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2014 Moth UK & World Championships (July 16 to 25th)

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#1 RJ1

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 02:32 AM

So Hawaii is over and now we look forward to the 2014 Moth World and UK Nationals which are on in a little under 6 months. The entry list is already at 82!

 

Event website here: http://www.mothworlds.org/hayling/

 

Any early bets?



#2 Jethrow

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:07 AM

I'll lay down some money on more entries rolling in. :P



#3 couchsurfer

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:44 AM

.

...........I'll put one down for the biggest moth fleet -ever- :rolleyes:

 

 

.....''As of this evening, entries have now gone past the 70 mark. In accordance with the Notice of Race, the fee will rise once we pass 100 boats. Don’t delay!''..........that's a smart way to get entries and fund$ flowing early ;)



#4 Phil S

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 05:57 AM

As usual the weather will be unlike anything they have had before.

#5 RJ1

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:23 AM

As usual the weather will be unlike anything they have had before.

 

Yeah I'm tipping it'll be like Rob Gough's home waters



#6 dogwatch

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 06:24 AM

^

There is no such thing as weather unlike anything Hayling Island has had before. Freeze, heat-wave, tornado, hurricane, calm, storm, it's had them all. OK, I'd be surprised if a typhoon appeared.

#7 RobG

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 12:39 PM


There is no such thing as weather unlike anything Hayling Island has had before. Freeze, heat-wave, tornado, hurricane, calm, storm, it's had them all. OK, I'd be surprised if a typhoon appeared.

 

Yes, since typhoons occur in the western Pacific Ocean. If such a storm appeared at Hayling, it would be a hurricane.

 

As for picking a winner, better to wait as there are a few big names yet to enter. 



#8 freamo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 01:52 PM

Whoa whoa whoa.  lets keep this weather chat in hand!

 

Seeing as I'm a dinghy sailor and therefore, of course, a weather expert (despite having no discernable qualifications of any sort) I am using this fact, together with the fact that it's at my home club, to personally GAURANTEE* the following weather stats:

 

There is a 49.5% chance it will be lighter winds than the mean wind strength for that time of year

There is a 49.5% chance it will be windier than the mean wind strength for that time of year

There is chance that it will be the same wind as the mean wind strength for that time of year for every second of the entire world championships...but that chance is not very big, almost as small as the chance of me winning.

 

So, based on those facts, hopefully no one else will enter.  that way I might have a chance of making the top 100.

 

 

*not a gaurantee



#9 dogwatch

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:30 PM

Yes, since typhoons occur in the western Pacific Ocean. If such a storm appeared at Hayling, it would be a hurricane.

But have you considered the possibility that a tornado might first pick up Hayling and drop it in the Pacific?

P.S. Thanks, however I know what "typhoon" means.

#10 Major Tom

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:37 PM

It could be interesting getting back to the club over the sandbar on an outgoing tide with a nice 20 knot sea breeze, fun on my Laser, but wouldn't want to do it on my Moth!

#11 RobG

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:13 PM

Yes, since typhoons occur in the western Pacific Ocean. If such a storm appeared at Hayling, it would be a hurricane.

But have you considered the possibility that a tornado might first pick up Hayling and drop it in the Pacific?

 I'm sure the Hayling–ites would love to be transported from dear old Blighty to a tropical location. :-)

 

GIven Scott's handling of the Yeppoon slop, he'll go pretty well if it gets messy. But so will a few others…



#12 dogwatch

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:47 AM

It could be interesting getting back to the club over the sandbar on an outgoing tide with a nice 20 knot sea breeze, fun on my Laser, but wouldn't want to do it on my Moth!

Normally the club tries to schedule racing to avoid that necessity. It can mean however that if you are out, you are out until the race officer intends you to come in.

Sea breeze doesn't really kick up the waves that can appear in the entrance. It takes more southerly to do that, when in the right conditions it gets very interesting for a couple of hundred yards. Unless by "sandbar" you mean the Winner, in which case the simple answer is to avoid it.

#13 aus2479

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 11:20 AM

So expect waves if you are to enter for hayling island? What sort of waves?

#14 dogwatch

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 05:39 PM

^

The club is just inside Chichester Harbour. On mid-ebb in a strong southerly, you get large steep waves in the channel for about 200 yards, near the harbour entrance. This isn't part of the racing area but it is on the way to/from. These aren't common conditions, especially not in summer but they can happen. Race officers will normally aim to schedule racing so competitors aren't sailing home against mid-ebb if those conditions apply.

Racing is likely to be in Hayling Bay where waves are generally small/medium and wind-blown chop rather than swell, especially in summer.

#15 RJ1

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 04:26 AM

Promo video up (a week ago) https://www.youtube....h?v=Stf9X1H8WaY



#16 Phil S

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 02:06 AM

130 entries, two weeks to go, stilll no Bora?



#17 SimonN

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 02:12 AM

130 entries, two weeks to go, stilll no Bora?

Bora posted on f/b about 2 hours ago that he isn't going to be there. 



#18 couchsurfer

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 04:36 AM


130 entries, two weeks to go, stilll no Bora?

Bora posted on f/b about 2 hours ago that he isn't going to be there. 

.

........Bora too bu$y now,,,he's sending his brother....

 

Attached File  Bora too busy.jpg   44.26K   35 downloadsAttached File  Bora too busy.jpg   44.26K   35 downloads



#19 aus2479

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 07:08 AM

Another all aussie podium to be expected?  Who else is going fast?  Are the Kouton or burling expected to be last minute entries?



#20 RJ1

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 07:09 AM

Good write up here: http://www.yachtsand...288381481237582



#21 17mika

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 12:45 PM

Another all aussie podium to be expected?  Who else is going fast?  Are the Kouton or burling expected to be last minute entries?

 

Kouton is in Garda whis/next week, so I guess he may be there...

 

 

My totally uneducated guess  :D is that the title will stay in UK, on an Exocet (I'd say Rob Greenhalgh).. does anyone else want to pick up a personal favorite?



#22 RJ1

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 11:46 PM

My guess:

1st Nathan Outtridge AUS

2nd Scott Babbage AUS

3rd Josh McKnight AUS

4th Rob Gough AUS

5th Andrew McDougall AUS



#23 Phil S

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 01:20 AM

My guess:

1st Nathan Outtridge AUS

2nd Scott Babbage AUS

3rd Josh McKnight AUS

4th Rob Gough AUS

5th Andrew McDougall AUS

Provocative, but in reality, on local waters, there might be a couple of poms in there too. Exocet foils have been good in the light and Macita foils have been fast up range. The AUS boats are mostly Mach 2 gear. Weather dependant, and no one is prepared to predict the UK weather. Looking forward to seeing everyone again.



#24 dogwatch

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 05:43 AM

I don't think "local waters" makes a lot of difference in Hayling Bay. The tide and sea breeze behaviour are all well-documented for anyone who takes the trouble to find out, which doubtless all the top guys will be doing.

#25 freamo

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 12:40 PM

will be interesting to see good aussies on the new mach 2 verticals and how they go against the exocets.  Only Goodie has the new verts in the UK and he's only used them in 2 races at one very marginal event so we couldn't really see what they could do.  one suspects that the exocets may not be quite as dominant as they are normally, laregley because all the people with exocets are the best UK sailors barring one or two exceptions. 

 

obviously Ben Paton is favourite though.  that's a completely non-scientific and 100% unproven fact



#26 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 01:02 PM

Another all aussie podium to be expected?  Who else is going fast?  Are the Kouton or burling expected to be last minute entries?

 

Kouton is in Garda whis/next week, so I guess he may be there...

 

 

My totally uneducated guess   :D is that the title will stay in UK, on an Exocet (I'd say Rob Greenhalgh).. does anyone else want to pick up a personal favorite?

In order for the title to 'stay' in the UK, it would have to currently reside there.  But it lives in Detroit, or maybe Cagliari these days.   Light air = Rashley, Babbage.  medium-heavy = outerridge, greenhalgh.  



#27 17mika

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 01:46 PM

 

Another all aussie podium to be expected?  Who else is going fast?  Are the Kouton or burling expected to be last minute entries?

 

Kouton is in Garda whis/next week, so I guess he may be there...

 

 

My totally uneducated guess   :D is that the title will stay in UK, on an Exocet (I'd say Rob Greenhalgh).. does anyone else want to pick up a personal favorite?

In order for the title to 'stay' in the UK, it would have to currently reside there.  But it lives in Detroit, or maybe Cagliari these days.   Light air = Rashley, Babbage.  medium-heavy = outerridge, greenhalgh.  

 

Ahah.. correct! I meant of course for it to go to a local sailor :)

 

I am very curious as well to see the performance of mach2 new verticals. What about sails? in Europe people this year seem to go to north h13/14 or Lennon sails, but I'm guessing guys from below will be running mostly the latest msl16, right?

I'm getting a new boat in a month and I still don't have a sail and a boom.. that's why I'm pretty interested in all the latest kit :D.



#28 skiffman

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 02:03 PM

Unless the aussies have made some big leaps in speed since last year I think it will be a mixed top 10 of Brits and Aussies. 

 

I would not write off Mike lennon if its light, he has one the last 2 opens in the UK...

 

BenPatonRacing.com is the favourite, I imagine even right now he is mentally rehearsing going down the last run to win the worlds.........



#29 17mika

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 08:32 PM

In the meantime, in day one of the Italian championship in Garda (foiling week), Josh McKnight and Kotoun in front. A couple of Brits also there

 

http://www.foilingwe...ailors/results/

 

As usual, awesome photos by Martina Orsini https://www.flickr.c...otos/imca-italy

 

new foredeck and boom from Amac

https://www.flickr.c...ly/14391274359/



#30 teknologika

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 11:58 PM

I think it's the same foredeck, it looks like he has just added a faring, but I could be wrong. FYI Rob Gough did that back in belmont.

 

The kinked boom looks good, really tidies up the mainsail foot, but makes the bottom of the pocket look a lot worse.



#31 RJ1

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 04:11 AM

It's just a fairing. The kinked boom is a new one though.

 

Love this shot from Day 3 of the Italy nationals. Well done Josh

 

Caption contest?

 

14608844613_60d0285621_b.jpg



#32 17mika

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 06:36 AM

Caption contest?

 

For Mel Brooks fans only:

 

There, wolf.

There foil!



#33 High Flow

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 06:49 AM

no aussies on the podium

#34 couchsurfer

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:00 AM

no aussies on the podium

.

....surely you jest! :mellow: .......   http://www.foilingwe...ailors/results/

 

 

......interestingly there's 3 per country for GB,,Aus---all in top 10

points per places would make it a tie between countries if that meant anything



#35 freamo

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 05:18 PM

Ben Paton did the whole event like that, his sole means of propulsion was swimming.  He was still annoyed not to win.

 

Little known fact:  Ben Paton taught The Zohan how to swim.



#36 BrianM

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 05:56 PM

Love this shot from Day 3 of the Italy nationals. Well done Josh
 
Caption contest?

The hell with a caption, I'm still trying to figure out how they got there. Apparently without breaking anything, either. ???

#37 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:03 PM

http://sailinganarch...a-few-good-men/



#38 European Bloke

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 01:32 PM

Jesus.  Linking to the page that doesn't really exist.  That's fucking low.



#39 Major Tom

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:44 PM

http://sailinganarch...a-few-good-men/


Brilliant, from the mouth of one of the worlds best Moth sailors and most definitely the funniest Moth sailor on the planet!

#40 barney

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:44 AM

The rocket w/ solid wings is pretty cool:

10509710_10152147106897751_2198315076595

 

281921_10152148839777751_864381683331827

 

source

 

Also the results of the first day of the UK nationals are available here.



#41 couchsurfer

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:01 PM

.

...^^....holy BATFOILER!!

 

 

.....do you have a car like that too??  :o



#42 RobG

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 03:58 AM

Congratulations Mike Lennon in the less–than–optimal conditions.

 

Everyone set for the Worlds? Will there be breeze? Seems the Poms have the light stuff sorted better than the rest.



#43 dogwatch

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:57 AM

Forecast is moderate for the 1st three days, light by Tuesday. Currently in cliched UK summer weather pattern "three fine days then a thunderstorm".

#44 RobG

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 02:44 AM

Nationals video: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rdJrQjfycbw



#45 couchsurfer

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:22 AM

.
....it's noon in UK,,,and the biggest -ever- moth fleet is AWAY!......almost!
 
....some delay for winds,,,and there's some mighty strong currents from the sound of it,,,but ~140 boats are rigged and ready.
 
 
 
...is the BATfoiler one of them?....how's the weight on those solid wings?

#46 Supa_saila

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:32 AM

.
....it's noon in UK,,,and the biggest -ever- moth fleet is AWAY!......almost!
 
....some delay for winds,,,and there's some mighty strong currents from the sound of it,,,but ~140 boats are rigged and ready.
 
 
 
...is the BATfoiler one of them?....how's the weight on those solid wings?

 

Probably at least 15-20kg if built strong enough to actually handle a capsize or two. Maybe more to make it disassemble-able.



#47 couchsurfer

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:38 AM

 
...is the BATfoiler one of them?....how's the weight on those solid wings?

 

Probably at least 15-20kg if built strong enough to actually handle a capsize or two.

.

..umm,,,what's the norm for these?



#48 Supa_saila

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:07 PM

 

 
...is the BATfoiler one of them?....how's the weight on those solid wings?

 

Probably at least 15-20kg if built strong enough to actually handle a capsize or two.

.

..umm,,,what's the norm for these?

 

That weight was for a wing, done by a home builder I mean. Most Mach2's are in the mid-high 30kg range ready to sail; a 40mm mast is a bit over 2kg, boom about 1.5kg, sail something like 4-5kgs. Then rigging, prodder etc. - so maybe 10kg max for a conventional rig.

 

The primary question is whether less drag trumps less weight, and the secondary question is 'how good are you at designing wings' to compete with the sailing range that a conventional rig can deal with. Designing a wing for a wide wind and angle range is really difficult.

 

Actually, the VERY first question is, 'can you design a wing that fits within the class rules'.

 



#49 couchsurfer

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:13 PM

 

 

 
...is the BATfoiler one of them?....how's the weight on those solid wings?

 

Probably at least 15-20kg if built strong enough to actually handle a capsize or two.

.

..umm,,,what's the norm for these?

 

That weight was for a wing, done by a home builder I mean. Most Mach2's are in the mid 30kg range ready to sail; a 40mm mast is a bit over 2kg, boom about 1.5kg, sail something like 4-5kgs. Then rigging, prodder etc.

 

The primary question is whether less drag trumps less weight, and the secondary question is 'how good are you at designing foil shapes' to compete with the sailing range that a conventional rig can deal with. Designing a wing for a wide wind and angle range is really difficult. 

.

...looks damn -sexy- at least

 

...found a webcam on the outside...seems enough breeze ,,haven't figured if it might have a mothview

 http://www.intheelem...-island-webcam/



#50 Presuming Ed

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:43 PM

Chimet is the nearest anemometer.

http://www.chimet.co.uk/

#51 couchsurfer

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:01 PM

.

...ummm...here's the best I can get for info feed so far  :mellow: ........  http://www.hisc.co.u...th-worlds-2014/

 

Latest News

World Championships - Day 1

Due to the poor early morning weather conditions, the first races for the Moth Worlds on Saturday were delayed to 13:00 hrs. 

Yellow and Blue flights released to go afloat at 12:00 hrs

First races underway at 13:15 in 13 knots of breeze

Fleet returning to shore (16:15) with just three races completed between the two flights, 69 boats in each flight.



#52 Phil S

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:16 PM

Delay was more due to tide. Scheduled start was1.00. Committee set Blue and yellow courses overalpped so blue had to wait 45mins till yellow finished before getting started. Then Blue fleet got one race in fading wind, Yellow fleet got two. Sent home at 4.30 due to change of tide. Weid place, bad day on the water, not all due to weather. Too much waiting around. Hope tomorrow goes better.



#53 couchsurfer

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:20 PM

.

..thanks Phil...is there any newsfeed or twitter anywhere?? 

.........in case something -does- happen

 

 

 

.......it sounds like those overlapping courses with ~140 moths -could- have added an interesting element to spectator appeal...a  major photo op,,,and -many- insurance claims missed!!  :mellow:



#54 couchsurfer

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 03:07 PM

...news from th'front---I hope the wind picked up a bit :huh: ...

 

World Championships - Day 2

Blue fleet from Saturday are playing catch-up with their second flight race. When that is completed (first attempt has been abandoned) the rest of the Moths will be released to do Sunday's race schedule.

Wind is very light in the Bay, 5 knots from the North.

Blue flight completed their race from yesterday, winner Josh McKnight of Australia, second Scott Babbage AUS and third Ben Paton GBR. See race results

Today's yellow flight race underway . . .



#55 Phil S

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:36 PM

Second day much like the first. Yesterday's blue fleet went out at 10 to do one race to catch up, but it did not complete till 11.30 so we then split to new fleets and struggled until 4pm.

 

This time the new blue fleet got two but the yellow got only one. Very long day. Its now 6 and there are stilll boats strugling to get back into the harbour. We had a couple of starts where almost no one foiled so they abandonned, not good for the leaders, Gough in one and Rashley in the other. Not good for me as I was leading the lowrider majority.

 

What a place its about 2 km to the course through a channel which flows at about 5kts, so races have to be timed so we can get in and out of the channel with the current. As well when the wind blows on shore and the tide runs out, there are huge waves which have to be sailed through, this happened before the regatta but its been too light so for. But who knows what will happen later in the week. We are spoil in Aust with great sailing venues. Tides, mud, gravel beaches, shallows and no wind, that UK.

 

No idea who is leading but we now have another set of qualifying races tomorrow. Today's tellow go out ealy to catch up. At least there is more wind forecast.



#56 couchsurfer

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:22 PM

....thanks for the innerview...sounds pretty gritty for a worlds,,,don't let it get you down--you know the brits are playing with you!

 

,,,are those waves the reason for some development of longer blades?



#57 SimonN

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:59 PM

 Tides, mud, gravel beaches, shallows and no wind, that UK.

Bit of a generalisation, Phil. The last Moth worlds in the UK had too much wind.

 

Any venue with not enough wind is not good. Hayling with wind is a glam venue which is why so many world and euro championships are held there and why it usually gets big turnouts. It is also why it is one of the biggest clubs in the UK.

 

Sounds as if it is suffering from the usual championship "it isn't usually like this here" syndrome!



#58 RobG

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 03:53 AM

Sounds as if it is suffering from the usual championship "it isn't usually like this here" syndrome!

 

I think he's suffering from the 6–hours–on–the–water–in–a–small–unstable–boat–but–only–got–one–race syndrome. Especially virilent when it happens a few days in a row.



#59 dogwatch

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:50 AM

Tides, mud, gravel beaches, shallows and no wind, that UK.

My God, Aussies are certainly world champions at whinging.

UK, being in the firing line for Atlantic weather systems, is, on average, one of the world's windier sailing venues. It hasn't so far been a very windy summer but there's some breeze this morning.

5 knots in the channel, not vaguely close at neaps which as what you are experiencing. The club fixed start line goes across the channel. Do you think the club could do that if the tide ran at 5 knots?

Huge waves in the channel. Yes they can be very impressive for a couple of hundred metres, in 20knots+ southerly, on a strong ebb. I've sailing through there 100+ times, I've experienced big standing waves exactly once and that was because I decided to head home early. If I'd been returning when the race officer planned, no waves. HISC will plan the event so you don't see those conditions except, possibly, people wanting to sail home while racing is still going on. It's right that the safety officer covered the point but most if not all competitors will never see those conditions.

If you've found mud, you were seriously lost. HISC is on sand and gravel. The peninsula is called "Sandy Point" for a reason.

Shallows. Yes, there are shallows. Not in the race area but on the way there, if you ignore the safety briefing. I'd avoid them and go where the locals tell you if I were you. Every year a few visitors think they know better, every year someone capsizes and breaks a mast bouncing on the bottom.

Enjoy the rest of your week.

#60 DaveT

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:09 AM

Same conditions for everyone, stop whinging and get your head back in the boat.

 

From the Y&Y report sounds like there has been some good racing so far and surely some varied conditions are good for the class and development in general?



#61 17mika

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:12 AM

,,,are those waves the reason for some development of longer blades?

 

No personal experience, but Amac at the foiling week said that the rudder is longer because at high speed the boat is now carried very bow down.



#62 couchsurfer

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 03:13 PM

thanks Y&Y...good to get a few more words of coverage!

http://www.yachtsand...th-Worlds-day-2

 

By Mark Jardine on 20 Jul19-25 July 2014

 
yandy113029.jpg


#63 Mark Jardine

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 03:23 PM

Full results after the qualifying series now online at http://www.yachtsand...-Worlds-results



#64 Phil S

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:16 PM

Only 4hours today for one early race in quite good foiling conditions. We had another 3 or 4 yellow fleet starts abandonned due to fading wind. Long slow sail home. Even longer for the Blue fleet who were further out to sea. Qualifiers over, results on the web site. I had a couple of reasonably good races but with my early results from yesterday I am well into the blue fleet for the finals.

 

The RC is using the 2003 class championship guidlines (pre universal foiling) which has a min wind strenth of 6kts,  as this is about the wind needed for class pres, Scott Babbage to take off, the cynics recon they only have to watch Scott and abandon the race if he drops off the foils.

 

Last night at the AGM we decided the wing bouncing technique for take off was a too obvious a blatant violation of rule 42 and several of us decided a few protests would clean it up. Quite a few people headed the warning and reformed their act and were amazingly well back in the fleet from where they were yesterday.

 

Finals tomorrow, no lay day as we are behind schedule. Wind forecast is for yet another direction and probably not much strength. We are at least geting used to it.

 

If our myopic english friend has not seen mud at hayling he has not looked inland at low tide. If he wants to see an idyloc sailing venue he should come to the Sorrento Moth Worlds next January. Better winds not guarenteed but much more likely.



#65 couchsurfer

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:32 PM

.

...tough series.....what's the threshold weight between the foilers,non-foilers in these winds,,,,,,,now that the pumping issue's been addressed?



#66 Mark Jardine

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:32 PM

I’ve just finished the day 3 report together with Tom Gruitt photos, Beau Outteridge sailor profile video of Nathan Outteridge and Louay Habib interview with Paul Goodison – read all about it at http://www.yachtsand...th-Worlds-day-3



#67 couchsurfer

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:03 PM

I’ve just finished the day 3 report together with Tom Gruitt photos, Beau Outteridge sailor profile video of Nathan Outteridge and Louay Habib interview with Paul Goodison – read all about it at http://www.yachtsand...th-Worlds-day-3

.

...great coverage..goodOnya!....any link to the twitterfeed?

 

...does the lead fleet carry points forward or start again??



#68 SimonN

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:59 PM

If our myopic english friend has not seen mud at hayling he has not looked inland at low tide. If he wants to see an idyloc sailing venue he should come to the Sorrento Moth Worlds next January. Better winds not guarenteed but much more likely.

I can certainly confirm that within the harbour, where you are not sailing, there are some great big mud banks at low tide, particularly off Thorney island. I have hit them at great speed on too many occasions, once even sticking my 49er bowsprit into the mud so hard that the boat was left standing on its nose.



#69 sosoomii

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:46 PM

Good Lord. If sailing at HISC at the height of summer is too hard or unpleasant then those Moths must be even more awkward and fussy to sail than I imagined. They are amazing looking craft and I have enjoyed watching you all this week whilst consuming ice cream on the shingle (not mud!) beach on Hayling Island. I do so hope you don't disappear up your own backsides like windsurfers, only wanting to play when conditions are perfect. Yes, the winds have been on the light side but in every other sense it has been standard HISC, which is undoubtedly the premier salt water dinghy club in the UK and I'd imagine quite possibly has more members and more world/Olympic medal members than any other club in the world.

#70 SeaWay

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:09 AM

Now you have gone and done it Phil.

Sorrento will either be glassy calm for 2 weeks or go 110% nuclear like Belmont...

Anyone that says sailors aren't superstitious is kidding themselves.

Saw

Only 4hours today for one early race in quite good foiling conditions. We had another 3 or 4 yellow fleet starts abandonned due to fading wind. Long slow sail home. Even longer for the Blue fleet who were further out to sea. Qualifiers over, results on the web site. I had a couple of reasonably good races but with my early results from yesterday I am well into the blue fleet for the finals.
 
The RC is using the 2003 class championship guidlines (pre universal foiling) which has a min wind strenth of 6kts,  as this is about the wind needed for class pres, Scott Babbage to take off, the cynics recon they only have to watch Scott and abandon the race if he drops off the foils.
 
Last night at the AGM we decided the wing bouncing technique for take off was a too obvious a blatant violation of rule 42 and several of us decided a few protests would clean it up. Quite a few people headed the warning and reformed their act and were amazingly well back in the fleet from where they were yesterday.
 
Finals tomorrow, no lay day as we are behind schedule. Wind forecast is for yet another direction and probably not much strength. We are at least geting used to it.
 
If our myopic english friend has not seen mud at hayling he has not looked inland at low tide. If he wants to see an idyloc sailing venue he should come to the Sorrento Moth Worlds next January. Better winds not guarenteed but much more likely.



#71 RobG

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:00 AM

Now you have gone and done it Phil.

Sorrento will either be glassy calm for 2 weeks or go 110% nuclear like Belmont...
 

 

Or nuclear like Sorrento…

 

10406543_646125075483283_151062469005161

Source: Higgins Storm Chasing



#72 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:33 AM

"Further down the fleet there is some frustration about the time limits. Dave Chisholm, who is racing one of the home-build Moths said, "The problem is you've got guys with brand-new kit that are really good sailors; America's Cup sailors, Olympic sailors and World Champions, particularly in the marginal foiling conditions they're off. For the guys with the older kit who've come here for the craic of the whole thing and to support the event finishing within 15 minutes of the top guys is impossible, especially in these marginal conditions. I got lapped by the first windward mark today and I foiled most of the way. The guy with the oldest boat here has sailed in every race and he hasn't got a single result and they need to think about that. It is of course about the elite sailors that are here, but they need to think about those sailors who are further down the fleet."

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/177867/International-Moth-Worlds-results

 

 

q1. Are they not using the 'finish on the lap' you are on (i.e. when the leader finishes) rather than score a DNF/C

 

q2. will Sorrento use that 'race car' system ( i.e. finish on the lap you are on)

 

q3. what will the time limit be at Sorrento?



#73 SeaWay

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:29 AM

Valid Point!!

 

 

Now you have gone and done it Phil.

Sorrento will either be glassy calm for 2 weeks or go 110% nuclear like Belmont...
 

 

Or nuclear like Sorrento…

 

10406543_646125075483283_151062469005161

Source: Higgins Storm Chasing



#74 RJ1

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:16 AM

q1. Are they not using the 'finish on the lap' you are on (i.e. when the leader finishes) rather than score a DNF/C

 

q2. will Sorrento use that 'race car' system ( i.e. finish on the lap you are on)

 

q3. what will the time limit be at Sorrento?

 

a1: They are not using a lapped style finish system at Hayling.

 

a2: Sorrento will use the lapped style finish as confirmed in the NOR which is now online. This will mean we won't have a gate at the bottom like they are using at Hayling, just a rounding mark with maybe an offset as well.

 

a3: I'd expect the time limit to be 15 minutes, although with a lapped style finish you would get a result if you just do one lap.



#75 RJ1

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:58 AM

Good luck Phil S today! Doesn't look like much wind will come through, maybe you won't sail today?

 



#76 Phil S

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:04 AM

.

...tough series.....what's the threshold weight between the foilers,non-foilers in these winds,,,,,,,now that the pumping issue's been addressed?

Not at all, and wing bouncing has proven to be even more effective. At most starts the bouncers get up on foils and dissapear over the horizon. The leaders including all the professionals will not protest each other, and the straglers do not get much of a chance to see whos up to it in a 70 boat (half) fleet so there have been no protests. And its pretty hard to remember a string of sail numbers for 4 hours and edit out all the starts which were abandonned. The one I pinged yesterday got off with a N flag. The jury unfortunately have ben instructed to be passive. I think its bad for the class and bad for sailing.

 

We are using the lap finish system otherwise 2/3 the fleet would have majority alphabet scores.

 

The time limit here is 10 mins to first mark, and 15mins after the winner. There is no absolute limit posted. They are running twolap races over about an NM leg so its hard to make the 1st mark in time. They are also using an old 6kt class regatta limit. We might change these for Sorrento but SIs have been held back anticipating lessons from Hayling.

 

The photo is not Sorrento but Mornington 30 miles away, 90deg different orientation and in a wnter storm



#77 Phil S

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:07 AM

I have not seen any of Beau's videos because there is not enough internet here to load.



#78 masterbeam

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:43 AM

Here's where you see those profile videos of a bunch of moth sailors.

http://www.youtube.c...1FeZAbeLMonO6gH



#79 GBR7911

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:50 AM

 the winds have been on the light side but in every other sense it has been standard HISC, which is undoubtedly the premier salt water dinghy club in the UK and I'd imagine quite possibly has more members and more world/Olympic medal members than any other club in the world.

 

And a bigger ego, I would dispute its premier status try Weymouth, Mounts Bay, Lyme Regis, Pwhelli and I could go on. 



#80 couchsurfer

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:30 AM

...the bouncing issue sounds tough....have yer thought of jumping-in with the bouncers Phil--kinda like trying to sail Lasers at Kiel in the 80's!?

 

....hmmm..looking pretty light,,I guess that's why phil's still online,,and Gawd knows when the tide-window is  http://www.intheelem...-island-webcam/ ......can someone get the cafe to clean-off the camera housing?.....those bugs are a bit freeky---definitely -not- moths  :mellow:  :blink:

 

 

 

.........from the sounds of it,,,I'll bet the bigB's pretty happy he was too 'busy' to make it to Hayling



#81 Phil S

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:56 AM

The class is at a cross roads in some repects.

 

A lot of the top sailors think we should get ISAF approval to dump rule 42. They do not comply with it and think pumping and bouncing is fair game. If that happens we are openning ourselves up to new as yet un explored techniques and could end up with something as stupid as sailboard air rowing. I happen to be one of a sizable group who think that is the wrog way to go.

 

Pumping is another issue which has worried some juries in the past, even before foiling. Its hard for non mothies to understand that often repeated rapid sheet movements are about balancing a small narrow, unstable boat and hence good seamanship not pumping. So differentiating between balance pumps and foil initiation pumps is not achievanle by the observer.  Pumping has been accepted and that has lead on to wing bouncing which works much better. But wing bouncing is easilly identified and hence managble if the intent is there to enforce rule 42.

 

On the other hand its hard to set a lower wind limit which is equiable to everyone. The present 6kt allows only a few light people to take off (without bouncing) and so is unfair to most people over 75kg. If we increase that limit we may end up like the formula  sailboards who do not race until they get 12 or 15kts. 

 

I have been sailing moths long befire they were foilers and think its still a dinghy class which should race even if foiling is not possible, we are afterall just like every other small dinghy, doing much the same speed so why can we not race. Its not what most new mothies want but its more fun that sitting ashore like this morning or worse still waiting on the water like we have for the last few days. The way the weather forcast is looking there might not be any more racing this week, and that would be a disaster.

 

At the AGM the other night we decided we should try to encforce rule 42 wrt bouncing by protesting. There will be a IMCA committe review of our rule 42 observation and wind limits. I suspect that the wind limit may remain, and that bouncing will be policed but that pumpin.



#82 couchsurfer

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:23 AM

The class is at a cross roads in some repects.

 

A lot of the top sailors think we should get ISAF approval to dump rule 42. They do not comply with it and think pumping and bouncing is fair game. If that happens we are openning ourselves up to new as yet un explored techniques and could end up with something as stupid as sailboard air rowing. I happen to be one of a sizable group who think that is the wrog way to go.

  

I have been sailing moths long befire they were foilers and think its still a dinghy class which should race even if foiling is not possible, we are afterall just like every other small dinghy, doing much the same speed so why can we not race. Its not what most new mothies want but its more fun that sitting ashore like this morning or worse still waiting on the water like we have for the last few days. The way the weather forcast is looking there might not be any more racing this week, and that would be a disaster.

 

At the AGM the other night we decided we should try to encforce rule 42 wrt bouncing by protesting. There will be a IMCA committe review of our rule 42 observation and wind limits. I suspect that the wind limit may remain, and that bouncing will be policed but that pumpin.

  

... cross roads indeed,,,I hear your pain--you've seen a 'few' changes in your time sailing moths......backwater kisch to bleeding edge!!

 

...I noticed in the SI's a restriction to changing foils on the water(!) which says to me that there's no restriction to playing a quiver of foils day to day($$!!)  on shore....this must create a rather large division between the ''have's'' and the ''don't have $o much'$''.....perhaps it's time for two divisions in the fleet---the go-for-it's have a 50' support boat with a quiver of boats sitting rigged and bounce-all-yer-want ,,,,,,,,,,,,and the old schoolers,who register one set of gear,,and have 'Dick Rose' on the Jury.



#83 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:40 AM

My god, Poms are certainly world champions at defending shitty sailing conditions!

 

My God, Aussies are certainly world champions at whinging.


#84 High Flow

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 11:58 AM

nobody is defending shitty sailing conditions.

 

shitty sailing conditions are shitty. FULL STOP.

 

you can get shitty sailng conditions everywhere, even the best sailing venue

that's sailing!

of course it is really frustrating but it happens,

in the UK, in Aussie-Land, in the US and even in San Francisco.

 

so yes please if you feel like it, please whine a little, I feel with you.

but don't blame anyone other than the god who might have created you and might be responsible for the wind in that particulare region at that particular period of time.

 

that sailing's, so after a while stfu or go playing baseball or golf or chess or just something else.

 

p.s.: check my location status at the right!

 

 

 

 

My god, Poms are certainly world champions at defending shitty sailing conditions!

 

 

My God, Aussies are certainly world champions at whinging.


#85 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:33 PM

nobody is defending shitty sailing conditions.

 

shitty sailing conditions are shitty. FULL STOP.

 

you can get shitty sailng conditions everywhere, even the best sailing venue

that's sailing!

of course it is really frustrating but it happens,

in the UK, in Aussie-Land, in the US and even in San Francisco.

 

so yes please if you feel like it, please whine a little, I feel with you.

but don't blame anyone other than the god who might have created you and might be responsible for the wind in that particulare region at that particular period of time.

 

that sailing's, so after a while stfu or go playing baseball or golf or chess or just something else.

 

p.s.: check my location status at the right!

 

 

 

 

 

My god, Poms are certainly world champions at defending shitty sailing conditions!

 

 

My God, Aussies are certainly world champions at whinging.

 

Yeah I know, I'm just fucking with the 'watch.  I have been to three majors in the past two months, and at each one, it seems as though I am dragging bad air with me.  Day before racing?  15-20 knots at every one.  Day 1 of racing?  0-8 knots.  After I leave?  15-20 knots.  FML.



#86 JimC

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:30 PM

And a bigger ego, I would dispute its premier status try Weymouth, Mounts Bay, Lyme Regis, Pwhelli and I could go on.

Agreed: I think its a lousy place to race and don't go there any more, even though my family's local. The harbour is great for taking a picnic and the family and exploring creeks and stuff though.

#87 tommytank

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:31 PM

Great article on the more frugal side of the fleet.
http://www.yachtsand...e-in-the-Garage

#i'msparticus

#88 couchsurfer

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:16 PM

.

 

..complete bomb today apparently...http://www.yachtsand...th-Worlds-day-4

....a new take on a tired phrase......''As Simon H put it ,,,,"It never is normally like this here - it usually rains when there's no wind."

.........are there times that there's breeze outside,,but currents make it 'inaccessible'?? 

 

 

Ollie Holden out for a blast in the harbour on day 4 of the International Moth World Championships

yandy113199.jpg



#89 couchsurfer

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:32 PM

Great article on the more frugal side of the fleet.
http://www.yachtsand...e-in-the-Garage

#i'msparticus

.

...nice coverage of the homebuild scene,,,,but where's the BATfoiler!?

 

...sounds like there's already a subdivision in the fleet....The Home Build Cup has been organised by the Moth World Championship entrants who have built their own designs as Phillippe Oligario explains:..  but a bit of a contradiction in the interviews between...'we formed the subfleet cause 'we don't have a chance of beating them'........and ''If you put one of the top guys in my boat there is no reason why they wouldn't make top ten.''............which is it??



#90 sosoomii

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:06 PM

And a bigger ego, I would dispute its premier status try Weymouth, Mounts Bay, Lyme Regis, Pwhelli and I could go on.

Agreed: I think its a lousy place to race and don't go there any more, even though my family's local. The harbour is great for taking a picnic and the family and exploring creeks and stuff though.

Those are all great championship venues (having sailed at them all apart from Pwehelli), not least because they have the added bonus of being nice places to holiday, but as a regular club surely none touch HISC for size of club, number of champions etc. and no, I'm not a member!

I was down there again this morning and couldn't understand why there was no racing. It was a near perfect day for a pleasant sail, although you may have dropped off the foils at times. Most classes would have loved it out there today, but I hadn't appreciated that there are too many Moths there to fit in the harbour.

#91 couchsurfer

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:13 PM

 

And a bigger ego, I would dispute its premier status try Weymouth, Mounts Bay, Lyme Regis, Pwhelli and I could go on.

Agreed: I think its a lousy place to race and don't go there any more, even though my family's local. The harbour is great for taking a picnic and the family and exploring creeks and stuff though.

Those are all great championship venues (having sailed at them all apart from Pwehelli), not least because they have the added bonus of being nice places to holiday, but as a regular club surely none touch HISC for size of club, number of champions etc. and no, I'm not a member!

I was down there again this morning and couldn't understand why there was no racing. It was a near perfect day for a pleasant sail, although you may have dropped off the foils at times. Most classes would have loved it out there today, but I hadn't appreciated that there are too many Moths there to fit in the harbour.

.

...the paradox of success :mellow:  



#92 Phil S

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:51 AM

Yesterday was agood call. there looked to be sailing wind at the club but the committe sent RIBs out and there was not enough oout in the course area. Not the 6kts specified in the association guidelines anyway. A few people went for a sail in the shrinking river late in the day but spent a lot ofvtime low riding and beam reaching just to stay up. Not really racable on foils.

 

But I argue that we are still a dinghy class which happens to foil fast, does not mean that when its light and we sail no faster than big heavy boats, we should not be racing. I would be happy to see the 6kt limit lowered but I know I am in the minoriry. I would not like to see it raised as that would simply draw a line up the weight scale somewhere between those capable of foiling and those who are not. At present only the light and exceptional sailors can get foiling in 6kts without bouncing.

 

The SI about changing foils on land was voted for in Hawaii so this is the first WC with it in play. It was a move by the majority to limit the ability of the well backed minority to own a quiver of different foils for different conditions, and choose the right one at 10mins to go from their personal support boat. The class still has a lot of people self funding and without a RIB in support so its an equity levellong move. No one is complaining, even the professionals are here because they love sailing the boats, not as part of their career. There are a few support boats but not carrying foils.



#93 SimonN

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:41 AM

I actually sailed at the last Moth Worlds to be held at Hayling and it was a really great event with, if my memory isn't failing me, good breezes. In fact, i have done 5 week long events at Hayling and never lost a day's sailing.The Moths have been unlucky.

 

As for Hayling as a championship venue verses Weymouth, Mounts Bay, Lyme Regis and Pwhelli, the others have certainly got more "holiday" appeal. All of them on their day are great. But as a home club, I don't think anywhere beats Hayling, which is why so many top sailors are based there. You have the option of sailing in the bay or the harbour and it is very rare that you cannot sail. I can only remember 2 days when i turned up and there was no sailing over many years of membership. Maybe sailing in the harbour is an acquired taste, but many find it an interesting alternative to the standard type courses you usually get (the St Georges boys should relate to that!). 

 

​I feel for the boys who have traveled half way round the world for warm beer and no wind, but at least it is a lot warmer than in Sydney and you cannot say that very often.



#94 European Bloke

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:56 AM

 

 

And a bigger ego, I would dispute its premier status try Weymouth, Mounts Bay, Lyme Regis, Pwhelli and I could go on.

Agreed: I think its a lousy place to race and don't go there any more, even though my family's local. The harbour is great for taking a picnic and the family and exploring creeks and stuff though.

Those are all great championship venues (having sailed at them all apart from Pwehelli), not least because they have the added bonus of being nice places to holiday, but as a regular club surely none touch HISC for size of club, number of champions etc. and no, I'm not a member!

I was down there again this morning and couldn't understand why there was no racing. It was a near perfect day for a pleasant sail, although you may have dropped off the foils at times. Most classes would have loved it out there today, but I hadn't appreciated that there are too many Moths there to fit in the harbour.

.

...the paradox of success :mellow:  

You wouldn't run a champs, let alone a world champs in the harbour even if you only had 30 boats.  Well you might for one of the odd local keelboat fleets but i digress.



#95 Chris 249

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 11:55 AM

... cross roads indeed,,,I hear your pain--you've seen a 'few' changes in your time sailing moths......backwater kisch to bleeding edge!!

 

"Backwater kitsch"?

 

Sorry, but before foilers arrived, Moths were seen by many of the world's best dinghy designers as one of the most significant, ground-breaking and influential designs afloat. They were never a backwater and never kitsch.

 

Moths were the class that created the wings that your boat uses. They were a leader in creating lightweight boats, probably THE leader in creating flat rocker lines and immersed transoms, and THE leader in the move towards narrow hulls in skiff types. Julian Bethwaite says that they also influenced the 49er.

 

World-class designers like Bruce Farr, Faroux and Paterson did a lot of their early work in Moths, as did lesser-known designers like Shelley (who basically introduced chines to Int 14s).  The early Moths also played a significant role in popularising dinghy sailing in general in places like France and Australia.

 

Kitsch? Never. A backwater? Not on your life.

 

 


 



#96 couchsurfer

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:00 PM

.

....sorry Chris...probably should have added a..... ''  :rolleyes: '' ....got anything to add to the discussion otherwise??

 

....good t see they got some races off......  http://www.yachtsand...ds-day-5-update



#97 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:10 PM

... cross roads indeed,,,I hear your pain--you've seen a 'few' changes in your time sailing moths......backwater kisch to bleeding edge!!

 

"Backwater kitsch"?

 

Sorry, but before foilers arrived, Moths were seen by many of the world's best dinghy designers as one of the most significant, ground-breaking and influential designs afloat. They were never a backwater and never kitsch.

 

Moths were the class that created the wings that your boat uses. They were a leader in creating lightweight boats, probably THE leader in creating flat rocker lines and immersed transoms, and THE leader in the move towards narrow hulls in skiff types. Julian Bethwaite says that they also influenced the 49er.

 

World-class designers like Bruce Farr, Faroux and Paterson did a lot of their early work in Moths, as did lesser-known designers like Shelley (who basically introduced chines to Int 14s).  The early Moths also played a significant role in popularising dinghy sailing in general in places like France and Australia.

 

Kitsch? Never. A backwater? Not on your life.

 

 


 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Moths in real danger of losing their International status when the foils arrived?



#98 17mika

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:13 PM

.

....sorry Chris...probably should have added a..... ''  :rolleyes: '' ....got anything to add to the discussion otherwise??

 

....good t see they got some races off......  http://www.yachtsand...ds-day-5-update

 

I really like the look of the green Rocket (Thomas Lambert)

 

http://www.yachtsand...yandy113256.jpg

 

It is giving me some ideas about the color and graphics for the new boat...

 

 

PS I guess Mike cooke's boat is still at Aardvark HQ, waiting for some paint



#99 Chris 249

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:45 AM


 


... cross roads indeed,,,I hear your pain--you've seen a 'few' changes in your time sailing moths......backwater kisch to bleeding edge!!

 
"Backwater kitsch"?
 
Sorry, but before foilers arrived, Moths were seen by many of the world's best dinghy designers as one of the most significant, ground-breaking and influential designs afloat. They were never a backwater and never kitsch.
 
Moths were the class that created the wings that your boat uses. They were a leader in creating lightweight boats, probably THE leader in creating flat rocker lines and immersed transoms, and THE leader in the move towards narrow hulls in skiff types. Julian Bethwaite says that they also influenced the 49er.
 
World-class designers like Bruce Farr, Faroux and Paterson did a lot of their early work in Moths, as did lesser-known designers like Shelley (who basically introduced chines to Int 14s).  The early Moths also played a significant role in popularising dinghy sailing in general in places like France and Australia.
 
Kitsch? Never. A backwater? Not on your life.
 
 

 
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Moths in real danger of losing their International status when the foils arrived?
 
I don't know, but that seems to be of little (if any) relevance to the issue of whether a class is a backwater or not. The 18 Foot Skiff, Merlin Rocket, NS14, 12 Foot Skiff, Canoe etc have also been extremely influential in design, and none of them is an ISAF International class.
 
The class AGM minutes and reports indicate that the class was not at death's door before the foilers arrived, with membership increasing from "250-300" in 2001 to around 365 at the last AGM. The class IS doing better now and the world title fleet has increased enormously (more than national level racing) which is wonderful, but reports of its (pre-foil) death are greatly exaggerated.

#100 SimonN

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:09 AM


 

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't Moths in real danger of losing their International status when the foils arrived?

I am not sure whether you are saying that the class was in danger before foils or because of foils. It certainly wasn't in any danger of losing status because foils came along. However, it could have been before foils, because you need to have a certain number of countries with fleets (IIRC it's 5). However, before foils, while it was mainly the UK and Australia that sailed Moths, but there were also small fleets in Japan, France and Germany, plus anywhere else I cannot think of. I therefore suspect any perceived threat wasn't really there. 







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