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10 mill$ poweryacht capsize during launch in Anacortes


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#1 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:19 PM

When I first heard this on the news I figured it was a 30 Bayliner with 6 people on the fly bridge.

But noooooo. It's a new 90'er. all on board were rescued. Boat apparently just heeled over during launch and kept going.

 

Anyone know any more about this? Who is the builder? Designer?

 

My confidence in the new yacht would be a bit shaken if this were mine.



#2 TheFlash

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:21 PM

well, that's not good...



#3 QBF

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:26 PM

Here is a link to a video on this event

 

http://www.kirotv.co...ized-boat/nfy8j



#4 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:26 PM

Northern Marine in Anacortes is the builder.



#5 Salazar

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:27 PM

This is all I see in the new so far, no more details that what you've mentioned:

 

ANACORTES, Wash. - A multimillion-dollar yacht capsized overnight near Anacortes, dumping six people in the water. All were rescued by Good Samaritans and local police and fire crews.

Witnesses said the 90-foot yacht flipped as it was being launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday.

It was a chaotic scene as rescuers rushed in to pull the six people aboard out of the water. There were eyewitness reports that crews had to use axes to reach people near the engine compartment.

Two of the rescued people were taken to the hospital to be checked out, said Petty Officer Jordan Akiyama of the U.S. Coast Guard.

A team has been sent in to assess pollution from fuel aboard the vessel. So far, no sheen has been observed, but the yacht has been boomed off as a precaution.

An investigation is pending as to why the yacht sank, Akiyama said.

 

http://www.komonews....-259794431.html

 

Edit: Too slow, QBF already has video up.



#6 QBF

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:28 PM

I wouldn't be heartbroken as they stated in the video, I'd be VERY pissed off!



#7 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:32 PM

I just love a good keel.



#8 Overbored

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:36 PM

How do you design a boat that won't stay upright in dead calm water?



#9 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:38 PM

It was flat ass calm up here last night. This happened about an hour away from me.

I've been drawing little stability sketches here trying to figure out how that happened. I have no idea what the boat looks like but you';d have to have a really high VCG for this to happen. It's not making sense to me.

This builder has built quite a few big yachts.



#10 Aloha 27

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:42 PM

I'll bet they blame Gatekeeper.



#11 Ishmael

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:42 PM

It was maybe a mistake putting the engines on the flybridge level...



#12 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:44 PM

They should call Gatekeeper now. He's experienced at these salvage jobs.



#13 WarBird

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:44 PM

Water Ballast design???



#14 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:45 PM

It is now.



#15 tad

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:46 PM

Very poor stability with nothing in her tanks.  I would guess undetected flooding because someone left something open that should have been closed. Tiny heel angle and free surface pulled her over. 



#16 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:49 PM

Tad:

How do you combine "nothing in the tanks" with a free surface problem? Are you saying the boat flooded? From the interview with the builder it did not sound like that..

 

This builder has built quite a few large yachts. There was no fuel leakage so I suspect the tanks were empty or almost empty.



#17 WarBird

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:52 PM

Some people see that boat as "half empty"..... I see it as "half full" :o



#18 tad

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:55 PM

According to this http://www.kirotv.co...zed-boat/nfy8j/  she heeled while still on the trailer, no time to fill at all....perhaps a hydraulic trailer malfunction and no stability because she was still up in the air.......



#19 Aloha 27

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:55 PM

Tried to launch on top of a C&C 30?



#20 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:58 PM

OK Tad, I have a question for you: I don't know boats like this very well.

If a boat like this presumably needs full or near full fuel tanks for stability how the hell do you feel comfortable operating the boat when you are down t the last 10% of your fuel?

 

"perhaps a hydraulic trailer malfunction and no stability because she was still up in the air...."

That sounds plausible to me.



#21 smackdaddy

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 04:58 PM

Very poor stability with nothing in her tanks.  I would guess undetected flooding because someone left something open that should have been closed. Tiny heel angle and free surface pulled her over. 

 

They had the best high water alarm in the industry...the dude in the bilge.



#22 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:02 PM

IIRC Hatteras has a boat that is marginally stable with near-empty tanks. Some vessels add water as the fuel is consumed. They have really good water seperators too:

 

As a vessel consumes fuel, air displaces the fuel in its fuel tanks, thus reducing the

vessel’s stability. There is an added detrimental effect to stability when a tank is partially full

and the liquid inside can slosh around. The degree to which these factors affect ship stability are

dependent on ship design and the sea state. Some classes of ships are more susceptible to

stability problems than others and certain locations have historically high wave action. When

ship stability is threatened, ballast water can be pumped into a fuel tank to replace the consumed

fuel and to regain stability. Ballast water is discharged when it is no longer needed for

operational reasons or when preparing for fuel reintroduction.

To maintain safe stability, vessels without clean ballast systems may begin ballasting fuel

tanks when remaining ship’s fuel drops to approximately 70-80% of total capacity. These

vessels may continue to ballast fuel tanks until approximately 20% of ship’s fuel capacity

remains (the minimum percentage allowed by U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) ships).1 Therefore, by

the end of a voyage, as much as 80% of the fuel tanks’ contents could be seawater.

Procedures have been established for both ballasting and deballasting to minimize the

concentration of fuel in the dirty ballast.



#23 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:04 PM

Just talked to Jim Bett's son in law in Anacortes. He said they "let some air out on one side and the boat started to tip. It rested on it's stabilizer and then just kept going."

That sounds close to Tad's theory.



#24 ProaSailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:09 PM

Witnesses said the 90-foot yacht flipped as it was being launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday.
 
http://www.komonews....-259794431.html


"launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday"? That's a very odd time to launch a boat.



#25 tad

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:13 PM

Here she is on the trailer just before launch

 

Attached File  Northernmarine90.jpg   41.76K   862 downloads

 

 

 

 


Witnesses said the 90-foot yacht flipped as it was being launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday.
 
http://www.komonews....-259794431.html


"launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday"? That's a very odd time to launch a boat.

High tide



#26 Southern Cross

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:18 PM

http://www.marineins...failure-videos/

I have a vague recollection of an ornate French, Spanish or English 15th,16th or 17th Century ship that went straight to the bottom when launched.

#27 WarBird

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:25 PM

I just love a good keel.

...getting it installed befor the launch is another matter :unsure:



#28 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:26 PM

Vasa (or Wasa)[1] is a Swedish warship built 1626-1628. The ship foundered and sank after sailing about 1,300 meters (1,400 yd) into her maiden voyage on 10 August 1628. She fell into obscurity after most of her valuable bronze cannons were salvaged in the 17th century. After she was located again in the late 1950s in a busy shipping lane just outside the Stockholm harbor, she was salvaged with a largely intact hull in 1961. She was housed in a temporary museum called Wasavarvet ("The Wasa Shipyard") until 1987 and then moved to the Vasa Museum in Stockholm. The ship is one of Sweden's most popular tourist attractions and has been seen by over 29 million visitors since 1961.[2]Vasa has since her recovery become a widely recognized symbol of the Swedish "great power period". She is today also a de facto standard in the media and among Swedes for evaluating the historical importance of shipwrecks.

Vasa was built top-heavy and had insufficient ballast. Despite an obvious lack of stability in port, she was allowed to set sail and foundered only a few minutes after she first encountered a wind stronger than a breeze. The impulsive move to set sail was the result of a combination of factors: Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus, who was leading the army on the continent on the date of her maiden voyage, was impatient to see her join the Baltic fleet in the Thirty Years' War; at the same time, the king's subordinates lacked the political courage to discuss the ship's structural problems frankly or to have the maiden voyage postponed. An inquiry was organized by the Swedish privy council to find personal responsibility for the disaster, but in the end no one was punished for the fiasco*.

During the 1961 recovery, thousands of artifacts and the remains of at least 15 people were found in and around the hull of the Vasa by marine archaeologists. Among the many items found were clothing, weapons, cannons, tools, coins, cutlery, food, drink and six of the ten sails. The artifacts and the ship herself have provided historians with invaluable insight into details of naval warfare, shipbuilding techniques and everyday life in early 17th-century Sweden. Vasa was intended to express the expansionist aspirations of Sweden and to glorify king Gustavus Adolphus. No expense was spared in decorating and equipping the Vasa, which was also one of the largest and most heavily armed warships of its time.

 

* in other news, NASA fails to study this and duplicates this feat centuries later



#29 tad

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:26 PM

Guy says we can have one too!

 

https://www.youtube....be&noredirect=1

 

 

Boat name is Baden, there are lots of pictures at the Northern Marine facebook page

 



#30 smackdaddy

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:27 PM

Here she is on the trailer just before launch

 

attachicon.gifNorthernmarine90.jpg

 

 

 

 



 

Witnesses said the 90-foot yacht flipped as it was being launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday.
 
http://www.komonews....-259794431.html


"launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday"? That's a very odd time to launch a boat.

High tide

 

So exactly how many levels/meters can you go up from the waterline and be okay? Maybe we just found out...

 



#31 Rasputin22

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:28 PM

The 'VASA' was the pride of the Swedish Navy, until it sank upon launching. Here is a clip about their stability testing at the time.

 

WHOSE FAULT WAS IT?

Vice Admiral Klas Fleming, partly. He had been present before the ship sailed, when the captain demonstrated how crank the ship was by having 30 men run back and forth across the upper deck. On their third pass, the ship was ready to capsize at the quay. The admiral was heard to say that he wished the king were there.

 

http://www.vasamusee...ip/The-sinking/



#32 WarBird

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:30 PM

http://www.marineins...failure-videos/

I have a vague recollection of an ornate French, Spanish or English 15th,16th or 17th Century ship that went straight to the bottom when launched.

Danish/Swedish. Vara ????(Vasa) Left side built to Danish foot, Right side built to Swedish foot. Ecumenical colaboration. Being mightiest, extra gun decks were added "up" Flipped and sank 1000 meters from the dock?

 

Wooden Boat 2012 or 2013 era



#33 couchsurfer

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:32 PM

.

 

......ouch :mellow:



#34 Rasputin22

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:34 PM

I don't need no stinkin GHS program to tell just by that first photo this is one top heavy mother. Positive Stability ™ must be an option that this owner didn't order. 

 

Thanks for this thread because I've just been straining my brain this morning to CG stability conditions for a 50' 49 passenger catamaran and needed a good example to inspire me to me through in my work.



#35 QBF

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:37 PM

Guy says we can have one too!

 

https://www.youtube....be&noredirect=1

 

 

Boat name is Baden, there are lots of pictures at the Northern Marine facebook page

 

They certainly didn't design much hull below the waterline on this vessel.



#36 ProaSailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:41 PM

Here she is on the trailer just before launch
 
attachicon.gifNorthernmarine90.jpg

 
YIKES!  That boat looks like it will roll right over.  What was the designer thinking?!
 
 

Guy says we can have one too!
 
https://www.youtube....be&noredirect=1
 
 
Boat name is Baden, there are lots of pictures at the Northern Marine facebook page

 
Honestly, that looks ridiculously top heavy - in this video, they say they'll be there to film the launch - wonder if they did?
 


#37 Southern Cross

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:46 PM

http://www.marineins...failure-videos/
I have a vague recollection of an ornate French, Spanish or English 15th,16th or 17th Century ship that went straight to the bottom when launched.

Danish/Swedish. Vara ????(Vasa) Left side built to Danish foot, Right side built to Swedish foot. Ecumenical colaboration. Being mightiest, extra gun decks were added "up" Flipped and sank 1000 meters from the dock?
 
Wooden Boat 2012 or 2013 era

Description sounds right. But Vasa sank on her maiden voyage.

#38 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:49 PM

Here she is on the trailer just before launch
 
attachicon.gifNorthernmarine90.jpg

 
YIKES!  That boat looks like it will roll right over.  What was the designer thinking?!
 
 

>Guy says we can have one too!
 
https://www.youtube....be&noredirect=1
 
 
Boat name is Baden, there are lots of pictures at the Northern Marine facebook page

 
Honestly, that looks ridiculously top heavy - in this video, they say they'll be there to film the launch - wonder if they did?
 

 

Perhaps granite counter tops were a bad choice.



#39 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:49 PM

The boat in question *could have* many tons of ballast. Likely not, but car carrier ships look way top heavy too and don't capsize for the most part.



#40 hobot

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 05:57 PM

Wow! 1:52 min of the vid....is it the lense making it look that narrow at the waterline?

#41 Bull City

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:02 PM

I wonder if this accident had similarities to the Italian cruise ship that grounded and then capsized a few years ago.



#42 WarBird

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:03 PM

 

http://www.marineins...failure-videos/
I have a vague recollection of an ornate French, Spanish or English 15th,16th or 17th Century ship that went straight to the bottom when launched.

Danish/Swedish. Vara ????(Vasa) Left side built to Danish foot, Right side built to Swedish foot. Ecumenical colaboration. Being mightiest, extra gun decks were added "up" Flipped and sank 1000 meters from the dock?
 
Wooden Boat 2012 or 2013 era

Description sounds right. But Vasa sank on her maiden voyage.

I cued in on "Ornate"  and "15,16,17 th century" and Vasa came to mind.  There certainly could be (or are) other launchings from that time frame and continent where the outcome was sub optimal.



#43 ProaSailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:04 PM

Wow! 1:52 min of the vid....is it the lense making it look that narrow at the waterline?


Baden_bow.jpg



#44 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:07 PM

Proa:

Time of launch was most probably a tide related issue to get deep water on the ramp.

 

I know so little about boats like this but when I look at that boat it does not look right to my eye either. My wild ass guess is that the VCG of that boat with almost empty tanks would be about right through those low hull ports. Wonder if they were all closed. VCG could be as high as that rub rail.

 

Where's Jose? This is his kind of boat.



#45 Jose Carumba

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:21 PM

Ok, Ok.

 

Without knowing the facts I can only surmise that it was a case of piling stuff on (CG too high). I think the mold for this boat started out being for a shorter boat and was lengthened to 86ft perhaps without widening it. These hulls are shallower than a true fishing boat hull. So combined with a lot of superstructure up high and perhaps fitted out with heavy furnishings stability was probably iffy to begin with. Any slack tanks would create problems via free surface if the trailer hydraulics failed during launch as Tad said.  I do not know who designed the original lines for the mold. I do not know if the current owners of Northern Marine had a qualified engineer or Naval Architect involved. The previous owners of the company did. I do know the stylist, I won't call him a designer, responsible for the profile and arrangement.

When we build similar yachts we use our fish boat molds, or one of our heavier displacement hull molds, or design a new hull if the boat will have a steel hull. Ours are stable with empty tanks. Long range yachts are useless and dangerous IMO if you can't run the tanks down without threatening the boat's stability. We generally have ballast tanks in our hulls but they are used to adjust trim as fuel is burned off.

 

Edit: With 6 Naval Archtects on staff we take stability very seriously.



#46 ProaSailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:27 PM

The boat in question *could have* many tons of ballast. Likely not, but car carrier ships look way top heavy too and don't capsize for the most part.

 

072406_cougar_ace.jpg

Singapore flagged vessel Cougar Ace, a 654 foot car carrier

 

cougarace.jpg

 



#47 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:52 PM

Hmmm......launching on Sunday night might have been a big factor as it would be just after the lunar/tide cycle and highs & lows to almost an extreme if they had to work with it; it happens all the time with big yachts. But it's odd that it's Northern Marine as builder having a problem like this. They aren't new at this - not a flaky one-off build for example. I believe there is a well known and noted racing sailor that has a Northern too for his cruising yacht. He'd understand what went into it not just worrying about the carpets & drapes like a lot of power yacht buyers.

 

There's something wrong here and I guess we'll find that out at one point. 



#48 pogen

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:10 PM

I've been to the Wasa Museum in Stockholm, it is well worth a visit

 

http://www.vasamuseet.se/en/ 

 

Pretty amazing how political pressure, face-saving by subordinates, and even a blue-ribbon panel investigation (which finds the cause, but doesn't do much because too many important people were involved)  were part of the landscape 400 years ago. 



#49 mo fuzz

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:10 PM

This was the wrap up workshop class of TrawlerFest this last weekend in Anacortes.

 

"How Not to Launch Your New Trawler"

 

20140519_114923.jpg
20140519_115258.jpg

 

Attached Files



#50 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:11 PM

10 mill POS. Should have named it the Turtle. Why in the fuck would you want to pile on deck after deck on that shallow hull. Why in the fuck would any yacht owner want to worry about the fuel level ever. You would think that the insurance world would stop that shit in its tracks. My bet is that thing didn't conform to any yacht engineering standards. Shit that thing would blow over sitting on jack stands in the yard.

 

You can't fix stupid but Darwin can



#51 fiddydos

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:12 PM

http://www.superyach...article/id/7363

 

and

 

http://yachtcaptainblog.com/



#52 ProaSailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:28 PM

http://yachtcaptainblog.com/

 
Very interesting.  Here is the more specific url:
 
http://yachtcaptainb...aunch-disaster/
 

Before this transition occurred I had RODDAN ENGINEERING complete a stability study in 2013. This is attached to his post and I encourage you to read it.
 
In fact, on September 16, 2013 I informed the shipyard manager that I had some grave concerns about the dolly system used to move the ship. I conveyed that I firmly believed another system or method of transport would be needed to safely launch (Blood Baron) Baden.

 
Would love to see that stability study?
 
The implication here is that the fault is in the launching method/system which somehow allowed the boat to tip too far.  But how far was too far?  Would the same thing happen rolling in heavy swell?  If it was a launch accident, it might very well have saved lives from a worse outcome at sea.



#53 familysailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:41 PM


 

 

 

 

 



Here she is on the trailer just before launch

 

attachicon.gifNorthernmarine90.jpg

 

 

 

 



 

Witnesses said the 90-foot yacht flipped as it was being launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday.
 
http://www.komonews....-259794431.html


"launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday"? That's a very odd time to launch a boat.

High tide

Looks like they added one too many layers on the wedding cake....



#54 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:42 PM

Huh. Looks like the feces are going to meet the rotary ventilation device over this one. A lot of finger pointing and dusting off their lawyers for certain.

 

I hope that no one got seriously injured but this will be entertaining.   



#55 steele

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:44 PM

I know nothing about power boat design, but it looks to have very little hull below waterline.  Here is a pic of Nordhavn's same size expedition boat.  Even it has a lot less going on than a sailboat, but looks a lot more substantial than the boat that rolled,

Attached File  4.jpg   39.82K   165 downloads



#56 WarBird

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:50 PM

........but the front didn't fall off........

#57 Gatekeeper

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:53 PM

I had nothing to do with it!!



#58 Diarmuid

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:56 PM

Apparently bow bulbs are a thing?



#59 Jose Carumba

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:57 PM

http://yachtcaptainblog.com/

 
Very interesting.  Here is the more specific url:
 
http://yachtcaptainb...aunch-disaster/
 

>Before this transition occurred I had RODDAN ENGINEERING complete a stability study in 2013. This is attached to his post and I encourage you to read it.
 
In fact, on September 16, 2013 I informed the shipyard manager that I had some grave concerns about the dolly system used to move the ship. I conveyed that I firmly believed another system or method of transport would be needed to safely launch (Blood Baron) Baden.

 
Would love to see that stability study?
 
The implication here is that the fault is in the launching method/system which somehow allowed the boat to tip too far.  But how far was too far?  Would the same thing happen rolling in heavy swell?  If it was a launch accident, it might very well have saved lives from a worse outcome at sea.

 

I'd like to see the stability study as well but I don't think anybody but lawyers will see it for a while.

 

If the boat did not have all of its ballast in place, which is usual as some is reserved for trim ballast, and the tanks were slack it could very well be that if the trailer collapsed it could send the boat over.



#60 Jose Carumba

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:03 PM

Apparently bow bulbs are a thing?

 

What? You don't have one?  Yes, when designed correctly a bulb will reduce wave making resistance quite a bit resulting in better fuel economy and it will reduce pitching for a more comfortable ride.  They don't work very well for sailboats because of heeling.



#61 PATSYQPATSY

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:14 PM

Apparently bow bulbs are a thing?

 

What? You don't have one?  Yes, when designed correctly a bulb will reduce wave making resistance quite a bit resulting in better fuel economy and it will reduce pitching for a more comfortable ride.  They don't work very well for sailboats because of heeling.

What about a canting bow bulb.  You heard it here first! 



#62 QBF

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:32 PM

Apparently bow bulbs are a thing?

 

What? You don't have one?  Yes, when designed correctly a bulb will reduce wave making resistance quite a bit resulting in better fuel economy and it will reduce pitching for a more comfortable ride.  They don't work very well for sailboats because of heeling.

 

Australian multihull designer, Lock Crowther used bow bulbs for a short time on his catamarans. I don't think he used them for long.

 

http://www.multihull...sp?articleID=81

Attached Files



#63 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:35 PM

Expedition/long range yachts like the Northern or Nordhaven and the ilk have been doing bulbous bows forever. It's a proven technology in deep sea ships so why not? I find them not the prettiest feature but for function - yes.

 

It's pure speculation at this point but looking at the captain's blog and the flat tires it might have been a factor I suppose - I wasn't there. However, being involved with new launches it's always a hectic/stressful event and high tide was at around 2200 hrs. If they were launching on that trailer there would have been a time constraint as well. With the stress to get it done it just went pear shaped because of it. I've been there and have the sweaty t-shirt to prove it.

 

And again it's still speculation on my part but I can see it happening. Similar like that the Travelift the collapsed on Vancouver Is. I know the yard well and surprised that happened. But shit does happen.   



#64 Aloha 27

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:52 PM

I had nothing to do with it!!

 

Riiiiiiight...



#65 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:30 PM

This has nothing to do with bulbous bows.

 

I say it's all Gatekeeper's fault.



#66 DFL1010

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:41 PM

IIRC Hatteras has a boat that is marginally stable with near-empty tanks. Some vessels add water as the fuel is consumed. They have really good water seperators too:
 
As a vessel consumes fuel, air displaces the fuel in its fuel tanks, thus reducing the
vessel’s stability. There is an added detrimental effect to stability when a tank is partially full
and the liquid inside can slosh around. The degree to which these factors affect ship stability are
dependent on ship design and the sea state. Some classes of ships are more susceptible to
stability problems than others and certain locations have historically high wave action. When
ship stability is threatened, ballast water can be pumped into a fuel tank to replace the consumed
fuel and to regain stability. Ballast water is discharged when it is no longer needed for
operational reasons or when preparing for fuel reintroduction.
To maintain safe stability, vessels without clean ballast systems may begin ballasting fuel
tanks when remaining ship’s fuel drops to approximately 70-80% of total capacity. These
vessels may continue to ballast fuel tanks until approximately 20% of ship’s fuel capacity
remains (the minimum percentage allowed by U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) ships).1 Therefore, by
the end of a voyage, as much as 80% of the fuel tanks’ contents could be seawater.
Procedures have been established for both ballasting and deballasting to minimize the
concentration of fuel in the dirty ballast.



Never heard of this before. Filling ballast tanks as fuel is burnt, sure. But never ballasting a slack fuel tank.

Apart from the obvious problem, how do you deballast? Need a damn good ODME and oil/water interface detection stuff. Filling in the ORB would be interesting too.

#67 SloopJonB

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:55 PM

At least one local yard and many around the world launch stuff that size and a lot bigger on sideways slipways - they don't roll over.

 



#68 SloopJonB

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:57 PM

Apparently bow bulbs are a thing?

 

What? You don't have one?  Yes, when designed correctly a bulb will reduce wave making resistance quite a bit resulting in better fuel economy and it will reduce pitching for a more comfortable ride.  They don't work very well for sailboats because of heeling.

 

They work in a very narrow speed range - they are a "steady state" kind of feature.



#69 DFL1010

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:17 PM

And trim specific. Of note, Maersk are modding their ships with new bulbous bows for slow steaming:

http://www.maersktec...efficiency.aspx

Deleted entirely in other new builds. New offshore ships are going for x-bows. The times they are a-changing.

#70 mo fuzz

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:28 PM

The sinking was barely 30 feet away from this relatively "slow" looking boat.  ;)

 

 

 

Attached Files



#71 DFL1010

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:50 PM






The boat in question *could have* many tons of ballast. Likely not, but car carrier ships look way top heavy too and don't capsize for the most part.

 
072406_cougar_ace.jpg
Singapore flagged vessel Cougar Ace, a 654 foot car carrier[/size]
 
cougarace.jpg[/size]
 
In fairness, that was a result of poorly planned ballast water exchange (BWE), resulting in an angle of loll.

http://www.sjofartsv...0806/15-6-2.pdf

Any ship that is operated with insufficient stability will capsize, regardless of design, so it wasn't the fact that it was a car carrier that caused the capsize.

See here of how angles of loll go bad:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoBF9BPc1PM&sns=tw


Note here that it was a shift in cargo; also possible due to wind/wave action.

All comes down to metacentric height.


As a side note, this is where I disagree with BWE. The idea is sound: ships pick up animals in the ballast water (e.g. shrimps, crabs, and tigers) in port A and deposit them in port B, sometimes with deleterious effects on the local ecosystem. However, it has the unintended consequence of being quite dangerous and making ships fall over. At worst, a ship lost is worse than the effects of moving shrimp around, but I digress.

#72 Veeger

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:52 PM

They only had 120 gallons of fuel aboard and likely, no ballast.  I would assume that they were concerned about too much weight on the launching assembly and would minimize the weight.  120 gallons wouldn't even have really made a difference with regard to free surface.

 

The KIRO news video interviewed the builder who stated that they saw the list during the launch, stopped everything and then proceeded when they thought everything was okay.  That makes me believe that it wasn't the launching device unless it permitted enough list to cause the GM to go negative given that probably all of the tanks were empty.

 

There were people in the engine room trying to adjust ballast, perhaps even during the launch.  A classic mistake can be to move too much weight to the 'high' side thinking you were going to bring it back level and then having it be too much or having free surface take over.  I wonder if the capsize was in the opposite direction to the original list....

 

I'm thinking it was the lack of enough (any?) ballast and fuel that resulted in an unstable boat.  That would make it the fault of the builder for not ensuring it was properly prepped for launching.  As an aside, all these 'expedition trawler' types look pretty unstable to me but presumably the math works in the real world.  I say, 'presumably'...



#73 Scarecrow

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:59 PM

Australian multihull designer, Lock Crowther used bow bulbs for a short time on his catamarans. I don't think he used them for long.
 
http://www.multihull...sp?articleID=81

Lock stop using them because he died. Typically bulbs are used on medium-high speed powercats as a way to get buoyancy fwd without sacrificing a fine entry. Google semi-swath

#74 QBF

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:05 PM

Australian multihull designer, Lock Crowther used bow bulbs for a short time on his catamarans. I don't think he used them for long.
 
http://www.multihull...sp?articleID=81

Lock stop using them because he died. Typically bulbs are used on medium-high speed powercats as a way to get buoyancy fwd without sacrificing a fine entry. Google semi-swath

 

Thanks for the correction. I thought Lock stopped using them before he passed away.



#75 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:12 PM

We may be overthinking this. It sure as hell has nothing to do with the bulbous bow. Why are we talking about that?

It has nothing to do with wind and waves. There were none.

And you don't pump water into fuel tanks on yachts for ballasting. You may wish you did but it's not done.

I think they may need to look at the physics in the way it was being launched. Jose has an interesting theory on this.



#76 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:15 PM

There is a whole set of regulations about how good the water separator has to be for discharging the water. I have seen one of the units that goes in the engine feed line and it was about the size of a washing machine. It used centrifugal force to spin the water out. I think it was on a diesel sub if memory serves.

 

IIRC Hatteras has a boat that is marginally stable with near-empty tanks. Some vessels add water as the fuel is consumed. They have really good water seperators too:
 
As a vessel consumes fuel, air displaces the fuel in its fuel tanks, thus reducing the
vessel’s stability. There is an added detrimental effect to stability when a tank is partially full
and the liquid inside can slosh around. The degree to which these factors affect ship stability are
dependent on ship design and the sea state. Some classes of ships are more susceptible to
stability problems than others and certain locations have historically high wave action. When
ship stability is threatened, ballast water can be pumped into a fuel tank to replace the consumed
fuel and to regain stability. Ballast water is discharged when it is no longer needed for
operational reasons or when preparing for fuel reintroduction.
To maintain safe stability, vessels without clean ballast systems may begin ballasting fuel
tanks when remaining ship’s fuel drops to approximately 70-80% of total capacity. These
vessels may continue to ballast fuel tanks until approximately 20% of ship’s fuel capacity
remains (the minimum percentage allowed by U.S. Coast Guard (USCG) ships).1 Therefore, by
the end of a voyage, as much as 80% of the fuel tanks’ contents could be seawater.
Procedures have been established for both ballasting and deballasting to minimize the
concentration of fuel in the dirty ballast.



Never heard of this before. Filling ballast tanks as fuel is burnt, sure. But never ballasting a slack fuel tank.

Apart from the obvious problem, how do you deballast? Need a damn good ODME and oil/water interface detection stuff. Filling in the ORB would be interesting too.


#77 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:16 PM

They REALLY wish they did at this point :lol:

 

We may be overthinking this. It sure as hell has nothing to do with the bulbous bow. Why are we talking about that?

It has nothing to do with wind and waves. There were none.

And you don't pump water into fuel tanks on yachts for ballasting. You may wish you did but it's not done.

This is a boat unstable by design.



#78 LeeJerry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:21 PM

Based only on the information and links in this thread, I would speculate that this was the result of a problem with the launch calculations – either not done or not followed (as the former captain claimed) or conditions different than the calculations, etc., or some combination.

 

In particular, assuming the boat was launched by driving the “trailer” (seen in some of the pics) down a ramp, the grounding force (i.e. vertical force on the bottom of the vessel) acts to reduce the stability of the vessel during launch. (Note that the reaction to grounding is the same as launch/dry docking, only the progression is reversed.)  In other words, the stability of a vessel that is partially supported by buoyant forces and partially supported by contact forces has reduced stability compared to one that is entirely supported by either type alone.  So during the launch, the stern is deeper and floats first removing the transverse support of that wide trailer section and leaving the bow still on the "ground force" of the narrow trailer there.

 

There are a couple ways to look at this force, namely as a buoyant force acting up through the contact point, or as a weight removed from the contact point. Obviously the two methods should get the same answer, but sometimes the math is easier with one method or one method is simply preferred by the analyst.  Consider the removed weight method.  It shouldn’t be too difficult for a sailor, as some of you claim to be, to visualize how removing weight from the keel reduces the stability.

 

To put it into numbers, let the grounding force be P and the total weight be W, then the removal of the “weight” of P from the keel causes a virtual rise in the center of gravity by P/(W-P).  So for example, if the grounding force is 10% of W, then the CG will rise 11%. A rise in CG results in a corresponding decrease in GM.  Combine this with the reduced waterplane (not yet free floating, so both sinkage and trim effects), throw in some slack tanks and their free surface, and this apparently added up to negative stability during launch.

 

However, the boat could (and probably does) have perfectly adequate stability in operation even though there was this accident during launch – which shouldn’t have happened, just isn’t indicative of the operational stability.



#79 Veeger

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:30 PM

Based only on the information and links in this thread, I would speculate that this was the result of a problem with the launch calculations – either not done or not followed (as the former captain claimed) or conditions different than the calculations, etc., or some combination.

 

In particular, assuming the boat was launched by driving the “trailer” (seen in some of the pics) down a ramp, the grounding force (i.e. vertical force on the bottom of the vessel) acts to reduce the stability of the vessel during launch. (Note that the reaction to grounding is the same as launch/dry docking, only the progression is reversed.)  In other words, the stability of a vessel that is partially supported by buoyant forces and partially supported by contact forces has reduced stability compared to one that is entirely supported by either type alone.  So during the launch, the stern is deeper and floats first removing the transverse support of that wide trailer section and leaving the bow still on the "ground force" of the narrow trailer there.

 

There are a couple ways to look at this force, namely as a buoyant force acting up through the contact point, or as a weight removed from the contact point. Obviously the two methods should get the same answer, but sometimes the math is easier with one method or one method is simply preferred by the analyst.  Consider the removed weight method.  It shouldn’t be too difficult for a sailor, as some of you claim to be, to visualize how removing weight from the keel reduces the stability.

 

To put it into numbers, let the grounding force be P and the total weight be W, then the removal of the “weight” of P from the keel causes a virtual rise in the center of gravity by P/(W-P).  So for example, if the grounding force is 10% of W, then the CG will rise 11%. A rise in CG results in a corresponding decrease in GM.  Combine this with the reduced waterplane (not yet free floating, so both sinkage and trim effects), throw in some slack tanks and their free surface, and this apparently added up to negative stability during launch.

 

However, the boat could (and probably does) have perfectly adequate stability in operation even though there was this accident during launch – which shouldn’t have happened, just isn’t indicative of the operational stability.

Okay.  I'll put my money on this explanation.....  (but. somebody. shoulda. knowed--jus sayin') 



#80 Bob Perry

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:53 PM

Jerry's explanation sounds right to me. Not enough boat in the water to provide stability.



#81 Keith

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:55 PM

So, perhaps, launching off a travel lift may have been a better choice. ?



#82 Aloha 27

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:05 AM

So, perhaps, launching off a travel lift may have been a better choice. ?

It couldn't possibly have been a worse choice.



#83 Southern Cross

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:09 AM

Do you think know the owners will get their money back?

#84 SloopJonB

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:13 AM

Perhaps a better designer may have been a better choice?  The theory of it lacking stability with only the stern in the water begs the question "what would happen if it stuck its nose out of a tall wave"?



#85 Bob Perry

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:18 AM

This guy had it figured out:

 



#86 See LEVEL

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:19 AM

Why not crane launch, there must be a crane big enough in Anacortes area.
Is the launch fee at the boat ramp for a 90ft'r the same as a fishing skif?
A whole lotta nice work wasted with the finish line in sight.

#87 Maxx Baqustae

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:20 AM

I understand Jerry's explanation too. Might have been a number of factors that this went south but that must be a lot of it. A boat like that is supposed to float not sit on a trailer. And in my experience with power yachts a little smaller of than that the tanks are dry except running up systems: water and fuel so I wouldn't be surprised that it only had 120 gals. of fuel in it. I've done that from the deck of a ship to the water. Never a thought it's too unstable because it run basically dry. It doesn't happen. 

 

There might be other factors but we will find out from the insurance companies and the lawyers at the end of the day.



#88 Bob Perry

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:33 AM

Jose had a good take on it. Think of an old IOR boat running hard at hull speed downwind balanced on the bow and the stern with a big hole in the middle where most of the boat is." You know what happens next.



#89 Jose Carumba

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 01:08 AM

I think LeeJerry has it right. The IOR boat analogy is a simpler way of putting it. Not having a cradle to support the bow may have been a costly mistake.

#90 ProaSailor

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 01:13 AM

I think LeeJerry has it right. The IOR boat analogy is a simpler way of putting it. Not having a cradle to support the bow may have been a costly mistake.

 

How do we know they didn't launch bow first?  Or maybe it would have worked better if they had?

 

Hard to believe that stern lifted much weight before it would have been submerged.  Then again, with the limited support at the bow, it probably wouldn't take much to make it unstable.

 

There has to be video of the launch somewhere...  What is taking so long to see it?

 

P.S.  Here's a vid of a smaller Northern Marine 58 being launched stern first at the same ramp?

 



#91 Bob Perry

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 01:45 AM

Isn't it really great that we can start the day with a disaster, kick it about and near the end of the day all be a little bit smarter?

I can use smarter.



#92 zerothehero

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 02:35 AM

I like this launching theory.  On a much smaller scale I have seen this in action with canoes and kayaks.  one it myself a few times.  Stern is supported by water, bow on land.  Crew gets in and everything is fine.  But as soon as they push back just a little, over they go!  Suddenly there isn't enough boat in the water and the part on land doesn't offer an stability (a fine bow).  Did this the first time I got in a real sea kayak.  It was a cold and wet shock.  I like it, I think you are onto something.



#93 hobot

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 03:18 AM

 
 
 
 
 



Here she is on the trailer just before launch
 
attachicon.gifNorthernmarine90.jpg
 
 
 
 



 



Witnesses said the 90-foot yacht flipped as it was being launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday.
 
http://www.komonews....-259794431.html

"launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday"? That's a very odd time to launch a boat.
High tide
Looks like they added one too many lawyers on the wedding cake....
That's what they've got on thier hands now.

#94 TheFlash

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 03:57 AM

Jose had a good take on it. Think of an old IOR boat running hard at hull speed downwind balanced on the bow and the stern with a big hole in the middle where most of the boat is." You know what happens next.

There must be something wrong with me, that makes perfect sense...



#95 Balder

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:17 AM

Couldnt read all the posts so I hope this wasnt covered, but according to my FB sailing friends in Anacortes someone they know personally (i know his name, but I don't know if that is appropriate to post here) had to be rescued from the engine room by chopping thru the hull with an axe.



#96 ProaSailor

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:45 AM

http://q13fox.com/20.../#axzz32ECW4kmF
 
pi2.png
 
 
http://www.komonews....-259794431.html
 

One of the crew members, Wade Benda, said he still doesn't know what went wrong, but he's glad he got out alive.

"To see it all in the water like that it's kind of tough," he said.

Benda, the yacht's mechanic, is part of the team that spent two and a half years building the multi-million dollar vessel.
.
The yacht rolled without warning, leaving Benda and four other crew members trapped inside.

"I'm relieved that I'm here on the ground and I just want to thank the good Lord above that, I'm here it was just a scary moment," Benda said.

Benda said he thinks the boat's starboard stabilizer hit some rocks when it initially rolled near the boat ramp. He said they tried to "thrust" the boat back into deeper water. Shortly after that they got into deeper trouble

"We just braced ourselves," Benda said. "I have no idea what went wrong."


140519_boat_big.jpg



#97 Mud sailor

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 04:50 AM

I'm with Jerry....launching calculations nails it for me, big issues can occur.

The other thing to remember, Northern is NOT the same yard as it was 10 years ago, that one went Bankrupt and the assets went to a new company with new financing, not a shell game like some other boat builders bankruptcies, it is a totally new company

#98 ProaSailor

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:01 AM

A FB photo taken the day before:

 

Baden_fb1.jpg

 

 

Flat tire at the bow?

 

Baden_fb2.jpg



#99 ProaSailor

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:17 AM

New yacht capsizes upon launch in Anacortes
http://www.goskagit....1a4bcf887a.html
 

... capsized Sunday night immediately after being launched near 30th Street.
[...]
Police Capt. Lou D’Amelio said the boat was getting launched for the first time around 9 p.m. Sunday when it began to roll onto its side in shallow water. As it began to roll, several people went into the engine room to adjust ballast.

It continued to roll, and the engine room began to flood. Most of the workers on board were easily rescued, but one man was trapped inside.

Anacortes officer and Navy veteran Scott Ray used an ax to chop out a port hole and rescue the man, D’Amelio said. The man was treated for minor cuts and scrapes from being pulled through the port hole.
[...]
Wes Fridell, representative of New World Yacht Builders, d.b.a. Northern Marine, was there during the launch and said the yacht had only 120 gallons of diesel in the tank, a small amount for the first launch. It is built to hold about 11,000 gallons, he said.

He described watching the event unfold as “sickening” and something he’d never seen happen before.

“It just at one point lurched at its cradle. We don’t know exactly why at this point because the cradle had been inspected and is sound. And then we reinspected everything before we proceeded. … Once it floated in the water, it went over. So we do not know the cause at this point,” he said Monday.

The multimillion-dollar yacht had been under construction for 2 1/2 years. The fiberglass hull may be only minimally damaged or easily repaired, Fridell said. “But everything inside is toast — everything. Nothing’s made to be submerged in salt water.”

Marine salvors were planning to attempt to right the boat at high tide late Monday night, Fridell said.

He anticipated that straps would be put through holes on both sides of the boat and that a crane would be used to help slowly upright it at high tide.



#100 familysailor

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:20 AM

 
 
 
 
 
 



Here she is on the trailer just before launch
 
attachicon.gifNorthernmarine90.jpg
 
 
 
 
 



 



Witnesses said the 90-foot yacht flipped as it was being launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday.
 
http://www.komonews....-259794431.html

"launched at about 9 p.m. Sunday"? That's a very odd time to launch a boat.
High tide
Looks like they added one too many lawyers on the wedding cake....
That's what they've got on thier hands now.

Funny comment. Hey! If you're going to edit someone else's post at least make the change apparent. You know the standard strike through followed by the standard, "fixed that for ya!" or something more amusing. Some of my best friends are lawyers, I don't want them getting the wrong impression.

My insults are much worse and delivered in person... :mellow: ;)






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