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#1 Editor

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:17 PM

So we had coffee with a SoCal boat builder the other day, ostensibly to talk about ways to get people excited about the sport on the heels of our Flowers by the Door article, and what kind of boat would do that. Of course we talked sportie (32-33'?) and of course we talked price point ($75,000?) and some of the elements that would be part of that  (minimal carbon, retractable sprit, outboard in well instead of inboard, outboard rudder, a decent, minimal interior, aesthetics, etc.).

 

But the conversation was quickly realized as one of convention. Sure, a sexy and fast modern sportboat could be done at an attractive price point and while that might take off, it really would be little more than a rejigged M32 and the like. What would be areas of development that could make the boat more revolutionary than evolutionary, give the boat breakthrough speed, and generate excitement in perhaps a new segment of the market?

 

A canting keel was the element that jumped out as us as being the most interesting and performance enhancing. Given the success of designers like Rob Shaw in this area it seemed to be one worth exploring. Cost, complexity, reliability and usability being of the most importance.

 

And what about rig/sails/sail plan? Are there areas for forward thinking that are speed and cost effective?

 

Starting from zero, we were intrigued about what possibilities there might be. So the questions to you anarchists are along the lines of is the concept viable, what would you do or not do and would this concept be  marketable and doable?

 

Thoughts?



#2 nroose

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:28 PM

Get Bob Perry to design 2-3 racer/cruisers at 2-3 lengths/price points.  Give him lots of freedom in design.



#3 marksmith1975

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:30 PM

From the aspect of making the sport more accessible, I would think one of the biggest challenges is storage.  With that in mind, it would be incredible to design a small day sailing sportboat that can be stored in a standard parking space in a garage.  That's a little tough because I think you are typically talking 20' or less long.  I feel like once you get into a keelboat, this is no longer an option.



#4 schoonerman

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:32 PM

$75K is a VERY tough price point at 10 meters. Between Labor, Design, Royalty, BOM, and enough money to make a living pretty sure this number won't add up.

#5 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:42 PM

Just buy into the Viper Class.

  • Fast Fun Day Racing. Then for Offshore stuff go on someone else's big boat, there are plenty around..
  • 3 person planning boat,
  • Ramp or Hoist Launch so access to water is easy and you do not need the expensive club membership.
  • Not too expensive.
  • Young people will love it.
  • I believe there is a fleet in MDR and more down the So Cal coast and across the USA.

 

Why reinvent the wheel?

 

I wish I had my legs, the boat looks fun.

 

 

PS: See the sponsor of this forum!!!!



#6 vermontmitch

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:50 PM

If you want a capital "R" Revolution, make a larger version of the Brown/Bieker proa.



#7 Scrotal Canoe

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:55 PM

Editor trying to knock up his own FT 10 ovum.

#8 carcrash

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:58 PM

I think the focus on performance, instead of fun, has killed sailing. So a sport boat is just more poison.

We need a major reset to get back to the days when the sport was growing, instead of continuing with this implosion.

Maybe it will never grow again? Maybe sailing is such an expensove anachronism that no new blood will ever be attracted?

I don'tt hink it is hopeless, but if we keep doing what we have been doing, it is insane to expect a different outcome.

I am nearing completion on the design of my own boat, still expecting it to launch this summer. It aint anything like what is on the market. You will see it here first. Well, I did post some renderings on Facebook.

#9 Paul_NI

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:00 PM

Backman 21 canting keel... not sure if these guys are still making boats though, but a bigger version would be great.. http://www.boatdesig...666/ppuser/2345

 

or a variation of the Seascape 27: http://www.thinkseas...en/seascape-27/

 

I am sure you guys can think of many others :)



#10 B.Wilkinson

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:03 PM

April fools day isint for another month...

#11 206

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:08 PM

Canting keel with Flying Tiger budget build quality sounds like a match made in heaven.



#12 Ajax

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:18 PM

I think that increasing the complexity and thereby cost, is not going to help things.



#13 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:42 PM

Everybody keeps talking about cost, but cost seems to irrelevant to class growth.  J70 is selling like hot cakes and it costs, all up, almost as much as your $75,000 target.  The J88 is $165,000 and they're selling - WTF?  Even the J111 at half a million ready to go is selling and brokers are posting on SA trying to find used boats for buyers with cash.  Then there is the affordable FT10 and class growth has come to a grinding halt.  The market has shown that low entry cost does not matter - or low cost does not matter.  I almost wonder if the guy that has cash to buy a J88 didn't buy an FT10 because that rabble is not the sort a potential J88 owner would want to associate.  I can only conclude that the people whinging about cost are not the people who buy boats.  At least the people that people that can afford the entry costs of a J70, J88, and J111 can afford the running costs as well as pay for the food, bar tab, and lodging for the crew.



#14 Murphness

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:44 PM

All that sounds great. Raced with 5 or 6 but make it single or double handable for day sailing or even racing, and something a wife/s.o. wouldn't hate to be on. Being able to use it casually for a weekend cruise is high on my list, as well as taking family and non-sailing friends... If we can safely go fast with minimal crack crew, that'd be a bonus...

 

The SSC 27 definitely stands out... So does the pogo 30. Do what they're doing, just make it in the states so we don't have to pay shipping and VAT...

 

Water ballast might be cheaper and easier than a canting keel as Ryley stated.  

 

Love the idea! Keep it rolling...



#15 Jaja

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:46 PM

Scow bow !



#16 r.finn

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:50 PM

Screw the canting keel.  I would never trust a cheap canting keel boat.

 

 A Melges 32 with more cabin would be cool. The Pogo 30, Seascape 27 type boats are cool, but for the US market, I think it has to be an all around performer.  This is a J/boat phrf based country.



#17 r.finn

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:51 PM

Scow bow !

 

 

A fixed keel offshore scow in that size range would be real anarchy.  Lets see a drawing.



#18 Just a Skosh

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:53 PM

Canting keel with Flying Tiger budget build quality sounds like a match made in heaven.

 

Pretty sure most canting keel boats don't work too well on round the buoys racing. 



#19 chris.luomanen

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:08 PM

Yup, Brown/Bieker proa.  Why cant the keel when you can have it floating to windward.

 

Might not kill around the buoys, but a force to recon with on longer legs--especially if they're upwind.



#20 Editor

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:12 PM

Editor trying to knock up his own FT 10 ovum.

 

actually more like titty fuck it. stay off my beach.



#21 Jaja

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:14 PM

Yeah a scow bow could make a killer. No complicated canting stuff taht cost and break, a boat is just enough things to worry about.

More room inside, good at buoy racing killer at reaching. Really that aesthetic problem with scow bow make me laugh. No long ago boat need a pointy rear end to look fast, it's just a matter of time big front end are popular.



#22 B30

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:15 PM

For $75K? A 3 person foiled plus sized beach cat. Think bigger Flying Phantom. Or just 2 Phantoms! It is revolutionary, has breakthrough speed, and is exciting as hell. Smaller faster and cheaper than any monohull in existence. Even faster and cheaper than a Marstrom 32.



#23 Schnick

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:15 PM

I'm in the Pogo 30 / Seascape 27 camp.  People ought to be able to sleep on their boat at a regatta, take it to a buoy racing event one weekend, and do a 100 miler the next weekend, just like the half tonners did back when sailing was popular.  You make friends on the dock when you stay there all weekend, and those friendship last years and keep people in the sport.

 

Cheap didn't really work for the FT10, and they failed to hold the line on the $75k boat even after they had probably paid for the tooling.

 

Cheap and canting didn't work for the Schock 40, and they had a reputation of sorts to bank on.  Although I do think the front rudder thing hindered them.



#24 CraptainJack

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:22 PM

+ 1 for the Viper. Cheap enough for all parties involved and the fleets from LB, MDR, and SF already come down to do NOODs. Why not a few more each year?

 

Just buy into the Viper Class.

  • Fast Fun Day Racing. Then for Offshore stuff go on someone else's big boat, there are plenty around..
  • 3 person planning boat,
  • Ramp or Hoist Launch so access to water is easy and you do not need the expensive club membership.
  • Not too expensive.
  • Young people will love it.
  • I believe there is a fleet in MDR and more down the So Cal coast and across the USA.

 

Why reinvent the wheel?

 

I wish I had my legs, the boat looks fun.

 

 

PS: See the sponsor of this forum!!!!



#25 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:32 PM

+ 1 for the Viper. Cheap enough for all parties involved and the fleets from LB, MDR, and SF already come down to do NOODs. Why not a few more each year?

 

Just buy into the Viper Class.

  • Fast Fun Day Racing. Then for Offshore stuff go on someone else's big boat, there are plenty around..
  • 3 person planning boat,
  • Ramp or Hoist Launch so access to water is easy and you do not need the expensive club membership.
  • Not too expensive.
  • Young people will love it.
  • I believe there is a fleet in MDR and more down the So Cal coast and across the USA.

 

Why reinvent the wheel?

 

I wish I had my legs, the boat looks fun.

 

 

PS: See the sponsor of this forum!!!!

"+1 for the viper"?  Are you buying a Viper for sailing in SD?  The Viper fleet in San Diego is going in reverse - went 4 or 5 boats to only 1 boat that is not sold or for sale.



#26 sailor614

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:43 PM

Whats the verdict on DSS? if the boat is designed lighter with less displacement wouldn't it be better in light SD air regardless of it uses the DSS, and when it blows it should skip along like a sailboard with the help of the foil, No? I'm thinking the effort to slide foil across a sport boat is much less than swinging a chunk of lead. make the keel retractable so it can be trialered, relieving the need for wet mooring, a-la J70. 



#27 Overserved

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:00 PM

Backman 21 canting keel... not sure if these guys are still making boats though, but a bigger version would be great.. http://www.boatdesig...666/ppuser/2345

 

or a variation of the Seascape 27: http://www.thinkseas...en/seascape-27/

 

I am sure you guys can think of many others :)

I have a 27 that just arrived in New Orleans. Come down and go for a sail then enjoy Jazz Fest in late April!



#28 CraptainJack

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:08 PM

I know it died because I was one of the crews who lost a ride. I'm saying its a good boat to build on. Get the right people sailing one or run an event with the help of the LB/SF guys and we may see a build. I understand the problems with getting them in the North Bay and the big publicity there, I just think the right push could make it viable again.

 

 

+ 1 for the Viper. Cheap enough for all parties involved and the fleets from LB, MDR, and SF already come down to do NOODs. Why not a few more each year?

 

Just buy into the Viper Class.

  • Fast Fun Day Racing. Then for Offshore stuff go on someone else's big boat, there are plenty around..
  • 3 person planning boat,
  • Ramp or Hoist Launch so access to water is easy and you do not need the expensive club membership.
  • Not too expensive.
  • Young people will love it.
  • I believe there is a fleet in MDR and more down the So Cal coast and across the USA.

 

Why reinvent the wheel?

 

I wish I had my legs, the boat looks fun.

 

 

PS: See the sponsor of this forum!!!!

"+1 for the viper"?  Are you buying a Viper for sailing in SD?  The Viper fleet in San Diego is going in reverse - went 4 or 5 boats to only 1 boat that is not sold or for sale.



#29 andrepeixoto

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:09 PM

The answer is on SA home page ads. A GP26 with a lifting keel, fast, simple and around $80 with sails.



#30 movable ballast

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:22 PM

A 33ft sporty is not going to revive sailing. If that were the case the FT10 (great boat BTW) would have been made in larger numbers and more fleets. That's not the problem.

 

The problem is how do I get my mostly under 30 crew to commit to buying ANYTHING to get more boats on the water?

 

How does one get the guy with the Catalina 25 with shitty sails to spend 20 grand in sails for a 5 grand boat...

 

How do we change the perception of sail boat racing... It isn't the boat, it the people... Rich assholes playing with there toys is the current perception most have of our sport.



#31 Just a Skosh

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:28 PM

A 33ft sporty is not going to revive sailing. If that were the case the FT10 (great boat BTW) would have been made in larger numbers and more fleets. That's not the problem.

 

The problem is how do I get my mostly under 30 crew to commit to buying ANYTHING to get more boats on the water?

 

How does one get the guy with the Catalina 25 with shitty sails to spend 20 grand in sails for a 5 grand boat...

 

How do we change the perception of sail boat racing... It isn't the boat, it the people... Rich assholes playing with there toys is the current perception most have of our sport.

 

There's a bunch of under 30s sailing Cal 25s in Detroit.  They're not great boats, but you can get one cheap, they're fun to booze cruise in, and there's a big one design fleet in the area. 

 

You can get one in great shape for $4K, and be competitive right away if you've got the right crew.  If I was still in Detroit I know I'd get one.  Sure I'd love the latest and greatest sport boat that goes 20 knots but there's no way in hell I can afford it. 



#32 davidprobable

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:31 PM

This focus on the boat seems like IOR all over again.   Focus on design,  stuff and money.    Don't focus on people.    That is why competitive sailing at the Club level is dying.   The youth are stuck in dinghies and sport boats which are just bigger dinghies,   but  long distance dual use boats are mostly ignored by the media.    The old guys still have them and talk about them and refurbish them  but  they don't race them.    Any talk to LYRA or LORC about a Nostalgia Class  is ignored.    Hell  people  don't even know what a blooper is.    You can talk up 26 ft et seq  sport boats for ever   but they will not bring back interest in sailing  nor  increase the number of ordinary people  getting into the game.    The only thing that does that is crewing on long distance races  with  a  useable interior  which instills a future in the minds of people that will utltimately produce children and a family attitude.    Bouncing around the buoys in small boats is fun but you grow out of it as you grow up.   Just like most people grow out of bicycles and into 4 wheel conveyances that can also race.    Check out this month's Road and Track.   4 door sedans faster than a Ferrari Enzo.     The money is not with the youth.    Why do you think Swan still survives?



#33 Murphness

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:32 PM

Sorry, but unless you've got a trust fund, people under 30 aren't buying anything more than a 6 pack for beer can racing...

 

Life is pretty freaking expensive in general when you live in a city and make under 200K. New boats should be marketed to the 35+ crowd and even then people are starting families and buying their first houses.

 

Find a bank to work with that will give low interest loans with a few grand down to people with excellent credit, then build the boat... Maybe someone who's got a shitload of dough already and wants to advance the sport and finance the next generation?

 

It's 8-10K running costs in this area if you have a slip, guessing it's similar elsewhere...Boats are freaking expensive. 

 

I make it work with a partner, a mooring and an affordable yachtclub with storage. If those things weren't available, there's no way I'd own a boat...



#34 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:38 PM

Another tread about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.



#35 Murphness

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:43 PM

Ha, good point. Nor sure how it devolved already...

Just get us some pogo 30's for 70. I could justify that purchase to the wife I think.

#36 6924

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:58 PM

The Ft10 was/is a great boat with some advanced features and rated at 48 fast.  So what would a boat designed 10 years later look like with a similar advanced deign brief ? 



#37 Scrotal Canoe

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:13 PM

Sorry I stole your wave Ed. Pulling a knife is a little uncalled for though.

#38 biogrove

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:35 PM

Similar discussion in this thread - 

 

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=133409

 

-Get Bieker to design a twin rudder, swing keel Shilshole 27-33; 

 

-Seascape 27 - seems to tick most of the boxes

 

-Pogo 30

 

-Left Coast Dart

 

- GP26

 

I don't know who you'd get to build it for the OP's price point though. 

 

​The FT10 is a blast to race around the cans and a phenomenal Daysailor, but not a boat you want to camp with a family on or do much distance racing in any kind of comfort.  



#39 P_Wop

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:01 PM

I'd suggest a DSS boat over the canting-keel idea any day.  Lighter, cheaper, more reliable.  Somewhere between the Quant 30 and Infinity 36, say about 32 but with a basic sitting/sleeping/eating interior for 4.

 

Hugh - how about it?  You lurking?



#40 Beeracuda

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:23 PM

Everybody keeps talking about cost, but cost seems to irrelevant to class growth.  J70 is selling like hot cakes and it costs, all up, almost as much as your $75,000 target.  The J88 is $165,000 and they're selling - WTF?  Even the J111 at half a million ready to go is selling and brokers are posting on SA trying to find used boats for buyers with cash.  Then there is the affordable FT10 and class growth has come to a grinding halt.  The market has shown that low entry cost does not matter - or low cost does not matter.  I almost wonder if the guy that has cash to buy a J88 didn't buy an FT10 because that rabble is not the sort a potential J88 owner would want to associate.  I can only conclude that the people whinging about cost are not the people who buy boats.  At least the people that people that can afford the entry costs of a J70, J88, and J111 can afford the running costs as well as pay for the food, bar tab, and lodging for the crew.

Have no idea how many Ensigns

Have no idea how many J22

500+ J70's in a year

1000+J24 maybe more

Have no idea how many J27's

1000+ J80

600+ J105 (Do I hear a STFU from you know it all's)

300+ J109

Bucket load of J35

Several new J111 Fleets

Only a few J125?  ($$$ for a pro or two or three)

6 J90? (Can you say pro)

Dying M32 and M24 fleets? (Great boats BTW, but probably require at least one pro)

Apparently dying Viper fleets?

 

Why do you say?  Why?

 

The J-family designs boats with an eye on  fun.  They generally are not designed for maximum performance.  They are usually somewhat forgiving (OK a J24 is a pain). They can be used as multi-purpose boats with family on board. I agree price is an issue but with such a big chance to race OD, even in slow boats, why wouldn't you?  Wouldn't you want to have fun.  I would be surprised to find that a canting keel boat would be easy to sail and always fun.  Like the canters, water ballast means you have to somehow shift the ballast from side to side for optimum performance, again not always fun.  Come up with something fun, stable, and fast.  If this can be done with canting keels or  foils do it, but always keep the fun factor in mind.



#41 10thTonner

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:28 PM

If I had 75k, I'd probably get a one tonner and irc/orc her. 



#42 Soggy Crackers

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:15 PM

What is the purpose of this boat?  If the idea is to get more people into sailing, it probably needs to be a small boat.  I am guessing the proliferation of GRP dinghies back in the 60's was pretty important in the size of the big boat scene about 10-20 years later (although I wasn't around for it so I don't know).  And the Hobie cat did a pretty good job of getting new people into the sport.  In the latter situation, it was definitely about fun, and seems like it was done outside the mainstream in the sport.

 

I have no idea what the boat cost/life cost ratio looked like back in the day, but I know that I find it hard to stomach a $4000 annual budget for my sailing when all my other life priorities are included (primarily paying for the necessities and planning for kids/house and then traveling in country to visit family).  I currently race F-18s and I think they are a blast but a new boat at $25K is a non-starter for me.  So I am looking to downsize to a boat that fits my economy/life.

 

My ideal would be a easy-going bare-bones (low overhead) club with a variety of small boat classes (one-design starts are great but not necessary) racing with a range of skill level that goes from very basic to highly skilled.  Family friendly is a must going forward for me. 

 

Creve Coeur Sailing Association and Carlyle Sailing Association in St. Louis had a lot to do with my sailing upbringing and I think they did a lot of things right.  I also grew up in a family that sailed and definitely did not just race.  Creve Coeur Sailing Association also did a fair amount of non-racing.  It was a lot of fun.

 

So I guess growing sailing looks like this to me:

Low-cost of entry

Small-boat focused

Family-friendly

 

So the revolution-causing boat to me is <20ft long, <500lbs, <8ft wide.  And it is located at a club that actually caters to small boat sailors.  With families.  And dogs.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Graham



#43 Spoonie

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:32 PM

All that sounds great. Raced with 5 or 6 but make it single or double handable for day sailing or even racing, and something a wife/s.o. wouldn't hate to be on. Being able to use it casually for a weekend cruise is high on my list, as well as taking family and non-sailing friends... If we can safely go fast with minimal crack crew, that'd be a bonus....


This, but I'd say you should be able to race on 4 crew. The other comment about doing round the cans one day, and cat 3 the next is where my head is at. I like where all the 1010 style boats are at (jpk, mat, figaro, corby etc... ) offshore, shorthanded race machines with enough comfort for a weekender or short cruise with the family. I do wonder if you couldn't start a box rule on that basis: 33'x10', iso cat A... On a similar vein as the boats in that space.

People talk about the old days of the half tonners, but imho neither the boats or the racing in that class of boat exists. There's some super 30 action here and there but seems to be limited to round the cans or harbour racing. Is that becuase the demand isn't there? Or a genuine gap in the market? Or am i just missing out on the action?

#44 48buster

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:39 PM

yeah yeah more boats thats whats really gonna get people excited about the sport...



#45 rantifarian

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:44 PM

A design that spends a lot of time on fine tuning the trailer launch system, rigging systems, sail handling etc would go a long way towards your goal. Bring the focus back to sailing, reduce the time spent doing all the other annoying shit associated with trailerable/sportsboat sailing.

A decent anchoring system on a small boat would also make a big difference when taking novices out for a trip.

A decent place for the shitter, if you want any women on board.

 

Combine these sorts of things with an efficient, quick modern rig, and a nice slippery hull, you might have a winner. Sounds like about $150k worth of boat though



#46 acatter

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:48 PM

What is the purpose of this boat?  If the idea is to get more people into sailing, it probably needs to be a small boat.  I am guessing the proliferation of GRP dinghies back in the 60's was pretty important in the size of the big boat scene about 10-20 years later (although I wasn't around for it so I don't know).  And the Hobie cat did a pretty good job of getting new people into the sport.  In the latter situation, it was definitely about fun, and seems like it was done outside the mainstream in the sport.

 

I have no idea what the boat cost/life cost ratio looked like back in the day, but I know that I find it hard to stomach a $4000 annual budget for my sailing when all my other life priorities are included (primarily paying for the necessities and planning for kids/house and then traveling in country to visit family).  I currently race F-18s and I think they are a blast but a new boat at $25K is a non-starter for me.  So I am looking to downsize to a boat that fits my economy/life.

 

My ideal would be a easy-going bare-bones (low overhead) club with a variety of small boat classes (one-design starts are great but not necessary) racing with a range of skill level that goes from very basic to highly skilled.  Family friendly is a must going forward for me. 

 

Creve Coeur Sailing Association and Carlyle Sailing Association in St. Louis had a lot to do with my sailing upbringing and I think they did a lot of things right.  I also grew up in a family that sailed and definitely did not just race.  Creve Coeur Sailing Association also did a fair amount of non-racing.  It was a lot of fun.

 

So I guess growing sailing looks like this to me:

Low-cost of entry

Small-boat focused

Family-friendly

 

So the revolution-causing boat to me is <20ft long, <500lbs, <8ft wide.  And it is located at a club that actually caters to small boat sailors.  With families.  And dogs.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Graham

Highlander?  A hot rodded version could be lots of fun as a day sailor.



#47 acatter

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:54 PM

In place of canting keel (expensive) I'd do a cat.  High volume hulls to house minimum galley and head with decent berths and light weight bridge deck cabin with open design.  Dagger boards, outboard, main, jib and assemetrical on a retrractable sprit.  I know you lose the easy berthing, but the boat would get you the breakthrough speed.  It can also be made more idiot proof, with easy reefing and auto release sheets/traveler.



#48 positivenrj

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:07 PM

Lets go for some real Anarchy.  There are already a number of sport boats in all sizes.  My I suggest the way to get numbers racing again is to move backward not forward.  Get racing back to the family.  There are hundreds of racer cruisers around from the eighties.  All relatively inexpensive and a lot of bang for the buck,   We need to get a number of current boats out in fleets in which they can have fun and compete in their class.  Some PHRF, Some Cruiser PHRF some one design.  The move to the boat of the month, all windward leeward classes will not promote growth in the sport.  Old great boats J22,Olson 30, Hobie 33, Ericson 38, C&C 37,Capri 25, Capri 30, Santana 35 Schock 35 J35, Santana 30/30 ,Catalina 30 TM,Catalina 27.  For the sportier crowd  J80, J27,J29, Ultimate 20 Viper  Bboats, Laser Hobie 16 etc. etc.

 

Maybe we should even consider Dacron.



#49 TOTALXS

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:08 PM

 I would think, given the success of the J70 and the roaring 20's, the smaller sizes seem to fit people 's life styles better.  Then look at the success the Seascape 27 and the Pogo 30 seems to have,  Isn't even the Elan 210 doing well (sales) in Europe?  Perhaps there is some growing interest in faster with interiors.

 

With lots of smaller used boats in the 17 to 25 size range, getting into sailing is not expensive boat wise, it is everything else. And that conventional 22 footer takes four to  five to sail it well in a breeze. And it's slow.  So I think those mid-thirties folks get a bit bored but the 20's just don't offer family sailing. A boat that combines the size (for $$ and easy of ownership), enough performance. (the j70 proves it does not have to be the max) and decent weekend accommodations (think Merit 22 or SIrius 22 interiors) could be just as successful as the J70 is with a good, solid class association from the get go. 

 

That size range and purpose would also fit a decent number of older folks like me.  Did the faster sport boat thing (OK, not very successfully, but we had fun) and now have the big cruiser (and yes, we still race, but only long ocean ones so we can race by taking the condo...) But time prevents us from doing the things we bought the bigger boat to do so we are now looking to downsize. 

 

It is not the entry price that will make the determination of what to buy, but how easy it will be to keep, move and sail short handed.  Can we race it with a couple of friends and not worry about having enough crew?  Can we camp on it because that is part of the experience we like. Going to Charleston and renting a house is fun, but just four of us on a small boat would have been fun too.  And less hassle. 

 

I can trailer the boat to Charleston, enjoy the racing and trailer back on a weeks time.  With the big boat, stretch that to almost three weeks.  Can't take the time so we don't.  Boats like the Farr 280 and C&C 30 (and the imaginary Anarchy 33) sound like fun.  But take a far higher annual commitment of funds. The cost of hauling, setting on the trailer and then back again with the required larger (more gas) tow vehicle and over-sized load costs and restrictions - just yuck even if the dollars didn't matter.  And while many may have that one year, will they have it the next? As a business owner, that is a consideration.  Hmm, even the J70 could be done in a week so perhaps that is the attraction after all.  But then, we still would have to rent that house.. 

 

OK, for what it is worth, my vote is if we are going to do a Anarchy anything, it should be an Anarchy 22 or 23. Retractable keel, outboard off the ass with a well to store it in,  a dinette that folds down inside so it sleeps four, Class II towing so a V-6 can do it.  Carbon rig with an easy raising system. Porta-potti and two burner stove standard (for morning coffee!).  A least one class regatta a year you have to sleep on the boat.  Maybe a distance race?  Price no more than the J70?



#50 CraptainJack

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:53 PM

Well said.

 

Sorry, but unless you've got a trust fund, people under 30 aren't buying anything more than a 6 pack for beer can racing...

 

Life is pretty freaking expensive in general when you live in a city and make under 200K. New boats should be marketed to the 35+ crowd and even then people are starting families and buying their first houses.

 

Find a bank to work with that will give low interest loans with a few grand down to people with excellent credit, then build the boat... Maybe someone who's got a shitload of dough already and wants to advance the sport and finance the next generation?

 

It's 8-10K running costs in this area if you have a slip, guessing it's similar elsewhere...Boats are freaking expensive. 

 

I make it work with a partner, a mooring and an affordable yachtclub with storage. If those things weren't available, there's no way I'd own a boat...



#51 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:12 AM

Everybody keeps talking about cost, but cost seems to irrelevant to class growth.  J70 is selling like hot cakes and it costs, all up, almost as much as your $75,000 target.  

 

The J70 is selling big in Santa Barbara. Everyone I know who is buying one are worth well into the high 6 or over 7 figures.

No one in the Ventura / Oxnard area, only 25 miles south, has one or one on order, that I know of. The J70 is not a boat that the Middle Class can afford.

The J70 is a boat the wealthy older guys get because they do now want to hike like a Melges 24 or J 24 anymore.

 

Over priced J boat, like all of their other boats.

If J boats was interested in saving sailing, they would do something about it.

IMHO

 

 

+ 1 for the Viper. Cheap enough for all parties involved and the fleets from LB, MDR, and SF already come down to do NOODs. Why not a few more each year?

 

Just buy into the Viper Class.

  • Fast Fun Day Racing. Then for Offshore stuff go on someone else's big boat, there are plenty around..
  • 3 person planning boat,
  • Ramp or Hoist Launch so access to water is easy and you do not need the expensive club membership.
  • Not too expensive.
  • Young people will love it.
  • I believe there is a fleet in MDR and more down the So Cal coast and across the USA.

 

Why reinvent the wheel?

 

I wish I had my legs, the boat looks fun.

 

 

PS: See the sponsor of this forum!!!!

"+1 for the viper"?  Are you buying a Viper for sailing in SD?  The Viper fleet in San Diego is going in reverse - went 4 or 5 boats to only 1 boat that is not sold or for sale.

No doubt the class tapered off because they tried to race PHRF and Scot got a free Shaw 650 to race PHRF too. DUMB

I'm sure if Scot looked at the community he could have negotiated a deal on a Viper from the factory, to build a fleet and class race.

Let this be a lesson in how to destroy sailing.

 

Does anyone remember how the Hobie and Original Windsufer really took off??? ( I was part of the windsurfer craze)

Fun, Fun,Fun and some sailing.....oh yea, and affordability.



#52 Vernon Green

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:18 AM

Well said.

 

 

Sorry, but unless you've got a trust fund, people under 30 aren't buying anything more than a 6 pack for beer can racing...

 

Life is pretty freaking expensive in general when you live in a city and make under 200K. New boats should be marketed to the 35+ crowd and even then people are starting families and buying their first houses.

 

Find a bank to work with that will give low interest loans with a few grand down to people with excellent credit, then build the boat... Maybe someone who's got a shitload of dough already and wants to advance the sport and finance the next generation?

 

It's 8-10K running costs in this area if you have a slip, guessing it's similar elsewhere...Boats are freaking expensive. 

 

I make it work with a partner, a mooring and an affordable yachtclub with storage. If those things weren't available, there's no way I'd own a boat...

Not completely true about young people not buying boats. We ordered 5 VX's at our club and myself and one of the other buyers are under 30. It doesn't take a trust fund, it just take planning and sacrificing getting a new car and instead getting a new boat.... oh and it helps if your woman supports the cause.  



#53 Murphness

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:45 AM

Not completely true about young people not buying boats. We ordered 5 VX's at our club and myself and one of the other buyers are under 30. It doesn't take a trust fund, it just take planning and sacrificing getting a new car and instead getting a new boat.... oh and it helps if your woman supports the cause.  

 

I'm 31 and in a very similar situation... I'm talking about dropping 70k+ on a brand new 30'er. Could you or your buddies drop that kind of dough on a depreciating asset at this stage in the game?



#54 Beeracuda

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:47 AM

No question.  Boats are expensive.  If you have the bucks its not an issue.  If you don't its go small.  Regardless, its the fun factor that keeps this stuff going.  If it ain't fun it ain't worth spending money on.  The next regatta in my area currently has 41 boats registered.  its expected this will go to 50 before the smoke clears.  Rumor is that this one is a star pattern around some fixed marks and some moveable buoys. Here is the breakdown:

 

13 are entered in a special hancicap division.  Everything from a Westsail 32 to a Beneteau 49.  Handicap changes as a function of how well they do.

4 are well known local cruiser that will sail long distances just for fun. Cal 33 through Beneteau 473.

9 are non-spinn.  Catalina 22 through Cal 40.  Yes Catalina 22!

11 PHRF spin Billoch 26 through J120 (includes a J92s)

3 J105's

1 J109

 

Its probably a foregone conclusion that one of the 5's (racing class) or the 9 will win the overall trophy but the point is that a lot of sailors are going to have a lot of fun, drink a lot of rum, and have a fabulous time.  This is a formula that has proven to work here.   It is however not a formula for those only interested in the most optimum and high tech boat ever. Perhaps you super sailors should try it.

 

Had this been a pure W/L, my guess it would have only had about 10-12 boats sign up.  If you spend the time to talk to the cruisers you will discover some interesting facts

 

1.  They will race but they absolutely do not want to race against  fully equpiied race boats.  Not their cup of tea.

2.  They are not interested in sail wars.  They have sails and that's good enough for them.  Don't force them to buy new sails every year.

3.   Its party time stupid.

4.   Did I say its party time.

 

I still claim that fun is the issue. If it ain't fun it ain't worth doing.



#55 laserandy

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:49 AM

Not to re-hash what's been said, but if you want to open up sailing to more people who aren't doing it now, don't build another flavor of the same sport boat that's saturated the market.  If J/70s are selling like hotcakes, kill the rest of the sport boats and support that class.  Looking for another way to dillute it is just perpetuating the failure formula.

 

If you want something to bring a different crowed in, build a true family racer/cruiser that has something in it for both spouses and the kids.  Even if you can afford it, it's awefully hard to convince a spouse to buy a boat he/she isn't even going to be able to enjoy.

 

Here's a design brief:

 

*  Large enough to sleep four in relative comfort in truly separated compartments

 

*  Plumbed head in a separate compartment (head only, no sink, no shower, no vanity, just a head, toilet paper roll holder and enough room to stand up and turn around, and not in the v-berth for crying out loud, not open to the rest of the cabin or the forward stateroom).

 

*  small inboard diesel.

 

*  nice looking.

 

*  big enough rig to provide some performance, but small enough not to intimidate the non hard-core spouse and a pre-teen kid or two.

 

*  enough rig sensitivity to keep a 'mature' dinghy sailor content, but not so complicated that it requires constant attention.

 

*  enough stability not to intimidate the non hard-core spouse and a pre-teen kid or two, enough stability not to require a pack of rail meat just to stay upright while casually racing in moderate conditions.

 

*  Big enough cockpit to cocktail cruise four to six (this may be tough to accomdate in a 30'er that sleeps four and has a separate head, tiller sweep is an issue).  Make sure there is decent back support for a three hour tour.

 

*  Simple and forgiving enough that the speed differences between boats are small, makes racing closer in casual fleets and maximizes chances that everyone in the fleet has a taste of success

 

*  Don't simplify the rig so much that you only have jobs for one or two people and everyone else is left out of the fun most of the time, but keep it simple enough that you can race the boat casually with varying crew sizes.

 

*  nice looking (did I mention that before).  Make it look like a boat, not a toy.

 

*  simple galley surfaces, enough storage for plates and utinsels for six and cocktail containers for eight, sink with cold running water.

 

*  simple electrical system, cabin lights, instruments and running/anchor lights.

 

*  Hanging locker with space for a family of four's foulies.

 

*  standing headroom for a 6'2" owner

 

*  simple and durable construction

 

*  minimize unnecessary clutter, gadgets and complication, focus on build quality, durability and ease of maintenance over the long term.  People don't take small sailboats cruising for weeks on end, but they do take them one or two nights out.  Keep it easy to stock with ice, bottled water, food that doesn't need cooking and avoid built in things that will cost money and break.

 

*  a way to make coffee (yes, this arguably violates some of the other factors, but don't discount its importance)

 

*  target a cost between $100 and $150k (this seems reasonable to me for a nice looking useful and fun family racer cruiser).

 

People used to make boats like this back in the 60s, 70s and early 80s, they even sold a couple.  To me, 30' is about the ideal size, the slips are reasonable, things charged by the foot (winter storage, bottom paint, hauling, detailing, etc.) are relatively affordable, and it's small enough for one experienced family member to handle alone around the docks without much drama while the rest of the family/cocktail party enjoy themselves.

 

Just my 2 cents.



#56 Norm

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:58 AM

Not to re-hash what's been said, but if you want to open up sailing to more people who aren't doing it now, don't build another flavor of the same sport boat that's saturated the market.  If J/70s are selling like hotcakes, kill the rest of the sport boats and support that class.  Looking for another way to dillute it is just perpetuating the failure formula.
 
If you want something to bring a different crowed in, build a true family racer/cruiser that has something in it for both spouses and the kids.  Even if you can afford it, it's awefully hard to convince a spouse to buy a boat he/she isn't even going to be able to enjoy.
 
Here's a design brief:
 
*  Large enough to sleep four in relative comfort in truly separated compartments
 
*  Plumbed head in a separate compartment (head only, no sink, no shower, no vanity, just a head, toilet paper roll holder and enough room to stand up and turn around, and not in the v-berth for crying out loud, not open to the rest of the cabin or the forward stateroom).
 
*  small inboard diesel.
 
*  nice looking.
 
*  big enough rig to provide some performance, but small enough not to intimidate the non hard-core spouse and a pre-teen kid or two.
 
*  enough rig sensitivity to keep a 'mature' dinghy sailor content, but not so complicated that it requires constant attention.
 
*  enough stability not to intimidate the non hard-core spouse and a pre-teen kid or two, enough stability not to require a pack of rail meat just to stay upright while casually racing in moderate conditions.
 
*  Big enough cockpit to cocktail cruise four to six (this may be tough to accomdate in a 30'er that sleeps four and has a separate head, tiller sweep is an issue).  Make sure there is decent back support for a three hour tour.
 
*  Simple and forgiving enough that the speed differences between boats are small, makes racing closer in casual fleets and maximizes chances that everyone in the fleet has a taste of success
 
*  Don't simplify the rig so much that you only have jobs for one or two people and everyone else is left out of the fun most of the time, but keep it simple enough that you can race the boat casually with varying crew sizes.
 
*  nice looking (did I mention that before).  Make it look like a boat, not a toy.
 
*  simple galley surfaces, enough storage for plates and utinsels for six and cocktail containers for eight, sink with cold running water.
 
*  simple electrical system, cabin lights, instruments and running/anchor lights.
 
*  Hanging locker with space for a family of four's foulies.
 
*  standing headroom for a 6'2" owner
 
*  simple and durable construction
 
*  minimize unnecessary clutter, gadgets and complication, focus on build quality, durability and ease of maintenance over the long term.  People don't take small sailboats cruising for weeks on end, but they do take them one or two nights out.  Keep it easy to stock with ice, bottled water, food that doesn't need cooking and avoid built in things that will cost money and break.
 
*  a way to make coffee (yes, this arguably violates some of the other factors, but don't discount its importance)
 
*  target a cost between $100 and $150k (this seems reasonable to me for a nice looking useful and fun family racer cruiser).
 
People used to make boats like this back in the 60s, 70s and early 80s, they even sold a couple.  To me, 30' is about the ideal size, the slips are reasonable, things charged by the foot (winter storage, bottom paint, hauling, detailing, etc.) are relatively affordable, and it's small enough for one experienced family member to handle alone around the docks without much drama while the rest of the family/cocktail party enjoy themselves.
 
Just my 2 cents.



#57 rollingstone

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:05 AM

DSS as mentioned above is a good start. I've sailed the Infiniti 36 in Palma bay in 18 knots of breeze with an A5 up and it was pretty awesome seeing what sticking the board out allowed the thing to carry. But even at reducing the size down to 33 your going to be looking at way north of 75k...I don't get where the canting keel idea fits in that price range either if this is a price ready to sail...plus isn't it always light airs in San Diego.? Those ideas wouldn't be as effective as coming out with a crazy twist on an old concept thing sand baggers......If the concern is to get people racing then performance is not the issue...especially since it drives up cost. You get people on the water with a 30 footer that's a strict one design. Has caps on sail tech and spar tech and therefore cost. 20 boats on the water at as cost of 40k or less....would be more fun as racing would be close, that's where the adrenaline comes in. If you want adrenaline for speed get a kite board. With a strict one design at low cost the close completion among a bigger fleet makes better racers...younger people getting into it will enjoy taking scalps of local big wigs as they get better. A bigger fleet keeps up second hand prices giving a cheaper in for the starters and stops the risk of huge devaluation for those who need to sell and get out. You can't take your 6 year old kid on a 33 carbon rocket....put him/her in something like a dragon ( very technical boats to sail and at least in Europe, new might be expensive but second hand you can good deals) ..they can watch and learn like a sponge....then you get race crew and when they get older they might even want one themselves..... Plus you have a pretty daysailer that's safe to take missus and kids...so you could take less shit for the financial outlay on non race days....worry about pushing a tech class once you deal with actually having sailors on the water

#58 Norm

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:08 AM

I'm with laserandy, although more in the head discharge as shower and sink. it won't be a sport boat though which suits me. there is already enough of them.

Canting keel would be pain.

Bob had a work experience kid do a 25 footer and it looks great. Or something along lines of bieker riptide range as a 33 footer

Vx and viper people - you are in the wrong thread - same with j70

#59 evenflow

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:13 AM

Nice idea, you want something that fits in above the gap in this reference.... http://dlo9dp2r69urx...280-compare.jpg (Great Article).  The closest thing is the Columbia 30... and the new C&C30ODR (C&C30-3!!!) at $125k will work.  I don't know how you do 32-33 feet at $75k?  Should sell like crazy at that price, right? 

 

Now I believe the real issue is that sailing needs a non-J/Boat that is fast, but can be crewed with 2-5 people, trailerable (under 3,500lbs tow weight/retractable keel, and a simple spinnaker arrangement (sprit/furler?).  The J/70s have that, but they are just a bit too small - The J/80 is good, but getting long in the tooth and heavy - you need a truck to pull it. I personally like the idea of new and refreshed B-25 (yes I know a new version is out there, but it is $80+k!), Henderson SR25, Elliot 770 or an Ultimate 24/Antrim 25... just put in a deeper keel, with more lead, and a carbon mast, etc.  Make it powerful, but controlable by a short handed crew... that is the issue.  I am stunned the FT-7.5 didn't succeed?  Farr 25 is nice, as is the GP26... need more of those.  Found a guy in St. Petersburg (Russia... yeah... don't go there  http://www.raketa-ya...ru/serial/gp-26) who'd build one for $30k + the cost of a mast.

 

If I really wanted a fun 30+ footer I'd get a Farr/Mumm30, Henderson 30, or go in whole hog CC&30ODR or J/88 but getting a larger crew is the problem.  One of the reasons you see NFS (white sails) racing taking off and good races dying is folks can't get crew and they are getting older.  A good boat would be a new C&C27Mk.V... Catalina has the new 275... looks nice but $80K... rather spend another $40 for a real racer.

 

Keep the dream alive...



#60 evenflow

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:26 AM

The other consideration... Time... it needs to be easy to maintain, outboard powered and easy to setup and learn to sail.

 

Price... yes $35k for a 25 footer...  J/Boats are too expensive!

 

Laslty and yes, I hate Windward Leeward courses, but PHRF loves them... so you need a boat that can get enough momentum to have OD Fleets, but are also good / fair to rate PHRF boats.

 

25+ feet with enough inside room to do a long race (300miles), ISO Cat B rating and options for water, head, stove, etc.

 

Done - I'll have my cheque book out for the first one that fits all of that, and a for sale sign on my CC30-2.



#61 nemesis

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 06:29 AM

Even though I'm a sport boat guy through and through, I think it's the wrong tact. Don't get me wrong... The soon to be 20 year old Melges 30 is still my favorite boat, but I don't see the technical nature and expertise required to sail these beasts as all-inclusive.

How about a modern day PC? A return to classic lines, three sails. But all modern build.

#62 FatimaRules

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 06:36 AM

Shouldn't J be working on a J99 just about now?

Of course it's going to truly blow the budget, but that would kind of define a successful 33 ish.

#63 Kapteeni Kalma

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:20 AM

Quadrilateral genoa and an interceptor does generate heaps of new speed at minimum cost. But then of course these are verboten by the rules.



#64 flutter

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:00 AM

Foils, obviously

#65 6924

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:45 PM

foils like Wild Oats XI or like AC72 ? 



#66 carcrash

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 02:57 PM

Its not about speed, even when racing. Its hard to identify another form of conveyance slower than a sailboat.

Its about fun. Hobie and Windsurfer outsold everything. Some of those people still sail.

Popular activities, even for this crowd, are social. For example, right now there are 450 people on the forums here. Compare that to your latest purely competitive event.

There are clubs all over Manhatten, full most any night. More expensive than a day sailing a Hobie or Windsurfer.

Gotta be fun. That means, gotta be social. That means, cant be about the equipment.

#67 fdsailor

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 03:25 PM

Who was it that said that you can have two of 3 things in a boat - price, performance and comfort? Dick Newick maybe? Hobie 33 (US) and X-99 (Europe) come closest as both have existing tooling, existing class, secondhand options, and enthusiastic owners (people make classes, the boat is really secondary IMHO). Put a stylist to work on the exterior styling (windows on both boats could do with an update), and look at places you can save money. If enough people are seen to be getting involved, others will follow. When groups of owners get together and agree to all buy the same thing, amazing things can happen. It's a critical mass thing.

 

The big issue is getting enough people to agree and commit - the boat is almost secondary to that. Otherwise everyone here wouldn't be sailing Solos and Lasers ;-)

 

This is what happened with 1/4 tonners - a couple of high-profile owners committed, and nostalgia did the rest. The boats are not exactly great by modern standards. Ditto the growing Etchells fleet on the Clyde.

 

I think the Hobie especially could look awesome with a styling make-over, and people would have the option of buying a new one if they could afford it or bringing an older one up to scratch otherwise. The Farr 30 looks good for a project liek this too, but doesn't really have family accomodation...



#68 sailon

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 04:24 PM

One of my biggest disappointments with the new sportboats is that the sail control lines are still scattered around the boat.  I would like to see all control lines (i.e., Cunningham, Vang, backstay, jib cunningham etc.) centralized near the driver, (think Etchells or MC Scow) so that the driver can "tweak" the power his sails are delivering.  Locate the purchases safely below deck so that the adjustments can be made with fingertip control.



#69 Doug Lord

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 05:05 PM

Design the boat from scratch for DSS and you'd have a speed machine in light and heavy air. Talk to Hugh.



#70 Hitchhiker

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 09:53 PM

Not to re-hash what's been said, but if you want to open up sailing to more people who aren't doing it now, don't build another flavor of the same sport boat that's saturated the market.  If J/70s are selling like hotcakes, kill the rest of the sport boats and support that class.  Looking for another way to dillute it is just perpetuating the failure formula.

 

If you want something to bring a different crowed in, build a true family racer/cruiser that has something in it for both spouses and the kids.  Even if you can afford it, it's awefully hard to convince a spouse to buy a boat he/she isn't even going to be able to enjoy.

 

Here's a design brief:

 

*  Large enough to sleep four in relative comfort in truly separated compartments

 

*  Plumbed head in a separate compartment (head only, no sink, no shower, no vanity, just a head, toilet paper roll holder and enough room to stand up and turn around, and not in the v-berth for crying out loud, not open to the rest of the cabin or the forward stateroom).

 

*  small inboard diesel.

 

*  nice looking.

 

*  big enough rig to provide some performance, but small enough not to intimidate the non hard-core spouse and a pre-teen kid or two.

 

*  enough rig sensitivity to keep a 'mature' dinghy sailor content, but not so complicated that it requires constant attention.

 

*  enough stability not to intimidate the non hard-core spouse and a pre-teen kid or two, enough stability not to require a pack of rail meat just to stay upright while casually racing in moderate conditions.

 

*  Big enough cockpit to cocktail cruise four to six (this may be tough to accomdate in a 30'er that sleeps four and has a separate head, tiller sweep is an issue).  Make sure there is decent back support for a three hour tour.

 

*  Simple and forgiving enough that the speed differences between boats are small, makes racing closer in casual fleets and maximizes chances that everyone in the fleet has a taste of success

 

*  Don't simplify the rig so much that you only have jobs for one or two people and everyone else is left out of the fun most of the time, but keep it simple enough that you can race the boat casually with varying crew sizes.

 

*  nice looking (did I mention that before).  Make it look like a boat, not a toy.

 

*  simple galley surfaces, enough storage for plates and utinsels for six and cocktail containers for eight, sink with cold running water.

 

*  simple electrical system, cabin lights, instruments and running/anchor lights.

 

*  Hanging locker with space for a family of four's foulies.

 

*  standing headroom for a 6'2" owner

 

*  simple and durable construction

 

*  minimize unnecessary clutter, gadgets and complication, focus on build quality, durability and ease of maintenance over the long term.  People don't take small sailboats cruising for weeks on end, but they do take them one or two nights out.  Keep it easy to stock with ice, bottled water, food that doesn't need cooking and avoid built in things that will cost money and break.

 

*  a way to make coffee (yes, this arguably violates some of the other factors, but don't discount its importance)

 

*  target a cost between $100 and $150k (this seems reasonable to me for a nice looking useful and fun family racer cruiser).

 

People used to make boats like this back in the 60s, 70s and early 80s, they even sold a couple.  To me, 30' is about the ideal size, the slips are reasonable, things charged by the foot (winter storage, bottom paint, hauling, detailing, etc.) are relatively affordable, and it's small enough for one experienced family member to handle alone around the docks without much drama while the rest of the family/cocktail party enjoy themselves.

 

Just my 2 cents.

I think the boat you have just outlined is called an Andrews 28.  Someone with deep pockets ought to invest in Sylvana Yachts and start up production again.  Every thing is there to build a high quality racer cruiser.



#71 Southern Cross

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 10:45 PM



WOXI DSS & KK combo.

#72 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:48 AM

Thoughts? Think.

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#73 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:48 AM

Thoughts? Think.33' and 30'.

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#74 Swimsailor

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:56 AM

My dad got me into sailing when I was 8 or 9, watching the America's Cup. he had gotten into sailing in Dallas many years before on a friend's O'Day 22 on Grapevine Lake. It's been my goal my whole life to own my own boat. i can't buy a Laser because I want my family to come with me. I'm a competitve guy so I also want to race. There are actually quite a few boats that fit the bill, but stuff keeps coming up and its tough to make the purchase.

The original thought in Scooters post just sounds like a rehashed FT10. Some cool tech would be great as long it makes the boat simpler to sail, faster and more fun.

A lot of the posts above sound like boats that are already out there. I've read more than a few that seem to describe thr Left Coast Dart.

But I second what some have said, that its not the boat, but the people. Check out what the Park City Sailing Association is doing here in Utah. They're making sailing very accessable with limited funds.

The best way to see more boats and owners on the water is to be cool, don't be an asshole and cry about ratings, sportboats and evil rich bastards who sell student loans. Try being inclusive, invite non-sailors to sail.

In Utah we have an overabundance of jet skis and $90k Ski Nautiques. I don't know if we'll convert those rednecks but the money is out there. Maybe a new design could change all that, but we have to prove sailors are cool.

#75 Southern Cross

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 03:20 AM

Thoughts? Think.33' and 30'.
attachicon.gif313Rpic3.jpg
attachicon.gif316gaspl-jl17-12.jpg


Is the keel finished on the 33' and is that a DSS sticking out of the stern of the 30'? Or is it the computer program futzing up your rudder?

I like the 30'. What goes on underneath?

#76 jkdubs808

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 03:21 AM

Yet another boat to be put in the already waning market. Seriously? This reminds me of the Annapolis 30 and the FT10. Both cool boats but didn't survive very long. Not worth the time in my opinion. Flooding the market with options isn't necessarily the best way to revive the sport.

#77 Fredrik2

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 09:56 AM

I think that to really revolutionize sailing we need to create something else, where the boat is just one piece of the puzzle. We need a truly broad base of sailors that make up the foundation of our sport.
  • The total cost per season has to be cut dramatically.
  • It has to be easily accessible, 10 min from arriving at the dock to go sailing.
  • All sailors regardless of physical capacity (a 20 year old against a 60 year old) and experience must be able to compete and have fun.
To achieve this I think we need to change the way we look at the boat. Sailing is one of very few sports were the cost of the equipment isn't shared by its participator. Golf, tennis, ice hockey, skiing, football etc they all spread the cost of their fields, courts, lifts etc. The world of match racing is doing this - lets bring it to the every day sailor!
 
My vision:
Imagine a chain of sail center with 50 Melges 20's on boat lifts with a couple of full time employees looking after things. Monday night it's sailing school , Tuesday night it is race training, Wednesday night it's newbees beer can racing without kites, Thursday night beer can series, Saturday its Match racing, once very month its national events, a couple of times per year its invitationals where amateurs meet pros, weekdays its corporate events, the list can be made very long. If you win the local series - you get to travel, expenses paid, to the grand final at one of the other centers.
 
This way we could bring the cost of  a local season to <$4000 for a crew of 3-4 which is a cost even students can carry. I have a very large excel detailing this :).
Boats waiting on the dock to go sailing at the push of a button - sailing would become very accessible to everyone with limited time on their hands. With legs in no hiking a 60 year old could give hard hiking youngsters and pros a run for the money. Yes - it has to be a fun uncomplicated boat to sail. The Melges 20 might not be the answer but I think we all agree that it is a fun boat with a true Grand prix feeling to it. 
 
Just my thoughts.
:) Fredrik

 



#78 flutter

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:23 PM

ac72

 

foils like Wild Oats XI or like AC72 ? 



#79 flutter

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:30 PM

Its not about speed, even when racing. Its hard to identify another form of conveyance slower than a sailboat.

Its about fun. Hobie and Windsurfer outsold everything. Some of those people still sail.

Popular activities, even for this crowd, are social. For example, right now there are 450 people on the forums here. Compare that to your latest purely competitive event.

There are clubs all over Manhatten, full most any night. More expensive than a day sailing a Hobie or Windsurfer.

Gotta be fun. That means, gotta be social. That means, cant be about the equipment.

ahh, you've nailed it. They don't need a new design. They should just build a new s&s 34.



#80 USA_73

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 01:04 PM

Agreed with most thoughts here. Compared to running costs, the boat is next to nothing. Speed only does not make a fun boat. If the boat is for racing only, you miss just having fun.

I think the big problem I have seen is the thought that you need to have a 33' boat to have a real boat. A few years ago at my club, there were a lot of smaller boats, and 3 J/24s. Today, I have the second smallest spinnaker boat at 27'.  My wife and I sailed the crap out of it though. Even though we live 45 min from the boat, we are out there for the Tuesday women's series, Wednesday beercans, occasionally out watching the Thursday one-design, and then once or twice on the weekend with varied friends, including staying over, circuit races or cruising.

 

The actual racing and the boat is the smallest aspect of the program. It's about the fun and friends.



#81 bloodshot

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 01:06 PM

DSS and under $75K?  i don't think so. 



#82 couchsurfer

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:25 PM

Editor trying to knock up his own FT 10 ovum.

 

actually more like titty fuck it. stay off my beach.

 

 

Sorry I stole your wave Ed. Pulling a knife is a little uncalled for though.

.

 

....strange indeed

...who knows what th'ED's on these days 

 

 

 

...good way to rile existing builders that support this site

 

 

..it must be getting quiet on the legal front....I guess the folks in Fres couldn't even be bothered!



#83 rmb

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 06:05 PM

Like a couple others have said, do a dss.  The 36 is a beautiful boat, and super fast in all conditions.

 

You can avoid the complication and expense of Canting keel and associated daggerboards.



#84 Tanton Yacht Design

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 06:13 PM

Southern Cross.

Attached File  316CR1-MY21-12.jpg   34.8K   36 downloads Attached File  316p3blog.jpg   55.08K   40 downloads Attached File  316ph1-JL4-12.jpg   138.82K   31 downloads

The 30 bottom. More can be seen on my Blog, under "L'Aileron".Post 8/10/12



#85 Steam Flyer

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 07:32 PM

I think that increasing the complexity and thereby cost, is not going to help things.

 

This.

 

A Flying Tiger sized boat, only faster (ie needs more structure not less) esp due to an added major component; for 75% of the Flying Tiger's price? I really don't think this is going to work out.

 

Oh and the resulting boat is not only going to work, it's going to be the Next Big Thing and it's going to Save Sailing?

 

Sorry, The Ed.... but you need more hookers and less blow

 

FB- Doug



#86 davidprobable

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 08:38 PM

WTF  is this about?   This thread disappeared for 3 or 4 days after started by Ed  and now it is back.   Why?   It is just slush about a selfish concept.   These boats are useless for family and without family sailing will ultimately die of  lack of interest and lack of throw away funding.    Racing/sailing without a proper family cruising ability and resale value retention is strictly elitist selfish wankerism.    Bring back the C&C mentality of useable boats that your family wants to go visit and play with.   Or go back to your  wankerism and narcissism  but  use  plastic mirrors to minimize  dangers.



#87 The salamander

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:02 PM

The perfect solution is that everybody goes out and buys $10,000  Used Hobie 33  and race down wind to tropical places that serves margaritas and  mai tai's.



#88 ease hike trim

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:05 PM


 
Over priced J boat, like all of their other boats.
If J boats was interested in saving sailing, they would do something about it.

 
Stupid comment...if it's overpriced why have they sold 550 of them? Let me know when you're going to tell Tim Healy he's a "wealthy older guy who doesn't want to hike on a M24." Would like to check that out.

#89 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:44 PM

One of my biggest disappointments with the new sportboats is that the sail control lines are still scattered around the boat.  I would like to see all control lines (i.e., Cunningham, Vang, backstay, jib cunningham etc.) centralized near the driver, (think Etchells or MC Scow) so that the driver can "tweak" the power his sails are delivering.  Locate the purchases safely below deck so that the adjustments can be made with fingertip control.

Then water gets below. We are talking about making sailing fun.


Just go get your Etchells or MC Scow.

Or get a Viper 640 that your can take you kid out in, when he gets good in his Opti.



#90 Spoonie

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:17 AM

Flooding the market with options isn't necessarily the best way to revive the sport.


I disagree; it's clear from this thread and forum that everyone wants something different ranging from weekend cruising with the familly to americas cup hopefuls, grand prix racers, shorthanded blue water sailors and everything in between. Why not flood the market with options? It gets everyone a chance to get in at the level they can endure or desire. I can see one more boat only helping the cause!

If you ask anyone, you will always get a response that "there are always boats looking for crew..." Which would suggest there is no shortage of boat owners already looking to go racing. This makes the barrier for entry for the average joe pretty low: maybe a six pack of beer, some non marking shoes & clothes for the conditions, and a club membership. It would seem to me then the problem isn't getting boats on water, its getting the average joe on a boat and having fun. Eventually average Joe likes this sailing caper enough that he decides he wants his own boat and voila! More boats on the water...

I reckon people sail and race for some pretty common reasons:
* the excitement of racing and thrill of good results
* for pleasure and relaxation
* for the challenge, self enlightenment or personal growth
* the social and comradre aspects being part of a team or club brings

If your club or race numbers are declining, then maybe you're not provinding one of those things or just making the barrier to entry for the average joe too hard. get Joe down on the dock, make them feel safe, give them a job to do, make 'em feel part of the team and give them the thrill of success from time to time. Understand they have other lives and can't commit every week, and give them a chance to grow and learn.

The bench marks used here and on this site seem to be J boats and Australian Sailing. J boats have just about a boat for everyone, they create a community, promote regattas and sound like they provide endless amounts of support to new and used J owners alike. They cater for the grand prix racers and family cruisers, the one design fanatics and the beer can racers. As for Aussie sailing? The biggest fleets on sydney harbour are eclectic mixes of everything, roughly grouped by size & performance with handicaps that float from week to week. We all go out, some times with kite racing, sometimes without, sometimes we have a beer on the water, sometimes we don't, and if average Joe has a good day out there compared to normal, he usually gets something to take home for his efforts to the cheers of a usually packed bar... If fixed ratings and one design is your thing, then we have that too, some times in parallel.

Where does this new boat that will save [US] sailing fit in that picture?

Having said that, an affordable canting 33'er is probably the personal wet dream of many, including myself!....

...as long as it meets all my other very personal requirements as well that is ;)

Cheers
Craig

#91 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:40 AM

Flooding the market with options isn't necessarily the best way to revive the sport.

I disagree; it's clear from this thread and forum that everyone wants something different ranging from weekend cruising with the familly to americas cup hopefuls, grand prix racers, shorthanded blue water sailors and everything in between. Why not flood the market with options? It gets everyone a chance to get in at the level they can endure or desire. I can see one more boat only helping the cause!

If you ask anyone, you will always get a response that "there are always boats looking for crew..." Which would suggest there is no shortage of boat owners already looking to go racing. This makes the barrier for entry for the average joe pretty low: maybe a six pack of beer, some non marking shoes & clothes for the conditions, and a club membership. It would seem to me then the problem isn't getting boats on water, its getting the average joe on a boat and having fun. Eventually average Joe likes this sailing caper enough that he decides he wants his own boat and voila! More boats on the water...

I reckon people sail and race for some pretty common reasons:
* the excitement of racing and thrill of good results
* for pleasure and relaxation
* for the challenge, self enlightenment or personal growth
* the social and comradre aspects being part of a team or club brings

If your club or race numbers are declining, then maybe you're not provinding one of those things or just making the barrier to entry for the average joe too hard. get Joe down on the dock, make them feel safe, give them a job to do, make 'em feel part of the team and give them the thrill of success from time to time. Understand they have other lives and can't commit every week, and give them a chance to grow and learn.

The bench marks used here and on this site seem to be J boats and Australian Sailing. J boats have just about a boat for everyone, they create a community, promote regattas and sound like they provide endless amounts of support to new and used J owners alike. They cater for the grand prix racers and family cruisers, the one design fanatics and the beer can racers. As for Aussie sailing? The biggest fleets on sydney harbour are eclectic mixes of everything, roughly grouped by size & performance with handicaps that float from week to week. We all go out, some times with kite racing, sometimes without, sometimes we have a beer on the water, sometimes we don't, and if average Joe has a good day out there compared to normal, he usually gets something to take home for his efforts to the cheers of a usually packed bar... If fixed ratings and one design is your thing, then we have that too, some times in parallel.

Where does this new boat that will save [US] sailing fit in that picture?

Having said that, an affordable canting 33'er is probably the personal wet dream of many, including myself!....

...as long as it meets all my other very personal requirements as well that is ;)

Cheers
Craig

And then we are all racing PHRF.............Sport Boats are not rated properly in PHRF.



#92 huey 2

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:46 AM

What a topic !    You mentioned the Shaw canter 9 , Two were built in NZ Karma Police and Deep Throat. Rob built his with the boatbuilding students at Unitec; he also designed a 10 Orbit and a 10.6 Rehab. These have raced in harbour  and coastal races shorthanded and crewed. checkout Bay of Island races and Coastal classic overnight race.  Also have a look at The Round North Island Race a two week four stops shorthanded race. Lots of stuff on the SSANZ site, with the last race just been run in March, A battle royal was had between Robs design Blink 12m canter and another designers boats Greg Elliott s Buhido 35SS canter and Overload 9m canter Great racing but also some older Murray Ross designs that have been turboed improving perfomances. Bushidos performance in 20-30 knots in second leg impressive and the last leg where they outsailed the bigger Blink to the line. The little canter Elliott Overload also had some impressive performances against Karma Police in past RNI, and this current RNI but you have to check out Youtube of REVS and Overload in 2009 hsbc coastal classic. cheers.



#93 bstang

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:34 AM

I like the idea and the initial lines look sexy (almost as sexy as my wife)...I would buy this today, at the less than $100k price point as long as...

  • the canting keel can also lift to a draft of 4ft or less (8 ft is sweet for the deep water race course, but I need a realistic option for getting home after the race)
  • the boat can generate a following of enough buyers to create competitive regional fleets (at least a fleet in the NYC / NJ / LI Sound  Area)
  • tiller or wheel...who cares? (I am cool with either option, as long as the cockpit is HUGE)
  • settees on the port and starboard beams that convert to 2 bunked seabirths per side to accomodate the crew while on point to point races (or when they drink to much to drive home after rounding the buoys)
  • standing headroom below, at least enough so that my wife can stand...she is 5'2" (happy wife, happy life)

I am pumped about this happening...let's do this!



#94 Spoonie

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 02:01 AM

And then we are all racing PHRF.............Sport Boats are not rated properly in PHRF.


US based phrf seems to me more like an annual yardstick. Engaging designers to champion your cause at a handicap committee 'cause your number is whacked? Give me a break! Do you hear aussies complaining about their club handicap number? No, because if you sail fast, next week it goes up! I don't see how that doesn't rate a sport boat properly. sure in light stuff, you probably lag a little till you get planing, then blow everyone away. Your handicap goes up and down each week as the system tries to pull everyone into the mean. Any problems there is more about trying to race drastically different boats against eachother and trying to pick a single number that suits. If you want a handicap that can deal with that, think IMS and course construction.

Is it perfect, no, but at the end of the day, if you want to race drastically different boats agaisnt eachother, you have to accept compromises. I know a few clubs who tried various measurement systems and still do. Sports boats down here have sms, we also have ams for keel boats for those that want to go down that path or race regattas. Getting your boats weighed and measured? Fighting with some guy who pulled a number out of his head and fixed it for the year? Forget it! Rock up and sail! If you sail well, we'll bump your handicap...

...pretty common down here, and you don't see threads like 'how do we save australian sailing' appearing,or 'what boat rates well under australian performance handicap'

On a side note, if you want to save US sailing, when was the last time you introduced someone new to sailing and they stuck at it? At the water cooler, do you talkabout the tops afternoon out on the boat with the boys, a couple of beers and a killer sunset or bitch about how you were robbed by the idiot handicapper?

Your comment would probably discourage me from buying a sportboat in the us. If that's the sort of boat I like to sail, i'd probably decide it wasnt worth it and leave the sport...

...now ask yourself, is that a new boat, your club, us sailing, or you that can fix that?

#95 solosailor

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 03:09 AM

I hear a lot of ideas and features that will never happen @ 75k, be lightweight, and fun to sail.     



#96 nuffy

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 03:45 AM

Trailerable Canters have been tried by Julian Bethwaite in the 79er/Sports 8xx/Conquistador. It had mixed results I believe. I think it was slower than the first Bethwaite sports 8 "Vivace". 

 

http://www.thedailys...w-8m-sportsboat

 

http://www.asba.org....7/conquistador/

 



#97 ThomasShepherd

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:54 AM

Pogo 30, bring it west.

 

Small boat ~< 30', performance up and down wind, spartan interior that still gives you everything you need for a long weekend (private head, sleeps 4+ adults). Tunable rig, inboard diesel, sprit. Not convinced by a canting keel but potentially something raise-able to allow shallow water operations.

 

But honestly there's a huge culture problem. Stopping in Newport Harbor (CA) recently we scavenged a tie up through contacts. While supremely grateful to these contacts we should have been able to expect to tie up 8 deep on some harbor front location if needed without worrying about it ahead of time - sure they've got a load of moorings but no water taxi wtf? We need water front destinations with easy water access. Malls, cinemas, restaurants that don't specialize in seafood.



#98 french do it better

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 07:38 AM

33' canting sporty ?

look no further than the psaros 33 http://www.sebschmid...ortfolio/09362/

4 are currently sailing



#99 huey 2

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:05 AM

and the luthi 850



#100 Bob Perry

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:59 PM

I never saw a finished Nap 30.  I saw 120 FT10m's . The whole Nap 30 program was a sorry joke. To make something like this work you need someone like Da Man, Bill Stephens. I know he was hated here but he's the one who put up the money to pay to get the tooling for the Ft10m built. Without a money man you are all just fucking the dog.






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