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A Class Fail? The Future of the A's


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#701 Tcatman

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:50 AM

 


 

However, it seems we are stuck with an impasse that I can see no way out of and as Sonofabitch points out, rule 8 is what we have to work with and as i cannot see any way of getting the 2/3rds majority needed to change it, we had better get used to the fact. 

Simon.... What is your best guess as to the rule to be voted on at the next worlds?....  

 

Sounds to me that  it remains a voting issue in September 2015 (that is basically, Two US racing seasons of no decisions) and once again...  nothing happens.... So you move to  2016...When you couple this with the ISAF approval time....we are talking years..   So, as boats age and become non competitive in any configuration...the sailors drop out rather then upgrade to a rule very likely to change. ... So,with attrition and changing attitudes  eventually the voting gets to the 2/3rds number and  approves a cost effective foil rule.   (that you predict will be or could be submitted today)

Why is this a sane move?

How many sailors are in Italy for the Sept 2015 worlds with a cassette systems and a full foiling solution?.... More or less then the  turnout for this Junes Europeans?.

Is turnout and participation of huge importance to the A class leadership.... or are other factors more important.



#702 Lars Schrøder D13

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:28 AM

I am not sure that changing the rules means that much - the problem for the class is that flying means that everything potentially has to be reengineered and developed all over again.

 

This leads to some years where new bits and pieces will show up that’s faster than the designs made 3 month ago.

 

And it has been like this since 1967, but the changes now is that the boat will look very different (perhaps, nobody knows, but it would be a coincidence if the current designs are the best for flying).

 

It is possible to fly within the current rules, it is possible to design l or v boards that do not breach the rules and make flying potentially more stable than the j or c or x boards (even though the solution with a cassette is a little more complicated - but its not that bad, you will have to move the centreboardcase outwards anyway).

 

So sailors will leave the class because engineers will take over for some years or decades, while the sailors will go a have fun in a other class. Changing the rules won’t stop this move

 

And I don’t see any ways to solve this problem (if it is a problem).

 

See you all (and anyone wants to buy a fast Vision?)

 

Lars



#703 SimonN

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:06 AM

 

 


 

However, it seems we are stuck with an impasse that I can see no way out of and as Sonofabitch points out, rule 8 is what we have to work with and as i cannot see any way of getting the 2/3rds majority needed to change it, we had better get used to the fact. 

Simon.... What is your best guess as to the rule to be voted on at the next worlds?....  

 

Sounds to me that  it remains a voting issue in September 2015 (that is basically, Two US racing seasons of no decisions) and once again...  nothing happens.... So you move to  2016...When you couple this with the ISAF approval time....we are talking years..   So, as boats age and become non competitive in any configuration...the sailors drop out rather then upgrade to a rule very likely to change. ... So,with attrition and changing attitudes  eventually the voting gets to the 2/3rds number and  approves a cost effective foil rule.   (that you predict will be or could be submitted today)

Why is this a sane move?

How many sailors are in Italy for the Sept 2015 worlds with a cassette systems and a full foiling solution?.... More or less then the  turnout for this Junes Europeans?.

Is turnout and participation of huge importance to the A class leadership.... or are other factors more important.

Oh for a crystal ball and psychic powers!

 

I honestly don't know that will will be in a position to gain a 2/3rds majority for any rule change regarding foiling in the near or even medium term future. And yes, i have been saying that the changes will take years, unless we see some agreement that means the exec calls an extraordinary meeting for a vote, which i cannot see happening.

 

I cannot comment purely on cassette systems because some people might come up with solutions we haven't yet thought of, but I think there will be significantly more full foilers at the 2015 worlds than at the upcoming Europeans. This is because I know of a fair number of people who won't be going to the Euros because they are waiting to see what happens while they intend to get foilers for the 2015 worlds. Glenn Ashby is rumoured to be working with Exploder who will have foiling boats at the Euros, and I assume that DNA will as well. With at least 2 projects under way here in Oz but which won't be ready for the Euros, I think there will be a reasonable amount of choice for the 2015 season. I also expect the foiling to be pretty stable.

 

Lars

 

I see very little difference from what we see in the class already. Since I joined the class, both masts and sails have changed and all the boats that were available to me were outdated within months of joining the class. I personally don't think masts will change and sails change most years anyway. As for development of platforms, are you really saying that you don't expect any development if we don't go foiling?  Even without foiling, we would have seen new designs over the next couple of years that would have, in all likelihood, have made current designs obsolete. That's the nature of development classes. It seems to me that people think that if the mode of sailing is the same then the change isn't as great, but a boat is either competitive or it isn't, and the one thing we can be certain of is even without foiling, current boats would have become obsolete anyway.



#704 Lars Schrøder D13

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:09 AM

Simon - the a-class is a development class and as I also writes it been like this for decades. Lately the competition has been very good and all the topboats performed equally and with small differences in speed. This changes now, because it will be what happens underneath the water that decides the outcome of the races (that was already the case in New Zealand). And what happens under the water has to be developed, because it’s a unknown territory (even the ACs are fumbling around..)

 

The development is the nature of a development class, but development might not lead to many boats on the starting line. Whether the latest development is a problem for the class will be seen on the numbers of participants at regattas in the coming years.  

 

And that's just the way it is, time can't be reversed. And it wouldnt have helped anyway.

 

For me personally I think flying looks pretty cool and would love to do it myself (the Flying Phantom is so cool), but I find it hard to do 3 or 4 updates on foil packages and especially being beaten by miles at major races, because I am not up to date anyway...I am a good sailor but a very bad engineer;-)



#705 schafseckel

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:06 PM

one more project:

 Glenn Ashby is rumoured to be working with Exploder who will have foiling boats at the Euros, and I assume that DNA will as well.With at least 2 projects under way here in Oz but which won't be ready for the Euros, I think there will be a reasonable amount of choice for the 2015 season. I also expect the foiling to be pretty stable.



#706 Sonofabitch

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:57 PM

^^ what's not to like about the current rush of development?

#707 Foghorn77

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:21 AM

Looks like, in that vid., he had to head up and stay higher to get it foiling and stay there,than when he was Archimedean. I thought when it came up on foil it was supposed to go faster and deeper.



#708 Scarecrow

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:38 AM

I don't think you'll find they go deeper, they just have a better VMG.



#709 Rawhide

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:43 AM

The guys foiling in Aus are going significantly deeper.



#710 Scarecrow

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:07 AM

dam it that's twice I've been wrong this year.



#711 Catfan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:30 AM

On March 31 Lallo Petrucci wrote

Dear Landy

.....Failing any decision on my submission, I will have no other choice but to bring to the Europeans some radical innovations (see the attached projects whose you have been previously informed).

Attached Files



#712 Sonofabitch

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:58 AM

Scary!

#713 Börni

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

well, bring it on!

#714 SimonN

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:51 PM

On March 31 Lallo Petrucci wrote

Dear Landy

.....Failing any decision on my submission, I will have no other choice but to bring to the Europeans some radical innovations (see the attached projects whose you have been previously informed).

PMSL!

 

Why should we be at all concerned by those ideas? To start with the Everfly isn't class legal because it goes inside the 750mm rule. As for the other idea, I have no problem with it because it is little different from the cassette idea we have already seen. However, I won't be rushing to copy it. To start with, the drag from the multiple winglets will be significantly more than a single wing. I believe that as each set of winglets get close to teh surface, you will end up with a moment when they suddenly lose lift as they ventilate and the boat will drop back down. I really cannot see this controlling flight one bit.

 

So, I will second the motion, Bring it on!



#715 fireball

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:03 PM

It's a very strange way to implement the cassette as well. A longer thinner cassette wouldn't affect the strength of the hulls as much. You retract the foils by lifting the cassette out of the hull and then turning it 90 degrees to get the foils through the gap.

#716 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:43 PM

one more project:

 Glenn Ashby is rumoured to be working with Exploder who will have foiling boats at the Euros, and I assume that DNA will as well.With at least 2 projects under way here in Oz but which won't be ready for the Euros, I think there will be a reasonable amount of choice for the 2015 season. I also expect the foiling to be pretty stable.

I also see Dominic pushing his foiling D3.  Both Andy and Dominic are pushing foiling today.



#717 rantifarian

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:43 PM

It's a very strange way to implement the cassette as well. A longer thinner cassette wouldn't affect the strength of the hulls as much. You retract the foils by lifting the cassette out of the hull and then turning it 90 degrees to get the foils through the gap.

Looking at it another way, if your cassette is weakening the hull too much, it needs to become a structural member between two essentially independent pieces of the hull. Could be interesting launching in the surf



#718 TornadoSail2016

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:44 PM

On March 31 Lallo Petrucci wrote

Dear Landy

.....Failing any decision on my submission, I will have no other choice but to bring to the Europeans some radical innovations (see the attached projects whose you have been previously informed).

???



#719 SimonN

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:12 PM

 

On March 31 Lallo Petrucci wrote

Dear Landy

.....Failing any decision on my submission, I will have no other choice but to bring to the Europeans some radical innovations (see the attached projects whose you have been previously informed).

???

Lallo has "threatened' the class. Basically, he has "insisted" that the class brings in rules that he believes will prevent foiling. Failure to do so will lead to him turning up at the Euros with one or both of the ideas he has shown. His proposal is

 

 

8.3 Daggerboads have to be straight or curved provided that the radius of curvature is constant.


The points of my proposal are the following::

1 ) Daggerboards must have a constant radius of curvature
2 ) The radius must not be less of 1.45 m

These two new rules shall be in force only for next European A class Championship, scheduled in July in France.

 

 

There are, however, 3 real problems with his "proposals". First, they would not prevent foiling. Second, I believe that the radius chosen would ban many current boats. Finally, there is no way that the rules can be changed in the timelines he demands. It goes against the constitution of the class. There is a process that needs to be followed.

 

If Lallo wants this rule change, he needs to get 3 national associations to propose it as a rule change, an extraordinary world general meeting needs to be called at which there needs to be a 2/3rds majority of country votes in order for it to be then sent out to the members for a full vote. If 2/3rds vote in favour of a change, it then needs to be referred to ISAF for their approval.

 

At the moment, Lallo cannot even get over the first hurdle, getting 3 countries to support his proposal. Landy (and others) have been working tirelessly to see if there are any proposals out there that would gain the required support. It seems that only France and Italy are interested in proposing new rules that ban foiling. On the other hand, while there is enough support to get another vote on changing rule 8 to be more foiling friendly, there still seems to be the problem of getting the 2/3rds country votes in favour so it can then move to the next stage.

 

So, Lallo is trying to force the hand of the class in a totally unconstitutional manner, something I believe that every member of the class should be outraged by. We cannot have a manufacturer issuing threats against the class in an attempt to impose his vision on the class. Whichever side of the debate you are on, you should be equally outraged by his approach.



#720 juniordave nz

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:23 AM

Why would bimare issue such joke designs when it's not the 1st of April.

It makes them look like complete muppets.

I really do hope they are a joke, as they are quite funny.



#721 Chris O

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:09 AM

Why would bimare issue such joke designs when it's not the 1st of April.

It makes them look like complete muppets.

I really do hope they are a joke, as they are quite funny

 

 

...and what if they are simply goofy squiggles designed to tweak your limited capacity for strategic positioning in the greater argument, dave? If that is the case, then you've fallen for it... hook, line and sinker.

 

All you smug dudes might want to simply hang back for awhile and see what shakes out. It might surprise you.

 

.



#722 juniordave nz

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:50 AM

Or I could work on real developments for the class instead of trying to screw the process.



#723 Tcatman

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:28 AM

"screw the process"

 

I don't know.... I don't see much process...   I would think a fair process would start with published  recorded votes by class members in each country .  Process types like myself would  believe that Voting was a fair process to measure class position globally.  Certainly, I have seen nothing in the USA about voting on anything..

I have seen the french A Class recorded votes published on line..  What of the other Countries?

 

So... if the IACA class process remains private conversations among the elite...   I would want that process screwed.

 

My cursory read of the class documents do not preclude calls for recorded votes.   It just spells out the final process which effects rule changes.

How about a recorded vote world wide on the most basic question. Fly or No Fly.  (Some countries might like the chance to at least have ONE recorded vote on the core question.



#724 Catfan

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:47 AM

How about a recorded vote world wide on the most basic question. Fly or No Fly.  (Some countries might like the chance to at least have ONE recorded vote on the core question.

 

 This was actually the proposal addressed to the IACA Committee by Marco Gaeti, the Chairman of the Italian A class  association at the of February.

QUOTE (from the French A class association website)

Now we must take a decision: A Cat sailors want flying boat or not?
If the majority desires that, after a world ballot with IACA rules, we can remove all limits for centreboards and rudders, all it’s accepted.
Otherwise, if the majority votes in favour of conventional boat, we must change actually rules into a restrictive sense and anyway forbidden the fly.
When we study a law, the important thing is the principle and then we prepare rules to follow the original principle. During these years all boat builders have worked to
turn around the principle of rules 8.1 and 8.2.
We must resolve the issue ASAP.
UNQUOTE
Then let's have an informal (i.e. not according to the A class constitution) ballot among all class members: 
if the majority (50%+1) votes in favour of conventional boats,  the conventional boat wins FOR ALL and the flying gang goes out to constitute another class.
Otherwise if the majority votes in favour of the flying option, the foiling cat wins FOR ALL and the non flying gangs go out to constitute another class.
In both case the Technical Committe will be in charge to amend class rules accordingly (obviuosly afterwards modifications are to be approved by a FORMAL ballot).
There is no other way to exit from the deadlock  

 

t



#725 Lars Schrøder D13

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:19 AM

In Denmark 80% voted for flying



#726 erikM

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:57 AM

How about a recorded vote world wide on the most basic question. Fly or No Fly.  (Some countries might like the chance to at least have ONE recorded vote on the core question.

 

 This was actually the proposal addressed to the IACA Committee by Marco Gaeti, the Chairman of the Italian A class  association at the of February.

QUOTE (from the French A class association website)

Now we must take a decision: A Cat sailors want flying boat or not?
If the majority desires that, after a world ballot with IACA rules, we can remove all limits for centreboards and rudders, all it’s accepted.
Otherwise, if the majority votes in favour of conventional boat, we must change actually rules into a restrictive sense and anyway forbidden the fly.
When we study a law, the important thing is the principle and then we prepare rules to follow the original principle. During these years all boat builders have worked to
turn around the principle of rules 8.1 and 8.2.
We must resolve the issue ASAP.
UNQUOTE
Then let's have an informal (i.e. not according to the A class constitution) ballot among all class members: 
if the majority (50%+1) votes in favour of conventional boats,  the conventional boat wins FOR ALL and the flying gang goes out to constitute another class.
Otherwise if the majority votes in favour of the flying option, the foiling cat wins FOR ALL and the non flying gangs go out to constitute another class.
In both case the Technical Committe will be in charge to amend class rules accordingly (obviuosly afterwards modifications are to be approved by a FORMAL ballot).
There is no other way to exit from the deadlock  

 

t

Caftan, I would be in favor of a softer decision (allowing both categories to coexist for a while) but I agree to your proposal of a non-binding referendum allowing a count of the flying and non-flying guys.

It could be presented as a warm-up for the official ballot to be done through Internet. It would be good to have in front of every vote, the name of the guy and his sail number to avoid any concern about its validity.



#727 SimonN

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:59 AM

This French proposal is constitutionally unsound. What they are saying is that for this one issue, let's suspend the constitution. The constitution is worded as it is for a very good reason, to prevent the constant changing of rules and to prevent a very few having sway over the rules. imagine what happens with a  straight 50% plus one. One year, a rule gets passed by that one vote but during the course of the year, that person changes their mind and then there is a new vote the following year, and so on. 

 

We cannot simply change the constitution on a one off basis simply because this is difficult. Besides the fact it is wrong, it will not get passed ISAF, who require the class to follow correct due process. 

 

With what has gone on over the last few months and from what i hear from a range of people, I believe that there would be a very good chance that more than 50% of the votes would be in favour of foiling. As a supporter of foiling, i should therefore support the French idea, but I don't. 

 

I was closely involved with a development class in the UK where rule changes were by a simple majority and IMO, it was really bad. Time and again, rules were changed without proper debate and which had to be rectified with in a few years. I do believe that the 2/3rds majority is right.



#728 erikM

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:00 AM

In Denmark 80% voted for flying

Good to know. That's the proof that Denmark has at least 5 A class sailors.



#729 erikM

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:11 AM

This French proposal is constitutionally unsound. What they are saying is that for this one issue, let's suspend the constitution. The constitution is worded as it is for a very good reason, to prevent the constant changing of rules and to prevent a very few having sway over the rules. imagine what happens with a  straight 50% plus one. One year, a rule gets passed by that one vote but during the course of the year, that person changes their mind and then there is a new vote the following year, and so on. 

 

We cannot simply change the constitution on a one off basis simply because this is difficult. Besides the fact it is wrong, it will not get passed ISAF, who require the class to follow correct due process. 

 

With what has gone on over the last few months and from what i hear from a range of people, I believe that there would be a very good chance that more than 50% of the votes would be in favour of foiling. As a supporter of foiling, i should therefore support the French idea, but I don't. 

 

I was closely involved with a development class in the UK where rule changes were by a simple majority and IMO, it was really bad. Time and again, rules were changed without proper debate and which had to be rectified with in a few years. I do believe that the 2/3rds majority is right.

Simon,

 

Let’s be clear : the proposal above is not the French proposal but only my own personal opinion.

Do you know what a non-binding referendum is? You are right, by definition it has nothing to do with the constitution.



#730 flojo

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:12 AM

In Denmark 80% voted for flying

Good to know. That's the proof that Denmark has at least 5 A class sailors.

Cute maths ! Well, at least 5 A class sailors which did vote.



#731 Catnewbie

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:25 AM

Junior Dave NZ,

 

I strongly disagree with your opinion:

 

It's not a joke, they are not muppets, they just have faith in their genius.

 

Try to find early 2010 the presentation of the new bimare F16 by catfan

 

the hull has spray rails like the Hobie Wildcat, but bimare presented it as anti-pitching devices!!

 

Could you see one of their asymetric board based on Clark Y section would you be convinced

 they are actual genius.

 

French association was, and is still to some extend a bimare "branch".

 

A french buddy explained me a few years ago. When a french sailor dare to talk to Peter Saarberg  

who used to attend french nationals, he was then, ostracized by the other frenchies-tifosis.

 

W



#732 ita 16

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:52 AM

Catnewbie, Simon, I and others here do not have time to read all your bullshit, and I'm not going to answer your continuous and false attacks.
Simon thinks he is a God?? ok, no problem.
catnewbie suffer from premature ejaculation?? ok, no problem!
However, stop writing all this shit! please.



#733 Lars Schrøder D13

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:56 AM

it was actually 81,17% in favor of flying, but I posted a easier and round number, because more complex numbers with decimals and so on could confuse some of you;-)



#734 FishAintBiting

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:07 AM

 

In Denmark 80% voted for flying

Good to know. That's the proof that Denmark has at least 5 A class sailors.

Cute maths ! Well, at least 5 A class sailors which did vote.

 

Have you considered that someone might have voted twice?  ;)



#735 Catfan

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:37 AM

other ideas of Lallo Petrucci

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#736 Sonofabitch

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 11:50 AM

it was actually 81,17% in favor of flying, but I posted a easier and round number, because more complex numbers with decimals and so on could confuse some of you;-)


You had 8117 in favour of flying?

#737 Lars Schrøder D13

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:05 PM

or mayby 32468 or 487, we were on EPO when we voted, so everything were a little foggy



#738 Sonofabitch

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:05 PM

One of the other ideas looks remarkedly similar to Z boards Dougy the gun brought from NS14s.
What did happen to DtG?

#739 Sonofagun

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:13 PM

What did happen to DtG?


Rumour is he is in Hamilton Island. Apparently monohull foiling is the next big thing in the AC

#740 SimonN

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:10 PM

I heard he died in a nasty NS14 foiling accident.......



#741 WetnWild

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:21 AM

Yep. Straight to the bottom and nobody is looking for the black box.....

#742 Lallo

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:19 AM

We (A class) manufacturers are going to have much fun in the next future; but the same is unlike for the (A class) members.

In fact for us builders the coming months and years promise to be very exciting, testing different kind of boards, more or less planing hulls, with up to 50% less volume compared to the current ones because they will be designed to rest on the water only at launch.

We will have boards which behave differently one from another:

for example as the downwind board will set horizontally (pushed only by water pressure) in order to promote the flight, the upwind one will automatically take the vertical position, ideal for to sail upwind.
With the reduction of hulls’ volume, also their weight will drop, (about 12 kg in my appraisal), so that you’ll have to add some lead under the main crossbar. The shape and dimensions of the hulls will drastically change in order to suit the chosen type of boards.

We will see “multiwinged” board, flexible boards, tilting boards etc.

We can already count  at least 20 different projects from as many amateur and professional designers.

Each project will require a long period of development.

The wealthiest A class members will change boat two or three times a year.
Bimare will keep building its ZERO A class (we are very satisfied with the results they are getting ), but at the same time we will be busy to evaluate various options of foiling catamarans.

For now we are ready to market a new 14’ which fly very well, the S.9
My guess is that many boatyards will have to fight hard to stay in business.

As far as we are concerned we could go back to our original activity of manufacturers of PEDAL BOATS without too much harm and for sure with a better return from the economic point of view .
Anyway we hope that the A class does not suffer too much from the current situation.

However the IACA Committee should make class members aware of these most likely future scenery (most of them do not expect this kind of troubles).

“A fortiori”  in anticipation of a ballot.

Lallo



#743 erikM

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:45 AM

We (A class) manufacturers are going to have much fun in the next future; but the same is unlike for the (A class) members.

In fact for us builders the coming months and years promise to be very exciting, testing different kind of boards, more or less planing hulls, with up to 50% less volume compared to the current ones because they will be designed to rest on the water only at launch.

We will have boards which behave differently one from another:

for example as the downwind board will set horizontally (pushed only by water pressure) in order to promote the flight, the upwind one will automatically take the vertical position, ideal for to sail upwind.
With the reduction of hulls’ volume, also their weight will drop, (about 12 kg in my appraisal), so that you’ll have to add some lead under the main crossbar. The shape and dimensions of the hulls will drastically change in order to suit the chosen type of boards.

We will see “multiwinged” board, flexible boards, tilting boards etc.

We can already count  at least 20 different projects from as many amateur and professional designers.

Each project will require a long period of development.

The wealthiest A class members will change boat two or three times a year.
Bimare will keep building its ZERO A class (we are very satisfied with the results they are getting ), but at the same time we will be busy to evaluate various options of foiling catamarans.

For now we are ready to market a new 14’ which fly very well, the S.9
My guess is that many boatyards will have to fight hard to stay in business.

As far as we are concerned we could go back to our original activity of manufacturers of PEDAL BOATS without too much harm and for sure with a better return from the economic point of view .
Anyway we hope that the A class does not suffer too much from the current situation.

However the IACA Committee should make class members aware of these most likely future scenery (most of them do not expect this kind of troubles).

“A fortiori”  in anticipation of a ballot.

Lallo

What you foresee is what anybody with some brains expects and that is why some of us are concerned.



#744 juniordave nz

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:48 AM

Thanks for posting Lallo.

It is exciting times ahead.

Dont be scared of the unknown Erik.

 

I'm not sure if hulls will get that much smaller. The extra inertia will help with control.

Also any lead on a boat is wasted strength and resilience. Although lead is a shit load cheaper than carbon, so price wise it might be a good idea.



#745 SimonN

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:10 PM

Lallo

 

Would you please comment on how you feel it is right for a manufacturer to threaten a class association? Can you explain how you think the class can meet your demands when it is not possible under the class constitution? What gives you the right to impose your view of the world on the class and attempt to circumvent the democratic processes that are in place. And besides the fact that your demands and approach are outrageous, the rules you have demanded don't even solve the issues you want to tackle. 

 

What is great to hear is that as the class is rightly ignoring your demands, you will be pitching into the development that is getting so many so excited. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to seeing the results on the water.



#746 david r

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:37 PM

Thanks for posting Lallo.

It is exciting times ahead.

Dont be scared of the unknown Erik.

 

I'm not sure if hulls will get that much smaller. The extra inertia will help with control.

Also any lead on a boat is wasted strength and resilience. Although lead is a shit load cheaper than carbon, so price wise it might be a good idea.

hi,

The flow and topic of this debate is interesting.

i speculate that the small hulled version would be for winds that are constantly above a certain level.  As seen in the AC, the bigger hulls had a lower cross over wind speed by 1-2 knots.  Many races will be won on that basis so it will influence hull shapes to some extent. 

Although, if  the foils them selves were good enough maybe it wouldn't matter.  If the foils do all the work, then a v bottom might be nice for landings.  

Perhaps cutting the top couple inches off the top of a fat hull and putting stanchions would save weight, but the stanchions and re-enforcement add weight to the equation.



#747 SimonN

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:13 PM

I cannot see how there can be a saving of 12kgs because of smaller hulls. Consider what that really means. You need to take 6kgs out of each hull. As reported on another thread, hulls can be built for as little as 15kgs each. That is saying that we will be seeing hulls that weight 9kgs, which is Moth territory! There are certain things that cannot be reduced in weight, such as how the beams are bonded into the boat, the centreboard cases are built and the transom is made (the transom might need to be stronger) and you want the hulls and platform to be at least as stiff and twist resistant as the old boats. So, if you consider that there is probably at least 3 kgs of stuff in the hulls that do not change, that means that you are looking at reducing the hulls by 50%. 



#748 Foghorn77

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:18 PM

So all of this talk of smaller hull sections, etc. Do any of you guys plan on sailing in light air. Happens alot here on the East coast of the US. How do you think all of this foiling innovation will fair in under 8 knots?



#749 SimonN

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:38 PM

Foghorn

 

It's not just light airs. Maybe we will get to foiling gybes, but even the AC boats with their crew couldn't get to foiling tacks. And there will be other times when you have a hull in the water. The differences we will see in hull volumes won't be a lot different from what we see now, say comparing a "big" DNA type to a small Nikita/Arrow style boat.



#750 Rawhide

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:13 AM

Moths are now claiming to  foiling in 4 to 5 knots true. So if foiling A's are worth the cost they will have to be fairly similar. In which case there is no need for a 18ft hull and the hull shape will change dramatically. look to see the bow not extending past the forestay and the hull extended aft of the rear beam to increase separation between foils or gantries such as on a Moth. 

 

Even if they do splash down in tacks, which is likely, the focus will be on getting foiling again so waterline length will not be an issue. low windage when foiling  and low drag in low rider mode will be king.



#751 pulsarAcat

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:40 AM

Finally there is a guy here who understands what will happen in the near future ...thanks Rawhide
Logic says this:
- To have a stable flight we must increase the distance between the front and rear foils ... but also change the position of the front beam to avoid to change the balance sail / drift.
- To quickly reach the speed of possible flight we must return to the hull shapes of light wind, the current flat hull will not really appropriate, especially as with the increase of the speed of the boat during flight, rigging will also be different, stiffer masts sails flatter, therefore less power to light winds ...
So modify an existing boat to fly, this is not really the right way.
For me, the only boat that could fit in the old boats, might be the Marstrom because it has already the necessary geometry and stiffness and a good front hull volume to prevent capsize when "deflight" (remember Oracle...)

#752 flojo

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:02 AM

Moths are now claiming to  foiling in 4 to 5 knots true. So if foiling A's are worth the cost they will have to be fairly similar. In which case there is no need for a 18ft hull and the hull shape will change dramatically. look to see the bow not extending past the forestay and the hull extended aft of the rear beam to increase separation between foils or gantries such as on a Moth. 

 

Even if they do splash down in tacks, which is likely, the focus will be on getting foiling again so waterline length will not be an issue. low windage when foiling  and low drag in low rider mode will be king.

 

 

Finally there is a guy here who understands what will happen in the near future ...thanks Rawhide
Logic says this:
- To have a stable flight we must increase the distance between the front and rear foils ... but also change the position of the front beam to avoid to change the balance sail / drift.
- To quickly reach the speed of possible flight we must return to the hull shapes of light wind, the current flat hull will not really appropriate, especially as with the increase of the speed of the boat during flight, rigging will also be different, stiffer masts sails flatter, therefore less power to light winds ...
So modify an existing boat to fly, this is not really the right way.
For me, the only boat that could fit in the old boats, might be the Marstrom because it has already the necessary geometry and stiffness and a good front hull volume to prevent capsize when "deflight" (remember Oracle...)

And there is one new platform which was thoroughly designed for flying:

Attached File  g7.jpg   73.83K   47 downloads



#753 SimonN

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:55 AM

So, can some of you foiling experts please explain why Moths don't have their masts and centreboards further forward?. Why didn't the AC72's move their beams and centrebaords further forward  (none of the teams were anywhere near as far forward as they could have). There are really good reasons for this, which will also apply to A's, which is why I believe that we are unlikely to see beams and foils move that far forward.



#754 Phil S

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:03 PM

The moth mast is in the front third of LOA. 1m from the front of the 3.35m hull. The rudder LE is 0.5m aft of LOA. The centreboard/main foil has moved about 250mm forward since we stared to foil, and is now in front of the mid point of LOA and close to the centre of gravity of the boat. All ACat rigs and cases are well aft of the equivalent positions at present.



#755 SimonN

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:17 PM

Phil

 

As i am sure you know, further forward was tried, fairly early on in the game, but there are limitations. I think the furthest forward seen on a Moth was on the Mistress design and that one special took this to extremes. It didn't really work.

 

I believe that the issue for the A's (and I believe other foiling boats) is that lateral resistance is made up from a combination of the resistance from centreboard and rudder (and hulls if not foiling). As you move the centreboard forward, the CoLR doesn't go forward by the same amount. To an extent, you can counter that by raking the mast. Alternatively, you can move the centreboard forward more than you move the mast forward (which is what the DNA has done with their latest boats). As you take this further, you reach a point where some very strange things start happening and while straight line sailing works OK, as you turn corners, the boat gets thrown out of balance. I think it is because as you use the helm, the rudder contributes less to the CoLR, which then moves forward and has the effect of making the boat bear away. It really stuffs up the maneuverability of the boat and makes tacking a nightmare. We have seena  number of A's with boards that produce lift try to move the boards forward but it always leads to the same problems. It's one of the reasons why I believe that the AC72's kept their jibs - it allowed the centreboards to be further forward giving a wider "wheelbase" while staying in balance. Most people predicted the jibs would go, but to have balanced the boats, the centreboards would have needed to be further back.

 

Because of this, I don't see masts and centreboards moving a long way forward. in fact, talking this through with designers who know a lot more than i do, my conclusion is that moving the masts forward to the position we saw on boats like the Flyer 1 with centreboards placed according to how much lateral resistance the produce is a good starting point. This is why I remain a fan of "insert from below", because older boats can more easily be converted and potentially, everything is pretty close to being in the right place.



#756 GybeSet®

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:26 PM

simon 

 

what the fuck

 

sail and quit posting

 

the question is to foil or not 



#757 SoCalSlacker

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:27 PM

Look at the wing placement of airplanes to get a good idea of why you won't see main foils moving to far forward. Ultimately relates to dynamic stability.



#758 mustang__1

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:57 PM

Look at the wing placement of airplanes to get a good idea of why you won't see main foils moving to far forward. Ultimately relates to dynamic stability.

what about aft wing w/canard style craft? Like the Voyager/Varieze/etc



#759 Doug Lord

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:23 PM

Phil

 

As i am sure you know, further forward was tried, fairly early on in the game, but there are limitations. I think the furthest forward seen on a Moth was on the Mistress design and that one special took this to extremes. It didn't really work.

 

I believe that the issue for the A's (and I believe other foiling boats) is that lateral resistance is made up from a combination of the resistance from centreboard and rudder (and hulls if not foiling). As you move the centreboard forward, the CoLR doesn't go forward by the same amount. To an extent, you can counter that by raking the mast. Alternatively, you can move the centreboard forward more than you move the mast forward (which is what the DNA has done with their latest boats). As you take this further, you reach a point where some very strange things start happening and while straight line sailing works OK, as you turn corners, the boat gets thrown out of balance. I think it is because as you use the helm, the rudder contributes less to the CoLR, which then moves forward and has the effect of making the boat bear away. It really stuffs up the maneuverability of the boat and makes tacking a nightmare. We have seena  number of A's with boards that produce lift try to move the boards forward but it always leads to the same problems. It's one of the reasons why I believe that the AC72's kept their jibs - it allowed the centreboards to be further forward giving a wider "wheelbase" while staying in balance. Most people predicted the jibs would go, but to have balanced the boats, the centreboards would have needed to be further back.

 

Because of this, I don't see masts and centreboards moving a long way forward. in fact, talking this through with designers who know a lot more than i do, my conclusion is that moving the masts forward to the position we saw on boats like the Flyer 1 with centreboards placed according to how much lateral resistance the produce is a good starting point. This is why I remain a fan of "insert from below", because older boats can more easily be converted and potentially, everything is pretty close to being in the right place.

 

Really? The Center of Lateral Resistance moves forward and causes the boat to bear away?! Seems like it would have the opposite effect. Could you help me to understand what you meant?



#760 WavingNotDrowning

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:23 AM

yeah doug we know, 90% bullshit and he doesn't know the rest



#761 IC Nutter

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 02:44 AM

Look at the wing placement of airplanes to get a good idea of why you won't see main foils moving to far forward. Ultimately relates to dynamic stability.

 

The wing placement of airplanes has approximately noting to do with foil placement on sailing craft. The loads are entirely different. Foils have to cope with the pitching moment caused by the height of the centre of effort above the waterline. For greatest pitch stability you need the most separation you can get between the main and rudder foils. The more pitch stability you can get, the more you can reduce the size of the rudder foil = less drag = more speed. Optimising an A for foiling is going to require more than just moving the main beam forward a few millimetres. It will require design risks to be taken by forward thinking people in order to redesign the platform to suit a new paradigm.



#762 Rawhide

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:21 AM

Look at the wing placement of airplanes to get a good idea of why you won't see main foils moving to far forward. Ultimately relates to dynamic stability.

No one who knows what they are talking about is comtemplating moving foils forward to any great extent. the main foil will probably move forward 100 to 200mm relative to the mast base to maintain balance, it is the aft foil that will move further back.



#763 Tcatman

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 05:11 PM

So it begins....   all be it... without a great deal of integrity by the IACA and their feckless leadership.

The North Americans begin the inevitable process.

 

For the first time there will be North American and Intergalactic championships in June. We are unsure how these two geographies were combined into one event, but clearly they overlap. There has been an amendment for North American's NOR (link posted). There is now an Intergalactic division in the regatta.

 

Now... "A" fleet and Intergalactic fleet may mean different things to different people... but HEY.... what is the point of language if it can't mean all things to all people.

 

Nevertheless... a step forward......  The sailors have a choice to register for a race that has integrity.  Good Move US A class!



#764 WetnWild

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:16 AM

So it begins....   all be it... without a great deal of integrity by the IACA and their feckless leadership.
The North Americans begin the inevitable process.
 


For the first time there will be North American and Intergalactic championships in June. We are unsure how these two geographies were combined into one event, but clearly they overlap. There has been an amendment for North American's NOR (link posted). There is now an Intergalactic division in the regatta.










http://usaca.info/im...pril_4_1014.pdf


usaca.info









 
Now... "A" fleet and Intergalactic fleet may mean different things to different people... but HEY.... what is the point of language if it can't mean all things to all people.
 
Nevertheless... a step forward......  The sailors have a choice to register for a race that has integrity.  Good Move US A class!

Is this just to allow international competitors? There has been no change to the measurement requirement and championship rules.

#765 Tcatman

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:27 AM

So it begins....   all be it... without a great deal of integrity by the IACA and their feckless leadership.
The North Americans begin the inevitable process.

Is this just to allow international competitors? There has been no change to the measurement requirement and championship rules.

Would you trave far and wide to enter the intergalactic division?  I think it recognizes domestic reality for North American Sailors.... Going forward... there are two divisions.
... Currently, they are called "A" and "Intergalactic" in the US....



#766 Scarecrow

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:34 AM

Adding "open" loose rules divisions in major events may actually slow development down.  Generally speaking the guys at the front of the fleet rely upon performance to sell their products and as such will want to remain eligible for major titles.  This has been recognized in the press release that was issued earlier in the year by the Aussies that suggested that while he was going to be involved in non-compliant foil development Brewin will still be sailing stock As at big events.  Statistically speaking you would have to bet on these guys beating the people experimenting with "superior" solutions despite sailing "inferior boats".  Look what happened when Glenn won a worlds with a straight board ASG3, not only did it result in a lot of people buying a boat which turned out to be a dog but it also probably slowed down what has become the universal adoption of curved boards.



#767 WetnWild

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:42 AM

Yes I've been known to do such things.
Also a number of countries and Worlds have had masters, grand masters and great grand masters since the year dot. For the last 15 years the AUS nationals has had the president's cup for older generation boats.
Seems business as usual to me and the USA association adopting common practice.

#768 WetnWild

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:55 AM

Adding "open" loose rules divisions in major events may actually slow development down.  Generally speaking the guys at the front of the fleet rely upon performance to sell their products and as such will want to remain eligible for major titles.  This has been recognized in the press release that was issued earlier in the year by the Aussies that suggested that while he was going to be involved in non-compliant foil development Brewin will still be sailing stock As at big events.  Statistically speaking you would have to bet on these guys beating the people experimenting with "superior" solutions despite sailing "inferior boats".  Look what happened when Glenn won a worlds with a straight board ASG3, not only did it result in a lot of people buying a boat which turned out to be a dog but it also probably slowed down what has become the universal adoption of curved boards.


In the NA example there doesn't seem to be any "open" loose rule division. The amendment didn't delete the measurement and championship rules clauses. Or am I missing something?

#769 Rawhide

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:39 AM

Having just placed an order for a Moth, I like the idea of an open loose rules division.



#770 WetnWild

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:10 AM

Having just placed an order for a Moth, I like the idea of an open loose rules division.


You're too old for a moth. Buy another A.

#771 hoop

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:59 PM

intergalactic is a choice for those skippers who feel they can not compete with the top half of the fleet.  Gives them a shot at a trophy. Simple as that. Won't be my choice. I believe both "fleets" start together. 



#772 Tcatman

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:20 AM

Hoop, Perhaps you will switch when the flying boats make the race silly! 

 

Two divisions make sense looking forward  but Words matter...  I will use the meaning you choose...

 

A fleet and Intergalactic fleet are bullshit. terms.  Just use the ordinary language of A fleet and B fleet.   No need dance around with bull shit language it makes us look silly.

 

There are good reasons to NOT divide a small 50 boat fleet into  self selecting A fleet and  B Fleet (Intergalactic)... See Stuart Walkers books  for a good discussion.

 

I don't know of any other major class that uses A fleet and B fleet (Intergalactic) using one start....Do you have any evidence that it works well?



#773 Rawhide

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:45 AM

Having just placed an order for a Moth, I like the idea of an open loose rules division.


You're too old for a moth. Buy another A.

I do intend getting another A, just going to sit on my hands for a while and see how things fall out. 



#774 BobBill

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 11:21 AM

I am with couchsurfer..."not everyone wants to foil..."

 

Not everyone likes fat media announcers, not everyone likes expensive either...

 

The market will rule, none of us need anything foisted upon us as in PC bullshit on the US media.

 

Remembering that some of those who promote have an agenda, be it already committed (mental block) or investment to recoup...after all money talks...and what is left is plain pragmatism...you want to fly, fly, you don't you won't and should not have to be subject to it. Plain and simple.



#775 dacarls

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 11:53 PM

At the moment, since no North Americans admit to owning DNA J-foils, there won't be any modern flying A-cats at the 2014 North Americans.

 Not even one.  So Far As I Know. Thus we will see a fleet of faster old boats and a fleet of slower old boats there!  Simple, actually.



#776 Tcatman

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Posted Yesterday, 12:50 AM

Simple...  OK.....  but that is not the rule...  the fleet is not divided by age of boat or age of technology... it is self selected division...

 

But.. Ok... I will take your interpretation...( ah... the beauty of the words...  A Division and Intergalactic Divison...)   Do you have any examples of other classes that divide the class into two fleets scored seperately by owners perecieved speed?

 

So far...

we could self select into flying and non flying divisions.... (Tcatman)

we could self select into A and B Fleets  (Hoop)

we could self select into slower old boats and faster old boats. (Da Carls)



#777 WetnWild

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Posted Yesterday, 10:27 AM

Give it a rest. Seems like you are trying to stir controversy where there isn't any. Have a nice sail over Easter.

#778 BobBill

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Posted Yesterday, 11:19 AM

WetnWild +1. Stuff has a way of sorting itself out, regardless...we dodgers will decide.






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