Jump to content


trickle down


  • Please log in to reply
1033 replies to this topic

#1001 SimonN

SimonN

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,896 posts
  • Location:Sydney ex London

Posted 13 November 2015 - 07:31 AM

 

PS-Simon, not one of your so-called experienced sailors has ever sailed the Quant 23 -those individuals reacted in a very predictable way to something they have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with.

Hi Doug

 

Why pick on me? Macca also says he thinks they are dangerous, or doesn't he know what he is talking about either. Is it because, as usual, you are playing the man rather than arguing the facts and that you know that you cannot get away with attacking somebody with Macca's proven experience?

 

You also totally miss the point, yet again, that this is not about a single boat (Quant 23) but about a type of foil. You really don't have to sail the boat to understand why the foil configuration is particularly dangerous to others. The extraordinary thing is that you cannot see it when some of the most experienced foiling high performance sailors on this forum are pointing out the dangers.



#1002 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,661 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 13 November 2015 - 03:58 PM

In my younger days I heard and read many of these same arguments applied to boats with trapezes where the crews head is in danger from the proximity of the shrouds of a windward boat. I heard it said that Aussie 18's with racks and three guys on traps are "dangerous"-racks sticking out to leeward, heads sticking out to windward. I'm convinced that sailors racing the Quant 23 can adapt to the requirements of boat handling covered  by the RRS. These foils aren't hidden-they are as obvious as they can be- learning to deal with them doesn't seem like an impossible task to me - they are no more dangerous, when treated with common sense according to the rules, than a small hull way out to windward or leeward on a performance tri like Bethwaites Hsp. Or the tri shown below with Bruce Foils instead of hulls!

This is new stuff on a boat that is redefining foiling in terms of the ease with which the boat can be flown and the relatively docile characteristics of the boat on foils according to the guys that have the most experience sailing it. There is a reaction among some that tend to shoot(their mouths off) and ask questions later that this new foil concept is so dangerous that no one could ever adapt to it on a race course or anywhere else-I think that is just plain BS and is a slight to the majority of good sailors that can adapt to new stuff easily.

 

PS-Simon, not one of your so-called experienced sailors has ever sailed the Quant 23 -those individuals reacted in a very predictable way to something they have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with.

 

What he said!  There are many boats where common sense is a necessary ingredient in the handling of the boat in crowded venues and in learning the boat to start with. I find it totally preposterous that the Quant 23 foils are more dangerous than the foils of other foilers to the crew. 



#1003 macca

macca

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 795 posts

Posted 13 November 2015 - 06:15 PM

Doug,

I normally don't have time to post in here, I'm usually too busy doing things rather than hypothesizing endlessly... But I'll take five minutes now to hopefully clear up a coupe of points.

Firstly: foils that extend outboard of the hulls are inherently more of a risk than those that are extended inwards. This is basic common sense.

Secondly: skiffs and other boats with racks extending outboard are not something comparable to foils in terms of risk. They are without doubt more risky than not having racks. I made a very conscious decision to not fit racks to the GC and the projects we are doing now are also sans racks.

The diameter of a rack is going to be somewhere around the 80mm range and if you get hit by one of these it's not good, but compared to a foil made from almost solid carbon and a contact area less than one tenth of the rack it's easy to see the issue.

Finally: I am all for the developments we see going on like the quant and some others you haven't seen yet. But it's naive to think there are no issues with these designs, much the same as we see on the foiling cats. All we can do is try to mitigate the risks as best we can and for some people it's not acceptable to put a boat out there with Roman chariot foils :)

#1004 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,661 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 13 November 2015 - 08:14 PM

Thanks, Macca, I appreciate your post. My point was not that there were no risks or issues but that they could be managed using common sense and the RRS in racing.



#1005 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,657 posts

Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:04 AM

at http://www.sailing.org/news/41427.php
--
They then turned attention to the long-term ISAF Events Strategy reviewing the IOC Agenda 2020 recommendations. The committee focused on the format and qualification system for Tokyo 2020. In advance of the Events Committee meeting, the Equipment Committee put forward a recommendation on the future of the Nacra 17. The Events Committee endorsed their recommendation to evolve the Nacra 17 into a foiling multihull for Tokyo 2020.

#1006 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,661 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:31 AM

That is, maybe, the ultimate "trickle down" from 34...



#1007 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,968 posts

Posted 14 November 2015 - 01:23 PM

So does that mean bastardize the existing Nacra 17, or begin again for a foiling specific design for the Olympics?

Why would they not just run a competition based around some specs as they 'normally do'?



#1008 macca

macca

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 795 posts

Posted 14 November 2015 - 05:16 PM

I think ISAF are going to just trust Nacra to update the boat. It falls apart now, so I can only imagine how bad it will be when they try to make it foil...

Designing is fine, M&M know what they are doing. But the build quality is literally the worst I have ever seen on a production boat.

#1009 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,968 posts

Posted 15 November 2015 - 11:08 AM

^ Is Paul Cayard involved then?



#1010 Chainlocker

Chainlocker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Location:Virginia Beach, Virginia
  • Interests:Single handed racing, dinghy racing (Buccaneer 18), disabled sailing, King Krimson, electronics.

Posted 15 November 2015 - 01:31 PM

^ Is Paul Cayard involved then?

Poor Paul, he will never be able to live down all that happened to AR in their first visit to "The Show".
While his horrible management technique showed through, put the blame where it belongs, Juan K was pretty visible, up and until the first wing collapse and when Big Red emerged from the shed.
I couldn't understand why the man with his name on the design wasn't around for the initial structural tests.TH stated they screwed up the setup on the first tow test resulting in the fateful beam failure which plagued AR and that "boat" all the way too the end. I will always beleive that whole screwup is on Juan K.

#1011 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,968 posts

Posted 15 November 2015 - 09:00 PM

^ You got the point then...

 

Design or construction? Either way a manager has to manage, take responsibility when others can't, too close, too invested etc.

 

And before the event, not after - like I.safetyM.



#1012 Chainlocker

Chainlocker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Location:Virginia Beach, Virginia
  • Interests:Single handed racing, dinghy racing (Buccaneer 18), disabled sailing, King Krimson, electronics.

Posted 16 November 2015 - 01:36 AM

^ You got the point then...
 
Design or construction? Either way a manager has to manage, take responsibility when others can't, too close, too invested etc.
 
And before the event, not after - like I.safetyM.

Don't get me wrong PC has plenty of responsibilty over the whole fiasco. I have been involved in "break-through" cutting edge boat development programs and never have I seen a designer and builder (King) so hands off when it came to presenting the boat for testing. The designer and builder practically owned the boat until it passed engineering and structural testing, at least that is my experience. They didn't trust us not to go out and break it before they said "go".

#1013 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,657 posts

Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:14 PM

in ESS news

--

 

With just over three weeks until the start of the Extreme Sailing Series™ 2015 season finale on Sydney Harbour, a local wildcard entry of Aussie sailors is beginning an intensive training build-up to try and spring a surprise on some of the best multihull sailors in the world.

 

While much of the focus will be on Leigh McMillan and his impressive crew on The Wave Muscat, as McMillan tries to close out an unprecedented third Extreme Sailing Series championship, local eyes will be on Katie Spithill and her newcomers on board 33 South Racing.

Match racing champion Spithill, who started sailing at Elvina Bay in Pittwater and is sister to America’s Cup-winning skipper James, will be the only female skipper in the high-octane Extreme Sailing Series fleet.

 

http://www.extremesa...-sydney-harbour



#1014 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,068 posts

Posted 18 November 2015 - 04:51 PM

from world sailing

 

12219410_10153891110990757_2559786654237



#1015 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,661 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 18 November 2015 - 05:11 PM

Reminds me of the classic Hobie ad: "The Cat that Flies!"



#1016 couchsurfer

couchsurfer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,833 posts
  • Location:NA westcoast
  • Interests:...pimping HOOTs
    ...i550 NW circuit

Posted 18 November 2015 - 05:18 PM

.

 

 

....I always think of thLard when I see this title.....drooling,,or worse   :mellow:  :wacko:

 

photo-thumb-30.jpg?_r=1417619828



#1017 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,068 posts

Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:07 PM

Reminds me of the classic Hobie ad: "The Cat that Flies!"

Best known to me

 

IMG0001_jpg_1600x1600__generated.jpg

 

Hobiecat_stevewilkins1.jpg



#1018 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,968 posts

Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:48 PM

Great shot for sure, hope they survived that!

 

...and that's the machine they have been given the go ahead to hot-rod into a ff'er for 2020?

from world sailing

 

12219410_10153891110990757_2559786654237



#1019 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,068 posts

Posted 18 November 2015 - 11:36 PM

I think the 2020 boats will be fully flying, .....if Nacra can make a better boat than the present crap. But I love the shot !



#1020 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,657 posts

Posted 19 November 2015 - 10:40 PM

--
Foiling cats - Dr Martin Fischer talks about the design of the GC32

With the Extreme Sailing Series moving to the hydro-foiling GC32 catamaran in 2016, German naval architect and GC32 designer Martin Fischer talks through the technicalities of how these unbelievably fast rocketships rise up out of the water and fly across the surface.

http://www.mysailing...ign-of-the-gc32

#1021 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,661 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 19 November 2015 - 10:55 PM

Thanks, SR. I wish we could read an interview of Mr. Fischer talking shop with Tom Speer when they didn't know they were being recorded. Might get some more technical stuff then. But something is better than nothing.

Do you remember the original foils the 32 had? Didn't want to foil back then......



#1022 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,657 posts

Posted 19 November 2015 - 11:26 PM

Yes, with Tom Speer it's good to have a transcript to read, so you can re-read it several times. :)

Said Hi to him recently, he'll be back in Bermuda in December for a spell.

#1023 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,068 posts

Posted 21 November 2015 - 06:23 PM

Not new but still fun.

 

https://www.facebook...749545/?fref=nf



#1024 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,968 posts

Posted 22 November 2015 - 03:09 PM

Fun indeed, that thing has serious gas..

 

Been through many iterations - looks well sorted now, big grins.

 

WEB-0653.jpg

 

WEB-0084.jpg

 

WEB-2670.jpg

 

WEB-0061.jpg

 

WEB-630.jpghttp://project.kiteboat.com/



#1025 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,661 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 22 November 2015 - 03:25 PM

Those are some serious, musclebound wands! I guess because they're moving the whole foil and not a flap. Thanks-hadn't seen most of those pictures.



#1026 Tornado-Cat

Tornado-Cat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,068 posts

Posted 22 November 2015 - 03:36 PM

Thanks for the pictures, nice.



#1027 GauchoGreg

GauchoGreg

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,345 posts

Posted 23 November 2015 - 11:32 PM

What is the top speed the K2 has hit?



#1028 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,657 posts

Posted 29 November 2015 - 05:58 PM

Flying Phantom Series cancelled in Bermuda (big screwup!)
http://www.courseaul...u2cXIAAQc1U.png

#1029 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,661 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 29 November 2015 - 06:57 PM

What a drag! Good catch S.........



#1030 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,968 posts

Posted 03 December 2015 - 05:10 PM

From the FP

 

NatCat2

nat-2-cat-1024x795.jpg

 

repeats the common and obviously false 'first' nonsense, also mentions that - cats effectively banned after first race - which some here have strongly disputed.

 

cool looking boat though - the pod obviously inspired OTUSA



#1031 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,657 posts

Posted 04 December 2015 - 01:50 PM

--

Already established as an exciting fleet racing circuit that is rapidly expanding its horizons, the M32 cat is now the weapon of choice for the World Match Racing Tour. Matthew Sheahan sailed with reigning M32 champion and former WMRT winner Taylor Canfield to find out why this cat is so different and why it might provide the missing link between between both the match racing circuit and the America’s Cup and between amateur and pro sailors.

http://www.yachtingw...d-try-one-69256



#1032 nav

nav

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,968 posts

Posted 15 January 2016 - 07:33 AM

troj53_044_04.jpg

 

http://www.sunreef-yachts.com/



#1033 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,661 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:59 PM

Now that's a most interesting stinkpot-I searched that link and could find no info on it. Is it actually being produced?

 

Found more here: http://www.gizmag.co...atamaran/33991/



#1034 ~Stingray~

~Stingray~

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,657 posts

Posted 23 January 2016 - 09:24 PM

Includes some M32 discussion

--
Ian Williams fights for sixth world championship at Monsoon Cup
http://www.mysailing...-at-monsoon-cup




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users