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#1 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:55 AM

Amazing to watch....and disturbing for me. I went to Ukraine twice on diplomatic missions around 10 years ago. Spent a few days in Kiev on one of the trips. Met really great people struggling to find their way in a difficult economy in an emerging democracy. Watching them and talking with them about their newfound freedom leaves me wondering about them today. They were so committed to their new form of government and very proud of their country. Watching the news I half expect to see them on the barricades on TV. I wonder how they are..............

We squabble amongst ourselves without a thought for how precious our freedom really is.

#2 Olsonist

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:33 AM

Yanukovych seems like a real piece of shit.

#3 GRUMPY

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:43 AM

Not a good look PB....

 

kiev_19gai7m-19gai94.jpg



#4 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:46 AM

Not a good look PB....
 
kiev_19gai7m-19gai94.jpg

It amazes me. I stood in that square.

#5 HardOnWind

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:18 AM


Not a good look PB....
 
kiev_19gai7m-19gai94.jpg

It amazes me. I stood in that square.


Did you meet any desperate Ukrainian women?

http://www.ukrainebridesagency.com/

#6 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:41 AM

There were quite a few pretty women that had some members of the team quite interested. Being a very married guy I had no interest.

#7 Tom Ray

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:01 PM

Creeeeepy

 

“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”

 

That’s a text message that thousands of Ukrainian protesters spontaneously received on their cell phones today, as a new law prohibiting public demonstrations went into effect.

...

The NY Times reports that the “Ukrainian government used telephone technology to pinpoint the locations of cell phones in use near clashes between riot police officers and protesters early on Tuesday.” Near. Using a cell phone near a clash lands you on the regime’s hit list.



#8 Dog

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:45 PM

Creeeeepy

 

“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”

 

That’s a text message that thousands of Ukrainian protesters spontaneously received on their cell phones today, as a new law prohibiting public demonstrations went into effect.

...

The NY Times reports that the “Ukrainian government used telephone technology to pinpoint the locations of cell phones in use near clashes between riot police officers and protesters early on Tuesday.” Near. Using a cell phone near a clash lands you on the regime’s hit list.

That could never happen here.



#9 Saorsa

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:46 PM

 

Creeeeepy

 

“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”

 

That’s a text message that thousands of Ukrainian protesters spontaneously received on their cell phones today, as a new law prohibiting public demonstrations went into effect.

...

The NY Times reports that the “Ukrainian government used telephone technology to pinpoint the locations of cell phones in use near clashes between riot police officers and protesters early on Tuesday.” Near. Using a cell phone near a clash lands you on the regime’s hit list.

That could never happen here.

 

It's just metadata.



#10 Rum Runner

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:20 PM

Very sad.  

 

This has the fingerprints of Putin all over it.  Fortunately he is preoccupied right now with supporting the graft-Olympic games helping his friends rip off the Russian people.  Otherwise we might see Russian tanks and storm troopers on the streets of Kiev.



#11 plchacker

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:25 PM

Very sad.  

 

This has the fingerprints of Putin all over it.  Fortunately he is preoccupied right now with supporting the graft-Olympic games helping his friends rip off the Russian people.  Otherwise we might see Russian tanks and storm troopers on the streets of Kiev.

Drones.



#12 plchacker

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:26 PM

Amazing to watch....and disturbing for me. I went to Ukraine twice on diplomatic missions around 10 years ago. Spent a few days in Kiev on one of the trips. Met really great people struggling to find their way in a difficult economy in an emerging democracy. Watching them and talking with them about their newfound freedom leaves me wondering about them today. They were so committed to their new form of government and very proud of their country. Watching the news I half expect to see them on the barricades on TV. I wonder how they are..............

We squabble amongst ourselves without a thought for how precious our freedom really is.

I hate that things are going this way.  I hope your friends are safe. 



#13 cmilliken

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:31 PM

To me, this is just a prelude to the 2017 treaty fight over the Crimean peninsula.  The Russians will NEVER willingly give up the Black Sea Fleet.  The Pro-west forces have been desperately trying to draw in NATO as a foil to Russia but the Americans are too far away and too removed to take strong interest and the Europeans too fractured, too timid, and ultimately, too codependent on Russia for fuel and nuclear reprocessing to oppose Putin.  I feel bad for them but the protesters are simply going to get rolled eventually.  They have two options - Fight the civil war or capitulate.



#14 Clove Hitch

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:48 PM

  I feel bad for them but the protesters are simply going to get rolled eventually.  They have two options - Fight the civil war or capitulate.

 

I wouldn't be too sure about that.  They seem pretty good at taking out APCs.  Prolly see the govt. overthrown within the next couple of days. 

 

http://www.liveleak.com/c/must_see



#15 cmilliken

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:56 PM

  I feel bad for them but the protesters are simply going to get rolled eventually.  They have two options - Fight the civil war or capitulate.

 

I wouldn't be too sure about that.  They seem pretty good at taking out APCs.  Prolly see the govt. overthrown within the next couple of days. 

 

http://www.liveleak.com/c/must_see

 

They may in fact, overthrow the government.  That will be the civil war option.  At that point, the Russians will increase their military assistance and the situation will escalate.  I have some Ukrainian friends who's grandparents still  remember the famine.  They'd love to break away.  I just can't see it happening in any way other than with blood - lots of it.



#16 Clove Hitch

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:01 PM

Live feed of some stuff here.  About two hours ago there were 100 dudes geared up for combat marching off to cheers.

 



#17 kmccabe

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:05 PM

This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of this one.

#18 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:17 PM

This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California–Ukraine_National_Guard_Partnership

#19 Remodel

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:11 PM

This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of this one.

Agree, but if NATO gets involved, so do we. Unfortunately.

 

 

I've heard that a number of security forces have joined the dissidents. Civil war looms...



#20 kmccabe

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:34 PM

Very, very uncool.

#21 Tom Ray

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:43 PM

 

Creeeeepy

 

“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”

 

That’s a text message that thousands of Ukrainian protesters spontaneously received on their cell phones today, as a new law prohibiting public demonstrations went into effect.

...

The NY Times reports that the “Ukrainian government used telephone technology to pinpoint the locations of cell phones in use near clashes between riot police officers and protesters early on Tuesday.” Near. Using a cell phone near a clash lands you on the regime’s hit list.

That could never happen here.

 

And registering participants could never have anything to do with banning them.  ;)



#22 kmccabe

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:47 PM

Stay out.

#23 TMSAIL

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:26 PM

Stay out.

Obama has it under control revoked visa's for Ukrainian dignitaries.  


 

 Reuters) - The U.S. embassy in Kiev said on Wednesday it had revoked the visas of "several Ukrainians" in response to action taken against protesters demonstrating against President Viktor Yanukovich's government.


"In response to actions taken against protesters ... in November and December of last year, the U.S. Embassy has revoked the visas of several Ukrainians who were linked to the violence," a statement said.

It did not identify anyone by name, but added it was considering further action against those responsible for the current violence

Staying out sounds great  That does not mean you do not get involved in the conversation.  If they were Brown Muslims Obama would be all over it   White Christians not so much.  ( sarcasm on ) 



#24 Clove Hitch

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:27 PM

Stay out.

 

They'll great us as liberators.  The oil will pay for the war.



#25 JMD

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

Stay out.

Obama has it under control revoked visa's for Ukrainian dignitaries.  


 

>> Reuters) - The U.S. embassy in Kiev said on Wednesday it had revoked the visas of "several Ukrainians" in response to action taken against protesters demonstrating against President Viktor Yanukovich's government.


"In response to actions taken against protesters ... in November and December of last year, the U.S. Embassy has revoked the visas of several Ukrainians who were linked to the violence," a statement said.

It did not identify anyone by name, but added it was considering further action against those responsible for the current violence

Staying out sounds great  That does not mean you do not get involved in the conversation.  If they were Brown Muslims Obama would be all over it   White Christians not so much.  ( sarcasm on ) 

 

What should Obama do?

 

I'm on board with stay out of it.  Entirely.  Just stay out of it.



#26 JMD

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:30 PM

Stay out.

 

They'll great us as liberators.  The oil will pay for the war.

Don't underestimate Ukraine:



#27 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:42 PM

I'm not sure what the method of assistance might reasonably be but..........well here are a few statements excerpted from my link. Bold underline is my emphasis.

 

So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 

In other words "our word is as good as....................well nothing".

 

The California–Ukraine National Guard Partnership is one of 22 European partnerships that make-up the U.S. European Command State Partnership Program and one of 65 worldwide partnerships that make-up the National Guard State Partnership Program (SPP).[1] The California-Ukraine SPP is one of the most important and progressive partnerships within European Command. Ukraine's size and strategic location make it one of the most influential countries in the region, thus making the SPP a key factor in assisting Ukraine as it develops it budding democracy.

 

Through the SPP, the California National Guard and Ukraine have addressed a broad range of social, economic, military and political issues including border security, base conversion, emergency response, inter-agency cooperation, civil-military relations and security cooperation. With hundreds of events completed since its inception in June 1999, the SPP has become a sophisticated engagement tool that brings together civilian expertise, multi-level government agencies, NATO, non-government organizations and commercial interests.

 

According to the Office of International Affairs, California Military Department "The Office of International Affairs manages the State Partnership Program (SPP) with Ukraine. The SPP deploys California National Guard teams to Ukraine and brings Ukrainians to the United States for information sharing to assist Armed Forces of Ukraine in re-structuring, modernizing its forces, and strengthening principles of democracy and free market economies. Exchanges include information about the processes underpinning US military structures that result in subordination to civilian control, consensus building, methodologies for achieving objectives, and interagency coordination of civil/military issues. Future missions for International Relations will include partnerships with other countries to bring the same philosophy to these regions of the world as has been done successfully in the Baltics."[2]



#28 Tom Ray

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:51 PM

I'm not sure what the method of assistance might reasonably be but..........well here are a few statements excerpted from my link. Bold underline is my emphasis.

 

So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 

The big problem in a civil war: when you say Hey Ukraine, are you talking to the government or the opposition?

 

When their efforts involve killing each other, we can't exactly support both in their efforts at the same time, can we? I guess we could, but we shouldn't.



#29 TMSAIL

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:00 PM

My Cousin's Husband works for a major US laboratory  he has been going over there for the last ten years helping them shut down the old NUKE plants.   To just say sorry  not our problem while the Russian bear reestablishes the Soviet Union is not something I want to see happen.  I agree the The EU needs to take the point, but unless NATO is disbanded we are going to be involved.



#30 TMSAIL

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:01 PM

I'm not sure what the method of assistance might reasonably be but..........well here are a few statements excerpted from my link. Bold underline is my emphasis.

 

So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 

The big problem in a civil war: when you say Hey Ukraine, are you talking to the government or the opposition?

 

When their efforts involve killing each other, we can't exactly support both in their efforts at the same time, can we? I guess we could, but we shouldn't.

If it is a civil war.  What if the military switches to the opposition and it is Russia propping up the government?



#31 Saorsa

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:12 PM

This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of this one.

Agree, but if NATO gets involved, so do we. Unfortunately.

 

 

I've heard that a number of security forces have joined the dissidents. Civil war looms...

 

Which NATO country is threatened?

 

Europe tried that shit in the countries formerly known as Yugoslavia and have been admitting other broke eastern European countries into the EU.

 

I don't see any reason to participate in their  or the Russian expansion.



#32 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:45 PM

I'm not sure what the method of assistance might reasonably be but..........well here are a few statements excerpted from my link. Bold underline is my emphasis.

 

So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 

The big problem in a civil war: when you say Hey Ukraine, are you talking to the government or the opposition?

 

When their efforts involve killing each other, we can't exactly support both in their efforts at the same time, can we? I guess we could, but we shouldn't.

I agree with that. However if the purpose of our relationship is pointed at making emerging democracies successful, that would place us in the camp of the antigovernment protestors.............however the existing government was duly elected. interesting dilemma.

 

I found Ukraine very very interesting. On the first mission we were in the far northeastern portion of Ukraine. Those folks are still VERY close to their ethnic Russian roots. In fact at one of the exercises, several Russian military officers showed up unannounced and unwelcome by the Ukrainian folks we were working with. I have no idea how they got over the border (but we were not far from Russia at all). Western Ukraine and Kiev esp. is very western in its desires and appearance. They still hate the Russians (and Germans for that matter) for the acts committed during WW2. We toured the Museum of the Great Patriotic War in Kiev and were lucky enough to have a old (very old) english speaking docent take our small group through the museum. He had been a boy in western Ukraine during first the soviet "occupation" and starvation, then the Nazi occupation. His personal stories augmented the historical exhibits in a way that's hard to explain. One thing that is clear, they are a country divided in their views of the west and Russia.

 

I also met a guy who was the "Captain" of one of their civilian rescue teams. He was a prospective Olympic athlete when the Soviet Union boycotted the 1984 summer games in LA. As a result he missed his chance. He was not ethic Russian like many in the northeast but was a very patriotic nationalistic Ukrainian like those we met in the west and populating the then government who viewed the time spent in the Soviet Union as an occupation.

 

It is a very complicated internal landscape.

 

On a personal note when I think of beautiful St. Michael's Cathedral filled with wounded and dying.............its stunning.



#33 Remodel

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:35 PM



I'm not sure what the method of assistance might reasonably be but..........well here are a few statements excerpted from my link. Bold underline is my emphasis.
 
So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 
The big problem in a civil war: when you say Hey Ukraine, are you talking to the government or the opposition?
 
When their efforts involve killing each other, we can't exactly support both in their efforts at the same time, can we? I guess we could, but we shouldn't.


I agree with that. However if the purpose of our relationship is pointed at making emerging democracies successful, that would place us in the camp of the antigovernment protestors.............however the existing government was duly elected. interesting dilemma.


Aye, there's the rub...

#34 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:46 PM


 


This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of this one.

Agree, but if NATO gets involved, so do we. Unfortunately.

 

 

I've heard that a number of security forces have joined the dissidents. Civil war looms...

 

Which NATO country is threatened?

 

Europe tried that shit in the countries formerly known as Yugoslavia and have been admitting other broke eastern European countries into the EU.

 

I don't see any reason to participate in their  or the Russian expansion.

The relationship is in flux and a bit thorny at present.

 

 First two excerpts: http://en.wikipedia....

 

Overview:

 

Relations between Ukraine and North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1995. Ukraine is as of January 2008 a candidate to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP).[1][2] On December 3, 2008 NATO decided it will work out an Annual National Programme of providing assistance to Ukraine to implement reforms required to accede the alliance without referring to MAP.[3] Plans for Ukrainian membership to NATO were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 Ukrainian presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych was elected President.[4]President Yanukovych opted to keep Ukraine a non-aligned state.[5] This materialized on June 3, 2010 when the Ukrainian parliament excluded, with 226 votes, the goal of "integration into Euro-Atlantic security and NATO membership" from the country's national security strategy.[6] "European integration" is still part of Ukraine's national security strategy and co-operation with NATO was not excluded.[6] Ukraine considers its relations with NATO as a partnership.[7][8] Ukraine and NATO still hold joint seminars and joint tactical and strategical exercises and operations.[9][10]

 

Russian View:

Neighbouring Russia is strongly opposed to any eastward expansion of NATO.[67][68] On February 12, 2008 (then) Russian President Vladimir Putin said Russia may target its missiles at Ukraine if its neighbour joins NATO and accepts the deployment of a US missile defence shield.[69] Former Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko has stated more than once his country would not allow foreign military bases on its territory;[70][71] as of December 2009 NATO is not planning to deploy military bases in Ukraine.[72]

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly declared at a NATO-Russia summit in 2008 that if Ukraine joined NATO his country could contend to annex the Ukrainian East and Crimea.[73]



#35 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:47 PM

Sorry for two posts...the board will not allow three quoted blocks of text.

 

CENAA Anaylsis

http://cenaa.org/ana...ne-partnership/

 

It is hard to expect that NATO-Ukraine relations will develop exclusively on a pragmatic and technical level. It is still unclear, however, where the proper balance between pragmatic and value-driven cooperation should be. The concept of relations as outlined in existing legal and institutional framework seems to be misaligned with the practical side of cooperation. In order to reinforce mutual relations a dialogue is needed on a new strategic vision based on goals for cooperation.

Such an approach would be impossible, however, without taking into account Russia’s policies towards its “near abroad.” The experience of the last two decades has proven that while at least one of the major security players in Europe regards the relations on the continent in terms of geo-political rivalry, Ukraine as one of the main targets of such rivalry will have to face problems in formulating and executing its security policy in a clear way that excludes ambiguity and balancing efforts.

 

So while NATO has an interest and certainly the EU in Eastern European alignments, I doubt it is sufficient to warrant any military involvement.



#36 Saorsa

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:05 PM

Sorry for two posts...the board will not allow three quoted blocks of text.

 

CENAA Anaylsis

http://cenaa.org/ana...ne-partnership/

 

 

It is hard to expect that NATO-Ukraine relations will develop exclusively on a pragmatic and technical level. It is still unclear, however, where the proper balance between pragmatic and value-driven cooperation should be. The concept of relations as outlined in existing legal and institutional framework seems to be misaligned with the practical side of cooperation. In order to reinforce mutual relations a dialogue is needed on a new strategic vision based on goals for cooperation.

Such an approach would be impossible, however, without taking into account Russia’s policies towards its “near abroad.” The experience of the last two decades has proven that while at least one of the major security players in Europe regards the relations on the continent in terms of geo-political rivalry, Ukraine as one of the main targets of such rivalry will have to face problems in formulating and executing its security policy in a clear way that excludes ambiguity and balancing efforts.

 

So while NATO has an interest and certainly the EU in Eastern European alignments, I doubt it is sufficient to warrant any military involvement.

 

I'm not sure what NATOs interest is and I damn sure don't see our national interest without using a whole lot of what ifs to develop derivatives.  Mutual defense is one thing.  Expansion of the EU quite another.

 

Like much of eastern europe, the Russians assimilated with the community over time and many of those folks are now native born with cultural loyalties to Russia.  It looks like the Ukraine swings from one side to another with each election.

 

The problem is that if the EU decides to go in those members who are also in NATO may drag us in. 



#37 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:48 PM

 


Sorry for two posts...the board will not allow three quoted blocks of text.

 

CENAA Anaylsis

http://cenaa.org/ana...ne-partnership/

 


 

It is hard to expect that NATO-Ukraine relations will develop exclusively on a pragmatic and technical level. It is still unclear, however, where the proper balance between pragmatic and value-driven cooperation should be. The concept of relations as outlined in existing legal and institutional framework seems to be misaligned with the practical side of cooperation. In order to reinforce mutual relations a dialogue is needed on a new strategic vision based on goals for cooperation.

Such an approach would be impossible, however, without taking into account Russia’s policies towards its “near abroad.” The experience of the last two decades has proven that while at least one of the major security players in Europe regards the relations on the continent in terms of geo-political rivalry, Ukraine as one of the main targets of such rivalry will have to face problems in formulating and executing its security policy in a clear way that excludes ambiguity and balancing efforts.

 

So while NATO has an interest and certainly the EU in Eastern European alignments, I doubt it is sufficient to warrant any military involvement.

 

I'm not sure what NATOs interest is and I damn sure don't see our national interest without using a whole lot of what ifs to develop derivatives.  Mutual defense is one thing.  Expansion of the EU quite another.

 

Like much of eastern europe, the Russians assimilated with the community over time and many of those folks are now native born with cultural loyalties to Russia.  It looks like the Ukraine swings from one side to another with each election.

 

The problem is that if the EU decides to go in those members who are also in NATO may drag us in. 

Sorta....the modern country is a construct of various treaties not cultural homogeneity. Its not so much that Russians have assimilated over time as much as it is that certain regions are ethically Russian and steadfastly remain so. The current government is certainly Russian leaning. I have to say, nearly everyone I met was very interested in maintaining their distance from NATO, Russia and leaned toward the EU for affiliations. Most of what I have read and seen in the news outlets involve Ukrainians expressing their fear that if the current government continues its migration toward the Russian sphere that their freedoms of self determination will be lost forever. It is a very strong nationalistic notion in the minds of the younger non ethic Russian people.

 

Whether it is in NATO, the EU's or the USA's interests to not have Ukraine slip back into the Russian sphere is a question that certainly has several views. In the wake of the last decade of US foreign policy I hear a number of people advocating an inward isolationist view of US foreign policy.

 

350px-Ukraine-growth_zpsbc098adf.png



#38 Saorsa

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:55 PM

 


Sorry for two posts...the board will not allow three quoted blocks of text.

 

CENAA Anaylsis

http://cenaa.org/ana...ne-partnership/

 


 

It is hard to expect that NATO-Ukraine relations will develop exclusively on a pragmatic and technical level. It is still unclear, however, where the proper balance between pragmatic and value-driven cooperation should be. The concept of relations as outlined in existing legal and institutional framework seems to be misaligned with the practical side of cooperation. In order to reinforce mutual relations a dialogue is needed on a new strategic vision based on goals for cooperation.

Such an approach would be impossible, however, without taking into account Russia’s policies towards its “near abroad.” The experience of the last two decades has proven that while at least one of the major security players in Europe regards the relations on the continent in terms of geo-political rivalry, Ukraine as one of the main targets of such rivalry will have to face problems in formulating and executing its security policy in a clear way that excludes ambiguity and balancing efforts.

 

So while NATO has an interest and certainly the EU in Eastern European alignments, I doubt it is sufficient to warrant any military involvement.

 

I'm not sure what NATOs interest is and I damn sure don't see our national interest without using a whole lot of what ifs to develop derivatives.  Mutual defense is one thing.  Expansion of the EU quite another.

 

Like much of eastern europe, the Russians assimilated with the community over time and many of those folks are now native born with cultural loyalties to Russia.  It looks like the Ukraine swings from one side to another with each election.

 

The problem is that if the EU decides to go in those members who are also in NATO may drag us in. 

Sorta....the modern country is a construct of various treaties not cultural homogeneity. Its not so much that Russians have assimilated over time as much as it is that certain regions are ethically Russian and steadfastly remain so. The current government is certainly Russian leaning. I have to say, nearly everyone I met was very interested in maintaining their distance from NATO, Russia and leaned toward the EU for affiliations. Most of what I have read and seen in the news outlets involve Ukrainians expressing their fear that if the current government continues its migration toward the Russian sphere that their freedoms of self determination will be lost forever. It is a very strong nationalistic notion in the minds of the younger non ethic Russian people.

 

Whether it is in NATO, the EU's or the USA's interests to not have Ukraine slip back into the Russian sphere is a question that certainly has several views. In the wake of the last decade of US foreign policy I hear a number of people advocating an inward isolationist view of US foreign policy.

 

350px-Ukraine-growth_zpsbc098adf.png

 

Well, the obvious solution would be to take it out of the hands of the EU, NATO, the remnants of the former Soviet Union and give it to the UN.

 

They could divide it into East/West or North/South, we have a war for a few years blowing the shit out of both sides and then leave them alone to re-unite or not.

 

Alternatively, the 'do nothing' strategy lets them re-unite or not without all the outsiders blowing the shit out of things.



#39 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:05 PM

 

 


Sorry for two posts...the board will not allow three quoted blocks of text.

 

CENAA Anaylsis

http://cenaa.org/ana...ne-partnership/

 


 

It is hard to expect that NATO-Ukraine relations will develop exclusively on a pragmatic and technical level. It is still unclear, however, where the proper balance between pragmatic and value-driven cooperation should be. The concept of relations as outlined in existing legal and institutional framework seems to be misaligned with the practical side of cooperation. In order to reinforce mutual relations a dialogue is needed on a new strategic vision based on goals for cooperation.

Such an approach would be impossible, however, without taking into account Russia’s policies towards its “near abroad.” The experience of the last two decades has proven that while at least one of the major security players in Europe regards the relations on the continent in terms of geo-political rivalry, Ukraine as one of the main targets of such rivalry will have to face problems in formulating and executing its security policy in a clear way that excludes ambiguity and balancing efforts.

 

So while NATO has an interest and certainly the EU in Eastern European alignments, I doubt it is sufficient to warrant any military involvement.

 

I'm not sure what NATOs interest is and I damn sure don't see our national interest without using a whole lot of what ifs to develop derivatives.  Mutual defense is one thing.  Expansion of the EU quite another.

 

Like much of eastern europe, the Russians assimilated with the community over time and many of those folks are now native born with cultural loyalties to Russia.  It looks like the Ukraine swings from one side to another with each election.

 

The problem is that if the EU decides to go in those members who are also in NATO may drag us in. 

Sorta....the modern country is a construct of various treaties not cultural homogeneity. Its not so much that Russians have assimilated over time as much as it is that certain regions are ethically Russian and steadfastly remain so. The current government is certainly Russian leaning. I have to say, nearly everyone I met was very interested in maintaining their distance from NATO, Russia and leaned toward the EU for affiliations. Most of what I have read and seen in the news outlets involve Ukrainians expressing their fear that if the current government continues its migration toward the Russian sphere that their freedoms of self determination will be lost forever. It is a very strong nationalistic notion in the minds of the younger non ethic Russian people.

 

Whether it is in NATO, the EU's or the USA's interests to not have Ukraine slip back into the Russian sphere is a question that certainly has several views. In the wake of the last decade of US foreign policy I hear a number of people advocating an inward isolationist view of US foreign policy.

 

350px-Ukraine-growth_zpsbc098adf.png

 

Well, the obvious solution would be to take it out of the hands of the EU, NATO, the remnants of the former Soviet Union and give it to the UN.

 

They could divide it into East/West or North/South, we have a war for a few years blowing the shit out of both sides and then leave them alone to re-unite or not.

 

Alternatively, the 'do nothing' strategy lets them re-unite or not without all the outsiders blowing the shit out of things.

I don't think anyone is contemplating or advocating military intervention. Of course, McCain hasn't visited yet............



#40 Saorsa

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:07 PM

 

 

 

I'm not sure what NATOs interest is and I damn sure don't see our national interest without using a whole lot of what ifs to develop derivatives.  Mutual defense is one thing.  Expansion of the EU quite another.

 

Like much of eastern europe, the Russians assimilated with the community over time and many of those folks are now native born with cultural loyalties to Russia.  It looks like the Ukraine swings from one side to another with each election.

 

The problem is that if the EU decides to go in those members who are also in NATO may drag us in. 

Sorta....the modern country is a construct of various treaties not cultural homogeneity. Its not so much that Russians have assimilated over time as much as it is that certain regions are ethically Russian and steadfastly remain so. The current government is certainly Russian leaning. I have to say, nearly everyone I met was very interested in maintaining their distance from NATO, Russia and leaned toward the EU for affiliations. Most of what I have read and seen in the news outlets involve Ukrainians expressing their fear that if the current government continues its migration toward the Russian sphere that their freedoms of self determination will be lost forever. It is a very strong nationalistic notion in the minds of the younger non ethic Russian people.

 

Whether it is in NATO, the EU's or the USA's interests to not have Ukraine slip back into the Russian sphere is a question that certainly has several views. In the wake of the last decade of US foreign policy I hear a number of people advocating an inward isolationist view of US foreign policy.

 

350px-Ukraine-growth_zpsbc098adf.png

 

Well, the obvious solution would be to take it out of the hands of the EU, NATO, the remnants of the former Soviet Union and give it to the UN.

 

They could divide it into East/West or North/South, we have a war for a few years blowing the shit out of both sides and then leave them alone to re-unite or not.

 

Alternatively, the 'do nothing' strategy lets them re-unite or not without all the outsiders blowing the shit out of things.

I don't think anyone is contemplating or advocating military intervention. Of course, McCain hasn't visited yet............

 

Then why get NATO involved or even include them in the discussion.  I know there's been a lot of mission creep but it's still a military organization designed to kill people and break things.



#41 plchacker

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:44 PM

 

Stay out.

Obama has it under control revoked visa's for Ukrainian dignitaries.  


 

>> Reuters) - The U.S. embassy in Kiev said on Wednesday it had revoked the visas of "several Ukrainians" in response to action taken against protesters demonstrating against President Viktor Yanukovich's government.


"In response to actions taken against protesters ... in November and December of last year, the U.S. Embassy has revoked the visas of several Ukrainians who were linked to the violence," a statement said.

It did not identify anyone by name, but added it was considering further action against those responsible for the current vi

olence

Staying out sounds great  That does not mean you do not get involved in the conversation.  If they were Brown Muslims Obama would be all over it   White Christians not so much.  ( sarcasm on ) 

What should Obama do?

 

I'm on board with stay out of it.  Entirely.  Just stay out of it.

 

I agree.



#42 cmus

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:48 PM

Very sad.  

 

This has the fingerprints of Putin all over it.  Fortunately he is preoccupied right now with supporting the graft-Olympic games helping his friends rip off the Russian people.  Otherwise we might see Russian tanks and storm troopers on the streets of Kiev.

 

Do not begrudge  Mr. Putin his success at mastering the game that American elites invented; transfer of all wealth from many to few.

 

As to the fingerprints in other nations' pies, how would you feel if Mr. Putin interfered in relations between Canada and USA?

 

When it comes to importing arms into foreign conflicts, how do you feel about USA arming insurgent terrorists in Syria, just like it armed UBL during  his insurgency against the USSR supported Afghan government?



#43 Mark K

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:38 PM

 

I'm not sure what the method of assistance might reasonably be but..........well here are a few statements excerpted from my link. Bold underline is my emphasis.

 

So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 

The big problem in a civil war: when you say Hey Ukraine, are you talking to the government or the opposition?

 

When their efforts involve killing each other, we can't exactly support both in their efforts at the same time, can we? I guess we could, but we shouldn't.

I agree with that. However if the purpose of our relationship is pointed at making emerging democracies successful, that would place us in the camp of the antigovernment protestors.............however the existing government was duly elected. interesting dilemma.

 

I found Ukraine very very interesting. On the first mission we were in the far northeastern portion of Ukraine. Those folks are still VERY close to their ethnic Russian roots. In fact at one of the exercises, several Russian military officers showed up unannounced and unwelcome by the Ukrainian folks we were working with. I have no idea how they got over the border (but we were not far from Russia at all). Western Ukraine and Kiev esp. is very western in its desires and appearance. They still hate the Russians (and Germans for that matter) for the acts committed during WW2. We toured the Museum of the Great Patriotic War in Kiev and were lucky enough to have a old (very old) english speaking docent take our small group through the museum. He had been a boy in western Ukraine during first the soviet "occupation" and starvation, then the Nazi occupation. His personal stories augmented the historical exhibits in a way that's hard to explain. One thing that is clear, they are a country divided in their views of the west and Russia.

 

I also met a guy who was the "Captain" of one of their civilian rescue teams. He was a prospective Olympic athlete when the Soviet Union boycotted the 1984 summer games in LA. As a result he missed his chance. He was not ethic Russian like many in the northeast but was a very patriotic nationalistic Ukrainian like those we met in the west and populating the then government who viewed the time spent in the Soviet Union as an occupation.

 

It is a very complicated internal landscape.

 

On a personal note when I think of beautiful St. Michael's Cathedral filled with wounded and dying.............its stunning.

 

  What's even more stunning is the things that went down before the Nazi's invaded. It's come out how Stalin issued his orders to cull the herd. He would just issue the local government a quota for dead people.  "20,000 by March 10, comrade....or it will be 20,001....."

 

 

 I suspect the young who have been the driving force behind these color revolutions are also strongly motivated by a desire to split away from the kleptocracy, or more precisely the mafiaocracy, that is the post-USSR economic system. It's bad stuff. Even for a strong man like Putin it is a problem that can only be managed, not solved. His all-out effort at Sochi is a plea for Western investment, an opening up, which would eventually undermine the mobs. Under the leadership of greedy pigs like they have in the Ukraine it's really, really hard to tolerate...at least for the city folk. 

 

  I wouldn't underestimate the desire to fight this one that lives in the countryside. They do not trust these kids, and have done well enough by Putin. I would not underestimate the desire of the Russian people as a whole to hold on to Odessa. Losing their Black Sea naval port?? This is almost certainly a deep, deep, red line. "Everything is on the table."  



#44 Battlecheese

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:57 PM

All you "stay out" weenies seem to be neglecting the fact that you're already way deep in.

#45 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:16 PM

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what NATOs interest is and I damn sure don't see our national interest without using a whole lot of what ifs to develop derivatives.  Mutual defense is one thing.  Expansion of the EU quite another.

 

Like much of eastern europe, the Russians assimilated with the community over time and many of those folks are now native born with cultural loyalties to Russia.  It looks like the Ukraine swings from one side to another with each election.

 

The problem is that if the EU decides to go in those members who are also in NATO may drag us in. 

Sorta....the modern country is a construct of various treaties not cultural homogeneity. Its not so much that Russians have assimilated over time as much as it is that certain regions are ethically Russian and steadfastly remain so. The current government is certainly Russian leaning. I have to say, nearly everyone I met was very interested in maintaining their distance from NATO, Russia and leaned toward the EU for affiliations. Most of what I have read and seen in the news outlets involve Ukrainians expressing their fear that if the current government continues its migration toward the Russian sphere that their freedoms of self determination will be lost forever. It is a very strong nationalistic notion in the minds of the younger non ethic Russian people.

 

Whether it is in NATO, the EU's or the USA's interests to not have Ukraine slip back into the Russian sphere is a question that certainly has several views. In the wake of the last decade of US foreign policy I hear a number of people advocating an inward isolationist view of US foreign policy.

 

350px-Ukraine-growth_zpsbc098adf.png

 

Well, the obvious solution would be to take it out of the hands of the EU, NATO, the remnants of the former Soviet Union and give it to the UN.

 

They could divide it into East/West or North/South, we have a war for a few years blowing the shit out of both sides and then leave them alone to re-unite or not.

 

Alternatively, the 'do nothing' strategy lets them re-unite or not without all the outsiders blowing the shit out of things.

I don't think anyone is contemplating or advocating military intervention. Of course, McCain hasn't visited yet............

 

Then why get NATO involved or even include them in the discussion.  I know there's been a lot of mission creep but it's still a military organization designed to kill people and break things.

I did not mention or suggest NATO was part of the solution.



#46 Point Break

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:30 PM

 

 

I'm not sure what the method of assistance might reasonably be but..........well here are a few statements excerpted from my link. Bold underline is my emphasis.

 

So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 

The big problem in a civil war: when you say Hey Ukraine, are you talking to the government or the opposition?

 

When their efforts involve killing each other, we can't exactly support both in their efforts at the same time, can we? I guess we could, but we shouldn't.

I agree with that. However if the purpose of our relationship is pointed at making emerging democracies successful, that would place us in the camp of the antigovernment protestors.............however the existing government was duly elected. interesting dilemma.

 

I found Ukraine very very interesting. On the first mission we were in the far northeastern portion of Ukraine. Those folks are still VERY close to their ethnic Russian roots. In fact at one of the exercises, several Russian military officers showed up unannounced and unwelcome by the Ukrainian folks we were working with. I have no idea how they got over the border (but we were not far from Russia at all). Western Ukraine and Kiev esp. is very western in its desires and appearance. They still hate the Russians (and Germans for that matter) for the acts committed during WW2. We toured the Museum of the Great Patriotic War in Kiev and were lucky enough to have a old (very old) english speaking docent take our small group through the museum. He had been a boy in western Ukraine during first the soviet "occupation" and starvation, then the Nazi occupation. His personal stories augmented the historical exhibits in a way that's hard to explain. One thing that is clear, they are a country divided in their views of the west and Russia.

 

I also met a guy who was the "Captain" of one of their civilian rescue teams. He was a prospective Olympic athlete when the Soviet Union boycotted the 1984 summer games in LA. As a result he missed his chance. He was not ethic Russian like many in the northeast but was a very patriotic nationalistic Ukrainian like those we met in the west and populating the then government who viewed the time spent in the Soviet Union as an occupation.

 

It is a very complicated internal landscape.

 

On a personal note when I think of beautiful St. Michael's Cathedral filled with wounded and dying.............its stunning.

 

  What's even more stunning is the things that went down before the Nazi's invaded. It's come out how Stalin issued his orders to cull the herd. He would just issue the local government a quota for dead people.  "20,000 by March 10, comrade....or it will be 20,001....."

 

 

 I suspect the young who have been the driving force behind these color revolutions are also strongly motivated by a desire to split away from the kleptocracy, or more precisely the mafiaocracy, that is the post-USSR economic system. It's bad stuff. Even for a strong man like Putin it is a problem that can only be managed, not solved. His all-out effort at Sochi is a plea for Western investment, an opening up, which would eventually undermine the mobs. Under the leadership of greedy pigs like they have in the Ukraine it's really, really hard to tolerate...at least for the city folk. 

 

  I wouldn't underestimate the desire to fight this one that lives in the countryside. They do not trust these kids, and have done well enough by Putin. I would not underestimate the desire of the Russian people as a whole to hold on to Odessa. Losing their Black Sea naval port?? This is almost certainly a deep, deep, red line. "Everything is on the table."  

I believe your observations are correct. First, when Stalin starved 7 million? Ukrainians to keep them from reaching for independence that cemented a strong anti Russian sentiment in western Ukraine that persists to this very day. One thing I noted on both my visits was that the Ukrainians did not want to be in ANYBODY's sphere of influence (with the notable exception of the people rural farmlands of northeastern Ukraine which looked and sounded EXACTLY like Russia). They clearly have had enough of being "occupied". They appreciated the US effort to support their emerging democracy but made no bones about the notion that they were their own country and they were not trading one occupier for another. I developed a strong respect for their views.



#47 Mark K

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:47 PM

 I see something similar to what happened in the American revolution that caused it to stop at what we call "Canada" today in the split to make "Ukrainia". There was a very bitter French sentiment here that they would not fall under the sway of the Puritan anti-Catholics that ran ours. Period. What Brits there were at the time were "just off the boat" and were also culturally distinct and wanted nothing to do with it. As long as they were not rabidly anti-American this all was and still is very broadly tolerated, and wisely so. 



#48 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:33 AM

PB - you're feeling a lot of what I felt when I first went to the Balkans. I hope we can figure out something to prevent a whole lot of suffering by folks on either side of the coin - but, my time there makes me pessimistic.   I suspect that we won't act 'til a "politically defendable humanitarian crisis" erupts, and by then, the damage will have been done. 

 

Lord - this is one time that I'd be REAL happy to be wrong. 



#49 kmccabe

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:37 AM

I am hoping we stay out of the Ukraine and Syria. We have no business screwing around in entangling alliances.

#50 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:56 AM

I am hoping we stay out of the Ukraine and Syria. We have no business screwing around in entangling alliances.

 

McCabe - I understand your sentiment - but, would suggest that we've already got an obligation to the folks in both places, by virtue of the promises we've made, and the examples we've set.... If we want to stand as the bastion of Democratic freedoms - then we've got a moral obligation to defend that principle.   If we want to stand up only when it suits our economic and political objectives? Well - it doesn't give us much room at the pulpit to preach. 

 

 

I've been LOTS of places - I've talked to LOTS of folks - and most of 'em want to have a government that respects and protects the individual - nobody wants to be expendable.   If THAT is what we're proffering as the basis for our moral high ground, we need to defend it on principle - w/out regard to politics or economics. 

 

(Cue BL - call me an idiot for thinkin' this way!)



#51 Clove Hitch

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:59 AM

I am hoping we stay out of the Ukraine and Syria. We have no business screwing around in entangling alliances.

 

McCabe - I understand your sentiment - but, would suggest that we've already got an obligation to the folks in both places, by virtue of the promises we've made, and the examples we've set.... If we want to stand as the bastion of Democratic freedoms - then we've got a moral obligation to defend that principle.   If we want to stand up only when it suits our economic and political objectives? Well - it doesn't give us much room at the pulpit to preach. 

 

So what should the US do right now regarding Ukraine?



#52 Saorsa

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:12 AM

I am hoping we stay out of the Ukraine and Syria. We have no business screwing around in entangling alliances.

 

McCabe - I understand your sentiment - but, would suggest that we've already got an obligation to the folks in both places, by virtue of the promises we've made, and the examples we've set.... If we want to stand as the bastion of Democratic freedoms - then we've got a moral obligation to defend that principle.   If we want to stand up only when it suits our economic and political objectives? Well - it doesn't give us much room at the pulpit to preach. 

 

 

I've been LOTS of places - I've talked to LOTS of folks - and most of 'em want to have a government that respects and protects the individual - nobody wants to be expendable.   If THAT is what we're proffering as the basis for our moral high ground, we need to defend it on principle - w/out regard to politics or economics. 

 

(Cue BL - call me an idiot for thinkin' this way!)

 

Then, we are already the example.  Unfortunately, freedom is bought with blood and it needs to be those who would be free.



#53 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:13 AM

 

I am hoping we stay out of the Ukraine and Syria. We have no business screwing around in entangling alliances.

 

McCabe - I understand your sentiment - but, would suggest that we've already got an obligation to the folks in both places, by virtue of the promises we've made, and the examples we've set.... If we want to stand as the bastion of Democratic freedoms - then we've got a moral obligation to defend that principle.   If we want to stand up only when it suits our economic and political objectives? Well - it doesn't give us much room at the pulpit to preach. 

 

So what should the US do right now regarding Ukraine?

 

Brudda - If I had an answer to that right now, I probably wouldn't be looking for a job. :-) 

 

In all seriousness - I think that our best approach is to apply political pressure to allow the dissidents to have an audience before an unbiased board - which means that the Ukrainian leadership wold have to cede some authority to the outcome of that board.   Such overtures to be predicated by a complete cessation of hostilities on behalf of the "offended parties" 

 

Military intervention at this point should be off the table. 

 

Your thoughts, sir? 



#54 kmccabe

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:24 AM

Stay the fuck out. I am tired of spilling our blood overseas. We are NOT the world's cop. We simply cannot afford it. Let China take care of them, or the UN with its vast resources.

#55 Saorsa

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:26 AM

Stay the fuck out. I am tired of spilling our blood overseas. We are NOT the world's cop. We simply cannot afford it. Let China take care of them, or the UN with its vast resources.

 

Dude, the only vast resource the UN has is us.



#56 kmccabe

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:32 AM

No it has the collective goodwill of all the Left.

#57 Saorsa

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:40 AM

No it has the collective goodwill of all the Left.

 

When I took accounting classes, I always thought goodwill was the money you spent and had nothing to show for it.



#58 Olsonist

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:54 AM

I don't think anyone is contemplating or advocating military intervention. Of course, McCain hasn't visited yet............


Well it turns out McCain visited in December and no one paid any attention. And he's now calling Obama naïve because ...? He wants sanctions on ...? Our trade totals about $2B.

http://thehill.com/b...dent-in-history

Yeah, this was talk radio crap in AZ in case McOld decides to run for re-election. But has he ever been right about anything?

#59 Tom Ray

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:23 AM

... I have to say, nearly everyone I met was very interested in maintaining their distance from NATO, Russia and leaned toward the EU for affiliations....

 

Whether it is in NATO, the EU's or the USA's interests to not have Ukraine slip back into the Russian sphere is a question that certainly has several views. In the wake of the last decade of US foreign policy I hear a number of people advocating an inward isolationist view of US foreign policy.

 

350px-Ukraine-growth_zpsbc098adf.png

 


The US and Russia are vying for influence in a place where most people want nothing to do with either of us?

 

So whoever "wins" will wind up with grudging subjects. Where's that Charlie Sheen winning graphic again?

 

 

All you "stay out" weenies seem to be neglecting the fact that you're already way deep in.

 



No time like the present to head for shore then.



#60 learningj24

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:45 AM

The US track record for getting involved in others civil wars is not very good.  Unless there is a vital and pressing national interest in getting involved, the best course is probably to let them sort it out.



#61 cmilliken

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:17 PM

http://www.zerohedge...official-admits



#62 kmccabe

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:32 PM

I don't think anyone is contemplating or advocating military intervention. Of course, McCain hasn't visited yet............


We need to revoke his passport.

#63 Olsonist

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:06 PM

I don't think anyone is contemplating or advocating military intervention. Of course, McCain hasn't visited yet............

We need to revoke his passport.

No fly list?

#64 kmccabe

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:13 PM

I think he just needs to retire permanently. Not like Jimmah...

#65 Bus Driver

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:18 PM

Fingers crossed.

 

http://news.yahoo.co...36733.html?vp=1



#66 TMSAIL

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:24 PM

Fingers crossed.
 
http://news.yahoo.co...36733.html?vp=1


Wishful thinking. Many of the recent killings were executions with sniper bullets to the head. I share your hope, but I'm thinking there will be no solution that talks about new elections with no date or plan to hold those elections. Only the resignation of the president will appease them.

#67 cmus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:44 PM


I am hoping we stay out of the Ukraine and Syria. We have no business screwing around in entangling alliances.

 
McCabe - I understand your sentiment - but, would suggest that we've already got an obligation to the folks in both places, by virtue of the promises we've made, and the examples we've set.... If we want to stand as the bastion of Democratic freedoms - then we've got a moral obligation to defend that principle.   If we want to stand up only when it suits our economic and political objectives? Well - it doesn't give us much room at the pulpit to preach. 
 
 
I've been LOTS of places - I've talked to LOTS of folks - and most of 'em want to have a government that respects and protects the individual - nobody wants to be expendable.   If THAT is what we're proffering as the basis for our moral high ground, we need to defend it on principle - w/out regard to politics or economics. 
 
(Cue BL - call me an idiot for thinkin' this way!)
 
I  think that you are not an idiot but more of a not so well informed idealist.
 
US government acts in what it perceives to be its own self interest, that is a fact. Promises to others are kept only as long as they are exploitable; just look at the history of US deceits.
 
America does many things better than other nations so there is no need for us to comfort ourselves by attempting to justify our faults with the false bluster of exceptionalism.
 
Since Saint Ragen's propaganda quote describing America as " ... a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere" is a bought and paid for public relations myth, America has no right to preach on the moral pulpit.
 
One only has to examine how US recent responded to the Egyptian military coup d'etat against a government that was just elected in open and monitored elections and the dictatorial rule by the Egyptian army since then.
 
Compare and contrast the US government and American mainstream media bias regarding events in Syria and Ukraine that are within the Russian Federation sphere of influence and events in Bahrain that is within US sphere of influence. Fair and balanced? Hardly.
 

#68 cmilliken

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:17 PM

http://www.zerohedge...plained-one-map

 

Russia will never willingly let Ukraine control it's own destiny IMHO.



#69 cmus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:03 PM

http://www.zerohedge...plained-one-map

 

Russia will never willingly let Ukraine control it's own destiny IMHO.

 

I have no issues with your opinion, but the expert authority that is quoted in your link is not only a moron but a convicted criminal.

 

From: https://en.wikipedia...in_A._Armstrong

 

"In September 1999, Armstrong faced prosecution by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission for fraud. During the trial, Armstrong was imprisoned for over seven years for civil contempt of court, one of the longest-running cases of civil contempt in American legal history.[1] In August 2006, Armstrong pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit fraud, and began a five-year sentence.[2]"

 

Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe.

 

The fact is that neither Ukraine nor Eastern Europe will get any energy from Russian Federation if Ukraine chooses to fall for the false promises by European Union giants. Ukraine needs to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the European Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line.

 

For many Ukrainians the choice is simple; a senior partner in the Russian Federation or just another small fish in the European Union.

 

As for Eastern European countries dependent on energy supplied by Russian Federation through pipelines running through Ukraine, they will not want to poke the bear in the eye and have the gas valves shut off or pay significantly higher price for fuel.


Edited by cmus, 21 February 2014 - 06:27 PM.


#70 Saorsa

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:11 PM


http://www.zerohedge...plained-one-map

 

Russia will never willingly let Ukraine control it's own destiny IMHO.

 

I have no issues with your opinion, but the author of your link is not only a moron but a convicted criminal.

 

From: https://en.wikipedia...in_A._Armstrong

 

"In September 1999, Armstrong faced prosecution by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission for fraud. During the trial, Armstrong was imprisoned for over seven years for civil contempt of court, one of the longest-running cases of civil contempt in American legal history.[1] In August 2006, Armstrong pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit fraud, and began a five-year sentence.[2]"

 

The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line.

 

For many Ukrainians the choice is simple; a senior partner in the Russian Federation or just another small fish in the European Union.

 

You mean the Russians didn't control them through fear?  I would think the threat of invasion to keep the Russian Black Sea fleet stationed in the Ukraine would constitute fear.



#71 cmus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:40 PM

 


http://www.zerohedge...plained-one-map

 

Russia will never willingly let Ukraine control it's own destiny IMHO.

 

I have no issues with your opinion, but the author of your link is not only a moron but a convicted criminal.

 

From: https://en.wikipedia...in_A._Armstrong

 

"In September 1999, Armstrong faced prosecution by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission for fraud. During the trial, Armstrong was imprisoned for over seven years for civil contempt of court, one of the longest-running cases of civil contempt in American legal history.[1] In August 2006, Armstrong pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit fraud, and began a five-year sentence.[2]"

 

The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line.

 

For many Ukrainians the choice is simple; a senior partner in the Russian Federation or just another small fish in the European Union.

 

You mean the Russians didn't control them through fear?  I would think the threat of invasion to keep the Russian Black Sea fleet stationed in the Ukraine would constitute fear.

 

Please cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear".



#72 Saorsa

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:30 PM

 

 


http://www.zerohedge...plained-one-map

 

Russia will never willingly let Ukraine control it's own destiny IMHO.

 

I have no issues with your opinion, but the author of your link is not only a moron but a convicted criminal.

 

From: https://en.wikipedia...in_A._Armstrong

 

"In September 1999, Armstrong faced prosecution by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission for fraud. During the trial, Armstrong was imprisoned for over seven years for civil contempt of court, one of the longest-running cases of civil contempt in American legal history.[1] In August 2006, Armstrong pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit fraud, and began a five-year sentence.[2]"

 

The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line.

 

For many Ukrainians the choice is simple; a senior partner in the Russian Federation or just another small fish in the European Union.

 

You mean the Russians didn't control them through fear?  I would think the threat of invasion to keep the Russian Black Sea fleet stationed in the Ukraine would constitute fear.

 

Please cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear".

 

You probably shouldn't have used threats and fear in regard to the EU if you don't think the russians are not.  Incidentally, nobody was a senior partner in the Soviet Union.



#73 cmus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:20 PM

 

 

 


http://www.zerohedge...plained-one-map

 

Russia will never willingly let Ukraine control it's own destiny IMHO.

 

I have no issues with your opinion, but the author of your link is not only a moron but a convicted criminal.

 

From: https://en.wikipedia...in_A._Armstrong

 

"In September 1999, Armstrong faced prosecution by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission for fraud. During the trial, Armstrong was imprisoned for over seven years for civil contempt of court, one of the longest-running cases of civil contempt in American legal history.[1] In August 2006, Armstrong pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit fraud, and began a five-year sentence.[2]"

 

The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line.

 

For many Ukrainians the choice is simple; a senior partner in the Russian Federation or just another small fish in the European Union.

 

You mean the Russians didn't control them through fear?  I would think the threat of invasion to keep the Russian Black Sea fleet stationed in the Ukraine would constitute fear.

 

Please cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear".

 

You probably shouldn't have used threats and fear in regard to the EU if you don't think the russians are not.  Incidentally, nobody was a senior partner in the Soviet Union.


Still waiting for you to cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear". Failing to prove your false claim confirms that you are an unrepentant liar.

 

It is obvious that your mind is mired in the past whenever you refer to the Soviet Union, a country that has not existed for many years. Perhaps you should fast forward to the 21st century.

 

Here is an article described as 'Washington's Warmongers are Pushing for a Wider Conflict' that you will not find in the American main stream media. First three paragraphs are especially instructive to those of your ilk.

 

 

Is Ukraine Drifting Toward Civil War?

 

by PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

People ask for solutions, but no solutions are possible in a disinformed world. Populations almost everywhere are dissatisfied, but few have any comprehension of the real situation. Before there can be solutions, people must know the truth about the problems.  For those few inclined to be messengers, it is largely a thankless task.


The assumption that man is a rational animal is incorrect. He and she are emotional creatures, not Dr. Spock of Star Trek. Humans are brainwashed by enculturation and indoctrination. Patriots respond with hostility toward criticisms of their governments, their countries, their hopes and their delusions. Their emotions throttle facts, should any reach them. Aspirations and delusions prevail over truth. Most people want to be told what they want to hear. Consequently, they are always gullible and their illusions and self-delusions make them easy victims of propaganda. This is true of all levels of societies and of the leaders themselves.

We are witnessing this today in western Ukraine where a mixture of witless university students, pawns in Washington’s drive for world hegemony, together with paid protesters and fascistic elements among ultra-nationalists are bringing great troubles upon Ukraine and perhaps a deadly war upon the world.


Many of the protesters are just the unemployed collecting easy money. It is the witless idealistic types that are destroying the independence of their country. Victoria Nuland, the American neoconservative Assistant Secretary of State, whose agenda is US world hegemony, told the Ukrainians what was in store for them last December 13, but the protesters were too delusional to hear.

In an eight minute, 46 second speech at the National Press Club sponsored by the US-Ukraine Foundation, Chevron, and Ukraine-in-Washington Lobby Group, Nuland boasted that Washington has spent $5 billion to foment agitation to bring Ukraine into the EU. Once captured by the EU, Ukraine will be “helped” by the West acting through the IMF. Nuland, of course, presented the IMF as Ukraine’s rescuer, not as the iron hand of the West that will squeeze all life out of Ukraine’s struggling economy.


Nuland’s audience consisted of all the people who will be enriched by the looting and by connections to a Washington-appointed Ukrainian government. Just look at the large Chevron sign next to which Nuland speaks, and you will know what it is all about.

Nuland’s speech failed to alert the Ukraine protesters, who are determined to destroy the independence of Ukraine and to place their country in the hands of the IMF so that it can be looted like Latvia, Greece and every country that ever had an IMF structural adjustment program. All the monies that protesters are paid by the US and EU will soon be given back manyfold as Ukraine is “adjusted” by Western looting.

In her short speech the neoconservative agitator Nuland alleged that the protesters whom Washington has spent $5 billion cultivating were protesting “peacefully with enormous restraint” against a brutal government.


According to RT, which has much more credibility than the US State Department (remember Secretary of State Colin Powell’s address to the UN setting up the US invasion of Iraq with his “evidence” of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, a speech Powell later disavowed as Bush regime disinformation) Ukrainian rioters have seized 1,500 guns, 100,000 rounds of ammunition, 3 machine guns, and grenades from military armories.

The human-rights trained Ukrainian police have permitted the violence to get out of hand.  A number of police have been burned by Molotov cocktails. The latest report is that 108 police have been shot.  A number are dead and 63 are in critical condition. http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kiev-firearms-weapons-police-934/   These casualties are the products of Nuland’s “peacefully protesting protesters acting with enormous restraint.” On February 20, the elected, independent Ukraine government responded to the rioters use of firearms by allowing police to use firearms in self-defense.


Perhaps the Russophobic western Ukrainians deserve the IMF, and perhaps the EU deserves the extreme nationalists who are trying to topple the Ukraine government.  Once Ukrainians experience being looted by the West, they will be on their knees begging  Russia to rescue them.  The only certain thing is that it is unlikely that the Russian part of Ukraine will remain part of Ukraine.

During the Soviet era, parts of Russia herself, such as the Crimea, were placed into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, perhaps in order to increase the Russian population in Ukraine. In other words, a large part of today’s Ukraine–eastern and southern provinces–are traditional Russian territory, not part of historical Ukraine.


Until Russia granted Ukraine independence in the early 1990s, Ukraine had experienced scant independence since the 14th century and had been a part of Russia for 200 years. The problem with the grant of independence is that much of Ukraine is not Ukrainian. It is Russian.

As I have reported previously, Russia regards the prospect of Ukraine as a member of the EU with NATO with US bases on Russia’s frontier as a “strategic threat.”  It is unlikely that the Russian government and the Russian territories in Ukraine will accept Washington’s plan for Ukraine. Whatever their intention, Secretary of State John Kerry’s provocative statements are raising tensions and fomenting war.  The vast bulk of the American and Western populations have no idea of what the real situation is, because all they hear from the “free press” is the neoconservative propaganda line.


Washington’s lies are destroying not only civil liberties at home and countries abroad, but are raising dangerous alarms in Russia about the country’s security. If Washington succeeds in overthrowing the Ukrainian government, the eastern and southern provinces are likely to secede. If secession becomes a civil war instead of a peaceful divorce, Russia would not be able to sit on the sidelines.  As the Washington warmongers would be backing western Ukraine, the two nuclear powers would be thrown into military conflict.

The Ukrainian and Russian governments allowed this dangerous situation to develop, because they naively permitted for many years billions of US dollars to flow into their countries where the money was used to create fifth columns under the guise of educational and human rights organizations, the real purpose of which is to destabilize both countries. The consequence of the trust Ukrainians and Russians placed in the West is the prospect of civil and wider war.

 

------------------------------

Paul Craig Roberts is a former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury and Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal.


Edited by cmus, 21 February 2014 - 09:46 PM.


#74 Saorsa

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:41 PM

 

 

 


 

I have no issues with your opinion, but the author of your link is not only a moron but a convicted criminal.

 

From: https://en.wikipedia...in_A._Armstrong

 

"In September 1999, Armstrong faced prosecution by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission for fraud. During the trial, Armstrong was imprisoned for over seven years for civil contempt of court, one of the longest-running cases of civil contempt in American legal history.[1] In August 2006, Armstrong pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit fraud, and began a five-year sentence.[2]"

 

The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line.

 

For many Ukrainians the choice is simple; a senior partner in the Russian Federation or just another small fish in the European Union.

 

You mean the Russians didn't control them through fear?  I would think the threat of invasion to keep the Russian Black Sea fleet stationed in the Ukraine would constitute fear.

 

Please cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear".

 

You probably shouldn't have used threats and fear in regard to the EU if you don't think the russians are not.  Incidentally, nobody was a senior partner in the Soviet Union.


Still waiting for you to cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear". Failing to prove your false claim confirms that you are an unrepentant liar.

 

It is obvious that your mind is mired in the past whenever you refer to the Soviet Union, a country that has not existed for many years. Perhaps you should fast forward to the 21st century.

 

Well, you can wait for a long time because, obviously,  you did not use those exact words.  You did however us threats and fear as the tactics of the EU.  Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic.

 

What is it?  What is this clever tactic?

 

As to the Soviet Union you only need to look at Russian actions in regard to former conquered member states in recent years to see that Putin's goal is re-establishment of control.  Yeah, you can call yourself a separate country as long as you let us keep our bases there.  I'm sure they just need a little bit of each of them with a bit more control to ensure their own security.  There will be peace in our time if we just let that happen. 

 

Hell, the invasion of Georgia was 7 or 8 years ago, Chechnya was 1999.  Yeah, they are much more modern now.  They would never use those old tactics again.



#75 Point Break

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:20 PM

Its good to see the possibility of some positive movement in the situation. I think perhaps I have trouble with a dispassionate view of what is happening there. After two missions to Ukraine I have a perception of the people and their values. The picture and story below is one example.

 

So at one of the disaster exercises there were a couple engines from the local "fire department". Their public safety is an odd mix of military like structures and "public" agencies. So when they found out there were several fire chiefs from the USA on the team they wanted to meet one. I went over to their location and was shown around two of the most ill equipped ancient fire engines I had ever laid eyes on. So they show me their equipment and I am of course suitably impressed and ask questions about their operations through my interpreter. At one point the guy on left who was clearly in charge of that crew stepped up and pointed at himself and then his two crew members and said in very clear English "fucking best". I laughed my ass off and nodded affirmatively and said "yes, fucking best". We then posed for the picture below. I felt privileged to meet these guys who were so clearly proud of their jobs and their country. I'd take them on my crew any day. I probably have 50+ stories just like that over the two missions that left me with 1) a very real awareness of their patriotism and pride (you can bet not one of them doesn't vote because they think it meaningless) in their young nation and ancient culture. 2) Knowing that about them, when I see them in the streets of Kiev fighting for that freedom of self determination they do not seem disembodied statistics to me, but patriots fighting for their country.

 

Perhaps I'm not in a position to dispassionately evaluate the course forward.

 

008_zps4c014fd3.png

 

 



#76 cmus

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:18 AM

Its good to see the possibility of some positive movement in the situation. I think perhaps I have trouble with a dispassionate view of what is happening there. After two missions to Ukraine I have a perception of the people and their values. The picture and story below is one example.

 

So at one of the disaster exercises there were a couple engines from the local "fire department". Their public safety is an odd mix of military like structures and "public" agencies. So when they found out there were several fire chiefs from the USA on the team they wanted to meet one. I went over to their location and was shown around two of the most ill equipped ancient fire engines I had ever laid eyes on. So they show me their equipment and I am of course suitably impressed and ask questions about their operations through my interpreter. At one point the guy on left who was clearly in charge of that crew stepped up and pointed at himself and then his two crew members and said in very clear English "fucking best". I laughed my ass off and nodded affirmatively and said "yes, fucking best". We then posed for the picture below. I felt privileged to meet these guys who were so clearly proud of their jobs and their country. I'd take them on my crew any day. I probably have 50+ stories just like that over the two missions that left me with 1) a very real awareness of their patriotism and pride (you can bet not one of them doesn't vote because they think it meaningless) in their young nation and ancient culture. 2) Knowing that about them, when I see them in the streets of Kiev fighting for that freedom of self determination they do not seem disembodied statistics to me, but patriots fighting for their country.

 

Perhaps I'm not in a position to dispassionately evaluate the course forward.

 

008_zps4c014fd3.png

 

 

Great story.

 

Your Ukrainian friends may be in Kiev, but being firemen one would hope that they would be acting as professionals; firefighters rather than arsonists.



#77 cmus

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:22 AM

 

 

 

 

You mean the Russians didn't control them through fear?  I would think the threat of invasion to keep the Russian Black Sea fleet stationed in the Ukraine would constitute fear.

 

Please cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear".

 

You probably shouldn't have used threats and fear in regard to the EU if you don't think the russians are not.  Incidentally, nobody was a senior partner in the Soviet Union.


Still waiting for you to cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear". Failing to prove your false claim confirms that you are an unrepentant liar.

 

It is obvious that your mind is mired in the past whenever you refer to the Soviet Union, a country that has not existed for many years. Perhaps you should fast forward to the 21st century.

 

Well, you can wait for a long time because, obviously,  you did not use those exact words.

 

Now that you finally admitted  that you lied previously, the next baby step is to apologize  like a man instead of whining like a petulant child.

 

You did however us[e] threats and fear as the tactics of the EU.  Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic. What is it?  What is this clever tactic?


I posted  and stand by the facts that EU and its IMF strong arm uses threats and fears. If you had bothered to read the article that I posted you would have found examples of such coercions. "The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line."                                                                                                                                                           Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic. What is it?  What is this clever tactic? Your presumption is both incorrect and illogical. mmmmJust because I believe that EU uses threats and fear as a tactic that does not mean that I believe that Russian Federation does not. Logic is not your forte. As to the Soviet Union you only need to look at Russian actions in regard to former conquered member states in recent years to see that Putin's goal is re-establishment of control.   You are again refearing to a Soviet Union, a country that ceased to exist two decades ago. Isn't it about time that you advance into the 21st century? Yeah, you can call yourself a separate country as long as you let us keep our bases there.  I'm sure they just need a little bit of each of them with a bit more control to ensure their own security.  There will be peace in our time if we just let that happen. Do you mean like US military bases in the the countries that have borders with Russian Federation, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, etc ? 

 

Hell, the invasion of Georgia was 7 or 8 years ago, Chechnya was 1999.  Yeah, they are much more modern now.  They would never use those old tactics again.

 

Do you mean tactics like attacking Vietnam, Cambodia, Granada, Panama, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq (twice for good measure), and destabilizing Iran, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Colombia, Libya, and Syria ?

Did I forget anyone ?



#78 Saorsa

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:32 AM

 

 


Still waiting for you to cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear". Failing to prove your false claim confirms that you are an unrepentant liar.

 

It is obvious that your mind is mired in the past whenever you refer to the Soviet Union, a country that has not existed for many years. Perhaps you should fast forward to the 21st century.

 

Well, you can wait for a long time because, obviously,  you did not use those exact words.

 

Now that you finally admitted  that you lied previously, the next baby step is to apologize  like a man instead of whining like a petulant child.

m

m

You did however us[e] threats and fear as the tactics of the EU.  Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic. What is it?  What is this clever tactic?

I posted  and stand by the facts that EU and its IMF strong arm uses threats and fears. If you had bothered to read the article that I posted you would have found examples of such coercions. "The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line."Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic. What is it?  What is this clever tactic? Your presumption is both incorrect and illogical. Just because I believe that EU uses threats and fear as a tactic that does not mean that I believe that Russian Federation does not. Logic is not your forte. As to the Soviet Union you only need to look at Russian actions in regard to former conquered member states in recent years to see that Putin's goal is re-establishment of control.   You are again refearing to a Soviet Union, a country that ceased to exist two decades ago. Isn't it about time that you advance into the 21st century? Yeah, you can call yourself a separate country as long as you let us keep our bases there.  I'm sure they just need a little bit of each of them with a bit more control to ensure their own security.  There will be peace in our time if we just let that happen. Do you mean like US military bases in the the countries that have borders with Russian Federation, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, etc ? 

Hell, the invasion of Georgia was 7 or 8 years ago, Chechnya was 1999.  Yeah, they are much more modern now.  They would never use those old tactics again.

Do you mean tactics like attacking Vietnam, Cambodia, Granada, Panama, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq (twice for good measure), and destabilizing Iran, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Colombia, Libya, and Syria ? Did I forget anyone ?

 

Are you saying that the Russians don't use fear and intimidation?

 

Looks like you are a big Putin fan.



#79 GRUMPY

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:42 AM

George.



#80 TMSAIL

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:06 AM


George.

yep called that a few days ago.

#81 kmccabe

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:10 AM

I don't believe in censorship he has a right to be back.

#82 cmus

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:14 AM

 

 

 


Still waiting for you to cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear". Failing to prove your false claim confirms that you are an unrepentant liar.

 

It is obvious that your mind is mired in the past whenever you refer to the Soviet Union, a country that has not existed for many years. Perhaps you should fast forward to the 21st century.

 

Well, you can wait for a long time because, obviously,  you did not use those exact words.

 

Now that you finally admitted  that you lied previously, the next baby step is to apologize  like a man instead of whining like a petulant child.

m

m

You did however us[e] threats and fear as the tactics of the EU.  Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic. What is it?  What is this clever tactic?

I posted  and stand by the facts that EU and its IMF strong arm uses threats and fears. If you had bothered to read the article that I posted you would have found examples of such coercions. "The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line."Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic. What is it?  What is this clever tactic? Your presumption is both incorrect and illogical. Just because I believe that EU uses threats and fear as a tactic that does not mean that I believe that Russian Federation does not. Logic is not your forte. As to the Soviet Union you only need to look at Russian actions in regard to former conquered member states in recent years to see that Putin's goal is re-establishment of control.   You are again refearing to a Soviet Union, a country that ceased to exist two decades ago. Isn't it about time that you advance into the 21st century? Yeah, you can call yourself a separate country as long as you let us keep our bases there.  I'm sure they just need a little bit of each of them with a bit more control to ensure their own security.  There will be peace in our time if we just let that happen. Do you mean like US military bases in the the countries that have borders with Russian Federation, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, etc ? 

Hell, the invasion of Georgia was 7 or 8 years ago, Chechnya was 1999.  Yeah, they are much more modern now.  They would never use those old tactics again.

Do you mean tactics like attacking Vietnam, Cambodia, Granada, Panama, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq (twice for good measure), and destabilizing Iran, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Colombia, Libya, and Syria ? Did I forget anyone ?

 

 

Are you saying that the Russians don't use fear and intimidation?

On numerous occasions I have answered that question and also clarified that I never said "that the Russians don't use fear and intimidation".

 

Looks like you are a big Putin fan.

What a stupid remark; you are wrong again !

It is obvious that you are so biased and blind that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that both USA and the Russian Federation are playing power games.

It would be a more interesting match if GB1 was the POTUS, since Putin play well with the meager resources that he inherited from that drunkard Boris Yeltsin.

Get over the myth of American Exceptionalism and stop drinking the neocon Kool-Aid.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Edited by cmus, 22 February 2014 - 02:25 AM.


#83 Saorsa

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:29 AM

 

 

 

 


Still waiting for you to cite where I posted that the "Russians didn't control them through fear". Failing to prove your false claim confirms that you are an unrepentant liar.

 

It is obvious that your mind is mired in the past whenever you refer to the Soviet Union, a country that has not existed for many years. Perhaps you should fast forward to the 21st century.

 

Well, you can wait for a long time because, obviously,  you did not use those exact words.

 

Now that you finally admitted  that you lied previously, the next baby step is to apologize  like a man instead of whining like a petulant child.

m

m

You did however us[e] threats and fear as the tactics of the EU.  Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic. What is it?  What is this clever tactic?

I posted  and stand by the facts that EU and its IMF strong arm uses threats and fears. If you had bothered to read the article that I posted you would have found examples of such coercions. "The fact is that Ukraine desperately needs fuel from the Russian Federation just as much if not more than Eastern Europe, and neither will get any if Ukraine chooses the fall for the false promises by European Union giants. They need to look at the negative experience of others who were lured by the Common Market only to be dominated by threats and fears of being dumped if they refuse to toe the line."Presumably that would mean that the Russia are using some other tactic. What is it?  What is this clever tactic? Your presumption is both incorrect and illogical. Just because I believe that EU uses threats and fear as a tactic that does not mean that I believe that Russian Federation does not. Logic is not your forte. As to the Soviet Union you only need to look at Russian actions in regard to former conquered member states in recent years to see that Putin's goal is re-establishment of control.   You are again refearing to a Soviet Union, a country that ceased to exist two decades ago. Isn't it about time that you advance into the 21st century? Yeah, you can call yourself a separate country as long as you let us keep our bases there.  I'm sure they just need a little bit of each of them with a bit more control to ensure their own security.  There will be peace in our time if we just let that happen. Do you mean like US military bases in the the countries that have borders with Russian Federation, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, etc ? 

Hell, the invasion of Georgia was 7 or 8 years ago, Chechnya was 1999.  Yeah, they are much more modern now.  They would never use those old tactics again.

Do you mean tactics like attacking Vietnam, Cambodia, Granada, Panama, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq (twice for good measure), and destabilizing Iran, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Colombia, Libya, and Syria ? Did I forget anyone ?

 

 

Are you saying that the Russians don't use fear and intimidation?

On numerous occasions I have answered that question and also clarified that I never said "that the Russians don't use fear and intimidation".

 

Looks like you are a big Putin fan.

What a stupid remark; you are wrong again !

It is obvious that you are so biased and blind that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that both USA and the Russian Federation are playing power games.

It would be a more interesting match if GB1 was the POTUS, since Putin play well with the meager resources that he inherited from that drunkard Boris Yeltsin.

Get over the myth of American Exceptionalism and stop drinking the neocon Kool-Aid.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

So what?

 

I've said above I don't see any US National Interest in the Ukraine.  If our only interest is in keeping Russia from having it then our dear leader is as stupid as you are.



#84 frenchie

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:32 AM

the game that American elites invented; transfer of all wealth from many to few.

 


dude.  seriously?  that game is a LOT older than America.



#85 Olsonist

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:33 AM

And McOld calls Obama naïve?

http://www.businessi...ukraine-2013-12

#86 frenchie

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:41 AM

I don't think anyone is contemplating or advocating military intervention. Of course, McCain hasn't visited yet............


Well it turns out McCain visited in December and no one paid any attention. And he's now calling Obama naïve because ...? He wants sanctions on ...? Our trade totals about $2B.

http://thehill.com/b...dent-in-history

Yeah, this was talk radio crap in AZ in case McOld decides to run for re-election. But has he ever been right about anything?

 


torture.



#87 JBSF

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:14 AM

I'm not sure what the method of assistance might reasonably be but..........well here are a few statements excerpted from my link. Bold underline is my emphasis.

 

So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 

In other words "our word is as good as....................well nothing".

 

I'm not sure completely where I stand on the Ukraine thing and how involved we need to be.  But I think I lean far more to sticking to our word of helping a strategic partner and supporting an emerging democracy than letting them rot on the vine and get steamrolled by Russian armor. 

 

Interesting personal story, we hosted a Ukrainian Air Force visit to our base in the late 90s.  They flew 4 of their SU-27s over and my Sq hosted them at our base in NC.  We all drank LOTS of vodka with them in our Sq bar.  They were amazingly nice people, extremely proud to be Ukrainian again and not part of Russia anymore. 

 

The problem is that Putin will never let them go to the EU because that is Russia's breadbasket.  And it access to the Black Sea.  Ukraine is too strategically important to Russia to allow them to split out of their sphere of influence.  Being in the EU and/ore NATO is far to big a threat to Russia and I believe Russia would have ZERO compunction against going to war to keep that from happening. 


So back to what to do......  I say we come out unequivocally on the side of the opposition and against the brutal crackdown.  Really force Yani to back down - maybe through the use of sanctions.  But I think sanctions would have a limited impact with Russian being able to step in and pick up a lot of the slack.  If it does go full CW, I say we don't get directly involved but we also make it VERY clear to Putin that they better not send tanks in themselves.  If he does, that where it gets really hairy.  I don't think we draw Red Lines again - but I think all options are and should be on the table.  We can't be FOR democracy and then abandon those that are really trying just because we might get our hair a bit mussed.  Ukraine is not a shithole, non-strategic country like Afghanistan or Yemen.  This is the real deal.

 

I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions..... because simply saying "stay out completely" is an idiot.  Sorry km et al.  Because to say that implies that the US is irrelevant in the world.  We should "stay out" of Syria and other shitholes where we don't have a real stake.  But Ukraine is not one of those cases.



#88 JBSF

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:31 AM

On a related topic..... when I clicked on this Ukraine thread, the google banner ad at the top said:

 

Open the Way to Russia Girls. Blonds, Brunettes & Acres of Fun!

 

Coincidence?  BTW.... "acres of fun"???  WTF does that mean?  Are they fat Russian girls?



#89 Mark K

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:33 AM

Talked to my Russian drywall contractor today for a bit. His imput was the rebs are a mix, some of them are just fed up with the kleptocracy that just set about klepping themselves some more power, and those guys have Klitchko (ex heavy weight champ) as their spokesman. The rest he said were "fucking Nazis". A revolution with those guys doing most of the fighting is "a monkey with a hand grenade".  The government he described with roughly equal disgust. Said the best hope is this incident scares the crap out of them, they ditch the incompetent greedy clown that is both President and the mafia's puppet, and clean up their act in a big way. 

 

 However, if the rebs don't accept that, they will be crushed. 



#90 Tom Ray

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:47 AM

...We can't be FOR democracy and then abandon those that are really trying just because we might get our hair a bit mussed.  ...

 


What if some of those trying are "fucking Nazis" and are not so much trying for "democracy" but trying to oust those friendly to Russia?

 

If they win, they become "our fucking Nazis" and we get to engage in nation-building.

 

Except they won't win, simply because Russia cares a lot more about the Ukraine than we ever could. We would never let them establish a puppet government in Mexico.



#91 Saorsa

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:50 PM

On a related topic..... when I clicked on this Ukraine thread, the google banner ad at the top said:

 

 

Open the Way to Russia Girls. Blonds, Brunettes & Acres of Fun!

 

Coincidence?  BTW.... "acres of fun"???  WTF does that mean?  Are they fat Russian girls?

 

See, the Russians are trying to take that over too.



#92 Saorsa

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:57 PM

So our response is "Hey Ukraine....I get that we're strategic partners and that we have been working together to solidify your emerging democracy for the past 10 years and have pledged our support in your efforts in that journey.....but now things look a little sticky so...........we're out".

 

We have been supporting their emerging democracy for the last 10 years.  That's the government the riots are against.  But, it doesn't seem to be one that has aligned itself with our interests (whatever they may be) and their own populace is attempting to overthrow them.

 

Which side are we on with this one and why?

 

I've been to a lot of places in the world and met a lot of nice people.  I can't say the same of governments although some are better than others.

 

The nice firemen are probably very busy right now. The nice fighter pilots don't seem to be yet but if they get busy it's going to be on the side of the government.



#93 cmus

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:06 PM

Talked to my Russian drywall contractor today for a bit. His imput was the rebs are a mix, some of them are just fed up with the kleptocracy that just set about klepping themselves some more power, and those guys have Klitchko (ex heavy weight champ) as their spokesman. The rest he said were "fucking Nazis". A revolution with those guys doing most of the fighting is "a monkey with a hand grenade".  The government he described with roughly equal disgust. Said the best hope is this incident scares the crap out of them, they ditch the incompetent greedy clown that is both President and the mafia's puppet, and clean up their act in a big way. 

 

 However, if the rebs don't accept that, they will be crushed. 

 

I agree with your Russian drywall contractor, he makes a lot more sense than many who post here but couldn't locate Ukraine on a map if their life depended on it..

 

For answers to most questions, follow the money.



#94 cmus

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:42 PM

There are at least two sides to every story and often more.

 

 

Ukraine divided over WWII legacy

image001-png_162613.png
By MARIA DANILOVA August 1, 2013 6:07 AM
 
4f6b6b69b7953919390f6a706700e9d5.jpg

CHERVONE, Ukraine (AP) — Ukrainians dressed in Nazi SS uniform trudge through trenches and fire model rifles in a reconstruction of a key battle against the Soviets during World War II. An Orthodox priest leads a ceremony for fallen soldiers of the Nazi unit, sprinkling his blessing over several men sporting swastikas who lower a coffin in a ritual reburial.

 

The scenes were part of commemorations last week of soldiers many Ukrainian nationalists — along with a smattering of hardcore ultra-rightists — hail as heroes. The men they are honoring belonged to the SS Galician division, a Nazi military unit made up mostly of Ukrainians, which fought Soviet troops during World War II.

 

More than 20 years since gaining independence from the Soviet Union, Ukraine remains painfully divided over the legacy of World War II and the actions of Ukrainian nationalist fighters, who are honored as heroes by some and condemned as traitors by others. Some of those fighters served under or cooperated with the Nazis, seeing a chance to overthrow the Soviet regime, while others fought both the Red Army and the Nazis.

 

"Ukraine is in our souls and hearts," said SS Galician division veteran Mykhailo Yamulyk, a gray-haired man in his late 80s, before the remains of some of his fellow soldiers were reburied in coffins draped with the yellow-and-blue Ukrainian flag at a cemetery in this small village in western Ukraine. "Those who say that we wore German uniform — yes, we did, and our weapons were German, but our hearts were full of Ukrainian blood and we never betrayed it."

 

One of Yamulyk's fellow SS Galician veterans is Michael Karkoc, a Minnesota man shown in an Associated Press investigation to have commanded a Nazi-led unit accused of atrocities. The annual commemorations of the Galician give an insight into the complex reaction that the Karkoc revelations have produced in Ukraine, in contrast to the near universal outrage they have stirred up in Poland, Germany and the United States.

 

Each year, competing rallies commemorating World War II are held throughout Ukraine, sometimes resulting in brawls. Much of the Russian-speaking east of the country celebrates the Red Army's victory over Nazi invaders, while in the Ukrainian-speaking west, where most of the anti-Soviet insurgents fought, monuments have been erected and streets have been named in their honor. Veterans receive government benefits, no matter which side they fought on during the war.

 

An Orthodox priest prays as Ukrainians dressed in the SS Galician Division uniform carry a coffin.
 

Politicians are also deeply divided on the subject. Former President Viktor Yushchenko, who steered Ukraine toward the West after leading the 2004 Orange Revolution, campaigned to have the nationalist insurgents honored as heroes, even though leading Western historians say many of their units had a hand in massacring civilians, including Jews and Poles. And the radical nationalist party Svoboda — a vocal force in parliament whose leaders have been accused of anti-Semitic and racist remarks — extolls those fighters.

 

The Party of Regions led by President Viktor Yanukovych, who is seen as more Russia-friendly, has campaigned against treating the men as heroes. But the party has exploited the anti-fascist cause to its advantage. In May, it organized a large rally in Kiev to protest fascism and call for tolerance — but after the event ended, pro-government activists clashed with opposition protesters and beat up two journalists trying to film the brawl.

 

Post-Soviet Ukraine has failed to investigate, prosecute or bring to trial a single Nazi war criminal, according to Efraim Zuroff, the top Nazi hunter with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. The same is true of other post-Communist countries with a record of Nazi collaboration such as Latvia, Estonia and Belarus. Pressed by the West, Lithuania put three Nazi criminals on trial, but waited until they were too old or unfit to be punished. In all of these countries, experts say, suspected Nazi collaborators were protected because of their role fighting the Soviets, considered by much of the population as the greater enemy.

 

"Ukraine's efforts or lack of efforts to investigate and prosecute Nazi war criminals is assessed as a total failure; they haven't done a damn thing," Zuroff said. "To bring such people to justice would be very politically unpopular in Eastern Europe."

Ukrainians sought independence during centuries of rule by the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires as well as Poland, and seven decades as part of the Soviet Union. Subjugation under Poland lies at the heart of Ukraine's historic resentment against Poles. When Soviet Ukraine was overrun by the Nazis during World War II, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists initially cooperated with Hitler's forces, hoping to shake off the Soviet regime — which had collectivized farms, engineered a devastating famine that killed millions and imprisoned or executed regime opponents in droves. When leaders of the group realized the Nazis had no plans for an independent Ukraine, the group and its military wing switched to fighting both Stalin's and Hitler's forces. Other Ukrainian military units, such as the SS Galician Division or the Ukrainian Self Defense Legion, remained loyal to the Nazis.

 

Veterans of the Galician see themselves as freedom fighters. Yevhen Kutsik, 86, was a 16-year-old boy when he took up arms and joined the SS Galician division after seeing "mountains of corpses of innocent tortured men, women and even children" left by the Soviets. "I fought for my motherland, for my people, for my country," Kutsik, clad in the division veterans' dark blue uniform and forage cap, told The Associated Press during the commemorations outside the western city of Lviv in late July. After the war, Kutsik served 12 years in a Soviet labor camp.

 

In April, a larger rally commemorating the SS Galician Division was held in Lviv. Men and women clad in traditional Ukrainian embroidered shirts marched peacefully in the center of the city waving the SS unit's blue and yellow banners — but there was also a clear neo-Nazi contingent in the mix. Some marchers wore Nazi SS caps or uniforms that appeared inspired by the Nazi Wehrmacht armed forces, while others gave Nazi salutes. A band of neo-Nazi skinheads from Russia marched alongside the Ukrainian nationalists, wearing T-shirts emblazoned with "SS Totenkopf" — in apparent reference to the SS unit that supplied death camp guards.

 

At another recent commemoration in the village of Yaseniv outside Lviv, a young man with the SS Galician division's lion symbol tattooed on his leg wore a T-shirt emblazoned with the neo-Nazi slogan: "White pride worldwide."

 

In much of the post-Soviet Union, people generally do not receive strong education regarding Holocaust horrors. Such ignorance plays a strong role in events such as the ones in Yaseniv and Chervone that glorify Nazi imagery — and most participants do not belong to the hard right. The tendency to overlook Nazi crimes, however, does breed tolerance of the few neo-Nazi elements among them, and can also lead to vulnerability to the xenophobic rhetoric of parties such as Svoboda.

 

A boy with a toy gun stands near the graves in the SS Galician Division cemetery
 

Rallies in honor of soldiers who fought in Nazi units during WWII have been held in Latvia and Estonia over the past years, also sparking controversy.

 

Many Ukrainian historians see the insurgents, including those who collaborated with the Nazis, as resistance fighters and victims of unjust and brutal circumstances. Many Western historians say some of them were also involved in massacring civilians, such as Jews, Poles and Soviet sympathizers. The killings of Jews represent "a large and inexpugnable stain on the records of the Ukrainian national insurgency," writes John-Paul Himka, a historian at Canada's University of Alberta who studies the Holocaust in Ukraine. Historians are still weighing evidence on whether the SS Galician had a role in Nazi war crimes, Himka said.

 

An open discussion of the legacy of the Ukrainian insurgents was taboo during the Soviet era, with school children taught that they were enemies of the people. With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, secret archives opened up and witness accounts and documents became accessible, some portraying the nationalist fighters in a heroic light, others pointing to the atrocities they had committed.

 

"Now it has become open and with it a lot of pain has emerged," said Anatoly Podolsky, head of the Ukrainian Center for Holocaust Studies. "What cannot be done is to label them all as (Nazi) collaborators. Or as heroes. They are not all collaborators and they are not all heroes."

Podolsky and others say that a thorough investigation and condemnation of Nazi war crimes in Ukraine should be conducted alongside a similar review of the crimes committed by Soviet authorities, which also hasn't taken place.

 

Ukrainians dressed in the SS Galician Division uniform stand in the guard of honor during re-burial
 

Born in the Lutsk region, which is now part of western Ukraine, Karkoc emigrated to the United States shortly after the war by lying to American authorities about his role in the Ukrainian Self Defense Legion, which is accused of torching villages filled with women and children. The AP investigation found evidence indicating that Karkoc was at the scene of the massacres, although no records implicate him directly in them. When reached for comment at his home in Minnesota, Karkoc refused to discuss his past.

 

The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry declined to talk about the Karkoc case. The Prosecutor's Office said Karkoc's case would be reviewed by Ukraine's security agency.

 

But Vadim Kolesnichenko, a lawmaker with the president's party, asked the prosecutors to seek Karkoc's extradition from the United States and to put him on trial in Ukraine. "Nazi crimes against humanity have no expiration date," Kolesnichenko wrote in a blog posting.

 

Activists on the other side of the debate flocked to Karkoc's defense.

 

Rostislav Novozhenets, head of Ukraine-Rus, a group which studies Soviet repression against Ukrainians, said fighters like Karkoc cooperated with the Nazis for the sake of freeing their homeland from the totalitarian Soviet regime.

 

"Was it better to join the Soviet army, the army of a country infamous for repressions and the Holodmor (Stalin-era famine), which killed millions of its own citizens? The USSR was enemy No. 1," Novozhenets said. "That is why these boys, these Ukrainians, the representatives of an oppressed nation, cannot be condemned: They fought for an independent Ukraine and that is why they should be honored as fighters for independence."

___

 

Svetlana Fedas contributed to this report from Lviv, Ukraine.



#95 Mark K

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:07 PM


The western part of Ukrainia was the Galicia province of the Hapsburg Empire, and therefore Catholic, in case anybody was wondering.  



#96 Saorsa

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:09 PM


The western part of Ukrainia was the Galicia province of the Hapsburg Empire, and therefore Catholic, in case anybody was wondering.  

 

We just need to send 600 or so into the valley of death.



#97 Clove Hitch

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:20 PM

  I feel bad for them but the protesters are simply going to get rolled eventually.  They have two options - Fight the civil war or capitulate.

 

I wouldn't be too sure about that.  They seem pretty good at taking out APCs.  Prolly see the govt. overthrown within the next couple of days. 

 

http://www.liveleak.com/c/must_see

 

Did I call it or what?



#98 Point Break

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:43 PM

The labels "nazi" and "fascist" are favorite pejorative terms used mostly by Russian media outlets and ethnic Russians to dismiss any groups who favor pulling away from the Russian sphere as evil and without merit. While there are indeed a relatively small number of Ukrainian neo-nazis (as there are similar groups in the US and a number of other countries), and in fact there were nazi collaborators in Ukraine during WW2 (as there were in occupied Poland, France, and much of Europe) to characterize the entire event as a fascist effort is to 1) be uninformed on the reality of the situation or 2) a biased purveyor of the propaganda.

A far more balanced and IMO accurate assessment can be found in the National Interest by Nikolas Gvosdev. He correctly assesses the issues as an ethically divided country along regional lines and an economy in trouble in a struggling emerging democracy.

Op Ed in National Interest:

http://nationalinter...ia-missing-9913

Bio Nikolas Gvosdev

http://en.wikipedia....Nikolas_Gvosdev

"Nikolas N. Gvosdev is a Russian-American international relations scholar. He is the former Editor of the bi-monthly foreign policy journal, The National Interest. He was appointed to the post in 2005, after having been the journal's Executive Editor and the founding Editor of the journal's now-defunct separate web edition, In The National Interest [1]. Upon leaving the editorship in 2008, he was succeeded by Justine Rosenthal;[1] he remains associated with the journal as a contributing editor.[2]
Gvosdev received his D.Phil. as a Rhodes Scholar at St Antony's College, Oxford. He writes widely as a specialist on US foreign policy as well as international politics as they affect Russia and its neighbors. He also edits the weblog, The Washington Realist [2]. Gvosdev lived in Washington DC and served as Senior Fellow for strategic studies at the Nixon Center, and as an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and George Washington University until 2007. In 2008 he moved to Newport, RI and started teaching at the Naval War College. He is married with one son.
Along with Dimitri K. Simes, Anatol Lieven, and John Hulsman, Gvosdev is seen as one of the proponents of the "new realism" in foreign policy—one that acknowledges a greater role for values than traditional realpolitik as espoused by Henry Kissinger but nonetheless puts a stress on setting priorities. He has also been one of the strongest proponents for engagement with Russia and has tended to view Vladimir Putin's government in a more positive light than most American commentators, characterizing his regime as "managed pluralism" rather than as an outright authoritarian state. Along with Ray Takeyh, he was an early skeptic of the proposition that the spread of democracy in the Middle East would bring pro-American governments to power."

#99 Olsonist

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:46 PM

http://www.washingto...aines-protests/

 

Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png

 

ukraine-2004.jpg



#100 Point Break

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:44 PM

http://www.washingto...aines-protests/

 

Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png

 

ukraine-2004.jpg

Precisely my experience. Our first mission was in and around Kharkiv. VERY Russian. That's where the Russian officers in their uniforms with their entourage suddenly showed up unannounced at one of the exercises very close to the Russian border. The people were friendly but clearly wrong footed by a large group of Americans running around with the Ukrainian military and civil and medical services. Old guys walked around town and in the stores and bars with their well worn civilian suit coats with their soviet army medals and ribbons pinned to the pocket. On my next trip we were in Slavutych, Chernobyl (which was fascinating by the way) and Kiev. Very western in dress and attitude. Outgoing, open and friendly in manner and attitude. Like two different countries.....but that's the point isn't it.






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