull shape "different" foiling necessitates "stiffer platforms" and different sails set on different masts. Serious players are rolling their gear over all the time, and that takes more commitment than just buying a boat and going sailing.

We have seen this before, and I reiterate my core point, what we have to maintain is the ability to sail the boats from the same type of beaches and clubs with just about the same amount of trouble as we have traditionally done.  We have to be able to roll into the water and sail away in short order. If foiling is faster on a regular basis, and early indications are that it is, then those who wish to be competitive will have to learn how and get the kit to do it. Those who don't will either be uncompetitive or leave the class. Figuring out foiling is no different than figuring out anything else: some will get it faster than others and those who work hard at it will most likely do it better than those who don't.  If the bad news is that you have to sail the A Cat more, that isn't an awful outcome.

Look:

There is nothing stopping anyone from showing up at an A Class regatta with a Boyer 2 with aluminum spars and beams.  They won't be near the front, but unlike many other activities, the likelihood of winning is not a precondition to participating.

SHC

SHC



#270 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:35 PM

Just re-posting Beau's videos so far:

 

Practice:  

 

 

 

 

Day 1/2

 

 

 



#271 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:39 PM

In the interview on CSN, designer Martin F. claims he will design a proper foiler if the A guys vote against opening up the rules.  He actually stated that Proper Hydrofoils will not hamper performance in the 4 knot winds based on Groupama's performance. 

Yeah except that the straight boards on the non foiling Canaan and the generations-old Cogito crushed Groupama whenever they went head to head in non-foiling conditions (<6 knots, or 8 in chop)



#272 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:42 PM

For those on this thread who are currently not active A-Class sailors and/or who have never sailed the boat.

The decision of the class as a whole to not change the current rules is because we are a cautious and conservative lot that do have a vested interest in how the boat and class evolves. I don't think you can appreciate that perspective until you own an A-Class and you actively sail and race it.

It's important to note that the top five at the WC currently are paid pro sailors. Theyare great guys, very approachable, and very supportive to their fellow sailors. But they do enjoy the advantage of someone else paying the bills when it comes to the equipment they are racing in this event. They understand the implications of what can happen if the class rules are changed to where the average A-Class sailor's financial means cannot keep up with the development. How many of you can afford to race a C-class?

I consider myself in great physical condition for my age (55 years old). We have a huge range of sailors in this class from their 20's to their 70's that have been able to race the boat across the wind range of our class rules (5-22 knots). The boats have become much easier, safer, and more enjoyable to sail with the addition of curved daggerboards and rudder winglets. But there is no doubt that foil packages that actually fly the boat will raise the physical requirements to sail the boat. I'm excited but at the same time concerned that I may not have the physical stamina and agility to competitively race the boat at the performance levels I am seeing at this WC. If the physical requirements to sail the boat increase by say 25%, we could see a vacuum created that would need to be filled by younger sailors who probably do not have the financial means to own the boat (a Moth is 1/2 the price if you want to foil).

As the boats start to fly and the speeds increase to the low to mid 20's, mistakes will be harsh on not only the sailor's bodies but on the structure of the boat itself. The current boats are amazingly strong and durable. If we start to routinely fly, it remains to be seen whether the boat's can handle the different load and torque dynamics on a routine basis. Crashing at over 20 knots of boatspeed will be hard on a boat that only weighs 75 kg and has a 29' tall lever arm pushing the bows down, totally different dynamics than a Moth going over the cliff. If breakages and failures get out of control as the boats begin to fly, there is the potential for another vacuum to get created both in terms of losing sailors but also builders who get driven out of business because they cannot keep up with the warranty claims. There is also the insurance question. If the A-clas becomes a boat that has the potential for substantial damage in a routine "crash", no insurance company will want to offer coverage. Some will not insure our boats due to mast breakage claims.

From my own standpoint, I don't need to foil for the pure sensation of speed. I own a quiver of sailboards that in 15-18 knots are capable of sailing faster that an A-Cat will ever go even on foils and I can do that at a lot cheaper cost and at much less risk to my body and my financial investment in equipment. That is a perspective that I believe many in our class share.

I'll speculate that it's possible Landy's strategy for racing a "conventional" boat is to not only sail what he is the most comfortable with but also to be a benchmark in this championship that will be important for the direction he leads the class as its class president. Scott Anderson's performance so far is a great reference point as he typically does not trapeze downwind nor is he sailing a foiling package I believe. Scott is also in his late 50's so represents what is possible competing against the younger guns in the top five that have the financial support of TNZ. If the breeze truly lightens to the 5-8 knot range for racing later this week, it will be very interesting to see how Landy and Scott perform. This is an exciting but kind of scary moment for the class. I hope we make the right choices to keep the class as vibrant as it currently is.

Bob Hodges - A-Class USA 230

 

Bob there are 60+ year olds racing moths, which will always be more acrobatic than the wider, stabler A boat.  you'll be fine!



#273 cbrown

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:55 PM

Ditto on Bob's and Steve's comments. As exciting as all of the foiling is, it feels as though the class is being lead by a handful of highly sponsored pros who have no stake in what happens to the majority of the fleet. Sailing A cats is such an awesome experience not only because  of their speed, agility, and simplicity, but because of the diversity of sailors who show up at regattas. I am afraid that as the costs and physical demands go up, the number of sailors willing to make that commitment will go down. I just hope that I don't end up "watching" and dreaming about the A class like I did the AC 72's.

Chris Brown A class USA 193



#274 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:30 PM

what is the most acute angle on any of these daggerboards?



#275 CarlC

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:09 PM

Woo hoo -- I just bought an A Cat.  Any others in Maine?



#276 Sailbydate

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:55 PM

Interesting perspective from A-class Cat sailors. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, guys.

 

I guess International Moth fleet owners went through the same exercise when foiling was introduced. Would THEY want to go back to low riders, I wonder?



#277 Liquid Assett NZ

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:13 PM

For those on this thread who are currently not active A-Class sailors and/or who have never sailed the boat.

The decision of the class as a whole to not change the current rules is because we are a cautious and conservative lot that do have a vested interest in how the boat and class evolves. I don't think you can appreciate that perspective until you own an A-Class and you actively sail and race it.

It's important to note that the top five at the WC currently are paid pro sailors. Theyare great guys, very approachable, and very supportive to their fellow sailors. But they do enjoy the advantage of someone else paying the bills when it comes to the equipment they are racing in this event. They understand the implications of what can happen if the class rules are changed to where the average A-Class sailor's financial means cannot keep up with the development. How many of you can afford to race a C-class?

I consider myself in great physical condition for my age (55 years old). We have a huge range of sailors in this class from their 20's to their 70's that have been able to race the boat across the wind range of our class rules (5-22 knots). The boats have become much easier, safer, and more enjoyable to sail with the addition of curved daggerboards and rudder winglets. But there is no doubt that foil packages that actually fly the boat will raise the physical requirements to sail the boat. I'm excited but at the same time concerned that I may not have the physical stamina and agility to competitively race the boat at the performance levels I am seeing at this WC. If the physical requirements to sail the boat increase by say 25%, we could see a vacuum created that would need to be filled by younger sailors who probably do not have the financial means to own the boat (a Moth is 1/2 the price if you want to foil).

As the boats start to fly and the speeds increase to the low to mid 20's, mistakes will be harsh on not only the sailor's bodies but on the structure of the boat itself. The current boats are amazingly strong and durable. If we start to routinely fly, it remains to be seen whether the boat's can handle the different load and torque dynamics on a routine basis. Crashing at over 20 knots of boatspeed will be hard on a boat that only weighs 75 kg and has a 29' tall lever arm pushing the bows down, totally different dynamics than a Moth going over the cliff. If breakages and failures get out of control as the boats begin to fly, there is the potential for another vacuum to get created both in terms of losing sailors but also builders who get driven out of business because they cannot keep up with the warranty claims. There is also the insurance question. If the A-clas becomes a boat that has the potential for substantial damage in a routine "crash", no insurance company will want to offer coverage. Some will not insure our boats due to mast breakage claims.

From my own standpoint, I don't need to foil for the pure sensation of speed. I own a quiver of sailboards that in 15-18 knots are capable of sailing faster that an A-Cat will ever go even on foils and I can do that at a lot cheaper cost and at much less risk to my body and my financial investment in equipment. That is a perspective that I believe many in our class share.

I'll speculate that it's possible Landy's strategy for racing a "conventional" boat is to not only sail what he is the most comfortable with but also to be a benchmark in this championship that will be important for the direction he leads the class as its class president. Scott Anderson's performance so far is a great reference point as he typically does not trapeze downwind nor is he sailing a foiling package I believe. Scott is also in his late 50's so represents what is possible competing against the younger guns in the top five that have the financial support of TNZ. If the breeze truly lightens to the 5-8 knot range for racing later this week, it will be very interesting to see how Landy and Scott perform. This is an exciting but kind of scary moment for the class. I hope we make the right choices to keep the class as vibrant as it currently is.

Bob Hodges - A-Class USA 230

 

 

I hope this decision isn't a mistake I think foiling A's are amazing and would put the class right up there as the new forward thinking boat 



#278 Sonofabitch

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:44 PM

Ditto on Bob's and Steve's comments. As exciting as all of the foiling is, it feels as though the class is being lead by a handful of highly sponsored pros who have no stake in what happens to the majority of the fleet. Sailing A cats is such an awesome experience not only because  of their speed, agility, and simplicity, but because of the diversity of sailors who show up at regattas. I am afraid that as the costs and physical demands go up, the number of sailors willing to make that commitment will go down. I just hope that I don't end up "watching" and dreaming about the A class like I did the AC 72's.
Chris Brown A class USA 193


Chris, You do Glenn a disservice. He has a huge stake in the class. Apart from supplying their sails, his mates sail at all levels of the fleet. He is passionate about the class and its future. He advocated for rule changes to make foiling easier for the fleet.

#279 pulsarAcat

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 07:52 PM

For those on this thread who are currently not active A-Class sailors and/or who have never sailed the boat.

The decision of the class as a whole to not change the current rules is because we are a cautious and conservative lot that do have a vested interest in how the boat and class evolves. I don't think you can appreciate that perspective until you own an A-Class and you actively sail and race it.

It's important to note that the top five at the WC currently are paid pro sailors. Theyare great guys, very approachable, and very supportive to their fellow sailors. But they do enjoy the advantage of someone else paying the bills when it comes to the equipment they are racing in this event. They understand the implications of what can happen if the class rules are changed to where the average A-Class sailor's financial means cannot keep up with the development. How many of you can afford to race a C-class?

I consider myself in great physical condition for my age (55 years old). We have a huge range of sailors in this class from their 20's to their 70's that have been able to race the boat across the wind range of our class rules (5-22 knots). The boats have become much easier, safer, and more enjoyable to sail with the addition of curved daggerboards and rudder winglets. But there is no doubt that foil packages that actually fly the boat will raise the physical requirements to sail the boat. I'm excited but at the same time concerned that I may not have the physical stamina and agility to competitively race the boat at the performance levels I am seeing at this WC. If the physical requirements to sail the boat increase by say 25%, we could see a vacuum created that would need to be filled by younger sailors who probably do not have the financial means to own the boat (a Moth is 1/2 the price if you want to foil).

As the boats start to fly and the speeds increase to the low to mid 20's, mistakes will be harsh on not only the sailor's bodies but on the structure of the boat itself. The current boats are amazingly strong and durable. If we start to routinely fly, it remains to be seen whether the boat's can handle the different load and torque dynamics on a routine basis. Crashing at over 20 knots of boatspeed will be hard on a boat that only weighs 75 kg and has a 29' tall lever arm pushing the bows down, totally different dynamics than a Moth going over the cliff. If breakages and failures get out of control as the boats begin to fly, there is the potential for another vacuum to get created both in terms of losing sailors but also builders who get driven out of business because they cannot keep up with the warranty claims. There is also the insurance question. If the A-clas becomes a boat that has the potential for substantial damage in a routine "crash", no insurance company will want to offer coverage. Some will not insure our boats due to mast breakage claims.

From my own standpoint, I don't need to foil for the pure sensation of speed. I own a quiver of sailboards that in 15-18 knots are capable of sailing faster that an A-Cat will ever go even on foils and I can do that at a lot cheaper cost and at much less risk to my body and my financial investment in equipment. That is a perspective that I believe many in our class share.

I'll speculate that it's possible Landy's strategy for racing a "conventional" boat is to not only sail what he is the most comfortable with but also to be a benchmark in this championship that will be important for the direction he leads the class as its class president. Scott Anderson's performance so far is a great reference point as he typically does not trapeze downwind nor is he sailing a foiling package I believe. Scott is also in his late 50's so represents what is possible competing against the younger guns in the top five that have the financial support of TNZ. If the breeze truly lightens to the 5-8 knot range for racing later this week, it will be very interesting to see how Landy and Scott perform. This is an exciting but kind of scary moment for the class. I hope we make the right choices to keep the class as vibrant as it currently is.

Bob Hodges - A-Class USA 230

 

Bob, your analysis is the best thing I have read on this subject
Congratulations

 

Christian Ugolini  -A-Class FRA 374 AFCCA secretary www.afcca.org



#280 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:23 PM

Well written Bob,

 

Keep it up as you are brining a clear and well thought out perspective to this debate.

 

Thanks,

TTS US-79



#281 atg

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:52 PM

To quote Anders Peterson (slightly out of context), these things look like gas lamps in the age of electricity.

 

I look at those videos and think "Oh how quaint - the catamarans are trying to figure out how to foil...downwind". How 1950s. Except even Monitor had active control on the rudder...

 

Either open the door and get something interesting and manageable on there, or close it. If foiling upwind is not in the design brief, it is probably not the sort of "advance" the A-class should wish to be associated with.



#282 Big Show

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:01 PM

"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." - George Bernard Shaw



#283 Tcatman

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:13 PM

Hmm... seems like this is where the class was the year after I bought a boat.....  fly or not...  They had a class consensus to not fly the  A class .The leadership  affirmatively did not want the class to fly and designed a rule to prevent that possibility.  .. However, it was founded on the erroneous notion that allowing these kinds of foils would not lead to where we are.... The class leadership pushed the rule to the rank and file and it passed.  ...    Well.... the rule allows the boat to fly... all be it... you have to be really good.  So...now what?

 

The consensus at the worlds has flipped and a majority seems to FAVOR flying the boats... (if that one post is accurate).

The judgement of a guy like GA seems  spot. on (if the post is accurate) and you can't question his loyalty to the class..  ... you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube...The boats fly... its just a matter of cost and user friendly.   What will the class leadership form a consensus around.   (I sure hope one guy is named Solomon). 

Taking a step back,... The class does not have to widely popular....   When I started sailing cats... the A class was a cute lake boat made of wood and rarely seen and never seen on the bays and certainly not the coastal beaches.  So, it does not have to be huge to be successful.  Perhaps the class takes the place along side the Flying Phantom as the single handed flying class.  I don't see any other possibility.

 

 

I still have a great rec boat! ...  and thanks to  SCHRS.... I have a great boat in open class.   Oh well, times change.



#284 SimonN

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:17 PM

Bob

While I agree with much of what you said, I believe the following comment is incorrect

 

 

They (paid pro sailors) understand the implications of what can happen if the class rules are changed to where the average A-Class sailor's financial means cannot keep up with development

 

I believe it is exactly the opposite of this. If this was so, there is no way that Glenn could get up at the Australian AGM and argue for so passionately for relaxing the rules to allow better foiling. The economics are simple. Free up the foiling rules and you will end up making the boats significantly more expensive. By way of example, look at rudders. When I came into the class 4 years ago, a good pair of rudder blades could be bought for less than $1000. Today, one of the favoured rudders in Oz is made by Mark Thorpe and with T foils on the bottom, they are $2000. Even under the current rules, there is so much more that can be done on rudders and I know somebody who is about to order Moth style t foil rudders costing $4000. They have to use very expensive, high modulus carbon laminates to be light enough, thin enough and strong enough. Then you have to consider that none of our boats are really strong enough. There is a reason why the Team NZ guys beefed up the transoms, and why they have still had rudder fitting failures. All of that costs money.

 

If you were to argue about our rules on financial grounds, you would fight to scrap C foils and winglets on the rudders. That would be a shame, because they make the boat better to sail. They have added a significant chunk to the cost of our boats at a time where the cost of a new boat has reached silly proportions. Freeing up the foil rules as Glenn argued for will add $7-10,000 to the cost of our boats, maybe not on day one but once development gets up to speed. In Oz, a DNA now costs over $47,000 to put on the water. A Nikita is over $53,000. Fortunately, the Exploder looks like a viable cheaper option, but I think we are still north of $40,000.

 

I believe that when the majority voted for changing the rule on foils, they gave no consideration to costs at all.

 

It is my belief that we are now in a sort of "no mans land" situation with boats that are ridiculously hard to sail and expensive. Part of the issue was that the rule changes proposed were a mess but in addition, people didn't understand the benefits and implications of changing the rules correctly. I do not believe we can leave the rules where they are. We either need boats that do not foil or boats that foil nicely. If it is the latter, we need to be very careful that the rules don't allow for development that will let costs spiral out of control.

 

This worlds has given us a glimpse of our future that we didn't really have before. Everybody I have spoken to over in NZ has dramatically changed their views on foiling, both for and against. It seems that many who have seen what is happening now realise that leaving the rules where they are isn't an option.   I still believe that change of view is due to a knee jerk reaction and that what is needed is proper, informed debate so we can get it right. There are a number of people in Oz about to jump ship to moths and I see it happening in the USA. Complacency because of the success of the last few years isn't an option.

 

As an aside, I also disagree with Clean that sailing a Moth needs to be more acrobatic than a foiling A. Having sailed Moths for a few years and also tried foilers that you trapeze (RS600), plus having watched Nathan and Glenn, foiling an A is a lot more acrobatic. If you watch the interview with Nathan, he even comments on it being tough to stay on the side when trapezing and foiling. There is very little doubt that under the current rules, a foiling A is tougher to sail than a Moth



#285 Scarecrow

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:36 PM



#286 frozenhawaiian

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:41 PM

 

watching these boats careening on and off the foils really makes you appreciate how hard it must be to keep the AC-72's up on the foils and in control, electronic assist systems or not. 



#287 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:06 PM

Fantastic video but almost no foiling-seems impossible to foil steadily in these conditions compared with  foiling in lighter conditions the last two days. An incredible 100% clear jump-boat completely clear of the water-3:06 in!

In these conditions it looks like Simon is right-for now-almost zero heave stability. But in the wind range of the last couple of days foiling seemed excellent for the most part.



#288 Chris O

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:22 AM

So, it's really simple....

 

Force the foiler guys to leave the class. Let the guys with functional, non-foiling, boats stay and the foilers can start their own Class. Let's call it the "I like to spend lots of money and still never have a competitive A-Foiler Class" and they can have their own regattas. If the standard A-Cat people want to switch over to the cash printing machine class, they can... and all the rest get to have sane, manageable campaigning costs.

 

Everybody is happy and foiling can become anything it wants to be ever after. No harm, no foul and let the most functional sailing program emerge with the biggest number of members. Instead of bickering, you have harmony and selective appreciation.



#289 Phil S

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:59 AM

Comparisons with the moth decision 10 years ago are unfair to the ACat fleet. The moth class was close to oblivion, with numbers struggling world wide. It needed change and although there was resistace, obviously the right desision was made.
The ACat fleet is healthy and change may not necessarilly be as benefitial. I know that the no change vote appears to back up stability but it seems to make things more uncertain. If the 750mm rule was intended to prevent foiling, it has obviously failed. If the class still wishes to prevent foiling the rule needs some amendment or additions. If on the other hand the class wishes to endorse foiling, it should be relaxing the rule, and while they are at it allow wand or other controls to make it much simpler, easier and safer.
I have not owned an A since the 1980s, but have strong links to the class and want to see it prosper. I hope the ACat sailors get a choice and choose which direction they want to go and then adopt appropriate rules to ensure its most easilly adoped. Doing nothing just does not seem to help.

#290 fwoark

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 02:22 AM

Well said Phil.

#291 pulsarAcat

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 05:42 AM

https://www.youtube....4rchn_AWjc#t=16

0:42.... zero control ! imagine an other boat ariving on port with the same speed....and the same contol...

"foiling is very safe" (read DNA blog) !! is this safe ??



#292 r.finn

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 06:38 AM

As a non A cat sailor, it's comically silly looking. I hope you guys sort out the grey area.

#293 Rohanoz

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:02 AM

As, it seems, the ETNZ team were going to foil in the regatta regardless, why didn't they do the logical thing and move the rig, beams and foils around to actually make a boat that would fly in a balanced way?
Surely 4ft between the rudder and foils is too small for stability flying on a 18ft platform with a 28ft mast?
Half pregnant comes to mind.

#294 Sonofabitch

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:12 AM

No time rohanoz. What we see is that foiling is viable and will win races in the right hands. We are a long way short of optimum

#295 Kiwi A Class

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:21 AM

I had a good look at the etnz boards today. They are a copy of the dna j boards buit in house.

#296 Titan

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 09:33 AM

I had a good look at the etnz boards today. They are a copy of the dna j boards buit in house.

Subtle changes in the profile & significant changes in the internal structure will not be apparent to to the naked eye



#297 Kiwi A Class

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 10:06 AM

I had an a class designer with me. He also picked up the difference. Main thing was the laminate directioncc compared to the other dna boards. Also a lot softer in the curve to the tip. More flexible.

#298 SimonN

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 10:56 AM

Rohanz

 

Moving the rig and foils won't do very much to stabilise flight. What you need is some self regulating system to take most of the hard work of heave control away from the sailor, like on a Moth or the foil system seen on the Flying Phantom/Groupama C Class. It doesn't matter where the boards are, too much lift is still too much lift. While I am sure we will see some fine tuning of the position of the rig and foils, there is far less scope to play than some might think. You need to keep the relationship between the centre of effort of the rig and the centre of lateral resistance (hulls and foils). To date, everybody who has changed those significantly, usually moving the foils forward, have ended up with a bitch of a boat to steer and tack. Then there is a limit on how far forward you can have the rig, because of the pressure it puts on driving the bows down. I think there is a chance we will see everything move forward a little, but I doubt it will be any further forward than what was the norm 10 years ago, before rigs were moved back 120-150mm.

 

Of course, that is all "conventional wisdom" and somebody might come along with something totally new, but I won't be holding my breath.



#299 fireball

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:23 AM

I had an a class designer with me. He also picked up the difference. Main thing was the laminate directioncc compared to the other dna boards. Also a lot softer in the curve to the tip. More flexible.


More flexible means they flex further in past the 750mm limit under load. This gives more horizontal span and hence more lift to fly the boat. Expect to see more of this in the future.

This is becoming farcical. Design is more about working around rule 8.1 than anything else.

#300 sosoomii

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 11:41 AM

A few slightly random thoughts:

 

  1.  As a class, you want to be very careful that the ETNZ guys don’t muscle their way in, screw things up and then bugger off again three years later.  Ashby may have the long term interest of the class at heart, but as a bunch of pro’s they have self-vested interests.
  2. The longitudinal position of the mast does not affect the bow down moment due to sail drive.  The weight of the rig is further forward, so that pushes the nose down a bit, but the rig pressure moment is unchanged.
  3. Might a blade jib help?  You could use a shorter mast and would generate more drive.  You’d lose some height, but that may be a trade off worth making if it gets you foiling.






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