Jump to content


Ukraine


  • Please log in to reply
1350 replies to this topic

#1301 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 49,833 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:03 AM

Obummer needs to act and act now.  Deploy the La-z-boy Warrior Division.

 

demotivator-013.jpg



#1302 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 29,114 posts
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:23 AM

The Russians probably have boots on the ground inside eastern Ukraine but i cannot overstate the amount of ethic pro-Russian people I met when I was in Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine. Do not underestimate the very strong desires of those people to rejoin Russia.

 

I don't doubt that in the slightest.  But what I'm seeing in the news doesn't look to be a groundswell of local ethnic Russians rising up to join the motherland.  But rather Russian forces themselves coming in and stirring up trouble and agitating to make it "look like" it is the locals.  There are credible reports of them busing in demonstrators into towns who were obviously NOT locals but pretending to be locals. 

 

PBS segment from Monday - sorry about the 30 sec ad at the beginning

 

Full transcript here

 

Judy Woodruff:  Adrian Karatnycky, who are these people? They appear to be in camouflage uniforms, very well-armed. They seemed — it seems orchestrated. What is known?

 

ADRIAN KARATNYCKY, Atlantic Council: It is already known because of telephone intercepts and conversations on their internal communications that have been revealed by the Ukrainian security forces that these people are acting under the direction of Russian minders.

 

In fact, the person who orchestrated — the political technologist who orchestrated the takeover of Crimea is now their point of contact. These people are perhaps, some of them, redeployed forces from Crimea. There are not very many of them as yet, probably less than a couple hundred. There are not — they are not deployed in all the cities where there have been these kinds of takeovers.

 

But, generally, the typical pattern is 20 or so of these soldiers heavily armed, semiautomatic, automatic weapons, grenade launchers, move quickly, lightning bolt speed. They overwhelm local police, who basically are carrying pistols and light firearms. They immediately are followed by a group of 50 to 100 black-masked thugs who are also — who probably are people who were used in the violence against the protest movement that brought down Mr. Yanukovych, when thousands of these thugs and strongmen and groups from criminal gangs were used to suppress and actually to abduct and to kill protesters.

 

And then the third layer is a combination of, I would say, fringe pro-Russian groups and fairly poor people, who apparently are being paid about $50 a day, which is a lot of money in Ukraine, to come out and protest. And there are phone numbers that have been revealed, and people have made phone calls, journalists, to a number of people who are organizing these groups.

 

They are offering money for participation. Some people are participating legitimately, but, in most cases, if you look at the crowds, you’re talking about 500 people, 1,000 people. You don’t have kind of the groundswell of the masses of the population in any of these city centers.

 

And, as importantly, in the main center in Donetsk, you don’t seem to have clearly the support of the political elites. The political elites are biding their time. I think they’re using these protests to negotiate a stronger bargain with Kiev. But I think they are playing with fire.

 

But, basically, I would say there is a substantial Russian-coordinated military and paramilitary engagement. And I would believe that there may be a hand of Mr. Yanukovych and his former interior minister, who built these networks of thugs to suppress protests and now are across the border 100 miles or so from the Ukrainian border in Rostov.

 

And they, I believe, are helping to coordinate or are in cooperation with Russian security services and the Russian military intelligence, helping to coordinate and to bring to bear all those assets in the service of this theater and of this what I would call in some cases acts of terrorism

 

This seems clearly to be orchestrated by Putin to stir up unrest in the Ukraine to either keep the gov't in Kiev weak or to create a pretext to invade and take more land.  I'm sure ethnic Russians would like to join mother Russia.  But I'm not sure they want it enough to go to war and die over it.



#1303 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 49,833 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:28 AM

 There are credible reports of them busing in demonstrators into towns who were obviously NOT locals but pretending to be locals. 

Reminds me of the Brooks Brothers Riot in Miami in late 2000.  



#1304 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:27 PM

The Russians probably have boots on the ground inside eastern Ukraine but i cannot overstate the amount of ethic pro-Russian people I met when I was in Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine. Do not underestimate the very strong desires of those people to rejoin Russia.

 

I don't doubt that in the slightest.  But what I'm seeing in the news doesn't look to be a groundswell of local ethnic Russians rising up to join the motherland.  But rather Russian forces themselves coming in and stirring up trouble and agitating to make it "look like" it is the locals.  There are credible reports of them busing in demonstrators into towns who were obviously NOT locals but pretending to be locals. 

 

PBS segment from Monday - sorry about the 30 sec ad at the beginning

 

Full transcript here

 

>Judy Woodruff:  Adrian Karatnycky, who are these people? They appear to be in camouflage uniforms, very well-armed. They seemed — it seems orchestrated. What is known?

 

ADRIAN KARATNYCKY, Atlantic Council: It is already known because of telephone intercepts and conversations on their internal communications that have been revealed by the Ukrainian security forces that these people are acting under the direction of Russian minders.

 

In fact, the person who orchestrated — the political technologist who orchestrated the takeover of Crimea is now their point of contact. These people are perhaps, some of them, redeployed forces from Crimea. There are not very many of them as yet, probably less than a couple hundred. There are not — they are not deployed in all the cities where there have been these kinds of takeovers.

 

But, generally, the typical pattern is 20 or so of these soldiers heavily armed, semiautomatic, automatic weapons, grenade launchers, move quickly, lightning bolt speed. They overwhelm local police, who basically are carrying pistols and light firearms. They immediately are followed by a group of 50 to 100 black-masked thugs who are also — who probably are people who were used in the violence against the protest movement that brought down Mr. Yanukovych, when thousands of these thugs and strongmen and groups from criminal gangs were used to suppress and actually to abduct and to kill protesters.

 

And then the third layer is a combination of, I would say, fringe pro-Russian groups and fairly poor people, who apparently are being paid about $50 a day, which is a lot of money in Ukraine, to come out and protest. And there are phone numbers that have been revealed, and people have made phone calls, journalists, to a number of people who are organizing these groups.

 

They are offering money for participation. Some people are participating legitimately, but, in most cases, if you look at the crowds, you’re talking about 500 people, 1,000 people. You don’t have kind of the groundswell of the masses of the population in any of these city centers.

 

And, as importantly, in the main center in Donetsk, you don’t seem to have clearly the support of the political elites. The political elites are biding their time. I think they’re using these protests to negotiate a stronger bargain with Kiev. But I think they are playing with fire.

 

But, basically, I would say there is a substantial Russian-coordinated military and paramilitary engagement. And I would believe that there may be a hand of Mr. Yanukovych and his former interior minister, who built these networks of thugs to suppress protests and now are across the border 100 miles or so from the Ukrainian border in Rostov.

 

And they, I believe, are helping to coordinate or are in cooperation with Russian security services and the Russian military intelligence, helping to coordinate and to bring to bear all those assets in the service of this theater and of this what I would call in some cases acts of terrorism

 

This seems clearly to be orchestrated by Putin to stir up unrest in the Ukraine to either keep the gov't in Kiev weak or to create a pretext to invade and take more land.  I'm sure ethnic Russians would like to join mother Russia.  But I'm not sure they want it enough to go to war and die over it.

 

 

Yep, clear as the shit on your face...hit-the-fan.gif

 



#1305 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 29,114 posts
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:58 PM

RT as your source?  Well, hell - why didn't you say so in the first place.  I'm sure they aren't biased AT ALL. 

 

 

Jackass.....



#1306 Battlecheese

Battlecheese

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,606 posts
  • Interests:Sailing, music, physics.

Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:28 PM

I don't doubt that in the slightest.  But what I'm seeing in the news doesn't look to be a groundswell of local ethnic Russians rising up to join the motherland.  But rather Russian forces themselves coming in and stirring up trouble and agitating to make it "look like" it is the locals.  There are credible reports of them busing in demonstrators into towns who were obviously NOT locals but pretending to be locals. 
.
.
.
This seems clearly to be orchestrated by Putin to stir up unrest in the Ukraine to either keep the gov't in Kiev weak or to create a pretext to invade and take more land.  I'm sure ethnic Russians would like to join mother Russia.  But I'm not sure they want it enough to go to war and die over it.

Seriously dude - go read a few pages of your postings in the Libya or Syria threads.

How do you reverse your position on this sort of thing so quickly without spraining something?

#1307 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 29,114 posts
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:40 PM

I don't doubt that in the slightest.  But what I'm seeing in the news doesn't look to be a groundswell of local ethnic Russians rising up to join the motherland.  But rather Russian forces themselves coming in and stirring up trouble and agitating to make it "look like" it is the locals.  There are credible reports of them busing in demonstrators into towns who were obviously NOT locals but pretending to be locals. 
.
.
.
This seems clearly to be orchestrated by Putin to stir up unrest in the Ukraine to either keep the gov't in Kiev weak or to create a pretext to invade and take more land.  I'm sure ethnic Russians would like to join mother Russia.  But I'm not sure they want it enough to go to war and die over it.

Seriously dude - go read a few pages of your postings in the Libya or Syria threads.

How do you reverse your position on this sort of thing so quickly without spraining something?

 

Seriously dude, feel free to post something of mine if you have a problem with it.



#1308 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

RT as your source?  Well, hell - why didn't you say so in the first place.  I'm sure they aren't biased AT ALL. 

 

 

Jackass.....

 

Yeah, obviously fake protestors.

 

Asswipe....passifier.gif



#1309 kmccabe

kmccabe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,515 posts
  • Location:Belly of the Beast.

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:57 PM

How'z our Neville Chamberlain (Obama) doing today? 

 

Neville-Chamberlain-courtesy-bbc.co_.uk_



#1310 Olsonist

Olsonist

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,082 posts
  • Location:Oakland, CA

Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:17 PM

Just so that you know, Neville Chamberlain was a Conservative.

His government fell because Labour refused to join his coalition.

 

With the full backing of Congress, the EU and the vast majority of the United Nations, the Kenyan is no Chamberlain.

With the current level of sanctions, Russia is on track for 0% economic growth for 2014.

And it can still get worse for the Russkis.



#1311 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:53 PM

Obummer needs to act and act now.  Deploy the La-z-boy Warrior Division.
 
demotivator-013.jpg


Yep, they have arrived, full force...

#1312 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:14 PM

Kmccade alludes to similarities to the attempts to appease Hitler. This is not far afield. I am increasingly concerned by the similarities.

Excerpted below is the last of a speech by Winston Churchill in the House of Commons in response to the Munich Agreement. If you are interested you should read the entire speech, as I fear it portends our near future. I have linked the entire speech below the quote.

"I do not grudge our loyal, brave people, who were ready to do their duty no matter what the cost, who never flinched under the strain of last week - I do not grudge them the natural, spontaneous outburst of joy and relief when they learned that the hard ordeal would no longer be required of them at the moment; but they should know the truth. They should know that there has been gross neglect and deficiency in our defences; they should know that we have sustained a defeat without a war, the consequences of which will travel far with us along our road; they should know that we have passed an awful milestone in our history, when the whole equilibrium of Europe has been deranged, and that the terrible words have for the time being been pronounced against the Western democracies:

"Thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting."

And do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time."

Thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting........indeed.

https://www.winstonc...unich-agreement

#1313 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:19 PM

By the way.......google "Western Betrayal".

#1314 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 35,078 posts

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:42 PM

 Here's how the Munich Agreement went down: 

 

 aabssk.png

 Sequence of events following the Munich Agreement:

1. Germany occupies the Sudetenland (October 1938).
2. Poland annexes Zaolzie, an area with a Polish plurality, over which the two countries had fought a war in 1919(October 1938).
3. Hungary occupies border areas (southern third ofSlovakia and southern Carpathian Ruthenia) with Hungarian minorities in accordance with the First Vienna Award (November 1938).
4. On March 15, 1939, during the German invasion of the remaining Czech territories, Hungary annexesCarpathian Ruthenia (which had been autonomous since October 1938).
5. Germany establishing the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia with a puppet government, on March 16, 1939.
6. Meanwhile during the German invasion of Czech territories, a pro-Hitler Catholic-fascist government splits off the remaining territories of Czechoslovakia and declares the Slovak Republic, an Axis client state.

 

 

Someone once asked a snarky question of Dean Acheson about how he would explain the US stances and outrage about democracy in Greece and silence about China. He said something like "I would as patiently and as politely as possible explain that Greece is not China." 

 

 So many have implied that had Chamberlain declared war on Germany right there, why, Hitler would have been crushed! Hitler still had a quiet alliance with Stalin as a result of British rabid fear of communism scotching Litvanov's attempts to make a Soviet/British contain-Germany alliance. The very first and only Spitfire squadron had been assembled just three months previous, they had about 25 of them total. The Hurricane? Eight months previous, they had about 50. British armor? A sad joke. 



#1315 Battlecheese

Battlecheese

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,606 posts
  • Interests:Sailing, music, physics.

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:43 PM

Kmccade alludes to similarities to the attempts to appease Hitler. This is not far afield. I am increasingly concerned by the similarities.

Fuck you clowns are all lazy.
Go study some fucking history.
Why is WW2 the only example of repressed countries resulting in a surge of nationalism and then war that people ever seem to be able to think of?

Never mind all the threads agonising about shools these days. Seems to me that the education system has been fucked for decades and decades.

#1316 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:46 PM

Kmccade alludes to similarities to the attempts to appease Hitler. This is not far afield. I am increasingly concerned by the similarities.

Fuck you clowns are all lazy.Go study some fucking history.Why is WW2 the only example of repressed countries resulting in a surge of nationalism and then war that people ever seem to be able to think of?Never mind all the threads agonising about shools these days. Seems to me that the education system has been fucked for decades and decades.
Now that's funny. Shools..............thanks for shooling me cuz I don't know nuttin about no hiztory.

Bah ha ha ha ha.

Are you a Berkely grad?

#1317 Olsonist

Olsonist

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,082 posts
  • Location:Oakland, CA

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:50 PM

I'm the local Berkeley grad.
I don't think Battlecheese is American.

#1318 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:54 PM

I'm the local Berkeley grad.
I don't think Battlecheese is American.

One of my sons is a Berkeley grad........Poly Sci a few years ago. I used the reference unfairly in an attempt at sarcastic humor. Of course, I tease my son similarly............

#1319 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:55 PM

 

Kmccade alludes to similarities to the attempts to appease Hitler. This is not far afield. I am increasingly concerned by the similarities.

Fuck you clowns are all lazy.Go study some fucking history.Why is WW2 the only example of repressed countries resulting in a surge of nationalism and then war that people ever seem to be able to think of?Never mind all the threads agonising about shools these days. Seems to me that the education system has been fucked for decades and decades.
Now that's funny. Shools..............thanks for shooling me cuz I don't know nuttin about no hiztory.

Bah ha ha ha ha.

Are you a Berkely grad?

 

Hook, line and sinker! clap2.gif



#1320 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:56 PM

I'm the local Berkeley grad.
 

 

Nuff said…. cheesy.gifcheesy.gifcheesy.gif



#1321 Olsonist

Olsonist

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,082 posts
  • Location:Oakland, CA

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:58 PM

I did EECS. That was one tough school for us geeks. It sent me to the hospital from stress. Awesome profs, especially in EE.

Lowell North went to Cal. So did Arvel Gentry.

#1322 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:02 AM

I did EECS. That was one tough school for us geeks. It sent me to the hospital from stress. Awesome profs, especially in EE.


I audited a couple of his classes.......enjoyed it immensely as I never had the chance. Buncha liberals.......bright liberals.......but liberals nonetheless!

#1323 Olsonist

Olsonist

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,082 posts
  • Location:Oakland, CA

Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:07 AM

I only had one idiot liberal, Cohen, for Rhetoric 103A. He was the only bad prof I ever saw at Cal. In fact, I had one of his colleagues from a different department crewing on my boat. She hated him too.

But I dropped Cohen after two lectures and took yet another brilliant prof instead for Cervantes. Yeah, a lot of bright liberal profs but the students might be slightly more conservative. Slightly. John Yoo teaches there and is well thought of by his students. Fact is Yoo has had a long relationship with Boalt Hall.



#1324 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 35,078 posts

Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:11 AM

 Well...who's going to say anything bad about John "crushing testicles" Yoo? 



#1325 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:15 AM

Yoo isn't exactly "liberal"...........

#1326 Olsonist

Olsonist

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,082 posts
  • Location:Oakland, CA

Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:17 AM

Well, I would but then these law students checked their politics at the classroom door. I couldn't do that. In fact, I saw a debate between Yoo and the Dean of the Goldman School of Public Policy about what amounted to torture. Let's say that either Yoo is a formidable opponent or that the GSPP guy was weak. I was about 5 feet from Yoo. I didn't like him at all.

 

Yoo obviously isn't a liberal, but the fact is he's a well thought of law professor at Berkeley.



#1327 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:23 AM

Most of what I read of his perspectives on torture during the big Bush/Cheney waterboarding debates seemed to focus almost exclusively on the legal questions of defining torture and whether it was an executive privilege to define that and very little of the ethical perspective.

#1328 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 17 April 2014 - 01:12 AM

Most of what I read of his perspectives on torture during the big Bush/Cheney waterboarding debates seemed to focus almost exclusively on the legal questions of defining torture and whether it was an executive privilege to define that and very little of the ethical perspective.

Debate all you want. Fact is. If it’s USG then it’s obviously it’s not, If it’s the “enemy” then it obviosly is.. Ethics and rule of law are irrelevant.



#1329 kmccabe

kmccabe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,515 posts
  • Location:Belly of the Beast.

Posted 17 April 2014 - 01:13 AM

To be clear, my inlaws lived in Occupied Holland during the "war" and have very similar opinions of both Obama and Putin. Both they and I think the next World War is about to happen. Obama is weak. Putin is Hitler. Europe, bribed for 40 years by people who've promised everything socialist and delivered nothing has no capacity to "take care" of their own affairs let alone Putin.

 

People with perspective despise Obama.  

 

 

Kmccade alludes to similarities to the attempts to appease Hitler. This is not far afield. I am increasingly concerned by the similarities



#1330 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted 17 April 2014 - 01:30 AM

Most of what I read of his perspectives on torture during the big Bush/Cheney waterboarding debates seemed to focus almost exclusively on the legal questions of defining torture and whether it was an executive privilege to define that and very little of the ethical perspective.

Debate all you want. Fact is. If it’s USG then it’s obviously it’s not, If it’s the “enemy” then it obviosly is.. Ethics and rule of law are irrelevant.
Debate all I want........

What do you believe my view on the issue is?

#1331 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 49,833 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:46 AM

This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of this one.

 

I agree with this personality.  



#1332 Battlecheese

Battlecheese

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,606 posts
  • Interests:Sailing, music, physics.

Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:59 AM

To be clear, my inlaws lived in Occupied Holland during the "war" and have very similar opinions of both Obama and Putin. Both they and I think the next World War is about to happen. Obama is weak. Putin is Hitler. Europe, bribed for 40 years by people who've promised everything socialist and delivered nothing has no capacity to "take care" of their own affairs let alone Putin.
 
People with perspective despise Obama.

People with perspective can see that strength and intelligence was required decades ago - the only thing a "strong" US president can do with the current mess is make it worse faster.

#1333 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 35,078 posts

Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:30 AM

The Russians probably have boots on the ground inside eastern Ukraine but i cannot overstate the amount of ethic pro-Russian people I met when I was in Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine. Do not underestimate the very strong desires of those people to rejoin Russia.

 

I don't doubt that in the slightest.  But what I'm seeing in the news doesn't look to be a groundswell of local ethnic Russians rising up to join the motherland.  But rather Russian forces themselves coming in and stirring up trouble and agitating to make it "look like" it is the locals.  There are credible reports of them busing in demonstrators into towns who were obviously NOT locals but pretending to be locals. 

 

PBS segment from Monday - sorry about the 30 sec ad at the beginning

 

Full transcript here

 

>>Judy Woodruff:  Adrian Karatnycky, who are these people? They appear to be in camouflage uniforms, very well-armed. They seemed — it seems orchestrated. What is known?

 

ADRIAN KARATNYCKY, Atlantic Council: It is already known because of telephone intercepts and conversations on their internal communications that have been revealed by the Ukrainian security forces that these people are acting under the direction of Russian minders.

 

In fact, the person who orchestrated — the political technologist who orchestrated the takeover of Crimea is now their point of contact. These people are perhaps, some of them, redeployed forces from Crimea. There are not very many of them as yet, probably less than a couple hundred. There are not — they are not deployed in all the cities where there have been these kinds of takeovers.

 

But, generally, the typical pattern is 20 or so of these soldiers heavily armed, semiautomatic, automatic weapons, grenade launchers, move quickly, lightning bolt speed. They overwhelm local police, who basically are carrying pistols and light firearms. They immediately are followed by a group of 50 to 100 black-masked thugs who are also — who probably are people who were used in the violence against the protest movement that brought down Mr. Yanukovych, when thousands of these thugs and strongmen and groups from criminal gangs were used to suppress and actually to abduct and to kill protesters.

 

And then the third layer is a combination of, I would say, fringe pro-Russian groups and fairly poor people, who apparently are being paid about $50 a day, which is a lot of money in Ukraine, to come out and protest. And there are phone numbers that have been revealed, and people have made phone calls, journalists, to a number of people who are organizing these groups.

 

They are offering money for participation. Some people are participating legitimately, but, in most cases, if you look at the crowds, you’re talking about 500 people, 1,000 people. You don’t have kind of the groundswell of the masses of the population in any of these city centers.

 

And, as importantly, in the main center in Donetsk, you don’t seem to have clearly the support of the political elites. The political elites are biding their time. I think they’re using these protests to negotiate a stronger bargain with Kiev. But I think they are playing with fire.

 

But, basically, I would say there is a substantial Russian-coordinated military and paramilitary engagement. And I would believe that there may be a hand of Mr. Yanukovych and his former interior minister, who built these networks of thugs to suppress protests and now are across the border 100 miles or so from the Ukrainian border in Rostov.

 

And they, I believe, are helping to coordinate or are in cooperation with Russian security services and the Russian military intelligence, helping to coordinate and to bring to bear all those assets in the service of this theater and of this what I would call in some cases acts of terrorism

 

This seems clearly to be orchestrated by Putin to stir up unrest in the Ukraine to either keep the gov't in Kiev weak or to create a pretext to invade and take more land.  I'm sure ethnic Russians would like to join mother Russia.  But I'm not sure they want it enough to go to war and die over it.

 

 

 Could be Putin is just running this flag up some poles to see how many salute it. Reaction seems pretty tepid so far, at least from here. 

 

 Here's a cute little story, a detachment of Ukrainian troops put up a Russian flag to be allowed deep in, and the Kiev government is pretending it was a brilliant ploy. 

 

 http://voiceofrussia...ty-leader-0039/

 

 Seems more likely those boys did it to see if the Russian Army would like some more volunteers, like 2/3rds of them did in Crimea.  The 5x pay rates is likely to cause Kiev some problems. Kiev left them an honorable excuse if they get turned down, which was mighty nice of them.  



#1334 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 29,114 posts
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:19 AM

 Here's how the Munich Agreement went down: 

 

 aabssk.png

 Sequence of events following the Munich Agreement:

1. Germany occupies the Sudetenland (October 1938).
2. Poland annexes Zaolzie, an area with a Polish plurality, over which the two countries had fought a war in 1919(October 1938).
3. Hungary occupies border areas (southern third ofSlovakia and southern Carpathian Ruthenia) with Hungarian minorities in accordance with the First Vienna Award (November 1938).
4. On March 15, 1939, during the German invasion of the remaining Czech territories, Hungary annexesCarpathian Ruthenia (which had been autonomous since October 1938).
5. Germany establishing the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia with a puppet government, on March 16, 1939.
6. Meanwhile during the German invasion of Czech territories, a pro-Hitler Catholic-fascist government splits off the remaining territories of Czechoslovakia and declares the Slovak Republic, an Axis client state.

 

 

Someone once asked a snarky question of Dean Acheson about how he would explain the US stances and outrage about democracy in Greece and silence about China. He said something like "I would as patiently and as politely as possible explain that Greece is not China." 

 

 So many have implied that had Chamberlain declared war on Germany right there, why, Hitler would have been crushed! Hitler still had a quiet alliance with Stalin as a result of British rabid fear of communism scotching Litvanov's attempts to make a Soviet/British contain-Germany alliance. The very first and only Spitfire squadron had been assembled just three months previous, they had about 25 of them total. The Hurricane? Eight months previous, they had about 50. British armor? A sad joke. 

 

Interesting, thanks Mark.  Without debating the Munich agreement itself and Chamberlin's decision.... I will say there ARE some similarities between that and the current situation with Russia.  I do agree that Chamberlin and the UK was pretty powerless at the time to really be able to prevent Hitler from invading Poland and the rest.  However, I believe the weakness that chamberlin showed by being so eager to enter into a peace deal in exchange for the ability by Germany and Hungary to annex other people's land pretty much spurred Hilter to go further and do it sooner.  Militarily, England was definitely weak and fairly powerless to oppose Hilter.  But I'm sure the renowned English resolve and tenacity likely gave Hitler pause to want to jump into a war with them right away.  Sometimes strength of will is enough to be a deterrent.  And I think that's what Churchill was trying to say.

 

And I believe that is part of what Putin is testing is how far ours and the rest of europe's strength of will is right now.  Obama is in a tight spot right now.  He certainly isn't as weak as Chamberlin was militarily, quite the opposite in fact.  But he is weak in the sense that there is no national will on the part of the US and even less so from Europe to confront Russia militarily.  I'm not advocating that we start rolling armored brigades into Ukraine right now and taking on Russia.  But the fact that the military is not even an option is further encouraging to Putin. 

 

I don't know what the right answer is...  I think we are playing our hand that we were dealt about as well as we can.  But for those of you who are saying we need to completely stay out of this - I totally disagree.  It IS our business.  A stable Europe without the Russian bear roaming around knocking over picnic tables is definitely in our national interest.  For us to go isolationist on this issue would pretty much guarantee that Putin gets even more bold.  Without the US, the EU and NATO is totally or mostly spineless and Putin knows it. 

 

Having said all that.... I do think russia is not without some justification in all this fuckery they are causing.  I'm sure they are not happy with NATO closing in on them right on their border.  That we seemed to have meddled in Ukraine seems like the last straw, looking at it from the Russian perspective.  I believe that as long as we (the US and Europe) present a united front and tell putin he's going no further - then I think what we see will be the end of it.  I think Putin will be content with a weak gov't in Kiev and he will continue to sow unrest and disarray.  But I think the pretext of him "protecting" Ethnic Russians in E Ukraine is even a little too flimsy for him to sell in order to send his tanks across the border.

 

We shall see..... interesting times indeed.



#1335 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 35,078 posts

Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:23 AM

Just watching some late night RT, shows a bunch, like a dozen APC's worth, of Ukrainians pulling the firing pins from their AK's and handing them to the crowd. The announcer isn't saying that but that's what's happening, bigger than shit. Not sure what that means beyond not being real, real eager for a fight and trusting that crowd, which frankly doesn't seem even a little pissed off at those soldiers.  Reach up, take a firing pin or two, and hand up a pack of ciggy's or something. 

 

 Maybe the politicians are a heck of a lot more worked up about this than the folks on the street are. Good sign, I guess. 



#1336 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 17 April 2014 - 03:08 PM

Just watching some late night RT, shows a bunch, like a dozen APC's worth, of Ukrainians pulling the firing pins from their AK's and handing them to the crowd. The announcer isn't saying that but that's what's happening, bigger than shit. Not sure what that means beyond not being real, real eager for a fight and trusting that crowd, which frankly doesn't seem even a little pissed off at those soldiers.  Reach up, take a firing pin or two, and hand up a pack of ciggy's or something. 

 

 Maybe the politicians are a heck of a lot more worked up about this than the folks on the street are. Good sign, I guess. 

 

USG propagated. You should be proud...clap2.gif 



#1337 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 35,078 posts

Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:42 PM

 Here's how the Munich Agreement went down: 

 

 aabssk.png

 Sequence of events following the Munich Agreement:

1. Germany occupies the Sudetenland (October 1938).
2. Poland annexes Zaolzie, an area with a Polish plurality, over which the two countries had fought a war in 1919(October 1938).
3. Hungary occupies border areas (southern third ofSlovakia and southern Carpathian Ruthenia) with Hungarian minorities in accordance with the First Vienna Award (November 1938).
4. On March 15, 1939, during the German invasion of the remaining Czech territories, Hungary annexesCarpathian Ruthenia (which had been autonomous since October 1938).
5. Germany establishing the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia with a puppet government, on March 16, 1939.
6. Meanwhile during the German invasion of Czech territories, a pro-Hitler Catholic-fascist government splits off the remaining territories of Czechoslovakia and declares the Slovak Republic, an Axis client state.

 

 

Someone once asked a snarky question of Dean Acheson about how he would explain the US stances and outrage about democracy in Greece and silence about China. He said something like "I would as patiently and as politely as possible explain that Greece is not China." 

 

 So many have implied that had Chamberlain declared war on Germany right there, why, Hitler would have been crushed! Hitler still had a quiet alliance with Stalin as a result of British rabid fear of communism scotching Litvanov's attempts to make a Soviet/British contain-Germany alliance. The very first and only Spitfire squadron had been assembled just three months previous, they had about 25 of them total. The Hurricane? Eight months previous, they had about 50. British armor? A sad joke. 

 

Interesting, thanks Mark.  Without debating the Munich agreement itself and Chamberlin's decision.... I will say there ARE some similarities between that and the current situation with Russia.  I do agree that Chamberlin and the UK was pretty powerless at the time to really be able to prevent Hitler from invading Poland and the rest.  However, I believe the weakness that chamberlin showed by being so eager to enter into a peace deal in exchange for the ability by Germany and Hungary to annex other people's land pretty much spurred Hilter to go further and do it sooner.  Militarily, England was definitely weak and fairly powerless to oppose Hilter.  But I'm sure the renowned English resolve and tenacity likely gave Hitler pause to want to jump into a war with them right away.  Sometimes strength of will is enough to be a deterrent.  And I think that's what Churchill was trying to say.

 

And I believe that is part of what Putin is testing is how far ours and the rest of europe's strength of will is right now.  Obama is in a tight spot right now.  He certainly isn't as weak as Chamberlin was militarily, quite the opposite in fact.  But he is weak in the sense that there is no national will on the part of the US and even less so from Europe to confront Russia militarily.  I'm not advocating that we start rolling armored brigades into Ukraine right now and taking on Russia.  But the fact that the military is not even an option is further encouraging to Putin. 

 

I don't know what the right answer is...  I think we are playing our hand that we were dealt about as well as we can.  But for those of you who are saying we need to completely stay out of this - I totally disagree.  It IS our business.  A stable Europe without the Russian bear roaming around knocking over picnic tables is definitely in our national interest.  For us to go isolationist on this issue would pretty much guarantee that Putin gets even more bold.  Without the US, the EU and NATO is totally or mostly spineless and Putin knows it. 

 

Having said all that.... I do think russia is not without some justification in all this fuckery they are causing.  I'm sure they are not happy with NATO closing in on them right on their border.  That we seemed to have meddled in Ukraine seems like the last straw, looking at it from the Russian perspective.  I believe that as long as we (the US and Europe) present a united front and tell putin he's going no further - then I think what we see will be the end of it.  I think Putin will be content with a weak gov't in Kiev and he will continue to sow unrest and disarray.  But I think the pretext of him "protecting" Ethnic Russians in E Ukraine is even a little too flimsy for him to sell in order to send his tanks across the border.

 

We shall see..... interesting times indeed.

 

 I don't see Hitler's and Putin's situations as comparable. There was a pretty broad feeling the terms after WW1 had been excessively cruel to the German people, and in fact the feeding frenzy that took place in other parts of that country by all the others indicates a lack of concern with containing Hitler. The bastards were all greedy fucks and though Hitler was just another like them, most likely, and the icing on that cake is that the British people flat did not want war. Churchill? He couldn't get them in the mood either.   

 

 Putin? We've been working at establishing a military alliance that is specifically anti-Russian around the place for decades. He had evidence our State Dept was striving to extend it into the Ukraine.  Seems like a completely different situation to me.  



#1338 saxdog

saxdog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,566 posts

Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:35 PM

This is an old story in the Ukraine and Russia for that matter. But it's starting again. It's how dictators with corrupt lousy economic systems help themselves with a scapegoat. I'm guessing W missed something when he looked into Putain's eyes and saw his soul. 

 

http://www.thedailyb...erm=Cheat Sheet



#1339 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 18 April 2014 - 03:59 AM

This is an old story in the Ukraine and Russia for that matter. But it's starting again. It's how dictators with corrupt lousy economic systems help themselves with a scapegoat. I'm guessing W missed something when he looked into Putain's eyes and saw his soul. 

 

http://www.thedailyb...erm=Cheat Sheet

 

Or when Putin looked back and saw the lights were on but nobody was home.. 



#1340 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 35,078 posts

Posted 18 April 2014 - 07:12 AM

Just watching some late night RT, shows a bunch, like a dozen APC's worth, of Ukrainians pulling the firing pins from their AK's and handing them to the crowd. The announcer isn't saying that but that's what's happening, bigger than shit. Not sure what that means beyond not being real, real eager for a fight and trusting that crowd, which frankly doesn't seem even a little pissed off at those soldiers.  Reach up, take a firing pin or two, and hand up a pack of ciggy's or something. 

 

 Maybe the politicians are a heck of a lot more worked up about this than the folks on the street are. Good sign, I guess. 

 

 Looks like they were showing Ukraine's 25th Airborne Brigade. They sent the brigade to get the Russians but they raised Russian colors when they got there. Which totally takes the biscuit. 

 

 http://un.ua/eng/article/504866.html

 

 It appears the only thing that Putin needs to take over the eastern Ukraine is more Ukrainian Airborne Brigades.

 

 Well, that and the people there deciding what they want. Seems like the base-line for most of them is barely a shit to give on which ridiculous government they must endure.  The first one to piss them off big time loses. 



#1341 billy backstay

billy backstay

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,261 posts
  • Location:Etchells fleet 24..Long River meets the Sound....
  • Interests:boats, cars, girls....

Posted 18 April 2014 - 10:50 AM

This is an old story in the Ukraine and Russia for that matter. But it's starting again. It's how dictators with corrupt lousy economic systems help themselves with a scapegoat. I'm guessing W missed something when he looked into Putain's eyes and saw his soul. 

 

http://www.thedailyb...erm=Cheat Sheet

 

Or when Putin looked back and saw the lights were on but nobody was home.. 

 

Truer words are rarely spoken here......



#1342 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted 18 April 2014 - 11:11 AM

Just watching some late night RT, shows a bunch, like a dozen APC's worth, of Ukrainians pulling the firing pins from their AK's and handing them to the crowd. The announcer isn't saying that but that's what's happening, bigger than shit. Not sure what that means beyond not being real, real eager for a fight and trusting that crowd, which frankly doesn't seem even a little pissed off at those soldiers.  Reach up, take a firing pin or two, and hand up a pack of ciggy's or something. 

 

 Maybe the politicians are a heck of a lot more worked up about this than the folks on the street are. Good sign, I guess. 

 

 Looks like they were showing Ukraine's 25th Airborne Brigade. They sent the brigade to get the Russians but they raised Russian colors when they got there. Which totally takes the biscuit. 

 

 http://un.ua/eng/article/504866.html

 

 It appears the only thing that Putin needs to take over the eastern Ukraine is more Ukrainian Airborne Brigades.

 

 Well, that and the people there deciding what they want. Seems like the base-line for most of them is barely a shit to give on which ridiculous government they must endure.  The first one to piss them off big time loses. 

 



#1343 bgytr

bgytr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 688 posts

Posted 18 April 2014 - 03:26 PM


This is an old story in the Ukraine and Russia for that matter. But it's starting again. It's how dictators with corrupt lousy economic systems help themselves with a scapegoat. I'm guessing W missed something when he looked into Putain's eyes and saw his soul. 
 
http://www.thedailyb...erm=Cheat Sheet

 
Or when Putin looked back and saw the lights were on but nobody was home.. 

Ha!
Gotta good chuckle from that one!

#1344 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 35,078 posts

Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:48 PM

Obummer needs to act and act now.  Deploy the La-z-boy Warrior Division.

 

demotivator-013.jpg

 

 They are entertaining. 

 

 2nvza5g.jpg

 

 1fa3gn.jpg



#1345 Olsonist

Olsonist

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,082 posts
  • Location:Oakland, CA

Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:54 PM

I serve in the Lay-Z-Boy Financial Services Division and I can't imagine wasting a drop of blood or worse, any of our precious Raytheon stock on these spineless Ukrainians. However, I believe if we continue deploying our crack team of economic sanctions specialists, Putin will continue to become still more popular in Russia even as Russians themselves become still poorer.



#1346 tuk tuk joe

tuk tuk joe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,225 posts

Posted Yesterday, 09:29 AM

"How do you know Kerry is lying? - His lips are moving." 

 

A letter urging the Jews of Donetsk to get registered, which the US Secretary of State cited in Geneva, is a fake says a man whose signature appears on the communication. 

 



#1347 Point Break

Point Break

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,285 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, California

Posted Yesterday, 02:11 PM

Pretty good article on the deterioration of US/Russian relations over the last 15 years or so.

http://uk.reuters.co...EA3H0OS20140419

#1348 Mark K

Mark K

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 35,078 posts

Posted Yesterday, 06:30 PM

Pretty good article on the deterioration of US/Russian relations over the last 15 years or so.

http://uk.reuters.co...EA3H0OS20140419

 McFaul to guide the "reset" relations with Russia? Like assigning a German Shepard to  "reset" relations with cats. 

 

  It's now more than apparent Hillary is as close to neocon way of viewing the world as anyone. Obama came to office with zero FP experience and called on the Clintons to take that on.  Who knew that the Hillary who button-holed the great General Dave with "suspension of disbelief" was actually John McCain in drag?

 

  Who knew? 



#1349 Sol Rosenberg

Sol Rosenberg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 49,833 posts
  • Location:Earth

Posted Yesterday, 07:35 PM

Pretty good article on the deterioration of US/Russian relations over the last 15 years or so.

http://uk.reuters.co...EA3H0OS20140419

 McFaul to guide the "reset" relations with Russia? Like assigning a German Shepard to  "reset" relations with cats. 

 

  It's now more than apparent Hillary is as close to neocon way of viewing the world as anyone. Obama came to office with zero FP experience and called on the Clintons to take that on.  Who knew that the Hillary who button-holed the great General Dave with "suspension of disbelief" was actually John McCain in drag?

 

  Who knew? 

I've been calling her a neocon for some time.  That's what she is.  



#1350 Saorsa

Saorsa

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,713 posts

Posted Yesterday, 08:08 PM

NATO has served it's post-war purpose.  Time to let the kiddies out on their own.



#1351 kmccabe

kmccabe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,515 posts
  • Location:Belly of the Beast.

Posted Yesterday, 10:54 PM

Major League.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users