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Keel strike


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#1 jabrams

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 01:45 PM

Was sailing yesterday afternoon in tampa bay on a reach at 7 knots when suddenly came to a sudden stop. The depth at that time was 14 feet. I looked all around and never saw anything in the water. No water in the bilge of cracks around the keel bolts. Come back in with no problem and she sailed same as before the strike. Figure there was some large submerged object. Will have the keel inspected by a diver this week. What should they look for and anything else I should look for inside the boat.

Thanks
Jody Abrams
J105 Ariel

#2 Geezer47

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 01:59 PM

J-105, seen this before.  You are probably gonna need to haul the boat (diver will probably only see/feel crack at front of keel).  The aft end of the keel pushes up on the hull causing some flex.  Usually results in stringers busting loose.  Front of keel pulls hull down causing front of keel/hull joint to crack and bust loose tabbing for main bulkhead.  Expensive fix when done right.  New stringers, re-tab main bulkhead, fixing forward section necessitates removing the floor liner in the head performing repair then re-installing floor pan.  Floor pan is also part of the mast base support system.  Don't forget it all has to be done with the keel and hull correctly oriented.  Only us a GREAT repair facility with previous experience....you are not the first.  Sorry for you troubles and hope it all turns out well.   Time to call the Insurance Co.



#3 Geezer47

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:01 PM

And...if your asking what to look for on this forum.....you NEED a professional.



#4 jabrams

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:21 PM

Thanks. I am getting a professional and have a great yard, was just trying to educate myself also.
Will get her hauled out. Thanks

#5 ~HHN92~

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 02:31 PM

When you pull the boat call Mike Gable/Gable Enterprises. He is just completing a repair on a J35 for the same issue and has done the same for a 105 in the past, so he knows the routine. He also knows how to work with the insurance company to get things done and when completed the boat will be better than new.

 

As in your case the diver did not see much damage, other than the chunk out of the front of the keel, but when the boat was pulled later for bottom work the keel was moving quite a bit, and the cracks did not really show until the bottom dried and the cracks started weeping.



#6 Geezer47

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 12:07 AM

Glad to hear that you will be taken care of.  Very hard to see damage up front from the inside due to the floor pan,  aft...look at he stringers and see if there are any cracks in the glasswork that holds them to the hull, that is where you'll most likely see damage.  What you won't see is the compromised glass in front and back of the keel as the gelcoat will hide it.  Haven't heard of one damaging the keel bolts, movement is fairly "monolithic"  where the lead attaches to the keel stump. 



#7 JACO

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 01:23 AM

I'll stray a little from the opinion of a prior entry and say that if you don't see any damage in the gelcoat then you are likely safe for the glass laminate beneath it.  The gelcoat on a J-Boat is, as a rule, pretty damn thick.  And that gelcoat is far more brittle than the glass laminate.  Remove the bottom paint all around the keel to sump joint (well below the turn of the sump into the hull) and up through the turn of the sump into the bottom.  If you inspect those areas and do not see any spider cracking then dollars to doughnuts the laminate is OK.  If you want to be belt & suspenders about it grind away the glecoat, but if it's OK then I'll bet the glass is. 

That said - if you went from 7kts to zippy like that then it won't be fine.  Probably will find lots of spidering.  Grind it down to glass and inspect for glass damage.  Check out the aftmost stringers as they will take the brunt of compression in a grounding.  You don't mention your hull #, and not all 105's are created equal, but as a rule they are pretty robust boats. 



#8 jabrams

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 02:31 AM

She is hull 264. 1999 built boat. Will know more this week. Any spider cracks and mike gables gets a call. He did the fairing on this boat already when glazer owned her so he is the only one that gets to redo her.
Thanks for all the input.

#9 Geezer47

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 03:16 AM

Hey Jaco, only counter point I'd make about the gelcoat is that it is not "finish" gelcoat and usually does not have gloss additives and in that area not subject to much UV exposure, making it more flexible than what you'd find on the deck and hull exterior.  Do grind into it to make sure....even if you see nothing wrong.  Don't want to pull a CR!



#10 Gouvernail

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 04:24 AM

Back to the original post.

What about this sudden stop?!
Was it like hitting a big rock??
was it Like dragging to a still op on sand?
A
Was it like hitting a giant cable?

Was it like smacking a boat that was sunk?

Did you immediately resume free movement ?

Did the boat get stuck ?

While stuck was there twisting and potential scraping and grinding?

Was it silent after the initial stop or did you bum pity bump your way loose?

Was it like broadsiding a huge fish or not?

--------
I would certainly ask a whole lot of questions like the above before I went looking for damage as I would have a better idea where to focus my attention

Note: as our lake dropped fifty feet five years ago we all discovered a half mile like nearly perfectly vertical limestone wall whose top is at about 655 above sea level . Normal lake levels range from 660 to 681 and we have seen occasional damages from sudden stops for years.

But the bottom the wall is well below 620.... As we saw when the lake went to 617 last summer.
New folks are in disbelief that we used to blithely sail over the top of the adjacent plateau

I can't wait till we get to do so again

#11 jabrams

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 10:35 AM

I was a sudden hard jolt with reduction of speed from 6.5 knots less then 2 and then quickly back up to speed. It did not spin the boat, felt like what ever it was went past fairly quickly. I do not remember any grinding noises just the large bam sound and the jolt.
Glad here in tampa there are no subsurface limestone walls.

#12 ~HHN92~

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 10:59 AM

What was the location where you had the hit? I know of an 'object' just off of Davis Island that a number of boats have struck including the old SC50 'Flank Speed' that hung-up on it and barely got un-stuck just before the 5 min gun on an Egmont race.



#13 jabrams

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 01:48 AM

We were about a 1/2 mile northeast of the red 2 of the manatee river.
Are you talking about the sunken barge near Davis island. Heard about that. Hitting that has to hurt.

#14 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 04:25 AM

Maybe a manatee or other large aquatic life.  1200 lb mammal on your keel will slow you down quick.



#15 ~HHN92~

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 11:27 AM

We were about a 1/2 mile northeast of the red 2 of the manatee river.
Are you talking about the sunken barge near Davis island. Heard about that. Hitting that has to hurt.

 

The barge is at the point of MacDill just west of the Teco 'Private Maintained' tower, and after a brand new J105 struck it back around '99 a mark has been placed there. That strike shattered the whole area of the bottom around the keel and Gable had the job of fixing it.

 

The 'object' near DI is almost in-line with the runway at Peter O'Knight near the 'H' mark of the club's race set. Some have said is an engine block from a plane that crashed, others an old iron beam from a mark that was knocked down years ago.



#16 jabrams

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 01:58 AM

Boat was hauled out today. Looks like I will be on the hard for a bit. Wish I could figure out what it was that we hit. The is a crack around the front edge running about 2/3 of the way aft about 2 feet from the hull, and then where the trailing edge connects to the hull there are cracks. Next step it to find out about the stingers and such but think good chance they are affected.
Thanks for all the info.

#17 ~HHN92~

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 02:18 AM

Salt Creek?



#18 jabrams

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 02:24 AM

No, snead island.

#19 jabrams

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 02:24 AM

No, snead island.

#20 ~HHN92~

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 02:38 AM

Nice bathhouse there. Best of luck and hope things go as good as possible. The 35 is supposed to splash Monday so hopefully MG can get right on her.



#21 jabrams

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:10 AM

Went over the keel yesterday with yard manager. He thinks we hit a sunk derilict boat. Apparently people take their old useless boats and sink them at night so they do not have to store them. Would like to find these people and keel haul them. We are out for a while. There are cracks on the interior so lot of work to be done.

#22 ~HHN92~

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 02:59 AM

Sad to hear that. Your damage sounds very much like the 105 that hit the barge.



#23 Wet Spreaders

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:35 PM

There is a keel sump upgrade to J105s that several boats have had done here in SF Bay. If you are tearing-up the sump and rebedding the keel, you may as well have that fix done as part of the effort. Older "post scrimp" - about #150 - until a few years ago (#500 or so, I don't remember the exact numbers) have a tendency to get floppy. The bottom of the boat either side of the keel flexes and moves when you push on the keel with the boat in the slings. The fix stiffens the boat and makes sure that the stringers are properly bonded. The fix seems to work well - no issues with any of the boats after the fix to my knowledge. J-Boats can give you details. They can be a little cagey about it because no-one really enjoys keel-issue discussions, but the issue is real, the fix is real and it works well - why not do the work if you are in there anyway, particularly if insurance picks up some of the tab?



#24 arr4ws

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 05:09 PM

Yikes. Good luck man.

This sucks major balls

#25 jabrams

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 02:40 PM

Well after insurance review and approval Ariel is heading from Snead island to Mike Gabel for repairs. Looks like the grid was damaged as well as the keel itself. We are out for a while but she will live to fight another day

#26 Rasputin22

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 04:34 PM

     Someone should go drag a cable in that area and find the obstruction. Did you hit the MOB when you banged it. Shouldn't be hard to find if so. If it is a derelict boat try and identify and go after the scuttlers. Mark the damn thing at least.

 

     I had finished a fun race with a Kids sailing group down in the Islands in a J-22 and was getting towed back to the mooring after a race awards and celebration by one of our youth sailors in the whaler chase boat. It was just about dark and I was standing on the side deck holding to a shroud and saw the kid towing us look down into the water and a scared look come on his face. He turned to me and started to yell as he cut the throttle and we hit the submerged hulk of an old wooden sailboat that had sunk at its mooring. The angle of the keel and the turn of the bilge of the hulk was such that the J jumped all the way out of the water and pitched bow down and I went flying and bounced off the hulk myself. The J didn't quite clear the hurdle and slipped back down the way it had come which nearly pulled the whaler with motor still idling into me in the water. Short tow rope and going to fast, at least the kid got it in neutral before backing into me. My wife was just coming up the companionway with our baby in her arms on impact and flew back into the cabin and landed on her back at the main bulkhead but had a good grip on the kid and was just shaken up. I twisted my wrist pretty good trying to hold on to that skinny shroud and had some barnacle bites but we were all pretty lucky that it wasn't worse. It took a bit of extra tabbing in the keel sump of the J22 but not really much of a grid or anything in such a small boat and I was surprised at how well it survived. The hulk, not so much. The sailing club had a steel workboat come run over the thing and pretty much broke it up or pushed in down into the muck. 



#27 HHN92

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 02:33 AM

Like he told our guys: "if you hit something again you better be holding-on tight because the keel is not going to give......"

 

Best of luck with the repairs, Mike will make her better than new.



#28 raol

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 07:18 AM

Did you have a GPS logger running at the time? If so, it should be easy to find the position again just by looking at the where the speed is taking a dive and then going back up again the way you described.



#29 jabrams

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:35 AM

I had the gps on but not in log mode. And did not think of the mob button until later. Was more concerned about was everyone on board ok and then were we taking on water.
Mike said the same thing to me.

#30 chaos!341

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 06:49 PM

I was delivering a boat out of tampa bay about 20 years ago...

water was fairly smooth with good visibility and moving along at a little over 6kt...

one of the crew suddenly hollered hard port!...hard port!....

turned the wheel as fast as I could. We narrowly missed hitting a shipping container that was barely breaking the surface...

had a couple more encounters like that in shipping lanes over the last 20 years.....

 

if we had whacked it I believe we would have sunk the boat....



#31 ~HHN92~

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:12 PM

^^ I've never seen that before in the bay but a ton of other junk after a storm has flushed it into the bay.



#32 Matt Strand

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:05 PM

Hit West Clump (Fisher's Island Sound, CT) in 2012 on my second sail ever with a J/29 MH.  Going about 7 on the way in, started seeing grass in the middle of the sound  - which merited an "oh shit" - and just yelled at everyone to hold on.  Proceeded to crash tack & backwind, which must have slowed it to about 3 before we hit the rocks.  Outgoing tide, stuck hard over.  Donzos must have all been laughing that Wednesday... learned a good lesson about Fisher's Island though.  And was certainly glad for insurance!  

Anyway no structural damage.  I'd never grounded before so I didn't know how much it would take - I thought I had ripped it clean off for sure.  But when we pulled it the guy was like "huh.  It's fine!  Just some lead fairing..."  Survey & repair & back out 1 month later.  

 

Now I know the Sound.  Still have no idea how to sail the damned boat.  Musicman is working on it... 



#33 jabrams

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:27 AM

I wish we were that lucky. Looks like it will be october sometime before we are back and going. Frame work is cut out and today was the sanding of the inside hull to look at the glass for any delam damage. I know it will be back to top notch when Gabel is done with it, but I might drive my wife crazy waiting on it. Luckily have some really good guys around who let me sail on their j 24 at the club so I get a little of my fix, but really jonesing for my boat back. We were just starting to get acquainted. I agree glad for insurance at this point. 






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