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Team New Zealand NZL-82 Hula Design & Breakdowns


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#1 AustraliaII4Eva

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:29 AM

In this downtime for the Americas Cup before all the buzz of the next 35th AC Protocol I was hoping to learn from my esteemed colleagues here on AC Anarchy about the 2003 TNZ Defender NZL-82.

Ive read little on this 2003 Defence and was wondering if someone out there could explain the ingenious "HULA" design NZL-82 incorporated??? The reason the advantages and disadvantages!!

In Race 1 of the defence did this HULA break down leading to all the water that came in the boat and did any of this design lead to the dismasting of NZL-82 in Race 4??

Race 2 showed both Alinghi SUI-64 & TNZ NZL-82 to be very close in speed. Does anyone know of the difference upwind, downwind, maneuvering of both AC Final boats in 2003?

Forgive me for my ignorance I just always wanted to know about the HULA design and breakdowns of NZL-82 that unfolded in the summer of 2003 in Auckland NZ!!

So much has been written on the sailors and all the AC Politics that went on but I was hoping to learn about the boats themselves, why the HULA & why did NZL-82 experience those mishaps in her 2003 Defence!!



#2 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:17 AM

After Blake, Sefton and co asset stripped TNZ and left them broke. coutts and co went to Berterelli for support for the team. berterelli said he would sponsor TNZ but Blake and co said no way.

Coutts and co saw the writing on the wall and realised that TNZ could not defend with no money and no support/sponsors.

Coutts and co tried hard to sort this but Blake and co would not compromise and took the money and left.

coutts, wanting to win, said bye bye to TNZ.... and won won won

Enter Barker and poor old Tom Snacks.

Desperate to prove himself Barker failed to bring money to the team, took a gamble with a hula on the new boat, but failed to obtain new masts and other vital gear needed to test and race with.

Snacks and Barker took a good team and focused on trick shit like hulas instead of masts, booms, etc...

He also, due to no resources and no money, could not push the gear they had, as they could not afford replacement.

Basically, Barker and co were shafted but also did not organize and re think their defence around priorites that would make them fast and relaiable. They did however pay themselves very well!!!( yip! The pay packets were good the masts old)

Barker took a team that was good but under resourced, failed to make it strong and ran a poor campaign. Snacks was no better but he had Nothing to prove and nothing to lose.

Thus TNZ raced with an old mast, a dodgy boom(which broke), no idea how their boat performed in a breeze( did not test in a breeze for fear of breaking the only good mast they had), no idea that the boat would fill with water and it might need venturi's, and no idea the hula was a dog.

Yip! Barker was left a depressed and dejected boy, and that was the start of his AC career. A career that has not got any better in Valencia ( fucked up tack at the top mark) and San Fran ( poor slam dunk/ failure to change/ piss poor leadership)

Meanwhile Russ and do went from success to success.

#3 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:23 AM

By the way. the reason the boat failed was a result of the politics that preceeded it as well as the planning / decisions that followed. They are intertwined.

#4 Bill R

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:44 AM

Sir Clean lets have the answers about the hula, What was the idea behind it? there must have been some reason for building it.



#5 Scarecrow

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:55 AM

Hula was relatively easy to understand.  Post '95 is had become increasingly clear that in the IACC equation there were major advantages to be gained by having unmeasured waterline length as it was clear the boats were permanently operating in displacement mode.  At the front of the boat this was achieved by having the ugly double knuckled bows.  At the back of the boat there wasn't much you could do.  As appendages (rudders keels etc) weren't included in the hull measurement the kiwis decided they would have a boat shaped doubler at the back of the boat to create unmeasured length.  The measurement committee deemed it legal as long as it only touched a certain amount of the hull.  The advantage was added waterline length.  The disadvantage was frictional drag from the gap/join between the hull and the hula and the added weight which was lost out of the ballast.  The only reason it was in anyway related to the other failures was that it took funds and focus away from other research.



#6 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:12 AM

Hula was relatively easy to understand.  Post '95 is had become increasingly clear that in the IACC equation there were major advantages to be gained by having unmeasured waterline length as it was clear the boats were permanently operating in displacement mode.  At the front of the boat this was achieved by having the ugly double knuckled bows.  At the back of the boat there wasn't much you could do.  As appendages (rudders keels etc) weren't included in the hull measurement the kiwis decided they would have a boat shaped doubler at the back of the boat to create unmeasured length.  The measurement committee deemed it legal as long as it only touched a certain amount of the hull.  The advantage was added waterline length.  The disadvantage was frictional drag from the gap/join between the hull and the hula and the added weight which was lost out of the ballast.  The only reason it was in anyway related to the other failures was that it took funds and focus away from other research.

in a nutshell.
Wasting money on a hula when rigs were compromised was the biggest cock up in that cup.

Coutts left and barker was supposed to be the man. Unfortunately Barker has learnt nothing from that cup defense.

Dalton had not even entered the AC att ths stage.

The first time TNZ sailed their boat in a breeze over 20 knots was in the AC. Until then they could not risk losing their on and only good racing mast. And did Barker once stand up and demand better, demand answers or demand a new back up mast.... No

Poor decisions and poor leadership led to a poor boat,poor design, poor gear and poor results.

The same thing happened 13 years on and the common theme.... Dean Barker!

#7 AustraliaII4Eva

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:00 PM

So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???

 

How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?

 

I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??



#8 AustraliaII4Eva

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:17 PM

Hula was relatively easy to understand.  Post '95 is had become increasingly clear that in the IACC equation there were major advantages to be gained by having unmeasured waterline length as it was clear the boats were permanently operating in displacement mode.  At the front of the boat this was achieved by having the ugly double knuckled bows.  At the back of the boat there wasn't much you could do.  As appendages (rudders keels etc) weren't included in the hull measurement the kiwis decided they would have a boat shaped doubler at the back of the boat to create unmeasured length.  The measurement committee deemed it legal as long as it only touched a certain amount of the hull.  The advantage was added waterline length.  The disadvantage was frictional drag from the gap/join between the hull and the hula and the added weight which was lost out of the ballast.  The only reason it was in anyway related to the other failures was that it took funds and focus away from other research.

frictional drag from the gap/join between the hull and the hula.......

I take it the water was coming in from this gap/join in the Hula Is that right.



#9 schakel

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:28 PM

The hula was an experiment

But later a hoax.

What I understood is that it was a plate under the transom that was meant to lead the streaming water up and so lengthen the waterline.

It didn't work out. Later on they used it in the psychological warfare.

"And at 8 knots our hula kicks in"  is what I remember.

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#10 nav

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:42 PM

The hull was watertight - the Hula an affixed appendage (think of a stub, with 'wing' extending radially), that effectively changed the shape of the hull but wasn't measured as hull. Water behind the hula could not enter the boat.

 

But water could come in over the side - and did, by the ton!



#11 cantp1

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:10 PM

So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???

 

How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?

 

I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??

 

No the water in the cockpit on NZL82 was just spray washing in on the lee-side. Either they had never sailed in that much breeze or never pushed the boat that hard with that much canvas - both options are ridiculous, of course. You see in race 2 and beyond they had little plastic splash screens taped on to the gunwhale. In any case, it was just the beginning of the comedy of errors that led to ETNZ's demise in 2003 (or were they just TNZ back then?).

As for NZL60 matchin up against 82, they may not have ever raced publicly. Or if they did, they were likely sand-bagging. Rod Davis wrote an article in his monthly Seahorse column about 'mind games and tactical diversions' in the AC game a couple of months ago. I forget if the example he mentioned was with Prada or TNZ but I remember him writing that they would sometimes enter 2 boats and let the older one beat the newer one. Which also might go to schakel's point about the Hula perhaps just being some kind of psychological spoof.

 

And keep in mind, Alinghi "knew" how fast 60 would have been....



#12 Foyle

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:15 PM

From what I have heard from an insider years ago:

 

The Hula was/is faster with its added water line length.  TNZ effectively lost '03 because they delayed on water launching/testing to hide the hula and prevent others reverse-engineering it.  Also Alinghis innovative square top sails conferred a significant advantage to them that TNZ weren't able to reverse engineer in time.

 

TNZ came close to sinking one of their boats (One Australia style) on a heavy weather day a couple of months before the match, this lead to a few vital testing weeks lost in the shed doing strengthening work, and a general feeling of nervousness/tentativeness about testing in stronger winds (couldn't afford more time lost to a disaster) that ultimately led to some of the reliability issues seen during the match.

 

There was also some late rulings from the measurers that required them to open the hula gap up by a few more mm to prevent any possibility of contact due to wave slamming or flexing, but with no actual proof it was necessary or that any such contact was happening - slowing TNZ down a bit.  This was probably a mistake on TNZ's part - they should have been able to successfully argue that in transient loading a water film would have prevented any contact.

 

The swamping issue was due to the short choppy waves caused by an enormous (and not seen in testing) spectator fleet, easily fixed overnight.

 

A jib clew fitting failed - first time that had been seen in several years of sailing/testing with same fitting, destroyed jib track as it failed - just bad luck.

 

Lightweight boom failed, because the sailors unilaterally decided to not use a sliding cylindrical sleeve around the tube of the boom at the rear designed to prevent mainsheet loads from crushing that tube - without consulting the guy who designed it.  Hadn't been a problem testing in lighter airs, but in heavy wind loaded up the boom tube was crushed.

 

Lightweight spinnaker pole failed - no issues during extensive testing, symptom of lack of testing in heavy winds.

 

Rig failed - an aluminium tip cup with an internal unseen crack in thread.  Could possibly have been seen if x-rayed every night (totally unrealistic) but external examination wouldn't have revealed it.  Partly bad luck, partly not enough testing time.  It was a lighter solution shaving off 5-10 kg aloft from the stainless steel used throughout testing, but couldn't use aluminium at high load for long periods due to fatigue issues so it was only used for a few days prior to the match in testing - and in essence any such short life item makes you vulnerable to unseen defects.

 

Speed-wise TNZ were probably pretty similar to Alinghi.  They lost it principally on reliability and possibly also on poorer sailing.  But the 5:0 result flattered Alinghi (they obviously deserved to win)



#13 Titan Uranus

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:19 PM

So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??


The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.

The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.

It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.

Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.

The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.

barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.

Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.

Get the picture?

#14 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:46 PM

I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??

As you are a newbie we will cut you some slack. Everyone else here knows that nothing that fucktard says is right.

#15 jc172528

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:22 PM

So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??


The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.

The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.

It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.

Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.

The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.

barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.

Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.

Get the picture?

 

 

I've sailed with Hamish and he's an incredible sailor and all round nice guy, at that time a bit out of his depth, probably a bit like you in the flying fifteen club events.



#16 Foyle

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:04 AM

So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??


The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.

The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.

It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.

Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.

The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.

barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.

Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.

Get the picture?

Wrong all over the place.

 

The hula was a big buoyant lump, containing no water, just a gap of a few mm in a flat plane between it and the hull (with a small drag penalty).  Attached to the hull all the way along a central zone where appendages were allowed to be attached to the hull.  Hulls weren't allowed any concavities in their surfaces.

 

The reliability issues and rig differences and brilliant Alinghi afterguard mean that we will never really know if it was a faster or slower hull design than SUI64, but at the time TNZ's analysis suggested it would be faster - and they still had the core (and obviously very competent)  elements of their previous design team (Drummond, Schnack, Holroyd, Claughton, Oliver), analysing and making those decisions.  They chose to go with the Hula even after they got to see SUI64 and the other competitors before building NZL81,82.

 

Reverse engineering square top sails is not small thing - it was a huge paradigm shift that would probably have required new design tools/methodologies, big VPP alterations and probably requiring changes in mast stiffness that would require a new mast to enact.  (It takes months to build a mast).   Possibly even moving the mast step,  as well as budget to build and time to test.  Something you as principle of a very budget and time constrained team wouldn't do until you were sure it was a winner.  Remember that Schnackenberg is one of the top dogs at North Sails - he knows the tech intimately, but they got caught with their pants down on that one (somewhat surprising as it was common windsurfer tech).  Possible that it wasn't spotted because it is something that works best with gusty conditions that computers don't model well, and because it seems a little counter-intuitive (more weight, and area up high is not obviously good when thinking about lead mines).

 

Their true mistake was not allowing enough testing time, bought on by nervousness over ability of billionaire funded teams to reverse engineer quickly (as we saw demonstrated in AC34, perhaps they didn't judge the timing much wrong either as apparently Alinghi did briefly experiment with their own retrofitted hula).



#17 ~Stingray~

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:18 AM

Didn't follow it in great detail but my lasting overall impression was that NZL 82 was optimized for lighter conditions than what happened, leading to many of the problems they ran into. But Alinghi was going to be very hard to beat no matter what. The Hula was possibly clever but still just a longshot gamble that probably played little part overall, the result would have been the same even in the light because the hula's effect was not enough.

I did always wonder, though, about if the Hula was legal even if in its flexing it did not touch the hull.

I imagined that, intentionally or not, the water between the Hula and the hull might not be being squeezed, being 'squirted' from fore to aft, during the flexing.

It's at least an interesting concept, one that might even benefit ocean transport if the power of swells could be intentionally directed that way, perhaps by the use of a crude valve effect for amplification.

#18 jc172528

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:26 AM

 

So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??


The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.

The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.

It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.

Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.

The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.

barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.

Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.

Get the picture?

Wrong all over the place.

 

The hula was a big buoyant lump, containing no water, just a gap of a few mm in a flat plane between it and the hull (with a small drag penalty).  Attached to the hull all the way along a central zone where appendages were allowed to be attached to the hull.  Hulls weren't allowed any concavities in their surfaces.

 

The reliability issues and rig differences and brilliant Alinghi afterguard mean that we will never really know if it was a faster or slower hull design than SUI64, but at the time TNZ's analysis suggested it would be faster - and they still had the core (and obviously very competent)  elements of their previous design team (Drummond, Schnack, Holroyd, Claughton, Oliver), analysing and making those decisions.  They chose to go with the Hula even after they got to see SUI64 and the other competitors before building NZL81,82.

 

Reverse engineering square top sails is not small thing - it was a huge paradigm shift that would probably have required new design tools/methodologies, big VPP alterations and probably requiring changes in mast stiffness that would require a new mast to enact.  (It takes months to build a mast).   Possibly even moving the mast step,  as well as budget to build and time to test.  Something you as principle of a very budget and time constrained team wouldn't do until you were sure it was a winner.  Remember that Schnackenberg is one of the top dogs at North Sails - he knows the tech intimately, but they got caught with their pants down on that one (somewhat surprising as it was common windsurfer tech).  Possible that it wasn't spotted because it is something that works best with gusty conditions that computers don't model well, and because it seems a little counter-intuitive (more weight, and area up high is not obviously good when thinking about lead mines).

 

Their true mistake was not allowing enough testing time, bought on by nervousness over ability of billionaire funded teams to reverse engineer quickly (as we saw demonstrated in AC34, perhaps they didn't judge the timing much wrong either as apparently Alinghi did briefly experiment with their own retrofitted hula).

 

To reduce it to its absolute basics, TNZ thought the young inexperience guys (the B team) couldn't foot to with the older experienced guns (the A team).

Consequently the team tried to neutralise this advantage by designing/building something at the extreme edge.

Barker and Co were given little input into the design and were given something that wasn't even remotely competitive from day 1.

Summed up best by Butterballs on the reveal day 'this is a designers boat'. 



#19 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:08 AM


So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??


The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.
The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.
It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.
Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.
The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.
barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.
Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.
Get the picture?
 
 
I've sailed with Hamish and he's an incredible sailor and all round nice guy, at that time a bit out of his depth, probably a bit like you in the flying fifteen club events.

Never sailed a flying fifteen so I could not comment.

And you have not sailed with hamish! Unless you are craig monk, Carl, or he sailed his laser two up.

I've been told you have fucked around with a yellow duck in your bath... and quite competently....according to Vij..

#20 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:19 AM


So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??


The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.
The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.
It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.
Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.
The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.
barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.
Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.
Get the picture?
Wrong all over the place.
 
The hula was a big buoyant lump, containing no water, just a gap of a few mm in a flat plane between it and the hull (with a small drag penalty).  Attached to the hull all the way along a central zone where appendages were allowed to be attached to the hull.  Hulls weren't allowed any concavities in their surfaces.
 
The reliability issues and rig differences and brilliant Alinghi afterguard mean that we will never really know if it was a faster or slower hull design than SUI64, but at the time TNZ's analysis suggested it would be faster - and they still had the core (and obviously very competent)  elements of their previous design team (Drummond, Schnack, Holroyd, Claughton, Oliver), analysing and making those decisions.  They chose to go with the Hula even after they got to see SUI64 and the other competitors before building NZL81,82.
 
Reverse engineering square top sails is not small thing - it was a huge paradigm shift that would probably have required new design tools/methodologies, big VPP alterations and probably requiring changes in mast stiffness that would require a new mast to enact.  (It takes months to build a mast).   Possibly even moving the mast step,  as well as budget to build and time to test.  Something you as principle of a very budget and time constrained team wouldn't do until you were sure it was a winner.  Remember that Schnackenberg is one of the top dogs at North Sails - he knows the tech intimately, but they got caught with their pants down on that one (somewhat surprising as it was common windsurfer tech).  Possible that it wasn't spotted because it is something that works best with gusty conditions that computers don't model well, and because it seems a little counter-intuitive (more weight, and area up high is not obviously good when thinking about lead mines).
 
Their true mistake was not allowing enough testing time, bought on by nervousness over ability of billionaire funded teams to reverse engineer quickly (as we saw demonstrated in AC34, perhaps they didn't judge the timing much wrong either as apparently Alinghi did briefly experiment with their own retrofitted hula).

Agree with most if your points but the cavity between the hula and the hull, did I hold a lot of disturbed water. Not the Hula itself. That small gap was small at the hull interface but I believe it held between 12-18 litres/kg.

Barker as skipper and part of the decision making team, had a chance to say something like this...

Let not fuck around with trick kit (hula) that is not proven. Let stick to the basics and ensure our package is at least even!

Or lets not waste the little money we have on a chance (hula) and invest in masts and sails and booms and a dry cockpit...

Coutts would have had a strong say on things like that. Barker was weak and still is.

Leadership drives the team and controlls the mavericks with risky ideas and the conservatives with "down the middle thinking" Barker snacks and co took a flyer/risk.

#21 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 02:24 AM



 



So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??

The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.
The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.
It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.
Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.
The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.
barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.
Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.
Get the picture?
Wrong all over the place.
 
The hula was a big buoyant lump, containing no water, just a gap of a few mm in a flat plane between it and the hull (with a small drag penalty).  Attached to the hull all the way along a central zone where appendages were allowed to be attached to the hull.  Hulls weren't allowed any concavities in their surfaces.
 
The reliability issues and rig differences and brilliant Alinghi afterguard mean that we will never really know if it was a faster or slower hull design than SUI64, but at the time TNZ's analysis suggested it would be faster - and they still had the core (and obviously very competent)  elements of their previous design team (Drummond, Schnack, Holroyd, Claughton, Oliver), analysing and making those decisions.  They chose to go with the Hula even after they got to see SUI64 and the other competitors before building NZL81,82.
 
Reverse engineering square top sails is not small thing - it was a huge paradigm shift that would probably have required new design tools/methodologies, big VPP alterations and probably requiring changes in mast stiffness that would require a new mast to enact.  (It takes months to build a mast).   Possibly even moving the mast step,  as well as budget to build and time to test.  Something you as principle of a very budget and time constrained team wouldn't do until you were sure it was a winner.  Remember that Schnackenberg is one of the top dogs at North Sails - he knows the tech intimately, but they got caught with their pants down on that one (somewhat surprising as it was common windsurfer tech).  Possible that it wasn't spotted because it is something that works best with gusty conditions that computers don't model well, and because it seems a little counter-intuitive (more weight, and area up high is not obviously good when thinking about lead mines).
 
Their true mistake was not allowing enough testing time, bought on by nervousness over ability of billionaire funded teams to reverse engineer quickly (as we saw demonstrated in AC34, perhaps they didn't judge the timing much wrong either as apparently Alinghi did briefly experiment with their own retrofitted hula).
 
To reduce it to its absolute basics, TNZ thought the young inexperience guys (the B team) couldn't foot to with the older experienced guns (the A team).
Consequently the team tried to neutralise this advantage by designing/building something at the extreme edge.
Barker and Co were given little input into the design and were given something that wasn't even remotely competitive from day 1.
Summed up best by Butterballs on the reveal day 'this is a designers boat'. 
I call bullshit on that peice of innuendo.

Who in TNZ? Told the team you are not good enough and we will have to go with design extremes/mavericks concepts to win?

what crap. If the crew are no good no amount of Hulas will make them win.

Truth is the crew were good, the skipper was a poor leader, and the collective teams management decision to go with Hula,s took their eye of the important stuff.

I am sure half your posts are just made up to make you look like you might actually know something.

#22 Foyle

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 03:48 AM


Truth is the crew were good, the skipper was a poor leader, and the collective teams management decision to go with Hula,s took their eye of the important stuff.

I am sure half your posts are just made up to make you look like you might actually know something.

Almost no chance that by sticking to a conventional design they would come up with something faster than 8-10 other challenger syndicates with 3-4? billionaires and huge budgets.  They had to take the gamble on a big gain just like the knuckle bow in NZL60 (2000) because otherwise they could only hope to have a mid-field boat that would always lose against the LV winner.  As it was SUI64 was damned fast and lost only 1 race after the start of the LV quarterfinals.  The Hula gave TNZ at least a fighting chance they wouldn't have otherwise have had.

 

They came out looking bad with unreliability, but really they didn't make many fuck-ups that you could definitely say were mistakes without the benefit of hindsight (probably untried aluminium tip cups excepted).  Without the series of gear failures and with more heavy weather testing they might even have been able to win it.  

 

TNZ retired twice, nearly took race 2, trailed to a 23s loss in race 3, broke a pole in race 5 to lose by 44s with their 'B' rig.  Boatspeed wise it was a lot tighter than the 5:0 result indicated.  And given the brilliance of Coutts/Butterworth I wouldn't be certain that SUI64 was an inherently faster boat than a reliable NZL82 would have been.



#23 rule69

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 04:59 AM

Didn't follow it in great detail but my lasting overall impression was that NZL 82 was optimized for lighter conditions than what happened, leading to many of the problems they ran into.

 

IIRC (I was there but it seems long ago) they were beaten pretty soundly in the light stuff early. Then there were a lot of wx delays. Then they fell apart in the heavy stuff. I don't think they had a speed advantage in any conditions.



#24 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 05:11 AM


Truth is the crew were good, the skipper was a poor leader, and the collective teams management decision to go with Hula,s took their eye of the important stuff.
I am sure half your posts are just made up to make you look like you might actually know something.

Almost no chance that by sticking to a conventional design they would come up with something faster than 8-10 other challenger syndicates with 3-4? billionaires and huge budgets.  They had to take the gamble on a big gain just like the knuckle bow in NZL60 (2000) because otherwise they could only hope to have a mid-field boat that would always lose against the LV winner.  As it was SUI64 was damned fast and lost only 1 race after the start of the LV quarterfinals.  The Hula gave TNZ at least a fighting chance they wouldn't have otherwise have had.
 
They came out looking bad with unreliability, but really they didn't make many fuck-ups that you could definitely say were mistakes without the benefit of hindsight (probably untried aluminium tip cups excepted).  Without the series of gear failures and with more heavy weather testing they might even have been able to win it.  
 
TNZ retired twice, nearly took race 2, trailed to a 23s loss in race 3, broke a pole in race 5 to lose by 44s with their 'B' rig.  Boatspeed wise it was a lot tighter than the 5:0 result indicated.  And given the brilliance of Coutts/Butterworth I wouldn't be certain that SUI64 was an inherently faster boat than a reliable NZL82 would have been.

Would agree if they had more money and a better trial boat scenario. But TNZ had a fiscal problem and would have been better served getting a reliable and equal boat and improve the skill of the crew.

Even better would have been ....

1. Better fund raising by Barker and Snacks to buy the kit needed

2. A better helmsman.

3. A bit of trialing of their boat in a breeze.

4. Designers who stuck to the basic stuff like good design, dry cockpit, stronger rig.

#25 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 05:17 AM

Didn't follow it in great detail but my lasting overall impression was that NZL 82 was optimized for lighter conditions than what happened, leading to many of the problems they ran into.

 
IIRC (I was there but it seems long ago) they were beaten pretty soundly in the light stuff early. Then there were a lot of wx delays. Then they fell apart in the heavy stuff. I don't think they had a speed advantage in any conditions.

Hard to know. They had periods where they would foot it. A mate of mine on the Alingi crew thought they were comparable between disasters and poor tactical choices. He also said they feared Pace ahead of Barker. Barker was very vulnerable and could not make the big calls when needed.

#26 vij

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:57 AM

 

 


So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??


The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.
The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.
It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.
Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.
The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.
barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.
Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.
Get the picture?
 
 
I've sailed with Hamish and he's an incredible sailor and all round nice guy, at that time a bit out of his depth, probably a bit like you in the flying fifteen club events.

Never sailed a flying fifteen so I could not comment.

And you have not sailed with hamish! Unless you are craig monk, Carl, or he sailed his laser two up.

I've been told you have fucked around with a yellow duck in your bath... and quite competently....according to Vij..

 

 

What a surprise. Suddenly my name pops up from no were. Yet another lie just like all your other posts. It is amazing how things just pops up in fantasy land in your head. What medication are you on?



#27 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:15 AM


 


 



So did this hula break letting in the water in Race 1?? Ive never read why there was water coming in and why???
 
How did NZL-82 measure up to NZL-60 which had successfully defended the Cup in 2000?
 
I take it with limited resources this led to the Mast breaking as Sir Clean said they only had 1 Good Mast is that right??


The hula was a appendage that fitted flush with the hull with a gap around it perimeter. It is attached within its enclosure and allows water to flow in the enclosure and over its exterior surface. The hula was not allowed to touch the surrounding hull.
The theory is explained above. But the supposed increase in waterline length was negated by extra friction and the weight of water it carried.
It was a dud. As was the boom that the crew tampered with and the mast.
Again the kiwis fucked around with small stuff and "flights of fancy" in order to boost their insecurities! (Sailing skill, internal conflict.) and missed the big picture stuff like square top mainsails.
The other issue they had was a certain Frenchman/backup helmsman "Bertrand Pace" and Hamish pepper making Barkerlook like a fool.
barker stayed on. The two better sailors left... sounds familiar?.... well yes.... the next cup had Barker teamed with Ainslie. Ainslie was the better sailor. But Barker helmed and Ainslie left.
Fast forward to San Fran.... no back up helmsman. Barker in control 100%. Another pasting.
Get the picture?
 
 
I've sailed with Hamish and he's an incredible sailor and all round nice guy, at that time a bit out of his depth, probably a bit like you in the flying fifteen club events.

Never sailed a flying fifteen so I could not comment.
And you have not sailed with hamish! Unless you are craig monk, Carl, or he sailed his laser two up.
I've been told you have fucked around with a yellow duck in your bath... and quite competently....according to Vij..
 
 
What a surprise. Suddenly my name pops up from no were. Yet another lie just like all your other posts. It is amazing how things just pops up in fantasy land in your head. What medication are you on?

Vij! that was an obvious joke. No worse than you rude posts to me. So harden up!

Just giving them a bit of their own medicine.

#28 rule69

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:18 AM

 

Didn't follow it in great detail but my lasting overall impression was that NZL 82 was optimized for lighter conditions than what happened, leading to many of the problems they ran into.

 
IIRC (I was there but it seems long ago) they were beaten pretty soundly in the light stuff early. Then there were a lot of wx delays. Then they fell apart in the heavy stuff. I don't think they had a speed advantage in any conditions.

Hard to know. They had periods where they would foot it. A mate of mine on the Alingi crew thought they were comparable between disasters and poor tactical choices. He also said they feared Pace ahead of Barker. Barker was very vulnerable and could not make the big calls when needed.

Indeed, with so many things not quite firing it is hard to know for sure. At times in some of the races the boats looked to be nearly the same pace. But I don't recall them ever making a significant gain when both boats were together and in clear air. The team as a whole proved slower in all conditions.



#29 Titan Uranus

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:40 AM


 


Didn't follow it in great detail but my lasting overall impression was that NZL 82 was optimized for lighter conditions than what happened, leading to many of the problems they ran into.

 
IIRC (I was there but it seems long ago) they were beaten pretty soundly in the light stuff early. Then there were a lot of wx delays. Then they fell apart in the heavy stuff. I don't think they had a speed advantage in any conditions.

Hard to know. They had periods where they would foot it. A mate of mine on the Alingi crew thought they were comparable between disasters and poor tactical choices. He also said they feared Pace ahead of Barker. Barker was very vulnerable and could not make the big calls when needed.
Indeed, with so many things not quite firing it is hard to know for sure. At times in some of the races the boats looked to be nearly the same pace. But I don't recall them ever making a significant gain when both boats were together and in clear air. The team as a whole proved slower in all conditions.

The start and first beat tactics of Russ and Brad was a big advantage.

TNZ never had the confidence to win with a hula that produced no speed advantage.

The last AC has shown that they have learnt nothing. They came up with foiling nut never kept on developing the control of it.

They changed nothing in the foil dept the whole regatta. Oracle did.

#30 Clipper

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:35 PM

Never sailed a flying fifteen so I could not comment.

 

You lying piece of shit



#31 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:50 PM

 

 


 


Didn't follow it in great detail but my lasting overall impression was that NZL 82 was optimized for lighter conditions than what happened, leading to many of the problems they ran into.

 
IIRC (I was there but it seems long ago) they were beaten pretty soundly in the light stuff early. Then there were a lot of wx delays. Then they fell apart in the heavy stuff. I don't think they had a speed advantage in any conditions.

Hard to know. They had periods where they would foot it. A mate of mine on the Alingi crew thought they were comparable between disasters and poor tactical choices. He also said they feared Pace ahead of Barker. Barker was very vulnerable and could not make the big calls when needed.
Indeed, with so many things not quite firing it is hard to know for sure. At times in some of the races the boats looked to be nearly the same pace. But I don't recall them ever making a significant gain when both boats were together and in clear air. The team as a whole proved slower in all conditions.

The start and first beat tactics of Russ and Brad was a big advantage.

TNZ never had the confidence to win with a hula that produced no speed advantage.

The last AC has shown that they have learnt nothing. They came up with foiling nut never kept on developing the control of it.

They changed nothing in the foil dept the whole regatta. Oracle did.

What is a 'foiling nut' ? Little wonder you are unemployed!



#32 WetHog

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:11 AM

TNZ came close to sinking one of their boats (One Australia style) on a heavy weather day a couple of months before the match, this lead to a few vital testing weeks lost in the shed doing strengthening work, and a general feeling of nervousness/tentativeness about testing in stronger winds (couldn't afford more time lost to a disaster) that ultimately led to some of the reliability issues seen during the match.

 

 

Like this?

 

fcifx4.jpg

 

Very interesting information.  It was said TNZ suffered a serious failure during training, and confidence in both boats went down leading up to the Cup match, but nothing specific.  Can you elaborate on your "One Australia style" comment?  How about pictures?  Wish someone would write a book about the behind the scenes drama from cycle to cycle.  I love this shit.

 

WetHog   :ph34r:



#33 Titan Uranus

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:20 AM

Never sailed a flying fifteen so I could not comment.

 
You lying piece of shit

Another Bloody Aussie mate of Lifebuoy 15...

How was the shit lying clipper? He he

Clipper needs a spell check too!

#34 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 01:58 AM

Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mother’s spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegan’s turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....

#35 xyz10000

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:04 AM

Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mother’s spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegan’s turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....

Damn i just wet my pants laughing.



#36 Foyle

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:51 AM

TNZ came close to sinking one of their boats (One Australia style) on a heavy weather day a couple of months before the match, this lead to a few vital testing weeks lost in the shed doing strengthening work, and a general feeling of nervousness/tentativeness about testing in stronger winds (couldn't afford more time lost to a disaster) that ultimately led to some of the reliability issues seen during the match.

 

 

Like this?

 

fcifx4.jpg

 

Very interesting information.  It was said TNZ suffered a serious failure during training, and confidence in both boats went down leading up to the Cup match, but nothing specific.  Can you elaborate on your "One Australia style" comment?  How about pictures?  Wish someone would write a book about the behind the scenes drama from cycle to cycle.  I love this shit.

 

WetHog   :ph34r:

From what I heard something like that, but not nearly so far progressed, just a bang and some obvious delamination.  At which point they dropped all sails, fitted some floats to the boat and picked their way back to base as carefully as possible.  Amazed that there isn't more detail revealed on this after 11 years - can't see what would be gained by not being open about it.  I think a lot of people would be interested, and from what I have heard it does not cast a poor light on anyone in TNZ



#37 Titan Uranus

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:33 AM

Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mother’s spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegan’s turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....

Damn i just wet my pants laughing.
You should get that checked out.

Maybe some nappies should fix it.

Actually it is quite funny. Why?...

It just proves what this lifebouy guy thinks about when in front of his computer.

It appears his imagination may be a reflection of his reality.

It would be less funny if he had one paragraph correct.

Nice work their lifebouy. You obviously have plenty of time on your hands and lifelong experiences that help you with that kind of stuff.

I do sense that this graham guy has certainly rattled your cage for you to think I am he and for you to stalk my every post.

Even funnier is the fact that this is the first post of yours I have read in weeks. So all your work and time is wasted on yourself and a couple of weirdo Aussie mates.

Do carry on. And when your 60 you can look back with pride at your excellent time spent here.

Obviously you work is very quite at present.

#38 maxmini

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 06:41 PM


TNZ came close to sinking one of their boats (One Australia style) on a heavy weather day a couple of months before the match, this lead to a few vital testing weeks lost in the shed doing strengthening work, and a general feeling of nervousness/tentativeness about testing in stronger winds (couldn't afford more time lost to a disaster) that ultimately led to some of the reliability issues seen during the match.

 
 
Like this?
 
fcifx4.jpg
 
Very interesting information.  It was said TNZ suffered a serious failure during training, and confidence in both boats went down leading up to the Cup match, but nothing specific.  Can you elaborate on your "One Australia style" comment?  How about pictures?  Wish someone would write a book about the behind the scenes drama from cycle to cycle.  I love this shit.
 
WetHog   :ph34r:
From what I heard something like that, but not nearly so far progressed, just a bang and some obvious delamination.  At which point they dropped all sails, fitted some floats to the boat and picked their way back to base as carefully as possible.  Amazed that there isn't more detail revealed on this after 11 years - can't see what would be gained by not being open about it.  I think a lot of people would be interested, and from what I have heard it does not cast a poor light on anyone in TNZ

I might be wrong but it does lookalike the forstay is a bit loose. :)

#39 Bill R

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:13 PM

yes your right it was deliberately done in an attempt to improve the foresail shape , I believe they were also experimenting with deck sweeping booms at the time, similar idea to a finn or Europe dinghy. 



#40 Titan Uranus

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:21 PM

Adjustable waterline length was quite a fad during that period.

Along with disposable keels.

#41 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:51 PM

Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mother’s spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegan’s turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....

Damn i just wet my pants laughing.
You should get that checked out.
Maybe some nappies should fix it.
Actually it is quite funny. Why?...
It just proves what this lifebouy guy thinks about when in front of his computer.
It appears his imagination may be a reflection of his reality.
It would be less funny if he had one paragraph correct.
Nice work their lifebouy. You obviously have plenty of time on your hands and lifelong experiences that help you with that kind of stuff.
I do sense that this graham guy has certainly rattled your cage for you to think I am he and for you to stalk my every post.
Even funnier is the fact that this is the first post of yours I have read in weeks. So all your work and time is wasted on yourself and a couple of weirdo Aussie mates.
Do carry on. And when your 60 you can look back with pride at your excellent time spent here.
Obviously you work is very quite at present.
You just keep giving. So you have no idea who this 'Graham guy' is yet every paragraph I wrote about him is wrong?
You can't make this shit up. You really can't.

#42 cosmicsedso

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:37 PM

 

Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mother’s spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegan’s turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....

Damn i just wet my pants laughing.
You should get that checked out.

Maybe some nappies should fix it.

Actually it is quite funny. Why?...

It just proves what this lifebouy guy thinks about when in front of his computer.

It appears his imagination may be a reflection of his reality.

It would be less funny if he had one paragraph correct.

Nice work their lifebouy. You obviously have plenty of time on your hands and lifelong experiences that help you with that kind of stuff.

I do sense that this graham guy has certainly rattled your cage for you to think I am he and for you to stalk my every post.

Even funnier is the fact that this is the first post of yours I have read in weeks. So all your work and time is wasted on yourself and a couple of weirdo Aussie mates.

Do carry on. And when your 60 you can look back with pride at your excellent time spent here.

Obviously you work is very quite at present.

Why is it that you need to turn any thread that mentions NZL into a "Dean Barker Hate-athon"?

I guess he is also responsible for global warming?

 

It's quite quiet during the recess between AC's isn't it?



#43 Titan Uranus

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:21 PM

Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mother’s spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegan’s turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....

Damn i just wet my pants laughing.
You should get that checked out.
Maybe some nappies should fix it.
Actually it is quite funny. Why?...
It just proves what this lifebouy guy thinks about when in front of his computer.
It appears his imagination may be a reflection of his reality.
It would be less funny if he had one paragraph correct.
Nice work their lifebouy. You obviously have plenty of time on your hands and lifelong experiences that help you with that kind of stuff.
I do sense that this graham guy has certainly rattled your cage for you to think I am he and for you to stalk my every post.
Even funnier is the fact that this is the first post of yours I have read in weeks. So all your work and time is wasted on yourself and a couple of weirdo Aussie mates.
Do carry on. And when your 60 you can look back with pride at your excellent time spent here.
Obviously you work is very quite at present.
You just keep giving. So you have no idea who this 'Graham guy' is yet every paragraph I wrote about him is wrong?
You can't make this shit up. You really can't.

Mikey buoy. I had to look and viola! ... I was not dissapointed.

You are obviously challenged in the "grey matter" dept.

I will spell it slowly for you...

Every thing you right about me is wrong!

Comprehend now!

Enjoy :-)

#44 Titan Uranus

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:23 PM


 


Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mother’s spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegan’s turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....

Damn i just wet my pants laughing.
You should get that checked out.
Maybe some nappies should fix it.
Actually it is quite funny. Why?...
It just proves what this lifebouy guy thinks about when in front of his computer.
It appears his imagination may be a reflection of his reality.
It would be less funny if he had one paragraph correct.
Nice work their lifebouy. You obviously have plenty of time on your hands and lifelong experiences that help you with that kind of stuff.
I do sense that this graham guy has certainly rattled your cage for you to think I am he and for you to stalk my every post.
Even funnier is the fact that this is the first post of yours I have read in weeks. So all your work and time is wasted on yourself and a couple of weirdo Aussie mates.
Do carry on. And when your 60 you can look back with pride at your excellent time spent here.
Obviously you work is very quite at present.
Why is it that you need to turn any thread that mentions NZL into a "Dean Barker Hate-athon"?
I guess he is also responsible for global warming?
 
It's quite quiet during the recess between AC's isn't it?

I like to think of it as a "factathon"

Just putting the record straight for all the myopic Barker lovers who ranted on for months about how good this guy was!

Yet his record and the facts I present show otherwise.

#45 umpire

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 05:44 PM


Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mothers spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegans turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....

Damn i just wet my pants laughing.
You should get that checked out.
Maybe some nappies should fix it.
Actually it is quite funny. Why?...
It just proves what this lifebouy guy thinks about when in front of his computer.
It appears his imagination may be a reflection of his reality.
It would be less funny if he had one paragraph correct.
Nice work their lifebouy. You obviously have plenty of time on your hands and lifelong experiences that help you with that kind of stuff.
I do sense that this graham guy has certainly rattled your cage for you to think I am he and for you to stalk my every post.
Even funnier is the fact that this is the first post of yours I have read in weeks. So all your work and time is wasted on yourself and a couple of weirdo Aussie mates.
Do carry on. And when your 60 you can look back with pride at your excellent time spent here.
Obviously you work is very quite at present.
You just keep giving. So you have no idea who this 'Graham guy' is yet every paragraph I wrote about him is wrong?
You can't make this shit up. You really can't.
Mikey buoy. I had to look and viola! ... I was not dissapointed.

You are obviously challenged in the "grey matter" dept.

I will spell it slowly for you...

Every thing you right about me is wrong!

Comprehend now!

Enjoy :-)
Surely you mean ' write' about you, as opposed to right. You certainly are the biggest twat on this site and that has taken some doing to gain that accolade.

#46 ~HHN92~

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:08 PM

 

 


TNZ came close to sinking one of their boats (One Australia style) on a heavy weather day a couple of months before the match, this lead to a few vital testing weeks lost in the shed doing strengthening work, and a general feeling of nervousness/tentativeness about testing in stronger winds (couldn't afford more time lost to a disaster) that ultimately led to some of the reliability issues seen during the match.

 
 
Like this?
 
fcifx4.jpg
 
Very interesting information.  It was said TNZ suffered a serious failure during training, and confidence in both boats went down leading up to the Cup match, but nothing specific.  Can you elaborate on your "One Australia style" comment?  How about pictures?  Wish someone would write a book about the behind the scenes drama from cycle to cycle.  I love this shit.
 
WetHog   :ph34r:
From what I heard something like that, but not nearly so far progressed, just a bang and some obvious delamination.  At which point they dropped all sails, fitted some floats to the boat and picked their way back to base as carefully as possible.  Amazed that there isn't more detail revealed on this after 11 years - can't see what would be gained by not being open about it.  I think a lot of people would be interested, and from what I have heard it does not cast a poor light on anyone in TNZ

I might be wrong but it does lookalike the forstay is a bit loose. :)

 

Good thing the boom was the right length, jammed in the right spot, was strong enough and did not drive iteslf through the mast. I wonder how many tons of compression were in that thing? I would not have been standing next to it!



#47 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:59 PM


Mikey buoy. I had to look and viola! ... I was not dissapointed.
You are obviously challenged in the "grey matter" dept.
I will spell it slowly for you...
Every thing you right about me is wrong!
Comprehend now!
Enjoy :-)


Spelling it slowly didn't help you Graham. You are still 'dissapointed'.
All packed for your little holiday in Noosa?
NTTIAWWT.

#48 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 11:09 PM

 I had to look...

Well we know you are 'curious' mate.

 What do you think about this...

 

rs_634x1024-140410203933-634.Kate-Middle

 

Deano mixing with Royalty.

Not to worry dickbreath, you will be spending some time with a few Queens yourself up in Noosa next week.



#49 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 12:53 AM

It's wrong to right it write :)



#50 Titan Uranus

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 03:00 AM

 I had to look...

Well we know you are 'curious' mate.
 What do you think about this...
 
rs_634x1024-140410203933-634.Kate-Middle
 
Deano mixing with Royalty.
Not to worry dickbreath, you will be spending some time with a few Queens yourself up in Noosa next week.


Mike, thanks for that.

A picture speaks a thousand words...

1 "a broken man with a winning woman"
2 "a change of skipper and ETNZ start winning!"
3 "Now Dean is you do this the boat will go faster!"... "thanks Maam, I never knew that."
4 " Dean don't look so glum!" You will win like this one day.

Michael, how do you come to the conclusion Noosa is full of gays? Is this from personal experience?.

Fly into Brisbane then on to maroochydore and Noosa.

We could catch up for a cuppa tea and a chat mate.

#51 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 05:55 AM

We could catch up for a cuppa tea and a chat mate.

I would rather poke myself in the eye with a burning stick.



#52 Titan Uranus

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 06:16 AM


We could catch up for a cuppa tea and a chat mate.

I would rather poke myself in the eye with a burning Dick.
There ya go mike. Since your fascinated with gays among other things, I fixed your post to make it reflect your true nature.

Tick tick tick...

#53 Rushman

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 07:37 AM

I know it is just a train wreck but for some reason I keep reading this crap

#54 Rennmaus

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:08 AM

(...)
 Deano mixing with Royalty.
(...)

So much for the rift between GD and DB - like so much hereabouts and in the NZL media it was pure BS. Haven't seen DB so relaxed and happy since... well, you know. GD either, royal racing seems to be much fun :-).

http://www.3news.co....17/Default.aspx

DB's view: http://www.kiwiyacht...uke-and-duchess

#55 fng

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:18 AM

Having been inside the compound for most of that campaign, I would say that foyle has got the twisted story the closest. not accurate but close.

and just remember sir clean seems to have a giant beef against DB and co so I would take anything he has to say with caution.

If I Sir C is who many think he is I'm amazed he remembers anything correctly after the tragic boom incident, if he's not ? well let the games continue



#56 pusslicker

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 12:35 PM

 I had to look...

Well we know you are 'curious' mate.

 What do you think about this...

 

rs_634x1024-140410203933-634.Kate-Middle

 

Deano mixing with Royalty.

Not to worry dickbreath, you will be spending some time with a few Queens yourself up in Noosa next week.

Sorry to drift away from the homophobia, but does anybody know why TNZ has JPN-41 and GER-68 for their training boats?



#57 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 07:34 PM


We could catch up for a cuppa tea and a chat mate.

I would rather poke myself in the eye with a burning Dick.
There ya go mike. Since your fascinated with gays among other things, I fixed your post to make it reflect your true nature.
Tick tick tick...
What ever floats your boat Graham. I thought you had me on ignore?

#58 Sailbydate

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:21 PM

 

 I had to look...

Well we know you are 'curious' mate.

 What do you think about this...

 

rs_634x1024-140410203933-634.Kate-Middle

 

Deano mixing with Royalty.

Not to worry dickbreath, you will be spending some time with a few Queens yourself up in Noosa next week.

Sorry to drift away from the homophobia, but does anybody know why TNZ has JPN-41 and GER-68 for their training boats?

Training boats? Yeah, right.

 

They take fare-paying passengers for sailing jaunts around the harbour.

 

See: http://www.exploregr...-race-auckland/



#59 aldo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:55 AM

Is that a wad of cash in her back pocket to pay for the 3hr tour.



#60 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:15 AM

Is that a wad of cash in her back pocket to pay for the 3hr tour.


She is just pleased to meet Deano.

#61 pusslicker

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:41 AM

 

 

 I had to look...

Well we know you are 'curious' mate.

 What do you think about this...

 

rs_634x1024-140410203933-634.Kate-Middle

 

Deano mixing with Royalty.

Not to worry dickbreath, you will be spending some time with a few Queens yourself up in Noosa next week.

Sorry to drift away from the homophobia, but does anybody know why TNZ has JPN-41 and GER-68 for their training boats?

Training boats? Yeah, right.

 

They take fare-paying passengers for sailing jaunts around the harbour.

 

See: http://www.exploregr...-race-auckland/

Oh I see. The cupinfo.com article mentioned that GER-68 was used as a training boat by ENTZ for '07. That seemed strange. Thanks.



#62 Rushman

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:07 AM

Second hand sails would be my guess

#63 Trafficker

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:02 PM

 

 

 

 I had to look...

Well we know you are 'curious' mate.

 What do you think about this...

 

rs_634x1024-140410203933-634.Kate-Middle

 

Deano mixing with Royalty.

Not to worry dickbreath, you will be spending some time with a few Queens yourself up in Noosa next week.

Sorry to drift away from the homophobia, but does anybody know why TNZ has JPN-41 and GER-68 for their training boats?

Training boats? Yeah, right.

 

They take fare-paying passengers for sailing jaunts around the harbour.

 

See: http://www.exploregr...-race-auckland/

Oh I see. The cupinfo.com article mentioned that GER-68 was used as a training boat by ENTZ for '07. That seemed strange. Thanks.

GER-68 was finished by TeamNZ to V5 of the IACC rule to compare to NZL-81/82 (with Hulas), as Hulas (Bustles) were banned under V5.  I vaguely recall that GER-68 was closer to SUI-64 in hull shape, which was important to understand in preparation for 2007 AC.



#64 Titan Uranus

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:54 PM

Having been inside the compound for most of that campaign, I would say that foyle has got the twisted story the closest. not accurate but close.
and just remember sir clean seems to have a giant beef against DB and co so I would take anything he has to say with caution.
If I Sir C is who many think he is I'm amazed he remembers anything correctly after the tragic boom incident, if he's not ? well let the games continue


FNG, are you talking Hula detail of Campaign detail mentioned above.

Why would I not remember anything after TNZ broke its boom?

By the way. I don't have a beef with Barker. I (#and many others)just want the other and true side of the story told to put a perspective on the months of spin and bullshit that came from certain members here.

They had their say for 12 months. And were mostly wrong ( when they had a large throat impediment) and now they go all cry baby when they get pulled up on their bullshit.

#65 xyz10000

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:02 PM

Having been inside the compound for most of that campaign, I would say that foyle has got the twisted story the closest. not accurate but close.
and just remember sir clean seems to have a giant beef against DB and co so I would take anything he has to say with caution.
If I Sir C is who many think he is I'm amazed he remembers anything correctly after the tragic boom incident, if he's not ? well let the games continue


FNG, are you talking Hula detail of Campaign detail mentioned above.

Why would I not remember anything after TNZ broke its boom?

By the way. I don't have a beef with Barker. I (#and many others)just want the other and true side of the story told to put a perspective on the months of spin and bullshit that came from certain members here.

They had their say for 12 months. And were mostly wrong ( when they had a large throat impediment) and now they go all cry baby when they get pulled up on their bullshit.

You don't have a beef with Barker. You are a funny guy. Thats all you go on about over and over and over. 



#66 Finnfart

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:54 AM

 

 

 I had to look...

Well we know you are 'curious' mate.

 What do you think about this...

 

rs_634x1024-140410203933-634.Kate-Middle

 

Deano mixing with Royalty.

Not to worry dickbreath, you will be spending some time with a few Queens yourself up in Noosa next week.

Sorry to drift away from the homophobia, but does anybody know why TNZ has JPN-41 and GER-68 for their training boats?

Training boats? Yeah, right.

 

They take fare-paying passengers for sailing jaunts around the harbour.

 

See: http://www.exploregr...-race-auckland/

Just to add some texture to what SBD means by taking fare-paying passengers out...  These boats are not TNZ boats at all.  They belong to Explore New Zealand, and have been completely refitted to carry about 30 people out on tourism trips.   They have motors installed, lifelines, and I believe, much smaller genoas than the race boats.  Dean was gagging while standing there knowing what the real thing is like.  They do have some relationship with TNZ but not sure what it is other than marketing.

 

Don't misinterpret me, they are a very nice use of an afternoon in Auckland, but you are not on TNZs real boats.  Not even the last ones they used in the Louis Vuitton Series.  They are old IACC hulls reconfigured for passengers and PAINTED in TNZ livery. That being said, infinitely better than the 12 that gives rides in Maui.  

 

My only recommendation is that if you do go out in one, don't be shy.   When I went out, the bloke steering asked the passengers if anybody wanted to steer.  Only two of us 'volunteered', so we each were to get a turn at the wheel . Their steering sensitivity is unlike anything youve sailed in this size class.  In other words, we did a quick tack cause I wanted to see how fast you could throw these things around.  Its really fast, dinghy-like.  Like pivots around the keel.  But testing the theory put the rail in the water and made some of the ladies squeal.   The second volunteer didn't get his turn.  The wind got to some threshold where they aren't allowed to let us mortals run it they said, but I think what happens is if sailors get on board, they don't want them steering because it usually means things get too exciting for the paying customers.  Whatever.  Don't miss your chance.  Volunteer quick and take the first shot.  You don't want some a-hole like me making them not give second turns.

 

This all may be different on the 'race' tours they do... but I never did that.



#67 Chris UK

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:44 AM

Classic.

 

Excellent! The next melt down has begun.
Once, when I had absolutely nothing better to do except poke myself repeatedly in the eye with a warm fork, and I couldn't find a fork, I wondered what sets off these meltdowns by Old cock breath. Many of us have witnessed these before and they are high comedy. My guess is that he sits in his cold little room down there in NZ, spewing his on-line fantasy that he is an independently wealthy international playboy who hangs with Larry, Russ and the lads, and flits on a whim between his houses in San Francisco and the Greek islands. Then he must look up from the keyboard and see the sad reality of his life. A man, in his late 40's, soft, jowly and unemployed and living in his mother’s spare room, surrounded by the toys of his youth, faded and broken just like the dreams he harboured as a keen, yet talentless, young man. But this was before he caught the dreaded 'Fucktardincreadabilous' virus from an unknown encounter, and his life changed forever. As the virus spread and he became more of a fucktard, he grew angry and began picking shitfights and spewing bullshit on interweb forums but, as his fucktardedness combined with his natural stupidity and 10 year old literacy skills, people soon worked out who he was. So stupid in fact that he started out on crew.org posting under his own name, then just changed the log name as he began his rampage of stupidity!
This was before he discovered sock puppets of course. Then his life changed again and his fucktardedness moved to a new level. He started to take the shitfights off line and harassing people at home and at work. You see he wants to be hated. Being hated is the only kind of relationship he can have with the outside world. He hates his country and blames it for his fucked up life.
He hates everyone associated with NZ yachting because you see - that was his boyhood dream. To skipper the New Zealand America's Cup challenge.
Naturally he was oblivious to the reality that he couldn't sail for shit and everyone who he had ever met thought he was a dick head. But, like the fat wheezy white kid who dreams of being Usain Bolt, he had a better chance of one day porking a real live girl than ever achieving that. In other words none. So Dean is the focus of his hatred. It was Jessie Watson a few years back, as another dream was to be the youngest circumnavigator as well. (He also dreamed he would one day Captain the All Blacks too, but being softer than a vegan’s turd, that was never going to happen.)
So Deano is everything he is not. Tall, rich, famous, hugely successful at his chosen career and well respected. Contrast that with being a short, stupid, much hated loser, and you can see why he is so angry. This is his world, this internet shit. At least being hated is a form of interaction and brings him the attention he so craves. But he doesn't realise just what he has achieved in life.
He is now the complete fucktard.
We should make him some kind of certificate. He can stick it on the wall next to the 'stained' pics of Sir Russ.
Anyway on with the show.....



#68 hoom

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:08 AM

To reduce it to its absolute basics, TNZ thought the young inexperience guys (the B team) couldn't foot to with the older experienced guns (the A team).

Consequently the team tried to neutralise this advantage by designing/building something at the extreme edge.

This was pretty much my impression.

 

Way I see/understand it: Apparently at least one team cottoned on to what was being done with hula & put a lot of pressure on via Measurement Committee who had previously ruled it legal.

TNZ were forced to put a lot of work & mental effort to prove legality.

Wound up having to make the gap wider, stiffen the hull & remove some sort of gel they had been putting in the gap to smooth the flow.

 

All that cost them some effectiveness of the hula + really hurt their actual sailing testing.

 

In all the boat was heavily optimised to maximising effective length/prismatic coefficient. As well as the hula it had a more extreme bow knuckle than before and the wickedly long bulb which will have also increased the prismatic.

But it will have had a significant effect on pitching moment too, I think stiffer initially for dealing with chop but once moving will have produced more violent pitch than shorter bulb.

Also lower CoG than fatter bulbs.

 

IACC rule had a sail area penalty for length so they either were effectively a longer hull & a sail area penalty or they used the tricks to make a boat with similar effective length but bigger sail area.

 

Also they had a thing with loading up a couple of sail bags in the stern scoop to alter the actual waterline in a way not caught by Measurement. Basically a cheat.

 

The structural issues are said to have started with the boat falling off a crest into a big hole, making a very loud crack, obvious damage & boat needed a lot of structural work to fix. (also added weight)

Then they were light on spares, were not sure about the structure so were pretty tentative in testing.

Clearly a bunch of stuff was at very light weight end of the structural spectrum eg the boom & spinaker pole -> quite possibly main structure was also very at edge too.

If I recall correctly the very long bulb was tested on the non broken boat & only switched to the primary boat for the AC -> final config hadn't been well tested.

 

Then on the first beat the water was coming in over the scoop/rear cockpit sides filling the boat. (Which was never fully fixed despite taking the sail bags out & putting screens in place)

 

 

The way I see it, the unexpected water plus untested fore-aft motion caused by the long bulb plus extra weight from structure caused a series of failures with various bits with fine safety margins not being up to the load.

 

 

And then even when stuff didn't break the boat still wasn't fast enough to make up for any shortcoming in boat handling sailing vs RC & BB at their peak in a fast boat they were comfortable with.



#69 minch

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:31 AM

This review gives a good insight- http://forums.sailin...-1262896736.ipb

 

On NZL 81:

 

NZL81 suffered crippling hull and deck structural damage in early December 2002.

At the time of the failure, the boat had not completed its testing programme. The cause

of the failure has not been finally determined at the time of writing this report. However,

it was not the result of a manufacturing fault.

The hull and deck on NZL81 failed again just prior to the start of the first race in the

America’s Cup.

These failures did not occur in NZL82 but it was a concern that never left the minds of

all members of the Team. NZL81’s failure undermined the Team’s confidence in the

structural soundness of NZL82. This led to compromises being made when testing the

limits of NZL82’s capabilities, and eventually to pushing the boat during racing.



#70 minch

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:36 AM

GER-68 was finished by TeamNZ to V5 of the IACC rule to compare to NZL-81/82 (with Hulas), as Hulas (Bustles) were banned under V5.  I vaguely recall that GER-68 was closer to SUI-64 in hull shape, which was important to understand in preparation for 2007 AC.

 

That's how i remember it- it was a J/V design or just a V design like Alinghi- it never made it to the cup in 2003, so it was bought by NZL to try and get an insight into the J/V design philosophy and give them, something that was V5 compliant while they fixed NZL-81 (again) and removed the Hulas etc.



#71 Xlot

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:03 AM

In this downtime for the Americas Cup before all the buzz of the next 35th AC Protocol I was hoping to learn from my esteemed colleagues here on AC Anarchy about the 2003 TNZ Defender NZL-82....


See? It took two weeks, but all things come to he who waits :) Thanks for asking also on my behalf

#72 Nice!

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 04:42 PM

TNZ boat was built very light, spec'd to the normal historical wind strengths expected for the time of year the finals were held. That year was an El Nino (or El something) which caused the wind to be much stronger than normal/expected. Had the series been sailed in 8-12 knots the story could have been much different.



#73 rule69

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 06:00 PM

TNZ boat was built very light, spec'd to the normal historical wind strengths expected for the time of year the finals were held. That year was an El Nino (or El something) which caused the wind to be much stronger than normal/expected. Had the series been sailed in 8-12 knots the story could have been much different.

That is the most implausible story I've heard all week.






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