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#1001 SimonN

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 07:31 AM

 

PS-Simon, not one of your so-called experienced sailors has ever sailed the Quant 23 -those individuals reacted in a very predictable way to something they have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with.

Hi Doug

 

Why pick on me? Macca also says he thinks they are dangerous, or doesn't he know what he is talking about either. Is it because, as usual, you are playing the man rather than arguing the facts and that you know that you cannot get away with attacking somebody with Macca's proven experience?

 

You also totally miss the point, yet again, that this is not about a single boat (Quant 23) but about a type of foil. You really don't have to sail the boat to understand why the foil configuration is particularly dangerous to others. The extraordinary thing is that you cannot see it when some of the most experienced foiling high performance sailors on this forum are pointing out the dangers.



#1002 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 03:58 PM

In my younger days I heard and read many of these same arguments applied to boats with trapezes where the crews head is in danger from the proximity of the shrouds of a windward boat. I heard it said that Aussie 18's with racks and three guys on traps are "dangerous"-racks sticking out to leeward, heads sticking out to windward. I'm convinced that sailors racing the Quant 23 can adapt to the requirements of boat handling covered  by the RRS. These foils aren't hidden-they are as obvious as they can be- learning to deal with them doesn't seem like an impossible task to me - they are no more dangerous, when treated with common sense according to the rules, than a small hull way out to windward or leeward on a performance tri like Bethwaites Hsp. Or the tri shown below with Bruce Foils instead of hulls!

This is new stuff on a boat that is redefining foiling in terms of the ease with which the boat can be flown and the relatively docile characteristics of the boat on foils according to the guys that have the most experience sailing it. There is a reaction among some that tend to shoot(their mouths off) and ask questions later that this new foil concept is so dangerous that no one could ever adapt to it on a race course or anywhere else-I think that is just plain BS and is a slight to the majority of good sailors that can adapt to new stuff easily.

 

PS-Simon, not one of your so-called experienced sailors has ever sailed the Quant 23 -those individuals reacted in a very predictable way to something they have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE with.

 

What he said!  There are many boats where common sense is a necessary ingredient in the handling of the boat in crowded venues and in learning the boat to start with. I find it totally preposterous that the Quant 23 foils are more dangerous than the foils of other foilers to the crew. 



#1003 macca

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 06:15 PM

Doug,

I normally don't have time to post in here, I'm usually too busy doing things rather than hypothesizing endlessly... But I'll take five minutes now to hopefully clear up a coupe of points.

Firstly: foils that extend outboard of the hulls are inherently more of a risk than those that are extended inwards. This is basic common sense.

Secondly: skiffs and other boats with racks extending outboard are not something comparable to foils in terms of risk. They are without doubt more risky than not having racks. I made a very conscious decision to not fit racks to the GC and the projects we are doing now are also sans racks.

The diameter of a rack is going to be somewhere around the 80mm range and if you get hit by one of these it's not good, but compared to a foil made from almost solid carbon and a contact area less than one tenth of the rack it's easy to see the issue.

Finally: I am all for the developments we see going on like the quant and some others you haven't seen yet. But it's naive to think there are no issues with these designs, much the same as we see on the foiling cats. All we can do is try to mitigate the risks as best we can and for some people it's not acceptable to put a boat out there with Roman chariot foils :)

#1004 Doug Lord

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 08:14 PM

Thanks, Macca, I appreciate your post. My point was not that there were no risks or issues but that they could be managed using common sense and the RRS in racing.



#1005 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:04 AM

at http://www.sailing.org/news/41427.php
--
They then turned attention to the long-term ISAF Events Strategy reviewing the IOC Agenda 2020 recommendations. The committee focused on the format and qualification system for Tokyo 2020. In advance of the Events Committee meeting, the Equipment Committee put forward a recommendation on the future of the Nacra 17. The Events Committee endorsed their recommendation to evolve the Nacra 17 into a foiling multihull for Tokyo 2020.

#1006 Doug Lord

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:31 AM

That is, maybe, the ultimate "trickle down" from 34...



#1007 nav

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 01:23 PM

So does that mean bastardize the existing Nacra 17, or begin again for a foiling specific design for the Olympics?

Why would they not just run a competition based around some specs as they 'normally do'?



#1008 macca

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 05:16 PM

I think ISAF are going to just trust Nacra to update the boat. It falls apart now, so I can only imagine how bad it will be when they try to make it foil...

Designing is fine, M&M know what they are doing. But the build quality is literally the worst I have ever seen on a production boat.

#1009 nav

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 11:08 AM

^ Is Paul Cayard involved then?



#1010 Chainlocker

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 01:31 PM

^ Is Paul Cayard involved then?

Poor Paul, he will never be able to live down all that happened to AR in their first visit to "The Show".
While his horrible management technique showed through, put the blame where it belongs, Juan K was pretty visible, up and until the first wing collapse and when Big Red emerged from the shed.
I couldn't understand why the man with his name on the design wasn't around for the initial structural tests.TH stated they screwed up the setup on the first tow test resulting in the fateful beam failure which plagued AR and that "boat" all the way too the end. I will always beleive that whole screwup is on Juan K.

#1011 nav

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 09:00 PM

^ You got the point then...

 

Design or construction? Either way a manager has to manage, take responsibility when others can't, too close, too invested etc.

 

And before the event, not after - like I.safetyM.



#1012 Chainlocker

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 01:36 AM

^ You got the point then...
 
Design or construction? Either way a manager has to manage, take responsibility when others can't, too close, too invested etc.
 
And before the event, not after - like I.safetyM.

Don't get me wrong PC has plenty of responsibilty over the whole fiasco. I have been involved in "break-through" cutting edge boat development programs and never have I seen a designer and builder (King) so hands off when it came to presenting the boat for testing. The designer and builder practically owned the boat until it passed engineering and structural testing, at least that is my experience. They didn't trust us not to go out and break it before they said "go".

#1013 ~Stingray~

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:14 PM

in ESS news

--

 

With just over three weeks until the start of the Extreme Sailing Series™ 2015 season finale on Sydney Harbour, a local wildcard entry of Aussie sailors is beginning an intensive training build-up to try and spring a surprise on some of the best multihull sailors in the world.

 

While much of the focus will be on Leigh McMillan and his impressive crew on The Wave Muscat, as McMillan tries to close out an unprecedented third Extreme Sailing Series championship, local eyes will be on Katie Spithill and her newcomers on board 33 South Racing.

Match racing champion Spithill, who started sailing at Elvina Bay in Pittwater and is sister to America’s Cup-winning skipper James, will be the only female skipper in the high-octane Extreme Sailing Series fleet.

 

http://www.extremesa...-sydney-harbour



#1014 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 04:51 PM

from world sailing

 

12219410_10153891110990757_2559786654237



#1015 Doug Lord

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 05:11 PM

Reminds me of the classic Hobie ad: "The Cat that Flies!"



#1016 couchsurfer

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 05:18 PM

.

 

 

....I always think of thLard when I see this title.....drooling,,or worse   :mellow:  :wacko:

 

photo-thumb-30.jpg?_r=1417619828



#1017 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:07 PM

Reminds me of the classic Hobie ad: "The Cat that Flies!"

Best known to me

 

IMG0001_jpg_1600x1600__generated.jpg

 

Hobiecat_stevewilkins1.jpg



#1018 nav

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:48 PM

Great shot for sure, hope they survived that!

 

...and that's the machine they have been given the go ahead to hot-rod into a ff'er for 2020?

from world sailing

 

12219410_10153891110990757_2559786654237



#1019 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 11:36 PM

I think the 2020 boats will be fully flying, .....if Nacra can make a better boat than the present crap. But I love the shot !



#1020 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 10:40 PM

--
Foiling cats - Dr Martin Fischer talks about the design of the GC32

With the Extreme Sailing Series moving to the hydro-foiling GC32 catamaran in 2016, German naval architect and GC32 designer Martin Fischer talks through the technicalities of how these unbelievably fast rocketships rise up out of the water and fly across the surface.

http://www.mysailing...ign-of-the-gc32

#1021 Doug Lord

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 10:55 PM

Thanks, SR. I wish we could read an interview of Mr. Fischer talking shop with Tom Speer when they didn't know they were being recorded. Might get some more technical stuff then. But something is better than nothing.

Do you remember the original foils the 32 had? Didn't want to foil back then......



#1022 ~Stingray~

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 11:26 PM

Yes, with Tom Speer it's good to have a transcript to read, so you can re-read it several times. :)

Said Hi to him recently, he'll be back in Bermuda in December for a spell.

#1023 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 06:23 PM

Not new but still fun.

 

https://www.facebook...749545/?fref=nf



#1024 nav

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 03:09 PM

Fun indeed, that thing has serious gas..

 

Been through many iterations - looks well sorted now, big grins.

 

WEB-0653.jpg

 

WEB-0084.jpg

 

WEB-2670.jpg

 

WEB-0061.jpg

 

WEB-630.jpghttp://project.kiteboat.com/



#1025 Doug Lord

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 03:25 PM

Those are some serious, musclebound wands! I guess because they're moving the whole foil and not a flap. Thanks-hadn't seen most of those pictures.



#1026 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 03:36 PM

Thanks for the pictures, nice.



#1027 GauchoGreg

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 11:32 PM

What is the top speed the K2 has hit?



#1028 ~Stingray~

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 05:58 PM

Flying Phantom Series cancelled in Bermuda (big screwup!)
http://www.courseaul...u2cXIAAQc1U.png

#1029 Doug Lord

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 06:57 PM

What a drag! Good catch S.........



#1030 nav

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 05:10 PM

From the FP

 

NatCat2

nat-2-cat-1024x795.jpg

 

repeats the common and obviously false 'first' nonsense, also mentions that - cats effectively banned after first race - which some here have strongly disputed.

 

cool looking boat though - the pod obviously inspired OTUSA



#1031 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 01:50 PM

--

Already established as an exciting fleet racing circuit that is rapidly expanding its horizons, the M32 cat is now the weapon of choice for the World Match Racing Tour. Matthew Sheahan sailed with reigning M32 champion and former WMRT winner Taylor Canfield to find out why this cat is so different and why it might provide the missing link between between both the match racing circuit and the America’s Cup and between amateur and pro sailors.

http://www.yachtingw...d-try-one-69256



#1032 nav

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 07:33 AM

troj53_044_04.jpg

 

http://www.sunreef-yachts.com/



#1033 Doug Lord

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:59 PM

Now that's a most interesting stinkpot-I searched that link and could find no info on it. Is it actually being produced?

 

Found more here: http://www.gizmag.co...atamaran/33991/



#1034 ~Stingray~

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 09:24 PM

Includes some M32 discussion

--
Ian Williams fights for sixth world championship at Monsoon Cup
http://www.mysailing...-at-monsoon-cup

#1035 ~Stingray~

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 05:43 PM

Nice article by Sheahan
--
What will foiling do for you? Why foils will change sailing forever
http://www.yachtingw...o-for-you-70244

#1036 nav

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 09:03 PM

160315_ESS_OmanAir_024.JPG

 

Extreme Sailing Series™ Act 1, Muscat standings after Day 2, 9 races (17.03.16)


Position / Team / Points

 

1st Oman Air (OMA) Morgan Larson, Pete Greenhalgh, James Wierzbowski, Ed Smyth, Nasser Al Mashari 102 points.
2nd SAP Extreme Sailing Team (DEN) Jes Gram-Hansen, Rasmus Køstner, Mads Emil Stephensen, Pierluigi De Felice, Renato Conde 88 points.
3rd Red Bull Sailing Team (AUT) Roman Hagara, Hans Peter Steinacher, Stewart Dodson, Adam Piggott, Brad Farrand 84 points.
4th Land Rover BAR Academy (GBR) Bleddyn Môn, Leigh McMillan, Ed Powys, Adam Kay, Neil Hunter 78 points.
5th Alinghi (SUI) Ernesto Bertarelli, Arnaud Psarofaghis, Nicolas Charbonnier, Nils Frei, Yves Detrey 78 points.
6th CHINA One (CHN) Taylor Canfield, Chris Steele, Shane Diviney, Hayden Goodrick, Luke Payne 62 points. 
7th Team Turx (TUR) Edhem Dirvana, Stevie Morrison, Cem Gözen, Alister Richardson, Anıl Berk Baki 61 points.
8th Sail Portugal (POR) Diogo Cayolla, Bernardo Freitas, Javier de la Plaza, Luís Brito, Winston Macfarlane 54 points.

 

- See more at: http://www.extremesailingseries.com/

 

160316_ESS_Muscat_017.JPG

 

160316_ESS_Muscat_038.JPG

 

160315_ESS_OmanAir_039.JPG



#1037 ozchrisb

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 10:57 PM

So Morgan Larson is still winning? And he doesn't work for EB anymore? And he still isn't on an AC team????

#1038 nav

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 07:39 PM

the virtual AC experience - through time

 

 https://www.youtube....h?v=Yu7CaGzzdzA

 

https://youtu.be/Yu7CaGzzdzA



#1039 nav

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 09:04 PM

Wanna build an AC app?

 

Here's the streaming spec...  http://docs.google.c...zNhMzJmNGVmNTY0

 

have fun..



#1040 nav

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 08:44 PM

From the FP

 

NatCat2

nat-2-cat-1024x795.jpg

 

repeats the common and obviously false 'first' nonsense, also mentions that - cats effectively banned after first race - which some here have strongly disputed.

 

cool looking boat though - the pod obviously inspired OTUSA

 

Further to ^

 

Here's the introduction to a video from a series filmed in the Herreshoff Marine Museum, by some fairly well informed guys from Off Center Harbour.Com

 

The catamaran in our latest video was so fast and extreme that it was disqualified after winning the New York Yacht Club’s Centennial Regatta, and club officials quickly banned cats from future “legitimate” racing.
 
Sound familiar?  But wait: This was 140 years ago, in 1876!


#1041 C249

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 02:36 AM

Just to say it again - yes the claim that cats were banned is completely and utterly wrong. It's a stubborn myth that some people hate to see disproven, apparently because they love to feel that multis were discriminated against by some big bad establishment.  However the fact, as clearly demonstrated by reports of the day in the NY Times, Brooklyn Daily Eagle and other newspapers, is that after Amaryllis' first race cats were treated like every other type in NY, or a bit more favourably in some ways.

 

Amaryllis was DSQ'd from that first race and given a special prize. First prize then went to Jacob Schmidt (aka Jack Smith), an immigrant saloon keeper, hat maker and sandbagger sailor - not exactly a member of the "establishment" and probably less 'establishment' than Nat was.  And the NY "establishment" of the era was arguably the most progressive and inventive bunch of sailors ever seen in the world.  In the space of a few decades they basically did things like introduce the Herreshoff (and Fearon) cats, invented ocean racing, introduced the "skimming dish" hull, introduced the first rating rule, took part in the first international races in medium size, small and big yachts, the first international races in small centreboarders, the first Bermudan rig in major racing, the racing scow, etc etc etc. Just like many of their British contemporaries, many of them were among the leading inventors and industrialists of their day. To class them as the sort of people who would ban cats is completely wrong.

 

Cats were then raced for several years in New York in a separate class, just as almost all other types were raced in separate classed divided by rig, type and length.  Cats were owned by powerful people like the commodore of the New Jersey YC and the rear commodore of the Boston YC.  The founder of the New York YC and the America syndicate, John C Stevens, had owned the cat Double Trouble decades before as well. A cat was also allowed to race with the New York YC itself, but it performed poorly. The "open' cats didn't race with the monos but that was simply because in those days each type normally raced by itself - sloops raced sloops, catboats raced catboats, schooners raced schooners - there were almost no "all in" events and perhaps none at all.

 

Cats also raced with the New Orleans YC and places like Salt Lake City. A few years later the first cat in Sydney, Flying Fish, was also owned by a club commodore, in the form of Mark Foy, famous for fostering the 18 Foot Skiffs. Flying Fish regularly raced with the Sydney Flying Squadron, where (despite myths about her speed) she was rated about 2 minutes slower than the 22 Foot "skiffs" and the Raters.

 

Yes, LF Herreshoff wrote one sentence that said that cats were banned and many people have since relied on that as the only evidence that the ban occurred - however the indisputable fact is that there was no such ban, and this is completely and utterly proven without doubt by the records of the time which are now available through internet archives.  The on-line archives of the Mystic Seaport Museum also show without the slightest doubt that LFH knew that cats were not banned, because his own letters on the archives include passages about their racing and saying that Nat was happy with the way the cats were treated. Why he made that mistake is a mystery, but the fact is that he was wrong - as his own words show.

 

The Mystic Seaport letters also show that LFH wrote that he thought that cats were slower overall than monos of the same length, and that Nat wrote that the days of the multihull were over once outboards arrived and that cats should not have cabins. So no one can really claim that the Herreshoffs were always infallible - they got it wrong at times like everyone else.

 

It's understandable that the myth was believed in the days when people couldn't check up on the facts on the internet, but this is 2016 and there's no excuse for believing it now. All people have to do is to go to something like the Brooklyn Daily Eagle archives, type in catamaran, and read the facts in the papers of the day.

 

As a cat owner I really wish this myth could be killed once and for all, because it's given some multi sailors a chip on the shoulder that has probably done more to hold back the cause of multihull sailing than any so-called discrimination by monohullers ever did.



#1042 Doug Lord

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 02:51 AM

So cats couldn't race with monohulls? Where did that great story about one of Nats cats beating a whole fleet of monos come from-seems like it was an old newspaper or magazine account? Is it possible that cats raced with monos until they proved so fast that they were banned(from racing with monos) but allowed to race in their own class?

And about 20 years after this there was the story of the unbeaten Dominion-the first tunnel hulled scow in 1898. And the last one until the 1960's........ 

Funny how these mostly very fast boats sort of petered out without being really banned..... If they weren't banned or in some way discriminated against why weren't more built? Just curious.....

 

v7sdb8.jpg

 

34s2mar.jpg



#1043 C249

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 04:16 AM

The story about Nat racing a whole fleet of monos referred to the occasion when Nat's Amaryllis raced a whole fleet of monos in the Centennial Regatta and was DSQ'd but given a special prize, as noted above.

 

The cats were raced as a class because in the late 19th century people didn't race widely different types against each other very often because they knew it would be a crapshoot depending on which type was favoured by the weather - it was written into the British rules that boats of different rig should not race each other, for example.  As anyone who cares to check will see, and as already noted, they didn't even normally race sloops against catboats even though many boats could swap from one rig to the other.  When they were that careful to race similar boats together it would have been ludicrous to race a cat against a cabin boat or against a sandbagger, which was still basically a working boat as demonstrated by the fact that sources such as Schoettle state that some famous sandbaggers returned to life as oyster boats, and by official documents such as the US government census on boatbuilding that Chappelle referred to.

 

Why did they die out? There's not much information about that, although Nat wrote to Francis in the early 1900s that multihulls were of no interest once outboards arrived since people who wanted to go fast would get motors - the letter is on the Mystic Seaport site. Francis wrote that they were wet, and slow in light airs. I think Nat may have noted to Francis that they also required expert handling.  Both Francis and Nat could have had their own cats but from about the 1880s Nat gave them up himself and Francis never got one.

 

To some extent the reason why the 19th century cats died out is a mystery but there is simply not a shred of evidence that they suffered negative discrimination in any way after that first race - in fact in some regattas they got favourable treatment in terms of prize money etc. As noted above, several powerful members of YCs, including commodores and rear-commodores, were into cats so they represented a powerful and affluent lobby group; they weren't outlaws and they were not treated as such.

 

Around the same time the canoes arrived in NY. They were not normally allowed in the same regattas as the cats and big monos - they just raced as a class. If racing as a class was fatal to cats why didn't it kill the canoes?  The Raters, scows and knockabouts of later years also normally raced in separate classes and it didn't kill them.

 

The fact that the cats were the fastest things around didn't mean that they would be popular - in the same way, Raters and Sandbaggers died out in favour of slower knockabouts, schooners were more popular than the faster big sloops. The Canoes of around the same era crashed in popularity when they became faster and more extreme. There's a long history of speed machines dying out.  

 

Anyone who believes that the 19th century cats died out because of prejudice can just go out and find some contemporary evidence - a lot was written about them so it shouldn't be hard to find if it existed.  Why don't you do some research about, for example, what Dominion's own creator said about her?  Sure, not everyone liked cats but so what - not every cat sailor likes monos, not every kiter likes windsurfers.

 

Finally, even if the NY clubs had banned cats, it's silly that some people seem to assume that would have stopped them becoming popular in Cowes, Sydney, the Alster, Auckland or other areas - the New York clubs didn't rule the sailing world.

 

The facts are true, pure and simple - there was no cat ban in New York in the 19th century.



#1044 nav

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 10:22 AM

^ :lol:

 

First you mis-frame the question, 'prove' it to your own satisfaction and finally state it as 'pure and simple truth'

 

Semantics.

 

Entered, won, no glory - that's simple

 

No more open races, involving multis*, by the 'oh so progressive' YC and AC trustees- that's simple

 

No wonder poor Mr. NH was 'confused' - and others still are it seems.

 

 

 

*until SDYC refused a challenge that was in the best tradition of the DOG, until forced by the courts to accept - and got desperate



#1045 C249

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:29 PM

I didn't reframe the question. For one, there was no question about whether cats wete banned n the post i replied to! The fact is that open races barely existed at the time, just as they are rare today in sailing - the cats dont race kites and boards very often now.
The fact is that cats were not banned from regular racing as was claimed. Yes amaryllis was disqualified from one race as already said, however that has to be put in perspective - it was only one race and after that they were well treated Nat was not confused - he got cat class racing which was what he wanted to get.
By the way, the. Centennial regatta was not run by the NYYC. It's a minor point apart from the fact that it shows the source of the quote is not accurate.
On previous posts I've given names, dates and sources (NY Times etc) that prove that cats were not banned. A search for amayllis or fearon will bring them up and show how clear the truth is. Cats were mot banned from legitimate races; they were given legitimate races like other types were.

#1046 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:46 PM

Not only the NYYC invented ocean races and cats, they invented sailing :lol:



#1047 C249

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:57 PM

No one said they invented sailing. The ny guys did however kick off transatlantic racing, international racing (America , Sappho , canoes, the seawanhaka cup for small yachts etc) and other innovations. I'm not a seppo, don't really like the NYYC or the current us scene - but the reality is that NYC sailors of the time were pioneers in many ways

#1048 nav

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 05:53 PM

^

I don't think you can see the irony of what you post.

 

There was a lot of time, effort, money and bragging rights tied up in having the 'fastest boat' around.

An American copied a design perfected over thousands of years in the Pacific but essentially unknown to the US sailor up 'til then.

There was an open race - perhaps another one of the 'progressive ideas' you are so proud to point out were prevealent at the time in NY, the boat was entered and raced.

 

And the result?

 

Was the newly proven better, or at least faster, type (even in it's first locally designed and built version)  hailed, adopted, invested in, improved upon and allowed to race for the most coveted prizes and to be recognised as 'Club Champion'?

Or was it denied it's legitimate win in that race, fobbed off with a 'special prize' and relegated to racing only with the other cats, of which there were zero at the time?

And did the 'open competition' format thrive and spread because it had so succesfully thrown up innovative ideas and improved design?

You yourself point out that that pattern, snobbery and preference for the status quo, continues to this day in most yacht clubs and races.

 

You understand the concept of an 'effective ban' don't you? Like an 'effective dismissal'?

 

I.e. It amounts to the same thing, in all but name - and potential for centuries of spin of course! :)



#1049 C249

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Posted 11 April 2016 - 01:35 PM

The truth is that in the race that Amaryllis won, the "bragging right" was to see who had the fastest open boat developed from an oyster boat.  The boats she was racing were sort of similar to the Mullet Boat class of Auckland harbour. Amaryllis was as out of place in that event as a Tornado would be in a Mullet Boat race.  Yes, the committee had not specified any class rules, because it was at the dawn of the sport.  No one had enough experience to know that they were necessary.  

 

Sure, from our perspective DSQing Amaryllis was the wrong thing to do, but we have the advantage of 150 years of experience in running sailing races. Modern classes like Moths, 12' Skiffies and shorthanded multihull racers have been banning new designs recently - why blame the NY guys for doing basically the same thing?

 

Yes, the faster type WAS allowed to race and WAS allowed to win its "championship" - among other similar boats.  The initial claim that cats were banned from future 'legitimate' racing is wrong. For a start, in New York at the time there was no official body to determine what was a "legitimate" race or not - many of the biggest races of the day were match races on terms arrived at by boat owners, with no club involved.

 

But many of the "legitimate" clubs (not that there was any other sort) held races for cats just like any other type. In the races held by the Brooklyn Yacht Club, for example, the catamaran class (Class H) was as legitimate as Class G (cat rigged boats) or Class D (cabin sloops, 35 to 45 feet LWL) or Class B (Schooners under 75 ft LWL), for example.  In the Long Island YC's 1879 annual regatta, the catamaran class was just as legitimate as the other classes - cabin sloops, open sloops and catboats.  In the New York Bay Regatta for open boats in 1878, the class for catamarans was just as legitimate as the class for 23 to 26 foot monos, or the class for 20 to 23 foot monos.   

 

The New Yorkers, like other sailors, rarely had "open competitions" because they knew that you didn't get good racing when the designs were too different. That is why (as already noted) they had classes divided by rigs, even when the hulls were very similar and often could set both sloop and cat rigs. So no, the "open competition format" did not thrive and spread.  What thrived and spread was separate classes for separate designs - sandbaggers, Raters, knockabouts, sharpies, dories, schooners, sloops, etc. 

 

Yes, Amaryllis had no rival for a short time, but that just means that the first "western" cat was in the same situation as the first sailing canoe (the fastest-growing type at the time), the first windsurfer, first offshore cat, and many other innovative boats - it had to wait a short time to get a proper race. That's what normally happens when a completely new type arrives on the yachting scene.

 

The plain and simple fact is that the cats were not thrown out of all legitimate races at all - they were given their own class just like other types of boat were.

 

And yes, double hulled canoes had been around for eons before Amaryllis, and the Brits had developed cats many years earlier than the Americans too. Amaryllis wasn't even the first cat around New York. But she was the first one to show herself in yacht racing.  



#1050 nav

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 11:56 AM

caption-contest.jpg

http://sailinganarchy.com/



#1051 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 03:18 PM

^^^ Why is this old stuff on the FP ? . This photo dates of 2009 or 2008 :)

 

http://www.boatdesig...mist-37734.html



#1052 SeanM

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 08:21 PM

lazy reporting






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