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#1801 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 05:29 PM

--

 

 

Published on Jan 8, 2016

Winning the America's Cup in 2017 will be a monumental task that requires a full team pulling in the same directions. Meet some of the people on ORACLE TEAM USA who are making critical contributions to help us achieve our goal.



#1802 ~Stingray~

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 06:23 PM

--

Published on Jan 8, 2016

Laird flies to Bermuda to the Oracle Team USA compound. He meets with America's Cup skipper Jimmy Spithill to discuss the future of foiling and the size of their garages....

 



#1803 nav

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 09:22 PM

Been a while since I have looked at AC forum, so I am note quite sure to post this link about OTUSA foil technology (apologies if it has been posted elsewhere).

http://www.catsailin...oil-design.html.

This is the sort of stuff I find most interesting about the AC.

Note the (sort of) transom hung rudders and bow down attitude.

Also interesting that the some of the As (at the A Nats) are now foiling comfortably downwind without uptip foils with some reports of spurts of upwind foiling.

Suspect this foil development has a long, long way to go.

 

Thanks, the video had been posted here somewhere but the article is new.

The article misnames the boats though as AC45s (which are the one-designs used in the ACWS)

The boats in the video and photo are the test and development boats for the slightly larger (15m) ACC boats to be used in the 'AC proper'. For that reason you can't read too much into foil position as it's not necessarily optimised for the platform it's on but rather to replicate the placement/relationship under the ACC rule (which doesn't allow transom hung rudders).



#1804 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 12:55 AM

--
"We're looking forward to getting sailing again in a week or so and getting back into our routine," said Tom Slingsby. helmsman and sailing team manager.

"We need to get our fitness back up (certainly I do!!), get back into our meeting schedule so we can contribute to making some good design decisions that need to get locked in over the next few months."
http://oracle-team-u...aily-grind.html

#1805 nav

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 05:47 AM

^ To lead at every mark and win every race of every series  :lol:



#1806 nav

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 05:52 AM

 

--

 

 

Published on Jan 8, 2016

Winning the America's Cup in 2017 will be a monumental task that requires a full team pulling in the same directions. Meet some of the people on ORACLE TEAM USA who are making critical contributions to help us achieve our goal.

 

 

Respect within the team, they say - remarkable then how little they have shown for their competitors, the (non-pet) officials and the rules. New leaf?

 

Lets hope so....



#1807 ~Stingray~

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:44 PM




Published on Jan 12, 2016 With a couple gigabytes of data collected each day during training sessions, ORACLE TEAM USA relies on their Oracle database and Oracle hardware to store and analyze results. Ian Fresh Burns talks about that datas impact on performance in a #TechTuesday feature by John von Seeburg & Mike Herbener.

#1808 nav

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 06:46 AM

m591_crop169005_1280x720_14514995485659.

 

m595_crop169005_1280x720_1452543004E6D6.



#1809 nav

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 10:09 AM

 

@ 0:33 & 1:37

 

humpbackwhale_feature.jpg



#1810 nav

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 10:46 AM

ORACLE TEAM USA:

The defending champion finished the year in second place on the leaderboard, but isn’t satisfied with its racing performance. 
“I was actually disappointed with last year,” said Tom Slingsby, helmsman and sailing team manager for ORACLE TEAM USA. “Second is not good enough. We want to lead at every turn and win every race. So that’s our goal for the team this year.”
The team reconvened at its base at Dockyard in Bermuda this week following a long Christmas break excited to get back on the water.
“That was the longest break we’ll have in the campaign,” Slingsby said.
“It was important for everyone to come back refreshed and recharged and we can’t wait to get back on the water.”
They won’t have to wait long. ORACLE TEAM USA is planning to sail late next week with its second AC45S test boat. And boat three is scheduled to sail for the first time early in February.



#1811 schakel

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 12:21 PM

We want to lead at every turn and win every race. So that’s our goal for the team this year.”

Ambitious... Not a feasible plan I think.



#1812 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 11:11 PM


 
@ 0:33 & 1:37
 
humpbackwhale_feature.jpg

Had noticed that too.

It reminded me of this: http://ptsail.org/20...rudder-designs/

#1813 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 11:17 PM

An SA thread on that: http://forums.sailin...howtopic=162445

#1814 Doug Lord

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:01 AM

Did anyone see the flap on the stb main foil? About 1:43 in-or I'm seeing things......



#1815 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 04:12 AM

The tubercle discussion goes back ages.  We even did an interview with Dr. Frank E. Fish sometime in '09 or '10 and it was on a Hobie 33 in the mid 2000's.  Not as cool as Oracle's though!



#1816 ~Stingray~

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 09:45 PM


 
@ 0:33 & 1:37
 
humpbackwhale_feature.jpg

Had noticed that too.
Am not seeing it on replay, is it still there?


 
@ 0:33 & 1:37
 
humpbackwhale_feature.jpg

Had noticed that too.
Am not seeing it on replay, is it still there?

oops, dbl-post, new phone

#1817 nav

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 08:14 PM

ad. controls

some nice sailing action too

 



#1818 ~Stingray~

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:52 PM



He may be one of the youngest sailors on ORACLE TEAM USA, but Tom Johnson has rapidly moved through the elite sailing ranks - from top-level Moth and 49er racing to the Volvo Ocean Race and the Americas Cup. Now, hes quickly learning how to race high-performance catamarans with a competitive bunch. Video feature by John von Seeburg & Mike Herbener.

#1819 sclarke

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:16 PM

Looks like the roles have reversed for this AC cycle. Last time ETNZ was the team releasing all the video updates, and Oracle were keeping to themselves for the most part. ETNZ single handedly carried the last cup in terms of public interest. I guess now that ETNZ has switched its focus from appeasing the New Zealand public, to putting all their time into winning, Oracle has decided they need to step up their media campaign.



#1820 ~Stingray~

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 10:30 PM

Oracle has put out videos at a prolific rate for as long as I can remember, there could be over a thousand of them by now if you include the evolving entities since 2003. Among them are some absolutely terrific ones, a few of them with YouTube views of a half million or more.

You'd think that the guys doing team videos in recent cycles, and in this one, are under contract to work and produce at some rate; but that the intended audience may in many cases be for only the team (designers, sailors, shore, etc), or exclusively for just sponsors; and so we don't see all of the video footage also get posted to YouTube.

It's been nice to see TF and TJ also stepping up on the YouTube front, this could be a fun 18 months.

#1821 WetHog

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:55 AM

OR has team videos starting in 2003?  I'd love to see the ones from AC31.  Got a link?

 

WetHog   :ph34r:



#1822 ~Stingray~

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:51 PM

OR has team videos starting in 2003?  I'd love to see the ones from AC31.  Got a link?
 
WetHog   :ph34r:

Oops, you're right, 2003 is too early and also predates YouTube.

This one is at 750K+ views, it is one of my favorites too

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=Y6dnOlE9sjk

#1823 barfy

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:25 AM

oh what fun to watch..

10 years off your 2003 you pulled from thin air tho



#1824 ~Stingray~

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 12:50 AM

oh what fun to watch..
10 years off your 2003 you pulled from thin air tho

What makes 'what' fun?

Do the masters-degree research on the subject of what teams have published the most, or best, or most-watched videos, since any time in history. Any counter ' thin air' by you is gonna fall way short but since you took issue? Let's see it.

Someone, who knows who, at Oracle Racing decided to allocate increased budget to video, including to publicly available YouTube videos, and the numbers since certainly 2010 would prove a convincing case for that. I'd bet on it.

A bunch of posters here are NZ fans and for whatever all reasons hate the Defender, and I get that. But if their team can't even compete in promo, well that's completely their own fault or choice. Truth is, imho the best piece by far so far was the ETNZ piece in Bermuda where one morning the guy went toward the swimming pool but then instead dived off the rock wall into the ocean. It was at least as good as the sailing video that followed, including the team's low-key victory reaction.

#1825 dogwatch

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 06:49 AM

 



This one is at 750K+ views, it is one of my favorites too

 

 

Which is something around 0.03% of the views of "Gangnam Style". Hundreds of thousands isn't a lot. Hundreds of millions is beginning to be a lot. Makes you think. https://en.wikipedia..._YouTube_videos



#1826 nav

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 04:22 PM

OS2

CZVR9-FVAAAMacg.jpg

with work on vip island in the background

 

OS3

CZVR984UkAEhyCi.jpg



#1827 nav

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 12:47 PM

Also out Friday along with Oracle Junior

 

Switch to manual...

 

m618_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_14

 

JS interview and 'landfill' via (shitty) video https://www.facebook...?type=2

 

m620_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_14



#1828 WetHog

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:49 AM

OS2

CZVR9-FVAAAMacg.jpg

with work on vip island in the background

 

OS3

CZVR984UkAEhyCi.jpg

 

Can I get clarification on where OS2 and OS3 rank in regards to the actual boat OR will race to defend?  Will there be a OS4?  Was OS1 given to Team Soft Dick Japan?  Way out of the loop and I am trying to catch up a bit. ;)

 

WetHog   :ph34r:



#1829 ~Stingray~

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 03:03 AM

Yes, SoftBank Team Japan acquired the oldest Oracle Racing test boat, 'OS1.'

After whatever mods, that boat may as well be called 'TJ1' until they launch their next one.

Team Japan may well have the highest budget of them all, it's hard to tell so far.

#1830 nav

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:21 PM

Funny, but they still look like they are doing things on the cheap.

I expect the whole thing was set up by RC, including the sponsor (IT buddy of LE?), and it's very much a sideline - Oracle Junior.

Still they are there, with a boat and a base - more than some.

Time will tell



#1831 GauchoGreg

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 09:46 PM

Funny, but they still look like they are doing things on the cheap.

I expect the whole thing was set up by RC, including the sponsor (IT buddy of LE?), and it's very much a sideline - Oracle Junior.

Still they are there, with a boat and a base - more than some.

Time will tell

 

If your personal wealth is $15 Billion, are you content to be someone else's bitch/poodle?  I will never understand that contention.  If I'm going to have a little hobby sailing team and compete for the AC, and I have that kind of dough, I don't see a reason not to make it a real effort.  I'm guessing that is the instructions Masayoshi Son has given Barker/Fuku....  try to win the damned thing, and I will give you at least enough money to make it a real effort.



#1832 ~Stingray~

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 10:52 PM

+1, that team could be a real threat come crunch time

#1833 nav

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 11:35 AM

12418894_981850168518696_844044461331831

 

12646796_981850645185315_909316761734243

 

12640317_981851141851932_203450448833806

@ facebook



#1834 ~Stingray~

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 10:59 PM




Design team member Christoph Erbelding talks us through the challenge of designing and building the perfect foil - the wingsail that powers the boat forward at speeds approaching 50 mph.
#TechTuesday video by Javier Salinas / ORACLE TEAM USA.

#1835 ~Stingray~

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 09:23 PM




Join an ORACLE TEAM USA gym session in 360 degrees. The sailing team was divided into two groups - pan to the left and watch aerobic tempo grinding; pan to the right for the lower body strength training group. Every day the team is in this gym at their base at the Royal Naval Dockyard in Bermuda. Video captured by John von Seeburg & Mike Herbener on a 360fly camera.

#1836 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 09:59 PM



ORACLE TEAM USA has teamed up with AC Endeavour to get 15 Optimist dinghies into the hands of recent Endeavour 'graduates'. The Optimists were old and disused boats, donated by the Royal Hamilton Amateur Dinghy Club in Bermuda, and restored to 'as new' condition by ORACLE TEAM USA boatbulders. While 15 boats have been recycled to date, hopefully this is just the start and more yacht clubs and sailing programs around the world take on this kind of recycling project to get more kids out on the water.

#1837 nav

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 08:18 PM

Tech...

 

 

https://video-frt3-1...d41&oe=56B14E61

 

less detail = very high resolution. :blink:

 

Wow that's high-level engineering right there....



#1838 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 11:46 PM

^
ORACLE TEAM USA is creating virtual wind tunnels and towing tanks through computational fluid mechanics tools. Designer Len Imas discusses the use of the different simulation software - RANS (Reynolds-averaged Navier-Stokes) and Lattis Boltzmann methods - in this #TechTuesday feature by Javier Salinas.

#1839 schakel

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 12:09 PM

^
ORACLE TEAM USA is creating virtual wind tunnels and towing tanks through computational fluid mechanics tools. Designer Len Imas discusses the use of the different simulation software - RANS (Reynolds-averaged Navier-Stokes) and Lattis Boltzmann methods - in this #TechTuesday feature by Javier Salinas.

This guy is quitte far in that field.

foto-profile6.jpg

Juan Kouyoumdjian

Working for team France now.



#1840 nav

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:32 PM

Who dem?

 

CaYuhLmUUAEEp_u.jpg

 

Craig Maxwell & Mark Czaja from @ParkerHannifin completing safety training before sailing

 

 

Engineers who need to be aboard at times I guess - one of them was featured in a video ^ IIRC



#1841 nav

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:34 PM

CaUsGZCUAAA5hnN.jpg

 

CaUsGbgVAAEE3U9.jpg



#1842 nav

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 07:37 PM

TS sums up the week   https://video-frt3-1...649&oe=56B53502

 

- grinders can only hack 90mins

- racing against OJnr.

- T3 delayed - next week? etc



#1843 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 10:16 PM

Almost sounds like they got their clock cleaned by Draper and co in the shifty conditions he was describing

#1844 ~Stingray~

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 05:38 PM




#TechTuesday: Positioned for performance
OracleRacingTeam
Motion sensing and position sensing is critical for evaluating the performance of our America's Cup boats. Modern technology has resolved positioning and movement to a degree of accuracy that would astonish navigators of old. "We know exactly where we are, we know exactly how fast we are moving and we know exactly how much the boat is accelerating in every axis," says Performance Manager Ian "Fresh" Burns.

#1845 nav

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 06:22 PM

^ Nice....

 

like this - or smaller already?

 

1750-Inertial-Measurement-Unit-300x300.j



#1846 ~Stingray~

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:30 PM

Nice is right. They can resolve the laser/fiber readings to determine position down to 100th of a degree 'due to the earth spinning on its axis'? That's amazing.

Best #TechTuesday so far.

#1847 ncs

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 12:06 AM

Probably several of these, I'm thinking at least three.



#1848 nav

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 10:28 PM

12711090_990287794341600_640110856153557

 

The second shift reports for duty. Crew swap this afternoon on ORACLE TEAM USA as we put in a long Friday on the Great Sound.

 

@facebook



#1849 nav

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 10:33 PM

AC33 - the Jimmy and Joey show

 

https://video-fra3-1...9c7&oe=56BE9B5E



#1850 ~Stingray~

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 07:34 PM



#1851 nav

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:04 PM

CX5LAbLU0AE1LMq.jpg

 

https://www.wisfans.com/oracleteamusa/



#1852 nav

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:17 PM

meanwhile...

 

m673_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_14

 

ORACLE TEAM USA hit another campaign milestone on Monday when the team's third test AC45S test platform was rolled out of the boat shed, christened “Oracle 17”, and lifted into the water for the first time.

The boat had a new wing stepped on the platform and underwent a series of system checks dockside at the team base in Bermuda.

Boat 3 is expected to sail for the first time in the next suitable weather window.

“There is a big step up with this boat in terms of the systems we are developing and now testing in real world use,” says design coordinator Scott Ferguson.

The new America’s Cup Class boats the teams must design, build and race for 2017  need to be entirely manually powered. 

The first two AC45S boats that ORACLE TEAM USA used had partially powered systems to test various components.

However since returning from the Christmas break the crew has been sailing boat two in manual mode.

The systems on board Boat 3 represent another step up in efficiency and effectiveness.

“We think we will see a significant jump in performance with this boat,” said general manager Grant Simmer. “The systems we are testing now will translate directly into the design of the America’s Cup boat we race in 2017.”

ORACLE TEAM USA designers are keeping an eye on the calendar with design deadlines for various components fast approaching.

“The design lock-in dates for the first America’s Cup Class boat are staggered to a certain extent,” Simmer said. “But we are coming up to the time when we need to make some hard decisions.”

-----

Photo: Sam Greenfield/ORACLE TEAM USA - ORACLE TEAM USA's third AC45S test platform is christened "Oracle 17" by team member Luciana Corral.



#1853 ~Stingray~

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:19 PM

Perhaps I am wrong about them building only the one. I guess time will tell, but
--
"The design lock-in dates for the first Americas Cup Class boat are staggered to a certain extent," Simmer said.

#1854 nav

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:25 PM

more to this theme...

 

^^ The first two AC45S boats that ORACLE TEAM USA used had partially powered systems to test various components.

However since returning from the Christmas break the crew has been sailing boat two in manual mode.

The systems on board Boat 3 represent another step up in efficiency and effectiveness.

 

 

from Ky Hurst today

 

 

Its been amazing to see how far we have come as a#team and finally #sailing manual mode getting practice races completed without fail.

 

https://www.instagra.../p/BB5gC7FukyU/



#1855 schakel

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:55 AM

Found on twitter today with the caption:

Lauched B3 straight into the 40kt club today. The new #AC50 wing has some power!! #oracleteamusa #AC50

Attached File  ac 50 wing on ac 45.jpg   101.85KB   7 downloads

 



#1856 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:01 AM

^ Great shot.

 

And also part of the answer about cannibalizing the test boats later.. 



#1857 schakel

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:33 AM

^ Great shot.

 

And also part of the answer about cannibalizing the test boats later.. 

Perhaps exchange parts is technically a more accurate answer.



#1858 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 11:52 AM

'exchanging' something for nothing....... aka cannbalizing

 

 

 

I was referencing this post...

Come to think of it: if the latest Turbos are in fact identical to an AC50 except for hull length, come Jan 2017 even "poor" teams will be able to carry out meaningful two-boat testing. Unless the 50 will be made up of cannibalized Turbo bits ..

 


#1859 Xlot

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 01:45 PM


Look at the caption: AC50 wing on AC45 ...

#1860 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 02:10 PM

^ ??



#1861 schakel

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 02:21 PM

Look at the caption: AC50 wing on AC45 ...

I know, but it sounds like primitive wildmen living far from civilisation.
For the AC I had better hopes. Come to think of it.. Perhaps not.

No it's nonsense, these ac 45 turbo- and sport versions are testplatforms for the new AC 50 technology.

#1862 Xlot

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 03:10 PM

^ ??


The caption (on the Oracle picture) confirms it's a full size AC50 wing

#1863 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 03:29 PM

Found on twitter today with the caption:

Lauched B3 straight into the 40kt club today. The new #AC50 wing has some power!! #oracleteamusa #AC50

attachicon.gifac 50 wing on ac 45.jpg

 

Strange to see such a big jig and such a low profile.



#1864 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 03:49 PM

^ moving towards low fat jibs has been a steady progression for the AC cats



#1865 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 03:50 PM

 

^ ??


The caption (on the Oracle picture) confirms it's a full size AC50 wing

 

 

Obviously. thus the first comment And also part of the answer about cannibalizing the test boats later.. 



#1866 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 04:46 PM

^ moving towards low fat jibs has been a steady progression for the AC cats

Yes pretty much the contrary of what we see on small cats. The question is to know if that is the best general configuration or to optimize the rule, and I would guess it is the second one. The wing is probably doing a better work in the tops, the jib would be flapping, so they use their allowed surface at the bottom.



#1867 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 04:54 PM

Yes and no - the jibs are stipulated in the ACC rule, and a lot more restrictively than area alone

 

i.e.  APPENDIX F - JIB NOMINAL PLANFORM DIMENSIONS



#1868 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 05:37 PM

12715918_993000980736948_587325574080274

 

11845171_993001227403590_376085811071057

 

12710817_993001420736904_370065030067326

 

10626334_993000610736985_461657448210767



#1869 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 05:38 PM

12711239_993598217343891_761786638276783

 

12747343_993597937343919_363998081361001



#1870 ozchrisb

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:04 PM

They stuffed the bows too:
https://www.instagra.../oracleteamusa/

#1871 nav

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:48 PM

:) great perspective... and no wonder they are pleased with the out of the box speed



#1872 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 08:57 PM

Stuffing the bow is definitly the most dangerous problem for a cat, even on foils, at 43 kts and on flat water and easy conditions.

I really think the AC should back to her roots, like rounding Whight island, on the ocean and whatever the conditions, that would make more allaround boats.



#1873 schakel

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:35 AM

Stuffing the bow is definitly the most dangerous problem for a cat, even on foils, at 43 kts and on flat water and easy conditions.

I really think the AC should back to her roots, like rounding Whight island, on the ocean and whatever the conditions, that would make more allaround boats.

I Agree with you on that one,

 

Development of softwings instead of these clumpsy hard wings that has to be hoisted with a crane might ad something positive as well.
Softwings are, just like in the old days, hoisted in the (wing) mast with a halyard. And are lighter!

http://herusails.com...lass-wing-sail/

 

But.. It's to late for that, Perhaps for the ac36 in Toulon is my guess. :D
 



#1874 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 03:57 PM

 

Stuffing the bow is definitly the most dangerous problem for a cat, even on foils, at 43 kts and on flat water and easy conditions.

I really think the AC should back to her roots, like rounding Whight island, on the ocean and whatever the conditions, that would make more allaround boats.

I Agree with you on that one,

 

Development of softwings instead of these clumpsy hard wings that has to be hoisted with a crane might ad something positive as well.
Softwings are, just like in the old days, hoisted in the (wing) mast with a halyard. And are lighter!

http://herusails.com...lass-wing-sail/

 

But.. It's to late for that, Perhaps for the ac36 in Toulon is my guess. :D
 

 

If the cup was held on the ocean, let us say around Ouessant (ushant) in summer without wind limits, that means the wind could be between 0 and 40 kts with variation of 20 kts in the same day. Even if thre rules allowed any rig I am not sure the wing would have to flexibility to be best compromise. In strong conditions the winner would most probably be a soft sail.



#1875 Barnyb

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 08:14 PM

I am just happy they have got the costs down so the likes of TF can participate.

 

I am sure all these test boast, wings, shifting to Bermuda, world series, ... have very little cost and TF are more than comfortable competing against OR on one design boats



#1876 Chainlocker

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 08:53 PM

Watched OR make a couple of high speed passes on the Royal Dockyard webcam earlier. Blistering.
Too bad the cam has such poor resolution and inability to zoom in to the action.
But they sure look fast!

#1877 sclarke

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 09:46 PM

With the whole reduced costs issue, it sure is difficult to see where the costs are reduced? with a 2 boat campaign, you still need at least 10 sailing crew, and thats with no reserves, so probably closer to 13-15 sailing crew, which is around the same as last time. Teams would also need a relatively large shore crew around the same size as last time to launch, modify and maintain two boats, as well as a large - highly paid - design team. A large budget to run the kind of technology being implemented in this cycle, and the resources and ability to build/ purchase modify and maintain at least 3 sail boats (2 AC45 Sport boats + potentially 2 AC class boats), not to mention the support craft teams use to monitor the boats. For the costs involved, maybe the 62 could've been a viable option. Teams like OTUSA, ETNZ, Artemis, Land Rover BAR and Luna Rossa were all committed to the 62. Softbank Team Japan would have no problem coming up with the budget to support a 62 campaign and Team France are really only there to make up numbers. It would've been better for the event to see Luna Rossa compete then either Team Japan or Team France.  



#1878 nav

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 09:53 PM

^

6 crew for each S/T/X boat and same for the ACC/15/49/50.

5 for the ACWS AC45

6 for the RBYAC AC45



#1879 Chainlocker

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:42 PM

Do you really count the RB squads? I do not beleive they are paid crew/employees and in most cases the competing team is partnering with another organization to defer costs.
ETNZ (outside of TILT) has (organizational name may be wrong) New Zealand Yachting as additional support to the program.
The teams obligations to RBYAC are the charter/insurance/branding/soft sails and support boats for the event (if not mistaken and granted these are real costs and hopefully sold for exposure).
If a team internalizes the youth squad and dedicates real budget towards the project, that is extra and not a real part of competing for the America's Cup.

#1880 nav

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:54 PM

^ I wasn't saying anything about the relationships between Team and RBYAC squads, just clarifying crew numbers for each boat type.

 

By the way the RBYAC entry of $40,000 includes $12,000 for a full set of AC45 sails from North (so not an obligation of the AC teams as you stated*), & they are welcome to buy as many more sets as they like.

 

* unless you see the AC Team paying all these costs??

 

Reading between the lines last time it seemed clear that some RBYAC teams selected crew as much on their ability to bring in funding as their sailing skills



#1881 Chainlocker

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:08 PM

I thought that was for additional costs which there are plenty. My understanding (which can always be wrong) is that the "sponsored teams" had access to the AC45's ad part of the package.
What you are saying then is sponsorship is basically, automatic qualification and whatever intellectual contributions the teams want to make?

#1882 Chainlocker

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 12:01 AM

The reasoning being the teams already own the AC45's and are already insured. Adding a rider for the RBYAC would be far less than a stand alone policy for the event, and there would be very little need for the damage bond (liability insurance and bond for self inflicted damage) and of course teams have their own sailmakers/boatbuilders.
The fundraising aspect is a very important part of the education (as I learned many years ago) and the ability to represent sponsors to media and the public. I didn't consider the team sponsorships a "free ride" but a reduced cost advantage. That these sponsored teams would raise money and find sponsors to defer these costs.
It was always assumed by me that personal expenses, insurance and other necessities were the responsibility of the individual participants and/or youth squad as a whole (lodging, transportation, etc.).

#1883 Chainlocker

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 01:47 AM

However, as I read the Notice Of Race and entry requirements, other than the insurance, boat charter and bond is optional to the sponsoring competitor.
So all of the above is somewhat irrelevant.
So I will now shut up.

#1884 mili

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 12:17 PM

12715918_993000980736948_587325574080274

 

11845171_993001227403590_376085811071057

 

12710817_993001420736904_370065030067326

 

10626334_993000610736985_461657448210767

Ha !! no more uPTip foils ???



#1885 nav

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 12:39 PM

The reasoning being the teams already own the AC45's and are already insured. Adding a rider for the RBYAC would be far less than a stand alone policy for the event, and there would be very little need for the damage bond (liability insurance and bond for self inflicted damage) and of course teams have their own sailmakers/boatbuilders.
The fundraising aspect is a very important part of the education (as I learned many years ago) and the ability to represent sponsors to media and the public. I didn't consider the team sponsorships a "free ride" but a reduced cost advantage. That these sponsored teams would raise money and find sponsors to defer these costs.
It was always assumed by me that personal expenses, insurance and other necessities were the responsibility of the individual participants and/or youth squad as a whole (lodging, transportation, etc.).

 

My impression was that the mandatory Youth Teams that got  'adopted' by an AC Team, (or were 'built from the ground up' - as per BDA/OTUSA this time), got as you say the advantage of 'intellectual property' and maybe some extra time in an AC45s.

Possibly the AC Team paid some or all of their fees too??

 

But with RB sponsoring it seemed clear that ACEA wanted the RBYAC as a completely separate 'entity', and that all entries be on the same legal basis, their own sails, bond, insurance et al. They provided the AC45s (demanded from the teams under the Protocol), support boats if needed etc and then 'chartered' these to the Youth Teams, along with some coaching, gym and 'spin'. Any damage would  be made good by the organisers - before the boats were returned to the AC teams.

 

In fact it was the 'coralling' of all the AC45s for preparation by outsiders for the RBYAC that tipped the world to Oracle's cheating.

 

But perhaps it was a bit more haphazard than that for AC34 - and it's just been better codified this time around.

 

Could it in fact have been the uncertainty of the relationship with the 'non-employees' in the 2 Youth Teams, and the resulting fear of litigation, that lead to the breakdown in the relationship that you refer to, between OTUSA and their 'adoptees'?



#1886 Chainlocker

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 01:17 PM

^^ I do not have any proof positive but I have heard that (whether justified or not) there was some paranoia of "loose lips" amoung some of the crews. They may have not even realized they were crossing that barrier if it was true. Bottom line with everything that had happened with B1 and ETNZ flying around the bay, there were some stressful feelings at OTUSA that they were not showing in public.

#1887 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 08:21 PM

12715918_993000980736948_587325574080274

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is not a V (or uptip) foil anymore. Just a big L, like OR1 in the beginning. I guess they have been able to control the stability. I also guess that the prefer to foil ealier in light winds than maximum speed. However this position is probably for a jibe or a tack, later they will rake and cant it, as on the other hull



#1888 ~Stingray~

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 09:29 PM

Would love to see a pic showing the various foil shapes being tested, across teams so far.

It could be that the sets of foils a team builds and actually installs (strictly limited) will include light and heavy air varieties.

I forget, can they somehow 'link' the mains to the rudder rake? If so then that ongoing refinement and learning could lead to board design evolution too.

#1889 nav

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 09:53 PM

^ No adjustment of rudder rake after the 5min gun.

 

Also as you develop better 'self-leveling' control systems you can go for more critical foil shapes

 

Less of the...

 

tractor-with-plough-8.jpg



#1890 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 09:56 PM

Would love to see a pic showing the various foil shapes being tested, across teams so far.

It could be that the sets of foils a team builds and actually installs (strictly limited) will include light and heavy air varieties.

I forget, can they somehow 'link' the mains to the rudder rake? If so then that ongoing refinement and learning could lead to board design evolution too.

For AC50 only, they can do what they want with the Turbos. Correct, they will surely test a few different ones.



#1891 Doug Lord

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:02 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is not a V (or uptip) foil anymore. Just a big L, like OR1 in the beginning. I guess they have been able to control the stability. I also guess that the prefer to foil ealier in light winds than maximum speed. However this position is probably for a jibe or a tack, later they will rake and cant it, as on the other hull

 

 

I put a square up and that foil has a small "uptip" dihedral angle(less than 90 degrees). I asked Tom Speer about an uptip foil working with a straight daggerboard:

 

There are two issues with dihedral on the wing and a straight board. One is you end up with an acute angle between the wing and board, and this can result in more drag at the junction and a lower incipient cavitation speed.

The other issue is it's been found to be more efficient to allow a curved board to generate part of the vertical lift, even though that does result in moving the wing inboard with a loss of righting moment. 
 
And in answer to a another question:
 

This is why an L foil needs to have some dihedral in order to be neutrally stable. The neutral stability dihedral angle is not at 90 degrees, as one might expect. Just what dihedral angle is neutrally stable depends on the planform shapes of the wing and vertical blade, the cant angle of the blade, etc. Designers look at a lot of variations in geometry to explore the tradeoff between stability and drag, and it's not always clear just how stable a given geometry will be until its analyzed.

 

Picture below posted by Tom Speer---straight daggerboard,straight foil@90 degrees:

 

2mgsbb5.jpg



#1892 Xlot

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:14 PM

^ No adjustment of rudder rake after the 5min gun.
 


Is that a fact (for AC35)?

#1893 Doug Lord

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:16 PM

No... rudder rake can be adjusted any time + or - 1.5 degrees(3 degrees total) ON THE AC BOATS-ACWS 45's may be different



#1894 nav

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:32 PM

^ Sorry - I have confused AC45 and ACC 

 

ACC limited to 3° of rudder rake adjustment while racing  (ACC rule 10.4)

 

a token...

clik

Cbwtr6AWwAAp0_-.jpg



#1895 nav

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 11:03 PM

12719548_994895753880804_288040594143503



#1896 maxmini

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 12:08 AM

 

12715918_993000980736948_587325574080274

 

11845171_993001227403590_376085811071057

 

12710817_993001420736904_370065030067326

 

10626334_993000610736985_461657448210767

Ha !! no more uPTip foils ???

 

that went by the way of " wing twist for the win " . At least " wing twist " was an actual term. 



#1897 Doug Lord

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 12:14 AM

Actual term?! Pete Melvin:

 

At Team New Zealand, we developed a new type of foil that allows you to keep your height above the water more or less steady. No one had been able to do that before, [/B]at least not on a course-racing boat that was not going downwind. We developed that mostly on our SL33 test boats -- they came with the stock constant curvature “C” foils and with those kinds of foils, you can generate 50% boat weight lift before they get unstable.  But we noticed that when we could get one boat up fully foiling for a few seconds it would really accelerate away from the other boat – and that got the wheels turning. How, with such a huge potential benefit, can we achieve stable flight downwind? So our design team came up with the “up-tip” type of boards.  We refined those on the 33s and our 72 is designed to do that and fortunately it worked right of the box.



#1898 maxmini

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 03:04 AM

Actual term?! Pete Melvin:

 

At Team New Zealand, we developed a new type of foil that allows you to keep your height above the water more or less steady. No one had been able to do that before, [/B]at least not on a course-racing boat that was not going downwind. We developed that mostly on our SL33 test boats -- they came with the stock constant curvature “C” foils and with those kinds of foils, you can generate 50% boat weight lift before they get unstable.  But we noticed that when we could get one boat up fully foiling for a few seconds it would really accelerate away from the other boat – and that got the wheels turning. How, with such a huge potential benefit, can we achieve stable flight downwind? So our design team came up with the “up-tip” type of boards.  We refined those on the 33s and our 72 is designed to do that and fortunately it worked right of the box.

 

But its missing those cute little caps that a six year old would have added and is two separate words separated by a hyphen as God intended :)

 

BTW Greg Vasileff says hello :)



#1899 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 03:15 AM

12715918_993000980736948_587325574080274

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tom Speer quoted by Doug Lord. The photo shows the application of the theory.

"you end up with an acute angle between the wing and board, and this can result in more drag at the junction and a lower incipient cavitation speed."



#1900 Doug Lord

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 03:26 AM

 

Actual term?! Pete Melvin:

 

At Team New Zealand, we developed a new type of foil that allows you to keep your height above the water more or less steady. No one had been able to do that before, [/B]at least not on a course-racing boat that was not going downwind. We developed that mostly on our SL33 test boats -- they came with the stock constant curvature “C” foils and with those kinds of foils, you can generate 50% boat weight lift before they get unstable.  But we noticed that when we could get one boat up fully foiling for a few seconds it would really accelerate away from the other boat – and that got the wheels turning. How, with such a huge potential benefit, can we achieve stable flight downwind? So our design team came up with the “up-tip” type of boards.  We refined those on the 33s and our 72 is designed to do that and fortunately it worked right of the box.

 

But its missing those cute little caps that a six year old would have added and is two separate words separated by a hyphen as God intended :)

 

BTW Greg Vasileff says hello :)

 

 

UptiP foils are one of the biggest hydrofoil design breakthrus in history-funny how few people even know what to call them. Greg Vasileff? amazing..........






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