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#1501 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:57 AM

McCabe - if most of the participants here believe you're a flip flopper on advocating staying out, then advocating getting in (cause the Kenyan stayed out) - yet you believe you've advocated differently

 

The problem is either all the readers, or

 

your writing style or

 

you're a flip flopper

 

I read it.  I didn't think he was flop flipping.



#1502 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:28 PM

McCabe - if most of the participants here believe you're a flip flopper on advocating staying out, then advocating getting in (cause the Kenyan stayed out) - yet you believe you've advocated differently

 

The problem is either all the readers, or

 

your writing style or

 

you're a flip flopper

 

I read it.  I didn't think he was flop flipping.

Calling for us to take no action, and comparing our lack of action to Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler is not flip flopping?  Interesting.  



#1503 saxdog

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:04 PM

Thomas Friedman's take on this from today's NYT:

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ef=opinion&_r=0



#1504 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:33 PM

Thomas Friedman's take on this from today's NYT:

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ef=opinion&_r=0

I like that.  The one thing we should be doing is offering a competing product.  Keystone is going to pass eventually, it's just a matter of when Congress decides that API has spent enough money to buy it.  I don't think it should be allowed, without a guarantee that it is only for domestic use, to put some actual meaning in the rhetorical "reduce our dependence on foreign oil" catch phrase.  But that is not what the API is paying for, so it will not happen.  Might as well tie it to something that benefits the country.  



#1505 Battlecheese

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:33 PM

Thomas Friedman's take on this from today's NYT:
 
http://www.nytimes.c...ef=opinion&_r=0

What a cretin.

The last thing Putin wants is a fairly elected reformist government in Kiev that would have the legitimacy to associate Ukraine with the European Union. Therefore, it’s the first thing Ukrainians must do.

I don't think that Putin is nearly as scared of a competent government in Kiev as some people might like us to think.

#1506 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 04:03 PM

Near the end, Friedman identifies the problem with his proposal, which is why it will never come to fruition.  It will "entail serious choices."  Our leaders are incapable of making serious choices.  They must pander to the soundbite-addicted, lowest common denominator of our society.  



#1507 JBSF

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 04:09 PM

 

McCabe - if most of the participants here believe you're a flip flopper on advocating staying out, then advocating getting in (cause the Kenyan stayed out) - yet you believe you've advocated differently

 

The problem is either all the readers, or

 

your writing style or

 

you're a flip flopper

 

I read it.  I didn't think he was flop flipping.

Calling for us to take no action, and comparing our lack of action to Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler is not flip flopping?  Interesting.  

 

Maybe I misunderstood him.  My impression was that KM wanted to stay out altogether.  But once Obama committed to take action..... it was tepid and weak.  Either be effective or stay home.



#1508 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 04:39 PM

Sorry that you can't see the idiocy of giving away Eastern Europe. Subtle things like this sink us.

 

Sorry for you and other "independents" on this forum. 

Yoo hoo:

 

 

>This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of this one.

 

 

 

Here you go, Jeff.  



#1509 Mark K

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 04:55 PM




I agree that Russia isn't driving this as much as we are led to believe.  The issues are much deeper that a surficial Russia/NATO process.  We will sniff and snuff.  I hope mutually assured destruction stops anything but sniping, but one must remember that the conflicts in the Donetz region were brought to a head when, in 1952, it was given to the Ukraine by Kruschev thinking that the Russian influence would last forever and it didn't really matter.  The question of Quebec and the rest of Canada will be settled by changing demographics.  The same cannot be said concerning the Donetz within the Ukraine.

 
   When the USSR dissolved millions of "Russians" suddenly became something else. Tinder looking for a spark. Our media keeps making a bid deal about Russian troops in the Ukraine, but they never mention the status of forces agreement that allowed 25,000 Russian military personnel in Crimea or the detachment of hundreds of Russian infantry peace keepers in Moldova.  
 
 I got a feeling the Russians will give the rebs whatever they need to succeed, and that may be something well short of independence, but really, really don't want to march in themselves.  A lot depends on how rough the Kiev government is willing to get. They had best think hard about that.


 
 Adding an interesting report on how those people in Odessa "burned". 
 
 


 
Psychopaths....bah.gif


 
 They want to insure they have access to the Black Sea too. Their other first, big effort was in the port city on the other side of Crimea. This apparent plot to fluff up the numbers of the rebels to justify whatever happens is Sovietski, though. They may still have the habit of believing the truth never need come out and/or nobody can do anything about it if it does.

#1510 TheFlash

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 05:18 PM

Now McCabe wants Obama to abandon NATO signatories.  


I didn't think McCabe could dance that jig that fast.



#1511 billy backstay

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 05:42 PM

 

 

McCabe - if most of the participants here believe you're a flip flopper on advocating staying out, then advocating getting in (cause the Kenyan stayed out) - yet you believe you've advocated differently

 

The problem is either all the readers, or

 

your writing style or

 

you're a flip flopper

 

I read it.  I didn't think he was flop flipping.

Calling for us to take no action, and comparing our lack of action to Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler is not flip flopping?  Interesting.  

 

Maybe I misunderstood him.  My impression was that KM wanted to stay out altogether.  But once Obama committed to take action..... it was tepid and weak.  Either be effective or stay home.

 

The masthead windex last Sunday was doing 180's faster than McCabe! LOL



#1512 JMD

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 06:10 PM

We should do nothing strongly, as opposed to doing something weakly, which is, of course, the logical course of action if we want to avoid being a bunch of Nevilles.



#1513 Laker

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 06:18 PM

Good old Neville was in many ways influenced by the actions of good old Dad in his Dad starting the Boer War.  I believe he was also influenced by Kitchener and Roberts starting the first concentrations camps during that conflict.  There were different forces in a different time that Chamberlain was dealing with.



#1514 saxdog

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:01 PM

Now McCabe wants Obama to abandon NATO signatories.  


I didn't think McCabe could dance that jig that fast.

McCabe is involved? I always thought Mrs. Miller was the brains of the operation.

 



#1515 Battlecheese

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 10:55 PM


Now McCabe wants Obama to abandon NATO signatories.  

I didn't think McCabe could dance that jig that fast.

McCabe is involved? I always thought Mrs. Miller was the brains of the operation.


What a rubbish trailer for a fantastic movie.

#1516 Battlecheese

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 10:57 PM

This apparent plot to fluff up the numbers of the rebels to justify whatever happens is Sovietski, though. They may still have the habit of believing the truth never need come out and/or nobody can do anything about it if it does.

All those mobile phones with video cameras in them are starting to get damn inconvenient.

#1517 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 10:59 PM

I  think that it's gonna get real ugly for lots of folks who are just tryin' to get by - and it's those poor fuggers that are gonna be stuck tryin' to put the pieces back together again once the dicks in charge get done w/their sausage sword fights.   Let's poll THOSE folks, find out what they want, and then figure out if/how to support it. 



#1518 kmccabe

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:39 PM

 

Sorry that you can't see the idiocy of giving away Eastern Europe. Subtle things like this sink us.

 

Sorry for you and other "independents" on this forum. 

Yoo hoo:

 

 

>This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of thi

s one.

 

 

Here you go, Jeff.  

 

 

 

oh goody  - please point out where I actually advocated stepping in and doing something please... 

 

what Obama 'chose' to do was step in with empty rhetoric. Just like Syria. Results were the same. 



#1519 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:55 PM

 

 

Sorry that you can't see the idiocy of giving away Eastern Europe. Subtle things like this sink us.

 

Sorry for you and other "independents" on this forum. 

Yoo hoo:

 

 

>This is none of our business. We REALLY need to stay out of thi

s one.

 

 

Here you go, Jeff.  

 

 

oh goody  - please point out where I actually advocated stepping in and doing something please... 

 

what Obama 'chose' to do was step in with empty rhetoric. Just like Syria. Results were the same. 

 

Please explain how you would avoid "giving away Eastern Europe" while doing nothing.  

 

Look into Putin's eyes and see his soul?  



#1520 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:02 AM

Please explain how you would avoid "giving away Eastern Europe" while doing nothing.  

 

 

Look into Putin's eyes and see his soul?  

 

I'm sorry - but you are willfully not showing an example of where I advocated 'going in'.... don't become a litigator. stick with paperwork - you'll last longer. 



#1521 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:05 AM

Please explain how you would avoid "giving away Eastern Europe" while doing nothing.  

 

 

Look into Putin's eyes and see his soul?  

 

I'm sorry - but you are willfully not showing an example of where I advocated 'going in'.... don't become a litigator. stick with paperwork - you'll last longer. 

JMD already did that, Flipper, well over a month ago, unless you can explain how you would avoid "giving away Eastern Europe" while doing nothing.  Flip flop flip flop.  That derned Kenyan got ya all switched up didn't he?  That'll teach you to go on record before he does.  



#1522 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:08 AM

 

Please explain how you would avoid "giving away Eastern Europe" while doing nothing.  

 

 

Look into Putin's eyes and see his soul?  

 

I'm sorry - but you are willfully not showing an example of where I advocated 'going in'.... don't become a litigator. stick with paperwork - you'll last longer. 

JMD already did that, Flipper, well over a month ago, unless you can explain how you would avoid "giving away Eastern Europe" while doing nothing.  Flip flop flip flop.  That derned Kenyan got ya all switched up didn't he?  That'll teach you to go on record before he does.  

 

show me Sol..



#1523 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:10 AM

The quote from JMD???

 

Gawd you're a fucking idiot... 

 

Really?? You're that stupid??

 

ROTFLMAO.

 

Stay in Florida - you're a moron.



#1524 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:10 AM

 

 

Please explain how you would avoid "giving away Eastern Europe" while doing nothing.  

 

 

Look into Putin's eyes and see his soul?  

 

I'm sorry - but you are willfully not showing an example of where I advocated 'going in'.... don't become a litigator. stick with paperwork - you'll last longer. 

JMD already did that, Flipper, well over a month ago, unless you can explain how you would avoid "giving away Eastern Europe" while doing nothing.  Flip flop flip flop.  That derned Kenyan got ya all switched up didn't he?  That'll teach you to go on record before he does.  

 

show me Sol..

See the JMD post, Flipper.  And answer the question, please.  Feel free to take the meds first.  



#1525 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:14 AM

looked at it - you're insane.



#1526 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:21 AM

looked at it - you're insane.

Please explain how you would avoid giving away Eastern Europe while doing nothing and staying out of it.  Give some guidance to those of us who lack your foreign policy acumen.  



#1527 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:24 AM

looked at it - you're insane.

Please explain how you would avoid giving away Eastern Europe while doing nothing and staying out of it.  Give some guidance to those of us who lack your foreign policy acumen.  

 

giving away something is a passive event - something you people are very fucking good at.

 

grow up.

 

edited:

 

If he had said nothing and done nothing he would not have put US prestige on the line - any losses would have been non-assigned. We wouldn't 'own' it. Like we did after the idiot and his lackey Lurch opened their mouths. 



#1528 Laker

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:35 AM

I think that with the Ukraine being the "breadbasket" of Russia, there has always been an extractive relationship between the Ukraine and Russia.  During the Holomadore, grain was being produced, but it was all taken for use in the rest of Russia.  There are still grandparent (90s)  memories of this and the hatred dies hard.  Bringing about rational decisions will be a problem.  Separation ala India/Pakistan (Ukraine/Donetz) will only ascerbate the problem even if the Donetz join Russia.



#1529 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:00 AM

I think that with the Ukraine being the "breadbasket" of Russia, there has always been an extractive relationship between the Ukraine and Russia.  During the Holomadore, grain was being produced, but it was all taken for use in the rest of Russia.  There are still grandparent (90s)  memories of this and the hatred dies hard.  Bringing about rational decisions will be a problem.  Separation ala India/Pakistan (Ukraine/Donetz) will only ascerbate the problem even if the Donetz join Russia.

 

Russia STARVED the Ukraine in the 1930's under Stalin. 



#1530 Remodel

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:42 AM

Thomas Friedman's take on this from today's NYT:

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ef=opinion&_r=0

I like that.  The one thing we should be doing is offering a competing product.  Keystone is going to pass eventually, it's just a matter of when Congress decides that API has spent enough money to buy it.  I don't think it should be allowed, without a guarantee that it is only for domestic use, to put some actual meaning in the rhetorical "reduce our dependence on foreign oil" catch phrase.  But that is not what the API is paying for, so it will not happen.  Might as well tie it to something that benefits the country.  

Nice thought, but the stated purpose is to let refineries in LA and TX turn the muddy brown goo and ship it oversees. China being the prime beneficiary. China is already poised to buy from the west coast of Canada if we don't build the pipeline and the Canadians can find a way to ship it to BC.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think we should build the damn thing if we can do it well, and we should make what money we can off of it while we can. Just don't be deceived by the canard that it has anything whatsoever to do with energy independence.



#1531 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:46 AM

 

Thomas Friedman's take on this from today's NYT:

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ef=opinion&_r=0

I like that.  The one thing we should be doing is offering a competing product.  Keystone is going to pass eventually, it's just a matter of when Congress decides that API has spent enough money to buy it.  I don't think it should be allowed, without a guarantee that it is only for domestic use, to put some actual meaning in the rhetorical "reduce our dependence on foreign oil" catch phrase.  But that is not what the API is paying for, so it will not happen.  Might as well tie it to something that benefits the country.  

Nice thought, but the stated purpose is to let refineries in LA and TX turn the muddy brown goo and ship it oversees. China being the prime beneficiary. China is already poised to buy from the west coast of Canada if we don't build the pipeline and the Canadians can find a way to ship it to BC.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think we should build the damn thing if we can do it well, and we should make what money we can off of it while we can. Just don't be deceived by the canard that it has anything whatsoever to do with energy independence.

The API will never let it be restricted to domestic use.  It is a nice thought, but that restriction will never happen.  It will happen sooner or later, might as well be sooner, so it requires less $peech from K Street.  



#1532 Laker

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:50 AM

I think that with the Ukraine being the "breadbasket" of Russia, there has always been an extractive relationship between the Ukraine and Russia.  During the Holomadore, grain was being produced, but it was all taken for use in the rest of Russia.  There are still grandparent (90s)  memories of this and the hatred dies hard.  Bringing about rational decisions will be a problem.  Separation ala India/Pakistan (Ukraine/Donetz) will only ascerbate the problem even if the Donetz join Russia.

 

Russia STARVED the Ukraine in the 1930's under Stalin. 

Yes, the Holomadore.  And all through that time, grain was being produced and stolen.



#1533 Remodel

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:51 AM

Where the fuck is the EU, NATO and the UN in this matter? Everyone is so quick to blame Obama, yet I don't see the E fucking U doing jack shit. It's their back yard for Christ's sake.

 

From what I can see, the US, meaning Obama and both parties that make up the US Congress have done more than all these multinational bodies put together. So before I start pointing fingers at anyone in the US, I'll kick the can across the pond to those who have the most to lose and should be doing something about it.

 

If you think the US has lost prestige, consider how much worse it must be for the so called "Powers" of Western Europe.



#1534 Saorsa

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:04 AM

 

 

Thomas Friedman's take on this from today's NYT:

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ef=opinion&_r=0

I like that.  The one thing we should be doing is offering a competing product.  Keystone is going to pass eventually, it's just a matter of when Congress decides that API has spent enough money to buy it.  I don't think it should be allowed, without a guarantee that it is only for domestic use, to put some actual meaning in the rhetorical "reduce our dependence on foreign oil" catch phrase.  But that is not what the API is paying for, so it will not happen.  Might as well tie it to something that benefits the country.  

Nice thought, but the stated purpose is to let refineries in LA and TX turn the muddy brown goo and ship it oversees. China being the prime beneficiary. China is already poised to buy from the west coast of Canada if we don't build the pipeline and the Canadians can find a way to ship it to BC.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think we should build the damn thing if we can do it well, and we should make what money we can off of it while we can. Just don't be deceived by the canard that it has anything whatsoever to do with energy independence.

The API will never let it be restricted to domestic use.  It is a nice thought, but that restriction will never happen.  It will happen sooner or later, might as well be sooner, so it requires less $peech from K Street.  

 

Don't be silly.  If we restrict canadian oil to US domestic use we can sell our own on the open market.



#1535 Mark K

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:04 AM

I think that with the Ukraine being the "breadbasket" of Russia, there has always been an extractive relationship between the Ukraine and Russia.  During the Holomadore, grain was being produced, but it was all taken for use in the rest of Russia.  There are still grandparent (90s)  memories of this and the hatred dies hard.  Bringing about rational decisions will be a problem.  Separation ala India/Pakistan (Ukraine/Donetz) will only ascerbate the problem even if the Donetz join Russia.

The people in the western part have some clear cultural distinctions from the east. Once part of the Hapsburg empire. The linguist's joke on Ukrainian: "Is it bad Russian or is it bad Polish?" This came to a bad end in WW2. There aren't a lot of Russian/Ukrainian families who do not have several members who died in the Kiev salient. The eastern end has a lot of families who can say the same about the Nazi/Soviet pact and Stalin's tender paternalism of de-kulaking them. Many of them enthusiastically joined the SS Galacia Division.

In 2010 they erected a statue to a Nazi, and by honoring Stepan Bandera they had to know they were deliberately offending all of their own people who consider themselves ethnic Russians.


http://hnn.us/article/122778

It's telling that the Russians have taken to wearing the St. George ribbon to honor the dead in Odessa, it was their primary symbol of victory over Nazi Germany.

#1536 Tom Ray

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:15 AM

looked at it - you're insane.

Please explain how you would avoid giving away Eastern Europe while doing nothing and staying out of it.  Give some guidance to those of us who lack your foreign policy acumen.  

 


Not my shitfight, but I can't resist.

 

I'd avoid giving it away by avoiding owning it in the fist place.

 

What? We don't own it? Problem solved!



#1537 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:22 AM

 

looked at it - you're insane.

Please explain how you would avoid giving away Eastern Europe while doing nothing and staying out of it.  Give some guidance to those of us who lack your foreign policy acumen.  

 


Not my shitfight, but I can't resist.

 

I'd avoid giving it away by avoiding owning it in the fist place.

 

What? We don't own it? Problem solved!

 

How the fuck do you give away something you don’t own? 



#1538 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:16 PM

 

looked at it - you're insane.

Please explain how you would avoid giving away Eastern Europe while doing nothing and staying out of it.  Give some guidance to those of us who lack your foreign policy acumen.  

 


Not my shitfight, but I can't resist.

 

I'd avoid giving it away by avoiding owning it in the fist place.

 

What? We don't own it? Problem solved!

 

a subtlety lost to many ham fisted low information, dogmatic - yet induhpendant types.  



#1539 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 01:43 PM

 

 

looked at it - you're insane.

Please explain how you would avoid giving away Eastern Europe while doing nothing and staying out of it.  Give some guidance to those of us who lack your foreign policy acumen.  

 


Not my shitfight, but I can't resist.

 

I'd avoid giving it away by avoiding owning it in the fist place.

 

What? We don't own it? Problem solved!

 

a subtlety lost to many ham fisted low information, dogmatic - yet induhpendant types.  

 

I thought you were against giving away eastern europe.  Ignoring/avoiding it does not avoid giving away eastern europe.  That just appeases another Hitler, as someone pointed out earlier....  Flip flop.  Flip flop.

 

Apparently, that subtlety is lost to imagined information, flip flopping types.  

 

First the Citizens United flip flop, now this.  You should really be more patient to state what you think about an issue, to make sure that The Party doesn't pull the rug out from under you again by taking a contrary position.  It must drive the pharmacy bill through the roof.  



#1540 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:59 PM

Wow Solly good comeback. 

 

I thought you were against giving away eastern europe.  Ignoring/avoiding it does not avoid giving away eastern europe.  That just appeases another Hitler, as someone pointed out earlier....  Flip flop.  Flip flop.

 

Apparently, that subtlety is lost to imagined information, flip flopping types.  

 

First the Citizens United flip flop, now this.  You should really be more patient to state what you think about an issue, to make sure that The Party doesn't pull the rug out from under you again by taking a contrary position.  It must drive the pharmacy bill through the roof.  q1`

 

Wow - isn't that cool Solly responds, and refuses to see what others have seen pretty clearly. I've been pretty clear about this from beginning.  

 

Don't become a litigator. You'll starve. 

 

Bad choice old boy.



#1541 Battlecheese

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:40 PM




looked at it - you're insane.

Please explain how you would avoid giving away Eastern Europe while doing nothing and staying out of it.  Give some guidance to those of us who lack your foreign policy acumen.


 

Not my shitfight, but I can't resist.
 
I'd avoid giving it away by avoiding owning it in the fist place.
 
What? We don't own it? Problem solved!


 
a subtlety lost to many ham fisted low information, dogmatic - yet induhpendant types.


It's all very well to say "don't own it", but this position of yours seems to dodge around the issue that "owning it" has been a focal point of US foreign policy in the region ever since the demise of the USSR.

Yet I don't see a real lot of cursing GHW Bush or anyone since then relating to this issue.
Edit: Except for the O of course. Plenty of criticism of him. But bashing on the current incumbent misses the bigger picture.

#1542 kmccabe

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:48 PM

I bash on the person responsible for Foreign Policy - that rests with two incompetents, Barack Obama and his good, but stupid, butler Lurch.

 

Here's a pitcher for Solly - to prove I'm funnneee

 

Kerry+Lurch+Khazar.jpg



#1543 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:49 AM

Obummer should have done nothing, while ensuring that Eastern Europe wasn't given away by appeasing Adolph Putin.  Thanks Obama!



#1544 Battlecheese

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:17 AM

I bash on the person responsible for Foreign Policy - that rests with two incompetents, Barack Obama and his good, but stupid, butler Lurch.

And while the electorate continues to argue about politics with the sophistication of toddlers, you will continue to get the representatives that you deserve.

#1545 TheFlash

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:20 AM

That's a slam on toddlers.



#1546 Mark K

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 05:03 AM

 Tea Tards just have a hard time processing much anything without sprinkling ODS all over it. Some sort of hatred for him or his wife, perhaps extending it to black people in general or Democrats. They don't sometimes even know they just did it too. Here's a video of one of Glenn Beck's flying monkeys denying something he just said two minutes previous about Michelle Obama, and getting caught on it. 

 

"http://videos.rawsto...ut=&read_more=1



#1547 Laker

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 04:37 PM

Viewed in terms of game theory, the whole Ukrainian thing is interesting.  Watching who is playing red vs blue at any one time above the heads of the Ukrainian government is entertaining if one discounts the the terrible consequences of NATO/Putin taking it seriously.



#1548 kmccabe

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 04:47 PM

Viewed in terms of game theory, the whole Ukrainian thing is interesting.  Watching who is playing red vs blue at any one time above the heads of the Ukrainian government is entertaining if one discounts the the terrible consequences of NATO/Putin taking it seriously.

 

Yea, it's fun until somebody gets hurt. Oh wait. 



#1549 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 01:11 PM

Compliments of us tax donkey...

http://m.youtube.com...e=youtube_gdata

#1550 Mark K

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:02 PM

Viewed in terms of game theory, the whole Ukrainian thing is interesting.  Watching who is playing red vs blue at any one time above the heads of the Ukrainian government is entertaining if one discounts the the terrible consequences of NATO/Putin taking it seriously.

 

  The other danger is triggering one of those long lasting civil wars. Can go on for decades, like "The Troubles", to cite but one example. They quite frequently last until at least one side exhausts their supply of knuckleheads. The Hatfield's and McCoy's weren't large families but that took about 50 years for them to accomplish, IIRC. 



#1551 Battlecheese

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 12:53 PM

2008 - US Embassy Moscow: Um guys... We've been talking to the Russians. They seem to think that letting Ukraine into NATO might cause a civil war....

http://wikileaks.org...8MOSCOW265.html

VZCZCXYZ0000
OO RUEHWEB

DE RUEHMO #0265/01 0321425
ZNY CCCCC ZZH
O 011425Z FEB 08
FM AMEMBASSY MOSCOW
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 6368
INFO RUEHXD/MOSCOW POLITICAL COLLECTIVE IMMEDIATE
RUEHZG/NATO EU COLLECTIVE IMMEDIATE
RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHDC IMMEDIATE
RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHDC IMMEDIATE
RHEHNSC/NSC WASHDC IMMEDIATE


C O N F I D E N T I A L MOSCOW 000265

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 01/30/2018
TAGS: PREL NATO UP RS
SUBJECT: NYET MEANS NYET: RUSSIA'S NATO ENLARGEMENT
REDLINES

REF: A. MOSCOW 147
¶B. MOSCOW 182

Classified By: Ambassador William J. Burns. Reasons 1.4 ( B) and (d).

¶1. © Summary. Following a muted first reaction to
Ukraine's intent to seek a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP)
at the Bucharest summit (ref A), Foreign Minister Lavrov and
other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition,
stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion
as a potential military threat. NATO enlargement,
particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic"
issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also
underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and
Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue
could potentially split the country in two, leading to
violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force
Russia to decide whether to intervene. Additionally, the GOR
and experts continue to claim that Ukrainian NATO membership
would have a major impact on Russia's defense industry,
Russian-Ukrainian family connections, and bilateral relations
generally. In Georgia, the GOR fears continued instability
and "provocative acts" in the separatist regions. End
summary.

MFA: NATO Enlargement "Potential Military Threat to Russia"
--------------------------------------------- --------------

¶2. (U) During his annual review of Russia's foreign policy
January 22-23 (ref B), Foreign Minister Lavrov stressed that
Russia had to view continued eastward expansion of NATO,
particularly to Ukraine and Georgia, as a potential military
threat. While Russia might believe statements from the West
that NATO was not directed against Russia, when one looked at
recent military activities in NATO countries (establishment
of U.S. forward operating locations, etc. they had to be
evaluated not by stated intentions but by potential. Lavrov
stressed that maintaining Russia's "sphere of influence" in
the neighborhood was anachronistic, and acknowledged that the
U.S. and Europe had "legitimate interests" in the region.
But, he argued, while countries were free to make their own
decisions about their security and which political-military
structures to join, they needed to keep in mind the impact on
their neighbors.

¶3. (U) Lavrov emphasized that Russia was convinced that
enlargement was not based on security reasons, but was a
legacy of the Cold War. He disputed arguments that NATO was
an appropriate mechanism for helping to strengthen democratic
governments. He said that Russia understood that NATO was in
search of a new mission, but there was a growing tendency for
new members to do and say whatever they wanted simply because
they were under the NATO umbrella (e.g. attempts of some new
member countries to "rewrite history and glorify fascists").

¶4. (U) During a press briefing January 22 in response to a
question about Ukraine's request for a MAP, the MFA said "a
radical new expansion of NATO may bring about a serious
political-military shift that will inevitably affect the
security interests of Russia." The spokesman went on to
stress that Russia was bound with Ukraine by bilateral
obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship,
Cooperation and Partnership in which both parties undertook
to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions
capable of prejudicing the security of the other Side." The
spokesman noted that Ukraine's "likely integration into NATO
would seriously complicate the many-sided Russian-Ukrainian
relations," and that Russia would "have to take appropriate
measures." The spokesman added that "one has the impression
that the present Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement
with NATO largely as an alternative to good-neighborly ties
with the Russian Federation."

Russian Opposition Neuralgic and Concrete
-----------------------------------------

¶5. © Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touch
a raw nerve in Russia, they engender serious concerns about
the consequences for stability in the region. Not only does
Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine
Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears
unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would
seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us
that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions
in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the
ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a
major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In
that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to

intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.

¶6. © Dmitriy Trenin, Deputy Director of the Carnegie
Moscow Center, expressed concern that Ukraine was, in the
long-term, the most potentially destabilizing factor in
U.S.-Russian relations, given the level of emotion and
neuralgia triggered by its quest for NATO membership. The
letter requesting MAP consideration had come as a "bad
surprise" to Russian officials, who calculated that Ukraine's
NATO aspirations were safely on the backburner. With its
public letter, the issue had been "sharpened." Because
membership remained divisive in Ukrainian domestic politics,
it created an opening for Russian intervention. Trenin
expressed concern that elements within the Russian
establishment would be encouraged to meddle, stimulating U.S.
overt encouragement of opposing political forces, and leaving
the U.S. and Russia in a classic confrontational posture.
The irony, Trenin professed, was that Ukraine's membership
would defang NATO, but neither the Russian public nor elite
opinion was ready for that argument. Ukraine's gradual shift
towards the West was one thing, its preemptive status as a de
jure U.S. military ally another. Trenin cautioned strongly
against letting an internal Ukrainian fight for power, where
MAP was merely a lever in domestic politics, further
complicate U.S.-Russian relations now.

¶7. © Another issue driving Russian opposition to Ukrainian
membership is the significant defense industry cooperation
the two countries share, including a number of plants where
Russian weapons are made. While efforts are underway to shut
down or move most of these plants to Russia, and to move the
Black Sea fleet from Sevastopol to Novorossiysk earlier than
the 2017 deadline, the GOR has made clear that Ukraine's
joining NATO would require Russia to make major (costly)
changes to its defense industrial cooperation.

¶8. © Similarly, the GOR and experts note that there would
also be a significant impact on Russian-Ukrainian economic
and labor relations, including the effect on thousands of
Ukrainians living and working in Russia and vice versa, due
to the necessity of imposing a new visa regime. This,
Aleksandr Konovalov, Director of the Institute for Strategic
Assessment, argued, would become a boiling cauldron of anger
and resentment among the local population.

¶9. © With respect to Georgia, most experts said that while
not as neuralgic to Russia as Ukraine, the GOR viewed the
situation there as too unstable to withstand the divisiveness
NATO membership could cause. Aleksey Arbatov, Deputy
Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, argued that Georgia's
NATO aspirations were simply a way to solve its problems in
Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and warned that Russia would be
put in a difficult situation were that to ensue.

Russia's Response
-----------------

¶10. © The GOR has made it clear that it would have to
"seriously review" its entire relationship with Ukraine and
Georgia in the event of NATO inviting them to join. This
could include major impacts on energy, economic, and
political-military engagement, with possible repercussions
throughout the region and into Central and Western Europe.
Russia would also likely revisit its own relationship with
the Alliance and activities in the NATO-Russia Council, and
consider further actions in the arms control arena, including
the possibility of complete withdrawal from the CFE and INF
Treaties, and more direct threats against U.S. missile
defense plans.

¶11. © Isabelle Francois, Director of the NATO Information
Office in Moscow (protect), said she believed that Russia had
accepted that Ukraine and Georgia would eventually join NATO
and was engaged in long-term planning to reconfigure its
relations with both countries, and with the Alliance.
However, Russia was not yet ready to deal with the
consequences of further NATO enlargement to its south. She
added that while Russia liked the cooperation with NATO in
the NATO-Russia Council, Russia would feel it necessary to
insist on recasting the NATO-Russia relationship, if not
withdraw completely from the NRC, in the event of Ukraine and
Georgia joining NATO.

Comment
-------

¶12. © Russia's opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine
and Georgia is both emotional and based on perceived

strategic concerns about the impact on Russia's interests in
the region. It is also politically popular to paint the U.S.
and NATO as Russia's adversaries and to use NATO's outreach
to Ukraine and Georgia as a means of generating support from
Russian nationalists. While Russian opposition to the first
round of NATO enlargement in the mid-1990's was strong,
Russia now feels itself able to respond more forcefully to
what it perceives as actions contrary to its national
interests.
BURNS



#1552 2slow

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:00 PM

Thanks Battlecheese. How incompetent can our leadership be. They acted like Russia's reaction to a western led coup of Ukraine was a surprise. Jesus fucking Christ, amazing

#1553 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:20 PM

Thanks Battlecheese. How incompetent can our leadership be. They acted like Russia's reaction to a western led coup of Ukraine was a surprise. Jesus fucking Christ, amazing


The neocons need a war, or at least a reason to argue for a bunch of borrowing and spending on our "defense".

#1554 saxdog

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:26 PM

Where the fuck is the EU, NATO and the UN in this matter? Everyone is so quick to blame Obama, yet I don't see the E fucking U doing jack shit. It's their back yard for Christ's sake.

 

From what I can see, the US, meaning Obama and both parties that make up the US Congress have done more than all these multinational bodies put together. So before I start pointing fingers at anyone in the US, I'll kick the can across the pond to those who have the most to lose and should be doing something about it.

 

If you think the US has lost prestige, consider how much worse it must be for the so called "Powers" of Western Europe.

This is a financial calculus for the EU. The EU has decided the price of allowing Putin control of Ukraine is a lot lower than the price he would extract from the EU by cutting off the gas. Is this creating an invitation for Putin to take more in the future? 



#1555 Sean

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 06:12 PM

Getting uglier still -
http://m.apnews.com/...ntguid=f0Af0jfF

KRASNOARMEISK, Ukraine (AP) - Ukrainian national guardsmen opened fire Sunday on a crowd outside a town hall in eastern Ukraine and an official for the region's insurgents said there were fatalities.

The bloodshed in the town of Krasnoarmeisk occurred hours after dozens of guardsmen shut down voting in a referendum on sovereignty for the region.

#1556 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:38 AM

Getting uglier still -
http://m.apnews.com/...ntguid=f0Af0jfF
KRASNOARMEISK, Ukraine (AP) - Ukrainian national guardsmen opened fire Sunday on a crowd outside a town hall in eastern Ukraine and an official for the region's insurgents said there were fatalities.
The bloodshed in the town of Krasnoarmeisk occurred hours after dozens of guardsmen shut down voting in a referendum on sovereignty for the region.


Why does USG support these unelected despots?

 



#1557 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:39 AM

I’m shocked....coffee1.gif

 



#1558 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:07 AM

Ah that’s nice...$$$..coffee1.gif

 

Joe Biden’s Son Appointed to Board of Directors of Ukraine’s Largest Gas Company

 

Vice President Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, has been appointed to the board of directors of Burisma Holdingsa privately-owned natural gas company operating in the Ukraine since the year 2002. Burisma Holdings has become a considerable player within the Ukrainian natural gas and oil industry, with licences covering  the Dnieper-Donets, Carpathian and Azov-Kuban basins. The production capability has reached over 10,500 barrels of oil equivalent per day (BOEPD) which has left the company with considerable reserves.

 

Hunter Biden has recently been appointed to the board of directors, from where he will oversee Burisma’s legal unit. Specifically cited by Burisma as offering support to the company among international groups, Hunter Biden’s clear qualifications for the job may be overshadowed greatly by the office of the Vice President of the United States- held by his father Joe Biden. From the Burisma press report:

 

Mr. Biden has experience in public service and foreign policy. He is a director for the U.S. Global Leadership Coalition, The Center for National Policy, and the Chairman’s Advisory Board for the National Democratic Institute. Having served as a Senior Vice President at MBNA bank, former U.S. President Bill Clinton appointed him an Executive Director of E-Commerce Policy Coordination under Secretary of Commerce William Daley. Mr. Biden served as Honorary Co-Chair of the 2008 Obama-Biden Inaugural Committee.

 

Mr. Biden is a member of the bar in the State of Connecticut, and the District of Columbia, the U.S. Supreme Court, and the Court of Federal Claims. He received a Bachelor’s degree from Georgetown University, and a J.D. from Yale Law School.

 

R. Hunter Biden is also a well-known public figure.He is chairman of the Board of the World Food Programme U.S.A., together with the world’s largest humanitarian organization, theUnited Nations World Food Programme. In this capacity he offers assistance to the poor in developing countries, fighting hunger and poverty, and helping to provide food and education to 300 million malnourished children around the world.

 

Regardless of blurred lines of interest, it appears that the White House’s role in the current revolutionary atmosphere of the Ukraine has just gotten more complicated.  Now, with  a direct line to the largest private oil and gas producer in the Ukraine, the Obama administration may have earned themselves a new seat of power at the bargaining table with Russia regarding which direction Ukrainian politics and sovereignty should move.

 

http://www.thewestwi...ne-gas-company/



#1559 Saorsa

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:33 AM

Ya know, Joe's annual revelation of his income tax return always shows a relatively modest income.  It's good to know his kids will be able to care for him in his dotage.

 

It never did make sense to me that the sanctions would be directed to individuals instead of Russia as a nation.  It might be interesting to see the relationship between some of the Ukrainian rich folks and those that the administration has targetted with sanctions.



#1560 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 09:40 AM

Double dealing........whistling.gif

 



#1561 kmccabe

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 01:04 PM

I’m shocked....coffee1.gif

 

 

Oh kooky Russian TV is saying something bad about the US in the Ukraine. 

 

We need Olsonist to come over and yawn. 

 

I'll do it.

 

Yawn.  He'd be right if he did. 



#1562 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 06:42 AM

U.S. Neo-con Senator from Arazona to the rescue...coffee1.gif

 

Statement by Senator John McCain on introducing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014

 

Washington, D.C. ­– U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ) today released the following statement on joining 20 Senate colleagues in introducing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014 to advance a strategic U.S. response to deter Russian aggression in Europe:

“My colleagues and I are introducing this legislation today for one simple reason: The U.S. and European response to Russia’s aggression in Ukraine is failing. It is failing not because we are doing nothing, but because nothing we are doing has changed President Putin’s calculus. This weak response is not deterring Putin, and in fact, it is actually inviting further acts of aggression.

“We have been critics of the Administration’s approach, but we also believe that it is our responsibility to offer a better alternative. That is what this legislation does, with specific provisions to:

  • “Impose much tougher sanctions on Russia.
  • “Do more to expose and crack down on Russian corruption and its malign effects, including by requiring the U.S. government to issue a report on the personal net wealth of senior Russian officials, including the President of the Russian Federation.
  • “Authorize more robust military assistance, such as anti-air, anti-tank, and other defensive weapons, for Ukraine.
  • “Offer greater support for our allies in central Europe and push for a bolder strategic response from NATO to Putin’s aggression.
  • “Do more to shore up key partners such as Moldova and Georgia.
  • “Begin to get more U.S. energy into European markets.

“The Administration wants a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine. So do we. The Administration wants to prevent conflict with Russia. So do we. But unless our diplomacy is backed by greater pressure on Russia, diplomacy cannot be effective, and Putin’s aggression will continue to grow and may spread beyond Ukraine. The Administration is not imposing enough costs on Russia. Our legislation would.”

The Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014 is co-sponsored by Senators Mitch McConnell (R-KY), Bob Corker (R-TN) Kelly Ayotte (R-NH), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), John Hoeven (R-ND), Roy Blunt (R-MO), Marco Rubio (R-FL), John Cornyn (R-TX), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Mark Kirk (R-IL), John Barrasso (R-WY), Jim Risch (R-ID), Dan Coats (R-IN), Pat Roberts (R-KS), Johnny Isakson (R-GA), Jim Inhofe (R-OK), Rob Portman (R-OH), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), John Thune (R-SD) and Jeff Flake (R-AZ).

http://www.kyivpost....014-345916.html



#1563 Saorsa

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 11:43 AM

U.S. Neo-con Senator from Arazona to the rescue...coffee1.gif

 

Statement by Senator John McCain on introducing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014

 

Washington, D.C. ­– U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ) today released the following statement on joining 20 Senate colleagues in introducing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014 to advance a strategic U.S. response to deter Russian aggression in Europe:

“My colleagues and I are introducing this legislation today for one simple reason: The U.S. and European response to Russia’s aggression in Ukraine is failing. It is failing not because we are doing nothing, but because nothing we are doing has changed President Putin’s calculus. This weak response is not deterring Putin, and in fact, it is actually inviting further acts of aggression.

“We have been critics of the Administration’s approach, but we also believe that it is our responsibility to offer a better alternative. That is what this legislation does, with specific provisions to:

  • “Impose much tougher sanctions on Russia.
  • “Do more to expose and crack down on Russian corruption and its malign effects, including by requiring the U.S. government to issue a report on the personal net wealth of senior Russian officials, including the President of the Russian Federation.
  • “Authorize more robust military assistance, such as anti-air, anti-tank, and other defensive weapons, for Ukraine.
  • “Offer greater support for our allies in central Europe and push for a bolder strategic response from NATO to Putin’s aggression.
  • “Do more to shore up key partners such as Moldova and Georgia.
  • “Begin to get more U.S. energy into European markets.

“The Administration wants a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine. So do we. The Administration wants to prevent conflict with Russia. So do we. But unless our diplomacy is backed by greater pressure on Russia, diplomacy cannot be effective, and Putin’s aggression will continue to grow and may spread beyond Ukraine. The Administration is not imposing enough costs on Russia. Our legislation would.”

The Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014 is co-sponsored by Senators Mitch McConnell (R-KY), Bob Corker (R-TN) Kelly Ayotte (R-NH), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), John Hoeven (R-ND), Roy Blunt (R-MO), Marco Rubio (R-FL), John Cornyn (R-TX), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Mark Kirk (R-IL), John Barrasso (R-WY), Jim Risch (R-ID), Dan Coats (R-IN), Pat Roberts (R-KS), Johnny Isakson (R-GA), Jim Inhofe (R-OK), Rob Portman (R-OH), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), John Thune (R-SD) and Jeff Flake (R-AZ).

http://www.kyivpost....014-345916.html

 

Are we actually imposing restrictions on Russia yet or just a few private citizens and a bank or two?



#1564 Olsonist

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 12:01 PM

Was kicking them out of the G8 and canceling the Sochi summit a sanction on Russia?

#1565 billy backstay

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 12:40 PM

 

U.S. Neo-con Senator from Arazona to the rescue...coffee1.gif

 

Statement by Senator John McCain on introducing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014

 

Washington, D.C. ­– U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ) today released the following statement on joining 20 Senate colleagues in introducing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014 to advance a strategic U.S. response to deter Russian aggression in Europe:

“My colleagues and I are introducing this legislation today for one simple reason: The U.S. and European response to Russia’s aggression in Ukraine is failing. It is failing not because we are doing nothing, but because nothing we are doing has changed President Putin’s calculus. This weak response is not deterring Putin, and in fact, it is actually inviting further acts of aggression.

“We have been critics of the Administration’s approach, but we also believe that it is our responsibility to offer a better alternative. That is what this legislation does, with specific provisions to:

  • “Impose much tougher sanctions on Russia.
  • “Do more to expose and crack down on Russian corruption and its malign effects, including by requiring the U.S. government to issue a report on the personal net wealth of senior Russian officials, including the President of the Russian Federation.
  • “Authorize more robust military assistance, such as anti-air, anti-tank, and other defensive weapons, for Ukraine.
  • “Offer greater support for our allies in central Europe and push for a bolder strategic response from NATO to Putin’s aggression.
  • “Do more to shore up key partners such as Moldova and Georgia.
  • “Begin to get more U.S. energy into European markets.

“The Administration wants a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine. So do we. The Administration wants to prevent conflict with Russia. So do we. But unless our diplomacy is backed by greater pressure on Russia, diplomacy cannot be effective, and Putin’s aggression will continue to grow and may spread beyond Ukraine. The Administration is not imposing enough costs on Russia. Our legislation would.”

The Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014 is co-sponsored by Senators Mitch McConnell (R-KY), Bob Corker (R-TN) Kelly Ayotte (R-NH), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), John Hoeven (R-ND), Roy Blunt (R-MO), Marco Rubio (R-FL), John Cornyn (R-TX), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Mark Kirk (R-IL), John Barrasso (R-WY), Jim Risch (R-ID), Dan Coats (R-IN), Pat Roberts (R-KS), Johnny Isakson (R-GA), Jim Inhofe (R-OK), Rob Portman (R-OH), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), John Thune (R-SD) and Jeff Flake (R-AZ).

http://www.kyivpost....014-345916.html

 

Are we actually imposing restrictions on Russia yet or just a few private citizens and a bank or two?

 

I think it's just Putin and some of his cronies that are being sanctioned???



#1566 Saorsa

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 12:45 PM

Was kicking them out of the G8 and canceling the Sochi summit a sanction on Russia?

 

Oh, dear, oh dear, loss of face.

 

Did they pull out of the Crimea?



#1567 Olsonist

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 05:41 PM

Was kicking them out of the G8 and canceling the Sochi summit a sanction on Russia?

 

Oh, dear, oh dear, loss of face.

 

Did they pull out of the Crimea?

 

That would be premature, no? They've been in the Crimea for quite some time, centuries. In fact, the Crimea is 60% Russian and the home of the most frikin awesome Black Fleet. Just getting comfortable in there.

 

As the Kenyan has pointed out, the Russians are a regional power.



#1568 Saorsa

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:40 PM

How much did it cost them?

 

Who gives a shit what Uhuru Kenyatta thinks?



#1569 Olsonist

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 08:48 PM

How much did it cost them?

 

How much did the Crimea (which they already had) cost The Most Overrated World Leader?

 

Russia got kicked out of the G8 and Russia is in recession now.

The ECB says $220B has left Russia. Et cetera.



#1570 Saorsa

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 09:25 PM

Print money and buy your own bonds.  No problem.

 

screen-shot-2013-12-12-at-2-21-31-pm.png



#1571 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 01:24 AM

 

U.S. Neo-con Senator from Arazona to the rescue...coffee1.gif

 

Statement by Senator John McCain on introducing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014

 

Washington, D.C. ­– U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ) today released the following statement on joining 20 Senate colleagues in introducing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014 to advance a strategic U.S. response to deter Russian aggression in Europe:

“My colleagues and I are introducing this legislation today for one simple reason: The U.S. and European response to Russia’s aggression in Ukraine is failing. It is failing not because we are doing nothing, but because nothing we are doing has changed President Putin’s calculus. This weak response is not deterring Putin, and in fact, it is actually inviting further acts of aggression.

“We have been critics of the Administration’s approach, but we also believe that it is our responsibility to offer a better alternative. That is what this legislation does, with specific provisions to:

  • “Impose much tougher sanctions on Russia.
  • “Do more to expose and crack down on Russian corruption and its malign effects, including by requiring the U.S. government to issue a report on the personal net wealth of senior Russian officials, including the President of the Russian Federation.
  • “Authorize more robust military assistance, such as anti-air, anti-tank, and other defensive weapons, for Ukraine.
  • “Offer greater support for our allies in central Europe and push for a bolder strategic response from NATO to Putin’s aggression.
  • “Do more to shore up key partners such as Moldova and Georgia.
  • “Begin to get more U.S. energy into European markets.

“The Administration wants a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine. So do we. The Administration wants to prevent conflict with Russia. So do we. But unless our diplomacy is backed by greater pressure on Russia, diplomacy cannot be effective, and Putin’s aggression will continue to grow and may spread beyond Ukraine. The Administration is not imposing enough costs on Russia. Our legislation would.”

The Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014 is co-sponsored by Senators Mitch McConnell (R-KY), Bob Corker (R-TN) Kelly Ayotte (R-NH), Lamar Alexander (R-TN), John Hoeven (R-ND), Roy Blunt (R-MO), Marco Rubio (R-FL), John Cornyn (R-TX), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Mark Kirk (R-IL), John Barrasso (R-WY), Jim Risch (R-ID), Dan Coats (R-IN), Pat Roberts (R-KS), Johnny Isakson (R-GA), Jim Inhofe (R-OK), Rob Portman (R-OH), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), John Thune (R-SD) and Jeff Flake (R-AZ).

http://www.kyivpost....014-345916.html

 

Are we actually imposing restrictions on Russia yet or just a few private citizens and a bank or two?

 

Not really, but this bill, if passed will include among other things an additional ten billion in debt for regime change in Russia in addition to the five billion already lost meddling in Ukraine politics. 



#1572 Olsonist

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 06:22 PM

I hate it when that happens. Our loyal members of the Red Army will be sad. Don't be sad.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...-elections.html



#1573 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 07:17 PM

I hate it when that happens. Our loyal members of the Red Army will be sad. Don't be sad.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...-elections.html

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens next - especially if the new President tries to re-establish Crimean territory.   Best hopes for the folks that live there, living thru war sucks, and it must suck even worse if it's happening in your backyard. 



#1574 Olsonist

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 10:46 PM

I expect some more back and forth but Putin will eventually see that the Black Sea port that he already had came at a very stiff price. So much for how the big boys play the game.

#1575 Mark K

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 06:29 AM

I expect some more back and forth but Putin will eventually see that the Black Sea port that he already had came at a very stiff price. So much for how the big boys play the game.

 

  He knew there would be a downside. Letting our and the EU's bankers and neocons transform the Ukraine into a hostile nation is a no-go for Russia, not without a fight anyway.

 

 Why are we fucking with them?



#1576 Olsonist

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 06:34 AM

I see your point but if the Ukrainians weren't hostile to the Russkis then they sure as fuck are now. BTW, I think this was Yanukovich overreaching not Putin. This was not unlike Georgia when Gurgenidze/Saakashvili overstepped. Great game inverted.

#1577 Mark K

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 06:49 AM

I hate it when that happens. Our loyal members of the Red Army will be sad. Don't be sad.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...-elections.html

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens next - especially if the new President tries to re-establish Crimean territory.   Best hopes for the folks that live there, living thru war sucks, and it must suck even worse if it's happening in your backyard. 

 

 

  Yes, but the folks in control of the Ukraine may feel a war to get all those Crimean pro-Russian votes back in their system lickity split isn't high priority. 



#1578 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:38 AM

I expect some more back and forth but Putin will eventually see that the Black Sea port that he already had came at a very stiff price. So much for how the big boys play the game.

 
  He knew there would be a downside. Letting our and the EU's bankers and neocons transform the Ukraine into a hostile nation is a no-go for Russia, not without a fight anyway.
 
 Why are we fucking with them?

Ask the neoliberals...

#1579 Olsonist

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 06:41 PM

Apparently this is how the big boys play the game.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...in-blinked.html



#1580 Sol Rosenberg

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 06:51 PM

Apparently this is how the big boys play the game.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...in-blinked.html

Red alert!  Red Alert!  We're gonna need a messenger attack on this, toot sweet.  Something about the Grey Lady not having balls this time would be best.  Get to work.  

 

Friedman has it all wrong.  Obummer should have been stronger but taken less action.  



#1581 Mark K

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:05 PM

Friedman thinks it's over.  Not sure about that.  That RW militia wearing Ukrainian Army uniforms (they had to do that, after their PIR's either surrendered or defected en masse when they were sent east) may not have the discipline needed to use no more violence than necessary. The lack of prisoners from their airport take-down this week indicates this, there should have been some wounded prisoners. 

 

  Putin has promised he will not stand by and let a slaughter take place in there. I think this is all about earning respect for his red lines myself, so I suspect Friedman is spiking the ball a little early here. 



#1582 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:15 PM

 

I hate it when that happens. Our loyal members of the Red Army will be sad. Don't be sad.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...-elections.html

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens next - especially if the new President tries to re-establish Crimean territory.   Best hopes for the folks that live there, living thru war sucks, and it must suck even worse if it's happening in your backyard. 

 

 

  Yes, but the folks in control of the Ukraine may feel a war to get all those Crimean pro-Russian votes back in their system lickity split isn't high priority. 

 

Here's hoping you're right.... The world doesn't need that, there. 



#1583 Saorsa

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:15 PM

Apparently this is how the big boys play the game.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...in-blinked.html

Red alert!  Red Alert!  We're gonna need a messenger attack on this, toot sweet.  Something about the Grey Lady not having balls this time would be best.  Get to work.  

 

Friedman has it all wrong.  Obummer should have been stronger but taken less action.  

 

Revisionist history.

 

There was a moment at the height of the Cuban missile crisis in October 1962 when Soviet ships approached to within just a few miles of a U.S. naval blockade and then, at the last minute, turned back — prompting then-Secretary of State Dean Rusk to utter one of the most famous lines from the Cold War:  “We’re eyeball to eyeball, and I think the other fellow just blinked.”

 

The US blinked and said they would pull their missiles out of Turkey.



#1584 Olsonist

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:15 PM

Agreed. But doubtlessly Putin believed they would, in fact, be greeted as liberators.



#1585 Saorsa

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:25 PM

Agreed. But doubtlessly Putin believed they would, in fact, be greeted as liberators.

 

We didn't know what was being pulled over Cuba and we don't know what is being pulled over the Ukraine.

 

Certainly, the Crimea is forgotten and old news.



#1586 Mark K

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 09:47 PM

This one appears to be moving past the posturing and first round of trading jabs, and is either going to settle down or the exchanging hay-makers will commence, so here's something about the background from one of the wiki-leaks diplo cables.

 

https://wikileaks.or...OSCOW265_a.html

 

It appears they put a lot of effort in letting us know they were not going to back down in 2008. Why did we continue to poke the bear? What's the Ukraine to us?  



#1587 Battlecheese

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:25 PM

This one appears to be moving past the posturing and first round of trading jabs, and is either going to settle down or the exchanging hay-makers will commence, so here's something about the background from one of the wiki-leaks diplo cables.
 
https://wikileaks.or...OSCOW265_a.html
 
It appears they put a lot of effort in letting us know they were not going to back down in 2008. Why did we continue to poke the bear? What's the Ukraine to us?

A few weeks late with this one? See post 1551.

#1588 tuk tuk joe

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:42 PM

This one appears to be moving past the posturing and first round of trading jabs, and is either going to settle down or the exchanging hay-makers will commence, so here's something about the background from one of the wiki-leaks diplo cables.
 
https://wikileaks.or...OSCOW265_a.html
 
It appears they put a lot of effort in letting us know they were not going to back down in 2008. Why did we continue to poke the bear? What's the Ukraine to us?

A few weeks late with this one? See post 1551.

 

Mark is always a bit late..;) But better late than never...



#1589 Olsonist

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:37 PM

Biden: Mr. Prime Minister, I’m looking into your eyes, and I don’t think you have a soul.

 

http://www.huffingto..._n_5605465.html

http://www.newyorker...28/biden-agenda

 

Of course, I'm an atheist so I don't think Putin has a soul anyways but I get Biden's drift.






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