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Mc38 - can it be made cat 1?


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#1 Estar

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:06 AM

Looking at the spec sheet they have a number of optional extras to make it cat 2 . . . But is there something fundamental which means it can not be cat 1?

#2 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:16 AM

Paging Jono or Harry to the blue courtesy phone...



#3 us7070

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:41 AM

Looking at the spec sheet they have a number of optional extras to make it cat 2 . . . But is there something fundamental which means it can not be cat 1?

 

have you ever seen one?

 

I wouldn't do a cat 1 race in one, no matter what they did to it...

 

i think they are great boats though.



#4 Rawhide

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:41 AM

Yes can get cat 1. But u are not getting me going in that hole behind the companion way.

Yes can get cat 1. But u are not getting me going in that hole behind the companion way.

#5 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:06 AM

if you can do the Hobart in a Mumm 30, you might as well give it a shot in a MC38.  I would go and I'm sure there are 6 or 7 nut cases like me to work the boat!



#6 umpire

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:05 AM


Looking at the spec sheet they have a number of optional extras to make it cat 2 . . . But is there something fundamental which means it can not be cat 1?

 
have you ever seen one?
 
I wouldn't do a cat 1 race in one, no matter what they did to it...
 
i think they are great boats though.

I agree with you. Had a look at one in Sydney recently and not sure I would like to be caught in the Bass Straight on one.

#7 lydia

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:06 AM

Not so sure about that given that a Mumm 30 has like twice the freeboard of a Mc38.

Not sure where you put the breathing apparatus.

So if I get one you are all good Clean?



#8 Just a Skosh

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:47 PM

if you can do the Hobart in a Mumm 30, you might as well give it a shot in a MC38.  I would go and I'm sure there are 6 or 7 nut cases like me to work the boat!

 

You get the boat and I'll sign up as one of the nutcases.



#9 407PR

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:26 PM

The boat is amazing. A true pleasure to sail. I find it interesting how most, if not all of the people that dish the boat have never sailed on one. I just did. In a variety of conditions, from 7-8  knots to 17-20 knots. In flat water, in chop, and in ocean swell. The boat is a rocket and it is perfectly at home in open ocean. It is quite wide, very stiff and very light, and it seems to float over the waves. Yes , you better pack the rear of the bus surfing downwind in swell or you will stuff it, and yes, you will get wet, but what high performance modern planning boat is different?

 

I would not enjoy going to Hobart or to Bermuda in it, but for inshore coastal racing, I cannot think of a better boat, specially for the price. And yes, I just ordered one.



#10 Just a Skosh

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:32 PM

The boat is amazing. A true pleasure to sail. I find it interesting how most, if not all of the people that dish the boat have never sailed on one. I just did. In a variety of conditions, from 7-8  knots to 17-20 knots. In flat water, in chop, and in ocean swell. The boat is a rocket and it is perfectly at home in open ocean. It is quite wide, very stiff and very light, and it seems to float over the waves. Yes , you better pack the rear of the bus surfing downwind in swell or you will stuff it, and yes, you will get wet, but what high performance modern planning boat is different?

 

I would not enjoy going to Hobart or to Bermuda in it, but for inshore coastal racing, I cannot think of a better boat, specially for the price. And yes, I just ordered one.

 

Are you in the US?



#11 us7070

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:48 PM

if you can do the Hobart in a Mumm 30, you might as well give it a shot in a MC38.  I would go and I'm sure there are 6 or 7 nut cases like me to work the boat!

 

You get the boat and I'll sign up as one of the nutcases.

 

i don't know S-H, not having done it myself. N-B is also cat 1, so i'll use that for purposes of discussion.

 

it's not that you wouldn't make it...,9 times out of 10, you probably would make it - and maybe not even be all that uncomfortable

 

we haven't had a large storm in a N-B race for a while, and I think some sailors figure it's always going to be pretty easy.

 

i'm pretty sure that if you had an MC38, and the forecast was for a mostly upwind race in gale or storm conditions, you'd be sitting around the night before discussing whether or not you should pull the plug.

 

is that really how we want offshore racing to develop? Good sailors afraid to go because of their equipment? good sailors counting on favorable conditions in order to do an ocean race?

 

I think that an element of seamanship is having a boat that's capable of completing the race in pretty much any conditions - certainly in any conditions that they will start the race.

 

obviously there are conditions in which not many boats can complete the trip, but that doesn't invalidate my point.

 

I certainly think that an organizing authority would be ok in refusing entry to a MC 38 - if you want to race to bermuda in a MC38, you could always start your own race.

 

I really would say that if you haven't actually seen one of these boats, .., hold off judgement - the pictures of the boat don't do it justice. 

 

i do think they are amazing boats, and the OD class is a fantastic development for the sport



#12 407PR

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:48 PM

I am in Puerto Rico. We hope to race the boat in AUS and NZ one design this year and bring it home via Key West 2015. 



#13 Estar

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:23 PM

 

if you can do the Hobart in a Mumm 30, you might as well give it a shot in a MC38.  I would go and I'm sure there are 6 or 7 nut cases like me to work the boat!

 

You get the boat and I'll sign up as one of the nutcases.

 

i don't know S-H, not having done it myself. N-B is also cat 1, so i'll use that for purposes of discussion.

 

it's not that you wouldn't make it...,9 times out of 10, you probably would make it - and maybe not even be all that uncomfortable

So, lets talk NB, you say you think there is a 10% chance the boat will not make it - what do you think is the weak point - what is going to prevent the finish?  We know the crew will be uncomfortable and having an adventure (that is a positive in my book) . . .but you seem to suggest you think the boat will fail.  Do you think the rig is weak, or the keel or rudder, or the hull, or the whole boat?

 

And just to ask the question again to be sure - we are sure it will meet all the fundamental (eg boat design issues rather than gear) cat 1 requirements: eg stability, lift keel trunk, cockpit/companionway freeboard/closure, emergency exits, etc?



#14 us7070

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:30 PM

 

 

if you can do the Hobart in a Mumm 30, you might as well give it a shot in a MC38.  I would go and I'm sure there are 6 or 7 nut cases like me to work the boat!

 

You get the boat and I'll sign up as one of the nutcases.

 

i don't know S-H, not having done it myself. N-B is also cat 1, so i'll use that for purposes of discussion.

 

it's not that you wouldn't make it...,9 times out of 10, you probably would make it - and maybe not even be all that uncomfortable

So, lets talk NB, you say you think there is a 10% chance the boat will not make it - what do you think is the weak point - what is going to prevent the finish?  We know the crew will be uncomfortable and having an adventure . . .but you seem to suggest you think the boat will fail.  Do you think the rig is weak, or the keel or rudder, or the hull, or the whole boat?

 

And just to ask the question to be sure - it does ,meet all the fundamental (eg boat design issues rather than gear) cat 1 requirements: eg stability, cockpit, emergency exits, etc?

 

the weak point is the crew...

 

i think about 1/10 times, maybe more, they will choose not to go.., or drop out after starting.

 

remember, the race starts at a fixed time - they don't get to sit around and choose when to depart.

 

i don't know what will fail on the boat  - but i assume that in an ocean storm, something will



#15 407PR

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:31 PM

Talking about doing the NB or the SH in a MC38 is like talking about Wild Oats XI doing half mile Windward/ Leewards....... 

 

It could do it...... but why would you?



#16 Estar

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:33 PM

 

 

 

if you can do the Hobart in a Mumm 30, you might as well give it a shot in a MC38.  I would go and I'm sure there are 6 or 7 nut cases like me to work the boat!

 

You get the boat and I'll sign up as one of the nutcases.

 

i don't know S-H, not having done it myself. N-B is also cat 1, so i'll use that for purposes of discussion.

 

it's not that you wouldn't make it...,9 times out of 10, you probably would make it - and maybe not even be all that uncomfortable

So, lets talk NB, you say you think there is a 10% chance the boat will not make it - what do you think is the weak point - what is going to prevent the finish?  We know the crew will be uncomfortable and having an adventure . . .but you seem to suggest you think the boat will fail.  Do you think the rig is weak, or the keel or rudder, or the hull, or the whole boat?

 

And just to ask the question to be sure - it does ,meet all the fundamental (eg boat design issues rather than gear) cat 1 requirements: eg stability, cockpit, emergency exits, etc?

 

the weak point is the crew...

 

i think about 1/10 times, maybe more, they will choose not to go.., or drop out after starting.

 

remember, the race starts at a fixed time - they don't get to sit around and choose when to depart.

 

i don't know what will fail on the boat  - but i assume that in an ocean storm, something will

 

so, are you saying you think the boat is too weak for ocean sailing or not?

 

Or do you just think it is too exposed/uncomfortable for the crew?



#17 TheOffice

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:53 PM

There's a mini-Transat 650 registered for Anapolis to Bermuda.  Makes the MC38 look like a luxury ride!



#18 us7070

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:59 PM

i think it's pretty exposed.., i think it might not be so safe with big waves washing the deck...

 

i don't know enough about the boat to know whether the boat is "too weak" for an ocean storm and associated large waves.

 

i've seen them racing - they are very cool boats.

 

i'm just not sure that many people would voluntarily sail out into an ocean storm in one of them - and that's potentially what starting the N-B race entails.

 

to me, it's a basic principle of ocean racing that all the boats should be capable of starting and finishing the race in pretty much any conditions in which the race will be started. 

 

I doubt that MC38 and most crew are up for that - but i'm willing to be proved wrong

 

sure the N-B race always has boats and crew that don't or can't make it - but the difference here is that a MC38 racing to bermuda is likely to a high end program with among the best sailors in the race. do we want the best sailors dropping out because it's too rough, when a bunch of old clunkers complete the race?

 

anyway.., i said i'm willing to be proved wrong - someone who thinks the MC38 is a good ocean racing boat could  take one and sail it into storm, and report back to us!

 

i think the question is: how do we want ocean racing to develop?

 

do we want it to be an acknowledged dare-devil sport, like say wing suit flying? they don't fly in thunderstorms as far as i know..., they are doing stunts - they wait for the right conditions and go for it.

 

or should it be more like, say, back country camping - pretty safe if you start with easy hikes, and work up to more difficult and longer expeditions, learning along the way how to deal with most conditions that you might encounter.



#19 us7070

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:02 PM

There's a mini-Transat 650 registered for Anapolis to Bermuda.  Makes the MC38 look like a luxury ride!

 

the mini is a proven offshore boat - reasonably safe in pretty extreme conditions



#20 bshores

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:04 PM

There's a mini-Transat 650 registered for Anapolis to Bermuda.  Makes the MC38 look like a luxury ride!

 

Clean, chime in any time here, didn't you sail Newport-BER on a Carkeek 40 (Decision)?  I recall seeing one of your videos with a significant amount of water sloshing around down below.  Who wants to be the designated crew to bail out down below the entire race? 

 

Short coastal races like Ft Lauderdale-Key West would be extreme enough for me on the MC38.



#21 us7070

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:09 PM

There's a mini-Transat 650 registered for Anapolis to Bermuda.  Makes the MC38 look like a luxury ride!

 

Clean, chime in any time here, didn't you sail Newport-BER on a Carkeek 40 (Decision)?  I recall seeing one of your videos with a significant amount of water sloshing around down below.  Who wants to be the designated crew to bail out down below the entire race? 

 

Short coastal races like Ft Lauderdale-Key West would be extreme enough for me on the MC38.

 

 

and 2012 was an easy race - some squalls on the way there, and a short-lived period of high winds near the finish for some boats.., but overall mostly downwind, and no large seas



#22 Icedtea

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:16 PM

There's a mini-Transat 650 registered for Anapolis to Bermuda.  Makes the MC38 look like a luxury ride!

A mini 650 is built with that stuff in mind- plenty of freeboard (for the length) and it'll stay pretty dry below.

 

Something like a MC38 (I assume) really likes having weight on the rail and that often isn't so feasible on long offshores unless conditions are pretty nice- as in people can sleep on the rail



#23 carcrash

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:24 PM

I love high performance boats. One of the most fun seasons was racing Libera Klasse lake boats: a dozen guys, ten of whom were big star sailors, all on racks, on trapeze, a human pyramid to windward standing on shoulders, with my head 20 feet to windward of the hull, chutes that could not be bigger, ...

But the years when ocean racing was a big, competitive sport are long, long ago. There are just a scant handful of ocean races today. What happened?

The boats used to have quite a lot of emphasis on comfort and safety of the crew. So it was a shared adventure, enjoying nature for a sustained time. Cocktails at sunset. Cooked dinners under the stars. Hot coffee and cocoa on night watches. Pancake and egg breakfasts. Shooting the shit with friends around the table during meals.

It was enjoyable, so people kept doing it, and became much better racers.

In a typical ocean race today, the sailors did not grow up sailing cheap one design dinghies every day, with a couple of decades on the helm before becoming regulars on an ocean racing crew. So today I see the vast majority of boats doing truly boneheaded strategic moves as they simply chase targets on dials.

I prefer to feel the boat. I prefer to use no dials. I know, that is a disadvantage during a race, and I do use dials to advantage during a race. But I don't like it. Runners on the track don't use motorcycles. Its sailing, it should not be data analysis.

So the MC38 seems to me to be a buoy racer. Use it like that, seems like a fun toy, as it seems intended.

But ocean racing has died because that sort of boat just eliminates too much of the good stuff. Adds lots of good stuff too! But loses too much that makes ocean racing something people will choose to do more than once in a life time.

#24 jeff carver

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:39 PM

cool boat yes

cat1 not so much - heard horror stories from a Clearwater - KW delivery crew



#25 TimFordi550#87

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:32 PM

I've raced on one. ~30 mile distance race. A blast, very cool boat.  

 

Would I do N2B on one?  Absolutely not. Maybe 30 years ago, back then I wouldn't have had sense enough to decline.



#26 Left Hook

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:33 PM

Last time I brought up that delivery I got flamed to hell for it.

#27 walterbshaffer

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:39 PM

So, lets talk NB, you say you think there is a 10% chance the boat will not make it - what do you think is the weak point - what is going to prevent the finish?  We know the crew will be uncomfortable and having an adventure (that is a positive in my book) . . .but you seem to suggest you think the boat will fail.  Do you think the rig is weak, or the keel or rudder, or the hull, or the whole boat?

 

 

 

And just to ask the question again to be sure - we are sure it will meet all the fundamental (eg boat design issues rather than gear) cat 1 requirements: eg stability, lift keel trunk, cockpit/companionway freeboard/closure, emergency exits, etc?

This is a really interesting boat and looks like a lot of fun but having watched a bunch of the videos of the MC 38 it looks like the weak point in something like the Sydney to Hobart race would be crew getting washed overboard.



#28 NoStrings

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:40 PM

Some friends of mine did the Pac Cup on a Mumm/Farr 36. By all accounts it was a fast, hellishly wet ride. I think the MC 38 would raise that bar.

#29 bshores

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 05:56 PM

I'm sure some have seen this video:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FcX6ugGuvh4

 

Couldn't imagine anything more extreme in the MC38. 



#30 Seriola Dumerili

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:12 PM

nice video, like a washing machine! And no drop of water on the camera lens - what's the secret?



#31 Crouton

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:17 PM

 

if you can do the Hobart in a Mumm 30, you might as well give it a shot in a MC38.  I would go and I'm sure there are 6 or 7 nut cases like me to work the boat!

 

You get the boat and I'll sign up as one of the nutcases.

 

i don't know S-H, not having done it myself. N-B is also cat 1, so i'll use that for purposes of discussion.

 

it's not that you wouldn't make it...,9 times out of 10, you probably would make it - and maybe not even be all that uncomfortable

 

we haven't had a large storm in a N-B race for a while, and I think some sailors figure it's always going to be pretty easy.

 

i'm pretty sure that if you had an MC38, and the forecast was for a mostly upwind race in gale or storm conditions, you'd be sitting around the night before discussing whether or not you should pull the plug.

 

is that really how we want offshore racing to develop? Good sailors afraid to go because of their equipment? good sailors counting on favorable conditions in order to do an ocean race?

 

I think that an element of seamanship is having a boat that's capable of completing the race in pretty much any conditions - certainly in any conditions that they will start the race.

 

obviously there are conditions in which not many boats can complete the trip, but that doesn't invalidate my point.

 

I certainly think that an organizing authority would be ok in refusing entry to a MC 38 - if you want to race to bermuda in a MC38, you could always start your own race.

 

I really would say that if you haven't actually seen one of these boats, .., hold off judgement - the pictures of the boat don't do it justice. 

 

i do think they are amazing boats, and the OD class is a fantastic development for the sport

 

Totally agree with the above, and the other 7070 posts made in this thread

 

The MC38 looks great and I'd love to sail on one.  But I've seen a buddy prep his boats for 3 BDA races, and each effort took up the better part of a year, between boat upgrades, race paperwork, safety prep, crew recruitment/Safety at Sea attendance, etc.

 

So its crazy to invest all that time, money and effort if your platform isn't absolutely rock solid, "We're going no matter what the forecast" (aberrant tropical depression aside).  Part of the boat's job is to take care of the crew, to a reasonable extent.  Just because its "possible" doesn't mean its smart or advisable.  We've all spent some time sleeping out on the rail in these distance races -- with that low freeboard, I'm not sure how you'd ever get to sleep.  None of this might matter in a Block or Vineyard race, the MC 38 looks so fast that it might justify sailing in that pure sprint/no sleep mode.

 

As always, YMMV



#32 Tucky

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:52 PM

Its funny to feel so out of touch with this end of the sport, given that I sail a multihull, which used to be thought of as extreme, but watching that video is astonishing. Crew using the lifelines as a hiking aid in a way that will put a number of them overboard if the one lifeline fails, and no apparent tethers, much less lifejackets, in conditions that will make crew in the water very hard to see, as well as difficult to recover given that boat's ability to sail to weather without a complete complement of crew and weight- it is just amazing to me that this is done. It has nothing to do with cat 1 or cat 5, and everything to do with safety basics.

 

Wow.



#33 Estar

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:20 PM

I was really trying to get a yes or no answer to a specific question . . . 

 

let me make it even more specific:

 

1. Does the design meet this requirement: 3.09.4 A cockpit sole shall be at least 2% LWL above LWL

 

2. Does the design meet the various watertight requirements . . . are any of the holes which lead the lines under the decks or in the cockpit open to the interior? I presume companionway can be sealed. 

 

3. Is the stability index 115 or greater?

 

4. Does it have "A yacht shall have a permanently installed delivery pump and water tank(s):dividing the water supply into at least two

compartments"?  I ask this of the gear questions because it says "permanently installed", which means (I think) it would have to be included in the one design configuration and not as add-on equipment (assuming you also wanted to race it as a one-design).
 
I do not believe there are any minimum free board requirements.
 
Now onto the more subjective discussion - 7070 says he thinks "I certainly think that an organizing authority would be ok in refusing entry to a MC 38".  Lets say it passes all the cat 1 stuff (which I still don't know) - I am still puzzled on what basis do you think the NB OA would/should refuse it entry?


#34 familysailor

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:03 PM

Its funny to feel so out of touch with this end of the sport, given that I sail a multihull, which used to be thought of as extreme, but watching that video is astonishing. Crew using the lifelines as a hiking aid in a way that will put a number of them overboard if the one lifeline fails, and no apparent tethers, much less lifejackets, in conditions that will make crew in the water very hard to see, as well as difficult to recover given that boat's ability to sail to weather without a complete complement of crew and weight- it is just amazing to me that this is done. It has nothing to do with cat 1 or cat 5, and everything to do with safety basics.

 

Wow.

I agree with all your obsevations.

Appears to be a reckless mindset regarding potential MOB issues.

 

Then there is the "hanging your tongue out" response every time the camera is pointed at you.

Is this a recent development? Seems kinda Miley Cyrus/Bieber to me... Maybe it's a virus of some kind.



#35 Ishmael

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:10 PM

Its funny to feel so out of touch with this end of the sport, given that I sail a multihull, which used to be thought of as extreme, but watching that video is astonishing. Crew using the lifelines as a hiking aid in a way that will put a number of them overboard if the one lifeline fails, and no apparent tethers, much less lifejackets, in conditions that will make crew in the water very hard to see, as well as difficult to recover given that boat's ability to sail to weather without a complete complement of crew and weight- it is just amazing to me that this is done. It has nothing to do with cat 1 or cat 5, and everything to do with safety basics.

 

Wow.

I agree with all your obsevations.

Appears to be a reckless mindset regarding potential MOB issues.

 

Then there is the "hanging your tongue out" response every time the camera is pointed at you.

Is this a recent development? Seems kinda Miley Cyrus/Bieber to me... Maybe it's a virus of some kind.

 

We'll know for sure if the crews start twerking.



#36 us7070

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:10 PM

I was really trying to get a yes or no answer to a specific question . . . 

 

let me make it even more specific:

 

1. Does the design meet this requirement: 3.09.4 A cockpit sole shall be at least 2% LWL above LWL

 

2. Does the design meet the various watertight requirements . . . are any of the holes which lead the lines under the decks or in the cockpit open to the interior? I presume companionway can be sealed. 

 

3. Is the stability index 115 or greater?

 

4. Does it have "A yacht shall have a permanently installed delivery pump and water tank(s):dividing the water supply into at least two

compartments"?  I ask this of the gear questions because it says "permanently installed", which means (I think) it would have to be included in the one design configuration and not as add-on equipment (assuming you also wanted to race it as a one-design).
 
I do not believe there are any minimum free board requirements.
 
Now onto the more subjective discussion - 7070 says he thinks "I certainly think that an organizing authority would be ok in refusing entry to a MC 38".  Lets say it passes all the cat 1 stuff (which I still don't know) - I am still puzzled on what basis do you think the NB OA would/should refuse it entry?

 

the requirements are a minimum standard for entry.., the OA is not obligated to invite all yachts that meet them.

 

5.1 The Newport Bermuda Race is an invitational event. The OA reserves the right 

to accept, reject, or invalidate the entry of any yacht, Captain or crew, and limit 
the total number of entries accepted. Entry is conditioned on the yacht’s 
satisfactory and timely measurement, inspection and crew list with time being of 
the essence in all respects. See NoR 12.4 (time penalties). 


#37 Rushman

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:41 PM

I'm sure some have seen this video:
 
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FcX6ugGuvh4
 
Couldn't imagine anything more extreme in the MC38. 


Sailing out of Auckland, westerly breeze blowing off the land, sailing around some islands in "flat" water, hardly the sort of conditions you might find in the SH

#38 Still

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:54 PM

I was really trying to get a yes or no answer to a specific question . . . 

 

let me make it even more specific:

 

1. Does the design meet this requirement: 3.09.4 A cockpit sole shall be at least 2% LWL above LWL

 

2. Does the design meet the various watertight requirements . . . are any of the holes which lead the lines under the decks or in the cockpit open to the interior? I presume companionway can be sealed. 

 

3. Is the stability index 115 or greater?

 

4. Does it have "A yacht shall have a permanently installed delivery pump and water tank(s):dividing the water supply into at least two

compartments"?  I ask this of the gear questions because it says "permanently installed", which means (I think) it would have to be included in the one design configuration and not as add-on equipment (assuming you also wanted to race it as a one-design).
 
I do not believe there are any minimum free board requirements.
 
Now onto the more subjective discussion - 7070 says he thinks "I certainly think that an organizing authority would be ok in refusing entry to a MC 38".  Lets say it passes all the cat 1 stuff (which I still don't know) - I am still puzzled on what basis do you think the NB OA would/should refuse it entry?

Mr. Starzinger --

 

As Clean suggests, the answers to your specific questions are likely answerable only by the designer or builder, and not those of us who have only seen the boat at the dock or on the racecourse.

 

But here is my subjective question for you, all rules jazz aside: do you think this is a wise choice for the Bermuda or Hobart Races?  Or a Fastnet race?

 

Look, you've got more miles than most of the guys here combined.  I've read your stuff to get ready to sail offshore.  So, interested in your perspective.



#39 Trickypig

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:24 PM

There are plenty of boats in events that are extreme; more extreme than an MC38 in a Cat1 race. Volvo 70s in the Southern Ocean at screaming down waves at 35 knots in the middle of nowhere. Transatlantic multi racing where it's de rigueur to have at least one competitor flip. RTW races where keels fall off. They let Cone do 2xTranspacs and one N-B and it makes an MC38 look palatial.

 

Certainly, I think the bar should be raised on safety gear where inflatable PFDs and personal EPIRBs should be worn at all times on boats deemed extreme.



#40 Estar

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:42 PM

 

the requirements are a minimum standard for entry.., the OA is not obligated to invite all yachts that meet them.

 

>>>>>>>>>>> 

5.1 The Newport Bermuda Race is an invitational event. The OA reserves the right 

to accept, reject, or invalidate the entry of any yacht, Captain or crew, and limit 
the total number of entries accepted. Entry is conditioned on the yacht’s 
satisfactory and timely measurement, inspection and crew list with time being of 
the essence in all respects. See NoR 12.4 (time penalties). 

Sure, I am well aware of that.  But let's say you are on the OA, and one of these boats applies (after meeting all the CAt 1 requirements), I am curious what are you going to tell the owner when you tell them why they cannot race?  You are under no legal obligation to explain at all, but I would think you would want a clear and logical explanation for two reasons: (1) because you are setting a precedent that should/may apply to other boats, and (2) it's just polite. So far what I have heard from you is 'we want more comfortable boats than that'.  Do you really think that is a good reason to refuse to allow an owner to race?

 

 

 

But here is my subjective question for you, all rules jazz aside: do you think this is a wise choice for the Bermuda or Hobart Races?  Or a Fastnet race?

 

Look, you've got more miles than most of the guys here combined.  I've read your stuff to get ready to sail offshore.  So, interested in your perspective.

I need to know how well made the boats is and how stable it is and how watertight it is before answering that question.  

But let's assume it is strong, stable and watertight . . . sure if a crew wants to do it, I am all for it.

Really it is only 3 or 4 days to Bermuda/fastnet/hobart. Any of us can be wet and uncomfortable for 3 or 4 days, especially if we are having fun, having an adventure, being challenged.

If I were doing it, a really low profile dodger would not be out of the question to shield the very front of the cockpit. I would look into that.

Safety in a storm - tether down with short tethers, crawl on your hands and knees, make sure you can get hot soup. Half the crew in their pipe births to be sure we have rested hands when needed.

People have endured and succeeded with much less than this - just for example remember Alessandro de Benedetti crossed the pacific in 45 days in an 18' open beach cat.

 

I am getting old and fat, but to be very honest, I get a sense of a lot of soft sailors from this thread.  Sailormen used to be 'the hard men'. . . . not in a macho acting way, but just doing what was needed in a harsh environment.

I am interested in smaller boats these days, because our very long distance blue water days may be over.  I was curious about this one, because the price point is not bad, and I could learn a lot from it, and be challenged, and have fun.  But it has to be strong, stable and watertight before I will consider it.  The cat 1 question was my initial simple screen.



#41 us7070

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:51 PM

There are plenty of boats in events that are extreme; more extreme than an MC38 in a Cat1 race. Volvo 70s in the Southern Ocean at screaming down waves at 35 knots in the middle of nowhere. Transatlantic multi racing where it's de rigueur to have at least one competitor flip. RTW races where keels fall off. They let Cone do 2xTranspacs and one N-B and it makes an MC38 look palatial.

 

Certainly, I think the bar should be raised on safety gear where inflatable PFDs and personal EPIRBs should be worn at all times on boats deemed extreme.

 

the organizing authority for N-B is the _Cruising_ Club of America  (Estar is a member) together with the RBYC

 

although I know some of the committee members well, and have sailed offshore with some of them, I don't presume to speak for them.

 

i have no idea how they would respond to an application from a MC38 - if they approve it, that's fine with me.

 

nevertheless, I don't think they are really interested in organizing an "extreme" race to bermuda....

 

if someone else wants to organize an extreme race to bermuda  - that's fine with me too - i might even go 



#42 Estar

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:15 PM

By the way, I just got a PM from someone who has sailed them . . . says of my three criteria (strong, stable, and watertight) they only meet one.  And they most likely don't meet the cat 1 specs.



#43 Trickypig

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:36 PM

By the way, I just got a PM from someone who has sailed them . . . says of my three criteria (strong, stable, and watertight) they only meet one.  And they most likely don't meet the cat 1 specs.

 

Having raced one also, the questions should be How strong? How stable? How watertight?

 

The MC38 is much stiffer than the one tonners of old. They're built as one design so there must be some longevity intended when considering laminate schedules and rudder stock construction. There's only two hatches and I think I read somewhere that there is a mould for an offshore hatch that can be fitted over the companion way… a half dodger style rigid hatch.

 

If we are to use sensible cruising sailboat design standards, then there are already many boats that shouldn't be offshore. After all it is the conundrum of offshore racing: To win, you need to build a boat light and fast enough. It is a matter how far you push the envelope of fast and light before we decide it's too unsafe.

 

Unsafe already describes plenty of offshore race boats.



#44 Left Hook

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:15 AM

Any MC38 taken on BDA or SH should be named Red October because it'll be a freaking submarine the whole way there.

Edit: and the crew will probably want to defect.

#45 Trickypig

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:19 AM

Any MC38 taken on BDA or SH should be named Red October because it'll be a freaking submarine the whole way there.

 

I'll remember you thought of that when I see the next MC38 called that.



#46 Estar

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:14 AM

By the way, I just got a PM from someone who has sailed them . . . says of my three criteria (strong, stable, and watertight) they only meet one.  And they most likely don't meet the cat 1 specs.

 

Having raced one also, the questions should be How strong? How stable? How watertight?

 

What I was told was: There has apparently been a bunch of broken carbon (mast sheave boxes, pole, cradle)  in relatively mild inshore conditions, and the deck is apparently NOT watertight - the turning blocks for instance are open to the interior (that does meet the offshore OSRs) and the companionway is not at all watertight. And it did not have the required water tanks. Do you agree? I am not picky, but I want a boat where basic parts don't break off in 'normal' conditions and where it can in fact be made watertight. Anyway, thanks for all the comments . . .I have learned what I needed to.



#47 Trickypig

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:32 AM

 

By the way, I just got a PM from someone who has sailed them . . . says of my three criteria (strong, stable, and watertight) they only meet one.  And they most likely don't meet the cat 1 specs.

 

Having raced one also, the questions should be How strong? How stable? How watertight?

 

What I was told was: There has apparently been a bunch of broken carbon (mast sheave boxes, pole, cradle)  in relatively mild inshore conditions, and the deck is apparently NOT watertight - the turning blocks for instance are open to the interior and the companionway is not at all watertight. Do you agree? I am not picky, but I want a boat where basic parts don't break off in 'normal' conditions and where it can in fact be made watertight.

I've raced the boat in Sydney winter westerlies of 30+ and off the breeze there is water everywhere. If you look at the video you'll get the idea. Given the amount of water coming over the decks there is going to be water coming through those few  small apertures in those conditions. There is an electric pump which takes care of it and it doesn't go off that often. I think that if you were racing offshore the semi dodger hatch that I think/hope McConaghys can make would be the ticket for the companionway.

 

We never broke much… certainly not in relatively mild conditions and no more than any other race boat. (breakages being somewhat a part of racing). McConaghys build a quality product. The Farr 40s they built were considered the better quality ones even if the price didn't suit Farr International. 

 

You can go to the forums of any one design and read about breakages. If McConaghys had a spate of rigs over the side, or a spate of rudders breaking then it would be a concern.



#48 us7070

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:40 AM

That Shaw 12m Blink that's been on the FP looks pretty nice...

 

a 40ft canter built to go offshore



#49 Trickypig

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:52 AM

That Shaw 12m Blink that's been on the FP looks pretty nice...

 

a 40ft canter built to go offshore

 

I'd love to see photos and specs on how the canting keel is engineered… i.e. pumps, motor, construction etc. That stuff weighs a bit and it looks like they're making it work in a 40 footer.



#50 gone

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:57 AM

The MC38 is a formula one style race machine which is very different from a rally car race machine.  Each machine has it's purpose and its course in my opinion.

 

I don't know a thing about Cat 1, 2 or 11, nor do I care. 

 

Having sailed on the MC 38 it is an incredible ride.

 

The boat has four bilge pumps (2 port and 2 starboard) which pump water into the front of the cockpit on the forward part of the port and starboard cockpit.  Took a bit of getting used to but you knew right away when they were sucking air so you could shut them off.

 

I believe the bilge pump was delivering a solid stream of water into the cockpit through the whole video.

 

The MC 38 is truly a stunning sailing machine (having sailed on TP 52's, I would choose the MC 38), each owner needs to decide what the correct machine is for the courses they choose to race.



#51 Flatbag

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:45 AM

 


Looking at the spec sheet they have a number of optional extras to make it cat 2 . . . But is there something fundamental which means it can not be cat 1?

 
have you ever seen one?
 
I wouldn't do a cat 1 race in one, no matter what they did to it...
 
i think they are great boats though.

I agree with you. Had a look at one in Sydney recently and not sure I would like to be caught in the Bass Straight on one.

Straight or crooked, no way in Bass Strait on one of those for me either! They brought one down to Melbourne a year or so ago (Ginger?) and by all accounts the thing was a submarine in typical Port Phillip conditions so god knows what it would be like in the real ocean.



#52 Flatbag

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:00 AM

There are plenty of boats in events that are extreme; more extreme than an MC38 in a Cat1 race. Volvo 70s in the Southern Ocean at screaming down waves at 35 knots in the middle of nowhere. Transatlantic multi racing where it's de rigueur to have at least one competitor flip. RTW races where keels fall off. They let Cone do 2xTranspacs and one N-B and it makes an MC38 look palatial.

 

Certainly, I think the bar should be raised on safety gear where inflatable PFDs and personal EPIRBs should be worn at all times on boats deemed extreme.

 

Not so sure about that given that a Mumm 30 has like twice the freeboard of a Mc38.

Not sure where you put the breathing apparatus.

So if I get one you are all good Clean?

 You're a married man now Lyds, with responsibilities and all that goes with your new-found matrimonial state. You in an MC38? Yeah, right... I can't see you giving up the cruising comforts you have come to enjoy since 'retiring' from competitive sailing



#53 Crouton

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:04 AM

I need to know how well made the boats is and how stable it is and how watertight it is before answering that question.  

But let's assume it is strong, stable and watertight . . . sure if a crew wants to do it, I am all for it.

 

Really it is only 3 or 4 days to Bermuda/fastnet/hobart. Any of us can be wet and uncomfortable for 3 or 4 days, especially if we are having fun, having an adventure, being challenged.

 

If I were doing it, a really low profile dodger would not be out of the question to shield the very front of the cockpit. I would look into that.

Safety in a storm - tether down with short tethers, crawl on your hands and knees, make sure you can get hot soup. Half the crew in their pipe births to be sure we have rested hands when needed.

 

I am getting old and fat, but to be very honest, I get a sense of a lot of soft sailors from this thread.  Sailormen used to be 'the hard men'. . . . not in a macho acting way, but just doing what was needed in a harsh environment.

 

I am interested in smaller boats these days, because our very long distance blue water days may be over.  I was curious about this one, because the price point is not bad, and I could learn a lot from it, and be challenged, and have fun.  But it has to be strong, stable and watertight before I will consider it.  The cat 1 question was my initial simple screen.

 

=============================

 

Maybe I'm one of the soft guys in this thread

 

But... my experience and view is that actually, great nav and routing tools aside, its harder now, not softer.  And a lot of that is due to modern raceboat design.  FYI, some of this opinion is based not only on my trips, but on the views expressed in John Rousmaniere's book "A Berth to Bermuda" and especially those laid out by Olin Stephens in his great book "All This, and Sailing Too" (1999).

 

Those hard men sailed down in full keeled designs, narrow forward sections, and beautifully planked up the ying yang by the craftsman at the great yards on the East Coast.  Those boats had and have a super solid feel and a natural way of dealing with waves -- admittedly at a more sedate pace than that offered by the MC 38.  Though, maybe at some wind speeds and angles, angles common in the NB race especially, the difference isn't as much as you'd expect.  Often the crew had a dedicated cook and meals were actually prepared in an oven.  The boats typically had decent light and ventilation below (Dorade vents et al) as well as headroom sufficient to stand.

 

Decent freeboard combined with the usual cabin trunk designs meant that the bulk of these boats were "reasonably" dry inside.

 

I look at that MC 38 and especially the video and know they'd need the best dodger in the world to keep the damn boat afloat, never mind dry.  There's no "sealing" the companionway, guys are constantly ducking up and down to change watch or check with the nav or grab a sail to prep for a change or to grab water or some kind of chow.  You'd like it to be less but it never is.   And to be tucked in a pipe berth in a black, wet windowless carbon fiber phone booth ain't a hell of a lot of fun, sealed companionway or not.  Especially when you can hear water rushing over your head.  

 

Now add in the modern day kicker: pounding upwind for 80 hours, the front of the boat is falling off the waves and slamming its flat fore sections once every eighteen seconds... bam bam bam bam bam bam.  Its the price of speed, I get it. 

 

But its not soft.

 

Hey, the old guys had those nasty wire halyards and sheets.  Heavy sails and lots of them.  Every age has its pluses and minuses.   I could feel the difference just between a 2004 X-37 and a 2009 King 40... the King with its flatter front pounded much more and its hull, while plenty strong, didn't have the bank vault feel of the X Yacht.  One one delivery back from BDA the guys bringing the King back (and she's a standard, high freeboard cruiser-racer) suffered electronics damage from over the deck water, and the whole circumstance made it miserable for them and caused fatigue that impacted the sailing of the boat.

 

I honestly don't know if an MC 38 should be allowed in one of these offshore classics though I'm sure somebody will push to make it happen.  I'm also sure that if I were 24 again I'd be doing anything to have that be my ride.  And I'm equally sure that I wouldn't let my own (not yet 24) kid do the BDA race on that boat.



#54 VALIS

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 06:29 AM

The boat has four bilge pumps (2 port and 2 starboard) which pump water into the front of the cockpit on the forward part of the port and starboard cockpit.

That right there will have to be changed in order to meet Cat 1 requirements.



#55 BAR KARATE

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:15 AM

It is not designed for a Hobart !

For a coastal Race perhaps given the right conditions, what it is designed for is moderate seas ie <1m and it goes fucking fast, it is essentially a day sailer or OD for around the can's racing. Hamilton Island and certainly even Airley Beach is the perfect platform for it's offshore race (Key West etc), I would not like to do a Hobart/Southport or even a Coff's race in it. Class weight is 600kg we race with 7, given a heavy owner/steerer we could go 8 (which we have) but we were still short staffed when needed, which makes it exciting & a RUSH but to do it for +24hrs x 1-3Days good luck to you...........(Invest in snorkle & goggles)

These things do close to wind speed down wind & in <7knts true upwind, max upwind speed maybe 8's



#56 Trickypig

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:17 AM

When racing the Cone in all the Cat 2 races we did on the Aus East Coast, the water was the relatively warm East Coast current of Australia. Coming unstuck in those waters had a margin of error given the water temps, be it MOB, taking to a liferaft or simply coping with the water over the deck.

 

Having raced out of Seattle a little it is a whole new ballgame if some thing goes wrong; the cold water being a deadly element. I think North American sailors live with this as far more of a constant in their offshore races.

 

So perhaps another question is: Which Cat 1 or Cat 2 races?



#57 Estar

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:02 PM








The boat has four bilge pumps (2 port and 2 starboard) which pump water into the front of the cockpit on the forward part of the port and starboard cockpit.

That right there will have to be changed in order to meet Cat 1 requirements.
No, actually that is ok (not ideal but meets the rule), because the cockpit opens aft to the sea . . .

3.23.1 No bilge pump may discharge into a cockpit unless that cockpit opens aft to the sea.

I would be curious what their plan is for 3.21.1 permanent water ranks and pump, as that applies even to cat 2 & 3

The question of whether the deck is "watertight" is perhaps one of interpretation. I personally don't consider a deck with holes (for running lines) thru into the interior to be watertight. You can get a shit load of water down a pretty small hole, and (IMHO) it is unnecessary. The OSRs wording require "essentially watertight", and I suppose the interpretation is what "essentially" means. That is also required for cat 2.

No-one I have talked to yet knows what the stability index is. I am curious if it has been measured.

The breakages I heard about "may" have been (mostly) specific quality problems with the spar mfg. process - it looks like MC is making their own spars.

#58 dolphinmaster

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:10 PM

I'm sure some have seen this video:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FcX6ugGuvh4

 

Couldn't imagine anything more extreme in the MC38. 

The MC38 looks to be perfect for developing farm teams for the Volvo Campaigns.



#59 Bill E Goat

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:32 PM

It s a day sailor, looking at them at the dock yesterday they look like a normal boat that has been run over by a steam roller they are so flat and wide.

 

Go ocean racing in boats that are designed for ocean racing.



#60 rantifarian

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:01 AM

Any reason you were looking at the mc38 in particular estar? One of the little Shaw or Elliot rockets would be a much better bet, and possibly even quicker

#61 Estar

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:25 AM

Any reason you were looking at the mc38 in particular estar? One of the little Shaw or Elliot rockets would be a much better bet, and possibly even quicker

 

Need an LWL>28', SI>=120, watertight and strong.

 

Want a design that can go upwind well, not just downwind.

 

Prefer at least the possibility of a 1-d fleet developing,

 

Prefer possibility to single and/or double hand

 

As modern and fast and small as possible given the above. I want a boat that is different enough that it provides a me a new experience curve to go up -  'teaching/learning experience'.

 

Given the current used market, I am going to take a bath selling my current boat, so I am only going to do it for something special. I have my eye out, and would love to find the next special boat, but I am not desperate to get just anything.



#62 sunseeker

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:34 AM


Any reason you were looking at the mc38 in particular estar? One of the little Shaw or Elliot rockets would be a much better bet, and possibly even quicker

 
Need an LWL>28', SI>=120, watertight and strong.
 
Want a design that can go upwind well, not just downwind.
 
Prefer at least the possibility of a 1-d fleet developing,
 
Prefer possibility to single and/or double hand
 
As modern and fast and small as possible given the above. I want a boat that is different enough that it provides a me a new experience curve to go up -  'teaching/learning experience'.
 
Given the current used market, I am going to take a bath selling my current boat, so I am only going to do it for something special. I have my eye out, and would love to find the next special boat, but I am not desperate to get just anything.

I'm not sure the boat you want exists. I think others want what you want. Do your own specs. Keep getting input/feedback. Design it. They will come. Be the leader.

#63 Rawhide

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:53 AM

 








The boat has four bilge pumps (2 port and 2 starboard) which pump water into the front of the cockpit on the forward part of the port and starboard cockpit.

That right there will have to be changed in order to meet Cat 1 requirements.
No, actually that is ok (not ideal but meets the rule), because the cockpit opens aft to the sea . . .

3.23.1 No bilge pump may discharge into a cockpit unless that cockpit opens aft to the sea.

I would be curious what their plan is for 3.21.1 permanent water ranks and pump, as that applies even to cat 2 & 3

The question of whether the deck is "watertight" is perhaps one of interpretation. I personally don't consider a deck with holes (for running lines) thru into the interior to be watertight. You can get a shit load of water down a pretty small hole, and (IMHO) it is unnecessary. The OSRs wording require "essentially watertight", and I suppose the interpretation is what "essentially" means. That is also required for cat 2.

No-one I have talked to yet knows what the stability index is. I am curious if it has been measured.

The breakages I heard about "may" have been (mostly) specific quality problems with the spar mfg. process - it looks like MC is making their own spars.

the lines are all in tubes so they are water tight. You do get a lot of water below, the stays enter through the deck and cannot be sealed properly. I would do Coffs in one which is Cat 2 in warm water, it would be reckless to consider hobart though, no one has tested one offshore in big seas and at least one has had structural problems so far. I don't know what the stability index is, but I suspect it will be pretty high 1800kg or the jsut over 3000kg weight is in the bulb, so they are very stable.



#64 HILLY

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:56 AM

Any reason you were looking at the mc38 in particular estar? One of the little Shaw or Elliot rockets would be a much better bet, and possibly even quicker

 

Need an LWL>28', SI>=120, watertight and strong.

 

Want a design that can go upwind well, not just downwind.

 

Prefer at least the possibility of a 1-d fleet developing,

 

Prefer possibility to single and/or double hand

 

As modern and fast and small as possible given the above. I want a boat that is different enough that it provides a me a new experience curve to go up -  'teaching/learning experience'.

 

Given the current used market, I am going to take a bath selling my current boat, so I am only going to do it for something special. I have my eye out, and would love to find the next special boat, but I am not desperate to get just anything.

 

Have you considered a JPK1010.

Meets your LWL. But you will need to do some searching re. SI, and cat. 1 suitability.  



#65 Murphness

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:07 AM

Sounds like you want Karma Police.

#66 rantifarian

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:27 AM


Sounds like you want Karma Police.


That was the sort of thing I was thinking of, karma police, crusader etc. 10m canting keel, designed for shorthanded racing around nz, no hope of OD though. Might be even the 9m Elliot and Shaw will make the 28' waterline.

#67 Ishmael

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:19 AM

Maybe you should ask Bob to design you one.



#68 NoStrings

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:04 AM


Any reason you were looking at the mc38 in particular estar? One of the little Shaw or Elliot rockets would be a much better bet, and possibly even quicker

 
Need an LWL>28', SI>=120, watertight and strong.
 
Want a design that can go upwind well, not just downwind.
 
Prefer at least the possibility of a 1-d fleet developing,
 
Prefer possibility to single and/or double hand
 
As modern and fast and small as possible given the above. I want a boat that is different enough that it provides a me a new experience curve to go up -  'teaching/learning experience'.
 
Given the current used market, I am going to take a bath selling my current boat, so I am only going to do it for something special. I have my eye out, and would love to find the next special boat, but I am not desperate to get just anything.
 
Have you considered a JPK1010.
Meets your LWL. But you will need to do some searching re. SI, and cat. 1 suitability.  

+1. Futravu and his crew of Raymond's have been romping in the North Sea on So What. Send him a PM, it's one hell of a boat.

#69 Pelle

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:41 AM


Any reason you were looking at the mc38 in particular estar? One of the little Shaw or Elliot rockets would be a much better bet, and possibly even quicker

 
Need an LWL>28', SI>=120, watertight and strong.
 
Want a design that can go upwind well, not just downwind.
 
Prefer at least the possibility of a 1-d fleet developing,
 
Prefer possibility to single and/or double hand
 
As modern and fast and small as possible given the above. I want a boat that is different enough that it provides a me a new experience curve to go up -  'teaching/learning experience'.
 
Given the current used market, I am going to take a bath selling my current boat, so I am only going to do it for something special. I have my eye out, and would love to find the next special boat, but I am not desperate to get just anything.
 
Have you considered a JPK1010.
Meets your LWL. But you will need to do some searching re. SI, and cat. 1 suitability.  

+1. Futravu and his crew of Raymond's have been romping in the North Sea on So What. Send him a PM, it's one hell of a boat.

I think The Jpk is an excellent boat and I would buy one myself if I had the budget, however it does not meet Estars stability requirement (Si abt 115). A similar boat, IMHO also very nice,that has SI > 120 is the Xp-33. If more performance is desired an option could be a GP-33 but that is not an easy proposition shorthanded.

#70 lydia

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:18 AM

Bob, here is your chance and anyway I was going to contact you anyway about this.

 

10.00m overall

beam and draft whatever

AVS more than 120

two handed (but need 6 for passage races here)

cockpit with some crew protection (we are getting to old to sit on the edge of a 34 footer for 4 days if fresh)

MUST be Hobart capable indeed only reason for the boat in my case

Nothing inside save for cots at b.max

Ideally a 30 hp diesel

Weight must be under 2500kg (otherwise Charlie will not surf fast enough)

plenty of form stability

most likely twin rudders

little hatches so the water does not get in

lifting point

Rating rules are irrelevant but want the boat to still fun to sail in 10 years

 

Likely to be sailed only two long races a year.



#71 lydia

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:28 AM

And if it looks like a round the cans boat I not interested

 

So feel free to pm me



#72 Spoonie

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:31 AM

I'm not sure the boat you want exists. I think others want what you want. Do your own specs. Keep getting input/feedback. Design it. They will come. Be the leader.


Corby? Beneteau first 30? Does a figaro get to 120? Does the mat.1010 get there? Seems to me theres a nieche for a 33' cat 1 box rule?

#73 lydia

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:48 AM

Looked at all the above all too heavy.

The First 30 is almost the weight of 2 Farr 30s.



#74 lydia

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:50 AM

Mat 1010 is approaching Farr 40od weight



#75 lydia

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:54 AM

I have not seen or sailed  a 10-11 metre boat in the ocean that's better than a Mumm 36 with the Welbourne "T" keel  and rig mods.

But we need something from this century



#76 jt9686

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:06 AM

if you can do the Hobart in a Mumm 30, you might as well give it a shot in a MC38.  I would go and I'm sure there are 6 or 7 nut cases like me to work the boat!

 

You get the boat and I'll sign up as one of the nutcases.

 

I'm in.



#77 Estar

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:53 PM

Maybe you should ask Bob to design you one.

 

When I had Hawk designed and built, I had already sailed RTW.  I was able to be a full contributing partner in the whole process.  And looking back on 16 years of use, I can say we hit every one of our targets dead on.  It's one of the relatively few custom projects I know that can say that.  And in very great part I attribute that to my having enough knowledge.

 

As I already told Bob, with this smaller boat concept I don't have that same level of knowledge.  I don't feel I can be a full partner in the process.  And that leads me to suspect it will not be as successful as a custom.  Just for instance I know nothing about canting keels or water ballast, not even whether they should be on the boat or not, and if so how to make them reliable. It would be interesting to have a short list of designers and builders who could honestly say they know, and have proven to know, if and how best to handle small boat movable ballast systems (that is of course just one specific feature among a whole list that have to be right).  Ideally I would buy hull #10, after 1-9 have been thrashed for 3 years.

 

I have been the owner's rep on a couple projects, and you quickly realize that everyone involved have agendas and objectives that are slightly (or sometimes not so slightly) different from the owner's.  If you have the right team, they are all trying to do the best/right thing, but they all see the world differently than the owner does.  You just simply can tell them to do what they think is right and expect to get YOUR vision - in the best case you get what they think your vision should have been (in the worst case you get a big bill and crap work) - it's very worth listening because sometimes that is an improvement but often it is not, often it is just someone else's objective/agenda.

 

Anyway . . .that's my current feeling on custom/semi-custom/very short run boats . . . . but I originally had a similar thought about RTW boats (that going custom was stupid) but after 2 years of looking for what I thought were very simple obvious requirements and not finding them I decided to do the stupid thing . . .and it worked out well (except perhaps for the resale value :(  ). 



#78 us7070

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:22 PM

Estar - what about the shaw 12 i mentioned above?

 

it doesn't interest you?

 

probably no OD, but otherwise seems really nice.

 

class 40?



#79 us7070

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:51 PM

Bob, here is your chance and anyway I was going to contact you anyway about this.

 

10.00m overall

beam and draft whatever

AVS more than 120

two handed (but need 6 for passage races here)

cockpit with some crew protection (we are getting to old to sit on the edge of a 34 footer for 4 days if fresh)

MUST be Hobart capable indeed only reason for the boat in my case

Nothing inside save for cots at b.max

Ideally a 30 hp diesel

Weight must be under 2500kg (otherwise Charlie will not surf fast enough)

plenty of form stability

most likely twin rudders

little hatches so the water does not get in

lifting point

Rating rules are irrelevant but want the boat to still fun to sail in 10 years

 

Likely to be sailed only two long races a year.

 

Pogo 30 is not far off

 

older model Pogo 10.50 has AVS of 124deg

 

displacement of the 30 is given as 2800kg, but you could probably save 300kg with a high-tech build, a non-swing keel, and removing furniture

 

twin rudders

 

plenty of form stability

 

no problem sailing with 2



#80 sclero

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:41 PM



Any reason you were looking at the mc38 in particular estar? One of the little Shaw or Elliot rockets would be a much better bet, and possibly even quicker

 
Need an LWL>28', SI>=120, watertight and strong.
 
Want a design that can go upwind well, not just downwind.
 
Prefer at least the possibility of a 1-d fleet developing,
 
Prefer possibility to single and/or double hand
 
As modern and fast and small as possible given the above. I want a boat that is different enough that it provides a me a new experience curve to go up -  'teaching/learning experience'.
 
Given the current used market, I am going to take a bath selling my current boat, so I am only going to do it for something special. I have my eye out, and would love to find the next special boat, but I am not desperate to get just anything.
 
Have you considered a JPK1010.
Meets your LWL. But you will need to do some searching re. SI, and cat. 1 suitability.  
+1. Futravu and his crew of Raymond's have been romping in the North Sea on So What. Send him a PM, it's one hell of a boat.

Or a class 40

#81 Estar

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:41 PM

Estar - what about the shaw 12 i mentioned above?

 

it doesn't interest you?

 

probably no OD, but otherwise seems really nice.

 

class 40?

There are both bigger than I was thinking of.  The Shaw 9 is about the size I was thinking of. . . . 

 

The Shaw - any idea how many have been built - the website suggests two? The canting keel . . .do you have any idea how many miles it has on it, how reliable it has been? . . . it's interesting but something that needs to be bulletproof.

 

This is perhaps the closest of the boats that have been mentioned, but it does not really grab me.  The semi-one off nature is something I was hoping to avoid.  . . .and the write up say "easily manageable with a crew of four or five" and nothing about single/double handing . . . . And its going to be somewhat unique and not fit well in any class breaks. It's on my radar . . . it would probably be pretty high if there was a growing class with happy satisfied excited owners.

 

I have never sailed a class 40, but think of them as reaching machines rather than upwind - is that wrong? I want a true all-a-rounder. In any case, they are bigger than the first boat I went RTW. It just more boat (and more sail cost) than I am thinking of. You need to be a successful investment banker to be able to afford to race one :)



#82 us7070

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:05 PM

Estar - what about the shaw 12 i mentioned above?

 

it doesn't interest you?

 

probably no OD, but otherwise seems really nice.

 

class 40?

There are both bigger than I was thinking of.  The Shaw 9 is about the size I was thinking of. . . . 

 

The Shaw - any idea how many have been built - the website suggests two? The canting keel . . .do you have any idea how many miles it has on it, how reliable it has been? . . . it's interesting but something that needs to be bulletproof.

 

This is perhaps the closest of the boats that have been mentioned, but it does not really grab me.  The semi-one off nature is something I was hoping to avoid.  . . .and the write up say "easily manageable with a crew of four or five" and nothing about single/double handing . . . . And its going to be somewhat unique and not fit well in any class breaks. It's on my radar . . . it would probably be pretty high if there was a growing class with happy satisfied excited owners.

 

I have never sailed a class 40, but think of them as reaching machines rather than upwind - is that wrong? I want a true all-a-rounder. In any case, they are bigger than the first boat I went RTW. It just more boat (and more sail cost) than I am thinking of. You need to be a successful investment banker to be able to afford to race one :)

 

 

well, i certainly think that the Shaw 12 will sail better shorthanded than the MC38 - I don't think you could ever contemplate racing that with anything less than a full crew on the rail.

 

but, if you want performance approaching that of a MC38, with less than full crew, i think you are essentially forced into a canting keel - i don't even think water ballast would get you there.

 

i've never sailed a class 40, but I don't think anyone considers them upwind machines...

 

but the question is: what races do you want to do?

 

very few offshore races are upwind.., even NB is not usually inside the tacking angles for much of the race - if you look at a pilot chart for the second half of june, the average TWA is probably ~80deg.., although I have seen it be upwind nearly the whole way.

 

the main issue with class 40 and similar boats is that they have _terrible_ ratings under any of the common rules used offshore  - so unless it's a class 40 event, you better hope they get their own start.



#83 Murphness

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:44 PM

Estar - what about the shaw 12 i mentioned above?

 

it doesn't interest you?

 

probably no OD, but otherwise seems really nice.

 

class 40?

There are both bigger than I was thinking of.  The Shaw 9 is about the size I was thinking of. . . . 

 

The Shaw - any idea how many have been built - the website suggests two? The canting keel . . .do you have any idea how many miles it has on it, how reliable it has been? . . . it's interesting but something that needs to be bulletproof.

 

This is perhaps the closest of the boats that have been mentioned, but it does not really grab me.  The semi-one off nature is something I was hoping to avoid.  . . .and the write up say "easily manageable with a crew of four or five" and nothing about single/double handing . . . . And its going to be somewhat unique and not fit well in any class breaks. It's on my radar . . . it would probably be pretty high if there was a growing class with happy satisfied excited owners.

 

I have never sailed a class 40, but think of them as reaching machines rather than upwind - is that wrong? I want a true all-a-rounder. In any case, they are bigger than the first boat I went RTW. It just more boat (and more sail cost) than I am thinking of. You need to be a successful investment banker to be able to afford to race one :)

http://www.biekerboa...de_35_MKII.html

 

Riptide 35? 



#84 stinky

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:55 PM

Have you looked at any of Biekers boats? There's been a handful of Riptide 35s built; very cool water ballasted ocean racers.
http://www.biekerboa...de_35_MKII.html

Also, Karma Police did lots of very successful short handed sailing.

Edit: yeah, what he said.

#85 Left Hook

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:42 PM

What about the Sunfast 3200 or 3600? I didn't look to see how they fit your stability requirements but they seem pretty decent all around and able to shorthand or go offshore. Too much boat?



#86 Presuming Ed

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:57 PM

3400 and 4700 kg.

#87 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:00 PM

lolz

sunslow

#88 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:12 PM

http://www.elliott-m...age=latest news the elliott 35ss are winning short handed

there is also the 'Overlord' E-9SS 30 footer which beat the Karma in the Coastal on launching

http://www.elliott-m...SS_Overload.pdf

#89 rantifarian

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:36 PM

Evans, Rob Shaw wrote his masters thesis on designing the Shaw 9, so there might be some more information available for you in that. http://unitec.resear...ndle/10652/1825

Blink (Shaw 12) and Bushido (Elliot 35SS) have both just finished the Round North Island race, 1st and second, and I believe Karma police (shaw 9) has done the race in the past. 

 

I believe that the Shaw 9 and possibly Shaw 10 use rope purchase to cant the keel, getting rid of the hydraulics entirely. Elliot 35SS is Hydraulic Canter, and definitely meets cat 1 out of the box.



#90 Trickypig

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:00 PM

Evans, Rob Shaw wrote his masters thesis on designing the Shaw 9, so there might be some more information available for you in that. http://unitec.resear...ndle/10652/1825

Blink (Shaw 12) and Bushido (Elliot 35SS) have both just finished the Round North Island race, 1st and second, and I believe Karma police (shaw 9) has done the race in the past. 

 

I believe that the Shaw 9 and possibly Shaw 10 use rope purchase to cant the keel, getting rid of the hydraulics entirely. Elliot 35SS is Hydraulic Canter, and definitely meets cat 1 out of the box.

 

Short course racing on the harbour would make these boats a real workout I'd imagine.



#91 Don

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:04 PM

I think it was in the 1960's that some guys in Sydney decided to compete in a Diamond nationals held in Melbourne, so they sailed their Diamond from Sydney to Melbourne, won the Nationals and sailed it back to Sydney.

 

I own the only Reichel Pugh Shockwave 36 ever built, completely carbon/nomex (no e-glass etc) 11 m long 3.3 m wide 2.9 m deep weighing 2488kg in Cat 6 trim.

In Port Philip in 25 to 30 knots wind we've covered 7.2 nautical miles downwind in 21 minutes with green water in the cotpit when punching through the 2 to 2.5 m waves.

 

Never would I take this boat offshore, not because it could not be done, but because the potential for something going horribly wrong is too high. Hell of an exciting ride, right up until you inflate your lifejacket and pray someone finds you.



#92 rantifarian

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:07 PM

Evans, Rob Shaw wrote his masters thesis on designing the Shaw 9, so there might be some more information available for you in that. http://unitec.resear...ndle/10652/1825

Blink (Shaw 12) and Bushido (Elliot 35SS) have both just finished the Round North Island race, 1st and second, and I believe Karma police (shaw 9) has done the race in the past. 

 

I believe that the Shaw 9 and possibly Shaw 10 use rope purchase to cant the keel, getting rid of the hydraulics entirely. Elliot 35SS is Hydraulic Canter, and definitely meets cat 1 out of the box.

 

Short course racing on the harbour would make these boats a real workout I'd imagine.

Apparently it is easier than you would expect, but I wouldn't want to be the one on the winch



#93 Trickypig

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:13 AM

 

Evans, Rob Shaw wrote his masters thesis on designing the Shaw 9, so there might be some more information available for you in that. http://unitec.resear...ndle/10652/1825

Blink (Shaw 12) and Bushido (Elliot 35SS) have both just finished the Round North Island race, 1st and second, and I believe Karma police (shaw 9) has done the race in the past. 

 

I believe that the Shaw 9 and possibly Shaw 10 use rope purchase to cant the keel, getting rid of the hydraulics entirely. Elliot 35SS is Hydraulic Canter, and definitely meets cat 1 out of the box.

 

Short course racing on the harbour would make these boats a real workout I'd imagine.

Apparently it is easier than you would expect, but I wouldn't want to be the one on the winch

Well I just think about the extra work at mark roundings and tacks/gybes that includes winding the keel over and raising and lowing a canard (or canards). 

 

Not hard on passage races but short tacking up the harbour in a beer can race… just wondering.



#94 Christian

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:17 AM

You could also look at a more conventional but super boat - the J90 - the second best j boat ever made (the J125 is the best IMHO).  pretty fast relatively stiff, good doublehand boat and no slouch.



#95 Rushman

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:19 AM

http://www.elliott-m...age=latest news the elliott 35ss are winning short handedthere is also the 'Overlord' E-9SS 30 footer which beat the Karma in the Coastal on launchinghttp://www.elliott-m...SS_Overload.pdf


I am not sure where Overlord sails from but Overload sails out of Auckland.

I can't remember seeing them much around the cans but they did do the longer round the island racers. Big gennakers, slow to tack though.

#96 Joli

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:31 AM

Probably a silly question but what are you looking to do?



#97 Rawhide

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:32 AM

I think it was in the 1960's that some guys in Sydney decided to compete in a Diamond nationals held in Melbourne, so they sailed their Diamond from Sydney to Melbourne, won the Nationals and sailed it back to Sydney.

 

I own the only Reichel Pugh Shockwave 36 ever built, completely carbon/nomex (no e-glass etc) 11 m long 3.3 m wide 2.9 m deep weighing 2488kg in Cat 6 trim.

In Port Philip in 25 to 30 knots wind we've covered 7.2 nautical miles downwind in 21 minutes with green water in the cotpit when punching through the 2 to 2.5 m waves.

 

Never would I take this boat offshore, not because it could not be done, but because the potential for something going horribly wrong is too high. Hell of an exciting ride, right up until you inflate your lifejacket and pray someone finds you.

Was your boat not designed to go to Osaka?



#98 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:38 AM

There's a mini-Transat 650 registered for Anapolis to Bermuda.  Makes the MC38 look like a luxury ride!

 

Clean, chime in any time here, didn't you sail Newport-BER on a Carkeek 40 (Decision)?  I recall seeing one of your videos with a significant amount of water sloshing around down below.  Who wants to be the designated crew to bail out down below the entire race? 

 

Short coastal races like Ft Lauderdale-Key West would be extreme enough for me on the MC38.

I sailed the Carkeek 40 the full Bermuda course in winds to >40 and plenty big seas.  Boat was a bathtub inside and a firehose outside.  I'd do it again but I would make sure someone spent the time to do the partners properly and design a decent hatch for the boat.  Without the water intrusion, the boat was a fucking blast.   Sure it was no ride for a 75 year old used to an IOR battle cruiser, but for guys like me and shriner and Ty, and the young owner Stephen and any other of dozens of high-quality adrenaline junkies?  Hell yes.  Besides, those Carkeeks shouldn't leek like the sieves they are either, and a MC38 should be able to be waterproofed too.  Create some shelter for the companionway, create a triple seal for anything at the bow that allows ingress, and everyone QUIT CUTTING HOLES IN THE DECK FOR LINES TO GO THROUGH.  Just put fairings/tunnels in the deck for those lines rather than running it all into the boat. It's stupid and unseamanlike, and 'ultra high performance' is no excuse.



#99 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:40 AM

 

There's a mini-Transat 650 registered for Anapolis to Bermuda.  Makes the MC38 look like a luxury ride!

 

Clean, chime in any time here, didn't you sail Newport-BER on a Carkeek 40 (Decision)?  I recall seeing one of your videos with a significant amount of water sloshing around down below.  Who wants to be the designated crew to bail out down below the entire race? 

 

Short coastal races like Ft Lauderdale-Key West would be extreme enough for me on the MC38.

 

 

and 2012 was an easy race - some squalls on the way there, and a short-lived period of high winds near the finish for some boats.., but overall mostly downwind, and no large seas

You must have been way behind us.  Several line squalls well over 40 knots, seas over 4m at some points, a couple of big wipeouts, average speed of 'holy crap no 40 footer should be this fast'.  



#100 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:51 AM

Any reason you were looking at the mc38 in particular estar? One of the little Shaw or Elliot rockets would be a much better bet, and possibly even quicker

 

Need an LWL>28', SI>=120, watertight and strong.

 

Want a design that can go upwind well, not just downwind.

 

Prefer at least the possibility of a 1-d fleet developing,

 

Prefer possibility to single and/or double hand

 

As modern and fast and small as possible given the above. I want a boat that is different enough that it provides a me a new experience curve to go up -  'teaching/learning experience'.

 

Given the current used market, I am going to take a bath selling my current boat, so I am only going to do it for something special. I have my eye out, and would love to find the next special boat, but I am not desperate to get just anything.

 

Well if you ever need someone to help get her ready and pull on strings, you got my number.  One thing is for sure: There is nothing else in the market for anywhere near this price with this level of performance.  Add in some cash to get her up to the level you'd want (especially w/regard to through-deck holds and such), and she'll still be a fraction of the cost of a Carkeek or similar.  Then again, I hear Spookie can be had for a pretty reasonable number, if close on 650-700k is reasonable to ya!






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