Jump to content


And if you are the obstruction... What then?

Protest defend fair play? Rules

  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 gbr-aligator

gbr-aligator

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  • Location:CT

Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:03 AM

Recent race, scenario as follows:
In the lead pack, approaching weather mark on port tack approx 6 boat lengths for the circle. Tack inside and in front of lead boat on starboard tack layline. But it's a bad tack, and a winch wrap causes a major problem. Boat gets rolled to weather by the starboard tacker. Not a foul called or claimed at this point. All fair.
But it's a bad wrap... Still not cleared... Boat now goes head to wind to try and clear the wrap, ends up dead in the water, near the mark head to wind and the bulk of the fleet starts to bear down... Skipper of wrapped boat hails loudly and clearly that he has no way/steerage and is unable to keep clear of the approaching pack. One boat calls protest as they approach and has to make room to avoid us - the obstruction - all while on starboard.

We, the wrapped boat, eventually gets around the mark in last spot. Penalty enough, or should a e do turns too? As an obstruction, can you be at fault? Regardless of whether we were on port or starboard or had mark room or any of that (some of which probably applied if anything applied)...

Well can you? Which rules apply? If she is dead in the water, what is she suppose to do?

#2 HobieAnarchy

HobieAnarchy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,796 posts
  • Location:Imported from Detroit

Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:23 AM

When you tacked in the zone, you were subject to rule 13 and rule 18.3.  As soon as you bore away to a close hauled course, rule 13 shuts off, but 18.3 stays on - until you get around the mark.

 

If any of the starboard tack parade was forced to sail above close hauled to avoid you, then you broke 18.3(a).

 

It sucks, but you still need to do a two-turns penalty to exonerate yourself.  Poor boat handling is not a defense to breaking the rules.



#3 SailChiTown

SailChiTown

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 166 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:27 AM

You seemed to tack outside the zone, given that fact, you were ROW boat to all aproching boats. As long as you never crossed HTW, no penalty.

#4 Tunnel Rat

Tunnel Rat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,314 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:54 AM

Recent race, scenario as follows:
In the lead pack, approaching weather mark on port tack approx 6 boat lengths for the circle. Tack inside and in front of lead boat on starboard tack layline. But it's a bad tack, and a winch wrap causes a major problem. Boat gets rolled to weather by the starboard tacker. Not a foul called or claimed at this point. All fair.
But it's a bad wrap... Still not cleared... Boat now goes head to wind to try and clear the wrap, ends up dead in the water, near the mark head to wind and the bulk of the fleet starts to bear down... Skipper of wrapped boat hails loudly and clearly that he has no way/steerage and is unable to keep clear of the approaching pack. One boat calls protest as they approach and has to make room to avoid us - the obstruction - all while on starboard.

We, the wrapped boat, eventually gets around the mark in last spot. Penalty enough, or should a e do turns too? As an obstruction, can you be at fault? Regardless of whether we were on port or starboard or had mark room or any of that (some of which probably applied if anything applied)...

Well can you? Which rules apply? If she is dead in the water, what is she suppose to do?

What do you mean by the bolded bits? Does it mean you were six lengths from the 3-boat-length circle when you tacked, or that the rules were amended to a six length circle? 

 

Did you tack in the circle or not? 

 

Did the boat come to a close-hauled course after the tack, regardless of how the sails were trimmed?



#5 HobieAnarchy

HobieAnarchy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,796 posts
  • Location:Imported from Detroit

Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:57 AM

If you tacked outside the zone, and assuming you completed your tack by bearing off to a close-hauled course, you're leeward boat on starboard tack - windward boats and port tack boats must keep clear (rules 10 and 11), even if you have no way on. Overtaking boats must also keep clear (rule 12).

 

But if you go past head to wind (back towards port tack), rule 13 switches on and you must keep clear.



#6 Major Tom

Major Tom

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 865 posts
  • Location:Darkest Africa
  • Interests:Dinghy sailing, and good red wine!

Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:36 AM

How can you go from being an obstruction to carrying on in the race? You are either racing or you aren't, so either do the relevant penalties if applicable or retire.

#7 Brass

Brass

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,582 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:01 AM

How can you go from being an obstruction to carrying on in the race? You are either racing or you aren't, so either do the relevant penalties if applicable or retire.

A boat [that is entered in the race] is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires (Definitions:  racing).

 

A boat that is racing becomes an obstruction when she is a right of way boat, or if she is capsized, anchored, aground or trying to give help, but there is nothing in the definition of racing that suggests that a boat that does one of the things that makes her an obstruction either retires or otherwise is not racing.

 

Being an obstruction as in this case by way of being a right of way boat, makes no difference to a boat's obligations under the rules.

 

There are plenty of times when a boat that is racing may intentionally be not making way through the water.

 

Key thing that is going to make the boat in this case into 'not an obstruction' is if she passes head to wind, and becomes the give way boat to the oncoming starboard tackers.



#8 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,352 posts
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:55 AM

Sounds to me like the boat in the OP, as long as it never went past HTW, maintained all her rights as a starboard tack, leeward and clear ahead, with rights to mark room boat.  Even if another boat had to avoid her to round the mark, the stalled boat in question still had ROW over all other boats that were approaching from behind.  True?



#9 Tunnel Rat

Tunnel Rat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,314 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:25 AM

Sounds to me like the boat in the OP, as long as it never went past HTW, maintained all her rights as a starboard tack, leeward and clear ahead, with rights to mark room boat.  Even if another boat had to avoid her to round the mark, the stalled boat in question still had ROW over all other boats that were approaching from behind.  True?

It depends on whether they completed their tack onto starboard.  If they never reached their closehauled course on starboard then they are constrained by Rule 13. 



#10 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,028 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:58 AM

Dammit Brass, you take all the fun out of these rules threads with your clearly stated and accurate posts.

:rolleyes:

 

Since a winch wrap would not prevent anything else on the boat from working, IMHO it's safe to assume the boat completed her tack and assumed right-of-way over boats astern and on port and to windward (especially those passing to windward). That means tough luck to all the boats who were inconvenienced in their windward mark rounding.

 

Did any of the competitors offer assistance as they went by? Might be good to remind the fleet they are obligated to come to the aid of vessels in distress B)

 

FB- Doug



#11 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,352 posts
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:00 PM

Sounds to me like the boat in the OP, as long as it never went past HTW, maintained all her rights as a starboard tack, leeward and clear ahead, with rights to mark room boat.  Even if another boat had to avoid her to round the mark, the stalled boat in question still had ROW over all other boats that were approaching from behind.  True?

It depends on whether they completed their tack onto starboard.  If they never reached their closehauled course on starboard then they are constrained by Rule 13. 

 

True, but if you read the OP, it appears they did complete the tack but because of the wrap, went back into wind to try to clear it.  He even talks about the boat rolling them to Wx which implies they were close hauled or the other boat would have had to avoid them.  Makes sense to me.... as a driver - having the jib sheet wrap would not have stopped me from completing the tack.  So its likely he went all the way to stbd close hauled and then back into wind to try to clear it.



#12 JohnMB

JohnMB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,205 posts
  • Location:Evanston
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:10 PM

There are two ways to be an obstruction as a boat racing.

1. If you have right of way

2. If rule 23 applies (anchored aground, capsized or recovering from capsize)

 

case 1 you don't owe penalties unless you fail to give room to someone you owe room to. (i.e. R18 stuff is possible, but need more details on facts, based on what we know it seems unlikely)

case 2 doesn't apply here.



#13 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,698 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:49 PM

a diagram would help...



#14 Kenny Dumas

Kenny Dumas

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 668 posts
  • Location:Oregon

Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:20 PM

Next time use a knife.  Cut the right side of the bowline and you only lose ~6 inches of sheet.  Cost about 50 cents and you round the mark and are gone.  It should be almost automatic to cut the sheet if you have a wrap with any significant wind / possibility of complication / damage.  One of those times when if you really think about it ahead of time, you'll just cut it next time.



#15 fallsailor

fallsailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Location:Norwalk, CT
  • Interests:Sailing, racing, hiking, kayaking, snowshoeing, yoga, rum... girls that like that stuff too.

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:23 PM

a diagram would help...

 

Or as Capt Jack Sparrow would say...

 

"A drawing of a diagram"



#16 Tunnel Rat

Tunnel Rat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,314 posts

Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:58 AM

 

Sounds to me like the boat in the OP, as long as it never went past HTW, maintained all her rights as a starboard tack, leeward and clear ahead, with rights to mark room boat.  Even if another boat had to avoid her to round the mark, the stalled boat in question still had ROW over all other boats that were approaching from behind.  True?

It depends on whether they completed their tack onto starboard.  If they never reached their closehauled course on starboard then they are constrained by Rule 13. 

 

True, but if you read the OP, it appears they did complete the tack but because of the wrap, went back into wind to try to clear it.  He even talks about the boat rolling them to Wx which implies they were close hauled or the other boat would have had to avoid them.  Makes sense to me.... as a driver - having the jib sheet wrap would not have stopped me from completing the tack.  So its likely he went all the way to stbd close hauled and then back into wind to try to clear it.

Agreed.  There is no reason not to complete the tack........but that doesn't always mean it happens like that! :)



#17 gbr-aligator

gbr-aligator

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  • Location:CT

Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:19 AM

It was a few weeks ago now... Honestly not sure if these fine details can be accurately recalled.
We tacked well outside the circle. Six boat lengths or so... Inside the other leading boat. No suggestion of any foul being called by them.

At that point we were definitely on stb on layline. To clear that wrap I pushed the boat back towards head to wind. Even head to wind, there was not a lot of slack in the sheet and it took a few moments for them to wrestle it free. In that time the boat came to a complete stop (in irons) and the rest of the pack descended on us.

Clearly the key element is whether we turned back through head to wind and back onto port during the wrap-freeing part of the maneuver. I'll poll the team on this next time I see them... I'm honestly not sure.

For the record, we did not do turns, and the protest was not followed through with. That does not mean I won't apologies and learn a lesson if consensus is that we broke a rule. Ultimately the result made no difference in the final analysis, nothing got broken, and no people hurt so I'm not going to lose sleep over it but at the time it caused a few head scratching beard stroking moments as we pondered our predicament.

Thanks for the education!

#18 gbr-aligator

gbr-aligator

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts
  • Location:CT

Posted 11 June 2014 - 02:23 AM

Next time use a knife.  Cut the right side of the bowline and you only lose ~6 inches of sheet.  Cost about 50 cents and you round the mark and are gone.  It should be almost automatic to cut the sheet if you have a wrap with any significant wind / possibility of complication / damage.  One of those times when if you really think about it ahead of time, you'll just cut it next time.

How does it cost 50c? After you've cut it, it's either long enough or it's not. If it's long enough then it cost you nothing, but if it's not then it's a couple of hundred bucks.

Me guessing you are not the one paying the bills.

#19 JimC

JimC

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,770 posts
  • Location:South East England
  • Interests:Dinghies, especially box rule classes.

Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:12 AM

Next time use a knife.  Cut the right side of the bowline and you only lose ~6 inches of sheet.  

 

On any boat I pay for the ropes on 6 inches of sheet lost means its not long enough and game over for the day.



#20 xyzzy

xyzzy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 407 posts

Posted 13 June 2014 - 02:28 AM

If the OP did pass HtW back on to port, would then R15 & R16.1 come in to play if any of the fleet changed course toward him while he was stuck in irons? For instance a boat above the layline who will miss the OP bears away as they approach the mark, onto a collision course, and then protests when the keep-clear boat in irons doesn't get out of the way.

#21 Brass

Brass

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,582 posts

Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:06 AM

If the OP did pass HtW back on to port, would then R15 & R16.1 come in to play if any of the fleet changed course toward him while he was stuck in irons? For instance a boat above the layline who will miss the OP bears away as they approach the mark, onto a collision course, and then protests when the keep-clear boat in irons doesn't get out of the way.

Rule 15:  No:  the other boat acquires right of way because of the tacking boat's actions.

 

Rule 16:  , Yes, if the approaching boat changes course, but the tacking boat has to do everything (seamanlike) that she can, including, if appropriate, backing sails, making a sternboard and so on.



#22 learningj24

learningj24

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,847 posts

Posted 13 June 2014 - 11:23 AM

Slight hijack: Would the wrapped boat have been better off dropping the headsail and rounding rather than fighting the wrap? It strikes me that dropping the headsail and getting the spinnaker up (why would you go downwind without one?) would have been faster and given time to get the wrap off. Even if there was no spin, headsail down and heading toward the next mark seems faster than a Flail X into traffic.

Anecdote: Used to sail around a guy that would start to round up, call "vessel out of control" and continue racing after recovering, regardless of what rule he broke. Not a fun guy to be on the course with.

#23 No.6

No.6

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,200 posts
  • Location:Portmeirion
  • Interests:Danger

Posted 14 June 2014 - 11:36 AM

Wait, an over-ride you say?
Does Dacapon sail with you by any chance?
Just asking, read nothing into that.

#24 gargamel

gargamel

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Location:NE Ohio

Posted 14 June 2014 - 11:49 AM

Slight Hijack:

Anecdote: Used to sail around a guy that would start to round up, call "vessel out of control" and continue racing after recovering, regardless of what rule he broke. Not a fun guy to be on the course with.

 

I can't find a rule that defines obligations after declaring this, It's an outside conversation we're having and I'd like to bring this in, any suggestions?



#25 Steam Flyer

Steam Flyer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,028 posts
  • Location:Eastern NC

Posted 14 June 2014 - 01:01 PM

Slight hijack: Would the wrapped boat have been better off dropping the headsail and rounding rather than fighting the wrap? It strikes me that dropping the headsail and getting the spinnaker up (why would you go downwind without one?) would have been faster and given time to get the wrap off. Even if there was no spin, headsail down and heading toward the next mark seems faster than a Flail X into traffic.
... ...

 

Better idea that cutting the jib sheet, although that might be necessary in the end anyway. At least you'd be making progress around the course. Leadership- clear thinking and goal-oriented... the crew is focused on details like the ropes & winches, getting them to stop their shouting and tugging and get to work on something completely different might require some strong direction.

 

 

 

Slight Hijack:

Anecdote: Used to sail around a guy that would start to round up, call "vessel out of control" and continue racing after recovering, regardless of what rule he broke. Not a fun guy to be on the course with.

 

I can't find a rule that defines obligations after declaring this, It's an outside conversation we're having and I'd like to bring this in, any suggestions?

 

No, it's just infield chatter. No force under the rules, like a port-tack boat hailing "hold your course" to a starboard-tacker. Next time he does it, DSQ him.

 

FB- Doug







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Protest, defend, fair play?, Rules

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users