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A Class Fail? The Future of the A's


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#1 SimonN

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 01:44 PM

Rather than continuing to dilute the Worlds thread, I thought it might be useful to move the discussion. This is how I see it to date.

 

Despite a majority of the class wanting to change the rules about foils, the vote fell short of the requisite 2/3rds majority for the proposals to move forward. Some seem to be fine with the status quo, while others, including me, feel that the class has boxed itself into a rather nasty corner and that there is a real problem with where we are.

 

I personally believe the problem we have was caused by the fact that when countries decided how they were going to vote, nobody had  a clue as to what was really going on with foiling. First, nobody had seen the extended foiling that has been observed at this Worlds. Second, nobody had seen the hobby horsing behaviour we have seen exhibited by all the leading boats on foils. Finally, nobody realised what the "Landy Solution" would look like. I believe if we had known that, we would have seen different results and also different proposals. Why? Because at the time of voting, people were holding onto a false assumption, sold to the class by the technical committee when the foil rules were introduced. I am not in any way suggesting that we were deliberately told things that were incorrect, but the vote was passed on the basis of the following comment.

 

I believe that the rule of 1.5m and state of knowledge of foils makes it unlikely for a fully foiling boat to win races, a fluke to win a regatta

That quote, from a member of the tec committee is the reason the rules were passed in the first place. If people had known then that it would not prevent foilers, the rule would never have been passed. Worse, if people had known it was going to lead to boats that leap out of the water and need superstar qualities to sail properly, again, I don't see the rules would have been passed.

 

So we have seen 2 votes made without the voters having the full facts. Just because we have voted once, doesn't mean we shouldn't vote again, with decent proposals and a better understanding of our situation. Unlike with governments, we don't have to wait to correct a bad vote.

 

For me, the most relevant comments to our current situation were made by in the report on the foil rules it stated

 

The spirit of the A Class has been to develop. This freedom of development is what has made the boats so great. We have to maintain this 'spirit of the class' so that in 20 years time the A Class is still the greatest multihull class in the world. Our future relies on staying at the leading edge of technology. If we fall behind the class slowly fade away, while other classes move forward and prosper

 

That is what people believed they were voting for, but our rules now mean we are no longer anywhere near the leading edge, and, more importantly, we now have boats that have very undesirable characteristics.

 

Some say, through blind faith and zero evidence, that we should wait and see, hoping that somebody will come up with a solution to stable flight, despite the fact that there is no current solution that fits our rules. I do not believe that we can leave this to chance but that we need to ensure that the A's have good sailing characteristics and are at the leading edge of development. With the right rules, we could have foiling A's that are a pleasure to sail and which don't break the bank (with the wrong rules, we can foil and break the bank!!). On the other hand, if the class doesn't want foiling, which is now a reality, the rules need to be tightened. The worst thing we can do is nothing. I believe it will kill the class.

 

To date, I haven't heard one argument in favour of leaving the rules where they are, other than because of the recent vote, a vote that received a majority despite the lack of information and the poor quality of the proposals. I haven't heard one person say that they think that the out of control, leaping out of the water foilers that we seen on the videos is what we want for the class. Some might say let's "wait and see", but if somebody does come up with some idea nobody has thought of before, it will almost certainly be something compromised because of the limitations of our rules. Moreover, how long do we wait before acting.

 

Act now and we can put in place rules that will allow the A to become the best foiler around. Yes, I do mean the best because if we get it right, it will be almost as fast (maybe even faster) than a moth and a lot easier to sail. It will put the A's back on top of the sailing world. A friend from an AC team said to me this week that his team will keep being interested in A's so long as they maintain their relevance. I believe the same applies for most others. I believe the time is right to act and ensure the A's remain the best multihull fleet .

 

Discuss.... :)

 

 

 



#2 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 01:51 PM

Simon, would it be legal to adjust the angle of incidence of the main foils using a twist grip on the extention tiller?
Perhaps a "split" system where the port extension tiller controls only the stb main foil and the stb tiller twist grip controls only the port main foil. Or control both simultaneously if the guys that have actually foiled the boats think that is better?

#3 BalticBandit

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 01:55 PM

Doug you have no clue as to the loads involved or how feasible it is to twist grip stuff while you are being hobby horsed.  You don't sail these boats.  You don't sail anything meaningful in fact.  You are a waste of oxygen in this thread.  Now Fuck Orr



#4 couchsurfer

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 04:49 PM

Despite a majority of the class wanting to change the rules about foils, the vote fell short of the requisite 2/3rds majority

.

..it's either one or the other...if the 'majority' wanted it,,,then the majority would vote that way.

....wouldn't everyone's interests be served best to form 2 classes from this duality?

................believe-it-or-not,,,not everyone wants to foil,I'm sure!

 

 

Doug you have no clue as to the loads involved or how feasible it is to twist grip stuff while you are being hobby horsed.  You don't sail these boats.  You don't sail anything meaningful in fact.  You are a waste of oxygen in this thread.  Now Fuck Orr

 

...it's not like I'm a doug-fan.........................but -again-,,,,,,really?? <_<



#5 pitchpoledave

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:03 PM

I think you are right.. innovate or someone else will.

 

Foiling is a huge leap and it takes some time for a change in thinking to occur. A big problem in sailing as I see it is too much momentum to keep going in the same direction. People got comfortable with the way things are and are out of their comfort zone. And of course cost is an issue.. but this is a development class and if you have bought into the class then you bought into the costs.



#6 david r

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:09 PM

Why are people using the plural when referring to day 3 video(s)?  The one vid that is everywhere is made of a series of 1-3 second clips mostly, and it is really hard to get a feel of how the boats are actually sailing or flying.  Drawing serious conclusions from that video would be risky.  It seems weird to me that one 4.5 minute vid from Argentina is all we are seeing from day 3.  The report was that there were very strong gusts that day and they were near the wind max.

  For a 150 pound guy, A's have too tall of a mast for force 6 and above, not to mention that the hull shape isn't great for rough seas.  So in force 5 they are already having trouble in the depths of the fleet even without this hydro foiling- sans heave stability.

A fine solution will be arrived at in time.  Odds are that the random cat foiler that appears at various races around the world this year will need to be assessed before large numbers flock there.

Also what would the point of a super expensive full foiling  A be if say a 15', lighter, cheaper, faster full foiler becomes popular?

 

Since it is the 21st century, it seems to me laser beams, a micro processor, and  levers to flaps would be the cleanest solution to heave stability.



#7 couchsurfer

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:11 PM

I think you are right.. innovate or someone else will.

 

Foiling is a huge leap and it takes some time for a change in thinking to occur. A big problem in sailing as I see it is too much momentum to keep going in the same direction. People got comfortable with the way things are and are out of their comfort zone. And of course cost is an issue.. but this is a development class and if you have bought into the class then you bought into the costs.

.

 

...as I've seen the A's there's a lot of the class that might just want to not cross the line into foils,,no?

....there's nothing wrong with 2 divisions



#8 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

I think the key is to develop a simple, robust control system within the current rules-like the twist grip I mentioned earlier(if it was legal?).

#9 Chris O

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:32 PM

...as I've seen the A's there's a lot of the class that might just want to not cross the line into foils,,no?

 

....there's nothing wrong with 2 divisions

 

 

Precisely. End the haggle and get on with it.

 

Over time, we'll all see how foiling shakes-out for the small craft industry and then the foilistas can come crawling back when another technology supplants this evolutionary sidebar.... ;-)

 

One, or two, name guys go through the cheese slicer that is the rigging and suddenly high speeds and techno foiling won't be that much of a rush anymore. Insurance, sponsors and reluctant participants will see to that. Even NASCAR, which is the Neanderthal of auto racing, had to install restrictor plates because of the safety concerns on extremely high speed tracks.

 

Throw all the rocks you want, I didn't establish the well-understood paradigm and boating won't be any different than other sports. As soon as someone gets seriously injured, the public will hound the sponsors, the sponsors will hound the sanctioning bodies and bingo! the rules will be changed whether you like it or not. Just hauling out the old saw of "well, that's just racing", you immediately cast yourself on the losing end of a monumental argument that has been decided a long time ago.

 

Everything else is whining.

 

.



#10 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:50 PM

Rather than continuing to dilute the Worlds thread, I thought it might be useful to move the discussion. This is how I see it to date.

 

Despite a majority of the class wanting to change the rules about foils, the vote fell short of the requisite 2/3rds majority for the proposals to move forward. Some seem to be fine with the status quo, while others, including me, feel that the class has boxed itself into a rather nasty corner and that there is a real problem with where we are.

 

I personally believe the problem we have was caused by the fact that when countries decided how they were going to vote, nobody had  a clue as to what was really going on with foiling. First, nobody had seen the extended foiling that has been observed at this Worlds. Second, nobody had seen the hobby horsing behaviour we have seen exhibited by all the leading boats on foils. Finally, nobody realised what the "Landy Solution" would look like. I believe if we had known that, we would have seen different results and also different proposals. Why? Because at the time of voting, people were holding onto a false assumption, sold to the class by the technical committee when the foil rules were introduced. I am not in any way suggesting that we were deliberately told things that were incorrect, but the vote was passed on the basis of the following comment.

 

 

I believe that the rule of 1.5m and state of knowledge of foils makes it unlikely for a fully foiling boat to win races, a fluke to win a regatta

That quote, from a member of the tec committee is the reason the rules were passed in the first place. If people had known then that it would not prevent foilers, the rule would never have been passed. Worse, if people had known it was going to lead to boats that leap out of the water and need superstar qualities to sail properly, again, I don't see the rules would have been passed.

 

So we have seen 2 votes made without the voters having the full facts. Just because we have voted once, doesn't mean we shouldn't vote again, with decent proposals and a better understanding of our situation. Unlike with governments, we don't have to wait to correct a bad vote.

 

For me, the most relevant comments to our current situation were made by in the report on the foil rules it stated

 

 

>

The spirit of the A Class has been to develop. This freedom of development is what has made the boats so great. We have to maintain this 'spirit of the class' so that in 20 years time the A Class is still the greatest multihull class in the world. Our future relies on staying at the leading edge of technology. If we fall behind the class slowly fade away, while other classes move forward and prosper

 

That is what people believed they were voting for, but our rules now mean we are no longer anywhere near the leading edge, and, more importantly, we now have boats that have very undesirable characteristics.

 

Some say, through blind faith and zero evidence, that we should wait and see, hoping that somebody will come up with a solution to stable flight, despite the fact that there is no current solution that fits our rules. I do not believe that we can leave this to chance but that we need to ensure that the A's have good sailing characteristics and are at the leading edge of development. With the right rules, we could have foiling A's that are a pleasure to sail and which don't break the bank (with the wrong rules, we can foil and break the bank!!). On the other hand, if the class doesn't want foiling, which is now a reality, the rules need to be tightened. The worst thing we can do is nothing. I believe it will kill the class.

 

To date, I haven't heard one argument in favour of leaving the rules where they are, other than because of the recent vote, a vote that received a majority despite the lack of information and the poor quality of the proposals. I haven't heard one person say that they think that the out of control, leaping out of the water foilers that we seen on the videos is what we want for the class. Some might say let's "wait and see", but if somebody does come up with some idea nobody has thought of before, it will almost certainly be something compromised because of the limitations of our rules. Moreover, how long do we wait before acting.

 

Act now and we can put in place rules that will allow the A to become the best foiler around. Yes, I do mean the best because if we get it right, it will be almost as fast (maybe even faster) than a moth and a lot easier to sail. It will put the A's back on top of the sailing world. A friend from an AC team said to me this week that his team will keep being interested in A's so long as they maintain their relevance. I believe the same applies for most others. I believe the time is right to act and ensure the A's remain the best multihull fleet .

 

Discuss.... :)

 

 

 

 

Simon, please post the full Technical Committee report you refer to so that your statements can be properly evaluated.



#11 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 05:53 PM

...as I've seen the A's there's a lot of the class that might just want to not cross the line into foils,,no?

 

....there's nothing wrong with 2 divisions

 

 

 

One, or two, name guys go through the cheese slicer that is the rigging and suddenly high speeds and techno foiling won't be that much of a rush anymore. 

 

Have you ever sailed a moth Chris?  Or any foiling boat?



#12 couchsurfer

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:15 PM

 

...as I've seen the A's there's a lot of the class that might just want to not cross the line into foils,,no?

 

....there's nothing wrong with 2 divisions

 

 

 

One, or two, name guys go through the cheese slicer that is the rigging and suddenly high speeds and techno foiling won't be that much of a rush anymore. 

 

Have you ever sailed a moth Chris?  Or any foiling boat?

.

...wow,Clean

 

.....around skiffs and high perf boats,,,when there's someone who's beyond their thrill threshold,, not fully committed to stretching-out............if they're a bit hesitant 'in the moment',and lean in even a bit,,,the boat will -instantly- dive,,with that sailor engaged with the rigging,rather than being well clear.........this situation could come up if there's sailors who love the thrill of A's,,but not ready or fully committed to foiling speeds :mellow:



#13 nautichic

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 06:54 PM

...as I've seen the A's there's a lot of the class that might just want to not cross the line into foils,,no?

 

....there's nothing wrong with 2 divisions

 

 

Precisely. End the haggle and get on with it.

 

Over time, we'll all see how foiling shakes-out for the small craft industry and then the foilistas can come crawling back when another technology supplants this evolutionary sidebar.... ;-)

 

One, or two, name guys go through the cheese slicer that is the rigging and suddenly high speeds and techno foiling won't be that much of a rush anymore. Insurance, sponsors and reluctant participants will see to that. Even NASCAR, which is the Neanderthal of auto racing, had to install restrictor plates because of the safety concerns on extremely high speed tracks.

 

Throw all the rocks you want, I didn't establish the well-understood paradigm and boating won't be any different than other sports. As soon as someone gets seriously injured, the public will hound the sponsors, the sponsors will hound the sanctioning bodies and bingo! the rules will be changed whether you like it or not. Just hauling out the old saw of "well, that's just racing", you immediately cast yourself on the losing end of a monumental argument that has been decided a long time ago.

 

Everything else is whining.

 

.

Chirs O, you are my prescient hero!



#14 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:15 PM

 

 

...as I've seen the A's there's a lot of the class that might just want to not cross the line into foils,,no?

 

....there's nothing wrong with 2 divisions

 

 

 

One, or two, name guys go through the cheese slicer that is the rigging and suddenly high speeds and techno foiling won't be that much of a rush anymore. 

 

Have you ever sailed a moth Chris?  Or any foiling boat?

.

...wow,Clean

 

.....around skiffs and high perf boats,,,when there's someone who's beyond their thrill threshold,, not fully committed to stretching-out............if they're a bit hesitant 'in the moment',and lean in even a bit,,,the boat will -instantly- dive,,with that sailor engaged with the rigging,rather than being well clear.........this situation could come up if there's sailors who love the thrill of A's,,but not ready or fully committed to foiling speeds :mellow:

 

I've sailed a moth enough times to have gone through the 'cheese grater' as Chris puts it, at well over 20 knots.  Yeah, it hurts.  No, the ambulance doesn't need to be on standby, though I heartily recommend a helmet. Proponents of slower designs often fall back on "but it's unsafe" as their primary problem.  Folks who sail the boat will tell you it's not really a problem any more than riding a bicycle at 30 mph is.  Hodges' comment about the boats being perhaps not robust enough to crash at 25 knots - that's another point.  But again, go back to the Moths; these 60 lb. craft are incredibly robust.  Do I need to remind you that Jonny Goldsberry sailed his into the side of a bridge at 25 knots last month?  Flew 50 feet, capsized spectacularly with a crowd around, paddled his boat over to the beach, put the mast back up and tied on the fitting that blew up, and kept on sailing.

 

I'm not at all saying that the A-Cat should be a full foiler.  What I am saying is that there is nothing to be afraid of when it comes to foiling boats - unless you somehow think it will bastardize sailing, which seems to be Chris's problem.

 

The real solution is probably similar to what happened to the Moth:   One guy makes the investment in the equipment and design necessary to make a boat that crushes all the other ones at a reasonable price.  The Mach 2 goes for around $23,000, weighs 60-odd pounds, fits in a box, and has destroyed all competing boats for five years now.

 

I like the two-fleet solution.  "Development" A-Class and "Restricted" A-Class, and see what happens.  Or if the majority of the A-Fleet can't let go of the fiction that a non-foiling cat is still a 'development' class, then Martin or Guillaume would be uniquely situated to create a new one-design class of foiling A-boats and get them selling quickly.  Hell, maybe Alex and the Phantom boys can find the money to underwrite the new class of single handers to go along with the Phantom...?



#15 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:24 PM

Thats really good thinking, Clean-I'm impressed.

#16 couchsurfer

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:25 PM

  ................Or if the majority of the A-Fleet can't let go of the fiction that a non-foiling cat is still a 'development' class,  ,,,,,,,,,

.

 

...or let the non-foilers crystallize into a open-build OD........and the foilers can development class to the max!

 

 

 

....there's a grand tradition in history of classes taking 2 directions between the 'conservatives','preservers',,,,,,,,and the radicals,,visionaries........nothing wrong with either!!

..........jus' look at 550's....................oh,umm,,waitaminute :mellow:



#17 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 08:54 PM

As soon as someone gets seriously injured, the public will hound the sponsors, the sponsors will hound the sanctioning bodies and bingo! the rules will be changed whether you like it or not. Just hauling out the old saw of "well, that's just racing", you immediately cast yourself on the losing end of a monumental argument that has been decided a long time ago.

 

Everything else is whining.

 

.

In the early days of train some were arguing that it was too fast, death would occur, it would be prohibited.



#18 Tcatman

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:24 PM

I like the two-fleet solution.  "Development" A-Class and "Restricted" A-Class, and see what happens.

 

As soon as you go with the modifiers...Development fleet and Restricted fleet ... you have lost because a fight for the name and heritage of A Class can't end well.

Hell, the USA now does straight board and curved board divisions under A class at some events now.....

The only solution is to Fix the rule to let those that want ... figure out how to properly fly an A class..  Now you have straight boards, curved boards and foiling division and they all live under one rule .  A class,   While this is not optimal  no compromise ever is.

Rewrite the rule so you get proper flying boats ... and just sort the divisions by rule as the amount of lifting foil a sailor chooses..

 

Keep in mind  NO class structure defines competition...   Only the competitors who show up do...   the Glen Asby's of the world are racing against other medal winners.. They really dont give a fig if the championship has 200 boats in it...... What they want to do  is to compete and win against their competitors at the highest level possible ... and there are maybe  20 members in that group at the top of the pecking order.  ((Notice...  fans only publish results for the top ten)    They want to compete on both sailing smarts and development smarts and that is what they will do... no matter what THE CLASS says.   Most of us  clearly understand that we are not racing Glen Asby at any point of the race... ... we are racing against the guys, at our level of the pecking order.

 

One key if you go with a single rule ie one fleet and then divisions.... is that all "A Class" must share the same start line and course and be scored overall... It should be in the championship rules of the class...   otherwise you will just marginalize the slow boats... and get into the ..." get out of my way... we are in different classes"  on the race course  and  interactions on the starting line issues..  Nothing revolutionary here...thiis is the same idea as sorting the class by age..  Right now A Class  race overall and within age division.  So... add three development divisions.   I would go further and  assign a handicap to the divisions and take times... ..... so that you have an overall.plus  handicap winner,   plus three divisions winners as well as top sailor in each age bracket.

 

All of this is based on the assumption that they can fix the A class rules.



#19 fireball

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:31 PM

The anti foiling camp need to take onboard that foilers have won every race held in NZ in the current series of regattas. With the NZ nationals and the worlds including the practice race this makes 13 races in a row, with one race remaining. 4 out of the top 5 boats in the worlds are foilers and some of these guys have never been so highly placed before.

Plus it is early days for the foilers and they can make big improvements to their boats and technique. In contrast, the lowriders are already very refined and will find it hard to make substantial improvements.

So the top of the A class are foilers. Voting no for the rule changes didn't keep the class as lowriders. It didn't preserve the competitive life of your boat. It just made it harder to develop the next generation of boats.

#20 teknologika

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:38 PM

Talking with Phil S about this yesterday we think that the way forward is clear.

1. Decide if the class wants to be foiling or non foiling. If you are going foiling expect to replace every boat in the fleet once the "stable flight" solution is developed. I would expect foil positions to move forwards, control systems added, rigs forward to balance etc then the boats to get stronger to take sustained foiling loads in waves and 25 Kts.

2. Assign a working group to build prototypes, with ideas like bottom in boards, and control systems etc. then test, test, test.

3. Then write your rules. If you want the class to be non foiling, then state that in the rules "under normal circumstances, one hull must be in contact with the water at all times, and full hydrofoil flight is prohibited." If you are going foiling, amend the RRS like the moths have done to allow wands and enjoy full control.

Most importantly, the class members should try foiling first ( on a moth or foiling A) to know what you are in for. We never had that option but the A's do.

#21 sosoomii

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 09:46 PM

Allowing bottom in boards would kill the class surely? Just way too impractical for most people in most locations.

#22 Sonofagun

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:19 PM

We ain't going back. Once we saw ETNZ foiling, (just 18 months ago) the future of catamarans was clear.

Good on those guys in Takapuna for showing the A Class fleet that it can be done relatively easily.

Looks like fun to me. Should attract a new generation of sailor to an already strong and growing class.

#23 Phil S

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:25 PM

Wands will make a huge difference to stability and safety. The class could easilly adopt the moth rule declaring wqnds legal. Maybe even the chief measurer could post an interpretation without gojng through the tedious voting prcess if he can get a concesnsus in favour.

After all, as Steve Clark pointed out in one of the other threads, the ISAF rule requiring manual control litterally bans rotating masts, gybing centreboards, and even fully battened sails which tack themselves. So maybe we should be lobying ISAf to sort the rule out to match what real boats are doing already.

#24 Phil S

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:27 PM

If you make the ACats more cumbersome to rig, launch and handle, as well as harder to sail and double the price, who will choose an A over a Moth?

#25 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:45 PM

Nathan Outteridges excellent video:

Tremendous video that answers a lot of questions:
1) yes it is legal to adjust board rake(AOI),
2) windward board can be uncleated and allowed to rise to reduce wetted surface or
3) windward board can be adjusted for a negative AOI to add RM,
4) Nathan says these boats(foilers) are more fun, more exciting and easier to sail than A Class boats were just a few years ago.
5) Nathan has AOI adjustment rigged so that he can adjust the rake of the leeward board while on the trapeze.
Pretty damn cool. Twist grip control would definitely work but an "uptip" foil would make it much more stable if a way could be found to get it in from the top. ETNZ pioneered "uptip" foils would still require manual rake control(like on Groupama). Twist grip would make that much easier to do.

#26 SimonN

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:46 PM

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

 

Great interview with Nathan Outteridge on Youtube

 

Both supports some of what I say and contradicts it!



#27 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 10:58 PM

I like the two-fleet solution.  "Development" A-Class and "Restricted" A-Class, and see what happens.  Or if the majority of the A-Fleet can't let go of the fiction that a non-foiling cat is still a 'development' class, then Martin or Guillaume would be uniquely situated to create a new one-design class of foiling A-boats and get them selling quickly.  Hell, maybe Alex and the Phantom boys can find the money to underwrite the new class of single handers to go along with the Phantom...?

 

 

Clean,

 

Great Post.  I am for the two-fleet solution.  It allows development but also allows those of us who do not have the finances or do not want to spend those finances on upgrades until this is sorted out to race and be scored against similar platforms.  I would come in near the back of the fleet anyway these days, just not enough time on the water anymore so my input is just my personal feelings about the current situation.  I am all for the development if it is done in a manner the allows the class to continue to grow and still gives those with classic boats a feeling that they still belong.  I will never be at the pointy end of the fleet so being able to sail against like boats works for me.

 

Thanks,

TTS



#28 SimonN

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:05 PM

Doug

 

As usual, you are cherry picking what Nathan said rather than try to understand what he is talking about. Nathan's big issue when he sailed his DNA was he kept nosediving. He sailed without winglets on the rudder and there are a number of photos of him pitchpoling. He is now saying they are easier to sail because they aren't pitchpoling. However, Listen to what he keeps on saying about the rest of the time. For instance, he says that "in the breezier stuff (he) has control issues" and he also say that the boats are "flying out of the water, out of control". What you need to realise is that Nathan is good enough to stay on the boat when it flies out of control, very few are.

 

As for your idea that a twist grip would be good, have you ever sailed with one? I have, on 2 different classes. It is hard enough to use on a rudder that isn't loaded up, but on a centreboard, you have no hope at all. Because of the gearing you need, even on a lightly loaded rudder, you need a reasonable amount of twisting to get 1 degree of change. That takes time. Even if I am wrong and it is possible to change the angle of attack of the main foils with a  twist, that is really very little different from the system that Nathan has at the moment. It is a rough setting to get the board in range, There is absolutely no way you could dial in a change to the boards fast enough for it to provide heave control.



#29 NUDDY

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:11 PM

We ain't going back. Once we saw ETNZ foiling, (just 18 months ago) the future of catamarans was clear.

Good on those guys in Takapuna for showing the A Class fleet that it can be done relatively easily.

Looks like fun to me. Should attract a new generation of sailor to an already strong and growing class.

+1



#30 NUDDY

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:26 PM

If you make the ACats more cumbersome to rig, launch and handle, as well as harder to sail and double the price, who will choose an A over a Moth?

Although I am now too unfit and un-agile for even an A-Class, a few years back I could have handled an A whereas even a skiff moth was way beyond me.

I think there is a good argument for keeping A-Class easy to handle. I don't think the majority of A-Class sailors could easily transition to a moth. You won't lose them to moths, you will lose them to a non-foiling A-Class called whatever. The life of a good class is preserved by those who want to sail in it

2 division solution is the way to go.



#31 SimonN

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:39 PM

I honestly believe that it is possible to make a foiling A Class which will be as easy to sail as a non foiling one, but not with the current rules. In fact, get it right and the boats will probably be easier to sail than they used to be because you can cut out the pitchpoling as the foils give you heave stability. What I would expect to see is enough adjustment that you can dial in as much or little foiling as you want, similar to the control Nathan shows in the video. There would be a setting that allows the boat to "lowride" but have enough lift to keep the bow out - let's call it "chicken mode" :D

 

This is a great opportunity. I slightly disagree with Nathan when he says we made a mistake with the rule changes, because I now believe that the proposed changes weren't considered enough and were too messy. However, we have the opportunity to get it right and if we do so, I believe that the A's will become an even stronger class.



#32 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:44 PM

Doug
 
As usual, you are cherry picking what Nathan said rather than try to understand what he is talking about. Nathan's big issue when he sailed his DNA was he kept nosediving. He sailed without winglets on the rudder and there are a number of photos of him pitchpoling. He is now saying they are easier to sail because they aren't pitchpoling. However, Listen to what he keeps on saying about the rest of the time. For instance, he says that "in the breezier stuff (he) has control issues" and he also say that the boats are "flying out of the water, out of control". What you need to realise is that Nathan is good enough to stay on the boat when it flies out of control, very few are.
 
As for your idea that a twist grip would be good, have you ever sailed with one? I have, on 2 different classes. It is hard enough to use on a rudder that isn't loaded up, but on a centreboard, you have no hope at all. Because of the gearing you need, even on a lightly loaded rudder, you need a reasonable amount of twisting to get 1 degree of change. That takes time. Even if I am wrong and it is possible to change the angle of attack of the main foils with a  twist, that is really very little different from the system that Nathan has at the moment. It is a rough setting to get the board in range, There is absolutely no way you could dial in a change to the boards fast enough for it to provide heave control.

 

Thats simply not true! My 16' monofoiler had twist grip control of the main foil and that was one of the things that worked perfectly on that boat. It had twice the load an A cat would have and worked well enough for me to foil the boat right off the bat. With the right design a system could work well on an A Cat but it would be ideal if used in conjunction with an "uptip" foil. As to foil area-there is PLENTY of room if the large radius could be eliminated in the "J" foil. The only major problem I see is finding a way to use an "uptip" "L" foil within the rules.

Nathan is so close to perfect in his set up-if they could just figure out how to get a foil that had a greater period of heave stability to work with his AOI system he might not need a twist grip-though it would be simpler to use than his system.

It doesn't have to be a "normal" twist grip-the system I used allowed plenty of force to be used-to the point I bent a control rod-and still foiled.

 

aeroSKIFF extention tiller "twist grip":

Attached Files

  • Attached File  001.JPG   175K   19 downloads


#33 hoop

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:12 AM

I hope we see some insert from the bottom configurations and other ideas at regional regattas. More sailors in the class need to see and sail these boats; then we will be better informed to "get it right".  I have no problem racing my current A-cat against such "experimental" boats as I am positive it will be for the better. In the end we must decide to accommodate foiling or not and talking, by itself, will not provide the class as a whole the performance and practicality information we need to "get it right".

                                                   A-cat US-80



#34 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:18 AM

I honestly believe that it is possible to make a foiling A Class which will be as easy to sail as a non foiling one, but not with the current rules. In fact, get it right and the boats will probably be easier to sail than they used to be because you can cut out the pitchpoling as the foils give you heave stability. What I would expect to see is enough adjustment that you can dial in as much or little foiling as you want, similar to the control Nathan shows in the video. There would be a setting that allows the boat to "lowride" but have enough lift to keep the bow out - let's call it "chicken mode" :D

 

This is a great opportunity. I slightly disagree with Nathan when he says we made a mistake with the rule changes, because I now believe that the proposed changes weren't considered enough and were too messy. However, we have the opportunity to get it right and if we do so, I believe that the A's will become an even stronger class.

 

I think Nathan is close to perfect-so much so that I think with some intense creative thinking the boat can be improved to foil well in all conditions within the current rules.



#35 Phil S

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:20 AM

Some lessons from the moth transition:

We also tried to accommodate the people who did not want to foil. In AUS at least we offer trophies for Scows, and non foiling skiffs as well as age and gender options. But to accommodate the slow boats we use a race car type finish where the slow boats stop racing on less laps after the winner finishes. It adds a lot of load to the race committee who have to record every boat on every lap. Thankfully no longer needed at Worlds regattas as only foilers enter now.

Making a one design spin off class is temporary. it soon looks obsolete as the development boats progress.eg Europe Dinghy was a 1960s champion moth.

Turning the lift off is a falacy. Even if we disconnect the wand and flap, the boat will still take off at displacement speed if the pow pitches up slightly in a wave. It will then accellerate and lift higher until it crashes. A lot like waht we have been watching in NZ this week. Early on I tried some tiny foils with not control or flap, they did not fly often but when they did they were scary as they just went faster until they crashed.

We use a twist tiller to trim the rudder. Its fairly subtle and no use what so ever for contolling pitch through waves. It all happens way to quickly, I doubt that twist grip conol of the main foil would work, considering the added loads, requiring finer gearing and also the likley losses involved in getting linkages from the extension to the two centreboard cases.

I was not suggesting that any of the existing ACat people would convert to moths but rather that the mythical huge market of foiling junkies are more likely to buy a moth than a foiling A at double the price.

#36 teknologika

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:23 AM

I honestly believe that it is possible to make a foiling A Class which will be as easy to sail as a non foiling one, but not with the current rules. In fact, get it right and the boats will probably be easier to sail than they used to be because you can cut out the pitchpoling as the foils give you heave stability. What I would expect to see is enough adjustment that you can dial in as much or little foiling as you want, similar to the control Nathan shows in the video. There would be a setting that allows the boat to "lowride" but have enough lift to keep the bow out - let's call it "chicken mode" :D

 

This is a great opportunity. I slightly disagree with Nathan when he says we made a mistake with the rule changes, because I now believe that the proposed changes weren't considered enough and were too messy. However, we have the opportunity to get it right and if we do so, I believe that the A's will become an even stronger class.

 

I think Nathan is close to perfect-so much so that I think with some intense creative thinking the boat can be improved to foil well in all conditions within the current rules.

 

Hmm ... that's interesting because I can see heaps that could be improved.

 

As I am not a class member, I have no intention of suggesting how they should proceed, i.e. to foil or not. It is up to the sailing class members to decide.



#37 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 12:49 AM

Doug

 

Why does Nathan say the class made a mistake with the rules? If you understood half as much as you make out you do, you wouldn't make such stupid comments. Yet again, you barge into debates that you aren't involved with, about boats you don't sail and which are way beyond anything you have experience of. You trawl the net for anything you think might strengthen you arguments and you distort things for your own benefit. We went through all of this with the Moths and you drove away all the top Moth sailors. And now you are doing exactly the same thing all over again.

 

BTW, have you any proof your boat foiled, or your twist grip worked? If your twist grip worked well enough so that it could change the A0A of an A Class centreboard, there are many who would love to see the details of your design because clearly you have found a way of getting a mechanical advantage nobody else has managed to do.

 

As usual when you're dead wrong you lash out like a little kid-just pitiful.

Because he feels the only solution is inserting the foil from the bottom. I don't.

 

Nathan's points:

1) yes it is legal to adjust board rake(AOI),
2) windward board can be uncleated and allowed to rise to reduce wetted surface or
3) windward board can be adjusted for a negative AOI to add RM,
4) Nathan says these boats(foilers) are more fun, more exciting and easier to sail than A Class boats were just a few years ago.
5) Nathan has AOI adjustment rigged so that he can adjust the rake of the leeward board while on the trapeze.

 



#38 SimonN

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:36 AM

Thanks to everybody who has PM'ed me. I feel flattered and humbled, if a little stupid. At my age, I should have enough self control and maturity to ignore Doug. However, to help, I have now placed him on ignore and won't be reading or replying to anything he says. It shouldn't be a hardship as he never added anything of value to either the Moth or A Class debate. Now I can live that old Moth saying

 

See No Doug,

Read No Doug

Hear No Doug :D

 

I would appreciate that for the sake of my sanity and new found resolve if people could stop quoting him in posts :)



#39 Thing1

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:42 AM

Done the same. Sick of Doug polluting otherwise useful threads.



#40 Chris O

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:48 AM

Have you ever sailed a moth Chris?  Or any foiling boat?

 

No to the Moth and yes, several times, to the any foiling boat. So now that the thrust of your query has been handled, what's the point except to be a seriously unpolished "journalist" who sets-up ridiculous straw man arguments in order to avoid a direct ad hominem attack?

 

Please Clean, get some standards in your manner and stop with the nonsensical tripe.

.



#41 Chris O

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:10 AM

I've sailed a moth enough times to have gone through the 'cheese grater' as Chris puts it, at well over 20 knots.  Yeah, it hurts.  No, the ambulance doesn't need to be on standby, though I heartily recommend a helmet. Proponents of slower designs often fall back on "but it's unsafe" as their primary problem.  Folks who sail the boat will tell you it's not really a problem any more than riding a bicycle at 30 mph is.

 

So, let's see here... by your own admission, "no an ambulance doesn't need to be there", but you "heartily recommend a helmet." Hmmm, curious dichotomy to say the least. Now why would anyone need a helmet, which is specifically designed to avoid head injuries of the very serious type, but hey, let's not have an ambulance handy in case of one of those serious type injuries.

 

Make up your mind. Like I said earlier, if you won't establish safety standards, then the insurance companies will do it for you by denying a liability policy for an event.

 

I used to ride Observed Motorcycle Trials at a serious level and back then, nobody wore helmets until that fateful day when all the problem issues came to the fore in a very big way for one rider who found himself on the backside of a coma. Now, you can't come to the starting line without an approved helmet and the sport is so much the better for the recognition. But it wasn't the sanctioning body that decided the issue, because they were laughing off the danger factors just like a few numbskulls on this thread. It was the liability coverage that did it and that was that. The faster you go, the more likely are the dangers and you shouldn't need a sorcerer to understand that problem.

 

Tuck your gonads back inside your body, bud and face the music responsibly. As a representative of the press, you have a special, functional need to be out front of this issue and not one of the fools who spew, "It's OK, big boy, the number ten isn't that important in life. 1-5 is good enough for a proper go-round in this world."

 

I'm not at all saying that the A-Cat should be a full foiler.  What I am saying is that there is nothing to be afraid of when it comes to foiling boats - unless you somehow think it will bastardize sailing, which seems to be Chris's problem.

 

 

I don't have a problem, I'm just voicing my opinion on the matter. I've been saying that there should be a two class solution for this issue for quite awhile now. Because of the apparent lack of established leadership in the class and wishy-washy rules that do not prevent, or condone... they are in a fix and the only substantial way out is to form two classes and let the boys do what they want.

 

I guess I have to say it again because some folks want to cast me into a nifty box... I'm not against foiling. It just doesn't belong on the same playground as non-foiling boats. Just because I make jokes about foiling proponents, does not mean that I want them to go into the hopper. I make jokes about everything and everyone in my midst, so please don't let yourselves feel special in that regard. Bring some lightness to your day and learn how to smile.

 

 

 

I like the two-fleet solution.  "Development" A-Class and "Restricted" A-Class, and see what happens.  Or if the majority of the A-Fleet can't let go of the fiction that a non-foiling cat is still a 'development' class, then Martin or Guillaume would be uniquely situated to create a new one-design class of foiling A-boats and get them selling quickly.  Hell, maybe Alex and the Phantom boys can find the money to underwrite the new class of single handers to go along with the Phantom...?

 

 

Finally, after the innuendo and unnecessary jabs, comes something of material heft. Nice to see that you agree with my long stated position.

.



#42 knobblyoldjimbo

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:19 AM

Just a thought - the hulls are skinny as because that was the way to go in the olden days, what's the max width of the hulls under the rules.  If they were wider then a cassette insert can be wider and accommodate a bigger foil.  If the flying A's are here to stay then design a boat that works only for flying - wider hulls to accommodate the foil, beams further forward to allow more stability and possibly more mast rake to keep the effort in the right place.

 

KO



#43 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:19 AM

I've sailed a moth enough times to have gone through the 'cheese grater' as Chris puts it, at well over 20 knots.  Yeah, it hurts.  No, the ambulance doesn't need to be on standby, though I heartily recommend a helmet. Proponents of slower designs often fall back on "but it's unsafe" as their primary problem.  Folks who sail the boat will tell you it's not really a problem any more than riding a bicycle at 30 mph is.

 


Make up your mind. Like I said earlier, if you won't establish safety standards, then the insurance companies will do it for you by denying a liability policy for an event.

 


.

How many fatalities with cars, planes ? how many with foils ?



#44 teknologika

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:39 AM

Just a thought - the hulls are skinny as because that was the way to go in the olden days, what's the max width of the hulls under the rules.  If they were wider then a cassette insert can be wider and accommodate a bigger foil.  If the flying A's are here to stay then design a boat that works only for flying - wider hulls to accommodate the foil, beams further forward to allow more stability and possibly more mast rake to keep the effort in the right place.

 

KO

 

If cassettes are legal, then you can make any foil you like (such as a L or V), as long as you are prepared to make the cassette long fore-aft. You just need to put the foil in lengthways to get the bottom in, then, once the foil is out the bottom of the hull, turn the foil 90 degrees then slot the cassette into place.

 

You can also have a wand, it will just need to be inserted in a second cassette from the top of the hull, then wait for the class measurers to interpret RRS 52 for stored power.



#45 zerothehero

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:09 AM

sailing is going through some interesting times, isn't it?  Foiling seems to be causing a ruckus in development classes like the A class.  As someone way outside the issue at hand I look in with a bit of wonder.  Why not go the 2 class route?  While foiling boats are the top of the pile in sailing right now, they do present problems.  Cost, complexity, usability, practicality, to name a few.  Doesn't mean they don't have a place, they do.  But if it means flushing a whole fleet down the toilet(non foiling A cats), that isn't good.  As an example, if you said to every Laser sailor out there; "look you all need to go buy a new Laser that is 50% faster but 90% more expensive, you would loose people, and boats.  Not a good model to grow.  But maybe if you introduced a new boat that was similar, but with foils, you could let the market decide.  Sailing is expensive and by all looks of it, in decline in the USA.  Adding cost and complexity might not help that.  Look at windsurfing.  When windsurfing was huge boards were slow, heavy, and cheap.  The sport was huge.  As the boards got more physical, faster, more expensive, more unstable, and harder to use.....  The sport started to die.  Now it is a shadow of what it once was.  Speed+cost+complexity+difficulty of use often means better racing for the few that go along at the expense of the many who decide to bail out.  I hope the A class gets it right, no matter what they do.



#46 SimonN

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:10 AM

In fact, the maximum fore and aft length you would need is 400mm, due to the rule of that stops going closer to the centreline than 750mm. I believe that the real problem is that doesn't give you enough room to be able to do a proper self levelling system like we see on Groupama or Flying Phantom. I am also very much against the need for such a cassette case, with inserting foils from below being a better solution. What I am advocating is getting the rules right

 

And I am as certain as I can be that wands will not be allowed in A's. Unfortunately, the moths stuffed it for the A's by adding rule 6.4. Every time I try to argue otherwise, I get the fact that the Moths felt they needed to specifically write a rule on the issue thrown at me. yes, I know the argument that the Moths didn't need to do it, but that hasn't carried any weight. I think it is very safe to say the A's will not be using wands and flaps.



#47 teknologika

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:26 AM

In fact, the maximum fore and aft length you would need is 400mm, due to the rule of that stops going closer to the centreline than 750mm. I believe that the real problem is that doesn't give you enough room to be able to do a proper self levelling system like we see on Groupama or Flying Phantom. I am also very much against the need for such a cassette case, with inserting foils from below being a better solution. What I am advocating is getting the rules right

 

And I am as certain as I can be that wands will not be allowed in A's. Unfortunately, the moths stuffed it for the A's by adding rule 6.4. Every time I try to argue otherwise, I get the fact that the Moths felt they needed to specifically write a rule on the issue thrown at me. yes, I know the argument that the Moths didn't need to do it, but that hasn't carried any weight. I think it is very safe to say the A's will not be using wands and flaps.

 

Agree 100% that the rules should be right.

 

Just to show how crazy RRS 52 is if you interpret it to mean moth style wands are illegal then, you could argue that having a shock cord return on ANYTHING is not legal under RRS 52. So that bungy to tidy up a vang tail, that is adjusting rigging. The bungy on your tiler to auto-centre, that is adjusting a movable hull appendage, so it's illegal. Shock cord on your outhall, that is illegal too.

 

The TP52 class has an excellent interpretation of RRS 52 here, which highlights a lot of issues when the rule is considered.



#48 Phil S

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:51 AM

RRS 52 is a mess. Years ago it was about stored energy, now its about manual power. Obviously reworded over the yeaars with little thought of the consequences. It really bans a heap of things which every sailor uses every time they go sailing.  ACat sailors already fail when they let the wind rotate their mast every tack or gybe.  Any boat gybing a boom breaks this rule. 

 

The moths have clarified the wand issue, the maxi boat people just dumped it and allowed powered everything, I do not know what the dinghy classes like 505s and I14s do to allow gybing centreboards but these also obviously fail RRS52. If taken litterally any spring or piece of shockcord is illegal, even the bit which pulls Nathan's foil forward when he eases the rake adjustment. Get real.



#49 dogwatch

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:05 AM

This is an interesting discussion. I've never even seen an A-class so can't comment on details. What I have seen before is the effect of a small number of professional sailors bringing a level of spending into a class well above that of other sailors, which seems to be what is happening with ETNZ using the A-class as a promotional/developmental vehicle. That's been the kiss of death for some other fleets around here. Big excitement for a season when the pros turn up. Hey, these big names are interested in our class. Sailing journalists love it too, of course. A year or two later it's "where did everybody go?". YMMV.

#50 WetnWild

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:33 AM

Wow the muppets who have no skin in the game are having a field day.

#51 dogwatch

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:55 AM

^

Charmed I'm sure. If you only want comments from those inside the class, why the hell are you posting on SA? Here's the A-Class forum. Seems a lively sort of place, particularly for those in need of pharms. http://aclasscatamaranforum.yuku.com/

#52 SimonN

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:58 AM

WetnWild

 

Thanks for the really helpful contribution. You have skin in the game (as do I), yet you aren't prepared to have a proper discussion about it. I know my views aren't alone because of the conversations I have been having with people at the worlds (yes, there are such things as texts, IM and Skype). I had hoped that seeing that so few people where at the worlds (compared with the number of A Class sailors there are) that people with differing views might have been eloquent enough to enter into a proper discussion. At least some A Class sailors have entered the debate on here and on other threads (and it seems clear you don't know who on here has an A or who has long association with the class). I think it's pretty important that the views of people outside of the class are heard as well as those within the class. maybe we can even learn something, not least from the Moth guys who have been through all of this before.



#53 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:07 PM

For those advocating a 4 foil boat using wands on the two main foils: the C Class Rocker proved that compared to a seahugging C Class that configuration was relatively slow most of the time. Wands are definitely not the answer unless a single wand is used at a time on the lee foil with the windward foil(and wand) retracted.

Even if the ETNZ and Groupama C pioneered "uptip" foils are used there will still be a requirement for manual control of the angle of incidence-similar to Nathans system. And every "uptip" system used effectively so far REQUIRES that the windward foil be retracted.

The really interesting thing about A Class foiling so far is the success of boats using 4 foils all the time. Of course, in the video Nathan explained how the windward foil could be automatically be retracted(or be used at a neg. AOI for RM).

So even with an "uptip" foil, which relies on leeway for altitude control in large measure, it is likely that the windward foil will have to be retracted and that a viable AOI control(maybe similar to Nathans) will have to be used.

I'm thinking that given the success of the 4 foil boats in this Worlds, maybe the class is closer, than most think, to having a good system.



#54 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 01:43 PM

In fact, the maximum fore and aft length you would need is 400mm, due to the rule of that stops going closer to the centreline than 750mm. I believe that the real problem is that doesn't give you enough room to be able to do a proper self levelling system like we see on Groupama or Flying Phantom. I am also very much against the need for such a cassette case, with inserting foils from below being a better solution. What I am advocating is getting the rules right

 

And I am as certain as I can be that wands will not be allowed in A's. Unfortunately, the moths stuffed it for the A's by adding rule 6.4. Every time I try to argue otherwise, I get the fact that the Moths felt they needed to specifically write a rule on the issue thrown at me. yes, I know the argument that the Moths didn't need to do it, but that hasn't carried any weight. I think it is very safe to say the A's will not be using wands and flaps.

 

It's really important to realize that the foil system on Groupama and the Flying Phantom are NOT self leveling-they require manual adjustment of the angle of incidence and they require that the windward foil be retracted. But the "uptip" foil allows long periods of foiling where the foil doesn't ,necessarily, require AOI adjustment. But having manual AOI adjustment is a requirement for this type of foil system. And leeway is the major "regulator" of altitude........

 

 

Another very good article in the  February 2014 issue of Seahorse magazine by Magnus Clarke. The following is an excerpt from the article:

"The Emirates Team New Zealand system, which is really the basis for C-Class foiling, relies upon the use of leeway to moderate the effect of the lifting foil and to help make the boat heave stable. As the boat sails down the track and begins to fly it speeds up a great deal due to reduced drag. This extra speed alows for a great deal more lift to be produced by the foils and so the boat rides higher, as the mass is constant. As the boat rides higher there is less foil in the water. If the strut is principally responsible for limiting leeway there is now less of it to do the work of keeping the boat moving forwards. The boat automatically corrects for this by yawing, at which point the strut will use a higher angle of attack caused by the leeway to create a force equivalent to the wing's side force.
The leeway, however, has an effect on the effective angle of attack that the foil wing experiences. As the boat crabs sideways the wing- or relatively horizontal- portion of the foil sees a lower effective angle of attack and as such the lift produced is moderated or reduced until the boat itself reaches dynamic equilibrium. This is also aided by the inboard tip starting to breach out of the water-this reduces available area to create lift for the boat and also leads toward dynamic stability in heave."


====
 



#55 macca

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:09 PM

Doug, you do not need much manual adjustment on a Groupama / fly phantom foil if the conditions are steady (ie not huge gusts or big pressure changes) so this system would work really well on the A cats. You set the AOA for a condition and you are good to go. the fringe conditions are where you need to be more active with the foil. You wind more AOA in to get the thing up on the foil and then once you are up you back it off a bit. But thi swindow is pretty narrow and I think on an A cat you could also influence the behaviour with body weight to tweak the AOA for a moment to get it to pop out.

 

lifting and dropping the foils each tack gybe is a simple system already shown on the c class and phantom.



#56 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 02:15 PM

Thanks, macca! It doesn't seem to me that the "uptip" foils would work too well if the windward foil was left down-so it seems they would need to have a retraction system. Some A Class guys have said that retracting and deploying the foil every tack or gybe adds too much to the workload. Do you think this can be overcome by a different method or?

Doesn't Groupama tie the board into the trapeze somehow to make it simpler?



#57 P Flados

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:11 PM

A lot of people have said a lot, but I really do not see many (other than SimonN) that are really trying to focus an getting the choices written down and then talking through them.  Most are thinking "to fly" ot "not to fly" but it would probably be better to think things trough a little deeper.  Here are a few thoughts from another Non A Class foiler wannabe.   

 

If the class does not want to foil, go back to straight boards only, or large radius constant curve © boards.

 

Foiling has advantages, but cost & complexity do go up if you want to foil. 

 

If the class does want to foil, you still have choices.

  • The lowest cost and most simple solution is insert from the bottom uptip L foils similar to ETNZ and Groupama C with no "on the fly" adjustments at all.  These can be retracted for minimum extension below the hulls which for most occasions would allow insertion on the shore.  Also, the uptip design also promotes some inherent durability with the more fragile tip much less likely to ever hit ground.  This would promote a few makers to start out with a very high stability option that could be back-fit into existing boats. 
     
  • The next level up is to allow some manual on the fly adjustments.
     
  • If you change the rules and leave it wide open (possibly event allowing T Foils tips that extend past B Max), you will probably get a wands - flaps solution.  This is probably the high dollar solution, both short term and long term.  Short term, you get T Foils that are almost assured to let anyone foil but with much complexity and much less friendly launch/retrieve.  Long term and you get the the cost of makers trying for dominant solution and then wanting payback.  Eventually, I even see someone coming up with a really good flapped L Foil that is faster but a real pain to make and maintain.  

With flaps, it really is more of an arms race.  

 

With the no on the fly adjustment uptip, you probably get solutions that range from the easier to sail but slower to the faster but more skill required.

 

One thought on minimizing the added cost of foiling is to increase the boat minimum weight.  

 

Foils and rudders are not cheap.  However if you add in trying to make them really light, the cost goes up and the durability goes down. 

 

Heck, the weight limit could actually be used as a leveling thing until things get more sorted out.  Allow straight board boats to stay as is.  Make C board boats add say 5% extra.  Make uptip board boats come in a 10% above straight board boats.  Make anything with on the fly or auto adjusting come in at 15% above the straight guys.



#58 blunted

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:15 PM

For those advocating a 4 foil boat using wands on the two main foils: the C Class Rocker proved that compared to a seahugging C Class that configuration was relatively slow most of the time. Wands are definitely not the answer unless a single wand is used at a time on the lee foil with the windward foil(and wand) retracted.

Even if the ETNZ and Groupama C pioneered "uptip" foils are used there will still be a requirement for manual control of the angle of incidence-similar to Nathans system. And every "uptip" system used effectively so far REQUIRES that the windward foil be retracted.

The really interesting thing about A Class foiling so far is the success of boats using 4 foils all the time. Of course, in the video Nathan explained how the windward foil could be automatically be retracted(or be used at a neg. AOI for RM).

So even with an "uptip" foil, which relies on leeway for altitude control in large measure, it is likely that the windward foil will have to be retracted and that a viable AOI control(maybe similar to Nathans) will have to be used.

I'm thinking that given the success of the 4 foil boats in this Worlds, maybe the class is closer, than most think, to having a good system.

Doug might I suggest you compare apples and apples. 

 

OYR was slower in many conditions thaN a sea hugger, for a number of reasons, namely it had far more junk in the water than say Alpha, and it was heavier by a reasonable margin. Wands are a reasonable answer for sure. In a-cats having four on the floor is a more level proposition, as everyone has four on the floor due to a lack of hands plain and simple. What you do with those four, is not a simple answer, but the C-cat A-cat thing is a bit of a false equivilancy due to crewing issues in your argument above. A C-cat doesn't foil as well as an AC-72, why? Inertia and lack of hands to play with toys.

 

For my part, if we do another go around, wands would get a serious look for sure, more than the precisely one day we spent testing wands this last cycle. It's simply a response time issue, shit happens way too fast in small boats and there are less and less hands to go around, until you offload a few more variables on to the boat and it's equipment to manage, the A-cat sailor will find himself short staffed most days.

 

Having briefly watched the day 3 video or whatever it was the other day, and only briefly, my first impression was, "OK, looks like early days foiling on those things", a lot of porposing going on there, which comes back to a lack of balance in 3-axis, 4 dimensions kind of thing (The 4th dimension being time). This speaks to more time required to work things out. The results however seem clear enough to me, even if it's ugly, it's working. There is a legitimate parallel between C-cats and A's there in development terms. FYH was crushing Canaan downhill in moderate conditions even with half assed foiling for much of the summer. Foiling works, much of the time, the art is in making it work well almost all of the time.

 

My thoughts on the perennial squawk about costs at the top of the fleet down lower etc. Yes, it always starts off quite expensive, but the trickle down does come, these days, thanks to all manner of factors, it seems to come pretty bloody fast. Just look at the phantom. From simply discussing ANY kind of foiling on a cat in a boardroom at ETNZ in November or 2011 to full foiling production dinghy, with pretty worked out bits, in December of 2013, for less than $50,000 USD for a two man dinghy. To me, that is a massive acceleration of trickle down to the every-man stratum of the world. Is $50K a lot for a dinghy, yes, but it's still less than a new I-14 right? So collectively one of the greatest steps forward in outright boat speed has been developed and commercialized in 2 years flat. Yes, credit is due to many others who fucked around with foils for years before that, but 2.5 years ago everyone was saying foiling cats may never beat sea-huggers, 2 years later you cc write a cheque and put a lie to the statement with an off the shelf product. To me that is quite remarkable that such a development could trickle down from on high so quickly and so accessibly. It suggests to me, that there is a reasonable chance for things to get refined very quickly in a class full of do-dickers and thinkers like the A-cat.

 

Yes, obsolescence is always a risk, hell, it's pretty much garanteed on a long enough time line for any boat. The debate is always about not alienating a healthy group of sailors who is happy sailing together. Wait one more worlds cycle and let the Phantoms of the world work out the kinks, and re-visit the issue and have another think on it then. 



#59 blunted

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:17 PM

Thanks, macca! It doesn't seem to me that the "uptip" foils would work too well if the windward foil was left down-so it seems they would need to have a retraction system. Some A Class guys have said that retracting and deploying the foil every tack or gybe adds too much to the workload. Do you think this can be overcome by a different method or?

Doesn't Groupama tie the board into the trapeze somehow to make it simpler?

Not quite, on GA the crew runs to windward and pulls down on a handle suspended from the trap line, it pulls the windward foil up using the body weight of the crew vs arm strength. No, simply hooking it to the trap does not work, unless you can be sure the crew would have all his weight on the wire, after each and every tack or gybe. Linked like that, it would create a pretty locked down dependency between crew and board position.



#60 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:10 PM

Thanks, macca! It doesn't seem to me that the "uptip" foils would work too well if the windward foil was left down-so it seems they would need to have a retraction system. Some A Class guys have said that retracting and deploying the foil every tack or gybe adds too much to the workload. Do you think this can be overcome by a different method or?

Doesn't Groupama tie the board into the trapeze somehow to make it simpler?

Not quite, on GA the crew runs to windward and pulls down on a handle suspended from the trap line, it pulls the windward foil up using the body weight of the crew vs arm strength. No, simply hooking it to the trap does not work, unless you can be sure the crew would have all his weight on the wire, after each and every tack or gybe. Linked like that, it would create a pretty locked down dependency between crew and board position.

 

B, great posts-thanks for the input....



#61 CT>

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:25 PM

All that is required to make more stable flight is a Groupama/Flying Phantom/AC72 style foil and no restrictions on span.  The J foils used in the A-class worlds were just about the least stable shape you could use, its no wonder there were issues when the breeze came up.  To enable early flying, you'd be looking at an L-foil with a couple degrees of dihedral and longer span than the rule currently allows.  

 

Don't overlook the importance of the rudders and elevators.  Sounds like most boats need their transoms to be beefed up to support larger asymmetric rudder elevators and longer rudders.

 

There is clearly a lot of tuning that can be done with this class before you start thinking about automatic ride height adjustment systems.  I'd recommend some clever sailors focus on getting the basics sorted out first (geometry, balance, lift, drag, etc), then digging into the details of control systems when you have that sorted.



#62 Chris O

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:26 PM

How many fatalities with cars, planes ? how many with foils ?

 

 

Let's ask another question then, shall we?

 

Would you be willing to sustain a major brain debilitation because of a lack of a helmet in a sport where they are easily available?

 

No, I didn't think so.

 

I don't know if you have kids, but if you did... would you allow one of them to take a chance on a lifetime injury simply because you were looking to make a point?

 

Again... No, I didn't think so.

 

Up the speed and the danger factors are upped, as well.

 

Maybe you saw the young woman snowboarder in the Olympics who took a plant and smashed-in the back of her helmet when she made contact with the snow? She, thankfully, walked away, but think about the possible injury should she have not been mandated by the insurers and the organizing body, to have the helmet in place prior to competition?

 

I love the obtuse aspects of the interaction, T-Cat, but you are simply being ignorant of reality.



#63 TracyO

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:33 PM

A somewhat dissenting opinion.....

I have raced beach cats of all forms and sizes for 38 years and A-cats exclusively for the past 12.  I have owned 9 A-cats.  Ten if you count the one that I recently cut down for my young son. I travel extensively up and down the east coast of the US, up to 14,000 miles/year, to attend regattas and support the class I love.  I am a disciple of the A-cat.  I tell everyone that once you get on an A-cat, you will be spoiled for all other boats.  Admittedly though, I have never sailed a moth.  I have raced in other wonderful classes that I thought, on the strength of the boat alone, would never die, only to see them fade into oblivion.  The 18sq is a perfect example.

Aside from the boat itself, one of the most attractive aspects of the class, at least for me, is the opportunity to compete against some of the greatest sailors in the world.   Although I might not be there with them at the finish, I am there with them at the starting line.  I sail around the course knowing that if I've prepared my boat, practiced all I can and sail smart, there's always a chance I can be there with them somewhere on the course.   I know that when I am not there with them at the finish, it's only my own skill that was the difference and I work harder to diminish that discrepancy.  It's that knowledge and hope that keeps me coming back, like the weekend hack golfer who only needs to hit one good shot in his last round to get him back on the course the next weekend.

I fear that is all coming to an end.  IMO if foiling is successful, it will only be the pros and those with extraordinary means and time that will be winning regattas.  I will, in affect, not really be there with them on the line.   I won't repeat ad nauseum all the reasons.  Our previous class president, Bob Hodges, articulated all the concerns very well, ranging from costs, insurance concerns, to the physical limitations of a large majority classes most active members.

I respect those who hold a different opinion.  I knew and accepted the tribulations of joining a developmental class when I started.  In fact the evolving nature of the class was one of the attractive aspects.  Like many A-cat sailors, I'm a tinkerer by nature and always looking for a better way.  I am also fortunate to have financial means, above many of my competitors, that allows me participate in the class I love.  But I would never want that to be the reason I might finish better than others.

Many point to the Moth as an example of how foiling not only did not harm, but in fact, improved a class.  I would argue that it is a flawed analogy.  The Moth class, save a few pockets of activity, was an all but dead class prior to the advent of foiling.  I live close to one of the historic hot beds of classic Moth sailing, Elizabeth City NC.  I remember as a youth watching swarms of the boats compete on a regular basis only to see it completely die by the late 70's.  The A class, in contrast, is a thriving class that has only grown in the past decade.

I may sound like the proverbial black smith bemoaning the appearance of the automobile, and I hope that I am wrong.  Unfortunately, I fear I am not.

See you on the starting line soon.   Maybe......

 



#64 Chris O

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 04:41 PM

Yes, obsolescence is always a risk, hell, it's pretty much guaranteed on a long enough time line for any boat.

 

 

Interesting that you would gush about techno changes at hyper-speed for one incredibly long paragraph... and then dismiss it as "guaranteed on a long enough time line for any boat." moment of reality.

 

If it can come that fast, it can easily go away just as fast, if not faster. I'm sure that's what you meant to say. An apt cliché would be... If you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

 

Entertain that model in this spendy class and you just swallowed a poison pill. Make two classes and let the pill poppers do what they must.

 

ZTH nailed it with his observation, "Adding cost and complexity might not help that.  Look at windsurfing.  When windsurfing was huge, boards were slow, heavy, and cheap.  The sport was huge.  As the boards got more physical, faster, more expensive, more unstable, and harder to use.....  The sport started to die.  Now it is a shadow of what it once was.  Speed+cost+complexity+difficulty of use often means better racing for the few that go along at the expense of the many who decide to bail out."



#65 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:05 PM

How many fatalities with cars, planes ? how many with foils ?

 

 

Let's ask another question then, shall we?

 

Would you be willing to sustain a major brain debilitation because of a lack of a helmet in a sport where they are easily available?

 

No, I didn't think so.

 

I don't know if you have kids, but if you did... would you allow one of them to take a chance on a lifetime injury simply because you were looking to make a point?

 

Again... No, I didn't think so.

 

Up the speed and the danger factors are upped, as well.

 

Maybe you saw the young woman snowboarder in the Olympics who took a plant and smashed-in the back of her helmet when she made contact with the snow? She, thankfully, walked away, but think about the possible injury should she have not been mandated by the insurers and the organizing body, to have the helmet in place prior to competition?

 

I love the obtuse aspects of the interaction, T-Cat, but you are simply being ignorant of reality.

So, following your logic I guess you prevent your kids from doing any sports as risks are involved.

Also, you should not drive a car, take a plane and stay home, but that also involves risks :)



#66 NacramanUK

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:39 PM

How do I block Chris O?



#67 Tcatman

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:59 PM

Entertain that model in this spendy class and you just swallowed a poison pill. Make two classes and let the pill poppers do what they must.

Chris O...

So... who gets to stay and keep the name  of the A class.... the pill poppers or the party poopers.   (couldn't resist the p's)

 

The Tornado Class went through a similar battle.   ISAF demanded a spin boat for the Olympic Cat. The rank and file of the class voted NO.... the boat is great as is...we like the sloop.... tell the man to shove it..    The top guns in the class... said OK...we will start a new class.... Oh and by the way... ISAF will approve US for the olympic cat... Presto....The class folded its hand.... and the Tornado Class with Olympic Standing added the spin...  and the NEW class was the Classic Tornado...   Which promptly died as a racing class because the core racers, the sailors who show up for worlds and run things  took on the new challenge.... (AND it was the olympic cat.)

 

OK.. ...there is no ISAF overlord and 6 ring circus to consider.   But... if the top guys move to the second class...What leads you to believe that the class non flying A will maintain the energy and not peter out in two years as the boats age and the development slows to a crawl.   The large number of Tornado sailors who voted no to the spin were not able to sustain a class without the olympic guys driving things.     It seems to me, that what is valuable is the name and heritage of the A class... which is annually affirmed by the top sailors (pro and Am) who show up and support it and drive the energy ..... So, I think you need both...    I dont' see how a split works in the long run if the top guns continue the move to  full foiling.  

 

How do you see the politics working out here?  i don't see a path.with two independent classes.



#68 Thing1

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:44 PM

Lets admit the process has been a shambles and learn from that.  What is clearly needed is a process that will get the class from here to a vote on foiling (or non foiling) rules at the next worlds and then to the general membership.

 

I think that requires the class leadership group to outline the steps they are going to take over the next 18 months. That's not going to be an easy task and it relies on busy people, but if it doesn't happen under some structure, there will just be another set of ad-hoc proposals come to the next AGM.

 

Two independent classes won't work, one will die, but it is important to keep the "classic" fleet engaged and relevant. These are expensive bits of kit, still great to sail and will be for another 10 years.



#69 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:50 PM

Have you ever sailed a moth Chris?  Or any foiling boat?

 

No to the Moth and yes, several times, to the any foiling boat. So now that the thrust of your query has been handled, what's the point except to be a seriously unpolished "journalist" who sets-up ridiculous straw man arguments in order to avoid a direct ad hominem attack?

 

Please Clean, get some standards in your manner and stop with the nonsensical tripe.

.

 

If you have not sailed a moth, then what boat exactly have you been on, and did it send you through this mythical "Cheese Slicer" at 20+ knots that you claim will end all foiling forever?

 

You accuse me of straw man arguments immediately after you create one.  Name your foiler and tell us how dangerous the cheese slicer was.

 

And quit calling me a journalist.  Save that shit for someone who cares, or who pretends that titles matter.



#70 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:50 PM

NO interview was most interesting. I intend to get a  foiler and I retain the following lessons:

- preset of the T rudders before sailing (like AC72)

- control the main foil with a simple line

- J foils are not stable, better chose V or L foils

- still difficult to know how to insert a decent foil from the top (having to tilt the cat on the beach is not the most convenient solution)

 

From the discussion and other videos:

- the Osprey is incredibly stable but I am not sure the wand is the best solution for multis

- the twist grip may be interesting, but to control the T rudder. The system seems a bit complicated though

- the hull does not matter anymore so any cat can be modified

- a canting mast is easy to do and can increase the performance.

 

Any other ideas ?



#71 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 08:53 PM

I used to ride Observed Motorcycle Trials at a serious level and back then, nobody wore helmets 

 

Holy shit dude - how old ARE you?  I think I am done with this argument.  I could never get my point across with my grandfather either.



#72 Ron Roth

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:47 PM

A somewhat dissenting opinion.....

I have raced beach cats of all forms and sizes for 38 years and A-cats exclusively for the past 12.  I have owned 9 A-cats.  Ten if you count the one that I recently cut down for my young son. I travel extensively up and down the east coast of the US, up to 14,000 miles/year, to attend regattas and support the class I love.  I am a disciple of the A-cat.  I tell everyone that once you get on an A-cat, you will be spoiled for all other boats.  Admittedly though, I have never sailed a moth.  I have raced in other wonderful classes that I thought, on the strength of the boat alone, would never die, only to see them fade into oblivion.  The 18sq is a perfect example.

Aside from the boat itself, one of the most attractive aspects of the class, at least for me, is the opportunity to compete against some of the greatest sailors in the world.   Although I might not be there with them at the finish, I am there with them at the starting line.  I sail around the course knowing that if I've prepared my boat, practiced all I can and sail smart, there's always a chance I can be there with them somewhere on the course.   I know that when I am not there with them at the finish, it's only my own skill that was the difference and I work harder to diminish that discrepancy.  It's that knowledge and hope that keeps me coming back, like the weekend hack golfer who only needs to hit one good shot in his last round to get him back on the course the next weekend.

I fear that is all coming to an end.  IMO if foiling is successful, it will only be the pros and those with extraordinary means and time that will be winning regattas.  I will, in affect, not really be there with them on the line.   I won't repeat ad nauseum all the reasons.  Our previous class president, Bob Hodges, articulated all the concerns very well, ranging from costs, insurance concerns, to the physical limitations of a large majority classes most active members.

I respect those who hold a different opinion.  I knew and accepted the tribulations of joining a developmental class when I started.  In fact the evolving nature of the class was one of the attractive aspects.  Like many A-cat sailors, I'm a tinkerer by nature and always looking for a better way.  I am also fortunate to have financial means, above many of my competitors, that allows me participate in the class I love.  But I would never want that to be the reason I might finish better than others.

Many point to the Moth as an example of how foiling not only did not harm, but in fact, improved a class.  I would argue that it is a flawed analogy.  The Moth class, save a few pockets of activity, was an all but dead class prior to the advent of foiling.  I live close to one of the historic hot beds of classic Moth sailing, Elizabeth City NC.  I remember as a youth watching swarms of the boats compete on a regular basis only to see it completely die by the late 70's.  The A class, in contrast, is a thriving class that has only grown in the past decade.

I may sound like the proverbial black smith bemoaning the appearance of the automobile, and I hope that I am wrong.  Unfortunately, I fear I am not.

See you on the starting line soon.   Maybe......

Tracy, you and Bob Hodges have very good points . I just got my horse and buggy finally going , now i have to buy a Ferrari or inject that nag with steroids . At 60 , this can be disheartening ,even to some young dudes . Maybe its time for Islamorada B Fleet , or maybe I should be put out to pasture :lol:    I do love sailing this boat , and have made a lot of good friends !



#73 SimonN

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 09:55 PM

The best quote on this is a new one by Nathan of facebook this morning

 

It's a shame the class voted against allowing us to open up the class rules to allow more exploration of foiling. Looks like we will have to do things the hard way for the next few years.........

 

Nathan is wrong about one thing. I have now realised that there is a mechanism which could get rules changes through far quicker, through an Extraordinary World General Meeting which is provided for in the constitution. However, before we can go there, we need to get consensus on what the rules should be. Whatever those rules are, they need to provide for steady state foiling that doesn't require you to be a super star to sail. The rules need to ensure costs don't get out of control and that iut doesn't add a new level of complexity to building the boats. The boats also need to be easy to handle on shore and launching.

 

If we can get those right and agree the new rules, we should be able to do something within a year.

 

And for the final time (maybe), we need to be absolutely clear as to why we need to do something. Foiling is now a reality. Read what  SailingKid says on the worlds thread. The speed differences are huge. The problem is that the current rules have created a boat with really nasty characteristics that need world class sailors to control. Doing nothing leaves us with these boats. Although I advocate better foiling, I would rather see a rewrite of the rules to do away with all foiling than leave things as they are.



#74 sosoomii

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:21 PM

A rule change may be wise but why not give it some time to see what improvements can be had under the existing rules? No one has yet built a platform or rig for a dedicated foiler. Rushing through a rule change to give the AC pro's something to practise on could be disastrous when they all move on to flying Phantoms next year.

#75 fireball

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 10:22 PM

Yes - an Extraordinary WGM must be called if 3 national associations request it. This seems to be the best option now that foilers are winning every race.

The alternative is to waste more time and money developing boats that are based on rule workarounds rather than good design.

A simple rule change would be to replace 750mm with 500mm in Rule 8.1. This could be voted on as soon as possible.

It would allow the main foils to generate much more lift and the rudder foils to be used solely for pitch control.

Waiting around for the committee to come up with a proposal isn't going to work. The committee has had plenty of time to consider foiling and hasn't supported it. That's their prerogative, but their view is looking outdated and contrary to the wishes of many of their members.

#76 krash

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:07 PM

I had a fantastic view from the back of the fleet last week - Here is my take that I posted on another forum.

 

In my opinion T-foil rudders and flexi-J foil boards are here to stay. This week they were proven faster in both light and heavy air conditions. From talking to Glenn and Nathan, I think we are going to see more development towards longer/higher aspect rudders and deeper J-foils. This will allow the "foils" to stay in the water longer when going through waves/chop and also increase the stability of the platform.

The video and pics showed lots of crashes, but I also saw lots of stable flights for several hundred yards or more. There were also just as many crashes by non-foiling boats. I capsized four races in a row. It was blowing 15-20 with gusts approaching 30 at times. The wipeouts were pretty spectacular, and the leeward gate roundings were exciting at times to say the least...

Realistically the A-cat is going to develop into a boat that is more physically demanding to sail at the top level (but what boat isn't). Currently the sailors are using their weight to stabilize the boat and that involves quickly shifting your weight fore/aft and aggressively trimming to adjust ride height.

Personally I think leaving the existing rules in place and allowing the well-funded teams to continue to explore all of the possibilities is the right path. Somebody is going to come up with a solution that works for all of us. 

We are entering an exciting phase of the A-class once again. It wasn't the end of the world when the class weight dropped to 75kg, carbon masts were introduced, or surface piercing bows were introduced. These were all improvements that revolutionized and reinvigorated our class. That's part of what makes the A-Class so exciting.

The sky isn't falling, that noise is innovation knocking at the door once again.

-Mike


#77 branchingfactor

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:13 PM

But again, go back to the Moths; these 60 lb. craft are incredibly robust. 

 

You need to spend more time around Moths if you think they're "incredibly robust".  At the last two Moth regattas, boats were breaking left and right.  Broken mast. Broken boom vang.  Multiple broke wing bars. Ripped tramps. Broken foils.



#78 Doug Lord

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:18 PM

I had a fantastic view from the back of the fleet last week - Here is my take that I posted on another forum.

 

In my opinion T-foil rudders and flexi-J foil boards are here to stay. This week they were proven faster in both light and heavy air conditions. From talking to Glenn and Nathan, I think we are going to see more development towards longer/higher aspect rudders and deeper J-foils. This will allow the "foils" to stay in the water longer when going through waves/chop and also increase the stability of the platform.

The video and pics showed lots of crashes, but I also saw lots of stable flights for several hundred yards or more. There were also just as many crashes by non-foiling boats. I capsized four races in a row. It was blowing 15-20 with gusts approaching 30 at times. The wipeouts were pretty spectacular, and the leeward gate roundings were exciting at times to say the least...

Realistically the A-cat is going to develop into a boat that is more physically demanding to sail at the top level (but what boat isn't). Currently the sailors are using their weight to stabilize the boat and that involves quickly shifting your weight fore/aft and aggressively trimming to adjust ride height.

Personally I think leaving the existing rules in place and allowing the well-funded teams to continue to explore all of the possibilities is the right path. Somebody is going to come up with a solution that works for all of us. 

We are entering an exciting phase of the A-class once again. It wasn't the end of the world when the class weight dropped to 75kg, carbon masts were introduced, or surface piercing bows were introduced. These were all improvements that revolutionized and reinvigorated our class. That's part of what makes the A-Class so exciting.

The sky isn't falling, that noise is innovation knocking at the door once again.

-Mike

 

Well said , Mike!



#79 BalticBandit

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 11:24 PM

 

Thanks, macca! It doesn't seem to me that the "uptip" foils would work too well if the windward foil was left down-so it seems they would need to have a retraction system. Some A Class guys have said that retracting and deploying the foil every tack or gybe adds too much to the workload. Do you think this can be overcome by a different method or?

Doesn't Groupama tie the board into the trapeze somehow to make it simpler?

Not quite, on GA the crew runs to windward and pulls down on a handle suspended from the trap line, it pulls the windward foil up using the body weight of the crew vs arm strength. No, simply hooking it to the trap does not work, unless you can be sure the crew would have all his weight on the wire, after each and every tack or gybe. Linked like that, it would create a pretty locked down dependency between crew and board position.

 

B, great posts-thanks for the input....

Doug B just called you an idiot for making invalid comparisons.  And you don't even get that. 

 

Talkl about a muppet with no skin in the game having a field day - you are a first class idiot.   Particularly telling Simon that he's wrong about twist grips on AoA of Main foils.

 

You are really putting yoru narcicistic self forward here.

 

Shut the fuck up

 

 

And Blunted..  Stop encouraging this idiot.  You know he's an idiot.  You know that about all he's good for is as someone to go dig up videos on the intertubes.  

 

Doug EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE is laughing at you behind your back.   FUCK OFF



#80 atefooterz

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:50 AM

^ Wow someones rent boy did not cum thru to create such an explosion of man unlove.



#81 P Flados

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 01:31 AM

Doug EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE is laughing at you behind your back.   FUCK OFF

 

Based on the numerous posts telling you to do what you preach (S**t the f**k up), I would say that you may be in error on this point.



#82 Phil S

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 01:50 AM

There is absoutely no point in connecting a tiller twist mechanism to the main foil. If its connected to the rudder foil it will function exactly the same. Once the hull is is out of the water the relative angle of attack between the two foils is all that matters, adjusting one has the same affect as adjusting the other. I think some ACats have already used twist grip rudder control just like moths do, I think at least one of the CCats did also. 

In no case is the degree of control any more than a trim function, its imposible to adjust it quickly enough for waves.

 

WRT to Off Your Rocker the foils used were very early John Ilett sections (John or Blunted might enlighten us) well out of date by today's moth standards. The spans, profiles, sections and the flap % are completely different these days and the performance of moths has increased significantly, taking off earlier and achieving higher speeds.

 

One of the major benefit of flapped secions is the ability to change the section form flap down, high camber, increased AoA for low speed take off, right through to flap up, low camber low AoA for high speed once the hull is airborne, to have the wand do this automatically makes total sense for a single hander.



#83 SimonN

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:05 AM

Phil

 

While I accept and understand your liking of the wand and flap approach, I have a number of key concerns.

 

1. The biggest pain when I sailed Moths was keeping the wand and associated mechanisms in good working order. While I am sure it is possible to make it more robust than the Moth system, I am still very concerned about the vulnerability.

2. There have been a number of systems that have the wand attached to the top of the centreboard. I have always believed there is some benefit of the wand being ahead, plus I suspect that by attaching to the foil you reduce the opportunity to make all the adjustments that make a modern Moth so good to sail.

3. Wands and flaps add a significant cost over, say, the system that Groupama/Flying Phantom use.

4. With 2 hulls and 2 foils, it seems to me that at some point, you either want to raise the windward board and/or reduce the lift in order to reduce drag and increase righting moment. While some clever thought might come up with ways of doing both, isn't it an unnecessary complication. 

5. It seems to me that both Groupama and the Flying Phantom have more than enough flight stability for what is needed. While I can see that in terms of outright speed and comfort, a wand/flap system might have advantages, isn't all that we need is stable flight on a level playing field regarding the rules? In a class where wands and flaps are allowed, I accept that it will always be better than other options. However, given a level playing field where nobdy can use them, and taking into account above, what will it give the A's that other systems won't?



#84 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:13 AM

My problem with the idea of wand is simple, it must work very well on flat sea but may be hell in chops.

AC72s, Groupama, F Phantom work well without, so...



#85 Dingleberry

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:46 AM

Can someone enlighten me as to what is the situation with the cassettes and how they were deemed legal? Are they legal beyond the worlds? It seems as though so long as they are allowed then most options / foil shapes (so long as they adhere to other eg. 750 rules) are possible with some lateral thinking. 



#86 Phil S

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:10 AM

My problem with the idea of wand is simple, it must work very well on flat sea but may be hell in chops.

AC72s, Groupama, F Phantom work well without, so...

Wands work fine on moths up to a wave troughs big enough to fit a moth into. We do not reach that limit very often but boats still finish races. I do not think any of the cats quoted have sailed in waves even that big let alone something of the same scale as their boats. 



#87 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:14 AM

But again, go back to the Moths; these 60 lb. craft are incredibly robust. 

 

You need to spend more time around Moths if you think they're "incredibly robust".  At the last two Moth regattas, boats were breaking left and right.  Broken mast. Broken boom vang.  Multiple broke wing bars. Ripped tramps. Broken foils.

 

Foils break when they hit shit at high speeds, and there was a pile of wing bars that were under specced (and replaced under warranty).  I spend an awful lot of time around moths and if my 230 lbs. can't break them when I crash, they're pretty damned robust for the speeds and weights involved.  You can break anything if you pull on the wrong strings or fail to ease the right ones, in any case, Mach 2 is doing something right because they are building like 4 or 5 a week and are months and months backordered!



#88 teknologika

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:48 AM

My problem with the idea of wand is simple, it must work very well on flat sea but may be hell in chops.

AC72s, Groupama, F Phantom work well without, so...

 

One of the key advantages that a wand and flap system has is the number of corrections per minute that the system can make to the foil. It is the high number of corrections per minute that allows foiling boats to be much safer, and sailed much faster. The only problem that the moth style system run into is when heading downwind in short sharp chop when the wand movement goes "out of phase" with the waves coming in the opposite direction.

 

If you are interested in "Rocker" the C class that did use wands, there is an excellent paper "Alpha and Rocker - Two Design Approaches that led to the Successful Challenge for the 2007 International C-Class Catamaran Championship" by Steve Killing available on his website.



#89 Phil S

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:22 AM

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=7UXR_RvWUbw

 

This day was about the limit for moths. Still racing hard, only minor breakages, and some bruises. 

 

The wand does all the up and down control to follow the wave surface and keep the foils in the water, well mostly. Its hard to see how alphabet foils would cope with only weight control.



#90 rantifarian

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:43 AM

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=7UXR_RvWUbw

 

This day was about the limit for moths. Still racing hard, only minor breakages, and some bruises. 

 

The wand does all the up and down control to follow the wave surface and keep the foils in the water, well mostly. Its hard to see how alphabet foils would cope with only weight control.

How much of the struggle at the yeppoon nationals was due to outright wind, and how much of it was due to the shortish wave pattern that yeppoon gets in a NE breeze? A class will have a vastly different action through waves, with 4 foils a lot further apart than a moth



#91 Phil S

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 07:27 AM

Yeppoon was not that windy. One shot shows Josh getting too high on a crest, crashing, submerging and saving the boat from capsize so its possibly under 20. I was laid up with heat stress that day so do not know for sure.

I do not know how an A would go, the waves seemed to be very short on other days and I imagine 18ft might almost span between crests, if foiling I imagine that some of the four foils would be in different parts of the wave and applying lots of stress to the platform. I would rather be trusing a wand/flap to keep the boat in the water than the slide sideways method exhibited by the AC72s, Group A and the As at the worlds.

Note the moths are all foiling to windward off the start, the good guys are still foil tacking and they are all still driving hard downwind. Dave Lister sailed a 4 lap club race last saturday in a soft 10kt NE and claimed his hull never touched the water. I really think all the cat foilers have a lot to learn from moths. It seems daft to totally discount the moth technology.



#92 BalticBandit

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:02 AM

Well the vid is interesting particularly a 1:33 where you can see two boats go by bobbing up and down from wand control.  There clearly is some lag behind the crest of the wave but not that much - obviously enough to keep the foils from ventilating.

 

One of the challenges though I think is that having two t-foils in the water means you have a potentially dramatic change in lift if a gust hits and the windward foil breaks free.   Furthermore its hard to heel a multi-hull platform to weather intentionally, which means that  any heel is going to have a negative VMG and negative RM effect - unless you go to the notion of having the foils adjusted so that if you lift the weather hull enough, you generate negative lift enough to create addtional RM.

 

Doug EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE is laughing at you behind your back.   FUCK OFF

 

Based on the numerous posts telling you to do what you preach (S**t the f**k up), I would say that you may be in error on this point.

hmm I don't see all those.. And I do see lots of the posts telling Dougy he's full of it



#93 Bing Bimbo

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 09:12 AM

The video footage being referred to is 5 minutes long and in it a number of foilers are seen leaping out of the water and some have interpreted the video and said the foiling A's are out of control and a real handful to sail.
Those shots are in the video because they look cool the other 80 odd percent of the time those same boats are sailing and foiling along just fine.
The agile crew may be rewarded but the average guy may still find the boats both faster and easier to sail.
The rules as they are provide sufficient lift and if the A is jumping out too much like NO sometimes was in stronger winds it's easy to reduce lift to make it safer.
IMO the rule proposals weren't properly thought through because one without the other made no sense to me at all and get rid of the insert from the top rule but put in a practicality restriction so you don't need a 6 man shore crew and a crane to launch your boat
As it stands right now there is nothing broken so there is nothing to fix and also the only votes get cast by each association and so the possibility might exist of a majority of A cat sailors may want this but it needs 2/3rds of country associations presnt to vote that way and clearly this time that didn't happen.

#94 Sailabout

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:01 PM

I think you run both at the same event?
Call it classic A or whatever then see where the crumbs fall
If the boat gets very physical and old guys cant compete that usually means younger guys will take it up
Is anyone over 75kg compeditive on moth? Anyone under 90kg compeditive in a Finn?
If its relativly expensive and very physical and you need to be 75kg you have certainly limited the market.
Maybe the Classic A Masters and GrandMasters will be big events?

As for the controls, just a bit if fluff for the class to sort out, why say foils and then say we will make it impossible to use them DOH!

Yes I think they are here to stay



#95 IC Nutter

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:17 PM

Just a naive question about the foils setup, I know these foils are being retro fitted to existing boats, but it looks to me like if you were to design an A specifically for foils, you might want to move the rig a lot further forward so that you can get more longitudinal separation between the rudder and main foils. Currently the longitudinal stability looks a bit soft.  There's 18 feet of boat there that you could use, but most of it is way forward of the lifting foils with the current setup. It would mean a change of aesthetic though. Is there any discussion about this?



#96 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 02:25 PM


Is anyone over 75kg compeditive on moth? 

 

Most of the top ten Moth sailors at a very light air Worlds were over 75 kg.  



#97 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 03:07 PM

I had a fantastic view from the back of the fleet last week - Here is my take that I posted on another forum.

 

In my opinion T-foil rudders and flexi-J foil boards are here to stay. This week they were proven faster in both light and heavy air conditions. From talking to Glenn and Nathan, I think we are going to see more development towards longer/higher aspect rudders and deeper J-foils. This will allow the "foils" to stay in the water longer when going through waves/chop and also increase the stability of the platform.

The video and pics showed lots of crashes, but I also saw lots of stable flights for several hundred yards or more. There were also just as many crashes by non-foiling boats. I capsized four races in a row. It was blowing 15-20 with gusts approaching 30 at times. The wipeouts were pretty spectacular, and the leeward gate roundings were exciting at times to say the least...

Realistically the A-cat is going to develop into a boat that is more physically demanding to sail at the top level (but what boat isn't). Currently the sailors are using their weight to stabilize the boat and that involves quickly shifting your weight fore/aft and aggressively trimming to adjust ride height.

Personally I think leaving the existing rules in place and allowing the well-funded teams to continue to explore all of the possibilities is the right path. Somebody is going to come up with a solution that works for all of us. 

We are entering an exciting phase of the A-class once again. It wasn't the end of the world when the class weight dropped to 75kg, carbon masts were introduced, or surface piercing bows were introduced. These were all improvements that revolutionized and reinvigorated our class. That's part of what makes the A-Class so exciting.

The sky isn't falling, that noise is innovation knocking at the door once again.

-Mike

 

Thanks Mike.  Don't you think it is a big waste of money and time to create foiling solutions based on poorly worded rules rather than sound engineering?  This is 2014.  It seems to me that "Stable flights of 100 yards or more" isn't a particularly proud achievement when a one-design cat and a 60 lb. moth can achieve stable flights through an entire race.

 

If the designs are getting made anyway and the foilers win every race anyway, why not make better foilers?  It's not like the A-Cat is at the leading edge of anything anymore, and the span rules and 'insert from top' rules are holding the boat back from stable, fun flight for everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

-confused.



#98 Sailabout

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:28 PM

i Clean

 

how much breeze to get yourself foiling?

 

Cheers

PS Re A class, better rules make better boats



#99 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 04:46 PM

10-12 knots @ 234 lbs.

 

 

i Clean

 

how much breeze to get yourself foiling?

 

Cheers

PS Re A class, better rules make better boats



#100 AClass USA 230

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:15 PM

Using the words Failure in the title of this thread and lack of leadership (as I have seen used in other posts) are in my opinion unfair to the class. We have excellent class leadership and have had for some time, that is why the class is still vibrant. We have 43 boats pre-registered for our North Americans already and that regatta is 3-1/2 months away.

There is a whole new set of performance data to evaluate that I know and trust our class leadership will be reviewing carefully from the perspective of the class deciding to not make any changes in the current rules for now.

In my experience, our class leaders always looks at the big picture to try to keep the boat as affordable and user friendly as possible while still moving forward at a reasonable development pace. I am still excited about the prospect of sailing a foiling A-Class. I'm not excited about trying to manage a boat that requires bottom insertion of the daggerboards. I truly hope we can find an alternate solution.

Food for thought - A couple of months ago, Nathan Outteridge stated that he felt the class should probably not go down the foiling path, now he has changed his position. That's OK with me and I appreciate what he and TNZ have done for our class in showing us what is possible. Exciting times indeed.




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